Jake Wallis Simons vs Peter Oborne: Should Israel launch an offensive in Rafah?
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- čas přidán 1. 06. 2024
- Rafah is the next frontline in the Israel-Gaza conflict, and now the international community has changed its view on Israel's right to defend itself. Journalists Peter Oborne and Jake Wallis Simons debate how Israel should proceed with its attack on Hamas. Since the IDF's ground invasion, millions of Palestinians have been displaced, with hundreds of thousands killed - have they gone too far?
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Deary me, Peter is unhinged. Happy to believe the word of Hamas but believes nothing from Israel or USA. Well argued, Jake.
Do you believe Israel’s pathological lying?
One side is a bunch of "pathological liars".
Jake is a class act reasonable, Peter is outrageously pro-Hamas.
He's pro-Palestinian civilians, including women and children.
Jake supports Apartheid Israelis genocidal attack and surprise surprise unhinged spectator fan boys applaud him !
Pretending people with opposing views are terrorist sympathisers is plain for all to see when you continue to defend the IDF that has terrorized a population at scale.
The advocate for Israel is correct, informative, and compassionate. Jake you are strong. Thank you.
😂
Sycophantic rhetoric about the bald man being compassionate. 30,000 dead people and thats the best you can come up with..? Joker.
Is there something wrong with Peter Osborn? Is he senile? His reductionist fallacy and fallacy of equivocation is not working for me. Why is he taking the whole issue personally with an emotional outburst like Franklestein and Miko? Has he got a personal vendetta to settle with Israel? Or is he trying to pacify the protected group or Western infiltrators? This is unbelievable!
How come these people who claim to be "concerned about the suffering in Gaza" - never have the slightest concern for the suffering of half a dozen other wars going on right now?
Why do they *only* come out of the woodwork for this particular conflict? Is there something about Israel that particularly bothers them?
Well, that is the interesting thing isn't it. The best thing to do would ask those (like the protestors) who are all upset.
Since, according to the info. I have - more Muslims kill other Muslims, and the Islamic terror groups in Africa sure have a field day murdering Christians, and various other innocents, it would be interesting to pose some questions to those particular people.
We all have a voice, (or, most of us), so I hope people keep dialoguing, and discussing things with people they don't agree with.
Echo chambers are so boring.
What’s the evidence they don’t care? There was so much support and concern for Ukraine for example. Milosovic was tried for war crimes etc.
Bro I think probably YOU don’t care about genocide. Stop projecting 😂
@@fahd6757yes Ukraine, Iraq (2m demonstrating), Saudi, Afghanistan and more. Just an unthinking talking point.
@@fahd6757 The thousands of people protesting every week about the genocides in Syria, Sudan, Nigeria, Yemen....The thousands who demonstrated when ISIS was cutting throats...
The hysterical response to pretending he thinks British forces were being insulted made me cringe.
Disingenuous, IMO he was feeling frustrated & lashed out.
@@aroyaliota Frankly I found them both gross.
Standard tactic of the woke - deliberately misunderstand what you said, and then demand an apology.
@malehumanperson7901 Why do you find both of them gross? Osborn is the only gross person here, trying to force the other person to accept his ridiculous, puerile, unsubstantiated, nonsensical claims.
@@Frost-uy9me. *Oborne
Oborne massively biased again. What a side to choose....
Oborne wins the prize for faux outrage at the suggestion that no elements of the British Army could ever commit any illegal activity.
He's like so many liberals - an overgrown child who lives in a fairyland.
Oborne comes across as your average anti-Semitic leftist intellectual, one you'd typically pick out from the Anglo-European liberal middle class
Antisemitic because he isn’t an Israel war hawk?
Palestinians are infinitely more semitic than Zionist european immigrants to Palestine. But I can see you haven't looked up the word semite in the dictionary yet. The first Israeli knesset in 1948 didn't speak any semitic languages and were forced to learn it or the UN would not be able to accept it as a representative class of people claiming to be semites.
It's fortunate that your kind of argument has been overplayed to the extreme.
Nonsense
@@Crouchy232323 1) Culturespot didn’t make an argument, but a perfectly valid observation.
2) to dismiss any comment for being made too often rather marks you out as a potential flat-earther, as well as a casual anti-semite.
Basing an argument on what’s been seen on TikTok probably won’t age well.
It's wider social media he should've clarified. Turns out there's a shed load of evidence of disgusting dehumanising treatment from the IDF going back years.
Actually it probably will. Israel lost the narrative and that's not changing any time soon.
He (Peter) lost me at “we now know we have around 29,000 dead in Gaza”, where he makes no distinction between terrorists (circa 8-10k, whilst unverified along with civilians). Can’t listen to a chap who just wants to have another attack at one side. This guy is clearly comfortable with Hamas and its intentions. He is part of the problem of causing the antisemitism against Jews in this country alongside other people who are one-sided. Probably for screwed by a Jew some time in his life and holds onto it
_"He (Peter) lost me at “we now know we have around 29,000 dead in Gaza”, where he makes no distinction between terrorists"_
If the IDF doesn't discriminate between terrorists and civilians, how can he be expected to?
Jake is absolutely right.
These Hamas apologists are blind
Ask Peter to
Host Hamas in is home if he loved them that much
Since when do wars stop because a certain threshold of casualties has been reached?
When Israel is involved.
When they're not wars but genocides.
Well, the ICJ has ruled that military operations cannot be construed as demonstrating genocidal intent (Bosnia v. Serbia 2007), so that one's out. @@Cabronosidad
Exactly. World opinion holds Israel to a higher standard than other countries. I wonder why?🤔@@LA19764
@@DisinfoWatch No idea. I haven't studied the case or the issue.
Jake makes sense to me. The press where I live is very pro Hamas.
Jake argues rationally. Osborne flies off the handle, appeals to emotion and relies on Tik Tok. Enough said.
Yes, hard to understand people who see Hamas as freedom fighters. The pro Palestinian protest marches in London seemed to start even before Israel began its offensive . Hamas after all have the same idealogy of ISIS that inspired the Islamic terrorists to kill 3000 on 9/11. Then there are the 50,000 Islamic terror attacks over past 40 years killing an est 210,000 people.Those killed on 9/11 were not just Jews but a whole range of different innocent people from all over the US & the world including many Muslims. In fact Muslims seem to be the main victims of Islam.It is so sad that they are too indoctrinated to see this. Peter is supposed to be a Middle East expert but he seems to be on a different planet than most of us & I wonder what his true agenda really is !
Has Peter ever heard of the bombing of Dresden ?
Peter is ridiculous.
The IDF has conducted press tours of Hamas tunnels. In light of this independent third party confirmation, Peter's claim the IDF's videos of these tunnels are faked is hard to understand.
These are largely bunkers. The fact that you continue to believe in underground tunnel cities reflect on your moral outlook, not his.
Jake Wallis Simons handles interviews admirably. He stays cool while dealing with slurs and worse, and manages to return far more elegant blows, with aplomb. Peter Oborne's sudden reaction seemed oddly out of place, or 'performance' based, rather than in the flow of actual debate. Initially I thought he was teasing. Apparently he believes his own bluster. I assume he writes for The Guardian or The Independent (misnomers both).
Yes, I looked up Peter Oborne on Wiki & it does make interesting reading. One thing amongst others that I noted was that following the scandal in Rochdale about the Muslim grooming gangs he actually blamed the young teenage victims & our decadent society for what happened. I thought maybe he was just a naive humanitarian but maybe he is an Islamist himself ?
What about the hostages?
Gaza Health Authority, you mean Hamas?
Israeli government , you mean white supremacist fascists ?
War against Hamas, you mean a genocide against the Gazans?
30,000 civilians..."you mean Hamas" and Israel wonder why they have no friends.
@@shahzadakram4667They have friends who don't believe "gaza health authority" lies.
@@samuellowekey9271 and believe Bibi s lies! Well done 👏👏👏
It doesn't take long to find evidence of war crimes by British army in its last war, ie Afghanistan. Same with eg Australian army. War is horrible. People are flawed. Noone is perfect. Live in the real world peter. One side tries hard to be as humane as possible. The other is a barbaric as possible
Oborne completely circumvented the pointJake made about Hamas' long term goal of an Islamic Caliphate.
Probably because he knows it's true but was to spineless to acknowledge it.
It's a bit awkward for western wokies to admit they're shilling for a bunch of religious extremists - so they just fudge the issue.
Peter Oborne seems impervious to reason on this topic, Jake Wallis Simons seems a rational man facing an appalling enemy who have almost no common ground with the moral norms of western civilisation.
Nice racism dude
@@crista6899 czcams.com/video/VH3-h44VRrQ/video.html
Nothing to do with the UK really. I think that what UK MPs should concentrate on tackling those who want to make this a major issue in the UK, who want to disrupt our lives by grandstanding on a conflict the UK has zero influence on by holding rallies that just cause a pain to normal people. These people include a huge number of religious sectarians and we know from 30 +years in Northern Ireland what religious sectarianism leads to. Additionally, we should tackle evident racism on the streets of the UK. Since 7 October, there has been a huge uptick in antisemitism, we should be tackling that as unlike Gaza that is something our politicians can do something about. The UK needs to reconsider rules on who can stand at an election. George Galloway is standing in Rochdale, having indicated his only concern, the thing he will spend all his time on is an issue that does not impact upon the safety, wealth and welfare of the people of Rochdale, he is seeking to represent.
Finally as someone who spent over 30 years in uniform as a British Army officer, Oborne's reaction to Jake Wallis Simons comment about TikTok videos was both childish and ill informed in the extreme and simply demonstrates for all his reporting and his family ties he knows nothing about soldiering, nothing about the stress of battle and very little of British Army history. I'm very proud of my service, but I have no illusions about some - a significant minority - and how they behave. To me Oborne's real objection seems to have been a comparison between a British that is largely gentile and Israeli army that is overwhelmingly Jewish and suggesting that Jews are more likely to commit war crimes. There is a term for that - antisemitism.
Well said. 👏🏼
Well spoken Jake.... And good on you for keeping calm.
Peter never mentions that Hamas retains hostages from Israel.
I disagree! I've heard hardly anything condemning hamas's atrocities on Israeli citizens on the 7th Oct by the media! It's all about antisemitism and standing with Palestine. 🇮🇱💙🇬🇧🇮🇱💙
A great discussion, Peter tended to bluster, also seems taken in by the Hamas propaganda,
Always worth watching Spectator TV for the open debate
Seems? He is all in. Stating that the press has been pro-Israel and anti-Palestinian is ridiculous. He mentions a handful of news outlets out of thousands.
No Jake is taken in by the IDF propaganda, Peter didn't defend Hamas once
Why have we not seen this level of faux outrage with other conflicts? Russia / Ukraine for example...
Because Jews aren't involved in all the other conflicts going on around the world! This conflict is all about antisemitism pure and simple.
The whole debate around Gaza often sounds as if people forgot that wars are… bloody and people tend to do awful things during them. I see significantly less outrage and hysteria at wars in Syria and Ukraine
There was plenty of hysteria surrounding the war in Syria, but didn't have as many people protesting because the number of factions involved was too numerous and complicated. In addition the presence of chemical weapons in Syria is something that completely differentiates the moral impetus for the conflict. Dismissing civilian casualties as 'part and parcel of a war' is a very hollow and dismissive position to take. You might think differently if you were on the receiving end of such a policy. As for the Ukraine war, China, India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka and Iran abstained in the U.N votes in order to preserve their good trade relations with Russia, which were very difficult to build since the Red Scare of the 1970s. These three countries alone represent a total of 4 Billion people which is nearly half of current global human population, which might explain why there seems to be less outrage for Ukraine.
@@jacksonfolly I do not wish to diminish the atrocities and casualties of war yet this is the reality of war. To pretend that the army of any country can as a whole behave noble and proper during a war (like one of the speakers) is naive bordering on hallucinating. One needs to also remember that IDF does not deal with an opposing army in this case and one cannot often differentiate between a militant and a civilian on the Palestinian case. Apart from that I would totally agree with you
@@mISSsophisaAbsolutely agree! Hamas are cowards, they won't fight man to man with IDF. They run and hide behind women and children!
In Gaza so far at least 10,000 children were killed in 5 months. In the Ukraine war it was at max 600 during 2 years of war. That alone pretty much explains the difference in hysteria and outrage, don't you think?
@@reinerwilhelms-tricarico344 The conflict in Ukraine did not start 2 years ago. That was what they call 'full scale' invasion. One could argue that the conflict goes back ages, definitely till the nineteenth century and then twentieth century 'Holodomor' which was Soviet-made famine in Ukraine during which between 3.5-7 million Ukrainians died. British journalist discovered it at the time. There's a quite good film about him 'Mr Jones' dir. by A. Holland. Then obviously now we have proves that Russians kidnap Ukrainians children and some of them are already adopted by Russian families, even Putin's close friends. So I wouldn't go and try to get into 'Who suffer most' olympics with Ukrainians...
What a funny guy. He believes to TikTok videos, but not to the IDF’s ones.
What about IDF videos on TikTok
They need to go right to the border then when they’re done,they could fly over here and deal with the humus supporters here aswell seeing as our own police force are so impotent!
Oborne on upper-middle class hand-wringing autopilot.
Poor old Peter Oborne what the hell happened to him
Nothing poor about him.
He isn’t great at putting his point across but is extremely knowledgeable about the inhumanity / genocide being carried out in Gaza by Israel .
@@alistaircroll1036. He hides that “inner depth” totally convincingly. I have rarely seen a better portrayal of shallow and blowhard partisanship
Oborne’s faux-indignation about perceived criticism of British wartime conduct is pathetic.
I am at least AS patriotic as the next man - and FAR more so than Oborne - but you have to recognise that war (as distinct from terrorism) is almost always ugly and brutal, and regrettable things happen on both sides of any conflict.
Oborne insists that both his grandfathers fought in both World Wars. This is clearly a lie on two fronts. Any ancestor old enough to take up active service in WW1 was almost definitionally too old to take up arms in WW2. I am sure that there is some armaments factory, or uniform supplier, or Home-based training or intelligence Regiment that employed Dorset landed gentry - but I would bet serious money that O(s)bornes antecedents never saw the business end of any weapon other than a 12-bore knocking down pheasants on a Sunday morning.
My father, by contrast, saw out a miserable war in Burma and Malaysia.
But to the point, Oborne has been taking Muslim “sponsorship” and proselytising for Islamic objectives for decades! It is absurd to blow the “I love Britain” trumpet, whilst ACTIVELY campaigning for MORE Muslim rights and MORE unintegrated Muslim immigration into a country and a continent which they openly detest and seek to over-run.
To try to balance this by seeming to bristle about comparisons with British bombings of Dresden and Hamburg (vs Gaza), without taking into account the pressures & sensibilities of both late-30’s Europe and 21st Century Middle East is not only facile - but utterly effete and dishonest.
….. Which is of course EXACTLY what observers of Oborne’s hypocrisy have come to expect from him.
_"but you have to recognise that war (as distinct from terrorism) is almost always ugly and brutal, and regrettable things happen on both sides of any conflict."_
Is the distinction between war and terrorism "when we do it" vs "when they do it"?
Such Islamophobic language. You are a true fully paid up member of the Conservative Racist Party! Do you hate Jews as well may I ask or is just one type of religion you espouse hatred towards because of course Muslims have done so many bad things to you?
So condescending! “Pay more attention”, “Educate you a little”, from Mr Oborne. In contrast, rational narrative from Mr Simons. Perhaps “we in Britain” should not be leaving Israel to fight alone?
Where does he get his numbers from?
Literally he gets them from Hamas
This 'debate' is sooo annoying. This is NOT 1945. The nature, ideas and character of the enemy today has completely changed.
Israel has to respond to a totally different situation.
Jake is absolutely right
Why does Oborne, not for the first time, mispronounce the Labour leader's name as 'Schtarmar'. A Freudian slip? But a consistent one. Typical of a certain type of Arabist Englishman I fear.
Peter Oborne has obviously never once set foot inside an army barracks or spent more than two minutes in the company of a squaddie. His faux outrage was perhaps the most ludicrous thing I have ever seen on CZcams.
Thank you Jake, fact and truth will always prevail above the biases of irrational & sentimental rhetoric of armchair observers of a Nation fighting for their very existence.
Oborne's reaction to the reference to the British Army suggests he is on something!
Pride in Britain
It proves he's never read even a single history book if he thinks no British soldier ever did anything ugly.
@@julianshepherd2038 Nope. it simply proves that he has never set foot in an army barracks or spoken to a squaddie.
You bombed 25000 civilians in Dresden. The israeli army is one of the most moral armies in the history of warfare according to your own army. Dont lecture about the British army
So tell Hamas to go out
Peter Osborne made a fool of himself with his outburst. He was “doing a Matt Hancock”. Taking Jakes comment out of context when he knew he was losing the argument.
He held back for too long probably. Listening to the regurgitation of Israeli lies is galling - hard to maintain a reasonable tone against mass murder.
Hamas couldn't rearm via the tunnels without the help of Egypt.
What a good thing is this guy doesn't decide about Israel.
It is not Nethanjahu's war .
It is about Israel survival .
Pity, but he can only destroy Britain , if you let him.
one off them is totally unable to control his anger...and shout very unrespectfully....and it shows his wickness and his real carecter
Wow. I've never come across this Oborne character before. And now having listened to him I can assure myself that his fatuous idiocy is very likely to preceed him should I encounter his juvenile platitutes again
4:00 it will not be more terrible compared to what has occurred already. The same tired arguments of no place to go just to force a cease fire and prevent the defeat of the opponent. I'd much prefer such questions be answered by military personnel than journalists.
Oborne should apologize to the other guy for that pathetic and childish outburst. He controlled his hatred until that point but then lost control.
Britain bombed Dresden has he forgotten?
I have total respect for Peter and Jake makes my stomach churn
Who really is Britain and what is the shift...lastly what does it really matter?
18:22 _don't slag off British forces_
Like the way this outburst was completely ignored by Jake who then went on to say tiktok cannot be the basis for any serious discussion 😊
Peter Oborne is one of the worst interviewees I’ve seen in quite a long time. He’s clearly forgotten the art of debate.
I don't think the child hanging from the roof with her legs blown off was not but horrified.
"the most urgent, the most disgraceful, the most shameful and the most tragic problem is silence."
American Jewish Congress President, Rabbi Joachim Prinz
1963, just before Dr King gave his "I Have A Dream" speech, he said this.
We AMERICANS do not have dual loyalty to Fascist state on the other side of the world. Israel-Palestine could be a single democratic bi-national state for all Israelis and Palestinians, as envisioned by Martin Buber.
Albert Einstein and Martin Buber were right all along, and now the whole world knows it, and it's time to start being honest with ourselves and admit this.
In Martin Buber's Zionism "its desire to live in peace and brotherhood with the Arab people, and to develop the common homeland into a republic in which both peoples will have the possibility of free development."
Shalom from AMERICA
🍉🕎🙏🇵🇸🕊
PS, Stop saying we AMERICANS need a safe place to escape to. That antisemitic dual loyalty trope is pure anti-Jewish bigotry!
I'm told that it's a Mitzvah to remind you that...
WE ARE AMERICANS, NOT FOREIGNERS!
💞🇺🇸🕎🇵🇸🕊
I am offended that this man, Peter oborne is offended for the brits but places the idf, who left their loving wives and children to protect everyone and he compares good family men with hamas.Will oborne. Run away when hamas goes for HIS WIFE AND CHILD? DISGUSTINGLY DECEIVED.! 😮
The Spectator is a rag.
Jake speaks the absolute truth, he knows what's going on!
The world stands with Palestine,fee Palestine
“No fake videos” - what a joke. We have seen the real evidence again and again
Well done the interviewer for putting Jake in his place for not answering any questions about the debate but just spewing his constant
anti Palestinian - Christian’s and Muslims - full of lies rhetoric! 👏👍🏼
Jake told the truth. The man has morals since he backs the IDF and we all can respect that.
Jake who said hed fight for Israel against Britain 😅😅😅😅
Poor delusional Jake.
Spot on Oborne.
The British Army shot dead an un armed Stern leader in Israel. British army soldiers stole alcohol from my grandfather home. Whats he on about
Oh dear, don't invite Peter Oborne again, he doesn't do Spectator's reputation any good.
What so big deal about British army, god send? Don't raise your voice.
Jake Wallis was balanced and thoughtful during this interview.
Long live Palestine 🇵🇸
Wonder what would be the comments by Peter during WW2. Too many NAZIS killed.?
🇵🇸 🇵🇸
Was waiting how long it would take before emotional over talking, shouting and authorative gestures of " im not listening" would take place. 19 minutes. Much better that U.S could ever. The participant engaging in this action didn't surprise though.
Peter Oborne
Why are you saying differently when Batatahu himself said otherwise. Please don't compare with British army. British armies are too decent to compare with IDF😮
There allot debunked stories. lol
Great discussion 👏
Peter ate you impartial ??!!??
Spectator - the opinion of the right wing
Wheres Jason mommas flip flops , he used to wear those everyday for years
O
Talent scouts
He was strikingly good looking
A few low for isreali armies again coming on social media. Liar liar
Is Jake the new IDF mouthpiece? I hear loads have resigned recently, so he must be particularly thick skinned, or more likely just thick.
My other comments got suppressed, but look up the Walk Free Global Slavery Index, there are 5x more slaves today than were trafficked during the entirety of the multi-hundred year trans-atlantic trade. Good day sir.
19:40 the bald dude is so deluded. There is no dealing with people like that…..well there is, but we wont go there..!
Jake is a typical Jew,will not listen to the other side
Unsubscribed because you deleted my comments and not for the first time. Shame you take part in censorship.
Oborne is an appeaser, wast worth the debate.
Jake the ultimate interrupter of interviews. Kate where r u? Kate you have gone AWOL. Out of your depth? Why aren’t u doing what u r paid for that is to chair t interview and to stop Jake spewing inflammatory language.
THERE ARE FAKE VIDEOS
Speccy is nuts.
This peter is spoky😂😂😂
the most grotesque fake videos what about the list
Why everyone hatred Jewish ✡️ my son married a woman Jewish they good people they are very Religious they loved God and j Jesus christ the war always had civilians died When Germany American Britain and Russia Ukraine I believed they have more people died why United Nation blame only Israeli not Russia we bunches racist over Jewish I'm praying Isreal is chili's of God
Oborne gets news from TikTok.
This war did not start on Oct 7th.
Such irrespinsible disengenousness. There's another word for that.
Israel gave control of gaza over to Egypt in 2005! Because it was to much trouble for them. Israel also gave Gaza billions of dollars in aid in 2005, for them to build their own modern infrastructure, hospitals and schools! But instead hamas was voted in power by the Palestinian population and they spent the money on buying weapons and building tunnels in order to eliminate the Jewish people. Keep in mind also that Palestine was only created between 1948 and 1967 by Jordan and Egypt respectively! And the people of Palestine are made up of Egyptians, North Africans and jordanians.
Peter Oborne being a reasonable journalist..Good for him!