Etymology of "Sionnach" (Fox) in Irish (Gaelic) & some Proto--Indo-European & Celtic sound-changes
Vložit
- čas přidán 7. 09. 2024
- All credit for etymology of "sionnach" goes to Professor David Stifter. Corrections and elaborations welcome.
Ceartughcháin/Corrections:
As regards the historical nominative “Siona” (with “dative” Sionainn now as nominative mostly, and genitive Sion(n)ainne), I forgot that Professor Stifter starts the genitive from “*senūnos”, but I am unable to explain why the genitive should contained ū since Szemerényi’s Law/Lengthening (where “word-final short vowel + sonorant (r/l/n/m…) + fricative (s/h1/h2/h3))” became long vowel + sonorant, e.g. ons » *-ōn [oː]) should not have occurred in genitive *senonos since the n-stem genitive *-on-os (which I would expect according to my limited knowledge) does not have the sequence of “word-final vowel + sonorant + fricative”, since the sonorant is immediately followed by a vowel and only then fricative *-s. I suspect analogy from another case (presumably nominative) caused this -ū in the genitive, but it is very likely that I am wrong. In any case, the modern word “Siona/Sionann/Sionainn/etc” underwent at least one analogical change during the “flow” (…) of time, whether modern or “old”…
Just wanted to say keep these up! They're all super informative and I love the tangents, so much to be learned there.
Thug senpai fé ndeara me! Agus tá fuaimniú m’ainmse ana-mhaith agat! (ach ba chóir don bhéim bheith ar shiolla eile)
Ní mór dom rud éigin suimiúil eile do cheapadh anois ⁊ teachtaireacht leis do scríobh chun físeáin eile a dh’fháil uait comh tapaidh sin aríst. :D
This could be a good new formula. One video - concise, on topic and on point. Then spin-off videos like this to cover the tangents.
yessssssss a forest of linguistic fun 🌱🌳🦊🌳
Ó bhabh, comhghairdeachas leat! Go raibh míle maith agat as an sanasaíocht agam a chur i bhfíseán.
Á, go roıḃ míle maıṫ ogat as dul ı dteangaṁáıl lıom!
Coṁġaırdeaċas leat-sa as préaṁ an ḟocaıl ‘o ṙéıḋteaċ, agus mo ṡeaċt leaṫ-scéal leat as puırseaċ (nú “(red) dog’s dinner”) agus Scéal Ṁadra (Ruaḋ!) na nOċt gCos ‘o ḋéanaṁ den sanasaıġeaċt ċéadna, agus as í ‘o ċur as a rıoċt ı ḃfoırm físeáın!
N’ḟeadar cad fé ndeara scrıosaḋ do ṫeaċtaıreaċtaí aċ táım t’r éıs “úsáıdeóır ceaduıġṫe” ‘o ḋéanaṁ díot a-nıs - b’ḟéıdır go n-eíreóġaḋ led ċéad ıarraċt eıle. Is deárṫaċ na fuıl teaċt ogam oır na teaċtaıreaċtaí eıle ‘o scríoḃaıs ċuġam, fa-ríor!
@@AnLoingseach mo ṡeaċt leaṫ-scéal leat as [ sin 'please forgive me' as Béarla nach ea? Agus 'seacht' (seven) mar intensifier? Sin atá ins an rud sin a b'ea? ]
Great to see another video so quickly! These are fantastically interesting and useful. Please do make more. Go raibh míle maith agat!
It's funny how I'd not be even half way to fluency but I'd understand sionnach and also madra rua as meaning fox. I'm trying to think if they taught us both at school or whether I picked it up at some other stage. Really interesting videos though. I'm glad I found your youtube!
I will give it another try: the reason why genitive *senonos becomes *senūnos > *sinūn is a bit more complicated. It is analogy ot the nominative alright, but I have argued elsewhere that the analogy is specifically motivated by animacy, i.e. that in Proto-Celtic (or the prehistory of Irish) the ablaut degree of the nominative was introduced into oblique cases in words which refer to terms for human beings. The implication is, of course, that "the old one" was conceived of as a quasi-human being.
I have written about this in an article entitled "Lack of Syncope and other nichtlautgesetzlich Vowel Developments in OIr. Consonant-Stem Nouns. Animacy Rearing its Head in Morphology?"
Which you can find on my academia account. I will try to give the address in another comment.
I hope this stays now,,,
Okay, the link has been removed again.
@@davidstifter849 Oh, so early Goidelic (/late western dialect of Insular-Celtic?) would have *senū, gsg. *senūnos, but Proto-Celtic (and early Proto-Insular) still *senonos? Does that imply *senūnākos is a late formation or at least levelled to *senū(nos) from PC. *senonākos in late (post-Goidelic-Brythonic-split) times?
Also, it being animate/human makes sense, Slavic words like Czech stařec, Polish starzec, staruch also are human/animate meaning ‘old-man’ (but there also exists Polish inanimate staroć ‘an old thing, item’).
A rare treat from a rare scholar.
Please do make more videos, it's so helpful to learn the proper way Irish words are pronounced. And the history of sounds and grammar is so interesting! Tá sé an-suimiúil! Keep making more, le do thoil. Is breá liom iad. Go raibh maith agat.
The deep [χ] sound in North Wales. As you go further south in Wales, it weakens = [X], continuing to Cornwall [h] and Brittany. And it even turns to F in one dialect.
Go raibh míle maith agat! You’re videos are amazing, your channel truly is a gem for Irish learners. I wanted to ask if you knew anything about Kildare Irish? I believe it had features not found in either Munster, Ulster nor Connacht Irish, maybe it was part of Leinster Irish with Dublin? The Sallins-Naas-Kill area and somewhere around Maynooth were the two last areas where the local Irish was natively spoken in Kildare and I’d love to know more about it!
Diolch yn fawr iawn. Diddorol iawn.
Intend to learn Irish Gaeilge.Much inspiration here.
Will you make a video about the number systems. I thought all Celtic languages had a vigesimal system, but somehow Old Irish had a decimal one, that is so confusing...
Is there a relationship between Soinnach, Soinann/Shannon and the name Seanan as they all refer to as "old" or "wise" and also refer to places/rivers, yet i often see the name boys name Senan as being a dimmunitive of John which doesnt make sense chronologically as John is from Latin.
The older form of 'nn' in Old Irish was 'nd' as in sinnach>sindach (fox),
in finn>find (white) and in grenn>grend (beard).
You wrote senunakos as 'the old one', perhaps you can also use the word
senakos/sennakos as the old one, also sendach>sendakos
Idk if he mentions it in the vid, but Sinach (pronounced Shinach), is one of many Welsh words for 'rascal' or cruel person too. Wonder if it was a borrowing from Irish, because Welsh doesn't really like to start words with a sh sound🤔
Hiya, asking this based on previous pronunciation video, but asking here, the most recent video. What's the best way for a language learner (currently in 5th year!) to improve pronunciation? Thanks a million for all the videos, very interesting and helpful.
Do you the 'etymology' or history of the pronunciation of the letter 'n' as an R in some areas of irish? I cannot find any resources which explain the history of this but find it interesting.
I've wondered about this too, I figured it's down to the tendency to shorten or glide over consonants. the n can be slid back and forth a bit without making you sound too weird and at some point the finishing motion of the tongue can have a tapped r merged in because it's already in basically the position that makes an r when you tap or roll the tongue. It feels to me like the preasure released could also be used to stress the next vowel.
I don't know for sure, I'm just figuring off of how it sounds and feels when I imitate how I've heard it
Pure guesswork on my part, but wouldn’t sionnach, ‘shunna, shunnoch’ be linked to Fr chien, and possibly hond, hund, hound.
And would madra ‘modda vodda’ somehow transmogrify in the distant past into ‘vogga or vocha/ vucha’ sounds for dog and fuchs, fox.
No
Cad the fox
24:32
.....throughout, I see what appear to be a LOT of Cyrillic suffixes / letter usages (Western / Greek 'os', Eastern / Romanian 'nu', Middle 'ach/t' - and the interesting 'on' / 'un', evoking not JUST ancient Greek but, Egyptian ones as well) while the implied root 's[h]' (as in, 'Sumerian, 'Semite') is inarguably Indo-European.....
Okey, so my mind is blown. I'm a swede, ended up here via a tour of searching for a good name for a D&D-character that is supposed to be a fox, set in a world very much inspired by celtic culture (the romantic, very shallow version of it), and so ended up here. And I hear this man speak irish (?) and all I can hear is finnish (I don't speak it at all, I'm only a neighbour that've heard words and phrases of finnish throughout my life).
Is irish and finnish related?! Finnish is of the finnish-ungerian language tree, to my knowledge, but wtf, it sounds just like it! O_o
Or...or is this guy finnish? Or hungarian? I am simply very confused. X)
Anyone care to explain? =)
Ana-thapaidh!! Go hiontach!!
No help from Welsh cognates in this case.
It’s ‘llwynog’ in north Wales - meaning ‘bushy’!
And ‘cadno’ in south Wales.
S>ll is no stretch phonetically just move the tongue forward a wee bit.
i > ui( phonetic spelling of wy in IPA tables for Cymraeg ) is no stretch either.
Ach > og also is very similar phonetically with ch > g both sounding at the back of the throat.
Even the CVCVC lines up in both words. Welsh may be of no help with cognates but does show a connection between both words and ultimately both languages. Hwyl.
@@gandolfthorstefn1780 But there is no connection besides a coincidence of sounding vaguely similar. The video is about the etymology of the word.
go raibh maith a'aaaaaat❣
Does the Welsh word "shinach" (in the sense of a nasty or unpleasant man) come from "sionnach"? Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru doesn't have anything to say about it one way or the other, but it would make saying things like "yr hen shinach" an interesting example of tautology according to this etymology.
@garethjh54
I think Welsh sinach just comes from its primary meaning i.e a thin strip of wasteland at the edge of a field. The implication being that the person is likewise worthless, mean, and a waster.
Ah interesting. I must admit I hadn't come across the primary meaning.
Ba cheart duit na ceachtanna a chur ar fáil i nGaeilge. Ní gá go mbeadh siad fada. Níl de dhíth ach míniú gonta ar gach fuaim. Tá siad de dhíth ar ghaelscoileanna agus ar ollscoileanna.
An ndéanann tú ceachtanna 1:1 Gaeilge?
People came here to learn Irish language, I came here to learn Irish accent.
I have twice written an "answer" to my own message, with more information, but the message seems to get eaten.
I had the same problem in the previous video when I tried to link your tweet with the etymology - CZcams immediately removed my comments, probably classifying them as spam because of the link. :(
If you link any stuff, try removing the links and perhaps use different wording to please the automatic (non)intelligence guarding the comments section.
@@benedyktjaworski9877 Yes, that seems to be the problem. I have written it a third time as an independent comment, and again it vanished.
I give up, vanished for the 4th time, even though I did not include a link... 😞
It seems my comments must still be there somewhere, because at the top of the page it says that there are 14 comments, but only 10 can be seen. The invisible ones must by my vanished ones. Maybe AnLoingseach can make them appear?
0:14 Sionnach = Fox
A slight deviation from your subject.....the old writing of gaeilge thatI was taught as a small child in the 1950’s was elegant and beautiful aand was replaced with such an ugly imposter . I still bemoan the cowardly murder of the sean-chló . What do you think?
Iontach ar fad, ana shuimiúil. Bhíos ag éisteacht le rud éigint ar an dteilifís sa tSualainnis cúpla lá ó shin, dúirt siad ¨yaaara¨ an rud céanna ¨dheara¨ nach ea?!