Over the years ive built a lot of guitars but the one that makes me most proud still is the guitar i built for my father that has a top made out of the old floor in the house i grew up in. Not sure exactly what it is but it had so much resin in it i had to clean my plane sole with every couple strokes.
As a new builder. I found the tap tests along with your thoughts on them and how you would adapt the bracing to be one of the most helpful building videos I have seen yet. Keep up the great work.
Thank you so much! I've watched many of those cork sniffer videos warning us newbies not to use scrap or reclaimed wood on our first build. Why not? My dad used to say "I've never learned a thing from things that go well." You are my favorite luthier! My wife and I both love your videos!
Thanks for the sharing these, and your reflections on the tonal qualities. I really love white pine and it's nice to have the encouragement to explore with this wood.
Great video. I am a newish builder and use a lot of unusual woods in my builds, partly because I like working with scrap (no waste!) and partly as an experiment. I don't want to be bound by preconceived ideas of what is correct or allowable. I really love your videos on expanding our thinking in wood choice. The Douglas Fir really stands out, as did the pine. I think the butternut works perfectly for a bass. I appreciate the advice on voicing as well. Your explanations were clear and helpful. Thanks.
I was at my local Austin Hardwood store just this week and although I have never built a guitar, I have been kicking around the idea. With that in mind I went down the aisle where the western pine and cedar are stocked. I noticed the Douglas fir, very close, very straight grain, and wondered why, like cedar, it wasn't being used in guitars. Then along comes this video.
Here in Australia, many luthiers are now using native Australian tonewoods. We are seeing some excellent builds as a consequence. I applaud your use of non standard tonewoods.
As a guitar player and a fine furniture maker, very beautiful work. This is skill as it's best and yet so modest. Thank you for these videos. I look forward to watching more.
I once heard about a legendary guitar made with a cherry top; built by a luthier in the Southeast US who made a guitar for Eric Clapton. Not many people talk about it, and there are no recordings of it, but they say it sounds absolutely wonderful.
Cherry has most of the same specifications of Mahogany...except for the stability. People like Mahogany tops so I can see it being used. I've done back, sides, & neck in cherry and it is beautiful. As one instructor says, "it is all about stiffness and looseness", that is what you need to figure out for each species.I may have to try a cherry top as I have a garage full of that stuff.
Thank you so much for sharing your vast knowledge of wood and bracing and guitar building!! You’ve given me unbelievable encouragement to try my hand at building an instrument!
That's great news and your comment encourages me to put out more and better videos. Enjoy building a guitar and don't forget to start the second one a little before you finish your first.
The Douglas fir was a delightful surprise. I have access to a variety of old wood - as in 100-250 years old - from a friend who does a lot of remodeling of Colonial houses.
I attended the luthier course at The Apprentice Shop in Springhill TN in late '76. They had a jumbo-sized guitar built by Mike Lennon with a root Honduran mahogany top. It was my favorite guitar in the place. You wouldn't expect it but it sounded fantastic.
Hey, great video! I have commented before on the use of domestic woods etc, and I love the idea. Especially interested in white pine and white oak, I’m in NC and we have plenty of these in this area. Thanks for all the advice and info you provide with your channel!
I've got a very nice tight grained piece of DF that should yield at least two great tops. Great color as well. I'm looking forward to trying it out. Thanks for another great video.
Over the years ive used spruce, ceder, spruce and ceder combo in strips, bamboo and oregon pine. Its all about how you use it, every piece of spruce is different so will take different thicknes and bracing to perform right and the same can be done for a lot of different species.
Great pragmatic approach to the craft very informative and interesting . I live in South Eastern Queensland on the island continent of Australia where our timber is about as different to your NTH American species as is possible. Ive been building Guitars and Tube amps since the 90's and use, QLD maple ,Silky Oak,Quandong,Flandousa,QLD Red Cedar,White Cedar ,QLD Black Bean and my favorite FNQLD Sasafras, All unique to this land. Marvelous timbers
I love your presentation of alternate material tops! You are truly an expert. For my first guitar I made a knotty cedar topped semi-hollow telecaster out of scrap wood and invasive tree of heaven composite. I even made the neck out of reclaimed flooring. In the electric world musicality is all in the pickups anyways, but it really sings. Everybody should be doing this for maximum sustainability.
Bud, superb. For me, the Sitka and the last one were the stand outs. I'm a player, and although I build a huge amount of things, have not even looked at building a guitar. But I'm certainly interested in tone woods. The sitka, I already know the tone of. That last one was magical. Thanks heaps for the video.
i like the layout and the order of your workshop, amazing. i remember reading bob benedettos book on MAKING THE ARCHTOP GUITAR. He stated he made an archtop guitar by using construction pine, the top ,bottom, sides and neck. He said it sounded no different than his high dollar made guitars. He said in the hands of the luthier , skill, experience, and he claim that the top plate and bottom plate should have a certain weight upon carving ( finishing them). I read this around 1994 ?
I've got that book too, and another one called The Blue Guitar where 25 makers did whatever they wanted as long as they stained them blue. Seems to me Sitka spruce is NOT the ONLY guitar top wood anymore! I haven't built a guitar yet, but I have collected some woods, like a fantastic tiger maple that should make about three necks, and last week I dragged home a very pretty pallet to reclaim. I did play a pine guitar once, it was deep sounding, lovely.
I’m enjoying your bracing commentary. I’d be interested to see if you took a top, hide glued the braces and tested it, then shifted them down and tested it. That sort of comparative thing would be so concrete.
Those are some very interesting top woods. I know I've heard of a few different to words, including sycamore and Walnut. I'm definitely curious to learn of different options for the tops and sides. So I'll be curious to hear what these sound like in an instrument.
I make my ukuleles with woods sourced locally in Northern Illinois. Black Walnut, White Oak, Crabapple, Magnolia and maple have all served me well. I have some Cherry drying for use in a few years. So I think you are a kindred spirit…
Great video. I too have always been interested alternatives to spruce for tops. I have number potentials on the shelf. Red wood and western cedar among them. Your thoughts on bracing with the idea voicing top, given the material used, was much appreciated. I'm sure you also associate this with the thickness of the top material in question. There always something to learn with each instrument we build.
I’ve been building ukuleles with maple tops for a little while now. You have to make them thinner and adjust the bracing to compensate, but they have a delightfully bright tone…
I love what you do on your channel. I follow every post. I’m about to try my first build at the age of 54. What could go wrong😅. So thanks for all your helpful tuition and tip.
I’ve built three classical guitars with redwood tops. Two from a salvaged forest floor log and one from sinker redwood. All with sitka bracing. Similar to cedar in its warmth but a little darker and very even and smooth across the strings. Probably not for everyone but I love it for its contrast to spruce and cedar.
Why didn't I know about you previously? Love your new (to me) videos and most of all your attitude to Woods. Here in New Zealand I've been using Kauri, (Agathis Australis) recycled, old growth and 'newly" cut. Matai, (Prumnopitys Taxifolia) NZ Cedar, (Libocedrus Bidwilli) for tops for many years now. They all work. The sound is perfectly acceptable, but different than 'traditional' woods. The Kauri especially is a wonderful top, has nice sweet tone at low volume and plenty of headroom at the top end. As for Douglas fir, almost invariably I use it for brace wood, all recycled. It's light and extremely strong, can be trimmed and sculpted to fine dimensions while retaining it's strength. Keep thinking outside the square.
In regard to the Douglas Fir, I've seen in very old buildings, mainly Church Steeples and Bell Towers, Douglas Fir used for lintels for the brick masonry work. Sometimes it was shocking that after 150-200 years most of the wood lintels were in excellent condition. We did replace many but almost never was it many per structure. I should add that the older masons new how to keep the weather off the wood lintels by keeping them slightly back in the wall as were the brick layed on the lintel cantilevered outward 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 inches. Most of failures (wood rot) I saw were from poor painting and caulking techniques. I am now retired and miss my work very much.
Another great video Kevin. One of your precious videos on adjusting the placement of bracing to affect the tone is the best I’ve seen on you tube. Regarding the acoustic bass, I have looked everywhere for a build/tutorial series on building and acoustic bass and there isn’t one. Would be great to see yours. Fingers crossed.
I have searched for that same information and have found nothing as well. The bass I'm currently building is only my sixth, so I won't claim expertise, but your suggestion is motivating me to at least take a stab at producing some videos along the way, if nothing else, as a point of departure for others. Thanks for that suggestion.
I built an acoustic for a friend who had no money. I used shelving boards from Lowe’s. That was 15 years ago. He still plays it. It was spruce everything. Lol.
Thanks Kevin, Great video. If you could do a video sometime showing what you mean by loosening or tightening up the bracing and what those changes do that would be helpful. I am especially interested in the Doug Fir because I have that available in my area of the country and I have a few billets of it already.
kevin, you're a breath of fresh air in the youtube luthier community! someday, i'd love to have you build a new mexico native guitar for me. rocky mountain blue spruce top, and i'm not sure which hardwood to consider for the back/sides-would love your thoughts! thanks for all your fantastic information/experience!
I'm not inclined to even sound "commercial" on this forum, but I would be happy to communicate over this issue with at a time of your choosing. You can reach me through my website. Thanks for your positive comment.
Interesting. My favorite classical guitar, made in 1972, has a top of Alaskan Yellow Cedar, (Manuel Fraquela called it High Altitude Canadian Cedar, from its appearance and grain it is the Yellow variant) very similar to Port Orford Cedar. Very fine grain, denser and harder than Western Red Cedar. Manuel Fraguela used bracing similar to what Ramirez was using in the late 60s with a slanted lower cross brace and 7 fan braces. It has good bass response, but the treble is also strong and it has surprisingly good sustain for a classical. As for top grade selection, John Gilbert often preferred A or AA tops because they had the density he was looking for. For the steel string I am building now, I took the traditional route for my first steel string acoustic and went with a fine grain Sitka top.
The pine and fir are amazing! They’ll probably give beautifully balanced guitars especially in the GA or concert sizes - might be a bit ‘boomy’ for a dreadnaught but I’m considering a GA sized guitar now… and that fir has a chime to it that I think would be amazing for jazz! I don’t have the facilities to make guitars but I do make my own pics out of local NZ hardwoods - and I enjoy not listening to the click of the commercial plastic plectrums; favourite is probably Rimu - followed by Kowhai (a nice creamy wood) - which both take a lovely finish! PS - that butternut is absolutely stunning….
Super informative! Find the use of alternative woods very exciting. As a paying customer, my priority would always be sound over looks - especially if it keeps the finished price down. So for me, playability and sonic appeal outweigh everything else.
Your video was awesome. I'm with you on pine. I don't make guitars yet but I am making ukuleles. As Sitka is getting harder and more expensive, I'm all for considering other options. I'm trying to focus what I make based on the tone woods present in the New England ... primarily NH & ME. I've made several pine top (Eastern White) ukuleles and I can tell you it's a beautiful tone wood. I've started the hunt to see about getting quarter sawn pine, but very few do it or just don't advertise it. Along with the pine, I have access to quite a bit of cherry. My last uke I did the white pine top and used cherry as the sides and the bottom. I also use cherry for the tops as well. The pine with the cherry is awesome. I'm not sure why Cherry has also been over looked, I suspect that it's used more in furniture building. I highly recommend it along with the pine. I'm trying to think outside the box as it's easy to get caught up in what's the flavor of the day and not considering other possibilities. Also I like to work with local mills where I can physically take my time and go through the wood I'm looking for. Though alot of people just flat saw pine, you can get quarter sawn (somewhat) when you flat saw on both sides of the pyth, usually the grain pattern is quarter sawn. Pine is very underated as a wood but yet I've seen some lovely pieces for making instruments. Do you have a video on just voicing your soundboards? I found your testing the different woods for sound was great. It would be nice to see something even more indepth. Great video! I'm your list.
I love your "pragmatic" approach to the different and sometimes unconventional types of tonewoods you use whether in the soundboard or the back and sides. Every tonewood is unique and has its own qualities. I realise that Adirondack Spruce is the "epitome of tone" but, I also realise that maple, mahogany, cedar, walnut, koa, rosewood, dao and even willow and others are just as relevant. Thanks for your considered opinions and innovations.
A flat sawn top is not the text book way to orient an instrument top at all, but I'm curious. Why do you assert that an X-brace is so necessary in that context?
Is my interpretation of your theory correct; that being that an X-brace on a flat sawn top will resist upward distortion below the bridge and downward above it, better than fan or ladder bracing, especially ladder bracing. There is actually very little difference in stiffness between flat and quarter sawn material, so the bracing pattern may not be of paramount importance with respect to strength. An instrument top is almost always quartered because radial shrinkage and swelling are about half that of flat sawn in any given specie. With respect to bracing patterns for steel string guitars, I have used fan bracing, but my efforts produced an undesirable tone. I'm confident that it works, but I missed the target. As for ladder bracing, I won't touch it. Richard Schneider pointed out that as a brace is rotated closer and closer to a 90 degree angle to the grain of a top, it tends to shut down the transfer of kinetic energy from its position, below the point of excitation of the string, the result being an instrument of demonstrably drier, slightly vapid tone and a recognizable loss of volume. I hope my answer has some value. Your questions certainly invite thoughtful debate. Thank you.
I was cutting up some 90 year olf Doug Fir floor joists I salvaged from a school in California and dropped a piece on the floor. I was immediately struck by the musicality of the tone it made. I’ve asked some local luthiers if they have ever used and they hadn’t which struck me too. The sound was undeniably pleasant and it’s plentiful on the west coast so why isn’t it used more often? Still don’t have an answer and I’ve never heard a guitar with a Doug fir top still…
Because I have built other things out of white pine, (not instruments), I wondered why I never see it at luthier supply houses. Thank you and I think it is gorgeous.
I think you don't see Pine at Luthiers' supply companies because it's one of those "no one else sells it so we don't" situations. If enough independent builders use it, or if a manufacturer came looking for it, it would be easily available.
i like your thinking!....im using some Queensland maple ...a great timber for necks and back and sides.....the next few guitars i make will have Quilted Queensland Maple tops!!!...
That sounds like a great idea! Myself, I'm looking forward to starting a Sycamore top. I have seen and heard a guitar done with it and can't resist the temptation to try it myself.
PLEASE do the follow up vedios. I am really cuorious to know the results of the five guitars. It would be first one of its kind clasic work. Thank you such to share your inspirational ideal and ecperience!
Thanks for the encouragement. It will take several months, but I am committed to demonstrating the finished instruments and doing an objective evaluation of the results. Stay tuned and thanks for watching.
Enjoyed the video! I really liked the sound of Douglas Fir through my headphones. Have you ever thought trying something even more unusual, such as a hardwood like say curly maple? I recently watched a video of a guitar Taylor made with a maple top. I was wondering if Butternut is similar to maple? Cheers!
I'm looking at trying several different hardwood tops, possibly this winter. I have been so busy with commissions and some furniture projects in my house, I haven't had time to build myself a guitar. It's getting to be a serious problem; I haven't had a new guitar in over a year. Woe is me.
Always thought the idea of building a top out of old piano sound board was a great idea. Old pianos are free. The wood is really old. Probably old-growth. I'm sure the better pianos used great spruce. Obviously they wouldn't be two piece tops, but it's something I'll probably get around to one day. At least it would be fantastic brace wood. Just my two cents. Loved the video!
My second guitar used an old piano soundboard. That guitar was a bit rough around the edges. It has done the rounds with some local musicians due to the sound it had.
Acoustic guitar tops are the speaker cones of the guitar, just like those recycled compressed paper cones in speakers reproducing guitar music. How many people tap on speaker cones to figure out how well they will reproduce guitar sounds? Bracing is the key to finished guitar tone (you already mentioned changing bracing patterns during builds). Drive under highway bridges and railway bridges and look at the depths of the I-beams.Depth of the beam is more important to support loads (or reproduce sounds) than the tops since beam height or depth is a cubed factor in the engineering equations. A 3mm top cannot hold string tension like the 12mm braces under them, and carefully shaving those braces thinner is what many do to alter the sensitivity of the guitar sound (where 'cheap factory' guitars just use un-shaven bracing bars due to time). One example out there: the Obrien Guitars channel made a cardboard guitar and it sounded good -- not far from compressed paper speaker cone materials assuming bracing ends are fixed to the sides. Accurate thickness comparisons (and uniformity) of the tops when tapping them along with plate length and width plus with/without sound hole are the tonal variations of tapping tops alone, more so than the wood. Take a look at Marimba tuning, they gouge away wood from the back side until they hit the note they are after. Because guitar tops are so thin to start, sanding variation at three decimal places can be impactful (any thickness variation is cubed). I like your pragmatic approach and see you have some other investigative style videos on your channel I'll have to take a look at. Thanks!
As I watch these videos and glean what knowledge I can, I was happy to see you had a four piece top. Would you ever join multiple species of wood for a top?
At the age of 18, I met C.F. Martin III, who told me: "You could make a guitar top in ten pieces if you braced it right." I never forgot that and i have made tops with as many as 9 pieces. I suggest that you try whatever your imagination, intuition, and materials lead you to do. And ENJOY the experience.
As a woodworker; this is my next venture. I’ve made a new neck and turned a damaged acoustic into a 5 string; but I would like to build the whole guitar and as a new subscriber; I am impressed with your work. Also being from Michigan; I’ve thought why use the so called norm woods for guitars when this state has a variety of interesting species to choose from. Thank you for posting this and other informative videos on this subject. Take care.
That Douglas fir has a nice bell like tone. I'm not a luthier or a player. However, I do find the artistry of gituar making and musicians playing them fascinating. So, to the novice, what do you mean by sawn top versus split top? 2ndly, if the board is wide enough, is there any reason not to make the top from a single wide board versus two glued bookmarked pieces? I'd presume from listening to your video about laminated necks the glued 2, 3, 4 piece tops have greater stability and less chance of warpage? Thanks for these videos. You make excellent points. I think the quartersawn cherry and sycamore lumber is beautiful. Have you tried any American persimmon?
Thank you for your comment and your question. Split tops begin as billets of wood literally split from short (approximately two feet long) log sections, similar to the way firewood is split. These billets, as seen from the end look roughly like a slice of pie. The reason for splitting them is to glean a surface that follows the natural growth line of the tree as closely as possible. The billets are then sliced on a bandsaw, with each pair of adjacent slices collected as two-piece tops. "Sawn" tops are taken from boards and planks which often have "runout". The growth lines cross the edge of the sawn board at an angle, sometimes acceptable and sometimes not at all. This happens in sawn lumber because it is impossible (and wasteful) to saw boards perfectly parallel to the taper of a log. Sawn tops with too much runout are less desirable. they refract light differently when they are re-sawn and book matched. If runout is too severe it will also affect strength but this would be a rare occurrence in sawn tops.. There are some one-piece tops available for luthierie, but they are rare because of their width. There is also an argument to be made that a one piece top is less consistent than a two-piece book matched top, that is, the growth rings in a one piece top will vary in width from sapwood to heartwood, more than a matched two-piece top, making a one-piece top somewhat less consistent in its physical and therefore, tonal characteristics.
I'm starting to feel overwhelmed by the variety of data needed to learn from each build. Species used, thicknesses, bracing patterns, and so on. Would you share what data you record from each build - or at least, what data you find most useful in helping you understand how a guitar will be affected by your build choices? I find your videos quite interesting and even inspirational, Kevin. I'm quite glad you decided to do this. Thank you.
Thank you for this comment in particular. I've done 147 guitars to date and often feel exactly the same way and I KNOW many others do as well. I may try a video to address this very thing, but in the meantime, may I suggest that you pick, even almost at random, a point of departure within known reasonable limits of species, dimensions etc, and enjoy the process because it will serve as a point of departure your YOU personally. And most importantly, remember that it is the joy of the experience that is often greater than the end product. Lastly, refrain from thinking of building a guitar in terms of Martin, Taylor, or whoever is the big name and expert in the field. Enjoy the process and build yourself a guitar or 300.
Im a part time Kiwi hobby builder. Usually I have to use what wood I can get. I've tried a few of our native softwoods, Kauri and Matai for soundboards. They seem to work well. There are a few native hardwoods that seem to work well for backs, sides, necks, bridges and fingerboards. Thanks so much for your vids. They are very interesting and useful.
@@thepragmaticluthier thanks. Just been building a go bar and radius dishes this morning. Sadly im off to say goodbye to an extremely sick and skilled violin and mandolin builder this afternoon.. I have a big bandsaw and cut up my own logs. Im an experimentor. Interested in the what if.. An aging folkie musician. I've spent more than two decades teaching secondary workshop metal and wood well retutef now Thanks so much for your vids. They are really inspiring.
Great inspiration Kevin...am about to start my first scratchbuilt acoustic, after repairing them for many years. Am 68 now. Any opinion on yellow cedar for tops ? Have been told by experienced guys that it is good for back & sides, or classical. I like to experiment on steel string build. Might even try ladder bracing with top on the thin side, as the YC is pretty strong stuff. Have a soft spot for my old Harmony SOVEREIGN 1260. Wonderful unique tone IMHO. Thanks
I have limited but very positive experience with Yellow Cedar tops. I think it could be ventured that if you build within reasonably known limits of thickness and brace height, toucan't go wrong with it. Personally, I avoid ladder bracing in a top. Richard Schneider claimed that a brace placed at 90 degrees across a top, tends to shut them down. On the other hand, the Larrivee guitars are very successful and considered among the best. Go figure.
@@thepragmaticluthier Thanks for reply. I am from Larrivee country....Victoria B.C., Canada. Very successful up here ! I find the SOVEREIGNs to be amazing tone wise, but are usually bellied. Most need neck reset. I leave the tops as they are usually stable after 50 or so years. There is a school of thought where some redo them with X - bracing...not a fan. A Sovie has beautiful singing highs & muted bass. It is my preference as l do a lot of melody picking over chords, on the higher strings. Heavy bass, just muddies things up IMO. It is what it is....why change it ? Hope you have a chance to try one someday. Thanks again
Would a spalted hardwood work as a sound board? What about sapwood from cherry or walnut? Just thinking of less dense versions of US hardwoods that could have interesting tonal properties.
Spalted wood is hard to trust because it is, in reality, minimally rotted. At the dimensions instrument parts are made, i would be reluctant to trust it. It is true that sapwood is less dense than heartwood, but getting enough of it to make a guitar top would probably require an eight or ten piece top; difficult but not impossible. While I wouldn't try it, it may be an idea with contemplation and worthy of at least some experimentation.
I have used Chechen for several fingerboards and bridges but I don't build bodies and necks from exotic woods so I have no authoritative knowledge regarding its bending properties. I does require a little patience, however and razor sharp tools will yield the best results.
Some local species I'm curious about - based on little more than the sound made by handling sticks or hewing the logs - are: honey locust Persimmon Mulberry Dogwood
I admire that you heard those suggestions of music in the timber you're using. To me, and I hope you, that mean, build an instrument. You can't go wrong.
The Douglas fir sounds great. It has the kind of ring that classical guitars need. I'm glad to see the consideration of white pine. The town I live in was a white pine forest. They are being brought down regularly. Four-piece top? If it was good enough for Torres, it's good enough for me! Thanks.
Thanks for your comment, especially for the section about Torres. I think builders everywhere need to revisit this sort of information and allow it to influence their thinking.
Any variety or version of Redwood is as viable as an instrument top as any other provided that it can handle the tresses in the contact of its use. Your choice of Walnut and Redwood seems to be purely an aesthetic one and that's perfectly legitimate and to my eye, would be very handsome. If, however, you consider the instrument, its specifications, circumstances of use, and your tonal goal, Walnut may or may not be your best choice.
Wow. Haha. I had a ball sir. Deep respect for you and your craftsmanship. But I love timber and wood work . The differences in tonal qualities is distinct. Where to brace though ? Please excuse my ignorance. Bc I would imagine that once applied, I would think that bracing for stress reduction would change the acoustic properties of the timber ? Possibly making it worse not better. On the other hand, it may have a positive effect. How do you gauge this dance ? Is it by ‘knowing’ or by feel ? Or ?? What ? Cheers
You've brought up excellent questions that a case full of books can't answer completely or satisfactorily. There is lots of science and even more theory on the whole wood and bracing thing. In the nutshell, it's easy to imagine that a guitar top made too thick or braced too heavily will be quiet and not at all pleasing, but strong. the opposite end of the scale would be structural failure. it is between those extremes that guitar making exists.
I applaud your efforts to open minds about non-traditional wood! I predict the white pine will be the loudest. If the mass of the top is the enemy, and thickness depends on density and stiffness, then there are many species that are better than Sitka Spruce. Using the Gore formula for calculating thickness based on average values of density and stiffness for each species, species that would make better tops than Sitka include (in order): Eastern White Pine White Fir Norway Spruce Northern White Cedar Noble Fir Black Cottonwood Western Red Cedar Engelmann Spruce Japanese Cedar (Sugi) Paulownia Lutz Spruce Balsa
An impressive body of knowledge. I look forward to the day when the science, information and quantifications of Gore, Kasha, French , et al, finally dovetail neatly with the empirical and intuitive traditions of guitar making.
Your comment causes me to wonder if you would make disparaging comments about the mashed potatoes at a free Thanksgiving dinner. My apologies that what I share isn't up to your standards.
You show the tops, which is of great interest to me, but I cannot see the grain due to the low quality video. Surely it is not beyond the realms to film in greater resolution for the benefit of all? Sorry if I came across as disparaging - I could perhaps have put it better, but was so dissapointed in the visuals, I gave up watching. I am tho, subscribed and do like your content, a lot. @@thepragmaticluthier
Awesome video How long did it take you to learn about shifting braces forward, backwards, tight or loose ect. Virtually modifying brace patterns to suite the soundboard
It has taken 32 years to get to this point in what I presently know, but a more practical answer would be: I first took hints from Cumpiano & Natelson's book and from there, observed, listened, read and experimented. I would say to get a reasonable understanding took about fifteen years and around forty guitars. I have always found that the really important information that I benefited from seemed to be nuanced as opposed to made of primary importance in most sources. I try to make many of those points prominent in my presentations. I am certain that the learning curve is much easier to negotiate now, because of CZcams. Even though there is a ton of mindless twaddle out there, one soon learn to separate the nonsense from the good sense, just by watching and comparing notes. Good luck in your building.
Just a few more Q’s I’m from australia so I’ll translate everything as far as measurements and money to imperial and USD cause I work with both systems. I was finding it very hard to find a Douglas fir soundboards to import from America I found one set from allied luthiery $125 (standard dimensions for soundboard blanks) but obviously postage from the US to australia is expensive However I found a local supplier of Douglas fir who’s able to quarter saw and dress a board of W 8.86” x L 70.87” and 1.57” thick for $117.64 The cost I haven’t added is a kiln drying service cause they say it’s better to build guitars with the tonewoods at a moisture content of 9% and the supplier said that there timber comes in at 12% and under but they store it on the floor for a number of months Also have you used the fir for bracing If so how did it go And one last thing what’s the best way to seal the end grain for storage?
From your description, the price of Douglas Fir is very reasonable. If it comes to your supplier at 12% MC, you can easily cure it for use by storing it in your environment for a few months. I don't think you'll need to seal the end grain, but common paraffin will do the job. Best of luck and enjoyment with your building:)
I have used Douglas Fir for top bracing, many years ago. I can't say within authority, what it does with respect to tone, but the guitar I used it in is now 29 years old and has been perfectly stable and I am very satisfied with its sound, taking into account that it was the 5th guitar I built.
@@thepragmaticluthier cool thanks heaps How do you treat fir cause I’ve only worked with the classics (spruce, cedar mahogany Indian rosewood and ebony) I know people say when you work with cedar everything needs to be slightly thicker than spruce and as far as thickness wise and bracing
What Duke Ellington said…”If it sounds good, IT IS good.” Also to answer one question you raised…Allied Lutherie (Adam Buchwald in Vermont) has recently sold beautiful old growth Douglas Fir tops made from resawn Catholic School bleachers. Ken Parker has everything good to say about Douglas Fir. I wish I could get my hands on some of it here in Alabama easier.
Im a pro woodworker and Im sorting out pine 2x4’s that are used to stack up packs of wood, need 5 of them, glue them, saw them, and then I got material for an archtop
One big note on sustain - if you have a lower frequency, the sustain should be longer for the same Q factor. Q factor measures how much energy you lose per oscillation (or rather, half oscillation if you want to get specific about it). The thing that sets spruce apart is its stiffness to weight, which is great for volume, technically speaking, because less mass = less inertia in the instrument. That is, you can build a lighter instrument with a stiffer material, which is more important on the soundboard. Basically, if you have two pieces of wood, and when tapping one of them has half the sustain at twice the frequency, they have the same Q factor. But, I don't see people controlling for Q factor. Also, I saw a video by Tom Sands, and left him a comment about how he actually nearly aced his tap test, and the ones that he didn't get were so close that it was within the error range: czcams.com/video/muk59giPra0/video.html&ab_channel=TomSands The "master grade" ones were the least stiff per weight. Master grade seems like voodoo, and there is no mechanical standard. Also worth noting... Stradivarius used spruce with knots in it. Knots can add character to the timbre, not just the tone. Also your Douglas Fir sounds really pretty. Instead of loosing it up, what you should do is consider making it thinner it because it might actually be extremely stiff to its weight at that high pitched tone.
I admire your engineering expertise and It is timely and appropriate that science and engineering is amalgamated into lutherie (more than it has been to date). Hose Romanillios even said, "we have come as far as we can. Now we need the help of science." And he's right, but he also possesses the wisdom to know that quantification of efficiency, resonance, etc, cannot dovetail with the subjective definition of an "excellent sound" and that without his expertise and influence, a guitar could end up like the drawings of a swing designed by an engineer.
@@thepragmaticluthier Heh! What's funny about my case is that I think that the science is like the classically masculine, and the subjective taste of it is the classically feminine. I don't think we're done in our progression not only in technology, but also in terms of meaning and beauty! That's actually become like my life's mission, to develop philosophies of harmonization of these seemingly disparate things in order to move forward in a way that is meaningful that actually integrates all that came before it. I'm actually quite grateful that the harmonics of complex instruments is essentially an unsolved problem due to the complexity of it. It leaves room for subjectivity and mystery. I actually would like to make the case that science can illuminate the true "best" woods based on some base characteristics like loudness and sustain, as well as give us things like blind tests to see what characteristics matter. But after that, it's up to subjectivity.
I like your use of non traditional tonewoods. I do not agree with, Taylor and Martin, telling us we need to preserve rosewood and ebony, because they are endangered, while still using these woods on extremely expensive guitars while trying to push newer, or man made materials on the less economically fortunate, at what I would still call a premium price. I like your channel, and look forward to more of your videos, thank you very much.
I don't think martin & Taylor are actively trying to tell the public what to buy, but tradition and manufacturer practice has created a market perception that persists, even in many small shops and in the minds of consumers. These traditional notions are breaking down at a fast pace, if for no other reason, than the increasing shortage of supply. I don't know what Martin has done, if anything about future supply, but Taylor has made terrific effort, buying land and farming Ebony in Africa and actively working to perpetuate the supply of Koa in Hawaii. The cost of these traditional materials is, I agree, prohibitive to more and more buyers, and that is a sad situation, but the present conditions cannot be blamed solely on the manufacturers. The upside is, the conditions have motivated many buyers and builders to utilize new materials and to see their value.
It seems to me that if you are going to accurately compare woods you should hold them in the exact same spot. Moving your fingers one or two mm is going to change the tone and sustain a lot. Hanging all the tops from the sound hole and tapping at the bridge might be a way to get an accurate comparison? Thank you
What I'm looking for in each top is a nodal point, a spot where the my grip does not interfere with the flexing of the plate. Try it sometime. You'll immediately hear the top shut down if you grip it on an anti-nodal spot.
The hemlock one has a heavy duty brace, wouldn't that affect the tap tone? maybe? And the fir one has no hole! that would make it considerably stiffer and behave so. The others have holes. But maybe that has nothing to do with what your looking for.
Your assessment is correct in every regard. All that you mentioned has an effect on the tap response. The weird thin is that after a long term of working at this, you learn to count for all of those variables as you build a personal mental database. It's weird, it's intuitive, but it actually works.
I like using out of the ordinary woods for guitars. I have always thought that white poplar or tulip poplar would make a excellent top. I am now completely determined to make a 100% IPE guitar due to its nightmarish hardness and intolerance to workability. It's hard to glue, and is not happy at all about bending. The only way to bend it is to fully submerge it in water for 3 days first. It is almost waterproof from the high oil content. But the tone density is incredible it rings like a glass bell. I'm doing it just beacuse someone said its a terrible idea lol. I am expecting carbon fiber type tone.
Thirty years ago, a luthier told me that Douglas Fir cannot be used for a guitar top and it was for that reason that I immediately started one. I admire your attitude and approach. Don't listen to the cork sniffers, pursue you notions. I'll bet you're going to get a really nice guitar out of this.
@@thepragmaticluthier Thanks for the encouragement. I am just the type that has to do something because someone said I can't. It just makes it that much more challenging, and the satisfaction is two fold. Great content sir ! I really enjoy it.
I have a cedar topped guitar, and a mahogany topped guitar. Many spruce tops, also. The actual thickness of the top, how it's cut, and how dry it is has a profound effect on 'tone'. Also there are 35 species of spruce, 4 species of Cedar, and at least 7 species of mahogany. A species of wood has no tonal qualities, actually. It's the actual piece of wood that counts.
I think that is a fairly consistent result of using lower density hardwoods for tops. I have experienced the same thing with Mahogany, Walnut, Butternut.
I could listen to this guy all day. Old world sensibilities.
Over the years ive built a lot of guitars but the one that makes me most proud still is the guitar i built for my father that has a top made out of the old floor in the house i grew up in. Not sure exactly what it is but it had so much resin in it i had to clean my plane sole with every couple strokes.
As a new builder. I found the tap tests along with your thoughts on them and how you would adapt the bracing to be one of the most helpful building videos I have seen yet. Keep up the great work.
It's nice to know that you derive benefit from this. Thank you for your comment.
I don't know if anybody has done it before, but your demonstration is what I've been looking for, for years. Thank you very much.
Thank you so much! I've watched many of those cork sniffer videos warning us newbies not to use scrap or reclaimed wood on our first build. Why not? My dad used to say "I've never learned a thing from things that go well." You are my favorite luthier! My wife and I both love your videos!
Thanks for the sharing these, and your reflections on the tonal qualities. I really love white pine and it's nice to have the encouragement to explore with this wood.
Great video. I am a newish builder and use a lot of unusual woods in my builds, partly because I like working with scrap (no waste!) and partly as an experiment.
I don't want to be bound by preconceived ideas of what is correct or allowable. I really love your videos on expanding our thinking in wood choice.
The Douglas Fir really stands out, as did the pine.
I think the butternut works perfectly for a bass.
I appreciate the advice on voicing as well. Your explanations were clear and helpful.
Thanks.
I was at my local Austin Hardwood store just this week and although I have never built a guitar, I have been kicking around the idea. With that in mind I went down the aisle where the western pine and cedar are stocked. I noticed the Douglas fir, very close, very straight grain, and wondered why, like cedar, it wasn't being used in guitars. Then along comes this video.
Here in Australia, many luthiers are now using native Australian tonewoods. We are seeing some excellent builds as a consequence. I applaud your use of non standard tonewoods.
Recently Australian tone woods have become readily available in the US.
Very cool. I can't wait to hear the final builds and their character. Thank you.
I wish you had a hands-on luthier school. I enjoyed it very much sir!
I recently made a guitar out of osage orange, walnut, and american sassafras. Sounded remarkably well. All local woods from the area where I live.
the Douglas fur sounds incredible had no idea you can use it . love the grain aswell very interesting
I'm looking forward to my first build. Your teachings are helping me to choose the components of the build, Thank you!
Awesome video! I’m no longer scared to use that straight grained 4 foot pine log in my basement for top material!
As a guitar player and a fine furniture maker, very beautiful work. This is skill as it's best and yet so modest. Thank you for these videos. I look forward to watching more.
Butternut is a very interesting wood. Never would have thought of using it for a top
I once heard about a legendary guitar made with a cherry top; built by a luthier in the Southeast US who made a guitar for Eric Clapton. Not many people talk about it, and there are no recordings of it, but they say it sounds absolutely wonderful.
Cherry has most of the same specifications of Mahogany...except for the stability. People like Mahogany tops so I can see it being used. I've done back, sides, & neck in cherry and it is beautiful. As one instructor says, "it is all about stiffness and looseness", that is what you need to figure out for each species.I may have to try a cherry top as I have a garage full of that stuff.
Thank you so much for sharing your vast knowledge of wood and bracing and guitar building!! You’ve given me unbelievable encouragement to try my hand at building an instrument!
That's great news and your comment encourages me to put out more and better videos. Enjoy building a guitar and don't forget to start the second one a little before you finish your first.
The Douglas fir was a delightful surprise. I have access to a variety of old wood - as in 100-250 years old - from a friend who does a lot of remodeling of Colonial houses.
Thank you it’s very informative on how you listen to tops ❤🎸🎸☮️🖖
Very enjoyable. Thank you 🙏
Thanx for the shows!
I attended the luthier course at The Apprentice Shop in Springhill TN in late '76. They had a jumbo-sized guitar built by Mike Lennon with a root Honduran mahogany top. It was my favorite guitar in the place. You wouldn't expect it but it sounded fantastic.
Hey, great video! I have commented before on the use of domestic woods etc, and I love the idea. Especially interested in white pine and white oak, I’m in NC and we have plenty of these in this area. Thanks for all the advice and info you provide with your channel!
I've got a very nice tight grained piece of DF that should yield at least two great tops. Great color as well. I'm looking forward to trying it out. Thanks for another great video.
Over the years ive used spruce, ceder, spruce and ceder combo in strips, bamboo and oregon pine. Its all about how you use it, every piece of spruce is different so will take different thicknes and bracing to perform right and the same can be done for a lot of different species.
Great pragmatic approach to the craft very informative and interesting . I live in South Eastern Queensland on the island continent of Australia where our timber is about as different to your NTH American species as is possible. Ive been building Guitars and Tube amps since the 90's and use, QLD maple ,Silky Oak,Quandong,Flandousa,QLD Red Cedar,White Cedar ,QLD Black Bean and my favorite FNQLD Sasafras, All unique to this land. Marvelous timbers
Thank you for your insight
I love your presentation of alternate material tops! You are truly an expert. For my first guitar I made a knotty cedar topped semi-hollow telecaster out of scrap wood and invasive tree of heaven composite. I even made the neck out of reclaimed flooring. In the electric world musicality is all in the pickups anyways, but it really sings. Everybody should be doing this for maximum sustainability.
My most beloved axe is my Taylor Academy 20e. The walnut is just gorgeous, and the compressed tone is perfect for me.
Bud, superb. For me, the Sitka and the last one were the stand outs. I'm a player, and although I build a huge amount of things, have not even looked at building a guitar. But I'm certainly interested in tone woods. The sitka, I already know the tone of. That last one was magical.
Thanks heaps for the video.
Interesting for sure. The Douglas Fir has me thinking...
i like the layout and the order of your workshop, amazing. i remember reading bob benedettos book on MAKING THE ARCHTOP GUITAR. He stated he made an archtop guitar by using construction pine, the top ,bottom, sides and neck. He said it sounded no different than his high dollar made guitars. He said in the hands of the luthier , skill, experience, and he claim that the top plate and bottom plate should have a certain weight upon carving ( finishing them). I read this around 1994 ?
I've got that book too, and another one called The Blue Guitar where 25 makers did whatever they wanted as long as they stained them blue. Seems to me Sitka spruce is NOT the ONLY guitar top wood anymore! I haven't built a guitar yet, but I have collected some woods, like a fantastic tiger maple that should make about three necks, and last week I dragged home a very pretty pallet to reclaim. I did play a pine guitar once, it was deep sounding, lovely.
I’m enjoying your bracing commentary. I’d be interested to see if you took a top, hide glued the braces and tested it, then shifted them down and tested it. That sort of comparative thing would be so concrete.
Those are some very interesting top woods. I know I've heard of a few different to words, including sycamore and Walnut. I'm definitely curious to learn of different options for the tops and sides.
So I'll be curious to hear what these sound like in an instrument.
I make my ukuleles with woods sourced locally in Northern Illinois. Black Walnut, White Oak, Crabapple, Magnolia and maple have all served me well. I have some Cherry drying for use in a few years. So I think you are a kindred spirit…
Great video. I too have always been interested alternatives to spruce for tops. I have number potentials on the shelf. Red wood and western cedar among them. Your thoughts on bracing with the idea voicing top, given the material used, was much appreciated. I'm sure you also associate this with the thickness of the top material in question. There always something to learn with each instrument we build.
I’ve been building ukuleles with maple tops for a little while now. You have to make them thinner and adjust the bracing to compensate, but they have a delightfully bright tone…
Very interesting stuff
I love what you do on your channel. I follow every post. I’m about to try my first build at the age of 54. What could go wrong😅. So thanks for all your helpful tuition and tip.
You're entirely welcome and I want to wish you a fulfilling and pleasant journey in building guitars.
I’ve built three classical guitars with redwood tops. Two from a salvaged forest floor log and one from sinker redwood. All with sitka bracing. Similar to cedar in its warmth but a little darker and very even and smooth across the strings. Probably not for everyone but I love it for its contrast to spruce and cedar.
Why didn't I know about you previously?
Love your new (to me) videos and most of all your attitude to Woods.
Here in New Zealand I've been using Kauri, (Agathis Australis) recycled, old growth and 'newly" cut. Matai, (Prumnopitys Taxifolia) NZ Cedar, (Libocedrus Bidwilli) for tops for many years now. They all work. The sound is perfectly acceptable, but different than 'traditional' woods.
The Kauri especially is a wonderful top, has nice sweet tone at low volume and plenty of headroom at the top end. As for Douglas fir, almost invariably I use it for brace wood, all recycled. It's light and extremely strong, can be trimmed and sculpted to fine dimensions while retaining it's strength. Keep thinking outside the square.
In regard to the Douglas Fir, I've seen in very old buildings, mainly Church Steeples and Bell Towers, Douglas Fir used for lintels for the brick masonry work. Sometimes it was shocking that after 150-200 years most of the wood lintels were in excellent condition. We did replace many but almost never was it many per structure. I should add that the older masons new how to keep the weather off the wood lintels by keeping them slightly back in the wall as were the brick layed on the lintel cantilevered outward 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 inches. Most of failures (wood rot) I saw were from poor painting and caulking techniques. I am now retired and miss my work very much.
Another great video Kevin. One of your precious videos on adjusting the placement of bracing to affect the tone is the best I’ve seen on you tube. Regarding the acoustic bass, I have looked everywhere for a build/tutorial series on building and acoustic bass and there isn’t one. Would be great to see yours. Fingers crossed.
I have searched for that same information and have found nothing as well. The bass I'm currently building is only my sixth, so I won't claim expertise, but your suggestion is motivating me to at least take a stab at producing some videos along the way, if nothing else, as a point of departure for others. Thanks for that suggestion.
@@thepragmaticluthier I’ll look forward to seeing them Kevin.
I built an acoustic for a friend who had no money. I used shelving boards from Lowe’s. That was 15 years ago. He still plays it. It was spruce everything. Lol.
⚓️ Thanks Kevin 🌈 Great video, learned a lot 😎
Thanks Kevin, Great video. If you could do a video sometime showing what you mean by loosening or tightening up the bracing and what those changes do that would be helpful. I am especially interested in the Doug Fir because I have that available in my area of the country and I have a few billets of it already.
Thanks for your suggestion. I'll try to bring that to fruition. Good luck and enjoy building in Douglas Fir.
The Douglas Fir has the best sound to my ears of the tops that you were tapping. Very clear bell like tone.
Iv'e not had that experience in 22 guitars over 29 years.
I have built 147 guitars to date, 22 of them Douglas Fir.
kevin, you're a breath of fresh air in the youtube luthier community! someday, i'd love to have you build a new mexico native guitar for me. rocky mountain blue spruce top, and i'm not sure which hardwood to consider for the back/sides-would love your thoughts! thanks for all your fantastic information/experience!
I'm not inclined to even sound "commercial" on this forum, but I would be happy to communicate over this issue with at a time of your choosing. You can reach me through my website. Thanks for your positive comment.
Interesting. My favorite classical guitar, made in 1972, has a top of Alaskan Yellow Cedar, (Manuel Fraquela called it High Altitude Canadian Cedar, from its appearance and grain it is the Yellow variant) very similar to Port Orford Cedar. Very fine grain, denser and harder than Western Red Cedar. Manuel Fraguela used bracing similar to what Ramirez was using in the late 60s with a slanted lower cross brace and 7 fan braces. It has good bass response, but the treble is also strong and it has surprisingly good sustain for a classical. As for top grade selection, John Gilbert often preferred A or AA tops because they had the density he was looking for. For the steel string I am building now, I took the traditional route for my first steel string acoustic and went with a fine grain Sitka top.
My local hardwood store sells Alaska Yellow Cedar, it does appear to be spectacular.
The pine and fir are amazing! They’ll probably give beautifully balanced guitars especially in the GA or concert sizes - might be a bit ‘boomy’ for a dreadnaught but I’m considering a GA sized guitar now… and that fir has a chime to it that I think would be amazing for jazz! I don’t have the facilities to make guitars but I do make my own pics out of local NZ hardwoods - and I enjoy not listening to the click of the commercial plastic plectrums; favourite is probably Rimu - followed by Kowhai (a nice creamy wood) - which both take a lovely finish! PS - that butternut is absolutely stunning….
Super informative! Find the use of alternative woods very exciting. As a paying customer, my priority would always be sound over looks - especially if it keeps the finished price down. So for me, playability and sonic appeal outweigh everything else.
Your video was awesome. I'm with you on pine. I don't make guitars yet but I am making ukuleles. As Sitka is getting harder and more expensive, I'm all for considering other options. I'm trying to focus what I make based on the tone woods present in the New England ... primarily NH & ME. I've made several pine top (Eastern White) ukuleles and I can tell you it's a beautiful tone wood. I've started the hunt to see about getting quarter sawn pine, but very few do it or just don't advertise it. Along with the pine, I have access to quite a bit of cherry. My last uke I did the white pine top and used cherry as the sides and the bottom. I also use cherry for the tops as well. The pine with the cherry is awesome. I'm not sure why Cherry has also been over looked, I suspect that it's used more in furniture building. I highly recommend it along with the pine. I'm trying to think outside the box as it's easy to get caught up in what's the flavor of the day and not considering other possibilities. Also I like to work with local mills where I can physically take my time and go through the wood I'm looking for. Though alot of people just flat saw pine, you can get quarter sawn (somewhat) when you flat saw on both sides of the pyth, usually the grain pattern is quarter sawn. Pine is very underated as a wood but yet I've seen some lovely pieces for making instruments.
Do you have a video on just voicing your soundboards? I found your testing the different woods for sound was great. It would be nice to see something even more indepth.
Great video! I'm your list.
I love your "pragmatic" approach to the different and sometimes unconventional types of tonewoods you use whether in the soundboard or the back and sides. Every tonewood is unique and has its own qualities. I realise that Adirondack Spruce is the "epitome of tone" but, I also realise that maple, mahogany, cedar, walnut, koa, rosewood, dao and even willow and others are just as relevant. Thanks for your considered opinions and innovations.
Thank you for watching my video. Your comment is deeply appreciated
The x bracing on the flatsawn is a must have!
A flat sawn top is not the text book way to orient an instrument top at all, but I'm curious. Why do you assert that an X-brace is so necessary in that context?
Seems that x bracing in this case would be superior to ladder bracing or fan bracing. You disagree?
Is my interpretation of your theory correct; that being that an X-brace on a flat sawn top will resist upward distortion below the bridge and downward above it, better than fan or ladder bracing, especially ladder bracing. There is actually very little difference in stiffness between flat and quarter sawn material, so the bracing pattern may not be of paramount importance with respect to strength. An instrument top is almost always quartered because radial shrinkage and swelling are about half that of flat sawn in any given specie. With respect to bracing patterns for steel string guitars, I have used fan bracing, but my efforts produced an undesirable tone. I'm confident that it works, but I missed the target. As for ladder bracing, I won't touch it. Richard Schneider pointed out that as a brace is rotated closer and closer to a 90 degree angle to the grain of a top, it tends to shut down the transfer of kinetic energy from its position, below the point of excitation of the string, the result being an instrument of demonstrably drier, slightly vapid tone and a recognizable loss of volume. I hope my answer has some value. Your questions certainly invite thoughtful debate. Thank you.
I have used poplar and it sounds good
I was cutting up some 90 year olf Doug Fir floor joists I salvaged from a school in California and dropped a piece on the floor. I was immediately struck by the musicality of the tone it made. I’ve asked some local luthiers if they have ever used and they hadn’t which struck me too. The sound was undeniably pleasant and it’s plentiful on the west coast so why isn’t it used more often? Still don’t have an answer and I’ve never heard a guitar with a Doug fir top still…
My grandad 40 yrs ago..made a dreadnought out of poplar and pine..he was a real carpenter ..and his guitar sounded so different
Because I have built other things out of white pine, (not instruments), I wondered why I never see it at luthier supply houses. Thank you and I think it is gorgeous.
I think you don't see Pine at Luthiers' supply companies because it's one of those "no one else sells it so we don't" situations. If enough independent builders use it, or if a manufacturer came looking for it, it would be easily available.
i like your thinking!....im using some Queensland maple ...a great timber for necks and back and sides.....the next few guitars i make will have Quilted Queensland Maple tops!!!...
That sounds like a great idea! Myself, I'm looking forward to starting a Sycamore top. I have seen and heard a guitar done with it and can't resist the temptation to try it myself.
PLEASE do the follow up vedios. I am really cuorious to know the results of the five guitars. It would be first one of its kind clasic work. Thank you such to share your inspirational ideal and ecperience!
Thanks for the encouragement. It will take several months, but I am committed to demonstrating the finished instruments and doing an objective evaluation of the results. Stay tuned and thanks for watching.
Enjoyed the video! I really liked the sound of Douglas Fir through my headphones. Have you ever thought trying something even more unusual, such as a hardwood like say curly maple? I recently watched a video of a guitar Taylor made with a maple top. I was wondering if Butternut is similar to maple? Cheers!
I'm looking at trying several different hardwood tops, possibly this winter. I have been so busy with commissions and some furniture projects in my house, I haven't had time to build myself a guitar. It's getting to be a serious problem; I haven't had a new guitar in over a year. Woe is me.
Always thought the idea of building a top out of old piano sound board was a great idea. Old pianos are free. The wood is really old. Probably old-growth. I'm sure the better pianos used great spruce. Obviously they wouldn't be two piece tops, but it's something I'll probably get around to one day. At least it would be fantastic brace wood. Just my two cents. Loved the video!
My second guitar used an old piano soundboard. That guitar was a bit rough around the edges. It has done the rounds with some local musicians due to the sound it had.
I use a lot of piano wood and it’s excellent if you are carefull
I much prefer a cedar top, but I'd be happy to try out any kind of wood to see what tones it held.
Acoustic guitar tops are the speaker cones of the guitar, just like those recycled compressed paper cones in speakers reproducing guitar music. How many people tap on speaker cones to figure out how well they will reproduce guitar sounds? Bracing is the key to finished guitar tone (you already mentioned changing bracing patterns during builds). Drive under highway bridges and railway bridges and look at the depths of the I-beams.Depth of the beam is more important to support loads (or reproduce sounds) than the tops since beam height or depth is a cubed factor in the engineering equations. A 3mm top cannot hold string tension like the 12mm braces under them, and carefully shaving those braces thinner is what many do to alter the sensitivity of the guitar sound (where 'cheap factory' guitars just use un-shaven bracing bars due to time). One example out there: the Obrien Guitars channel made a cardboard guitar and it sounded good -- not far from compressed paper speaker cone materials assuming bracing ends are fixed to the sides. Accurate thickness comparisons (and uniformity) of the tops when tapping them along with plate length and width plus with/without sound hole are the tonal variations of tapping tops alone, more so than the wood. Take a look at Marimba tuning, they gouge away wood from the back side until they hit the note they are after. Because guitar tops are so thin to start, sanding variation at three decimal places can be impactful (any thickness variation is cubed). I like your pragmatic approach and see you have some other investigative style videos on your channel I'll have to take a look at. Thanks!
As I watch these videos and glean what knowledge I can, I was happy to see you had a four piece top. Would you ever join multiple species of wood for a top?
At the age of 18, I met C.F. Martin III, who told me: "You could make a guitar top in ten pieces if you braced it right." I never forgot that and i have made tops with as many as 9 pieces. I suggest that you try whatever your imagination, intuition, and materials lead you to do. And ENJOY the experience.
As a woodworker; this is my next venture. I’ve made a new neck and turned a damaged acoustic into a 5 string; but I would like to build the whole guitar and as a new subscriber; I am impressed with your work. Also being from Michigan; I’ve thought why use the so called norm woods for guitars when this state has a variety of interesting species to choose from. Thank you for posting this and other informative videos on this subject. Take care.
Thanks for watching, Great good luck and enjoy using some of those Michigan woods:)
I'd love to see the follow-up, with the finished instruments.
Stay tuned :)
that white pine impressed me, to bad I cant afford a luthier to build one for me to play
That Douglas fir has a nice bell like tone. I'm not a luthier or a player. However, I do find the artistry of gituar making and musicians playing them fascinating. So, to the novice, what do you mean by sawn top versus split top? 2ndly, if the board is wide enough, is there any reason not to make the top from a single wide board versus two glued bookmarked pieces? I'd presume from listening to your video about laminated necks the glued 2, 3, 4 piece tops have greater stability and less chance of warpage? Thanks for these videos. You make excellent points. I think the quartersawn cherry and sycamore lumber is beautiful. Have you tried any American persimmon?
Thank you for your comment and your question. Split tops begin as billets of wood literally split from short (approximately two feet long) log sections, similar to the way firewood is split. These billets, as seen from the end look roughly like a slice of pie. The reason for splitting them is to glean a surface that follows the natural growth line of the tree as closely as possible. The billets are then sliced on a bandsaw, with each pair of adjacent slices collected as two-piece tops.
"Sawn" tops are taken from boards and planks which often have "runout". The growth lines cross the edge of the sawn board at an angle, sometimes acceptable and sometimes not at all. This happens in sawn lumber because it is impossible (and wasteful) to saw boards perfectly parallel to the taper of a log. Sawn tops with too much runout are less desirable. they refract light differently when they are re-sawn and book matched. If runout is too severe it will also affect strength but this would be a rare occurrence in sawn tops..
There are some one-piece tops available for luthierie, but they are rare because of their width. There is also an argument to be made that a one piece top is less consistent than a two-piece book matched top, that is, the growth rings in a one piece top will vary in width from sapwood to heartwood, more than a matched two-piece top, making a one-piece top somewhat less consistent in its physical and therefore, tonal characteristics.
I'm starting to feel overwhelmed by the variety of data needed to learn from each build. Species used, thicknesses, bracing patterns, and so on. Would you share what data you record from each build - or at least, what data you find most useful in helping you understand how a guitar will be affected by your build choices?
I find your videos quite interesting and even inspirational, Kevin. I'm quite glad you decided to do this. Thank you.
Thank you for this comment in particular. I've done 147 guitars to date and often feel exactly the same way and I KNOW many others do as well. I may try a video to address this very thing, but in the meantime, may I suggest that you pick, even almost at random, a point of departure within known reasonable limits of species, dimensions etc, and enjoy the process because it will serve as a point of departure your YOU personally. And most importantly, remember that it is the joy of the experience that is often greater than the end product. Lastly, refrain from thinking of building a guitar in terms of Martin, Taylor, or whoever is the big name and expert in the field. Enjoy the process and build yourself a guitar or 300.
Im a part time Kiwi hobby builder. Usually I have to use what wood I can get. I've tried a few of our native softwoods, Kauri and Matai for soundboards. They seem to work well. There are a few native hardwoods that seem to work well for backs, sides, necks, bridges and fingerboards. Thanks so much for your vids. They are very interesting and useful.
Kudos to you for using locally available woods. I'm certain that you can make some really nice guitars with them. Enjoy you building.
@@thepragmaticluthier thanks. Just been building a go bar and radius dishes this morning. Sadly im off to say goodbye to an extremely sick and skilled violin and mandolin builder this afternoon.. I have a big bandsaw and cut up my own logs. Im an experimentor. Interested in the what if.. An aging folkie musician. I've spent more than two decades teaching secondary workshop metal and wood well retutef now Thanks so much for your vids. They are really inspiring.
Great inspiration Kevin...am about to start my first scratchbuilt acoustic, after repairing them for many years. Am 68 now. Any opinion on yellow cedar for tops ? Have been told by experienced guys that it is good for back & sides, or classical. I like to experiment on steel string build. Might even try ladder bracing with top on the thin side, as the YC is pretty strong stuff. Have a soft spot for my old Harmony SOVEREIGN 1260. Wonderful unique tone IMHO. Thanks
I have limited but very positive experience with Yellow Cedar tops. I think it could be ventured that if you build within reasonably known limits of thickness and brace height, toucan't go wrong with it. Personally, I avoid ladder bracing in a top. Richard Schneider claimed that a brace placed at 90 degrees across a top, tends to shut them down. On the other hand, the Larrivee guitars are very successful and considered among the best. Go figure.
@@thepragmaticluthier Thanks for reply. I am from Larrivee country....Victoria B.C., Canada. Very successful up here ! I find the SOVEREIGNs to be amazing tone wise, but are usually bellied. Most need neck reset. I leave the tops as they are usually stable after 50 or so years. There is a school of thought where some redo them with X - bracing...not a fan. A Sovie has beautiful singing highs & muted bass. It is my preference as l do a lot of melody picking over chords, on the higher strings. Heavy bass, just muddies things up IMO. It is what it is....why change it ? Hope you have a chance to try one someday. Thanks again
thank you
Would a spalted hardwood work as a sound board? What about sapwood from cherry or walnut? Just thinking of less dense versions of US hardwoods that could have interesting tonal properties.
Spalted wood is hard to trust because it is, in reality, minimally rotted. At the dimensions instrument parts are made, i would be reluctant to trust it. It is true that sapwood is less dense than heartwood, but getting enough of it to make a guitar top would probably require an eight or ten piece top; difficult but not impossible. While I wouldn't try it, it may be an idea with contemplation and worthy of at least some experimentation.
Hello Kevin, Do you have any experience using Chechen? I have a back and sides set for a guitar in the future. Any tips on bending etc.
I have used Chechen for several fingerboards and bridges but I don't build bodies and necks from exotic woods so I have no authoritative knowledge regarding its bending properties. I does require a little patience, however and razor sharp tools will yield the best results.
You may be right they’ll have to pry my Adirondack and Brazilian Ryan signature series Nightingale from my dead fingers
Some local species I'm curious about - based on little more than the sound made by handling sticks or hewing the logs - are: honey locust
Persimmon
Mulberry
Dogwood
I admire that you heard those suggestions of music in the timber you're using. To me, and I hope you, that mean, build an instrument. You can't go wrong.
The Douglas fir sounds great. It has the kind of ring that classical guitars need. I'm glad to see the consideration of white pine. The town I live in was a white pine forest. They are being brought down regularly. Four-piece top? If it was good enough for Torres, it's good enough for me! Thanks.
Thanks for your comment, especially for the section about Torres. I think builders everywhere need to revisit this sort of information and allow it to influence their thinking.
Redwood (Coastal) makes a great classical and steel string instrument.
I have a 20 year old Norman 12 string with what I think is a cedar top. Lovely guitar. Canadian made.
I think the Norman guitars are an ancestor to the Boucher guitars from Quebec. Those are some of the finest guitars money can buy.
My first Norman was a B18 I think. Built in the late 70s. Bolt on neck. Played and sounded like a dream.
Would you consider redwood one sinker redwood tops? A classic pairing would be with many varieties of walnut…local North American woods correct?
Any variety or version of Redwood is as viable as an instrument top as any other provided that it can handle the tresses in the contact of its use. Your choice of Walnut and Redwood seems to be purely an aesthetic one and that's perfectly legitimate and to my eye, would be very handsome. If, however, you consider the instrument, its specifications, circumstances of use, and your tonal goal, Walnut may or may not be your best choice.
Wow. Haha. I had a ball sir. Deep respect for you and your craftsmanship. But I love timber and wood work .
The differences in tonal qualities is distinct. Where to brace though ? Please excuse my ignorance.
Bc I would imagine that once applied, I would think that bracing for stress reduction would change the acoustic properties of the timber ? Possibly making it worse not better. On the other hand, it may have a positive effect. How do you gauge this dance ? Is it by ‘knowing’ or by feel ? Or ?? What ? Cheers
You've brought up excellent questions that a case full of books can't answer completely or satisfactorily. There is lots of science and even more theory on the whole wood and bracing thing. In the nutshell, it's easy to imagine that a guitar top made too thick or braced too heavily will be quiet and not at all pleasing, but strong. the opposite end of the scale would be structural failure. it is between those extremes that guitar making exists.
What side and backwoods would you use for each example and why?
Back and rim material is chosen for density or hardness, then by aesthetics. At times the choice prioritizes aesthetics.
Hi PL. I’ve use poplar with great success for soundboards,
ALL RIGHT! I'll have to try that myself.
@@thepragmaticluthier according to wood database, poplar, janka hardness 540 lbft, elastic modulas 1.5million lbft.
Sitka spruce, JH, 510, EM 1.6 million lbft.
I applaud your efforts to open minds about non-traditional wood! I predict the white pine will be the loudest.
If the mass of the top is the enemy, and thickness depends on density and stiffness, then there are many species that are better than Sitka Spruce. Using the Gore formula for calculating thickness based on average values of density and stiffness for each species, species that would make better tops than Sitka include (in order):
Eastern White Pine
White Fir
Norway Spruce
Northern White Cedar
Noble Fir
Black Cottonwood
Western Red Cedar
Engelmann Spruce
Japanese Cedar (Sugi)
Paulownia
Lutz Spruce
Balsa
An impressive body of knowledge. I look forward to the day when the science, information and quantifications of Gore, Kasha, French , et al, finally dovetail neatly with the empirical and intuitive traditions of guitar making.
@@thepragmaticluthier Could you give me an example? I'm not sure I know what you mean by not dovetailing.
Unfortunately, at 360 quality video, most of it is blurry.
Your comment causes me to wonder if you would make disparaging comments about the mashed potatoes at a free Thanksgiving dinner. My apologies that what I share isn't up to your standards.
You show the tops, which is of great interest to me, but I cannot see the grain due to the low quality video. Surely it is not beyond the realms to film in greater resolution for the benefit of all? Sorry if I came across as disparaging - I could perhaps have put it better, but was so dissapointed in the visuals, I gave up watching. I am tho, subscribed and do like your content, a lot. @@thepragmaticluthier
Awesome video
How long did it take you to learn about shifting braces forward, backwards, tight or loose ect.
Virtually modifying brace patterns to suite the soundboard
It has taken 32 years to get to this point in what I presently know, but a more practical answer would be: I first took hints from Cumpiano & Natelson's book and from there, observed, listened, read and experimented. I would say to get a reasonable understanding took about fifteen years and around forty guitars. I have always found that the really important information that I benefited from seemed to be nuanced as opposed to made of primary importance in most sources. I try to make many of those points prominent in my presentations. I am certain that the learning curve is much easier to negotiate now, because of CZcams. Even though there is a ton of mindless twaddle out there, one soon learn to separate the nonsense from the good sense, just by watching and comparing notes. Good luck in your building.
Just a few more Q’s
I’m from australia so I’ll translate everything as far as measurements and money to imperial and USD cause I work with both systems.
I was finding it very hard to find a Douglas fir soundboards to import from America
I found one set from allied luthiery $125 (standard dimensions for soundboard blanks) but obviously postage from the US to australia is expensive However
I found a local supplier of Douglas fir who’s able to quarter saw and dress a board of W 8.86” x L 70.87” and 1.57” thick for $117.64
The cost I haven’t added is a kiln drying service cause they say it’s better to build guitars with the tonewoods at a moisture content of 9% and the supplier said that there timber comes in at 12% and under but they store it on the floor for a number of months
Also have you used the fir for bracing
If so how did it go
And one last thing what’s the best way to seal the end grain for storage?
From your description, the price of Douglas Fir is very reasonable. If it comes to your supplier at 12% MC, you can easily cure it for use by storing it in your environment for a few months. I don't think you'll need to seal the end grain, but common paraffin will do the job. Best of luck and enjoyment with your building:)
I have used Douglas Fir for top bracing, many years ago. I can't say within authority, what it does with respect to tone, but the guitar I used it in is now 29 years old and has been perfectly stable and I am very satisfied with its sound, taking into account that it was the 5th guitar I built.
@@thepragmaticluthier cool thanks heaps
How do you treat fir cause I’ve only worked with the classics (spruce, cedar mahogany Indian rosewood and ebony)
I know people say when you work with cedar everything needs to be slightly thicker than spruce and as far as thickness wise and bracing
What Duke Ellington said…”If it sounds good, IT IS good.”
Also to answer one question you raised…Allied Lutherie (Adam Buchwald in Vermont) has recently sold beautiful old growth Douglas Fir tops made from resawn Catholic School bleachers. Ken Parker has everything good to say about Douglas Fir. I wish I could get my hands on some of it here in Alabama easier.
If you have a high end lumber yard in your area, you may be able to buy quarter sawn Douglas Fir stair treads. If so, that's your ticket.
Im a pro woodworker and Im sorting out pine 2x4’s that are used to stack up packs of wood, need 5 of them, glue them, saw them, and then I got material for an archtop
Im looking out for knotfree, tight and straight grain, its not common
Robert Benedetto did something very similar and made a guitar that was excellent by every measure. I hope you make a great one too.
One big note on sustain - if you have a lower frequency, the sustain should be longer for the same Q factor.
Q factor measures how much energy you lose per oscillation (or rather, half oscillation if you want to get specific about it).
The thing that sets spruce apart is its stiffness to weight, which is great for volume, technically speaking, because less mass = less inertia in the instrument. That is, you can build a lighter instrument with a stiffer material, which is more important on the soundboard.
Basically, if you have two pieces of wood, and when tapping one of them has half the sustain at twice the frequency, they have the same Q factor.
But, I don't see people controlling for Q factor. Also, I saw a video by Tom Sands, and left him a comment about how he actually nearly aced his tap test, and the ones that he didn't get were so close that it was within the error range:
czcams.com/video/muk59giPra0/video.html&ab_channel=TomSands
The "master grade" ones were the least stiff per weight. Master grade seems like voodoo, and there is no mechanical standard.
Also worth noting... Stradivarius used spruce with knots in it. Knots can add character to the timbre, not just the tone.
Also your Douglas Fir sounds really pretty. Instead of loosing it up, what you should do is consider making it thinner it because it might actually be extremely stiff to its weight at that high pitched tone.
I admire your engineering expertise and It is timely and appropriate that science and engineering is amalgamated into lutherie (more than it has been to date). Hose Romanillios even said, "we have come as far as we can. Now we need the help of science." And he's right, but he also possesses the wisdom to know that quantification of efficiency, resonance, etc, cannot dovetail with the subjective definition of an "excellent sound" and that without his expertise and influence, a guitar could end up like the drawings of a swing designed by an engineer.
@@thepragmaticluthier Heh!
What's funny about my case is that I think that the science is like the classically masculine, and the subjective taste of it is the classically feminine.
I don't think we're done in our progression not only in technology, but also in terms of meaning and beauty!
That's actually become like my life's mission, to develop philosophies of harmonization of these seemingly disparate things in order to move forward in a way that is meaningful that actually integrates all that came before it.
I'm actually quite grateful that the harmonics of complex instruments is essentially an unsolved problem due to the complexity of it. It leaves room for subjectivity and mystery.
I actually would like to make the case that science can illuminate the true "best" woods based on some base characteristics like loudness and sustain, as well as give us things like blind tests to see what characteristics matter.
But after that, it's up to subjectivity.
I like your use of non traditional tonewoods. I do not agree with, Taylor and Martin, telling us we need to preserve rosewood and ebony, because they are endangered, while still using these woods on extremely expensive guitars while trying to push newer, or man made materials on the less economically fortunate, at what I would still call a premium price.
I like your channel, and look forward to more of your videos, thank you very much.
I don't think martin & Taylor are actively trying to tell the public what to buy, but tradition and manufacturer practice has created a market perception that persists, even in many small shops and in the minds of consumers. These traditional notions are breaking down at a fast pace, if for no other reason, than the increasing shortage of supply. I don't know what Martin has done, if anything about future supply, but Taylor has made terrific effort, buying land and farming Ebony in Africa and actively working to perpetuate the supply of Koa in Hawaii. The cost of these traditional materials is, I agree, prohibitive to more and more buyers, and that is a sad situation, but the present conditions cannot be blamed solely on the manufacturers. The upside is, the conditions have motivated many buyers and builders to utilize new materials and to see their value.
It seems to me that if you are going to accurately compare woods you should hold them in the exact same spot. Moving your fingers one or two mm is going to change the tone and sustain a lot. Hanging all the tops from the sound hole and tapping at the bridge might be a way to get an accurate comparison? Thank you
What I'm looking for in each top is a nodal point, a spot where the my grip does not interfere with the flexing of the plate. Try it sometime. You'll immediately hear the top shut down if you grip it on an anti-nodal spot.
The hemlock one has a heavy duty brace, wouldn't that affect the tap tone? maybe?
And the fir one has no hole! that would make it considerably stiffer and behave so.
The others have holes.
But maybe that has nothing to do with what your looking for.
Your assessment is correct in every regard. All that you mentioned has an effect on the tap response. The weird thin is that after a long term of working at this, you learn to count for all of those variables as you build a personal mental database. It's weird, it's intuitive, but it actually works.
Yes.@@thepragmaticluthier
I like using out of the ordinary woods for guitars. I have always thought that white poplar or tulip poplar would make a excellent top.
I am now completely determined to make a 100% IPE guitar due to its nightmarish hardness and intolerance to workability. It's hard to glue, and is not happy at all about bending. The only way to bend it is to fully submerge it in water for 3 days first. It is almost waterproof from the high oil content. But the tone density is incredible it rings like a glass bell. I'm doing it just beacuse someone said its a terrible idea lol. I am expecting carbon fiber type tone.
Thirty years ago, a luthier told me that Douglas Fir cannot be used for a guitar top and it was for that reason that I immediately started one. I admire your attitude and approach. Don't listen to the cork sniffers, pursue you notions. I'll bet you're going to get a really nice guitar out of this.
@@thepragmaticluthier Thanks for the encouragement. I am just the type that has to do something because someone said I can't.
It just makes it that much more challenging, and the satisfaction is two fold.
Great content sir ! I really enjoy it.
I have a cedar topped guitar, and a mahogany topped guitar. Many spruce tops, also.
The actual thickness of the top, how it's cut, and how dry it is has a profound effect on 'tone'.
Also there are 35 species of spruce, 4 species of Cedar, and at least 7 species of mahogany.
A species of wood has no tonal qualities, actually. It's the actual piece of wood that counts.
Never heard a Douglas fir top but have heard sitka with Douglas fir bracing.
Interesting. I;venever heard of Douglas Fir bracing. I'll have to give that a try.
@@thepragmaticluthier it adds depth to the sound. What I find interesting is that it feels like the guitar produces sound easier.
Would bamboo be a good material to use for a top?
I doubt it. Bamboo is a grass, not wood.
White pine was a surprise. I believe recording King uses a lot of it....White wood???
"Whitewood " is Tulip Poplar. "White Wood" is usually Silver Fir or Norway Spruce.
Martin is using sapele on their cheaper models and they sound warm.
I think that is a fairly consistent result of using lower density hardwoods for tops. I have experienced the same thing with Mahogany, Walnut, Butternut.