Rocket Anti-Lag, making your turbo work like a jet engine- A quick overview and some mythbusting...
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- čas přidán 21. 04. 2024
- There's lots of commonly talked about subjects in tuning, almost mythical cars and setups, with usually very vague or wrong info, and this video covers two well known cars, and two well known setups, which in reality are both the same basic setup. Ie turning their turbos in to jet engines. Rally antilag, but the most 'refined' kind.
Furthermore to that, while people think that this setup is super hi-tech, well, it actually originates from the 1950s, abeit far more refined more now!
The cars this video is about is the 2006 (S12) onwards Subaru Impreza WRC, and Nic Mann's Mannic Beattie hillclimb car. And the two setups it's about is the Prodrive "Rocket" anti-lag system, and the Mannic Beatties turbo setup, which most people say is span by a helicopter gas turbine engine (it DOES use some parts, most likely the combustion chamber).
Well, not all people agree, certainly not the owner/builder/driver, Nic Mann, who even SAYS otherwise in this video, and he built it so he should know more than anyone else lol.
You wouldn't use as turbine to spin a turbine (ie the turbo), this setup uses a jet engine style combustor which spins the turbine.
The main difference is the Subaru uses the fuel and ign from the engine in the combustor as external sources aren't allowed by the rules, where Nic Mann's awesome car uses a traditional jet engine combustor where the fuel and ignition is ignited in the combustor.
The French Leclerc tank uses this same basic setup as part of its Hyperbar engine (like Nic Mann's, as no rules to prevent fuel being injected directly in to the combustor!)
This video is a mix of technical and "wow that's mental" video footage that I can't imagine anyone who's seriously in to tuning wouldn't love.
As ever, its nothing "New" (Though I doubt any of you have seen all of this info/pics/vids!), but it's all the correct info explained properly as one package, with all the 99.99% BS that's usually there all removed.
Enjoy.
Stav. - Auta a dopravní prostředky
what is F-ing point of racing if they ban any new technology development that gives the drivers a competitive edge? it feels like these racing leagues are just propaganda machines for a hand full of already dominant Brands.
Yeah. But racing lives in finding the gaps in between regulations to get competitive advantage. This gap was then closed, but, was a very good one. Just look at formula one for an example
Trouble is, the best advantages and gaps get closed practically immediately, usually 1 race later, which is a real shame
@@StavTechunless your mercedes
Racing isn't about going fast. It's about the people in the stands that are footing the bill for all of this. If one car has too much of a edge, all you have to do is look at Gordon in 94-95 he went from being the Wonderboy to being hated by the end of 95. People want a show not the same guy walking the field every race. And if the people aren't interested they don't show up or don't watch. Nobody watches, nobody sponsors.
New tech development? That happens regardless of bans, the bans happen to keep competition affordable and close for the teams that aren’t walking around with billion dollar budgets
I came for the drum and bass, stayed for the turbos.
yes
Haha n1 😅💪🏻💪🏻
mode selecta!
Hahah 😂
Yep!
Man, the music, transitions, font, and overall video quality made me feel like I was on CZcams for the very first time again back in 2008... So I had to look and make sure the upload date was accurate 🤣 I learned a lot, felt nostalgic, and really enjoyed this from start to finish! Easy sub 💯
I bet this youtuber is an old man
shit had me feelin nostaligical
If replacing a turbocharger is your idea of "regular maintenance", these are great!
all types of anti lag destroy turbos this is just a better variant of anti lag
@@millll111lllI compressor inlet
Depends on where ur turbo is located 😂. On a subaru stock location... fk that lol! I did 2 in a year and they are a major pain especially to get rhe lower solicon hose to sit around the lower turbo flange without kinking. Fk im having flashbacks as i write this...
@CVBFonzP7B yea but my 1980 vw rabbit pickup with a brand new diesel engine... I want that thing to eat ebay turbos every year it's easy to work on haha
Was thinking the same...your turbos won't last but...gotta pay to play
iirc one of the benefits of this rocket type ALS is it does not reach as high exhaust temperature as just adding fuel and air into the turbo, it uses the air swirling around to keep it at a certain temp so it does not wear things out so rapidly as conventional anti lag.
It’s basically a a combustion chamber like in a jet engine.
I looked at regular ALS as fuel burning into the turbo, where rocket burns it before, therfore putting "exhaust" into the turbo. Saving temps & turbo wear as you say.
It's absoluty strange and almost kind of creepy to hear the Turbo spooling with the engine just idleing lol....
You were always the Diamond in the magazine days. Nice job brother 🤘🤘
Rally cars back then just sounded more glorious especially with proper anti lag this type of system was a league of its own cant believe it was invented in the 50s !! I thought it was a prodrive thing.. and that glorious compressor surge absolutely love the builds and channel ❤
Audi Umluft system was also interesting utilizing multiple air paths and wastegates to accomplish less turbine spin-down between shifts back in Gruppe B days
Umluft is exactly what fresh air antilag is today. Exaclty. Was next used on Celica GT4s and Evos, then almost all WRCs after 1997. Just Turbosmart and others like to pretend it’s something new to sell stuff. And Ferrari and Alfa both used it before Audi did, but in F1.
@@StavTech How is fresh air injected into the exhaust? Do you need to be making more boost than EMAP for it to function? Does it work off a venturi?
@@dickard8275 it’s not really ‘fresh’ air, it just means air bypassing the engine totally, from boost pipe to exhaust manifold.
And only works when boost pressure is higher in the boost pipes than exhaust manifold, which to be fair is most times off throttle with ALS on.
Almost always needs some normal throttle bypass ALS to work correctly and to start it off, much like rocket does.
best way to show this works, as always Stav, I enjoyed this. You should have been a teacher
He is. Just on a better platform, reaching more people
I remember Nic Mann’s TT Morris Minor. That thing was ridiculous! A true innovator.
Worked with the guy who put that system on his road going Sti. Presume that’s his hold blue Impreza in the video.
Worked on that system back in the day @Prodrive.
Always wanted to make one for years, something will come up reminding me and I'll start my obsession again
Fantastic. Always Loved Rocket ALS. Spent so many hours searching, reading, watching videos, patents, etc about it. This video puts it all in one.
Time to build one for one of your cars. 😁😁👍👍
Great to see you back posting, found you on instagram and realised I first saw you here. Cool stuff mate love it
thank you for posting this. cleared all questions ive had since a kid
This is the reason why I love engineering. Thanks for sharing!!
This was ace info! Cheers for sharing as always!
No worries, this is just a basic video made from clips I did years ago, just realised I never uploaded it to CZcams 😂
I’ll do a better and more detailed video showing my antilag etc on my car soon as I get a chance to
Great music, rally racing secrets and turbos, what an awesome video
this video feels like it was uploaded in 2006
For real
Is this a re-upload? I swear ive seen this video a few years back... Still watched the whole thing over, because of how perfect the video is!!!
I posted it on my Facebook years ago and only just realised I didn’t on CZcams!
@@StavTech that's where I must've watched it... It was a well put together video! I'm currently experimenting with making a quick spool kit, using compressed air roughly 200 bar from scuba diving tank, with a high flow regulator to spray directly at the exhaust wheel. I'm using a stainless fan nozzle drilled and tapped into my exhaust housing. My dad used the same principal with nitrous back in the late 90s on his turbo dragbike aka funnybike that ran 6.60's at 212mph it worked great, minus the cold nitrous hitting the turbine wheel caused micro cracking from thermal shock, I'm changing it up and using a higher temp option with highpressure compressed air
@@StavTech turbo currently in the car is a clone t72 dualceramicbb .96ar merged t4 hotside with a small block ford still a 302ci with heads comp cam and Victor efi intake manifold on pump E85
@@Pro5.0 funny you should mention that as it’s something I’d be VERY interested in trying, as should work.
Seen Volvos “Powerpulse” they use on one of their diesel car engines? Same basic thing, think they’re only using 10bar, a small 2ltr tank, and an electric air compressor to recharge it.
But it works
@StavTech I'd have to find it but there's a turbo 1.8 miata(mx5) here on CZcams that runs a compressed air spool setup with a jatco auto transmission and it absolutely works great with a standard onboard air ride style air compressor at standard air compressor pressures(like 125-150psi). Unknown on what tank size or -an feed sizes and nozzle
This whole vid makes me happy
Fair play Stav. Good informative shiz as normal
This is really awesome!
Nice one! Big Bad Wolf S2000 is also a nice "recent" project with similar system.
Yes indeed. Worked well for him
Loving the Gran Turismo 2 era/level menu music!
Knowing abt Manic beattie, you know you’re stuff
I’ve been wanting to do this too would be so cool
Love this tech
The car switching the system on and off at a standstill is so damn cool
Great tech and great vid
You have awesome videos please make more
Awesome video on some cool technology I'd never heard of!!
Didn't know you could upload a VHS tape to CZcams tho lol
my old subaru wrx had this and it was really weird switched on to get used to. People actually laughed saying thats not antilag because its not popping flames or sounding like its on a limiter. it ate 5 speeds and td06's though as it was too much fun off the line.
Finally I haven't seen one of these in a while
Great vid
i like the contempary 2006 youtube music !
Seeing that Subaru launch that hard while making next to no noise is such a crazy sight.
Some of the coolest sht I ever seen. This is the sort of stuff that makes electric cars such boring e-waste shtboxes.
damn, this is like a afterburner from a jet, interesting!
Awesome!!! Might have to throw one on the Stage 1 GTI!!😂.
Whoa. I've heard of Subaru's rocket anti-lag, but I always thought it was just an special chamber with specifically designed inlet ports to create swirl. I didn't realize there was a standalone turbine!!
No turbine
I would love to build something like this for my car but cant imagine buying a new turbo every weekend :P
Just lower your EGT.
This is good stuff.
‼️ Now THAT was interesting ‼️
Outstanding
sounds so cool
Great quality
Very cool to see a break down. Wonder about extra wear and abuse on parts.
it kills turbos. probably other components too but idk
Rotaries spit out a bunch of unburnt fuel... This work brilliantly on them i would pressume!
to my knowledge, this or something similar was used in Group B (specifically Audi) where they injected fuel into the exhaust gasses when releasing the accelerator to keep the turbo spinning.
Nic mann was such a genius. So that why his morris minor v8 popped.
so i assume for this you need an electric oil pump for the turbo since it will be rotating faster then the oil can feed because crankshaft is at low rpm, and how would it work with a higher hp car?
even at low rpm, the engine is supplying 40psi of pressure to the turbo. They have restrictors to prevent too much oil, actually. No need for additional oiling.
the ridiculously stupid idea i came up with a week ago has been done??? i think it's better than what i was think too. bloody hell
I relate to this. I also have a mind that's constantly trying to invent new and improved things, and it's frustrating continuously finding decade old patents for what you thought _must_ finally be an original idea. I often see it proposed that human technology peaked in the 1960's, and everything since has been derivative. I don't want to believe that, but the older I get and the more I learn, the more open to that proposal I become.
What is the switch in the Subaru controlling? Was the rocket system mechanically bypassed, or did the engine computer just switch to a certain profile?
No way didn’t know this was stavros from redline magazine
It got me into modifying car’s first magazine I bought
This is epic
super vid thx!
Just as another commentator, I saw this video years ago and couldn't wrap my head around it. Now I own an 1.8T and understand turbos way better. So a question just came up about the turbo spinning at it's full speed at idle. Since the engine is idling, is there enough oil pressure to lubricate the turbo enough for it to spin this fast without damaging it? Or ist that the point you were trying ot make with the picture of the blown turbo? Greetings from Germany!
I was thinking, what about the idle oil pressure of the engine and the work load on the turbo bearings. there's enough pressure to keep it protected?
Basically using a het to spin your engine now lol. Mega cool.
What exactly is being switched when the system is on or off? Extra fuel that makes it to the combustor? A valve of some sort?
What does the extra heat do for the lifespan of the turbo?
I’m very curious on how the turbo wear is with something like this as it won’t crest as much heat as regular anti lag especially if you can turn it on and off. Would love to try it on a drift car
ty stav ty ty my good man
excellent stav thanks mate never knew of this …
could you do a vid talking about how this could be done for a car project build ?
I’ll do a proper video on antilag in other forms when I get a chance
Pretty cool premise. Way over my head as far as technical understanding, but i appreciate the share.
I’ha having tons of ideas right now hahaha
check out @robert_thorne8 he had it on his S2000. He has a video talking about it.
Fucking amazing video, attention grabbing, great timing, great resources, great music. A++
Wow thank you, good review! 👏
Ok wait... Are we all just going to overlook the fkn INSANE deep-dished forged center-locks on my man's car @6:11!!?!?!?! 😱😱😱
Could that be built between the high pressure and low pressure turbo on a compound set up? On a diesel for example?
Yeah I guess so, no reason why not.
And good thing about jet engines is they run on diesel normally, there’s no issues with fuel at all.
Its on an om606 in a truck. It makes no boost belowl 2200 rpm, it sure makes lots of smoke down there, but it would need an additional source of fuel /spark and air no? @StavTech
Dusold designs have one on their camaro. Theres a video interview on HPA's channel. Really interesting tech.
When the turbo spools at idle, doesn't it also induce a lot of stress into the combustion chamber?
How does one manage getting all the extra oil pressure into the turbo at such low engine RPM with such high turbo RPM? Im not real smart, does the turbo pull its own vacuum for oil pressure? Otherwise, wouldnt the turbo bearing wear out super fast?
can we have a look on the one thats in your mr2?
P
I
D
Is a beautiful thing!
Brilliant
SO badass
this video is like a time travel back to 2013. subbed
That’s about when I made it, and only realised the other day I never bothered to upload it 😂
What happends if you redirect compressed air from the turbo into the exhaust?
infinite boost
just gotta comment and say what is the music you were using in this?
God knows, I made this many many years ago, can’t remember a thing about it now, sorry
Bruno E - Cosmic Love. Its beneath the description
when the vehicle is at idle, where is all the excess boost going.. id imagine thru the crank case ? and maybe bov stuck open as well. i came from ig you post some interesting stuff.
I need this on my Volvo
This tech drives me nuts because its honestly an extremely simple device, its just that it needs dedicated computer control and its own control maps, and a well designed combustor to work. Flow-through combustors are very unforgiving if you dont get the combustor design and fueling just right.
And those aspects are VERY difficult for a shade tree tuner to build and tune from scratch.
Meanwhile, theres not much of a market in aftermarket to justify development costs.
And OEMs wont touch the concept because it'd just use more fuel.
How do the con rods not bend with so much boost at so low rpms?
By being strong as fuck!
The only useful bit of kit ive seen able to put any power down usefully was the car that was built then immediately outlawed for the pikes peak hill climb was the one that applied a vacuum down onto the asphalt as it aero package.. the thing was electric i think and completely dominated all times and impossible turn rate with the vacuum holding the tires to the road.. that shit was beyond crazy seeing how fast it was from takeoff to end.. like a slot car just go and friggn try to keep your eyes on it before it was gone..
Thats crazy so ur basically in boost at idle/all times after u rev it for a few secs
Honestly, it sounds a lot like McMurtry Spierling at standstill.
Could you make a special 144p version of this?
And if so, why not do that the first time? Instead of stopping at 360p, and then upscaling?
120k revs to 50 in .20 seconds, how much g forces is that ?
Is that the force that kills turbos this way ? by fluttering it out through the housing and compressor wheel ?
High exhaust temps is what mostly kills it, or accidental overspeeding it.
so when you add this will you need to run richer than previous setup/tune?
With anything like this the tune will change when you switch it on. You don’t just run this on the stock ecu
This makes me wonder what would happen if you put a turbine style blade in the exhaust system before the Turbo.
1:35 reminds me of the first time you tried to cuss as a kid
you had me at "how hell bloody fuck"
I thought my Uncle, Dad and I invented antilag on a '65 Turbo Corsa Corvair that was my High School ride '75-'77.
In short if a person kept opening the throttle while simultaneously retarding the ignition we found that after about ten seconds we could keep idle rpm of 850 with 10psi of boost! The exhaust pipes were yellow-hot and that couldn't be good. Drank fuel like crazy, too.
Uncle Jerry invented "The Mechanical Switch" because it operated sort of like a railroad track switch.
Mode 1 = Locked distributor, carb throttle controlled by right foot (ran as originally made)
Mode 2= Carb throttle locked open, distributor free to rotate from MINUS 24 DEGREES TIMING (idle) to the normal 24 Before Top Dead Center when gas pedal floored.
Noooo. You "invented" 2-step, which is completely different than anti-lag
The crunchy resolution, choppy frame-rate, impact font on everything, the drum and bass. I feel like I'm watching a video from 2008 and it's all of my yes!!
So how does this fare when pitted against the LSPI boogeyman? It's taught knowledge that having high boost at low RPM opens up the possibility of predetonation, but I'm not seeing that in play here.
Wouldnt running the turbo at high RPM with low engine RPM cause insufficient lubrication?
Could be, but at the same time, any als isnt made with turbo durability in mind, its built for speed
No. Turbos don’t require particularly high oil pressure, and unless your engine is running very low oil pressure, which is a problem in itself, lower rpm shouldn’t cause low oil pressure
Any one read about Soviet turbo charged WW2 aircraft and their anti lag systems?
They essentially block the intake to increase turbo rpm! It works the same way as using a hoover! When you block the suction and the rpm greatly increases.
if you look at my previous videos I did that many years ago on one of my own cars
@@StavTech I take it is the "102mm throttle, mounted BEFORE the turbo? Anti lag? Junk?" video?
Easy thing ! A stroke funnel that ask by drill fuel savers threw xhamber of !
Train Overpressure brake air ventileson hoses are goid by too that press spring in cage with bullit by pressure over thought out off and reathem ;) :))
Hell on Fiestie that so unallowed today by GFJ Ford art :))
Think I know this as Hyper Charging, old tanks back in the day did it to keep turbo at max boost at idle.
Hyperbar you mean, the LeClerc tank used it, yes
-Separate not 'seperate' aaarrgghhh it looks so bad. That Subaru was a monster.. Subbed.
Sorry spelling police 👮
@@StavTech I couldn't help it. It's like OCD.... I find it hard to ignore. Don't take it personally I enjoyed the video a lot.
Seperate 😅 just for you
@@contractor556 😁
I see someone found the patent or paper on the old combustion unit for turbochargers.
how do we apply this to a dual volute turbo?
two rocket manifolds per turbo?
Generally, you just don’t.
@@StavTech no... the correct answer is they just havent yet 😉
imagine a vr8 or horizontally opposed 8, something with 180° crank, with either freevalve or rotory valve heads, running two dual volute turbos, with four of these for manifolds...
youd have like... 1000hp from idle...
@@KaosProject21 no, the correct answer is they wouldn’t. When you have zero lag anyhow from this, why go to the complication of twin scroll? You don’t.
If you want twin scroll, you use other forms of rally antilag, which they do. Inc me