Avoid these mistakes when assembling armies for the Old World
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Amazing episode guys! Val, it was an absolute honor to play you at X-Planet Games, I had an incredible time and learned a ton from our game. Illusion really is a great Lore and is straight up a dragon stopper. Can't wait to face off against you again with a more balanced list. The KISS Army will return! Keep up the most excellent work you two, TOW is lucky to have ya! Cheers!
What is your army??
@@djludowici536Val tells you in the video. It’s a Chaos “KISS themed” army.
You don’t stop impetuous. You embrace and live with the chaos. You want reliability, play something else
Imagine having flavour in a game that's all about flavour. Impossible!
Also, Night Goblins don't have impetuous. It is why they cost the same as normal gobbos but have lower Leadership.
Hi guys! Im the one who played the GT list! Thanks for the mention and coverage of the tournament! The MVPs of the list were fanatics, orc boss, doom divers and itchy nuessence. Fanatics plays great into elite armies and I had the luck of facing 5 elite armies that wanted to get into combat with me. Ob on Wyvern did great by flying over the enemy and threathening flanks, his LD wasnt really needed thanks to warbanding hordes and immune to psychology units. Doom divers ability to move the template a full d3 (in any direction!) made it very accurate and an auto include in future games. Itchy neussence lowers T by d3 and is probably one of the best spells in the game since it makes elite and high T models fight on equal levels with the goblin spears and bows, aswell as being a signature(!) and lasting til the start of your next turn making it effective in two combats. The spear horde was designed to win combat against any dragon/wyvern and similar unit by having a static 6 combat res, challenging the dragon/wyvern makes the overkill 6 winning by musician, this came in clutch in two games (final vs wyvern and vs high elves). The list is super strong into elite armies, the closest game was into Beastmen who wasnt as elite as the other lists wich made the fanatics less effective. I was also pleased to to not face any armies that could outshoot me (dwarfs, wood elves etc) as goblins doesnt like to be shot at and it forces me to be the agressor wich is alot harder. And a shout out to the TOs of the old First World GT who had a great venue with beautiful tables!
Btw is there any plans on Val revisiting his old song carrier to do a meta song for the Old world? 😁
I'm turning my unbuilt AoS Warriors of Chaos into a square based army.
GET IT BABY
@@SquareBasedOldWorld Are people still running elite infantry 6 wide to get their full attacks against 5 wide blocks? I’m not sure if 6x3 or 6x4 is optimum for warriors.
12x1 ;-)
@@danieltaege3155 Oh I’m learning a lot right now that the meta is completely different LOL I’d have never dreamed of that a decade ago but I think you’re onto something there.
Thick tips, stacked heroes, and outrageously swole ranks. Make sure all of it SLAMMING into your enemy's rear to achieve ultimate victory.
(According to Rob, this comment is a certified resource.)
Mods pin this plz
I have played 9 games of old world so far all with beastmen and the most surprising mvp for me has been bsb razorgor chariots with a banner of war. A great flanker or at killing chaff. And it's increased base size helps.
I've been LOVING the machine gun Shamen on chariot. Level 4 with Ruby Ring, Viletide, one other MM from lore and Hagtree fetish. Heavy armor melts. Monsters melt. It's so badass.
@@omnivision616I’ve been playing bretonnia vs Beastmen and this guy keeps me up at night. Dude just melted an entire unit of knights on an average roll. Definitely an MVP.
@@pzeiseMy good buddy wanted to try a unit of 7 Chosen Knights. Bottom of turn 1 he had a unit of 1 Chosen Knight. He was not happy with their performance, lol. Said something about a battle report showing the knights kick ass. Asked him if the opponent had a Great Bray Shamen with Viletide and Hagtree fetish.
Just get him bound into combat, so he can't cast or ban.
As a Woodelve I have 2 cheap flyers, 2 skirmish heroes and a spell, to plant a wood in front of him. Without sight, he is not that good ;-)
So are you saying my 1000pts cockatrice division is ... Suboptimal?😮
I think it's just too much for the weak minded and those who lack the strength to do what it completely unnecessary, to wrap their heads around it.
Great show. Thanks for all you do!
Playing at the First GT against the dreaded chaos dragon my solution were putting a treevortex in its face. Couldnt see, couldnt charge. Worked for me and I ended up second.
Guys it will be lovely if you discuss the rules for "Old World: Warbands" and "Old World: Border Patrol". Are these official rules at all? I want to get into The Old World ( super excited for Orcs and Goblins) but being able to start on a smaller scale is very tempting since I am in my late 30s with kids and extremely busy so my hobby time is very limited at best. Also I am an absolute newbie when it comes to GW and other Wargames or Skirmish games for that matter. Building a smaller army might be easier to learn the rules and maybe play with my son and wife ( she is the mini painter in the family). Also if anyone has any opinion on these rules please share them.
I always enjoy watching these shows and being part of the chat. The more i watch the more tempted i am to primt an army, just not sure what faction to do....
Keep up the great work gents ❤
Love TOW so far.
And I know we're talking high level play etc, but I kind of feel its a bit weird how many I see approach list building looking for ways to circumvent specified negatives/limitations of spells or special rules though legal loop holes (such as Earthen Ramparts and Random Movement, Swiftstride into units, stacking sources of Fly etc...).
Amazing advice on the standard bearer from Val. I hadn’t clicked on that ever before but yeah perfect reasoning man. I’m going to keep that in mind for List writing!!
Wow was this a good video. Instant suscribe. Keep it up guys! I’m starting off in TOW with a vampire counts box and can’t wait to play some games
Best episode yet, up there with the terrain one. One to watch again for sure 👍
Keep it up please Gents.
Oh yes! Good to see you´re back to a show a day!
Thanks guys best esp yet . Please more tourny reports when can loved that a lot keep the great work
Really great chat guys, super interesting and informative.
Love your content miniature realms!
Have a plan, know your army and its rule's as well as possible your opponents as well. Armies win by outnumbering and flanking. Use a combination of unit's to manoeuvre for a win in conjunction with magic. Support with threats of artillery or sweeps, akka skirmishing units to your rear.
Thanks for the content. I just grabbed some boc and i have no idea how to build them or a list. All ur video's help
Amazing hot tips, guys! Bravo ;)
I can't believe Val didn't even MENTION Sir Cecil Gastonne - the awesome, affordable, monster-slaying special character from the Bretonnian list who will definitely be able to hunt-down his quarries with his MASSIVE movement of.... 4.
Also... what are treason hills?
Great episode lads! Yeah, Orks and Goblins are strong at the moment and probably one of the strongest, if not the strongest (dwarfs a very close second, toss up). It's the fanatics that are the kickers since their rules have changed in this edition. They don't just pop out when there was a threat like they used to, so you just drew them out with cheap chaff or draw them out with fast movers, but now they can now CHOOSE when they wanna come out and wreak havoc. And they hit like a brick when they do, easily to heavy armour. BUT...Like you guys have always said, there is always some sort of counter play! There are things you can do, units you can use (more so), spells you can cast to limit their threat and impact. The thing is, to beat and enemy, you need to study the enemy. Sun Tzu said Know the enemy and know yourself in a hundred battles you will never be in peril. Simple right? Know what a unit is capable of, where the threat will be coming from (combat res, toughness, WS ect..) and counter it. HOWEVER, some armies are better suited against others, you cant get perfect balance. I played against an O&G player at my local in Grantham with my dwarfs and knew what I was coming up against as I knew he played Night Goblins, which is a very popular army it seems. Basically, in a nut shell I shot him off the board with a volume of low level fire (Quarrellers) which took care of most of his chaff squids, counter battery his doom divers with cannons and funnelled his fanatics where he was forced to lose half of them to terrain (as they die). Remember, if they roll a double, they die too so 1 out of 6 wont even get out the starting gates if the dice has it's way 🙂. When he eventually got to my lines, he had nothing but low level goblins and two units of black orks that took 2 rounds of organ guns in their face. Basically, they was spent. You play to your strengths, not the enemies. Marching towards a night goblin army which has like 9 fanatics if they go full ham isn't going to go well if you arnt prepared. Dwarfs, Chaos Dwarfs, high elf's, Empire and Wood elf's can deal with this by volume of fire and keeping a semi distance. Vampire Counts, Lizardmen and skaven can just chuck cheap ass chaff at them and wont care much for like 3 point a model troops (a fanatic is 25 points). SO...There are always ways to deal with units and "things", the game has IMHO smashed that part (unlike some things in 8th) you just have to prepare for it and build your list accordingly. One list might be fanballstastic against one players build but god awful against another. So IMHO and experience against O&G, pepper their heavy but relatively squishy infantry with organ guns and thunderers (or the like), kill they squishy squids and chaff with crossbow bolts (I used rangers for this in cover) and counter their doom divers with cannons. AND ABOVE ALL, have a level 3 wizard (anvil) or smith/runelords with dispel runes as O&G have access to some really good magic. Luckily for me, magic against dwarfs is harder but against armies that don't have the inbuild resistance it will be a killer (I didn't risk it so brought the anvil). So have a plan for everything your gonna face with the information that you know, might not work out that way but it's a start. It's when you don't have a plan and just march at everything or shot at random stuff that things start to go Pete Tong. But if it's just a casual fun game with beers? Who cares right, just have fun and against O&G you always get that 🙂.
You guys missed the grand years of The Warhammer Forums ran by Alex Storch. 90% great debate from people who played each other often and lots of respect 10% typical American internet user for giggles.
"cus thats what my movement tray is" I feel that. running grave/tomb guard 6x4, but suspect the same units would work better 8x3.
Great vid! With regards to the war machine convo, I've played 3 games with cannons so far (smallish sample size admittedly) using a steam tank and a great cannon against pretty good players and they have performed fantastically alongside the engineer I bring. If you put your cannon point 10" from the back of what you're trying to hit (same as 8the edition), they are incredibly accurate and can snipe out those really powerful level 4's you guys are talking about if your opponent gets sloppy or risky trying to get a spell off or if they do something like, let's say, put their lvl 4 on a large target wyvern ;)
Do you mean sniping with the bounce? Because loner characters are immune to bounces by FaQ.
@Cerve909090 Perhaps "sniping" was the wrong word. I more meant taking out something like a solo wizard on a pegasus (which is really common).
In regards to the list that won the GT, Night Goblins don't have impetuous. It is why they cost the same as normal gobbos but have lower Leadership.
Thanks Val…I’ve been wanting confirmation that using my metal shaman on wyvern & Metal Azhag in the one list is a good idea :D
😂 I misread the title this morning when I woke up and thought we were modelling listed buildings.....need coffee ☕️ . Another amazing video guys, you were referenced on Blackhills follow up video about line hammer BTW, be good to continue that discussion?
Were we? I'll have to look. I gotta challenge LORD BLAXHILL to a game on Warhall
black orcs and night goblins are the way to go, though i would say for manoeuvrability purposes a square can be really nice (25x25 or 36x36), means if you turn 90 degrees you're still in close order formation rather than marching column, can save you a tonne of movement
One thing I've really been enjoying about TOW is that there are usually built in ways to overcome the Monstrous Infantry and Dragon issue. Monster Slayer on a sturdy foot unit gives it a pretty decent chance of slaying a dragon. Killing Blow can let you overcome the wound efficiency of ogres or certain monstrous cavalry in a huge way. The only realm I feel might need some adjusting is armies without big casters, or casters at all, being able to handle level 4 wizards. Like Khorne themed forces, where they can get some magic resistance and maybe 1 level 2 dispell, but no real way to keep up with the volume of game changing non-targetted magic that can flood the field.
Awesome video!! Thks!!
Can you share your orks list?
Can't wait to get my hands on the Dawi battalion box!
Nice video guys, I agree with many points made. As an empire player, I also ended up with spearmen blocks of 30 in 6 wide and 5 deep formations as vals goblins. Unfortunately though, I don't have fanatics and state troops have neither horde, nor warband 😀. But instead I have detachments of 10 crossbows and 10 or 15 more spearmen to countercharge and cheap sigmar priests with LD 8 or not so cheap lector with LD 9 for reroll 1 to hit and wound. About the lvl 4 magic I also highly agree, lvl 4 elementalism and lvl 4 illusion in combination sounds like a great idea and cheap as empire but I am running into the issue that many good spells target own unit and these folks don't wanna be in combat. Any specific empire listbuilding advice? In my current view, best units are spearmen, priests, outriders, cannons, lvl wizards, greatswords and demigryphs + maybe steamtank. Bowmen also look really good but haven't figured out how to best use them. One issue with wizards on foot will be to get close to enemy wizards that have cast vorteces and ran away. What might be interesting is core knight units of 5 guys with musician just running around hunting weak stuff, redirecting and screenig (5 so 2 have to be killed for panic). Flagellants is another wild card.
GT Breakdown!!! Let's get those hot tips flowing!
1:28 The OG Val episode slaps! I've said it before, it's one of the best histories of GW/warhammer fantasy on the internet. 12/10 here for a remake.
That said, really all the prequels are excellent. Going along that emotional rollcoster with you guys was wild ;)
Val is like HEROHAMMER for me!!!😂
Last game I played on Tuesday, I was Lizardmen and my opponent was Tomb Kings and brought a level 3 Liche Priest on Bone Dragon using Mortiary Cults. I sent my 80 point Skink Skirmishers, scouted, and ran around his dragon and chucked endless javelins into it, spent 3 rounds keeping his dragon in the back, lost just over my Skinks in 3 wounds, but he could not drive them off the board. Meanwhile, my Slaan, my Stegadon, and my Bastiladon spent 3 rounds firing 3 magic missiles at every unit that got close to me and almost getting every spell off because his dragon was more than 24" away from my casters. I never killed the dragon, but I won because I was picking off all of his other units including scorpions, Necrosphinx, and his other units. If I wasn't so dumb with my Saurus warriors, it would have been a blow out (but I still won).
In a 1250 point tournament tomorrow, and I am going to have up to 4 magic missiles: Slaan Mage Priest as General and BSB and has ruby ring of ruin and Unquiet Spirits from Necromancy, Bastiladon Solar Engine, and Ancient Stegadon with Engine of the Gods. Add that to endless poison from skirmishing and scouting Skinks and Chameleons and I'm not too worried about big dragons, heavy chariots, heavy calvary, or big monsters. If anything I'm concerned about is multiple big horde blocks or a Dwarf gun list with a bunch of armor. But we shall see. Hope to have fun tomorrow. But I am going to give it a whirl.
Cavalry not Calvary. Anyway- How did your tournament go?
How'd it go?
A great thing about magic missiles is that you can move and shoot and have no penalty. As long as you don't march, you can still fire your missiles and vortexes. Regular shooting generally has a -1 penalty no matter how you move (and most of the time you are firing at long range in the early game so another -1). The big disadvantage is that magic missiles are all or nothing typically (even with a level 4 wizard).
Im loving my night goblin army! I ho all NG at the moment but obviously lradership struggles. Especially first charge taking warband leadership away...
What are your thoughts on yhe razor standard on night goblin shortbow unit? Works gor combat too :)
LETS GET BASSED!!
Good video. Do you think you will see sku list/ stat check meta ??
That kind of thing is always how early metas develop. Like raptors testing an electric fence ; )
Any advice for good warriors of chaos lists? What to prioritize? It feels hard to fit in everything I want 😂
Curious, how did the TOs of the tournaments rule the situation with magic, multiple magic missiles from the same caster in the same turn possible or not? Still not sure about that since the rulebook says only 1 shooting attack per shooting phase per model and magic missiles count as shooting attack (not as shooting weapon though).
Only as deep as you are wide, except for marching order. Right?
Still early days here.
... special rules of rider that go to the mount are scary.
Vitue of Heroism (duke and hippogriph with monster slayer and killing blow) or Virtue of Temperance ... +d3 attacks and hate ... they are very strong.
Can you share a link to the video from scarey?! About the dwarfs
Hmm the Tomb Kings list of the 3rd in this GT is not legal. If its a Royal Host army the Necrosphinx can't be played and if it is a normal list a unit of Skeleton Warriors or Skeleton Archers is missing.
Finally played my first proper 2k ToW game.
Biggest takeaways -
magic is different from 8th but very strong, dispell power is needed.
the subtraction of 1d6 from 8th to ToW charge rolls has dramatically reduced the range of 'threat' that (specifically) melee infantry hold and needs to be considered during deployment and positioning throughout the game.
Multiple ranks is useless for ranged troops, instead of 2×10 handgunners im gonna switch to two 1×10 files so everyone can shoot.
Lastly its fun, i can't stop thinking about the lessons i learned and when I can play again!
Its so funny hearing you talk about movement trays and i thought... why the fuck was that never a vonsideration for me... until i realized i play wood elves and brets so i have lances skirmishers and 5 wide one rank units that dont need a tray ^^
nice seeing someone doing the exactly same things i am, my o&g list is basically a match to yours
But I'm a beautiful and unique snowflake!!
Are bows worth taking or are the points better spent on infantry?
+1 for Illusion being great. I took illusion on my high elf wizard with a s+2 ap3 chracian great blade. Spectral doppelganger spell gives 2d6 hits at s5 ap3 with that kit.
Going books deep!
"Previous edition bias" is strong out there. I've personally pretty much ditched my 5 wide movement trays. I don't think I'll ever need them in TOW, except perhaps for chaff or pure tarpit units. I've printed a bunch of 6, 7 and 8 wide trays instead. And I see many players go even wider. Aesthetically it's a little jarring to me, but that's what the TOW rules seem to encourage.
PS: Is it WhyVern or Wivvern? 😅 Perhaps a US vs UK thing?
It's pretty interchangeable. I'm English and I say it both ways.
It probably changes depending on what time off day it is more than any kind of linguistic rule.
Wye is a the name a river in wales and is pronounced why in English and the wyvern originates in Welsh myth ergo I think we use the English pronunciation of Welsh derived words so I posit WhyVern is the correct pronunciation.
@@Zaphodox Wye is not a Welsh word and is not the name of the river in Welsh - the welsh word is Gwy which is obviously not unrelated but I don't think it will get you to wyverns in any sort of a hurry. I've read before that the 'wyvern thing' round about the border is a fun way of combining the river names Wye and Severn but that wouldn't make it anything to do with the etymology.
I don't think there's anything specifically Welsh about wyverns either - sure Owain Glyndwr had one on his coat of arms in the 14th/15th century, but then the dragon on the Welsh flag is very much a dragon not a wyvern. And there are plenty of other wyverns and dragons available in mediaeval heraldry. Obviously both dragons and wyverns can still be seen if you go walking in the mountains in Wales, at least as a Welshman who lives in England that's what I tell my (English) daughters.
@@ClydeMillerWynant okay wow, I was quite far off it seems! Thank you for the detailed correction 🙂
@@Zaphodox Thanks for taking it in the spirit intended. Your post was intriguing in the first place and I'm now trying to get my head round why Afon Gwy keeps its w in becoming the Wye, but Afon Wysg loses one in becoming the Usk! Might not be any reason of course. Wyverns are a West Country symbol of sorts (though it seems that might be a more recent thing rather than a mediaeval one) and the Glyndwr thing is there along with our Welsh dragons so I don't want to relinquish Wales' claim to them completely, it just doesn't seem to be a linguistic one unfortunately as the word appears to have come from French via Middle English.
Would like to find out more about Wales and dragons in terms of history/heraldry to be honest so will have to do some research on that front. My Dwarfs are on their way to being Welsh themed, I'm trying to reclaim them from the Scots who have misappropriated them. They're based in the Black Mountains which exist in both South Wales and the Old World. Thinking if I ever get to having an O&G army (I have about a third of one, but no real plans to expand for the time being) then they might be the 'Gogs' from North Wales, we'll have to see.
Thanks for your throbbing tips, guys
Would love to see you guys do some games with TableTop Tactics. Would be a great colab and great to see the TO become the participant.
I'll be on later this month!
@@valheffelfinger6521 No way! That's amazing! Already a big fan of you and TableTop Tactics but am really looking forward to that ♥
Did you see many people being caught out by dragons (flying, large target) charging over units, wheeling then hitting the mage hiding behind the block of infantry?
Is there anywhere we can find these lists? Would really like to see the dwarf list
Best coast pairings - X Planet march 2nd. I'll try to find a link
for me better to have netters on those units, you're trading 5 bodies in each unit but the survivability goes up massively, so many match ups where you benefit and straight up beat much superior opponents due to them
Fanatics are now powerful - as you can launch when you want - x9 fanatics is very scary.
And they can’t be targeted by shooting or magic. And then can’t have a unit walk over them to kill them. Stray templates, terrain (and I assume doubles on a dice) are the only ways to stop them. I feel like GW need to fix them.
@@andrewj1754 vortex spells should kill them as they are considered difficult terrain.
At what point must you have a level 4 caster? If doing escalation, is level 2 enough?
keep up the good work🎉
Thanks 💯
deep doive amazing content
Hey guys! Great content. Been soaking it up as our local wargaming community finally has 4 players so we're gearing back up after a long hiatus.
One thing I cannot find in the rulebook is a direct restriction or guidance in regards to characters, joining units, unit types or these interacting. Please can you help me understand where I can find how these do or do not interact.
Thanks again for your great content covering old world 😁🥳🥳🥳
Check out the characters and unit section of the rulebook. Also many universal special rules were errata'd to clarify how they interrupted when characters join units.
As a dwarf player my current metta tax is two runesmiths with 5 dispell runes and 4 bolt throwers all with the rune of skewering for strength 7 no armor saves.
Magic resistance and raising casting values don’t seem to matter when a lvl 4 wizard is throwing out casting rolls of 11 on average. Having a veto let’s you feel involved a little, while they last.
55 points to upgrade a runesmith to lvl 2 dispeller does not seem great. He can buy more runes but still can’t take both the anti magic runes. The anvil is probably the way to go but I don’t want to go there.
That’s enough artillery to make an engineer a probable auto-include as well.
Just rolling to hit no artillery dice required seems very good. BS 3 but not usually long range and engineer rerolls’s 1’s once per phase. Not amazing but consistent. Damage 2 is also solid.
4 bolt throwers hitting on 4’s wounding on 3’s gives you a wound and a half before ward save and regen which gives you not very much. Damn I talked my self out of it. Sounded good for a minute.
I wanted to love my long beard brick for core but the only special rule I cannot give them is stubborn. Which bothers me.
Longbeards giving reroll panic is cool but autopassing panic for 15 points on a runesmith is ice cold. Which are already in the list anyway.
The longbeards are getting strapped up and are now rangers.
Two units of 10 dwarf warriors with shields to round out core. Extremely necessary screens.
So that’s like 1200 points to make me feel like maybe I can play the game at all.
On top of needing an anti magic investment plan and being able to pretend to have an answer for dragons you also have to force the initiative and make the enemy come to you.
Having to march into a gun line and / or getting kite’d just can’t happen. Needing the artillery advantage seems like an unfortunate truth to me.
Irondrakes jump off the page for needed threat projection but you probably also want a melee character and maybe a gyrocopter or two and now you’re over points.
That’s the list!!
Cheers
The Tip joke got me with my guard down 🤣
Interesting what the TO from Sweden said about the perceived TOW problems. (Linehammer, dragons, etc) Literally, last night, I just decided I wasn’t going to care about these things, and see how things work out.
good video but legit question, how are you supposed to tarpit a Dragon? It can pick its fights since it flies and now that units disengage between rounds it only has to win one combat before it can fly off and kill something more valuable
when he attacks one of your tarpits or you attack him with a mobile unit that tags him for one round so that you can brng in a tarpit.
Example: spirit hosts attack dragon, dragon cant win combat due to ethereal rule, you are able to bring in zombies and increase the zombie unit every turn, so that he is fixed in place.
Or your tagging unit is already a tarpit (like Spirit Hosts or similar in a good sized unit). Many players cheap out on magic weapons on dragons, so you can easily tarpit a dragon or similar unt with ethereal units
What’s the thing Val was talking about the lowers the enemies toughness?
I've forgotten it's name, but it's a spell of Mork which is an option goblin wizards can take.
I respect you pointing out that the GT winner said that Dragons/Lines/Vortexes weren't issues... but he did run 9 fanatics, which I think are one of the biggest other areas that people are starting to look as a point of contention! And possibly one of the few faction specific ones. They hit so hard and many armies simply have no counterplay to them, so I can see why. Time will tell!
Sorry for the confusion. It was the tournament organiser who said that and Val didn't win the event either
Here’s a few tips for dwarves:
-Artillery is generally bad, and runes don’t do much to improve it. One piece may be justified but don’t expect it to wipe out units (unless those 5 knights give your cannon the flank, and in that case it’s the opponent fault).
-Rangers and Irondrakes are great because of BS4 and high strength. Irondrakes come with the added bonus of having a cannon included striking at BS5. Those are the replacement for your artillery. Just make sure to deploy in a way that maximizes your line of sight because moving ruins your shooting.
-Miners are great, they allow you to threaten the enemy back line (so their warmachines…) and/or their flanks.
-gyrocopters are good to slow the enemy down or deflect charges. You may be able to hunt down skirmishes with them but they are almost always going to be more useful as shields for the core of your army.
-Longbeards aren’t great for their cost. You are better served by an equivalent unit of warriors.
-You can make decent characters but nothing that can compare to a dragon. And even your best fighting king is not going to be able to fight anything of value if the enemy doesn’t want to engage him.
-You NEED magic defense. You are not great at it. The best you can do is an extremely costly IMMOBILE character who is susceptible to cannon fire (tip: if you deploy an Anvil of Doom, you want a rune of preservation on it) and is only lvl 3. Fortunately you can mitigate the problem with runesmiths acting as caddies for runes of spell breaking.
-Slayers are just bad, both the troop and the characters. The only use they can have is defending a flank but don’t expect them to actually slay anything.
Wow. If I go by your review and wouldn’t play Dwarfs.
You can make Dwarven character T10, meaning a Star Dragon only wounds him on 6+
@@marcusflutist1230 there’s quite a lot of ways to get around T10, and if you go that route your character has basically weak saves with underperforming melee. Last but not least that character is extremely easy to avoid
What about an artillery/canon park not trying to shoot the super tough dragon? Use strong magic to slow and delay it (like those illusion spells) and use the artillery to go for other things in their army. Maybe more viable? Good discussion generally too. I’m pondering what army to go for and likely buy an paint up my first Warhammer army for decades before playing the game.
well you either shoot the dragon or disablethe dragon (by magic or blocking). fiighting a dragon in combat will likely result in a net loss for you.
but yes, due to T5-7, good armor and high W, shooting at monsters with anything except artillery is kinda worthless.
Every army should have something in their repertoire to kill a big bad enemy model or at least stop it from participating in the game.
When you take the dragon out of the game, your opponent immediately looses about 1/3 of his points, so the remaining force is significantly smaller and less capable than yours.
Big Models like Dragons have always been a trade off. They must perform, or you handicap yourself with them.
The video actually starts at about 52:15
Isnt the unit widths laid out in the rules? I thought 5 wide was all there was.
With my Wood Elves I developed what I call "The Wizard Whacker". I personally only bring a level 2 wizard as I want a Glade Lord on dragon, so the wizard whacker is my answer to a lot of magic.
It is a Waystalker with either The Bow of Loren or Swiftshiver shards with A Muster of Malevolents. 2 strength 4 shots at BS7 and then d3 strength 2 hits for each of those shots that hits. Unless they are on a Dragon or some other wild monster its a 37 inch bubble of 2 strength 4 hits and 2d3 strength 2 is killing a wizard in mostly 1, sometimes 2 turns.
Would those wizards not just join units and then look out sir it all away? That's my current problem with the waystalker
@FATEWEAV3R Very true! I use the mobility of the dragon to try and hunt if they join infantry blocks. Wizards in units I find are a lot more unwieldy and I can stay out of threat range.
My meta is also dominated by wizards on flying mounts like Pegasi,manitcores, magic carpet, etc.
It's not a perfect solution but I find a lvl 4 and a dragon is just too difficult to take for elves.
@@collinl5023 I've been running dragon + lvl4 + shadowdancer with reasonable success. Might have to give the waystalker a go though. Do you run waywatchers too or not bother?
@@FATEWEAV3RI run 10 waywatchers. I used to think they were too expensive but they bring so much for their points. I play a super shooty MSU style list with 4 treekin, my dragon, and 2 units of 8 wardancers being my only melee.
New player here. Asking around but havent gotten an answer, for dragons (specifically dragon mounts) does the armour apply to the rider? Since the mount gives wounds and toughness i wasnt sure how that applies or if you are forced into taking your highest ac.
Yes! Armour will also stack with armoured hide
Pretty sure for monster mounts you have to choose between the rider or the mount's armor.
@@rohrvg that makes sense imo. So you could let a wiz have no armour on a dragon and use the armour value of the dragon to make up for the wiz's innate lack of ac?
@@SquareBasedOldWorld This is incorrect as Dragons do not possess the armoured hide special rule.
Thanks for explaining that every unit can serve specific purposes in different armies and playstyles. I feel like this is being lost on people who are just stat comparing. Play games! That's how you find out what works for you, don't watch a bat rep and base everything on someone else's playstyle and preferences. Also read the BBB and your armybooks. I keep seeing people ignoring army composition rules and just blindly following what some influencer says is good. Play games and practice, your list building will sort itself out.
i do think aos handles magic better. caster level is number of spells you can attempt to cast/dispel per turn, no automatic bonus to the casting or dispelling roll. Two single casters are then more or less equivalent to a single double caster. you still need to think about magic defense, but there isn't the same 'level 4 or nothing' feeling.
I feel like magic is the elephant in the room for what is otherwise shaping up to be a great system. Magic’a main strength seems to be towards a control play style and denying your opponent from interacting with the game. And when the magic phase has been set out as either a weighted coin flip if you’ve brought your level 4 or horrible game of odds if you haven’t, you are entering a world of none interactive game play that just feels kinda bad. At least that’s my take. I’m looking forward to seeing what the future holds and how people handle the magic phases in the future.
Should Goblin Fanatics fall under the "Rule of 3" being able to take 9+ is very powerful, considering how much damage they do for 25 points and how much more difficult they are to counterplay in TOW?
Yes. Fanatic spam is not fun to play against
You can have 9 fanatics because you can have 3 units of night goblins and they are just an upgrade to those units. The best solution for fanatics is to revert the changes and make them automatically released or at the very least be released on a 4+ when an enemy unit is within 8’’.
OnGs are mediocre overall, don't handicap them even more
@@user-tc9sk4ei9yO&G are one of the best armies out there. They are cheap and have extremely good infantry and magic for their cost. Their weaknesses have been greatly diminished or even erased with this edition. Their only real weakness is not having a super powerful ridden monster like some other armies have but magic can help mitigate the impact of such units.
Any link to the social contract video post? Thx
I really have to make it first!
@@SquareBasedOldWorld I was referring to the scarry video that Val was talking about; and Possible link to that video thanks again love the content
Hey people of youtube, quick general question, should hero points be maxed out ?
I understand it is a silly question that is highly contextual, but in general are heroes strong ?
I get that a level 4, a GHB is almost mandatory, but can I have fun with my foot heroes and some spicy missile heroes or should I just add more meat ?
Small nitpick, that O&G list that won the GT is technically illegal, the orc warboss on Wyvern has to be the General, as he's the highest leadership model in the army. The oddnob is Ld 7, Warboss on Wyvern is Ld 8.
Im the one who played the list. It was a list error that was left from the first edit. The warboss was played as the general all tournament.
Glad to hear it was caught! Hard to remember all the weird little details in such a complex little game lol@@timnordin3091
1:30 how about 2 dragons! ;]
Not yet convinced that the game is "deep" in the way that chess is. Could be that there seem to be a lot of options, but at a competitive level they may reduce down to something that isn't especially fun or dynamic. But until more tournament data comes out there won't be any way to know
Val…did the Shaman on Wyvern get used in combat?
I don't think I've committed him once yet. Though he's definitely a piece to be considered in the late game
Can anyone link the altdorf press blogspot page? Couldn't find it in the webway...
thealtdorfpress.blogspot.com/
Why arent more of these episodes making it to Spotify? :( That's my preferred platform
I'll do so today c
@@SquareBasedOldWorld Based.
Square based.
Magic needs to be toned down to where you can get away with not bringing a lvl 3 or 4 and heroes reduced to 25% of you army IMO. They aren't critical issues but they are kind of restrictive issues. It would be nice to be able to bring more units and fewer monsters and magic and still have it be competitive.
Large targets cant see over other units . (Regarding the ruby ring of autoinclude on a wyvern)
"A model can draw line of sight to a model with this special rule over or through other models, and vice versa". What about this rule stops Large Targets seeing units over other units?
@@cormacgeraghty1710 other units can see it. But the vice versa might allow it to look back 🤔
Uhhhh. Yes they can? Read the whole paragraph and Hollar back. They can see over models, just not terrain
@@SquareBasedOldWorld the vise versa part conffused me
1:04:00 which elemetalism spell gives You -D3 to T?
Lol oh man so many bad things in this video. I'm just guessing but I assume I was talking about itchy nuissance which is not an elementalism spell, but could be taken by a goblin shaman w elementalism
@@SquareBasedOldWorld Itchy Nuisance (Signature Spell)! Nasty as hell. -D3T...
First off, love the content, don't wanna come across as negative.
Rob, you keep saying about veteran "why aren't you near your general", but veteran let's you reroll all leadership tests while the general just lets you use his leadership, which might be the same or only 1 above others. Also these buffs can be combined. Does a general allow rerolls?
The reroll feels the same as being near the general for the higher leadership and BSB. its not negative you are asking why im not expressing it in more detail and thats fair and ill work on it for ya x
The night goblin chould have evaded the pursuit move.
This is actually a great point. However! Because I bunged it up and we ran out of time the only fair way to conclude was to wind up after t5
just a quick point on pursuit into a character regarding your night goblin shaman, you can evade on an initiative check enabling your character to move his movement characteristic to avoid being pursued in to.
Could you make like a 15-minute summary of this? 😜
no
I wanna play Wood Elves so dang bad lol one unit is 100+$ USD lol
Okay, so line hammer wasn't a problem, neither was dragon hammer.. are we sure single model spam hammer is a problem? If it is, why? What makes it different?
It's a concept called activation lock. Essentially when you overwhelm an opponent with too many targets, they literally don't have enough interactions to deal with it. It genuinely breaks games, and you'll note, that's why it's the only thing we advocated comp for.
The other items were also noted early on, they just were not as obviously meta destroying. The single entity spam timeline was largely averted. It's a logical fallacy to assume that because the other two are fine, the third must be ok too.
Also it should be noted that the other two aren't "fine" either ... in the sense that they're ideal game states most folks would wish for. There's just counterplay available to them that doesn't involve also having to commit to the exploit. You can solve for T6 and linehammer in a number of ways, but they're still turn offs for many.
@@SquareBasedOldWorld Thank you for the explanation. Okay, so, not trying to be a youtube thug, genuinely learning and respect the wisdom being shared. 'Activation lock' sounds like an issue where units kite - I cause some damage then avoid you and you can only charge one thing a turn per unit thus never make back the points difference? This would be more of an issue if the single units have range threat though, wouldn't it? Like spamming min sized wood elf skirmishers who do chip damage and run away. Single combat only pieces need to fight. I ask because I have 20 razorgor that I really want to use (i know i can't fit all 20 in a list) because the models are great (not GW models). I got these models for AoS (knowing they suck) and I'm rebasing.
I don't want to be 'that guy'. My pig'o'lanche desires aren't based in being super competitive. If I drip feed pigs and run away, I don't see how I'd win because I loose more points than I gain (activation lock needs to win a points margin lead before the 'lock' happens? i.e. enough of a lead that you cannot kill enough to catch up). To that end - setting up a 'lock' would require tactical play wouldn't it? Also, I'd likely need to send multiple pigs into a unit to do enough damage to make their sacrifice worth while, which would mean the unit gets to fight multiple pigs.
Maybe it's hope but I want to run pig spam and I don't think I'd be breaking the game as getting an 'activation lock' would require a tactical game with my opponent interacting - I also don't want to be relegated to 'casual only' no tournament scene and get accused of being a power gamer. If I'm straight up wrong please help me understand.
So, if I understood the thick advice correctly, your length is limited by your girth?
Blood flow also essential