Steam 101: What does a steam loco THROTTLE look like, and how does it work?
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- čas přidán 13. 07. 2024
- RGS 20 is almost back in service, and thanks to a good question on the channel I got off my butt and climbed on top to film what the throttle looks like before we sealed it off. This is what a steam dome throttle looks like!
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When teaching people how to run a steam locomotive I have had to explain the balance point on a throttle and how it can spring open or closed. Depending on the amount of opening it is possible to go either way. Always check your quadrant spring at the beginning of a shift. The balance point is the most efficient throttle opening but must be used when near track speed and then overall speed controlled by cutoff.
Taming the WILD in the iron horse is a constant endeavor.
As to those who are wondering how to tame a runaway, centering the reverser and opening the cylinder cocks usually works with a little help from the brakes.
Yup! Entirely based on how much steam is charged ahead of the throttle prior to the steam chest. If you completely saturate that volume with boiler pressure steam, you can get all sorts of interesting throttle behavior, such as the little engines being sprung open right before they're about to slip. It's a very nuanced and interesting thing. Well said, Ryan.
Thank you for the pin.
Thanks again professor for a great tutorial.
no no no. you cant just leave it at "runaway train, ask me how i know" we need to know.
That sounds like a story for 3/4 idiot
Suppose I'll film a video about that sometime soon... lol
@@Hyce777 yes please! and also what you did about it then, really curious how one would deal with that
Brakes, now which lever is it that applies the locomotive brakes ? 😬
@@Hyce777 please do :)
4:30 Air compressor's gotta get it's "Air time"
Haha! Yes, that look of disapproval of the Air Time from Hyce at 4:34 for half a second cracked me up! Such a quick transition of it and back to topic on hand, wonderful
I've heard two tales this week about engines that ran away from leaky throttles. Never realized that was a common occurrence lol. Should show the folks how fun sealing up one of those domes can be 😏
I fit inside the dome 346! The throttle was out though. That peak down to the tubes gave a flashback of claustrophobia when I was working on 346’s dry pipe. I was ok most of the time but got a little stuck a couple times and had to do some deep breathing to calm down and work my way out.
Yeah that makes sense. I've felt claustrophobic in 491's boiler, so I can only imagine 346's. You've gotta take the throttle out of all three of them to have a chance, and I don't fit in 346 even with it out.
I've never been able to squeeze by the throttle on any of the locomotives, it was always a pipe dream to squeeze by.
Limes.
a fun look into the bitz that make the Choo-choo go Chug chug.
Hyce! no make the Choo-choo leave with nobody at the throttle.
"You can have a runaway locomotive, ask me how I know"
Well since you asked. How do you know?
'Tis a story worth a video, I suppose I can record that for sometime soon.... ;)
491 just cosplaying as a babbling brook is great.
She definitely sounds that way with the leaky whistle valve, lol.
Awesome!! Never knew what they looked like! Thank you!!
Wow the amount of engineering that went into making these beasts work is incredible, and I love learning more about it! Thanks!
Thank you, Hyce, for these detailed explanations of how steam locomotives work. Your videos are both instructive and entertaining!
It is a balanced poppet valve. They were also used in the Cincinnati Triple Steam water plant.
Keith Rucker has an amazing posting on how the throttle valves are repaired and lapped. Hyce. He does a lot of work on Locomotives in the Georgia area. Very nice guy. You should connect with him. Nice presentation - well done
Thank you! Please, continue providing very in depth knowledge about steam locomotives!
After playing with both dome throttles and multiple front end throttles I much prefer a front end throttle, as long as it's set up right.
I sincerely cannot blame you on that. Front end throttles sound like heaven.
Neat, really demystifies the enigma steam power once was to me.
So, how do you know? I'd love to hear that story. Also, thank you for posting such amazing content. This stuff fills a hole in my life that I didn't know I had.
I'll explain it on the channel soon.
Very nice! I've seen some pics on Facebook of the Frisco 1630s throttle valve, and its very similar (thought obviously bigger, ya know standard gauge Decapod things) IIRC. Also happened to notice Smokebox is working on a UP 0-6-0 (S-6 Class specifically I believe) for TS:C, so that should be fun...
Thx for showing this to us!
It blows my mind, how komplex steam locomotives are!
Thanks Hyce! This was really cool!
Thank you so much for sharing this! Been wanting to see the inside of a throttle dome for as long as I can remember and you explain this so eloquently!
I really enjoy you sharing of how the steam locomotives operation from the wake up firing to the running thank you never tire of your videos
Hyce, You are a super smart dude about anything trains or steam!! Love your videos and have learned something from them!!! Keep it up buddy!
Greatly enjoyed this video!
0:55 I don't know why, but I was half expecting a jump scare.
Informative, thanks for a great video.
Very cool Thank you.Have a great day
Thaks Hyce
This is a first I have seen this and how cool.
at several points I was waiting for Hyce to drop the camera.
make it a special steam 101 episode
Dropping something in the dome, is one of the worst freaking feelings in the world. Ask me how I know.
Ty and greetings from Germany
We pulled the throttle out of Ventura County #2 recently. Holy cow it’s a tight space getting in there
Nooooo kidding. Not fun
@@Hyce777 Yeah… it’s funny I can fit between the frame but not inside the dome lol
One loco I heard of in Britain (in preservation!), a small saddle tank, had a hole in the dry pipe; so effectively you couldn't shut it off. One guy managed to pull a train out of the station with the reg handle in the fully closed position. She got better by the way, they mended the dry pipe. Still, quite frightening to envisage!
Yowza! Yeah, that's terrifying.
Can you show how the air line couplers work? It looks like they lock together but are designed so they can be pulled apart by the cars separating rather than having to be manually disconnected.
You could also talk about the valves and how this can relate to kicking and humping cars.
So thats how it works. Its simpler, but also slightly more complicated then what I thought with the different seats. That explains how engines could drive themselves through the back of the roundhouses or into the pits.
I knew 20 was apart and getting ready to go back together but holy crap, I didnt know she was THAT close. Aint got no luck left over for the lottery now. lol.
Thank you SO MUCH for climbing up there and giving us a look.
The further insight and information that has spawned in the comments is AMAZING. Dual seat balanced poppet valve, the fact on larger engines theres a small one that opens before the large one to make it easier to open. My god, I think we've spawned one of the most informative comment sections on youtube!
It is awesome to help foster this community. Again, thank you for the question that spawned this video!
@@Hyce777 You're very welcome!
About a year ago, Kieth Rucker did a video of refacing and lapping a throttle. I'm pretty sure it was a smaller one though.
Thank you, that's a rare look at a critical part. I don't know why I never thought of it before.
The giant throttle valve in the 491 perhaps was installed after the incident with the faulty throttle valve that caused it to walk away? Or perhaps it's just the nature of the beast, their construction reminds me of a truck in a fleet I used to manage, it was a Ford Bronco. It was purchased on a fleet contract, and Ford fulfilled it by slapping together whatever parts were around, regardless of if they were meant to go together, because several times it was brought to dealerships who asked when it was re-built after the wreck, and how bad the wreck was, because this configuration did not exist (It was never wrecked and belonged to our org. since new). It was a 4x4 with a 3+OD auto (and we all know how much horsepower the average Ford slushbox soaks up) and a very tall rear-end (I forget the exact number) being powered by a 5-litre "High Output" V8. Well let me tell you, it wasn't high enough, because this was a truck that if you put on the air con in the cab and tried to go up a hill on the highway, you had to plant your foot just to come close to maintaining 55. It did get unusually good fuel economy for such a truck, which is something, I guess.
Nature of the beast; she was retired after the walk away incident. It's the same valve as the other K-37's, just mounted higher, so far as I can tell. Thanks for the story!
Huh, never realized some steamers had the equivalent of a PTO. I always seem to think of plows and cranes and stuff having boilers, at least small ones, onboard.
I hope you can get some shots of the throttle on 491 soon!
Maybe it is not as important in such small locomotive, but throttles of large locomotives (working on higher pressure) operate in two steps. First the little plug is lifted in the center of the bigger plug to equalize pressures and allow to more easily lift the big plug 😉
On the other hand, some small 0-4-0 low-pressure narrow gauge locomotives had external throttle valves of simpler construction (just bigger cock valve), e.g. German "Riesa" and its Polish descendant "Ryś" before 1948 (since when it had been equipped with internal throttle).
Not all big engines have the two-stage throttle valves; 491 has a compound lever, where you have more advantage and less travel to start, and then once you get further open, it flips to be more opening for less mechanical advantage, but all with the same giant plug. But yeah, lots of non USA power has the two stage ones, which are neat.
nice video.
Hyce PLEASE give us the runaway train stories
If I remember correctly, didn't 20 also technically 'run away'.
I believe she walked out of the yard.
Probably? that's not a story I recall but I would not be surprised. 491 did that, if it's a story that I told. lol
To think I'm learning more about locomotives from a gamer who plays a niche train game
You had me at Doughnuts 😃 Seriously Hyce that was one of best description of how the Throttle valve works. Shit. I understood that! And I know those Ks won't go 88 Doc. I'm not a Idiotic*1/8rh of one maybe More Choo Choo 🚂make mongo happy 😁😊. Thank you.
Mongo like candy. You're welcome! :)
Nice
I’m new to the channel but I’m going to need to hear that story about the run away.
It's going to be a video, most likely next week.
Aw no boiler gremlins 😢
*Hyce talks about leaky throttle valves*
Ah yes, night crawlers are always fun~
No, no they aren't. lmao
If the throttle seeps by a little bit, can you compensate by opening the cylinder cocks to let the steam out of the cylinders rather than runaway the locomotive? Worked in power plant steam systems, and yeah a two-seat valve like that is a lot easier to open against steam pressure than a single plug style.
Yup, center the bar, open the cocks, and there you go.
this is amazing. and more so that you are able to film there. i`m not much of a train lover, but this content you bring is great
That will be another video later this week... lol!
@@Hyce777 #stromboli/chefboyardi_moment
@@Spook_Boi huh yeah I really didn't get to making that video did I
🤘
I’ve always wondered why the bell hanger has “wings(?)” on it
They're called anti-rollover bars, it prevents the bell from doing flips, which is a concern with pneumatic swinging air ringers, and troubled firemen...
I have a friend that used to spin the bell to annoy management, and he did it so hard he unseated the bell from it's taper and flung it off the locomotive once....
3:58 is that a reference to SPNG 18’s incident on the D&SNGRR that your friend was on?
Just a general statement about what can happen, I am not sure why 18 blew her heads off.
What do you guys use to seal the seam on non welded or hammer caulked seems like under the plate atop steam dome, also needs skinny long arms for the one steam dome you guys could use my help lol my arms are so long I required second largest the largest horse bow for mounted archery when I ordered one last week I have a 35 inch bow draw they only come in 36 otherwise it's special order
Nice, you'd be good at taking throttles out... lol!
The cap of the dome is sealed with a large annealed copper gasket, and usually something along the lines of graphite paste as well.
Was that 491 having an attitude in the background? @4:33? The look on your face was that of someone who’s had to deal with her mood swings and isn’t having any of it 💀
well....hes talking about another engine so she probably got jalous :-D
Pretty sure it's the air compressor's overpressure relief valve
That's the shop air compressor's automatic water drain valve. Goes off maybe every 30 minutes or so, and of course it was midway through filming. lol
@@Hyce777 Ah, that makes more sense.
@@Hyce777 ah, alrighty. I’m guessing the safety valve on a train engine wouldn’t pop and then close again that fast? I used to test safety valves but I wasn’t qualified to test the steam, only low pressure air and water and those would close pretty snappy once the pressure went below the spring strength.
6:34 I call. I'd like to hear the story.
hey hyce i have an important question for you. if you could build your dream locomotive what would it look like? things like the wheel configuration, the chimney type, the fuel type, the headlight placement, any streamlining, the road name and number... just out of curiosity. also love this video ive always wondered what the throttle valve looked like!
I'd have to think about the dream loco question!
I would do a 2-8-8-2 with a headlight on center of smoke box and mallet type then Coal
What water treatment are you using on 20's boiler? There is a lot of surface rust on the inside. Also what is being done on the 20?
Terlyn 4000. Every boiler has surface rust on the inside.
The name's Mark doughnut done, inspector of of the steam train doughnut domes! The word "dome" has been forever ruined (or improved)
so if you have a runaway locomotive how do you stop that?
i assume you have to set the johnson bar in the postion where there is no valvue travel.
That's one piece of it, brakes are the next, as well as opening cylinder cocks just in case.
So hyce, how do you keep steam from shooting out the steam dome or out the backhead? As the linking rod from the cab has to run into the pressurized boiler?
The steam dome has a large copper gasket, and all of those studs that hold it down tight.
The linking rod in the cab comes out of a packing gland, which holds special sealing material tight against the rod, preventing leaks.
@@Hyce777 that makes sense! What would the packing be made of? Thanks!
@@TrainznProgress Originally, an asbestos and lead rope (yes, just that toxic... lol!) these days, it's a flavor of teflon impregnated rope that's similar to teflon tape, but much larger and industrial.
Soo line 2719s throttle leaked, it started to roll onto the main line where it got hit by a coal train.
Ouch.
Is there any difference in shape/ upper to lower seat ratio with different boiler pressures?
Hmm, now that is a piece of design information I'm not sure about. One would assume that it would be a ratio always based on pressure but I don't know. Let me see what I can find out.
Hey Mark mice video man I always wondered how the throttle worked. Hey are you doing a video tomorrow of a new video game? I saw your live stream yesterday also just wondering do you think you could show us some parts or anything on 491 or 20 that are from other engines? Just wondering I know you did that with 346 not that long ago. Anyway grea Vodafone look forward to seeing more from you soon man. Jeff aka NW611J.
It's not a new video game. ;) Showing parts on 20 off of other engines... lord, that would be a long video. lol. But, one worthy of doing!
@@Hyce777 aww ok cool just wondered if that would be something you would think about doing. So what is the video game that will be in your next video sirry if I thought it was new?
6:35 ok google, how does Mark know that if the plug is open just *that* much, the engine will run away?
You'll see next week on the channel...
Considering the only thing the trottle is doing is limiting flow, not pressure, does this mean that the locomotive would have the same power at 10% throttle as it does on 100%, just limiting speed of the engine?
It depends; because at lower settings, the steam does lose pressure as it runs to the engine (expansion into the drypipe / steam chest), though you are correct once you've got a saturated dry pipe and flow through the throttle.
How come they don't have a shut off valve so the engine doesn't runs away?
That's what the brakes, johnson bar, and cylinder cocks are for. If you had an inline shut-off valve, it would reduce the flow significantly (globe valves / shutoff valves are huge flow restrictors) so the engine wouldn't really work well. Butterfly and ball valves wouldn't really be feasible in that size, scale, or operation, either.
How did u get upp on top of the lokomotiv
they are designed so you can safely climb on top, it's just not easy to film it while I do it haha
6:34 well all I can say is: How *do* you know prof. Hyce?
To be discussed, on another video... ;)
I suppose some might wonder with two valve seats, Does the steam only enter through the top one, and then go through the bottom one to the dry pipe, or does steam enter both the top and bottom of the casting (through both valve seats) from the boiler to the dry pipe? :)
No the steam goes up through the bottom seat and down through the top seat. That way you have steam pressure pushing up against the bottom and also down from the top. So the force of the steam acting on that large circular area is cancelled out by the force pushing the other seat in the opposite direction. As he pointed out, with the bottom one (where steam is pushing upward to open the valve) is a little bit smaller, so overall the net force of steam acting on the two seats is downward to help the engineer closing the valve.
@@mikefochtman7164 great explanation, thank you
Mike answered your question quite well. Cheers Mike, and good question Bryan! Hard to visualize the complete system without the cap on.
@@Hyce777 yeah, I kind of knew the answer, but from the angle you had to film at, I could see someone wondering about that. The field of steam engineering both stationary and mobile is very fascinating and the engineering that goes into making it work is amazing. I think we were smarter in 1910 then we are now in a lot of ways. I am a stationary engineer who also does controls work occasionally. I have books on boilers and boiler controls dating to 1880 and the mechanical controls they had back then were just fascinating. What is more interesting is now with digital electronics we still do the exact same thing. We still control the air, the fuel feed, etc. only now, if power goes out, or lightning hits the power lines, the boilers shut down. Back then weights, diaphragms, and levers didn't care if electrons were moving or not. George Stephenson is one of my hero's, as well as others. Anyhow, tomorrow I have to go help button up a locomotive for winter storage.....having had our first snow fall already here in NE. Ohio. :( Thankfully it didn't stick.
@@s16100 I too dabble in process controls. Loved tinkering with the old pneumatic ones (3-15 psi control loops etc..)
Another fun bit of history is boiler chemistry. Limiting scale was always an issue. Trivia, one company that made a product called 'calcium gone' abbreviated to 'Calgon' and were making soaps and detergents into the 70's. It was a mix of tri and di phosphate to prevent boiler scale, but when phosphate pollution became an issue, it fell on hard times.
Interesting! This loco have a superheater?
It does not; saturated steam only.
I'd like to ask "how you know?". WE WANT TO KNOW!
I'll explain it on the channel soon.
So there is nothing preventing the valve from sticking open eh? Hmm, looks ripe for runaways if anything goes wrong.
the top seat being bigger than the bottom seat makes the steam pressure hold the valve closed.
@@Hyce777 Ooooooooo interesting. Thanks for the info (as always) great stuff!
You dared us, so how DO you know about run-away engines??? :)
I'll let you all know later this week.
Hyce why haven't we seen much of 346?
She is out of service for her 1472 day inspection. She will be out of service for a few years, most likely. I'll be doing a video about that sooner or later.
@@Hyce777Thanks! Looking forward to seeing her soon
It’s very rusty in there I wonder when it’s boiler inspection is when all that rust and crud will get removed
That's what the inside of a boiler looks like, my dude.
And I assume that's a cast iron component, not bronze, correct?
The donut is bronze, the throttle plug and body are all cast iron or cast steel, so far as I know.
Will you ever have a chance to show off a front-end throttle on the channel? (I know you have LOADS of spare time 😂)
I don't exactly have one I have easy access to, lol! 5629's probably hasn't been apart since the early 1960's so that would be a lot of work... lol
@@Hyce777 That’s valid-plus no sense in tearing it apart unless it were going to be restored. (I’d imagine air tools would be required. And PB Blaster)
Oh no, do I want to know?
It's not scary. But it is another Mike oops..
5:37wat happened to 491?
Id like to know that too.
I'll film a video about it sometime soon. haha
@@Hyce777 thank you
I have a question about double acting regulators
Now we all know wat happens with a multiple valve regulator when priming
Do you also struggle to get the regulator close when the engine is priming?
@@laaity nope, these shut pretty easily even when priming.
@@Hyce777 woah really
So even if your boiler pressure and main steam equalize it's easy to shut?
I would like to know how to get a job at the museum and work with you guys because Im in school and we are looking at jobs we want to do plus Im a idiot and a steam nerd 😉. But it will be a few years like 2025-2030
Get lucky, and work hard! The jobs at museums are few and far between. It was luck that I was able to get the gig I got. Don't let that stop you though!
6:30. How do you know?
Coming soon on the channel....
@@Hyce777 looking forward to that :)
Why would a steam locomotive want to throttle its steam? Isn't that a loss of energy? I thought the engineer regulated power by operating the valves on the cylinders. If there is too much pressure in the boilers, why not just have the safety valve take care of it.
how do you know?
491 got stuck open one day. I need to tell that story over video.
It’s always comical when someone introduces themselves as a different name than their name tag lol. Get a Velcro name tag for videos!
Lol, I really should. My real name is Mark, I'm just stuck with Hyce for the channel. :)
@@Hyce777 haha I know it’s just funny!
What is a "blue Peter incident?"
Search for it on CZcams. a British engine named the blue peter primed, and basically did 140 MPH in place and ruined it's running gear.
@@Hyce777 found that video, but nothing explaining why water in the dry pipe would cause the running gear to over speed. I get why water in the dry pipe blows the cylinder heads off. Being incompressible means that when a slug of water gets squeezed in the cylinder by the piston, either the engine stops, or the piston or head must break. But why would priming cause a catastrophic runaway?
@@briancox2721 Superheater units flashing lots of liquid water to extremely hot, and extremely expansive steam.
HOW DO YOU KNOW! TELL US!!!!!
I'll answer it in a video later this week.
Is 346 in service or not? And if not, then why?
I believe it's getting it's required overhaul.
@@genevarailfan3909 Ah, that makes sense.
She is out of service getting her 1472 day rebuild. Loooooooots of work needed.
@@Hyce777 I look forward to seeing her run again.
@@sambrown6426 Me too, more so than you'd ever know.
how do you know hyce
he's me, that's how I know him
oh lol I totally forgot what I said in the video. Lol. 491 got stuck open one day. I need to tell that story over video.
@@Hyce777 #imdead
You asked for it how do you know hyce
I'll answer it in a video later this week. :)
I thought the throttles on these things were butterfly valves, not whatever you call this setup.
Nope. I am not actually certain of the name of this style valve either, lol.
@@Hyce777 Interesting.
@@Hyce777 it's a poppet valve.
@@1970bosshemi They're still called poppet valves when this big? For some reason in my head poppets were a series of small valves. Neat.
I would call it a plug valve, or even regulator valve. But that is just me! :)
So it's not a governor?!... and or isn't there a governor somewhere to mitigate runaway?
Don't worry I won't do that, I can't play with LOCOS they wont let me! (I ASKED).
Nope; no governor. Making a steam locomotive's engine run away is not impossible, but certainly takes the right set of wrong circumstances to make happen.
@@Hyce777 So in a worst case scenario... it runs away, can the loco be stopped?/ what would it take to stop the cycle? (cars and trucks you would throw a rag in the turbo or stop air flow..) trains it seems like that's next to impossible.