Good day. I've seen a few of your videos but so far I thought this was the best one. I sort of figured out why My Denon is that way but you provided me with a bit more clarity. Well done young man.
I got a refurbished Marantz SR 6014. It was all positive values. I've now changed it to reflect negative values with a max level of zero, so that nobody can turn the volume up past reference. Good thing too, since I find him really comfortable listening at about negative 15
Well, it depends. If the material you are listening to is 10db below the 0db mark (this is not the volume, but the waveform itself in the digital file) You can safely run your AV at +10db. Amplifiers don't have volume control. They just get voltage X (from the dac) and put out voltage Y which is amplified. Clipping is done when the input voltage is soo high that the output can't amplify that much and just "clips" the top and bottom of the signal. You can have clipping in the DAC itself too. DACs also have a maximum voltage they can operate at. You can have a song or a movie mixed at 20db under the clipping point. So turning the AV from 0db to +10db won't result in clipping, because the input V is low. Example. Watch TENET at -10db. Then switch to a Disney movie. You will hear that the Disney movie is too quiet, compared to TENET. Well TENET is mixed to the clipping point, while almost all Disney movies are mixed 5 to 10db below the clipping point. So final answer is "Yes" you can damage speakers if you turn it above 0db. (positives db values), but also "No" because it depends on material. Bonus: i actually used an oscilloscope to check on my denon AVR where does the LFE signal clips. I played a 40hz sine wave at -3db (because audacity clips for some reason if you play it at 0. My sub trim was at 0db. I turned the volume slowly to +12db, and observed the sine wave. I think i was getting above 2 volts of signal and the signal was perfect, no clipping at all. I couldn't actually make the signal clip. But my amplifier can take no more than 0.75v of input voltage. So even if i can have a clean AF LFE at +12db, the DAC inside the subwoofer amplifier will clip.
Another great video which prompts a subscription and one more newby question. I used the calibration microphone when setting up my new Klipsch/Jamo 5.0 system. It automatically put individual speaker volumes as follows: the Klipsch loudspeakers at a negative volume (-4) and the Jamo center speaker at +6 and the Jamo wall sides at the maximum +10. I thought this would be hard on the receiver so I reduced the volume of each speaker by 5dB. The overall volume is low for normal listening at -40dB and loud at -20dB with speakers set lower individually. Are these good volume settings for my receiver so it doesn’t fry prematurely? Thanks again!
This was cute. But. I don’t ever go to reference level on my receiver. Never. For one thing. I don’t have the space for it. Another thing. I don’t wanna damage my equipment. Or my hearing. I typically keep my receiver volume at -40 to -35. Depending on the source.
My wife goes to reference level and plays old school rap with the windows open 😳, I know cause I come home on my lunch and I can't turn it down. At least I know it sounds good and her excuse is " I have to hear the neighbors dogs bark all day so they can hear my music all day" lol
Pioneer elite vsx-lx303 is negative value to zero, then goes to +16db. Pioneer elite vsx-44 is positive values only. I prefer the negative values, I tell the kids is a countdown until you hurt the radio, they don't usually make it above -35db anyways lol
Reference is 115 decibels. When watching a movie if you’re volume is set at “-10” then you should be at a PEAK of 105 decibels of loudness. Usual dialogue is much lower than this. But an explosion would be really loud for effect of the movie. It’s based on the movies sound mixer guy. Notice when you listen to music at the same number of volume it’s much louder. Music is generally “pushed” to the peak. Assuming your receiver can actually power the speakers to a reference loudness. It may not have enough wattage.
Have the volume set at 0db with nothing playing, change it over to read positive. Remember what the volume number changes to and just never go above that. The numbers reading backwards just seems weird to me🤷🏼.
TIP: Some receivers allow you to limit your max level, for ease for non AV people to use in your household I would just determine the number level associated with 0dB and set that as the max numbered level the receiver is allowed to reach therefore not being able to turn it up passed reference level. Thanks for the info :)
Love your videos.. I have a Denon x4200w. How do I manually calibrate without using the audyssey? I have an app on my phone to set it to 75 or 80db. The problem is if I set my receiver to 0db and start the test patterns there's no sound. I have to turn up the volume on my main volume to hear anything. I have a 7.2.4 Dolby Atmos system with reference Klipsch speakers. Help! Nick
Good video. I m using Yamaha HTR 3072 AVR. Master volume 0 not giving any effect on SPL METER. I should set MV 70 than only SPL meter start working. Pl reply n suggest.
I stay between -35 to -30 perfect for music movies and sports. I find though that anything through my chromecast netflix amazon and you tube sounds too loud between-35 and -30
Found a better explanation in my opinion: "Think of 0 dB as maximum volume. For example, if your receiver reads “-25 dB” it means that the volume of the signal has been attenuated by 25 dB (that is, made 25 dB quieter than the loudest it could possibly be) before being output to your speakers." It do not need to be more complicated than that.
@@Kpaceguy No difference. Just the different words you say "minus/negative" that do not tell ME what is going on. Because I can also see the minus sign. lol But I understand -25 dB is that the level/volume is 25 dB IS "attenuated" from the max volume/reference level at 0 dB. Thanks for the video!
So I have a 2005 Sony Muteki 7.2ch system and I've tried everything but it does not do negative levels. Do I just use the front channels of which have a fixed preset level as the reference volume and turn the whole system up until it hits 80db? Cheers
Ai! This reference level thing is all confusing for me. My Onkyo NR-686 runs from “Minimum” (I take it that’s 0 db), and goes all the way up to 100db. I have set my volume level limit at 65db, that’s the loudest I allow my Receiver to play. Not sure if that helps?😕
I have the same receiver and it’ll tell you that your in reference level once you go to 82 believe. You can also change it, Relative or Absolute. Mines on Absolute. Can’t stand the negative lol
@@JollyGiant1213 Didn't even know about absolute or relative😃. Do you play it that loud, like 82db?😯 I've never gone past 65db since I bought my Receiver in 2019.
@@Turtleback8024 Same here bought it back in 2019 with an awesome Best Buy sale of $250 plus tax. I would never in a million years play it that loud lol. Yea I think 65 is the loudest I would go too
Relative scale (half empty) vs absolute scale (half full). It’s just a way of looking at it. Just know, that when you engage the speaker level test tone it’s going to adjust the receiver volume to reference. Make sure all individual speaker Channels are turned down to flat before you calibrate each speaker using your spl meter. The key is just knowing the volume number that represents the peak level. So if 80 is the reference number chosen by your receiver once the test tone engages then, I don’t turn your receiver up past that point. Playing anything at the 75db or 80db range will probably result in hearing loss anyway.
hi i have a onkyo avr with ref level from 0 to 15db , ive notice the higher ref level sounds more tighter 0n 15db than 0db witch sounds overwelming. my active sub is a svs pb1000 with a frequency response 0f 19-270hz at plus minus 3db. does that mean my subwoofer will reach that frequency if i set my ref level at 5db?
I don't know what volume the sub needs to be for reference level but if it's outputting the same volume as the rest of the system It'll be at reference when the rest of the system is
so should i leave it at 0db . i only have the options of 0db. 5db . 10db and 15db. in many reviews including yours where you say its the savest to stay below 0db . but at 0db on my onkyo tx nr 525 the sound is very full some times overwhelming. when i increase the ref db level to 10db its sound much more tighter and controlled. so confusing
in the Manuel onkyo states on 0db is ideal for movies. 5db os for classical music . 10db jazz music ect. 15db for fast pitch music like rap . rock . disco ect. still dont understand but thanks very much man
I always play at Dolby Ref 85dB = 7 on the fader often can be loud and exciting on the JBL cinema professional czcams.com/video/HnVCP77Pi0A/video.html Oh the volume scale... 80.0 is Ref 0dB and yes can be little confusing which is why I keep it at dB scale setting.
@@Kpaceguy but I read more than once that reference is the db level that audio people listen to a movie when mixing it and it’s also the volume that commercial theatres use.
On a 0 - 100 scale, reference level is in 99% cases between 75 and 80. Never go above 80 and you are done! 🙂👍 PS In Europe noone uses negativ db scale, that's an American thing. 🙂
We use the Negative DB Scale in here in Australia & probably also in the UK being that 99% of our Australian measurements & standards transferred over from the UK
It's volume matched during Calibration so it doesn't too much matter. It'll be at reference when you're receiver is. But because it has its own amplifier you can turn it up to your liking.
First time im first
Let's pin your comment to the top!
@@Kpaceguy thanks man your the best
Good day. I've seen a few of your videos but so far I thought this was the best one. I sort of figured out why My Denon is that way but you provided me with a bit more clarity. Well done young man.
I appreciate it. Thank you for watching
Love the background music! Great information thanks for sharing!
Thanks for watching!
I got a refurbished Marantz SR 6014. It was all positive values.
I've now changed it to reflect negative values with a max level of zero, so that nobody can turn the volume up past reference.
Good thing too, since I find him really comfortable listening at about negative 15
Great update..u just talk me something I couldn't figure out..how to convert my volume to show negative value DBs....think you
Well, it depends.
If the material you are listening to is 10db below the 0db mark (this is not the volume, but the waveform itself in the digital file) You can safely run your AV at +10db.
Amplifiers don't have volume control. They just get voltage X (from the dac) and put out voltage Y which is amplified. Clipping is done when the input voltage is soo high that the output can't amplify that much and just "clips" the top and bottom of the signal. You can have clipping in the DAC itself too. DACs also have a maximum voltage they can operate at.
You can have a song or a movie mixed at 20db under the clipping point. So turning the AV from 0db to +10db won't result in clipping, because the input V is low.
Example. Watch TENET at -10db. Then switch to a Disney movie. You will hear that the Disney movie is too quiet, compared to TENET. Well TENET is mixed to the clipping point, while almost all Disney movies are mixed 5 to 10db below the clipping point.
So final answer is "Yes" you can damage speakers if you turn it above 0db. (positives db values), but also "No" because it depends on material.
Bonus:
i actually used an oscilloscope to check on my denon AVR where does the LFE signal clips.
I played a 40hz sine wave at -3db (because audacity clips for some reason if you play it at 0.
My sub trim was at 0db.
I turned the volume slowly to +12db, and observed the sine wave.
I think i was getting above 2 volts of signal and the signal was perfect, no clipping at all. I couldn't actually make the signal clip.
But my amplifier can take no more than 0.75v of input voltage. So even if i can have a clean AF LFE at +12db, the DAC inside the subwoofer amplifier will clip.
i took a shower and i though of better examples! If anyone wants to better understand reference level.👀
Thanks bro.
Keep up the good job👍
Thank you
Another great video which prompts a subscription and one more newby question. I used the calibration microphone when setting up my new Klipsch/Jamo 5.0 system. It automatically put individual speaker volumes as follows: the Klipsch loudspeakers at a negative volume (-4) and the Jamo center speaker at +6 and the Jamo wall sides at the maximum +10. I thought this would be hard on the receiver so I reduced the volume of each speaker by 5dB. The overall volume is low for normal listening at -40dB and loud at -20dB with speakers set lower individually. Are these good volume settings for my receiver so it doesn’t fry prematurely? Thanks again!
It'll be fine how you set it
This was cute. But. I don’t ever go to reference level on my receiver. Never. For one thing. I don’t have the space for it. Another thing. I don’t wanna damage my equipment. Or my hearing. I typically keep my receiver volume at -40 to -35. Depending on the source.
My wife goes to reference level and plays old school rap with the windows open 😳, I know cause I come home on my lunch and I can't turn it down. At least I know it sounds good and her excuse is " I have to hear the neighbors dogs bark all day so they can hear my music all day" lol
Thanks for this. If this is your succession plan the student/candidate is slacking.
Your wife is funny 😂😂😂 awesome video. I was always wondering there’s a setting called reference or flat don’t you turn them off?
Lol I'm not married. I live alone
@@Kpaceguy no way 😭 y’all look neat together. but been a fan of your content over 4 year’s now
I appreciate you sticking around man
@@Kpaceguy apparently not all the time😅🤣😂
@@keepingupwiththejones2933 😂😂
Pioneer elite vsx-lx303 is negative value to zero, then goes to +16db. Pioneer elite vsx-44 is positive values only. I prefer the negative values, I tell the kids is a countdown until you hurt the radio, they don't usually make it above -35db anyways lol
Reference is 115 decibels. When watching a movie if you’re volume is set at “-10” then you should be at a PEAK of 105 decibels of loudness.
Usual dialogue is much lower than this. But an explosion would be really loud for effect of the movie. It’s based on the movies sound mixer guy. Notice when you listen to music at the same number of volume it’s much louder. Music is generally “pushed” to the peak. Assuming your receiver can actually power the speakers to a reference loudness. It may not have enough wattage.
Have the volume set at 0db with nothing playing, change it over to read positive. Remember what the volume number changes to and just never go above that. The numbers reading backwards just seems weird to me🤷🏼.
Not a bad idea
TIP: Some receivers allow you to limit your max level, for ease for non AV people to use in your household I would just determine the number level associated with 0dB and set that as the max numbered level the receiver is allowed to reach therefore not being able to turn it up passed reference level. Thanks for the info :)
Thanks for watching
Great content, yamaha reciever rx-4a, its all in negative db. Negative to zero for me
What is meant when speaker manufacturers market speakers at reference? Like the KEF Reference series for example?
Just a make companies use to name their speaker line
Love your videos.. I have a Denon x4200w.
How do I manually calibrate without using the audyssey? I have an app on my phone to set it to 75 or 80db. The problem is if I set my receiver to 0db and start the test patterns there's no sound.
I have to turn up the volume on my main volume to hear anything. I have a 7.2.4 Dolby Atmos system with reference Klipsch speakers.
Help!
Nick
Run it first then use the app to change what you want
Good video. I m using Yamaha HTR 3072 AVR. Master volume 0 not giving any effect on SPL METER. I should set MV 70 than only SPL meter start working. Pl reply n suggest.
Need a better solution Meter or check how you have it set
I stay between -35 to -30 perfect for music movies and sports. I find though that anything through my chromecast netflix amazon and you tube sounds too loud between-35 and -30
Found a better explanation in my opinion:
"Think of 0 dB as maximum volume. For example, if your receiver reads “-25 dB” it means that the volume of the signal has been attenuated by 25 dB (that is, made 25 dB quieter than the loudest it could possibly be) before being output to your speakers."
It do not need to be more complicated than that.
I'm not so sure this is any different than what I said lol
@@Kpaceguy No difference. Just the different words you say "minus/negative" that do not tell ME what is going on. Because I can also see the minus sign. lol
But I understand -25 dB is that the level/volume is 25 dB IS "attenuated" from the max volume/reference level at 0 dB.
Thanks for the video!
@@AmazonasBiotop thanks for watching
I heard -18 is good to use....when I go to -18 it brings Me in red
So I have a 2005 Sony Muteki 7.2ch system and I've tried everything but it does not do negative levels. Do I just use the front channels of which have a fixed preset level as the reference volume and turn the whole system up until it hits 80db? Cheers
You can assume 80% volume is reference level and go from there
My Yamaha a2080 was already in negative DB right out of the box .
That's what I like to hear
Ai! This reference level thing is all confusing for me. My Onkyo NR-686 runs from “Minimum” (I take it that’s 0 db), and goes all the way up to 100db. I have set my volume level limit at 65db, that’s the loudest I allow my Receiver to play. Not sure if that helps?😕
That'll work
@@Kpaceguy Thanks man.👍
I have the same receiver and it’ll tell you that your in reference level once you go to 82 believe. You can also change it, Relative or Absolute. Mines on Absolute. Can’t stand the negative lol
@@JollyGiant1213 Didn't even know about absolute or relative😃. Do you play it that loud, like 82db?😯 I've never gone past 65db since I bought my Receiver in 2019.
@@Turtleback8024
Same here bought it back in 2019 with an awesome Best Buy sale of $250 plus tax. I would never in a million years play it that loud lol. Yea I think 65 is the loudest I would go too
I have a Denon and I'm not in the negative levels I have zero to 98 I set speaker levels to 75 DB I thought that was reference level or am I wrong
Relative scale (half empty) vs absolute scale (half full). It’s just a way of looking at it. Just know, that when you engage the speaker level test tone it’s going to adjust the receiver volume to reference. Make sure all individual speaker Channels are turned down to flat before you calibrate each speaker using your spl meter. The key is just knowing the volume number that represents the peak level. So if 80 is the reference number chosen by your receiver once the test tone engages then, I don’t turn your receiver up past that point. Playing anything at the 75db or 80db range will probably result in hearing loss anyway.
When being negative is good.
I keep my Pioneer AvR between -35 or -30
hi i have a onkyo avr with ref level from 0 to 15db , ive notice the higher ref level sounds more tighter 0n 15db than 0db witch sounds overwelming. my active sub is a svs pb1000 with a frequency response 0f 19-270hz at plus minus 3db. does that mean my subwoofer will reach that frequency if i set my ref level at 5db?
I don't know what volume the sub needs to be for reference level but if it's outputting the same volume as the rest of the system It'll be at reference when the rest of the system is
so should i leave it at 0db . i only have the options of 0db. 5db . 10db and 15db. in many reviews including yours where you say its the savest to stay below 0db . but at 0db on my onkyo tx nr 525 the sound is very full some times overwhelming. when i increase the ref db level to 10db its sound much more tighter and controlled. so confusing
@@angelojordaan545 on the sub it doesn't matter as much since it has its own amplification
in the Manuel onkyo states on 0db is ideal for movies. 5db os for classical music . 10db jazz music ect. 15db for fast pitch music like rap . rock . disco ect. still dont understand but thanks very much man
Never new this and now I no... Thanks
Yes sir!
Damn what a coincidence, I was just looking for reference level information
Spoke it into existence
@@Kpaceguy how much dB is reference? I know THX says 85 dB, but Dolby says something lower because of the additional atmos speakers
It's complicated. About 85db but there is headroom to go louder
@@Kpaceguy 85 dB with a 20 dBfs pink noise right? I think the one in AVR’s is 30 dBfs
20 to 30 sounds about right
I think you should worry more about blowing out your ear drums🤯
I always play at Dolby Ref 85dB = 7 on the fader often can be loud and exciting on the JBL cinema professional
czcams.com/video/HnVCP77Pi0A/video.html
Oh the volume scale... 80.0 is Ref 0dB and yes can be little confusing which is why I keep it at dB scale setting.
New kpace girl I see lol
So I can put my avr volume to 0 and it won’t harm my speakers. But how does my avr know what speakers I have and if they can handle that volume?
It doesn't. You have to know your speakers limits and how close to max volume it can handle. Usually your speakers can handle more than you can anyway
Ok so 0 is the volume that the AVR can handle without clipping right. I think that’s what you said
@@velocci6666 you got it. Any higher and you start to introduce distortion. It's a tad more complex but that's the gist
@@Kpaceguy but I read more than once that reference is the db level that audio people listen to a movie when mixing it and it’s also the volume that commercial theatres use.
It's a complex thing. There's a slightly deeper meaning to it all but you got the gist of it
Don't wanna blow prematurely.
You won't if you're crossovers are set right
On a 0 - 100 scale, reference level is in 99% cases between 75 and 80. Never go above 80 and you are done! 🙂👍
PS In Europe noone uses negativ db scale, that's an American thing. 🙂
Wow that's pretty interesting
We use the Negative DB Scale in here in Australia & probably also in the UK being that 99% of our Australian measurements & standards transferred over from the UK
What about reference level of the active subwoofer ?
It's volume matched during Calibration so it doesn't too much matter. It'll be at reference when you're receiver is. But because it has its own amplifier you can turn it up to your liking.
@@Kpaceguy thanks a lot 👍
so I guess I fix the levels from the red
Btw im not at a negative value on my onkyo tx nr 696
Same here! My 686 is on positive, running from ‘minimum’ to 100db. I’ve just set my volume level limit at 65db due to the size of my lounge area.
@@Turtleback8024 nice
Kpace u know darn well most women dont care about that stuff 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
You are correct lol but my luck one woman will watch and rip me a new one because I only focus on the men
This video should have been made a long time ago it is a game changer
Haha thank you