why MAGIC USERS are more interesting than magic systems
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- čas přidán 17. 10. 2023
- a discussion breaking down why you might want to focus more on the people using the magic rather than the magic system itself
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books referenced in the video (affiliate links):
The Way of Kings by Brandon Sanderson - amzn.to/3PeufC5
Foundaryside by Robert Jackson Bennett - amzn.to/3sNezxU
Lightbringer: The Black Prism by Brent Weeks - amzn.to/3Fl1grC
The Fifth Season by N.K. Jemisin - amzn.to/45M1Eei
Elantris by Brandon Sanderson - amzn.to/3S2no1u
The Name of the Wind by Patrick Rothfuss - amzn.to/44RbhY2
Mistborn: The Final Empire by Brandon Sanderson - amzn.to/44TYpQX
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Adventure Time has an interesting magic system based on "Magic, Madness, and Sadness" or MMS. While it's not a magic system with hard defined rules, the relationship of Magic to Madness and Sadness adds an interesting layer of 'cost' to magic. The more Madness and Sadness you have, the more capable you are at Magic- the weaker your grip on reality is, the easier it is to manipulate reality. The show doesn't lean too hard on the magic system for storytelling, but it's interesting to see how the dynamic of MMS is explored in characters like the Ice King. The Adventure Time magic system wouldn't be half as interesting if it weren't for its magic users!
Ive always loved this sort of idea. In order to gain control over the building blocks of the universe you need to give up control over something else. Almost like to fit something new you have to make room
@@Barely_Here "to fit something new you have to make room" is a concept that is explored in the webnovel Worm.
One of the protagonists has the ability to empower and communicate with dogs (basically she can turn dogs into the Hulk). An important distinction is that she doesn't CONTROL dogs, she just communicates with them particularly well.
A large part of her struggle is that the part of her brain that processes body language was rewritten to "dog" when she got her powers. If you smile at her, she thinks you are baring your teeth in aggression.
Makes sort of sense for a magic system. To be strong at magic, a force which denies reality, one would have to not be too heavily attached to it and reject it.
@@leyrua Worm is probably one of my favorite pieces of fiction for it's incredible power system alone, not to mention the dialogue. Started the series because of the Alexandria threat quote
Love how it makes sense considering that the multiverse was conceived by the thoughts of primordials like Golb
I'd classify Harry Potter's system as a same-y soft magic system because everyone can theoretically learn the same spells, but there's no consistent way spells in general work. They can be tied to objects (time turners), creatures (whomping willow), casted wandlessly, soundlessly, etc. Magic generally does whatever the plot needs it to do
When you talk about Hard/Soft systems is not about if they make sense or not, is if they have defined rules or not. And Harry Potter has a lot of rules even if they don't make sense.
Yeah Harry Potter has a lot of rules, but even in the books themselves the approach to magic is that a spell will come into existence when someone cares enough to make it. The Laws seem to be more a matter of these are all the ways we have failed to make X happen. And with the Exclusion of being able to conjure good lasting food, we have seen most of the mentioned ones broken. Wandless Magic can be performed by the powerful. Snape and Voldemort performed unsupported flight, the Philosopher Stone Allowed you to produce gold. And Harry came back from the dead. Sure he was only mostly dead, but I don’t think the academics would care
Harry Potter's softness makes it fascinating as a kid where there are all these loose ends flapping around like wand materials and whatnot, and frustrating looking at the series as an adult.
Staying on wand materials, the existence of the Deathly Hallows reveals that there is a wand that cannot be defeated in a duel, meaning wands in general can have power levels. IIRC it's also revealed around the same time that Harry didn't stalemate Voldemort in their duel strictly because he had enough force of will or his mother's love or whatever but because he and Voldemort's wands were twins, and therefore equally powerful, so apparently wand power is actually this really important thing. Yet it's also established that wands pick their user and generally one wand will match one wizard with rare exceptions- except the Elder Wand works for whoever takes it. And then there's this whole mystique over how wands are made of different materials and just the right material combination makes a wand attune to the individual based on their personality or soul or whatever- But this is apparently irrelevant because we never see where this affects a single thing or where wands have any feature besides relative strength, meaning some wands are simply strictly better than others and most people are assigned a "power level" when casting spells that they cannot change (unless they steal or inherit the Elder Wand) as soon as they get their first wand, even though this runs counter to themes elsewhere in the books.
Or what about Patronus? Each wizard has his own guardian spirit of a sort, but the identity of that spirit doesn't actually matter. It's this strictly cosmetic thing that is implied to have a lot of significance and then shown to have none at all.
@@jamesrexus8555 Harry Potter does not have a lot of rules. The only "hard" rule for most of the series was "magic cannot resurrect the dead," but even this was flouted when the Hallows were introduced. The places where it appears to have rules are often outright contradicted elsewhere, and are always arbitrarily introduced to help the plot along, like the rules in the Fairly OddParents.
I think you'd struggle to find a single setting with magic objectively softer than Harry Potter's, so you are effectively arguing that there is no such thing as a soft magic system. Absurd.
Harry Potter has clearly defined rules. You can't make food from nothing, you can't bring back the dead, you can't make money from nothing. And time travel was more because the government has banned.
This is a big thing LitRPGs struggle with in general, a cool fleshed out system but an almost pathological focus on - with the characters having little to no real subtleties. LitRPGs always feel brilliant when the world building and system building is getting its exposition - but the character and plot writing makes them a struggle to finish long term. There are probably a few partial exceptions.
Ever hear of The Wandering Inn? I've not gotten far into it myself, but what I know of it indicates that, though it has a fleshed-out and important magic system, the characters, plot, and cultural worldbuilding have center stage.
I’m sorry but what’s a litRPG
@@Betito1171 it’s a work of fiction where the setting follows a set of rules that resemble a game, or, often, the setting is a game. Beyond that description, there’s a ton of diversity in the litRPG genre, with sci-fi and fantasy both being common. I’ve also seen quite a few post-apocalyptic settings, and at least one Western. I really like it when it’s done well.
@@Betito1171 imagine you (and a lor of the times everyone else) gets a game like systems (this is where they differ a lot, from what and how many stats they have, to what they do, do you have a number for hp/mp or not, how u lvl up, gain stats/ skills / classes etc.). A lot of the time this game-like system comes like an apocalypse where earth is restructured or fused with other planets that have their own newly inducted populations. Alternatively the MC basically gets isekaied in another world where the system has been present as far as ppl remember, like the original commenter said a lot of the time the RPG part is more fleshed put and interesting than the LIT (for literature) part, so u get a system/ world that you really like but the characters can be bland because the author didn't care as much about them, if u want i can give u some titles to check out
I’d give Dungeon Crawler Carl a go. Characters are great, and legitimately funny too.
"Eliminating stakes rather than navigating them" is an eye-opening statement that I'm going to use in my lexicon. Thank you 🤝🏻
Cursed energy seems to be one of those that’s both hard and soft. Because cursed techniques seem to be rigid at first but there’s a ton of room for creativity and flexibility and a lot of stuff that’s kept vague on purpose.
i honestly think thats just props to the author where its not also soft he just doesnt give them abilities that they cant be creative with it. And if they cant be creative he used them up earlier in the series to where you dont need to be as creative
And how a character's power is directly related with their personality, mental state, and development. A strong sorcerer, means a well developed character. So the power progression is more of bursts of power instead of a daunting grind
I guess it’s using softness in the details but pretending like it has defined rules.
My useless 2 cents
Cursed energy has few rules
And everything else is game.
Todo is, to me, represent what master sorc is because he is not fighting a magic battle. He is playing chess using curse.
Toji does the same thing, he finds the limit of the power but then brute force his way through it. Less grace
Sukuna is too skilled and too powerful and on top of that, bored as hell. Which makes his fighting style boring. Its like watching somebody solving a tedious puzzle but not complicated.
The "Same Soft" strikes me as the occult, such as Tarot. There are rules. Each card means something, but it's stil up to the reader of the cards to interpret how they cards work together.
Oooh that's a really cool way of looking at that category! My mom does a lot of tarot, so this is an amazing and memorable way for me to think about it. Thank you for sharing!
Wait.. does that mean pokemon could be considered same soft? Lol, love the tarot aspect though, that definitely helped it click into place for me
@@dune116Maybe? I would say it would depend on whose perspective you’re looking from: the trainer’s or the pokémon’s? If from the trainer’s pov, it could be same soft (or same hard). But if from the pokémon’s, then it becomes hard diverse, the exact opposite, because of the mass variety of pokémon that exist.
I think "Psychic Powers," from "Mob Psycho 100" are a good example of a soft/same magic system, masquerading as a soft/diverse system.
The protagonist is a phenomenally powerful psychic and he's shown to be able to use his abilities the same way as all the other psychics supposedly unique abilities -- the protagonist showing how all of the powers are just different manifestations of the same force through his phenomenal power and dexterity with it unites the many varied psychics on display and it can be thought of in a sense that the only reason he has that degree of powers is to explore that soft magic system through him, and how it comes out to so many ostensibly very different permutations.
He is the Tatsumaki of his universe, on a weaker scale, because Tatsu is sinister, but he uses a very powerful base that reaches users who have given a personality to their powers, the Mob as a user with a shy, gentle and simple personality who has a neutral psychic power that blows away everyone else with their more defined personalities.
@@giulyanoviniciussanssilva2947 tatsumaki isnt sinister wdym
That was the first thing that came to mind too.
@@Azriel_MR She's a brat in desperate need of correcting
@@giulyanoviniciussanssilva2947 Mob is simple, yes, but his personality is by no means neutral or weak.
I'm a firm believer that in a power system, especially one involving magic, that a character's personality and powers should be linked.
Have a compulsive liar: illusion powers. Stubborn an unyielding: earth powers. Fears death and wishes to be a healer: Sucks to be you I chose you to be the ironic main character who's powers greatly contrast with your personality and desires: Necromancy.
instant conflict. i love it!
AtLA did this to a T.
what's a compulsive lair I swear you made that term up
@@itsoracle Liar, dyslexia and autocorrect are not a fun combination.
That's an overused cliche, it would be better if the character personality was the opposite of their power
IMO I might classify Star Wars "The Force" as Quadrant 4. The system is incredibly soft, and while there is a diverse range of abilities they all fall under the same kind of "The Force" umbrella and everyone who has "The Force" can do basically all of the same things, and none of those abilities is deeply explained. Depending on what you're watching - feature films vs Clone Wars vs Ahsoka - the dot might move up and down the diversity line but I'd still put it in quadrant 4.
Your videos are pure video gold btw! Thank you so much!
Eh, depending on the source it's actually fairly hard. It's just got a lot of mysticism to make it seem more ephemeral and flowy.
Easy (though not perfect) test for softness is "Can a character skilled in this power do x" and just play around with some fairly standard super powers before slowly spiralling out. The further you get the softer it is.
So, can Yoda or Sidious use the force to punch things super hard? Yep. Tank being punched through a building? Not really... Can they fly? No, jump good. Can they teleport? Not outside of potholes and being ghosts. Materialise objects? Hard no. Directly raise the ambient temperature in the room? Sidious could technically use lightning I guess. Freeze water into ice? No. Grow to twice their size? No.
Can they do most of the stuff that would normally fall under the category of PSY/ESP powers? Yep.
The force is fairly hard on what it's limits are in both trilogies, and is pretty consistent even within a good chunk of the EU content (at least, the good EU content) with only a few breaks for spectacle in stuff like Force Unleashed...
That's a good point. I would also argue the Force is more on the hard end of the spectrum. It has soft edges, but the core of it is pushing a pulling stuff, so it's hard.
@@theapexsurvivor9538 Personally, I think a skilled enough writer could plausibly expand The Force to encompass all of those abilities and more. There aren't any hard rules about what the Force can and can't do, really. I'd say it's soft for that reason.
I was going to say the same thing thank you!
@@theapexsurvivor9538 Had a whole long thing, deleted it. Short version: the Force has clearly delineated powers- some telepathy stuff, telekinesis, visions, jump good- yes, but it's not just layered in mysticism for the feel, it is mystical. The Force is a soft system not because it has no boundaries, but because such boundaries are thematic and emotional, not clearly defined by some list of rules. Yoda's mysticism, "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter," is the point, not the dressing.
For the 3rd quadrant, a lot of mythologies fall into this. There are so many myths about characters with fun quirks, all bc of a soft magic system. Meleager from Greek mythology had his soul tied to a piece of firewood such that if it burned, he would die. The hindu demon Raktabija had an ability where every drop of his blood, upon touching the ground, would summon a clone of himself. Sun Wukong is one of the most powerful characters in any mythology and he can't swim. it's really fun to play around with.
Also, for the 4th quadrant, look at the wizards from LOTR. Gandalf and Saruman have basically the same abilities despite wizardry being a soft magic system. Directly on the x axis are magic systems which are both hard and soft magic systems, or at least to us. As you mentioned, Hextech is hard magic to the Arcane characters but it's soft to us. Wizardry is hard magic (leaning more to the center) to harry potter characters but it's soft magic to us. The perspective is also interesting to play around with.
I had no idea Sun Wukong couldn't swim that's amazing
All of those mythological examples aren't exactly soft, and you explained why. There's a rule each of those characters follow with very explicit costs and limitations. What's soft might be what other magical things can exist and what can't, but that's more of a product of mythology being fluid. The religions these mythologies followed often had some level of structure. Such as Greek Gods, like all other beings, are subject to fate, and no amount of using their power can get them out of it.
@@Xx_Oleander_xX that's where Shah Wujing ("Sandy") the water ogre comes in. He may be the least powerful of the magical beings of the group, with even the pig demon Zhu Bhajie being cited to have more transformation powers (to my knowledge) and also a team member with very little special focus... but that man is dependable as all get-out and carries his weight (and sometimes, others') all around.
@@jurtheorc8117 I seen a summary of Journey to the west years ago. I vaguely remember Sandy.
@@Xx_Oleander_xX The best summary I can give of Journey to the West is that it's basically the first ever D&D campaign, and Sandy is the cleric of the group.
This guy made an insane video about magic systems and casually dropped some of the best advice on stakes I have ever heard.
“Don’t eliminate stakes, navigate them”
DUDE. MY THIRD EYE HAS JUST BEEN OPENED.
4:11 Couldn't Harry Potter potentially fit in the bottom left same-soft quadrant? Every wizard in Harry Potter is theoretically able to access the same spells with a lot of practice; they have different styles for sure but any wizard can do the same spell as any other. And then it's a relatively soft system - Rowling fully fleshes out the society surrounding the magic, but not the magic itself. It would strike me as the best example for that quarter.
Unless you count other types of magic like what the house elves use. Or what the different monsters use.
As well individuals have their strengths and weaknesses when it comes to magic in the potterverse. Neville was great at herbology but not so great with spells ( at least until the end when he became pretty badass)
This is what I thougt too. There are mutliple magic systems in the book, but the wizard's spells at the least are basically this. They hypothetically could each do that magic--and that magic *could* be anything. So we have no explaination, it's based on needs of the story mixed with a sense of mystery.
But the other magic systems in the books might not be that.
The magic system is very messy, but when I was a teen I definitely felt it was fun to guess what might exist in this world. If Ghibli is pure wonder I think that quadrant is Pure Intrigue
I would say that she doesn't detail the system too much There were some things that I only accepted happened because wizard 2 is more sinister than 3 👹
But I haven't read the books and I would like to know how to create magic and apply it to the tool that is the wand, this would be an aspect that would help in building the system and the user itself But I, who only saw them in the movies, only saw them using their ready-made spells.
@@MyAramilyeah but that's not cause it's a magic system that's because people aren't good at everything. For something to be a function of the magic system it has to be inherent to it and not just a clear parallel to kids not being good at everything in mundane school.
It also reminds me of Stands from JoJo's Bizzare Adventure. Each power set is tailored to the characters which explores aspects of their personality.
i came across you by accident and i'm very thankful for that since you have helped me with flesh out my magical world so that it is much more "alive" and actually functions. thansk
glad i could help 😤
I would have to say the same. I've been really thinking on how to put magic into the world were it makes since but make it clear the main character doesn't under stand as he uses blood magic types.
For the same-soft magic system, I can think of one example:
-"Silvertounges" (this is just one possible name for the power) in Inkheart/The Inkworld. These magic users are people whose love of stories(?) grants them the ability to bring people, creatures and objects out of books and other pieces of text. In the Inkworld, there are some lose rules around how the magic works (to change a story, the author has to write the piece of text that is read, or the person writing an addition needs to only use words they know are present in the original text that world came from) but these seem to be mostly invented by the characters, and are easily bent or broken-the characters are just as clueless about their powers as we are.
Any Inkheart fans liking this? 🤗
4:11 I think the force in Star Wars fits this quadrant. We know that all force users have some level of telekinesis, but we get to episode 6 and now the Emperor is shooting lightning from his finger tips with zero explanation.
Episode 1 comes out and the Jedi are now able to do a 'force run'? Oh, forget it they don't use that ever again.
And there's so many other examples: The Night Sisters can do whatever the plot needs them to do, in EP 7 Kylo Ren can now freeze a blaster shot mid air(?) Luke can project an illusion of himself to the other side of the galaxy, but they killed him off to avoid all the questions this power would bring in the next movie.
And that's all without mentioning all the times the writers make the characters forget the force is a thing, because they would have to actually work and think of a way to put these weird warrior monks with superpowers in danger.
hmm this is actually so true
@@ecyinka Also Harry Potter! Every wizard is theoretically able to access the same spells with practice; they have different styles for sure but any wizard can do the same spell as any other. And then it's a relatively soft system overall, we don't learn anything about how the magic works aside from some possible genetic components
@@ternovnik257 Yep, and Both Harry Potter and SW never explain to the audience what prevents apprentices from immediately using the most powerful abilities of their magic system, there's no way to tell each individual character's "power limit" (midichlorians don't exist shutup lol)
@@frameddonut1056I actually really enjoy midichlorians. They aren’t the force, a common misconception. They are just something that exist in cells that allows living beings to connect to force. More of them = more connection to the force, thus greater potential within the force
This adds an extra layer to the story. Obi-Wan had dead average midichlorians, yet was able to beat Anakin in their duel despite Anakin having more midichlorians than any living being ever. Despite Anakin being the most powerful being in the galaxy at that moment, and despite all of his talent and potential, he lost to an Jedi that should have been average if it weren’t for his wisdom and hard training.
It adds a level of irony to the story and adds another level of tragedy to Anakin’s story. He could and should have been the best of all Jedi and Sith but was destined to suffer in an agonising suit for the rest of his miserable life
You stole my comment before I wrote it :P
Yeah basically. Everyone with the force has the same abilities and none of them is ever explained very well.
You seem a bit more annoyed by it than I am tho ;) But I agree that the writers, especially recently, lack imagination when it comes to letting their Force users actually use the force and still giving them challenging obstacles to overcome.
Shinsekai Yori has the "everyone has telekinesis" thing and half the show is figuring out why and what to do about it as well as the phylosophical implications which is pretty neat
have you seen Fire Force? they call all the powers "pyrokinesis", but the diversity of effects are stunning... i'm looking at these systems very differently thanks to your essay. thank you
They really stretch the concept of fire and heat in that series right out the gate
From what i remember in the anime
They stretched the meaning of fire to just heat. By this logic everything can be classified as heat since its just a form of energy.
So you can escalate it indefinitely, something likw that can very easily end up like dragon ball
full metal alchemist, everyone knows of alchemy but there is a sense of mystery that surrounds the system to the point that finding out how it works is the mc's goal
you cant name this video like this and expect me not to immediately think of ice king from adventure time
I don't dabble in magic systems in my writing but I always find learning about them and their versatility fascinating! Very informative, thank you 😊
It fell into the magic system of this channel.
Here is a samey-soft system, that I personally have been thinking of and trying to expound on:
Magic is CONTRADICTION, the use of it is anyways. Magic fundamentally is anti-reality, it breaks all laws of everything.
What makes it samey then, when it seems it should be very diverse? The practitioners. A component (not the only) of using magic is mental pathways, ways of thinking. Very crudely this could be called “belief” but it is not really that.
The issue is that people are biologically hardwired to seek pattern, regularity, and order. We see it unconsciously. We think in orderly ways (when we do so intentionally)
So what practitioners must be able to do, is:
>think illogically
>think in contradictory ways
>think of impossible things
>imagine that which does not/could not exist
The only people who commonly can use magic are therefore, the crippling self-unaware, mentally disabled, and insane. (With very rarely people who can compartmentalize their thoughts and understandings, but even they are very eccentric and often unable to communicate the ideas.
How is it that this is not then a hard magic system, with having these rules?
Magic is not bound only to practitioners, it is its own entity.
That's really what anime does better than the rest of the world I think.
The power systems rarely make sense, but the characters hard-carry the whole thing by doing cool stuff with it.
what do you mean they rarely make sense
@@itsoracle They are often wacky, especially for non-anime viewers
As somebody who adores anime, I can see what they mean. Anime tends to spin ideas that are often taboo or not explored in western media
even tho it's being used a billion times at this point, the whole rpg like system is definitely one of the best things when it comes to power system in any type of fiction (i know you said anime but manga fits too)
Something I’ve been planning for my story is that every magic user is at least slightly unhinged.
Magic is a fae thing, and humans cannot use it without getting changed. Some themselves become fae.
The strongest magic users, however, are those that can maintain their humanity and straddle the line between human and fae.
The fae in my story are inspired by celtic myth btw, pretty dark stuff.
PLEASE do more of these videos! They're so unbelievably good, some of the best writing advice content on CZcams easily! Keep up the good work.
And this is why I love _The Owl House's_ magic system _so_ much. 😁. As well as the magic system used in 2010's _The Sorcerer's Apprentice._ In that movie, Sorcerers/Sorceresses have to use physical objects, such as rings or necklaces, in order to use various magical abilities. Various magical abilities, such as Plasma Bolts, magical defensive shields, wielding fire and incorporating grand illusions, trapping people in bigger-on-the-inside magical urns or mirror worlds where everything is reversed or even bringing things to life from inanimate objects, such as bringing a bunch of wolves from a calendar to life to chase down the main protagonist, are _all_ things that the magic system of this (in my opinion) _very, VERY_ underrated movie's magic system says that Sorcerers/Sorceresses can _all_ do. But, only _one person,_ the Prime Merlinian, can use and wield magic _without_ the use of a magic ring or other sort of magical object to help him wield said magic system's magic. It's all _surprisingly_ well thoughtout and complex, in my opinion, and again, _very, VERY UNDERRATED_ in terms of fictional magic systems and movies in general. :3. Nicholas Cage was _absolute gold_ in that movie, and I _highly_ recommend it to _anyone_ who is a Nick Cage fan who hasn't watched it yet. :3.
HxH nen is probably my favorite magic system ever, it's just so intricate while still being intuitive and leaving a lot of customization to characters
I've always thought of nen in HxH as a demonic contract but without the demon
(Or, the demon is yourself, technically)
@@SickegalAlien Powers can have conditions to be activated but they don't really require them and many characters have powers that really have no restrictions so kind of? I've always thought of nen as a standard occidental magic system fused with the oriental ideas of Ki/Chi and "internal energy", if you think about it it's a mixture of both and it achieves a system that has both a lot of creativity while also having very technical and specific rules that apply to everyone indiscriminately.
On the other hand nen vows are definitely kind of like demon contracts with yourself and they are a great addition to the nen system but only a few characters have vows and they usually enhance an existing power, not grant new ones. That's another great thing about nen, it adds new concepts without completely breaking the system they're built on, rules CAN be broken but only if you pay the right price for doing so.
Would the Force from the Star Wars universe fit the same-soft quadrant? Little is known about it, yet it is ubiquitous among Jedi and Sith characters. Storylines for them often involve learning new ways the Force.
Yeah I think the Force is a good example of same-soft. It's a very vague magic system but grants a set of relatively simple/straightforward powers when used. The power is the same but *how* and *when* the power is used varies wildly from character to character.
The Force is so soft (ignoring midichlorian silliness) it's hard to tell how same/different it is. On the one hand 99% of all Force users seem to use the same few abilities, no matter their "power level"- Telekinesis, a "sixth sense" for both things in their surroundings and the emotions of living things, and the ability to wield a lightsabre (which for some reason isn't possible unless you're force-sensitive, for some reason- very soft). But then you have Vader and Palpatine shooting lightning from their fingertips, hinting at potentially wildly different and highly nuanced abilities that we just don't really see.
@@vitriolicAmaranth it's not that you need the Force to weild a lightsaber. There's several instances of non-Force users successfully using lightsabers such as Cade Bane and Aura Sing, both of whom managed to disarm and/or rob Jedi. Kyber crystals, the thing sabers are made of, do require some degree of force sensitivity in the process of their making, some even say the crystal chooses it's weilder more than vice versa.
But I feel like the main reason only a Force sensitive can use lightsabers effectively is because you're literally bringing a sword to a blaster fight. Also keep in mind the context of the setting, countless millennia in the future where weapon tech is extremely advanced and semi-sentient robots and droids rule the battlefield. The amount of strength, speed, endurance, and (literally) faster as light reflexes it would take to use a saber can only be achieved by a body that is Force enhanced. No normal person would ever realistically have the speed to block a hail of laser bolts, survive great falls, leap as if they were in zero-g, fight for hours on end, etc.
This is where the Force achieves it's use as a literary device, it makes decent sense in its universe's context while providing the "momma said I'm special" clause it's protagonists need to stand out. Sure, any old acrobatic Togruta huntress could dual weild some glowing swords, but could they ever achieve the physical feats or battle prowess of Ahsoka? Without the Force enhancing their senses and physical abilities, probably not.
Came here looking for this. I wasn't sure because I'm not familiar with most of the sources for the other systems, so I can't really compare the concepts, but I think it fits?
I think Noble Phantasms from Nasuverse might fit into the Same/soft quadrant? I mean to put it as basic as possible, Noble Phantasms are things that are tied to a Heroic Spirit's legend (ability, weapons, tools, power, freakin CONCEPTS, or outright A DIMENSIONAL POCKET). All of them have have wildly different abilities that, again, are based on every Heroic Spirit's legend, with the only thing that is common is that their Noble Phantasm's power is based on the feats, the raw power, and how popular/close is their Noble Phantasm tied to their legend/history.
I was about to say what about Gilgamesh he has noble phantasm that aren't tied to him but then I remembered his whole g.o.b comes from the fact that he was said to have collected all the treasures in the world which includes the prototypes and some versions of all nps and the grail
An amazing example of A power system would be bleach's zanpakuto System in how it is used to develop And Give the characters unique story arcs, while also being raw as fuck. Each individual zanpakuto and it's user is given great subtle attention.
I would say that a magic system is at it's best when it shapes the characters who use it and the themes of the story. Something like alchemy from FMA requires scientific understanding of nature to use and has very few limits when one is knowledgeable enough, thus preselecting scientist who are constantly researching ways to push boundaries and gain greater knowledge and power even as they cross moral lines and incurre vosts to thier actions they would not initially see. This also ties into the Law of Equivalent Exchange which is not only a theme of alchemy but of the world itself, with characters going too far in thier pursuit of knowledge and power always losing something, from parts of thier bodies to their very hummanity(both literally and figuratively).
You should have also looked at the spinoff "A Certain Scientific Railgun" of the Manga/Anime "A Certain Magical Index". They have great magic systems!
really surprised it wasn't mentioned. three fully separate systems of magic, every one of which varies by how diverse they are within themselves.
@@comyuse9103 wait three? Espers, magicians and... I CANNOT THINK OF THE THIRD I AM A BAD FAN
@@lolhcd keep in mind i haven't read or watched a lot of it yet; but i was counting church magic and...whatever the other magicians do as technically separate until i get more information and i think the anti-magic is its own hoopla, so i went with at least three.
edit; oh and there is also magical creatures that might count? but i didn't think of those.
@@comyuse9103 ahhh okay yeah it makes sense. I just generalize it into science and magic
@@lolhcd There are Genstones who are considered natural Espers, or people with talent because they awakened powers naturally. While the Espers we know: Accelerator, Misaka, Kuroko, etc, are called modern Espers because they awakened powers through drugs and experiments.
Oh, this is not technically a spoiler ok, the first Genstone was shown in the second arc of the anime, Himegami Aisa, the girl whose blood attracts vampires. Although the scene in which the Genstones would be better explained was cut, they were supposed to be mentioned in season 3 with Sogita Gunha, another Genstone making her first appearance in the series, as Railgun T did not yet exist at the time.
If you analyze Railgun T you will see that Sogita's powers are somewhat strange. He doesn't seem limited to just one type of power like other Espers, so it could be that Genstones work differently than modern Espers.
Castlevania (the Netflix series) still has my favorite magic system to date. It pretty much consisted of "if you can think of it, you can do it"
That was a meal and a half. Thank you!
I wish writers for series (where there are multiple writers) would pay more attention to this type of analysis...
throughout this video I keep thinking of Worm by Wildbow. Is a story that heavily leans on the characters because their personality and the trauma they had shapes how the power work. Even if the baseline of the power is the same just because of this two previously mentioned factors the end result will be different to the point that you won't know even if it is the same baseline power lmao. In this story the powers are common but nobody knows how they came to be or how they work exactly. At the beginning it feels like a soft system but the more you learn the more it become a Sanderson like hard magic system that leans 100% on the characters, their trauma and their development. It reach a point where you can try to guess the character past trauma or personality based on their powers and vice versa.
Also gets to the point at the end where its being manipulated more, with Taylor trying to break the magic system but instead breaks her own mind.
Worm is an absolutely incredible work of worldbuilding.
Always happy to see people talk about the Lightbringer series with magic discussions. It's got such a unique vibe with how it relies on physics and imagination that I can't really describe it
HxH's Nen, and ATLA's bending are my favorite magic systems definitely. I like how the personalities of the characters in HxH affects their nen abilities. Just look how diverse people from the same categories are such as the transmuters, Killua, Hisoka and Bisky. Then in ATLA, every bender in the respective nations have the same abilities but have different bending styles. The fire nation soldiers mostly do firebending through channeling their anger and rage but there are firebenders who uses breathing techniques for their firebending such as Iroh and Zuko in season 3. Don't get me started on Azula's blue fire which is so awesome! Plus, there are sub categories for each bending such as healing and blood bending for water bending, lightning for fire bending, lava and metal bending for earth, etc. which makes the benders more diverse and interesting when it comes to their skillset (Katara having waterbending, healing and bloodbending which makes her my favorite along with Azula and Toph.)
Gosh I love the idea of the 'Ghibli corner' 😂 I'd have plenty of other magic systems (especially book-based) to add over there, I think that's my home base.
And on the topic of Soft + Same, how about reincarnation? It's literally the same loop for everyone, so there's no diversity. And because everybody is a magic user sort of unwillingly (I feel this could be debated forever, but for the sake of argument, let's assume that in a particular reincarnation system, you don't have to learn anything to do that - it's an innate ability), they have very very little understanding of how the magic works, despite being intrinsically connected to it.
Perhaps that's the key to this side of the board - being passive magic users, rather than active.
This whole concept got me thinking about my own style. And I realized I lean toward magic as a phenomenon and then ask the question, how are people going to exist in this world and interact with said phenomenon. Sometimes that creates weilders, but not always.
at around 9 mins, the last Sanderson secret project does this wonderfully! If you haven't read it yet, I hope you enjoy!
Undead Unluck is a good example of the Same Soft Quadrant. The idea is everyone has a certain type of ability that all have a similar effect. But the rules to the ability are flexible and based on how the person sees it. Such as the idea of unchange stoping something from changing, but also being able to move things around with the idea that you are stopping certain types of change.
Aside from examples mentioned in the comments, another soft/same magic system I can think of is the one from With Hat Atelier. This may go a bit into some spoiler territory but I'll try to explain as best as I can without spoiling anything.
But essentially, the witches or the magic users, can pretty much learn to do anything, but they all have their specialties and preferences.
Though thinking about it now, it may lean more towards the hard system, perhaps somewhere in the middle (as it did mention some rules and scopes to it), but it doesn't really go too into detail when it reaches higher level magic, making it seem that anything is possible.
Hi, I've just met your channel and I believe that this is one of if not the best video I've ever seen on the distinction between different magic systems and what makes them unique. From the ideas you propose to the delivery, making looking at graphs fun! Very cool video overall, looking to see more of you in regards to writing and fantasy tbh
Espers powers in Certain Magical Index Series had that soft style but the same system. They have espers with the same ability but different application. For example, the telekinesis, despite the users classified as telekineticists in the series, their telekinetic abilities is as diverse as you mentioned like only move things, only effect certain materials, could only effect movement, could only effect on molecular level or could do all. In terms of power system (magic), my favourite is still the Certain Magical Index Series.
It took me a long time to wrap my head around the actual "magic" in Index,
But it's probably *the* perfect interpretation for urban fantasy magic!
I don't remember there being any major telekinesis users in Index. If what you are trying to say is that esper powers in general are telekinesis then you are wrong, their power is the manifestation of their "Personal Reality" substituting normal reality, so they are basically especialized reality warpers.
@@natanielflores8141 If you've been following the franchise, you would've known that telekinesis is the most common esper ability with varieties of applications. I guess you didn't. Also, I never said that all esper powers in index universe is telekinesis or from telekinesis. I was merely giving an example. I assumed you probably have somewhat of a comprehension issue. The "personal reality" in Index Universe is the mechanic behind the manifestation of esper powers. However, it's not the power itself. That is why not once it was mentioned in the franchise that espers are reality warpers. You're just trying to invent a concept in the lore of that universe that didn't exist so that feel like you're smarter and know more than other people.
Great video from research to editing! Super useful. Keep up the amazing work!
For Quadrant 4, I would posit that "systems" that fall under that quadrant are those were magic is not central to the story, but rather a background fact. Because of the lack of diversity, there is little value in exploring the nuances of the system so it just kinda sits there.
A good example, that actually is more or less exactly your telekinesis example, is the movie Looper (2012) where some people have telekinesis but its all about the same strength and can be used to float stuff.
interesting theory 🤔
I'll def come back to this video when ideating, but also no one talking about the editing. I love the use of the water bottle for match cuts on the editing, and the vocals too were seamless from cut to cut. Well done👏
Really happy I found your channel! You have a fun and unique perspective on writing and storytelling (and a great love for the beauty of creativity) that I 100% appreciate. Excited to see more from you
Still watching this rn, but this is just what I needed going into my fourth draft. Thanks bro.
I really appreciate how you visualize information for your audience.
This was a great breakdown. Wonderfully done thank you for posting. I have used previous videos for looking at my magic systems. And I will do a deeper dive with this one.❤
Thank you so much for doing this, this has helped me define my magic system a bit more and helped me ask the questions I should be asking about it. I love your style of videos, you're brilliant and awesome.
A same and soft magic system is definetly the one in Shinsekai yori. Its an amazing anime by itself but the way it treats a pretty much limitless magic system with its history its truly amazing.
Love your editing style and thoughts on this topic, subscribing ❤
This video kept me engaged for the entire time. It was enjoyable and incredibly interesting the whole way through. Well done 👏
Love all the transitions. And the analysis
For me, you always manage to encompass what you say in the videos, you have a very magical, bold recording and editing system, but without the magic user of the channel with his construction of more creative ideas more interesting than the quality of the magic is what makes me come back here to drink from your knowledge above other users of similar magic on the platform.
Really great analysis, Yinka. I absolutely agree that this is a missing piece most authors ignore when writing fantasy. Love the concepts you share here!
This was wonderful. Helped me reframe my writing process. Thank you.
This is an amazing video. Extremely interesting and insightful, I certainly plan to watch it again. Keep it up.
not even 2 minutes in and I'm already invested, keep up the great work! :)
This video is wildly helpful! Thank you so much!!
11:45 i think its really interesting how we often see many webnovels or online fantasy series (what im overly keen to) struggle to create that soft system and how it plays to a character. I really appreciate the way this has me look at more fleshed out systems in contrast to show how weak the numbers games and like are.
Jobless reincarnation could be a good example of a soft, same type of magic. The characters have the same magic, spells, etc. But the way they use their spells are very different. There are those who focus on long range, short range fighting, and those who pair it with other weapons.
love it
why would you bring up that pedo anime? weird.
@@localthottie1255 watch the entire show
@@localthottie1255 💀
@@localthottie1255its not pedo, get your facts straight
Hey this video is SOO great. I love the thought process here and the confidence on the knowledge you understand
Also the magic system I have been cooking up fits in the Mystique corner
The editing is amazing
This video is absolutley brilliant. This actually helps me take a look at power systems in a really interesting way!
I used to enjoy soft magic system really much, well but then I discovered Toaru majutsu no Index. Honestly the most well written in fiction when we're talking about world building and most importantly, Magic.
In other series, you either focus on enjoying a magic system, or the user itself, cause that's usually what the author do, a soft power system with complex powers wield by users. But in Index, it is both, well a reason why this is possible is because of the top notch masterful written Magic system, and they have 2 system co-exists.
The Magic system in Index is based on real life mythologies with 99% accuracy, and with the author's world building it has became a world that feels like it could be real, the logic of the magic system even the basic would take you 16 pages to vaguely describe it, and it's not something boring, it's interesting. Every phenomena that caused by Magic in the world of Index, no matter how vague it might seems, Kamachi, the author, always left hints or fully explain it, the hints also lead to more world building, theories, and events.
While the Magic system is for the world building, the Esper power system is for both soft and hard magic system enjoyer, they're scientific yet magical, the system itself have clear logic, and it is related to (spoilers), it's like quirk, but based solely on science and theories, like you could find quantum mechanic, particle physics, biology, psychology, all of that stuff made into different powers, and the way the user use it is solely based on the user itself, and also it needs calculation power to use the power too. That's the side that made you interested in the users, and magic is there to support the system lore.
You could say that the hardest Magic system in fiction, bypassed the barrier between the system and it's user.
Fantastic video. I see this channel growing into something huge. You've earned a sub.
Love this video and discussion, when you said writers start with the answer first it hit me that that's exactly what I did with a character I thought of for my stream. I've been at a loss for a while on the finer details as not to make them boringly OP like Goku but still be immensely strong and still technically beatable like Escanor or Gojo Satoru, so I'll try listing my ideas and seeing where they fit in the pyramid and on the sliders to narrow down what's more important and what I think should change and I'm sure it'll help me finish creating them, thanks!
Is the hardness/softness of magic tied to our, as readers, understanding of it , or the in story characters one? I m now fascinated by the idea of a world where every character has perfect knowledge of how magic works, and the readers have no idea what's going on, and vice versa, where we know exactly what the almost physics of the magic is doing, and the characters are constantly surprised by what goes on around them :P
I never knew I needed this until now. Seriously I never, ever seen a video where the focus is specifically on the user and not just and only the magic system.
As someone who is writing a fantasy book this really...just expanded my mind XD
In the first 4 minutes of the video you already managed to show that you have a UTTERLY FANTASTIC understanding of this topic. So good in fact that I had at least 1 artistic epiphany LOL.
The "soft/same" quadrant reminds me about the convergent evolution of crabs. May different organism try to survive and thrive in the sea, many evolved into crabs or something crab like.
Maybe there are many magic systems, but all boil down to similar effect simply because it is the most effective.
While technically not a magic system by all intents and purposes it’s essentially magic, the Conduits from Infamous have a fascinating system in place because anyone with that ability can control a singular element, the channel, absorb and maneuver it hence the name. Cole can’t produce electricity but he can siphon it from a source to use for himself. Agent Kuo absorbs water to create ice and because her power is ice she’s always covered in a thin layer of it much like how Cole always has electricity coursing through him which makes touching certain things impossible because he could accidentally cook off gun powder in a gun or ignite a fuel tank. Those with enough skills can even turn themselves into that element. Someone who controls neon and transform into a stream of neon light, a person who controls video can travel through TV’s or transform themselves into a hard light projection. The rules are always the same yet loosely defined because they can range from simple elements like lighting, fire, ice and air to something incredibly specific like Video, Paper, Tar and Concrete.
Bro, I love your voice, cadency and, especially, speed. I tend to x2 all videos because people sssspppppeeeeeeaaaaaaakkkkk like that to stretch videos. Instant subscribe
Great take on magic. Would love to see videos on great soft and hard magic, as analysis and/or recommendations to read/watch
Awesome info. That was really helpful. My biggest worry when I'm writing magic systems is making sure they're not too similar to ones already made. Same goes for coming up for names for said power systems.
"I am objectively right." Peak content and analysis. Immediate sub.
For a Soft Same magic system I think David & Leigh Eddings 'Will and the Word' from Belgariad / Mallorean fits well. For the few magic users out there, they can do whatever their mind wants. It's the limits of their Will. There's only 1 Hard rule: You cannnot unmake (utterly destroy from existence) something. There are other smaller limiters like exhausting yourself or not comprehending something therefore you cannot do it. But two people could say "lightning" and drop a lightning bolt on your enemy. However the Sorcerers, Sorcereress and Grolims have such a soft and squishy magic system that almost anything is possible, you just need to imagine it and say it. Details of the system are given over time but it is still very loosey-goosey defined. You can cast an illusion of yourself by projecting your illusion. Any magical person can. But even then it's soft what can be done with that illusion.
I ventured into the comments looking for exactly this. Thank you.
Brilliant explanation and analysis! Keep it up 🎉
I came across this looking up magic systems... and holy crap. I'm going to learn so much from this channel
this is a really cool and unique approach to magic systems, thanks for sharing
i appreciate your talk about hard and same (tool) magic systems because most videos online talking about magic systems tend to talk about hard & diverse (playground) only and trying to create a tool magic system is both fun and very hard because i have to be smarter than my readers to get the correct payoff (and i have to actually balance the magic system so i don’t completely break the story (。。))
and you talked about knowledge too ;-; you’re a godsend. i’m using that as the main conflict of the story (who has access to magic knowledge?) and you’re helping a lot
A magic system which is underrated is fire force, which is a hard magic system but diverse, everyone having fire based abilities but depending on if you a second gen, third, or fourth gen you get your own rules which still makes people who are best for specific situations bonus for soul eater as well, W power systems
3:37 first video i've seen of yours. subscribed after this moment. LOVE the rest of the video too!
I think The Force from Star Wars, ignoring Legends material, is actually an excellent example of a Soft, Same system. It really just boils down to telekinesis, but the characters produce vastly different smaller effects as a consequence of their personality, circumstances, and the fact that the writers never admit it's really just psychic powers.
This is amazing man. Thank you!!!
You have such a smooth voice. great job on the audio
I think Black Clover has an interesting relationship between diversity and uniformity. On a baseline, everyone has abilities that correspond with one of the 4 classic elements in some way even if they're far removed like plants being part of earth and then cotton being further than that, however even people with the same magic type can have wildly different magic because the form your magic takes is also heavily influenced by the user. Fuegoleon and Mereoleona are siblings and had the same teacher but because Fuegoleon is more rule oriented, his magic took a closer form to his teacher whereas Mereoleona did not. Then take Gaja and Luck who use the same technique for manipulating their magic using Mana Method, because their fighting styles are different, they have to apply Mana Method in a different way. It's like a card game. (almost) Everyone plays by the same rules but no can play the same. Some people can have the same kind of deck but different levels of knowledge about the game, some people play with the same strategy but with different decks, some people have to rely purely on strategy because they didn't have the money to buy the good cards. It's so diverse and so not diverse at the same time.
I think LoTR is a case of soft and same magic system. The magicians all wield the same kind of soft magic. It might change if you include other magical beings, so I'm not sure.
It's a thrill seeing characters make magic their own. Like how Toph Beifong does it. Different characters may have the same power essentially, but use it differently. That's cool especially with stolen powers; someone finding a new way to use them we have not seen before.
Really glad to see someone else read one of the Lightbringer books. That series had a pretty unique and interesting magic system. I always thought it would be cool to be a Yellow-Green-Blue polychrome.
Very interesting video. But also, your glasses look so good on you! Wow!
You are the guy using graph to teach about magic and I love you for it. Graphs are great!
First 15 seconds and I already see a Cosmere reference when talking about magic systems. You get yourself a new subscriber, good sir
Your channel is so cool. I love your energy and exhaustiveness exploring any topic.
My only feedback is to be careful with the position of the microphone in relation to your mouth. As you speak, sometimes the volume of your voice goes up and sometimes down.
thanks i appreciate it! didn’t catch the mic thing until i was editing. definitely learnt my lesson 😂
This really video gave me tons of ideas. Thank you.
i feel like this video is a just some ordinary multi universe traveling bloke who is just rambling on how magic works in different worlds and decided to make this video, I love this vibe i get!
Really liked this. I actually think this can be extended further than magic. Recently I've been trying to model boxing and martial arts as a sort of magic system for the purposes of getting better at writing fight scenes and I think here they would fit on the 'same power' side and very hard magic, with each system of fighting styles producing specific solutions to solve problems in particular situations (whether that be writing a sports story where fighting takes place in formalised, defined areas, or a more street brawl centred narrative where the environment can vary more and so on and so on).
i think i have a magic system for the fourth spot, but i don't know what you'll call it. for my world, i decided to limit my magic into resources or rocks that carry their own properties. theses rocks can also be used in many different ways, like blowing through a hole causing flames to come out, skipping one over water can make an icey path or even creating a electric barriers using multiple. i used simple examples to not spoil my future plans for them, but you probably got the idea. hope this helped
Ooh thats a nice idea! Im imagining it in my head and it looks so cool!