Fan theories vs credible interpretation |
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- čas přidán 7. 05. 2024
- Main channel: @TBSkyen || Let's plays: @2BSkyen || Twitch: /tbskyen || Support my work on Patreon / tbskyen, or on ko-fi / tbskyen || Find me as TBSkyen on Bluesky (s**tposting) || I am ohnoitstbskyen on Tumblr (articles) || #shorts #pokemon
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man, he's so right about not having enough time to cover every detail of a pokemon in a 60 second short. he should redo this entire series but in comedically long video essays.
Nah, Lockstin already covers that niche
He only focuses on character designs, so honestly not much point in doing that
Exactly, and he should also redo the "best panels of one piece" but this time "analysing every panel of one piece". I mean, its roughly 1000 pokemon and 1100 chapters of one piece, i only want half an hour for each, its asking this much?
yeah that would be so crazy and fun. maybe he can do other ranking and review videos as well. such as, perhaps, some kind of ranking of songs in popular online musicals. it would be funny if that one went on comedically long too
@@monkey_blu i would personally love someone else to give lockstin competition for that niche. while i have gained some insight from his stuff, i find his references way too out there and nonsensical at times. and i believe he's straight up made-up a fact at least once, in his video about why alolan exeggutor is a dragon-type, he claims mo'os tend to disguise themselves as coconut trees, but i looked around everywhere and couldn't find a single instance of anyone saying such a thing, other than on pokémon forums. i do not trust his work much, since, unfortunately.
this is not to dunk on him or anything, but i do wish other people covered that format of long-form videos of pokemon origins!
Rayquaza inspiration: +2h long essay about the possible influences of multiple ancient religions across the world
Spheal inspiration: sphere + seal
And which is the more iconic design? I rest my case.
I for one am looking forward to seeing Cubedog and Pyramidgoat in generation 10.
@@GG-dt5hhrayquaza
@@chaosenforcerdhm969 *red buzzer sfx*
@@derpyzygarde no rayquaza is more iconic more people will recognize rayquaza then spheal
Ray-who? Nintendo might as well rename Pokemon to Spheal and Friends.
To quote another Pokemon reviewer
“what the fuckle is Shuckle?”
A juice dispenser, apparently
An endolith turtle.
@@goldlight1322 not anymore :(
@@klop4228 What do you mean?
@@goldlight1322 You can't get berry juice from Shuckle anymore
Ok but he still should’ve mentioned Jirachi’s third eye
Yeah, is one of the few times pokemon does divine and cosmic horror
Jirachi's fucking *_W H A T_*
you can really tell who never watched the jirachi movie
I personally have always thought that gamefreak used multiple sources of inspiration and blended them together. Of course this is based on how I personally do creature and character design, but it does seem like it fits with how no single source (except ho-oh) ever lines up cleanly with the design.
yeah, definetely seems the case for some mons. You cannot tell me that the ghost dragon that's also an extinct ocean dinosaur and a stealth bomber somehow came from a _single_ source.
@@asierx7047 exactly, too many things fit for it to just be a single idea
To be fair, designs with lots of different sources and inspirations seem to be more of a later gen thing (7+). Earlier gens (specially 1~3) tend towards simpler designs.
@@vivillonenthusiast781 true enough, but even early gens had their share of complicated mons
That is 100% true but that doesn't mean you should grab everything with a passing resemblance. You still need to think with a critical mind about what is or isn't an inspiration.
A funny thing about Behemoth is how modern interpretations imply that the myth could have been created because of hippos.
Hippos are absolute monsters, that check out.
From what I've heard it's actually Elephants, it's a better fit to my understanding.
The weird thing about Behemoth is that it's a weird, confusing blend of traits that don't map onto any one real animal that the ancient Hebrews would have known about. Its tail was supposedly "broad as an oak tree, and strong enough to clear a field", and the only things they would know about with broad, muscular tails would be crocodiles. So, likely, Behemoth is multiple creatures compressed into one description, and then made big- something the ancient world did a lot, as many other mythologies would indicate.
@@elijahpadilla5083 where on earth did you here about "as broad as an oak tree"? The ancient Hebrew wouldn't have heard of those. It should be "sways like a cedar tree".
@@elijahpadilla5083 Leviathan is similar in this aspect; it has been called a serpent, a "dragon,"(specific, i know) a fish, a whale, it has even been called a form of the Devil. these monsters are very old and have had many different interpretations over the years
A soft point of Defense for the Leviathan->Kyogre interpretation, the modern Hebrew word for a whale is Leviathan. I still consider your overall argument to be more convincing
Also Regis are golems
"Behemoth" has also become synonymous to something that is abnormally large/powerful/important
It definitely could still be a loose inspiration for the trio, just not as directly as many believe
It's of course still possible that it could be been the original inspiration and changed throughout the process. Me and a couple friends are working on fakemon to fill out a whole region and an idea I had was something inspired by Naglfar, Loki's boat in Ragnarök, but by the end it took much more inspiration from Bake-Kujira from Japanese folklore.
@@flameofmage1099 please show, I love Kujira
The one that got a laugh out of me was saying Breloom was a bird of some kind.
I always saw it as a kangaroo (hence the hopping and the boxing theme), but I literally cannot argue with you, since there’s no official confirmation.
I see it as a mushroom-kangaroo-dino but without any official confirmation it might as well be based on Luffy because it has a hat and stretchy arms
That's why I love Skyen. Considering his pov on Breloom design, yea there is legit angle here with bird motife. He expands it for me, makes me notice more
@@edgargaebolg9307 I do always name my Breloom Luffy. Bonus if it’s Shiny and wearing red.
I'm mostly curious about where the hell he got 'Bird' from. Like... Was it the feet? The face? If so, wouldn't dinosaur be a more apt comparison? Breloom has a long single tail, and no wings, so a how one gets to bird is very confusing to me.
I always thought Breloom was some kind of raptor 😅😅
4:34 this statement of "I don't know what was going through the designers minds at Game Freak," is honestly even more applicable when you remember that Ruby and Saphire were released over 2 decades ago at this point. There is genuinely no way to fully know what they were thinking with a character design they made in the early 2000's when the Game Freak devs themselves probably don't remember.
Great video by the way, Skyen. You're always very inciteful when it comes to artistic decisions in the things you look into, and it's always fun to watch through
Yeah the best we have is old interviews, and the even better is what we don't have.
They probably still have notes left on dev builds, and some early sketches and character sheets but have no reason to release them to the public (Pokemon went digital with the artworks around that time, so it possible but probably lost at this point).
NO.
NO DONT SAY THAT.
DONT SAY ITS THAT OLD.
@@thebaseandtriflingcreature174 It is that old and I'm not happy about it either!
*insightful
Okay but Jirachi had obvious ceremonial garbs representing the divine, jester makeup and A THIRD EYE, you called it "blank body generic star wish child".
I feel like he made this video in response to the backlash to his Jirachi short, and avoided mentioning Jirachi in it lol.
Like, with only the most basic overview of Japanese culture, I can see traits that are evocative of ceremonies and traditions tied to making wishes that he totally ignored
@@catherinestickels2591I think it's more likely it was made in response to his Latinos Latinas videos since he's literally all up in that comment section berating people lol.
@@BeyondTrash-xe1vs Probably a combination of the two and other stuff in the past. His patience seems to grow rather thinned when he perceives (correctly or not) that a repeated argument against one of his opinions is weak - and in fairness I imagine that has got to be annoying on such a large scale as his platform. But when he snaps and the community snaps back, instead of taking it on the chin he doubles down. I doubt this video will do anything about it, because very few of his viewers watch all of his videos to know this context, but it can't hurt to try either.
“Rule 34 makes a fool of us all eventually.” Is such a raw quote lmao
A good example is the ditto theory. Fan theory is that dittos are failed mew clones, because you find them in cinnabars burnt mansion where mewtwo was cloned, there the same size and color as mew in regular and shiny, and they're the only pokemon the naturally learn transform, but its just as likely that ditto are naturally occuring and someone trying to clone a pokemon would want the transforming pokemon to help with research and would've had a bunch of ditto around. There's good evidence for a theory, but there are other explanations, so without official confirmation, it will always just be a theory.
Or they just wanted to add a shapeshifting slime for the classical JRPG monsters quota and put it in a late game place
They did have at the very least a nod to the theory in the Detective pikachu movie.
And there was official confirmation from Masuda that Ditto and Mew have nothing to do with each other, but since it's such a long standing myth in the fanbase people still repeat it.
@@charnalk5572but them detective pikachu contradicts that
@@Theserperiortrainer497 Detective Pikachu is also non canon and was mostly supervised by fans (the creature designer for the movie was actually making pokemon fanart as realistic creatures before) so they made a reference for fans (because this theory is still long standing despite being debunked) , the anime too for exemple adds non canon lore (Professor Fuji never worked with team rocket, and the anime makes Mewtwo's creation outside of the Cinnabar Mansion).
The manga too has its own fair share of non canon info, like Mewtwo being a clone of Blaine and Mew, and Blaine's flesh is capable of detecting Mewtwo.
This video is very necesary considering he's about to start on Gen 4 and BOY the theories around the legendary trio and Arceus are so many xDDDD
I didn't know the Behemoth, Leviathan, and Ziz comparison was just a fan theory. It's a shame since that would tie in well with how the Regis are based on Hebrew stories of golems. I wonder if that's part of why the weather trio theory caught on.
We don't know at all obviously but there is always the chance that while Behemoth, Leviathan and Ziz didn't inform the designs of Groudon, Kyogre and Rayquaza they could have been the inspiration for their relationship and place in the pokemon world. Would hardly be the first time someone used mythology as a framework to design something more original.
@@erica2980 I mean if I was talking to a friend who wanted to use the hebrew trio and they started talking about a giant cow I'd probably try and change it to a fire lizard too. Doesn't change the possible influence. So it's very possible that the weather trio went through various redesigns and 'focus groups' (moreso peer review) until they landed on what they did.
Whoever was in charge of designing legendaries of gen 3 probably had Hebrew lore on the mind at the time because even Jirachi might be part Hebrew. The jira part might come from yira, which is old Hebrew for respect/fear of authority/god
@@danraskin9943Ken Sugimori was probably not familiar with it, Jirachi's name is most likely based on "jirashi" (to keep something suspended), ijirashii (being cute or loveable) and "rachi" (good luck or good fortune).
It is also a pokemon deeply rooted in Japanese culture, clearly inspired by the Tanabata festival (like not even debatable, it is a gift pokemon that is distributed every year for Tanabata in Japan even having the OT Tanabata).
Probably just a case of confirmation bias, seeing anything remotely close to what we want as evidence and ignoring the rest.
@@erica2980
Heck, maybe the original designs did have more of this idea in mind as well. Some Pokémon can change alot from the beta to current design (look a Porygon2 for example).
I remember reading an interview from Gamefreak that Ruby and Sapphire were supposed to be "the new Red and Blue." They even wanted to have entirely new pokemon with no repeats, but when they made all of the pokemon for the region they didn't have enough type coverage.
So maybe the "inspiration" for the Weather Trio were less from any particular source and more marketing to create Box Mascots for the game since only GSC had done that with its legendaries, and now they were giving Red and Blue the box mascots they never had.
Well, first if they were going to "give red and blue the mascots they never had" why would fire red and leaf green still use charizard and venosaur as box mascots? They just decided to continue the trend of having two separate box art legendaries for each version, that still continues to this day.
Second, those are 2 types of inspiration, even if they got the idea of adding a trio of legendaries for the reasons you think, the actual design of the trio would still have inspiration based on other things, the inspiration to do something and the creative inspiration you use in designing something are two separate things
Rayquaza does look like a missile/jet... so is kyogre a submarine and groudon an excavator?
That explains Groudon’s tail at least
These things do seem more present in the desing than any of the hebrew creatures
@@Aenglaan And it also somewhat explains Kyogre's weird tail.
This ties in with Latios and Latias being supersonic jets, and to a much lesser extent, Deoxys being an astronaut.
Legendary pokemon in particular tend to have designs that are a lot more abstract, I feel it's most likely that each one draws inspiration from multiple sources. Perhaps the reason Rayquaza (just for example) feels vaguely but not specifically inspired by all these different myths and legends is that it takes bits and pieces from all of their stories creates something original from them. Or depending on your perspective, you can see it as a completely distinct creature that was made to be the pokemon universe's own version of an eastern dragon or quetzalcoatl or the ziz.
Huh.... First time ive seen someone's pfp change while looking at it.
Probably because gen 3 was also starting this trend of disconnecting from the real world and creating it's own, fantasy setting.
Not saying that it wasn't fantastical to begin with, but Pokemon in gen 1 and 2 was unambiguously set on the really world Earth/Japan.
Each Pokemon referred to a very specific, and real concept and it sticked to it pretty strictly making tracing back the inspiration quite easy for japanese natives at least (even niche stuff like Unown are based on "energy symbols" found on tombs in the Kansai).
Gen 3 was their first "soft reboot", they stopped directly building off of an older game (RSE are not sequels, but alternate stories taking place somewhere, sometimes) and the bridge cut by the lack of transfer hardware was what encouraged them to go from a "blank slate".
I love his description of Rayquaza being sleek agile and fast because I just start giggling that Chonky Ol' Miltank is actually faster.
despite this being a great video it cannot ease my pain about jirachi's third eye 😭
I gotta say, I usually bounce off most people talking about Pokémon Designs because unfortunately, most of them have an ax to grind about how the games aren't caterring to their sensibilities anymore. TBskyen, from your League content and onward, I've appreciated how unbiased you come to designs. Like they are genuine opinions about the designs that get me thinking about design, not secret arguments about how Pokémon sucks now. I can trust you to give me a genuine opinion based on your research and analysis.
I'm not sure TB Skyen would agree that his reviews are unbiased (he frequently says otherwise on the main channel), but I'm sure he appreciates what you're trying to compliment.
@timothymclean I agree unbiased might be the wrong word, but I don't know if english has a descriptor for "a genuine opinion, and not ingenuine thought used to justify a belief in something tangentially related."
Most every pokemon can be defended.
Even the trubbish line have a bit more to em than just being literal garbage.
They are the muk line reimagined for the soft reboot of gen 5.
The only really obvious thing that you missed/ didn't mention in a review, at least that I can remember, is that Nosepass is also based off a compass and its nose is the red arrow of the compass that always points to the magnetic north pole. They even have a neat detail in Scarlet and Violet where wild Nosepass always face to the north.
Yeah, that was one of the "cut for time" bits. I wanted to focus on the Moai aspect, because I think it's more interesting, and the script was getting too tight. It ended up at 223 words, which is coming up against the limit of how much you can say in one minute of speech, and I didn't think there was a worthwhile way to incorporate the compass detail into the review.
I don't really like putting something in just to _mention_ it, just to list it off like a Buzzfeed article, that feels like wasting the audience's time to me. Some of my scripts end up doing that too much, I feel, and it bothers me, but I also know that anything I don't mention for any reason is going to be thrown in my face in the comments by people saying "HOW COULD YOU MISS THAT???" and it affects how I write because it's _so annoying._
@@TBSkyenShortsclearly, anything you don't add is just farming engagement, like youtube wants you to :x
@TBSkyenShorts Yeah, that does sound like a difficult trade-off. I was just surprised cause the compass aspect of the nosepass line is the first thing I acquaint them with, but on the other hand, I learned something new about the line because you chose to focus the Maoi aspects, so maybe it was the right decision
They do make some errors in the videos, and that's fine because again the format.
The only one we honestly had noticed was that they called Lieep and Cradily plants when they are based on extinct Crinoids.
@@TBSkyenShorts
If you want any idea for cases like that, maybe have a pinned comment that mentions things like that, and maybe your thoughts from that design aspect.
This can also be used for corrections if you say find something out that you didn't find in your research like from a comment or a second look at the design.
I think the fun thing about inspiration is that you can mix and match and add and take away as much as you want. Like, the difference between inspiration and interpretation. You can interpret the fenghuang into the Pokemon style to make Ho-Oh, or you can take inspiration from bats, dragons, and subwoofers to make Noivern. It's a fun puzzle and I think bringing your own interpretations and personal experience can be fun too! But I respect that your shorts series is focused on inspiration rather than personal readings, and it's been really fun watching it!
The torchick line is the best experience I've had in all my Pokémon history. It goes from a one-legged chick with a grounded appearance to a supernatural karate movie protagonist. The other starters across the franchise all wish they were this.
For Ho-Oh in particular, I think it's fair to argue that it's not just the Feilong and in fact the phoenix as well. Sure it's visual design may lean WAY more into the former, but it's lore with the legendary beasts and the in-game item tied to it (sacred ash) are all about resurrection and relation to fire.
When people say something enough times, we start to treat it as fact. That's why the older era of DYKG used to be full of fan theories, rumors, and even misinformation at times. They're a lot more invested in authentic sources these days which is nice.
I appreciate your analysis being based only on what is known to be proven or logical! Keeps the focus on the aesthetics.
Damn, Latios/Latias really got to you
To be fair, that was one of the biggest cases of "because Bulbapedia said so" so far.
One if my favourite examples of Pokemon who are so hard to pindown exactly what the origins are, is probably the Pawniard line.
Now, i dont know how much naming is part of the design, but I find it fascinating that from the naming in 3 different languages, you could interpret Pawniard and its line as either:
Samurai/Ronin/The Shogun with lots of Themes of Cutting, and Swords and Blades from both its design as well as its Japanese Names, while in English they are named after Chess Pieces and the Kings Gambit opening move in Chess, while in German the three are named after Roman things. Gladiantri (Gladius or Gladiator + Triumph), Ceasurio (Ceasar +/ Centurion) and Gladimperio (Gladius + Imperator). All the same three Pokemon, yet all evoke a different Theme in their naming alone, and i for one, find that extremely fascinating.
Guess Jirachi's third eye was that 1 time outta 10.
You could say that Rayqyaza's "missile-like ailerons" could also resemble the feathers on arrows to make a connection to Quetzalcoatl being a Feathered Serpent
But i am also fully aware and understanding that that is reaching for several straws and a huge stretch but its a fun theoru I had while listening to this
That has always been my interpretation. To me the weather trio look to invoke the same kind of mysticised ancient technology that you see in things like Tomb Raider and Indiana Jones, with their geometric markings looking like south American carved murals, or the Nazca lines or crop circles etc.
After this video I do see the modern interpretation, especially after seeing similar potentially technological shapes in Kyogre and Groudon, but that too is tenuous.
Btw, if the behemoth description seems weirdly specific it's because it might be describing a hippo.
This is why I appreciate you. You addressed some of the issues I've seen in comment sections in some shorts (Jirachi being a great example of a recent bit of this phenomenon.) But also like, you're one person and presumably going to give a review of each of these 1000+ little guys. I just get excited when I see a new short and want you to know you're appreciated!
Don't let this distract you from the fact that he called Breloom a bird instead of a kangaroo. That oversight does not have an excuse.
Mushroom Kangaroo, yeah. Hence the typing.
Between the talons, the tail and the posture, it looks more like a dinosaur than a kangaroo to me.
We’re stretching the definition of a “shorts” channel and I love thank you TBSkyen
I only noticed when i saw them next to each other, but rayquaza has both the indents that make its body look plated like groudon, and the smooth line patterning that kyogre has. I like how it ties the three together with kyogre and groudon being opposites and rayquaza acting as a mediator in both design and lore
I know this might detract from the main message of the video, but in a leaked beta rayquaza pokedex entry, it does state that it had a sharp beak, so it could have been a much more bird-like creature. But it also stated it had white scales and was the white dragon pokemon, so its likely they wanted to pivot away from the ancient-bird aspect of the design and focus on the divine dragon aspect that's prevalent in the final design.
The point is: Designing monsters is an art form, and it can be judged and critiqued.
You might believe the inspiration is something else, and someone might disagree. What matters is that you treat it like what it is: an opinion.
Yeah thats where the real problem lies, most of the pokemon community will see a fan theory of the origin of the design of a pokemon that somewhat makes sense and just run with it, and as it ends up in wikis and every discussion of said pokemon to the point where they just take it to be fact. Then they get mad at people who speak on the design for not knowing about this fan theory or just interpreting the design in a different way. It makes it hard to be a big fan of pokemon and its designs when the community behaves this way.
TB apparently considers Overqwil a fan theory that wasn't worth mentioning
This needs to be said more
I appreicate this channel very much and like your approach to both 1: "Keeping it short" and 2: "Author intent". This video is an example of a good balance of "death of the author" and the "what the auther intended".
Some designers have clear intentions while others go more off vibe, and that is what creates these unique looking pokemon! I've always appreciated the designs of Hercacross (Literally just beatle) and Trubbish (Literally just trash). How they interpret that FEEL of "Trash" and "Beatle" is very intersting to me.
Pokemon that have a clear mythological origin also just feels more epic so I do like them as well.
To be fair, you can be inspired by something, and still be completely different in most aspects.
After all, the Important part of inspiration isn't just Copying a thing. it's the IDEA of it.
Ho-oh isn't inspired by the Ho-oh. it literally is it.
The trio doesn't have to be the same creatures to be inspired by them.
Unless something is Confirmed by the creator then it's just viewer interpretation.
Can you prove it? no. Can you disprove it? also no.
Can you prove Breloom is avian? no more than you can Prove its a Kangaroo, or a raptor.
All we can say is what we think, and try to see it from the viewpoints of others without dismissing their interpretation out of hand. Thats what Discussion is after all.
While we may not be able to know exactly what Breloom is, we know they are certainly a Fungi to be around.
"You would have to be doing a bit or something" Yeah, the bit for most people is a lack of a solid education.
It's always been my understanding that multiple inspirations are smashed together to make many pokemon. Especially legendaries. I would argue that no single theory mentioned is incorrect. But rather ALL are correct.
This is how you get so many unique designs. By using multiple inspirations.
The problem with not being able to cover everything in 60 seconds is going to become more of a problem as time goes on and the designs start getting more complicated and inspired by more things
So about the Latios and Latias video, firstly no, I never wanted to try and correct you based around a quick search on Bulbapedia. In fact, I did not get my source from Bulbapedia but rather a Lockstin video titled: “The origins of every psychic type Pokémon”. Considering the sheer amount of work Lockstin puts into making those types of Pokemon origin videos, I have considered it a fact how Latios and Latias were based around the idea of a male and a female being emanated from God(or a higher power in the Pokémon universe) meant to be together and I thought that was a really cool origin. Although, it is more of an older video so the quality of the origins could have been outdated. It was more of a “hey Skyen did a video on two Pokemon that I know a cool fact about, why don’t I share it” kinda mindset that I had.
Secondly, I chose not to comment back for two reasons, firstly because I felt like it has gone too far too fast. I can understand the people trying to defend me and I thank their good intentions but it was too overdone to the point where I was embarrassed by what I started. Especially when people just try to insult Skyen without and ryme or reason just to insult him. I don’t want to be known as that “troublemaking guy who comments on videos just to start arguments”. In fact, I was not really offended by the comment. It caught me off guard sure but I did not bother to comment back because I’m not going to start an argument on the internet. Especially not on stupid reasons like Pokémon design origins.
All I want is to try and comment on Pokemon shorts because the series itself makes me happy. I don’t want any arguments or wars in my comment replies. If I am wrong about something next time, I will look into it and try to reply. Whoever reads this, thank you and have a blessed day.
That's a good way of doing it. I also really appreciate that other youtubers like Lockstin take the opposite approach in their longform videos, listing any little thing that could POSSIBLY have gone into the design. So much so that some ideas directly contradict each other, and it's impossible to watch one of their videos and believe that they are putting forward the one and only design inspiration for any given pokemon.
It's like you're filling different niches and it's nice to watch both. :)
The other confusing part about trying to find the inspiration behind pokemon is sometimes… there isn’t much of one? Like not every pokemon is based on some preexisting myth or concept. Some are just… ice cream with a face. I’m not saying that *isn’t* based on anything, I’m just saying sometimes it I think they go “oh, here’s an animal, or item that could be a sorta cool concept.”
I think the best good faith pheonix argument for Ho-oh is that they layered elements of it over the STRONG basis you described. Its a very minor adjustment at best if any inspiration was used at all
When I’m making fantasy worlds, there’s often a lot of stitching and sewing between legends and video games, and fantasy stories that I love. If I have a dragon on screen, it’s probably got aspects of dragons from at least three different stories.
And so I wouldn’t be surprised if some less obvious Pokémon were the same. Maybe they made the design of something, heard about a cool legend, and slapped that lore onto something because they’re similar enough concepts. Or maybe they reached the same conclusion because they’re similar enough concepts.
yknow i always find new ways to respect you skyen, but i didn't recognise the effort you've consistently put into researching these shorts. hell yea man.
One thing I'd like to point out is that in Pokemon Gold, Silver, and Crystal, Ho-oh will always be holding an item called Sacred Ash when caught (which has the same name in Japanese). It has the effect of reviving and fully restoring all Pokemon in the player's party, much like a Phoenix rising from the ashes, so I think it's pretty clear it takes some inspiration from other mythological depictions of Phoenixes, even though the Fenghuang is clearly its primary inspiration.
Speaking of visual design, all the Pokemon choices in the last 30 or so seconds as backgrounds for what you're saying are brilliant, and I especially love the choice to include all the Loudreds as you talk about avoiding discourse.
A large part of this comes from the idea if something wasn't directly intended by a creator it's not a valid interpretation so people pretend the designer was inspired by something they weren't because they like that idea.
I like to think many Pokemon have multiple inspirations. Like Rayquaza definitely has some Quetzalcoatl influence, Asian dragon influence, and modern influence. I often use multiple inspirations to craft my own stories, and that’s okay.
There is also the fact that one can draw on multiple inspirations for a design, like it’s not illegal to only have a singular source for one. However like you said unless it’s explicitly said, we’ll never know.
This is an incredible video and a very solid explanation for many of your points and takes across the saga
I still want justice for Jirachi tho
A good monster design takes multiple sources in order to create something new. So I think the fact that the Weather Trio being harder to point out than Hooh gives more president to the improvement and the deeper thought the designers did in order to get these designs down. It's a sign of improvement of creativity
Rayquaza‘s segmented design reminds me more of a Dacian Draco standard than a missile, it’s individual pieces being moved and swung around by the wind, but that’s my personal impression rather than anything official; might be just an association I made because I had paper version of such a dragon as a kid
I loved that ending bit, the different Pokémon all felt fitting for what you were saying when you showed them! Was quite charming ^v^
Funny thing about Rayquaza is supposedly its beta design was actually a birdlike serpent that was white instead of green
Thank you so much for this behind the scenes look.
I make interpretations of Pokemon and trainers in the form of fanart (I'm gonna start sharing them in your discord soon😊) and I totally get the struggle of finding a plausible interpretation for the designs, both of the pokemon and in my case the characters as well.
I think what's more possible with the designs is that its a COMBO of everything, especially the weather trio.
Blast my final fantasy brain hearing Behemoth and Leviathan and suddenly realizing, “Oh! That was their origins!”
Mind you Leviathan is obvious, but Behemoth didn’t really click for me since it is just a giant brute of a monster that drops a giant meteor on its head when it dies. But to hear the explanation actually made me realize a few things and how I could see how that similar mindset when into the Gen 3 legendaries. Not a “this explains everything,” moment but certainly got me to at least notice a few things.
Wait until you learn of Bahamut's origin.
(It may have the same origin as Behemoth, but the description I saw in Wikipedia is more similar to Kyogre. *sigh* I don't know if I'm ready for this rabbit hole right now).
Anyway, Bahamut looks like that because of DnD, and so does the Behemoth.
@@shytendeakatamanoir9740 I think I have a decent understanding of Bahamut between the various places it pops up and other series depictions of “the king of dragons.” But Behemoth (since it isn’t a standard summon and more of a common enemy), I never really gave it as much thought in comparison.
Still, I wouldn’t deny I got plenty to learn by all means.
@@mas8705 Meanwhile, Bahamut's just down there being a giant fish, holding up the world.
1:03 "Rule 34 makes fools of us all eventually" PLEASE I DROPPED MY PHONE WHEN I LAUGHED. THERE'S A CRACK NOOO😭
Conversations around what inspired what and what represents what gets so heated, because people aren't very aware of the amount of crossover concepts have accidentally. The experience I always try to remember in those scenarios to keep myself in check was when I was writing supernatural things into my story, only to a couple years later read Berserk and find out how similar the concepts we used were. Were I to write my story, I would totally be wrongfully assumed to have been inspired by Berserk.
Rayquaza, at some point in the beta had a beak. So Zyzz bird/Quetzalcoatl actually kind of tracks within the potential headspace of the designers at the time. It wasn't even green yet, it's Pokedex described it as the "White Dragon" pokemon.
The divine aspect of Rayquaza ist so strong. The Emerald cutscene looked like Jesus second coming
This was a fantastic video. I love the 60 second format but being the huge Pokenerd I am, and also someone who really enjoys your analytical takes on design I loved the more in depth look !
Rayquaza may not be feathered like a bird, but I buy him being feathered like an arrow. The flaps on its bodies do have that kind of shape language, and it does make sense for rayquaza to pull on that because just like an arrow shoots rapidly through the sky, Rayquaza similarly moves rapidly through the sky. I think it's fitting, and it does strengthen the Quetzaquatle similarity.
I think it's much more likely the weather trio are, if anything, an interpretation of the STORY of Behemoth, Leviathan, and Ziz, rather than directly the creatures themselves.
It also does remind me that Rayquaza was also planned to look a decent bit different. When some of the Beta Gen 3 Pokedex leaked in 2020, Rayquaza was described in its entries to have white scales and a beak.
To Quote my boi imported Cheese, groudon and kyogre are based on barber shop utensils ☠️
While only partly on topic- Behemoth ranges in their description from like oxen to pachyderms. Ons interpretation I like is them as a hippo as it matches both their de scripted habits and their rivalry of leviathan which matches a crocodile
I still dont know how you didn't see Kangaroo when looking at Breloom. Granted, it does have Bird-Like Qualities to it, but between the body plan and the the whole champion level boxer thing. I always thought the inspiration was obvious. But Breloom also pulls from birds and dinosaurs in its design. So idk.
Either way, I am looking forward to the Gen 4 reviews, easily the shortest of the upcoming sections. And I can't wait for gen 5 after guarenteed to be the longest
The biblical Behemoth is almost certainly just a Hippo
I feel like a lot of people always seem to present the theories of Bulbapedia as fact even though there are a lot of loose relations. It's never "I think" but rather "I know". Sure Pokemon can take from different types of sources but it is never a set in stone origin unless it's said officially or its Krabby levels of on the nose. They're just game theories and people never distinguish them as such.
Me when people think the Lati twins are a being of aggregated souls of dead Spiran people that Yuna summons (they are also called aeons so if the Lati twins are aeons they could be summonable by Yuna):
I'm really enjoying your Pokemon reviews :D Even in the tight 60-second format, you can really feel the attention in them
Amazing video, very much supporting you and your approach yo reviewing poke designs! Cant wait to see morem
I always appreciate your interpretations and most of all your design discussion.
The only one I remember you conclusively missed (and I watched them all multiple times) was mega-Ampharos' dragon typing. With three generations down, that's pretty good.
I feel like urshifu is a slothbear but Ive never seen anyone make the connection. Everyone Ive seen says sun bear. but Im sitting here look at its face and personality and thinking "yea thats a sloth bear...."
If I recall correctly I think that in modern Hebrew the word for Leviathan is also used for whales
I love how articulated Skyen is, even when explaining the most basic of things. Very good aproach of a polemic theme that is pokemon!
I got a solid 3 minutes into this video before I realized this wasn't a short 😅. This was such a fun look behind the curtain!
I appreciate your insight in all of these videos. Until now, I've never been a huge fan of Sinnoh designs, so I'm looking forward to having my mind changed by your analyses!
Thanks for sharing your research process with us!
The beta Dex entry for Rayquaza mentioned it having a beak and was pure Flying type. So it could be that it's original design was much more birdlike in appearance
Rayquaza's design to me always came off as an Imoogi, a type of chinese dragon. Rayquaza, like the other 2, feels to me like a mishmash of creatures. Imoogi and quetzacotyl being 2 parts, and likely there are other parts, possibly other mythological dragons, that make up his design.
When I saw your rayquaza video, I remember feeling a bit disappointed by the interpretation. I think, in my mind, the Quetzalcoatl theory had become so synonymous with fact that hearing things like how the segments on rayquaza's body seemed to be inspired by ailleron wings and the more tech-inspired read just -felt- wrong, but honestly, looking at it now from a more balanced perspective, it's a bit silly that I was so ready to just dismiss anything that wasn't the popular theory outright. Great video! Fan theories and the like are cool, but we shouldn't let those cloud our judgment either.
The one that always gets to me is the claim that the XYZ legendaries are based on norse mythology. Other than the animals lining up there is no connection. People saw the designs, made assumptions, and then jumped to conclusions.
Except they are based on Norse mythology as Xerneas is the tree, Yveltal being the bird on top of the tree, and Zygarde being the snake at the bottom of the tree. They do fit that Norse mythology Plus Pokémon also has other things that they are based on so those legendaries are also based on other things as well.
A (deer based on) the tree of life, a bird that sits at the end of life's edge (the tree) and the serpent tasked with keeping them in balance? I feel its a bit more than coincidence they chose it to be like this.
If he says Rayquaza wrong one more time I’m gonna lose it
What i've always missed from your videos is showing a couple clips of a pokemon from the original art or the show itself, theres only so much pokemons 3d models can do and they either make you hate a design, or give you a new found appreciation for a design.
Showing from these could help,
But as you said theres only so much you can put into a 60 second short so its understandable.
Thank you for looking into this and showing us how you research, ignore the haters, keep it up
Interesting thing, as a kid i once bought a red painted chiken and called it blaziken, so it went full circle.
Guess we need to go grab Game Freak and sit them down with Skyen for multiple days so they can confirm the inspiration for over 1,000 Pokemon. I'm sure they'll have no issue recalling them all. 😅
With your reading of the Weather Trio, Rayquaza being emblematic of the Divine and Modern Technology it firmly puts it in the place of Humanity's one power over the forces of nature.
And it works with Rayquaza's on sight rivalry with Deoxys. Deoxys basically being a completely alien and unknown force. A representation of the void of space and what might be lurking out there.
This video was def inspired by the argument you got into with the dude claiming Latios and Latias were based on Aeons
sure, why not
The easiest answer to it, multiple inspirations for a design, others are just interpolation.
Ocean vs Land (Not that hard of an idea)
- Groudon: A dinosaur (Old), mole (Ground) and red (Fire and lava).
- Kyogre: Whale (Ocean related), Weird tail (Breaks the whale design and gives it a mistic look), blue and white (Ocean colors)
- Rayquaza: Asian dragon (Powerful type, mystic by nature, can fly), green (Classic dragon color), weird flippers (Gives it something to just be apart of a clasical dragon, and due the design, makes you think "Fast")
Add weird shapes to unify all of them as 1 trio since a dinosaur, a whale and an asian dragon have nothing to be related and you are finish.
Death of the author is funny with pokemon because game freak is pretty inconsistent with drawing from generalized iconography and hyper specific references. It's interesting to see where that line is shown to be not a line at all.
Darumaka was one of my favorite gen 5 pokemon and it is completely functional in both regards. My enjoyment of the lil guy was completely unaffected by learning of the origin (I think the origin adds to what darumaka brings to the table vs being dependent on it).
Whereas my love for pheremosa is solely because she's a cvnty skinny legend👁️👄👁️🐜 💅✨, but otherwise the actual design doesn't move me at all really. Well actually the bug typing is so fun for her specifically, but the primacy of the concept is so clear with the ultra beast.
Woke up hoping for the start of the Gen 4 shorts and found something even better a 9 minute video!! I really like the breakdown of the Hebrew beast theory, would be interesting to get some more documents or insight from the game developers that might talk more about artistic decisions
It can be all of the above! I recommend the old series The Dex if anyone wants to explore a bunch of possible origins for different Pokémon.
I do wonder how much the games themselves lend themselves to creature design elements, and by that I mean for example how the weather trio are perfect encapsulations of Hoenn and it's varied climate and themes of nature. It feels like a chicken-egg scenario, were the three conceived and the games built to fit a narrative for them or were they designed to fit around any concepts for gen3? Were they designed all at once, was one made and the others created to fit their design, was the duo made and the third added later on? GF themselves seem to take all sorts of paths for making designs, sometimes its mythology, other times it's tropes or archetypes or concepts and other times they're huge amalgamations to embody a concept (Aromatise comes to mind for embodying a lot of influences from it's region all put together). I find it interesting that Rayquaza takes a modern approach and part of me likes to think it'd be funny if the reason the designer gave is 'it looks cool'. All that to say it's quite interesting to analyse how GF make designs but ultimately we won't know unless explicitly stated (and at this moment I immediately thought of that illustration that had a pokemon that was a fusion between Latias and Blaziken which only raises more questions)