Kind of weird to think that Hunt is the only game for me where I'm not that excited to raise my mmr rating. Usually just means that I get a higher chance to go against cheaters, or extremely skilled players way above our league.
One thing you missed is that the game creates MMR "baskets" (brackets) based on the current player population. If your team happens to be at the bottom of one of these brackets you're in for a bad night, since most kills will gain you a bunch of MMR and deaths will lose you almost none.
I find your idea of hiding the stars funny. Mostly because the MMR System has always been in place and crytek only made it visible because people had gotten very weird about k/da. You are never going to be able to get rid of the kind of person who either a) thinks they only lose when the odds are stacked against them or b) can't see past a MMR/kda/rank/prestige/etc
I agree I prefer playing solo personally. I find it to be a far more immersive experience and it's nice to be able to play without constantly having to think about what your team is doing. I don't hate a challenge but if you remove the mmr debuff solo play will become closer to impossible than challenging. If I had to choose I would far rather loose the recent solo buffs and keep the mmr debuff than the other way around.
I started playing hunt late august, after my friend recommended it to me, the learning curve was hard, but we ended up getting really into the game. Its now been almost a month playing on and off couple times a week. And we have hit the point where we dont even get fights anymore, we just get destroyed, or we end up inn these really long drawn hide and seek games where we waste a tremendous amount of time, just to get headshot by the guy when you finally do find them. There has been a complete shift in our mmr, where we got lucky and extracted some games, and other games where we got lucky, but suddenly we were both at 5 stars and now we are just constantly getting into games way above what we used to play against.
Yea life of a five star for ya, I’ve been playing for years and I kinda miss the uncertainty going into a match, now I take one look at my mmr and know what to expect more or less, most of the time it’s an ass beating lmao
I take no pride in shitting on 3 to 4 Star players. I even get embarrassed when I thought I was good only to find out Hunt matched me with low level players. So what's with all the 5 stars complaining that they're being matched with other 5 stars?
@@paddypibblet846 the way I see it is the same problem that’s going on in cod. We don’t want to just crap on bad players all the time but we also don’t want to play the game like it’s a world tournament every game. Turn off MMR and have it random. I don’t wanna come home from work and try my best every time I just want to play for fun.
Until the last event (Tide of Shadows), I was very lenient towards those people who liked to complain about matchmaking. At some point during the event, my trio of two 4 stars and one 3 star literally in one or two successful matches turned into two 5 stars and one 4. Note: our average party KDA is 1-1.3. And from that moment on, every game turned into PAIN. Each subsequent round we died within a few seconds after colliding with the players, catching instant headshots from hundreds of meters from regular teams of 5-6 stars. We suffered and hoped that at least our rating would drop quickly and we would return to our usual 3.5-4 stars. But it didn't (or did it extremely slowly). All this led to the fact that from active players we turned into cowardly bush-rats who were simply afraid to get involved in ANY firefights, for fear of meeting another team of 5-6 stars who would send us to the lobby in seconds. Need I say what motivation there is to try to continue playing after this? I think not.
You can't keep winning .. you have to crash and fall and go again .. that's the only way to improve or do you want lock 3* and play it over and over again? MMR is good
If you do trios you have a 1/4 chance of winning the match implying everyone is equally skilled. So you'll still get crapped on for 3 games until you win 1.
Hearing the devs say that they are going to emphasize full lobbies is incredibly worrying for me. When I play with my friends I am often getting matched with 4 and 5 stars as a 3 star and them saying they are widening the ranges just sounds like it's going to make that problem worse, at least with empty lobbies I can occasionally get a win.
This last week I was playing on a team of 1 5* and 2 4* players. 2 of us are on new prestige-es, 1 of us literally had a scottfield and a combat axe. We had a massive full-server fight in the center of the map around the solo boss that we somehow narrowly won. It involved multiple of us going down multiple times, but we clutched it up. The team we fought had full long-ammo load outs, one even had a nitro express and he was GOOD with it. After extraction, we found that it was a full stack of 6* players with 2 of them having 2+ k/d’s and one of them having a 3.31 k/d. I’m still amazed that we won, but that’s kinda the beauty of hunt. When we began that fight my teammate (1.03 k/d who has never been 5* before) suggested we run away. I told him we could stay and play off the other teams and it worked out. That buddy hit 5* for his first time ever after picking up 3 kills during that fight. I guess the moral of the story is that even if fights feel unfair and Crytek doesn’t respond, don’t loose hope. This is Hunt, every fight is winnable. While some days feel like I’m playing a death simulator, getting a win against a team like that feels incredible. Hopefully Crytek balances out mmr sooner rather than later, but until that day comes I welcome the chance to play against players far superior to me and see what I can learn from them.
One important issue which will kill player retention is that mmr doesn't look at total hours played in hunt. I've seen games where players with 100-200 hours are thrown against players with 4000 hours. Both have 4 mmr. First player has just started playing, second player knows everything.
I definitely see you’re point but I honestly think that the steep and brutal reality check of being new to Hunt is what forces players learn quick or die. Lol improvement is so satisfying. I should state I don’t care about mmr at all.
@@xHappyHxCx true to a point, but when a new player constantly gets killed before they have a chance to learn the map and how to move around compounds I could see why it would be demoralizing for a new player
Yeah... Hours played should absolutely weigh in the matchmaking process... And the total number of kills as well, not as in the KD sense, but as in the "fighting experience" the player has gained...
What are they supposed to do about that? Tell people who are still 3 star after 4000 hours just "fuck you, you go into 5 Star now" or how do you imagine fixing this? If they are still 3 Star after 4k hours maybe they just arent that good of a player..
I don't know about this. There are so many people who are terrible at this game, with thousands of hours. Some people just don't get better, can't just toss them to the wolves cause they like the game.
I think hiding stars or kda could help a bit to ease things a bit but it just does not make things better. 6 Stars will still play against 3 Stars it just wont be visible. And in the end people can just look at the profile of their killer if its public to see the hours played in hunt. If you get killed as a 100hours player by a 6000hours player you still might ask yourself why you play in a lobby with them.
Correct! Hiding information from the player, without changing the core system, is the worst possible outcome. The players this change is aimed at will not notice anyways, they are too busy having a blast running only melee weapons in 2 star with sub 100 hours. Removing information is the laziest way of attempting to effect change. How many games have removed scoreboards, player stats, leaderboards, etc. only to add them back in later? I can think of at least 3 off the top of my head right now. Less information is not a good trend to adopt. When you have to start hiding things from your player base in an attempt to correct player behavior, instead of fixing your system - you've failed.
You are missing one massive oversight here: people are hella lazy. I think it would absolutely benefit the game and all the players, because you are not immediately shown how much of a skill difference there was. For me at least, i made it a habit to look at the mmr board and to THEN rage about match making. If this wasn't there i would almost never look at all the people's profiles. But it is just too easy to see. Also Hunt is a hardcore shooter, so getting one-tapped is not something unusual. Anyone can one-tap everyone in theory. It's just when you show the player how "skilled" the other one was that you start to get angry about the match making. I remember back in the day when there was no match making, we used prestige as the metric of choice, rarely KD (KDA did not exist yet). It was less frustrating because you could only roughly estimate how good or bad the players were. Now prestige meant a lot more back in the days, you rarely saw someone above 20, let alone 50... So not really comparable to nowadays. But i still do believe that players that do not know the full truth are happier players.
i don't mind if they hide it, but i think they want to show it because some players think that 6 star is something to work towards, personally i couldn't care less, i think this was one of the rare games where you just login to play and have fun, "was" because they introduced they revamped weekly challenges which introduces the FOMO shit that forces players to play something they don't want to get currencies.
@@rexe30k Correct again! I hate seeing Hunt resort to FOMO events and challenges instead of good game design for holding player retention. And you know what, it's very clear that's all it is because this games life cycle is the most transparent battle pass cycle I've ever seen. During events and quests player numbers skyrocket and once people unlock what they want they dip until the next event. If they focused on addressing a lot of the major ping, connectivity, and server issues you'd have a better baseline for new players to enter into. People don't mind getting their ass beat in Counter Strike, Fortnite, etc. because there is a clear discernable reason for why it happened. In Hunt I still after 5 years have someone trading with me a full second after they die because people with 212ms ping are allowed on whatever server they want to.
+1 for max transparency. I simply cannot understand why private profile is even a thing. Say you and your friend die to a somewhat suspicious guy and would like to see if this guy is actually good and just has an absurd amount of hours in the game like having 30 000 kills with a kda of 2.5 or whether he's most likely a cheater with like 1000 kills and a kda of 12. Welp, can't do that cause he's just toggled on private profile
For the longest time I was obsessed with getting to 6 stars and increasing my KDA. When I started playing dark and darker which has neither a visible kda or elo, I feel like I can finally enjoy a game so much more. Honestly, most of us who play hunt want to be good at it because its so unforgiving. We don't need another reminder or how good/bad we are. Just remove the visible stars because I don't think crytek or the player base would ever want to remove visible KDA
I agree with this. but I can also see the retorts being something like "They're just trying to hide how bad matchmaking is", or something to that effect
6:09 Hunt Showdown is not intended to be a competitive FPS game. However, In the Steam Store page of Hunt it says: "Competitive, match-based gameplay combines PvP and PvE elements to create a uniquely tense PvEvP experience where your character and your gear are always on the line."
That's just a keyword description of the game, any game where players compete against each other for a common goal can be considered 'competitive'. Hunt is competitive in a sense that you essentially only have one life and have to work your way back up if you die, but it isn't considered 'competitive' in terms of what the average competitive videogame is. Actual competitive-category videogames like R6, CSGO, Apex, etc. all have league play and other aspects to the matchmaking/game that make it more of a competition.
I've been saying it over and over, the elo system in Hunt is a half-baked and rushed feature. Reverting the matchmaking changes back to "fair over full" lobbies and removing elo from Soul Survivor entirely are two top priorities IMO. Giving way to the top 5% of the playerbase just so they don't get empty lobbies or run into the same two trios every match for the whole evening is a bad move, just like having a fast, convenient and cost-less feature to derank is. Next, rework the gain/loss of MMR for solos - no more losing an entire star rating after one match because nothing is preventing you from clicking a button 5 times to die to a lower-ranked player. No more "KD goes up MMR goes down" situations requiring you to wipe half the server just to not be put against even lower-ranked players than the match before. Next, like you said, long-term MMR. Right now you can grab meme loadouts, have fun for a couple hours and end up fighting new players, then grab long ammo and end up right back. Ridiculous. Next (this is a bit of wishful thinking on my part) incorporate playtime/KD/other stats into matchmaking. You might disagree, but a 4star with 100 hours against a 4star with 2k hours will just lose most of the time, simple as. Experienced players with poor PvP performance don't want to fight new players who spend 20 minutes just to get to the boss only to sit in a random corner for another 20 minutes the moment it turns red until those experienced players push them or leave. I have almost 2k hours and hover around 3-4 stars because I play a lot of solo and my aim is garbage, but the moment I queue randoms, who do I get? Teammates with
The MMR system being broken makes it very difficult to build a player base and further keep a player base. Newer and casual players will find themselves quickly not having fun and as a consequence, stop playing. I think one of the biggest help to fixing MMR are between 3 points you hit on, removing its attachment to quick-play, having it be a rolling observation of KDR over the course of a 30-40 day period that KDR measures your star ranking, and this one has to be tied in with making it much harder for the MMR to go up and down which covers the solo necro problem too. I would much rather wait for a Match another few minutes to get a more fair lobby. Great video, good insight to the single biggest issue with this game (if it is going to last another 5 years)!
Agreed. There is a huge disparity between player's skill on console. PC players will likely never understand. The most disadvantaged are PS4, then PS5, then XBox. It's pretty incredible what a difference a few frames per second make. That being said, this is where console players will find that once they reach a certain time of day (later at night) that they will be consistently facing the exact same highest level team on their particular platform. If the people you're playing with don't recognize them (usually on bounty pick up) and play a very specific way, they will go down in short order and you now are 1 v 3. This was orders of magnitude worse back when explosive ammo was introduced. I'd rather the game give these guys dead lobbies than put them in lobbies with far weaker players... because the result is the same... it creates dead lobbies eventually.
I agree with all your points, but especially your last one. I've met a number of people who are overly obsessed with what their MMR is. They focus too much on gaining MMR and don't like to push or help the team in risky situations because they are afraid of losing MMR.
Absolutely this... The incredible obsession that many players inexplicably have with those meaningless little numbers warps so much the way this game is played... This is especially absurd in a totally asymmetrical game like Hunt, where the tactical situation and the loadout difference often trump the sheer skill (that can be measured by KD or MMR) of the players (I'm not refferring to the tactical ability and such of course)
ya. i only play with friends I know but watching people who have pugged and just seeing your 3rd member just immediatly leave as soon as you go down is just bonkers to me. my squad its we all leave or none of us leave. ((with obviously zero bounty redskulls as an acception))
Removing the leaderboards was a good step and I feel removing stars from the menu would definitely be a nice continuation of that too. It feels like having that score always visible causes more issues than it fixes, even just subliminally.
Absolutely... Camping, sniping, griefing, cheating, exploiting, re-shading, nvidia inspecting, not ressing, not risking and many other -ings, all stem from the silly obsession with those little numbers...
Agree 100%. I said it was stupid when they introduced it, and I still stand by that all these years later. Make it viewable to that player only. What possible benefit is there to making it viewable by others? I struggle to think of any. I can think of many reasons why it's a bad idea though...
Solo here also, i generally find mmr ok, im only a 3 star but i guess thats my level and thats that. However just now i have been stomped by a 2 star duo with following stats 1. KDA 2.2, 2778 boss kills, 3067 duo kills, 218 max hunters. 2. KDA 1.2, 3416 boss kills, 2507 duo kills, 212 max hunters. These guys are clearly gaming the system especially the first guy.
My main issue is that it feels like bringing along lower MMR players does almost nothing at all to our group MMR. I'm a high five player and trying to queue with my three star friends that are sub-100 hours and new to the game does almost nothing at all, since it averages up to four stars and lets us match with full stacks of five stars anyways; and since the five star bracket is so wide, the skill level of people in it is all over the place, making the entire MMR system feel completely arbitrary at that point.
You are correct and have a more nuanced understanding of the MMR system than Homereel does, even if it's by accident. The way it weighs players is very odd and it tends to be top heavy once your average MMR has crossed into 4*. Ever since the change I'm seeing really clear repeatable distributions. Instead of attempting to average people around an anchor point I'm seeing this exact distribution game to game; 4* 4.5* 5* 5.5*. Why does is this happening? Why is it creating a sliding scale from the low range to the high range? Shouldn't it be matching 2-4 of one group, with 1-2 outliers. The difference between 4* average mmr & 5.5* is gigantic. You might as well put a 1* team in there for fun at that point.
@@roscosimmons-shorts8050 It's because the carry effect is stronger than the anchor effect. Other games have published data on this in their versions of MMR or ELO.
@Fongletto it's not though. You need to factor in the anchor&&no mmr balance change. In essence you're "carrying" at a man disadvantage against your level enemies.
@@roscosimmons-shorts8050 I often felt that a 1 star or similarly low player in a team will bring down the average of a team up to a point where the game decided that me and my friend playing duos vs trios at 4 and 5 stars would often face constellations of 2 5 stars and 1 1 star
With my measly 100hrs and having never left 3 stars lobbies I have never encountered any of the issues that the community is discussing but I think the transparency part is a big one. I know that game designers cannot reveal all of the reasons and inner workings of their systems (for obvious exploitation reasons) but a little would go a long way. But yeah, it's a fine line to ride because the small vocal community isn't always right or knows what's best for the longterm health of the game.
So far the only people I've personally seen complaining about MMR are vets with 600+ hours in the game, which while very anecdotal make the claim that MMR is driving new players away feel very meaningless.
@@Xear00maybe, but just the other night I saw a 1/5 star team vs a 6/6 star team and it makes me wonder if that one star will continue to play. I personally know three people that stopped playing because of this kinda stuff (I understand this is still anecdotal, but seeing it first hand makes me wonder how many others have a similar experience)
@@salsinger9985 Cant be more true. I have a friend that is 4 stars and im 3 (eventually i go to 4 and him down to 3). Lobbies are THE CHAOS late night... A lot of 2 and 5 stars on the same lobbie. Eventually you got some shots that you only think: (are you serious?) ---------- usually a 5 star. And some guys that make you think ''wtf this guy is doing?'' ----------- (usually a 2 star) Not to mention... Im being a 3 to 4 star... The difference of 3 to 4 star (as solo is like night and day)... Not to mention... If im hit 4 star sometimes... Im a ''high'' 3 and ''low'' 4... The difference is greater than i expect.
There's no need to take away stars or KDA, the people who want to focus on those things can. The issue is they are promoted as the only way to win. One of the main goals of hunt showdown is to collect bounties. But yet there is literally no way of founding out how good a player is at doing that. The absolute best way to handle this problem is to simply dilute the value of stars and KDA by adding multiple different ways of 'winning'. After all, it's not a competitive game and it never can be because there is no 1 true goal that defines whether or not you 'won'. Give me a bounty extract rating that shows me how good I am at successfully collecting the bounty. Add a sniper rating that shows how good you compared to other players at fighting long range engagements over 100 meters. Add a shotgun rating that shows how good you compared to other players at close ranges. Add a Bomber rating that scores you at how good you are killing people with consumables.
Hi, OCE player here with 700 hours of play time. I bounce between 3 and 5 star all the time but get matched with 6 star players constantly. Me and my friends have notcied it always happens when we are in a squad together. When we play solo or even just with randoms it doesn't happen and we feel like were having a much better time in much more even fights. It's honestly gotten to the point where it feels like a penelty to want to play with your friends so we have just moved to playing other games where you dont feel punished for wanting to talk and have fun with your friends. I think out of everything, thats whats pushed me and my friends to stop playing hunt. In my opinion i miss what old games did, have a casual game mode with no mmr and if you got a bad game filled with insane players, better luck next time, theres a good chance they wont be in your game again. But if you really want even matches and to push yourself, play the ranked mode with mmr. It feels way better when you just get thrown into a random game with someone better then you and loose then having the game try and calculate who you should match with for ages and continuosly get it wrong and you get smashed over and over.
My problem with MMR started the moment I hit 5star - and fell down to 4ish - I started playing with people way more skillful than I. After hitting that 5star merely by accident, I lost 0.3 KDA (from 1.5 to 1.2) and I doubt that I suddenly started playing so much worse. I feel it, the people around me are playing better, even for a 3star lobby.
@@tunelowplayslow8101 The point is I dropped down to 3-4 and people around me are still as skilled as in 5+ most of the time. Seems like they also dropped from 5 to 3, just like I did, but on the contrary to myself, they so belong to 5, while I belong to 3.and I want to play with those 3s
@@SelikBready As a person who played since the game went live, the old system was far better for constant player-base.The current system punishes the core game-play and that's emphasized in the top bracket. I personally am stuck in a 5-6 star bracket and want out because I can kill them cause the players ARNT skilled in 5-6 star bracket mostly, they just meta game farm stars instead. I average 13 kill games as a solo only to die to a bunch of shit lords who just spam traps, necro, or camp to death everything. Cause my kill count is so high and my death count is blisteringly low since the MMR bracket came out I cant leave 5 stars -.- As a person who got this system thrown on him, I haven't extracted from a single run in close to 2 years (due to this I have put in less and less time, so before 2019 I put in 500 hours, 2019 put us 1.0 and I put in less then 100 hours, the gimmicks of holloween and Christmas got me to come back total of 30 hours in 2020, 2021 - 2022 I put in less then 40 hours total and about 100 people I knew from the hunt community quit entirely. This year I have 6 games 4 durring event, 2 after event, I had more fun after the event but even then it wasnt really as fun as it was before camping bullshit and leaderboards were added and it was made worse by current MMR changes). If I wanted to play a bootleg CoD game I can fire up a fuck ton of those for 5 dollars on steam, seems the devs think they got a great system though as they kept it for so long...
@@SelikBreadyTwo problems with your statement. 1. You don't "accidentally" climb up. You have to literally kill players to climb up, that's not an accident. 2. You're implying there's some hidden MMR stat for players who deranked, but there isn't. You're going up against actual lower star MMR players atm. Seems that you're just bothered you're not winning every game. But let's say you go trios for example, there's four teams of three. Your chances of winning the game are 1/4, so you should still expect to lose much more than you win. I've noticed that if people don't win most games they feel like they're being unfairly matched up but that's just not true.
@@paddypibblet846 1. Climbing by accident can be quite easy tho. I killed a 6star a couple of times with shotgun and that moved me to 5str. Since that never happened ever since, I call it an accident. 2. How can you be sure there is no such thing? What if game tracks all-time high MMR of a player and match them according to it together with current MMR? I.e. if I never had 4 stars, I'll play with other people who never were higher than 3, but if I had 5 str, than I could also play with ppl who had 5star before. And it's not about winning, it's about kda. Having consistent kda for a year, and then losing 30% of it in a week or two? I literally died about hundred times while I killed like 10 ppl. Not even talking that ppl started to land shots that I never saw before.. maybe everyone just became better overnight, while I didn't
If you hide the stars you make the mmr system into the realm of superstition. People are still going to obsess about their rank and fear it, they'll just have to resort to external tools or speculation to find the truth
The presence of SBMM is pretty obvious, even when it's hidden. When you go from being matched against bots one match to sweat-lords the next, it's not hard to figure out what's going on. I'd rather know the game thinks I suck rather than stress out about background processes that are manipulative. The best theoretical solution I can think of is to put the people below a 1.0 K/D in a protected bracket and let everyone else get matched by ping. Either that or give higher stars some kind of reward to discourage reverse-boosting (and why shouldn't you be rewarded for having to artificially go against stronger players in the first place?).
I agree. Not that I particularly like all the stats but the genie is kind of out of the box already. Matchmaking was already a widely discussed issue before MMR got visible and perhaps more so. You can't stop people from trying to make sense of what is happening and uninformed that will inevitably lead to all sorts of sour theories.
I'm 4 stars and my teammate I usually play with is 3 but for some reason we keep getting paired with teams of 4 and 5 stars. The people I go against also tend to have 2.5 times the hours I have and it seems like we can never take out any teams. We always kill a few of them and then get killed but it seems rare that we take out a team. And it keeps fluctuating to where we are pitted against higher players and then when we take a break from the game we get put against lower or equal skill players before getting constantly wrecked the next day. I wonder if maybe the fact that we take out several enemies but usually don't win teamfights makes the game think we are doing better than we actually are? Since all it counts is kills and deaths and not actual success. I haven't played the game since last event so I might not remember well enough but I remember that's a part of why I don't play the game much. I definitely remember it being a problem for a really long time now
So true, same thing here, being put in a lobby where literally everyone is 1-2 stars higher game after game and day after day is incredibly frustrating.
I can tell you what happens here, i reverse engineered the mmr system for the app called 'HuntStatsLogger'. Whenever you fight against someone with higher stars than you, you gain A LOT more mmr by killing them and loose basically nothing when dying to them. So when you manage to kill just one and then die, your mmr still shoots up. But the real problem here is how do you define 'actual success'? You clearly define it by killing a team, maybe even leaving the server with a bounty. But i know a lot of people and personally am one of those who measure success based on just pure kills a round. I don't care that i died - if i took out 6 hunters before the death. I always measure success by my KDA which i know is taking the fun out of the game but i can't help it. Whenever i can leave a server with a bounty, but died more than i made kills i am pissed. I do not count that round as success then.
@@rein_engel Yeah, as someone who's a 3 star gamer with a 0.56 KD who plays with friends who are 4 or 5 stars it is very frustrating and half the time feels like I'm pretty much dead weight
When I played in the Hunt discord I would constantly run into groups of people who I would join that would openly talk about using quick play to MMR down rank. I would say out of 5-6 teams per session I would join, there would be at least 1-2 where the group was either people openly looking for MMR down rankers or lobbies where it was on 5*+ guy only looking for 2.3* players. I typically don't look at the stars on a player... Even my potato ass has touched 6*.
Yeah i just don’t care about my MMR. and I think showing it to people just encourages this type of behavior you are talking about. Not to mention smurf accounts and all manner of cheating.
@@RexVergstrong because as he stated,"how common is that? no idea" followed by a joke of no one plays it. he made a joke about it but he dosnt know how common it is as he stated. which isnt downplaying. he put it as one of the major issues people have.
I didn't know about MMR bracket changes for a long time, but somewhere around April I started to have much and much worse experience in this game: chain losses, instant deaths without any chance to fight back, getting my face blown by random wallbang 10 times more often and so on. My k/d dropped, my MMR dropped from stable 5 to 3 and 4. Shortly, it felt like suddenly I've lost most of my skill in this game. While getting stomped all over in every match I started to notice much more 6 star 2+ k/d players queued against me, while before, even on 5 stars, seeing a 6 star was a rare occasion. And then I read about the MMR changes happened right at the beginning of Spring and it all just became clear: it's not me who started to play worse, it's fkn Crytek decided they should feed me to the 6 star bayou sweats. Last 6 months have been horrible and playing against 3 stacks of 3+ k/d 6 stars is a usual 4 star player's evening. Even if I consider to derank it still won't change unless I derank to 2 stars and waste more time deranking than actually playing. The only thing they need to do is to revert the damn thing and never touch it again.
I don't think mmr is the issue, I think it's how mmr affects gameplay. Speaking as someone who often fluctuates between 4 (sometimes 3) and 5(sometimes 6) star, I found that I have more fun when I'm at 3-4 start the 5-6. At 5-6 star people are more prone to camp bushes, camp corners with shotguns and overall just being rats as opposed to wanting to have an actual gunfight
Its funny to me because that's how people in the 1-low3 star play. They rat in bushes and hide with shotguns and snipers. I do think MMR is an issue, when I play with my friends I'm on average a 4 star sometimes on a good day I'll gain a 5th star. The past week I have been playing by myself in duos, and I've been getting stomped, to the point I'm now in 2-3 1/2 mmr, and I'm still getting stomped. The problem I think is from the combination of "new" players not by default being in the 3-4 but being lower 1-3 stars, when some players are certainly just using a new account and have definately played before, and the second is how Soul Survivor actually affects bounty hunt mmr, and people go into it to derank.
@@manatauro1436 I've been playing in 2-low three star lobbies the past like 3 days, and its the same. No one even banishes the boss they crouch walk and bush camp the whole game. I think what I've seen from this all is its all just super inconsistent, everybody seems to have a different experience with it, but what gets me is people calling everyone out for "not being in my region/mmr" instead of realizing that what this shows is hunt is super inconsistent and broken
@@manatauro1436 and also, just because I'm saying low mmr plays like that doesnt mean high mmr cant. I mean, thats my point is that both extreme ends of the mmr range seem to play the same - super rat bush camp snipers and shotguns
Just wanted to say that on your number 3 point is that the game doesn't care about stars when matching. It uses the raw MMR value. So, you can increase the brackets all you want, but a large gap in between (despite the star number not changing) would still lead to skill mismatches and confusion. The reason being is because you would essentially be turning, hypothetically for example, 4 stars into 6 stars as it is now, and both of those skill types would be under the same star. That would mean the game, and people seeing it, would expect the skill level to be similar when it actually wouldn't be at all - not even close. We don't want a situation where one star could be so drastic in skill levels as that wouldn't be an accurate representation. The ideal approach is to reduce volatility and favor consistency. Players should only move ranks/stars when they are consistent in their gameplay skill. No MMR system should ever have anyone move up multiple stars in a game, or just a few games. It should take many, consistent kills and deaths to move up or down. To follow this ideal, most modern MMR systems, like Glicko2, use an uncertainty value when computing MMR. That uncertainty value is similar to the average you mentioned, but it is different. The idea is that a player will start at a very high uncertainty value which allows for larger MMR gains and losses. However, over time, the uncertainty value shrinks as the player plays more games, and thus will create a much slower MMR progression (up or down) that is based on consistency of the player. You can read a little about it here: math.bu.edu/people/mg/glicko/glicko2.html.old With that said, this is how most online games reduce the volatility of MMR/ranks on players, and Hunt should be using something similar. It was a mistake that Hunt used such an archaic system (straight ELO) when it doesn't even work well for competitive games. Hunt's MMR system would be drastically better with this one simple change to the whole.
A small issue that i've noticed is actually something that i don't see mentioned a lot. I float at 6*/high5* depending on the day, and i almost exclusively duo queue into trios with a friend who is 5*. What we are consistently running into, even at peak hours, are full 3 stacks of 6* players, despite the game allegedly providing a malus against our ELO. It's incredibly disheartening to see, and frustrating to deal with, because in a game like hunt every individual body matters and simply adding another player of equal or higher skill to a team you're fighting turns the odds in their favor an extreme amount. Anecdotally it's very disheartening to fight teams where you're punching up on the entire enemy team AND they have a numbers advantage on you, and makes it seem like the system doesn't function at all. Personally, it's very tiring to fight the same teams and names over and over in full stacks who make some very.... """high skill""" plays while making youtube videos lamenting about the fact that reshade was taken from them and how much of an outrage it is. I would rather have the olden days of hunt where there was no ELO whatsoever and every game was a wildcard, because then you'd never know what to expect and every game had the capability of being wacky and fun instead of you having to sweat your nuts off at every opportunity.
Same thing here just in trio. I am a high 5 star, my friend is a mid 5 star and the last one is a 3 star that can barely Hit anything. We are constantly in 4,5 star lobbies with Teams that are a full Stack of 5 Stars or even some 6 Stars. How is that fair?
sounds like you are complaining because you play duos vs trios and its harder? isn't that the point? that's why you get more bounty etc? new player here so im not sure i understand your comment
There is a VERY simple way to curb the volatility of MMR, which I think is the main problem. Just put a numerical cap on how much you can gain or lose from a single match. This would negate jumping two stars up because you got lucky on a frag throw. This would diminish the impact of taking 5 health chunks and solo necroing to derank. My hot take on the side: encourage ranking up. Give bb payouts to 4, 5, and 6 star players at the end of each month incrementally to their rank. It'll keep them out of low lobbies.
I would rather semi full lobbies with more equal based skilled players rather than full and a wider range. I've basically been in the 3 star range at all times, never really moving after I found out each death after necro affected my MMR. I'm really not that great at the game but since I discovered it I've been really enjoying it. Each match feels so intense but can feel real bad when you see that you were killed by a prestige 15 level 100 player as someone who is just starting out.
A better idea could be making mmr half based on objective rather than only kills, this would mean players that are going on a winstreak will face other people that are more capable of putting up a fight, meanwhile people who keep losing will find themselves against lower star players until recovering their footing. (to prevent people from staying low on purpose, kills and wipes will still count towards mmr just not as much as before but noticeable) This would make deranking extremely difficult as you would need to "lose" (return to menu from death) rather than spam necro in people's faces to tank mmr about 5 times and because this would be more objectives rather than only kills. You could also kill people with higher stars and not be immediately thrown onto a higher level, instead escape with a bounty first to level up in mmr, it's extremely annoying to somehow kill a higher star player and be punished for it (cause it feels more like a punishment than balancing) by getting sent to high star hell. (this happened to me twice last week btw from 3 star all the way to 5 star and i am not even that good)
I have 1300h. I was everything from 2Star-6Star. In my opinion MMR isn't saying anything about Skill at all. I have MMR hidden because MMR is only affected by Kills. The only different Experience I felt during my 1000+ Hours is, that in MMR 5-6 mostly people who dont prestige anymore and sit on an amount of Hunt Dollars, where Weapon Prices dont matter play "Better == More Expensive" Weapons and Ammo types. So sure they have an advantage Loadoutwise + Camping is rewarded with high powered Weapons.
People arent good at judging their performance and it shifts a lot. Kind of like my MMR wich I am happy about. Playing after a long days work would be awful if I was in MMR as when I'm at my best. Also a good motivation was given when the mmr got visible - transparency. It's a lesser evil to make sense of why you butchered the server or got steamrolled.
I'm at 815 hours play time now, I started back in Devils Moon. I usually play with a mate who swings between 4-6 stars, but is 90% of the time at 5 stars, I swing between 3-5 stars, spending maybe 50% of the time on 4 stars and the rest on 5 stars and a tiny minority of the time on 3 (when hunt taketh) What I have noticed more than anything, is that the closer I get to 6 stars, the more the play styles of others changes, the lobbies at or around 6 stars are VERY sweaty, the weapons that people use narrow down to a few, and everybody stops taking risks. Stalemates takes till the end of the lobby timer and a lot more players use the Headsman skin. The game quite literally turn to shit, every time now I have gotten very close to 6 stars I have lost some love for Hunt Showdown. The game is still great, but the potential bad play styles that people usually choose not to partake in, is everywhere at the highest level
It's as simple as reintroducing the unranked mode but this time make it so you can't get random teammates from the ranked mode. An unranked contract shouldn't show stars or KDA and MMR shouldn't change as fast as it does.
I'd like to move them another menu. I like being able to check elo, so I know why a match felt really easy or really hard. It helps me keep tabs on how I'm playing and how much I'm improving, or if I'm getting worse. But I don't want a constant reminder of how I'm performing, because for some reason, even though I don't want to care, whenever I drop from 4 or 5 to 3 stars, I get really demoralized if I'm playing consistently, likely because I know I'm a high 4 low 5 star ranked player when I'm playing consistently. That said, I actually like the mmr system in Hunt because it's volatile. It's really reassuring and encouraging to me knowing that, if I take a couple months off and last played at a 5 star elo, when I come back, it wont take long to find matches that match my elo level. In other words, it being really easy to lose mmr when I play poorly means that I don't spend a bunch of time playing out of my depth when I take a break and then return. When I take a break for a few months, I'm undoubtedly a 3 star in skill level when I come back. I'm rusty in all aspects (game knowledge, gun handling, raw mechanics, etc) and it takes me 5-10 hours to get back into the swing of things. The fact that I can naturally and easily drop ranks to my skill level while still trying to play seriously really helps me enjoy getting back into the game, unlike in games like Siege, where I can never get back into it because the hidden MMR has me at high gold/low plat for both ranked and quickplay, and I'm a mid silver at best now. I get destroyed in every match in that game, and I'll have to get steamrolled for about 30 hours straight to de-rank enough to have a balanced match. I'd much rather get steamrolled for 1-2 hours at most and then have fun in balanced matches, which Hunt's mmr system enables. That said, I see how this is easily exploitable unfortunately, but I feel the pros outweigh the cons. And for clarities sake, I view a balanced match as every team has a 1 in (server team count) chance of winning. And with how reactive to player performance Hunt's mmr is, at least to me, it feels pretty good. I still don't want to see it on the front page though. 'Cause then I start caring too much about. I want it to get hidden in another menu, like where the KD is at so I can forget it exists most times. That neutralizes a lot of the hyper competitiveness problems I have.
You have to consider the KDA for the Matchmaking, i really dont care about the stars, they just show if you are having a good or a bad day and can vary this much. BUT getting killed by a team with each hunter having a 2.5+ KDA is freaking unfair playing with a team avarage KDA of 1.5 .... Those players should only encounter similar KDAs. I would wait 2 minutes to find a game, but the server shouldn't be filled up with those high skillers...
i think fundamentally there is a tension between different player expectations when i play my goals are to actively learn and improve. if i die i assume personal fault first and dissect my decision-making that lead to my death and try to identify areas where different decisions will lead to better outcomes but it seems like a lot of people take a more care-free approach and expect the game to deliver on that. theyre not completely opposed to improvement but it isnt their primary motivator, gallavanting around the map and having fair fights is. they dont like dying to someone they didnt know was there or who just completely outclass them in aim or positioning. they want messy fights with lots of exciting stray shots and a decisive climactic ending it seems to me that hiding stars wont fix that fundamental issue of expectation, to have exciting fights with rising tension and satisfying payoffs. i think a different mode might be in order with higher time-to-kills could be a solution. one shot kills are core to the game but it honestly seems to piss a lot of people off when they die so suddenly. it shatters the immersion of being a rough n tumble bounty hunter. you die like a punk, lost everything, and get ejected fromm the game. seems people struggle with that
Higher TTK will completely ruin the balance. With mostly single shot guns you will not be able to counter a simple 2 man rush which would become a main tactic choice for everyone and destroy the tactical depth. The issue you described is not the game issue, its a player expectation issue. If I play Hunt Showdown but expect it to be something different like Apex Legends (for example) its not the game's job to adapt, its player's job. Because every player expectations are different. The game should provide solid and balanced as much as possible gameplay which Hunt does a lot better than most of pvp games. Some players just see the mmr system for what it isnt (ranked system) and try to exploit it for the sake of getting higher ranks. Thats the main problem that needs to be solved.
The issue for me is that SBMM is a bad compromise that only makes a handful of people happy. It's meant to keep the sweats away from the casuals but it screws everyone in the middle, because you're either clubbing seals all day or getting your head kicked in by people you had no chance of beating. 6 star players make up like 2-3% of the entire player population. It wouldn't bother me if 3/100 games I saw a 6 star player. Hell even 1/10. The problem is that instead of every once in a while getting stomped by better players, while most of the time having relatively balanced matches, the game has decided that I should be locked in the same room with the 6 stars for the benefit of the casuals.
I have had a pretty consistent kd of 1.3 and MMR of 4-5 stars for the past two years. In the last month I have been playing against lobbies of full six stars and kd’s of 3+. I’m not super competitive but lobbies have felt stacked against me and my friend since the event ended
Yes, I think it'd be helpful, if Stars AND KDA would be made invisible. But in the end, the only satisfying move for the majority of players would be to rework the Balance between full lobbies and skill-matching opponents. I'd rather play against less teams with less stars, than having my 4-star-lobby filled up with top-tier-solos.
Never before was vocal about it, but in my 400 hrs experience it was something like that: Playing at 5* is a mixed bag of somewhat balanced lobbies and just 6*/5* teams massacring the competition. When i and my teammates drop to 4* it feels like a breath of fresh air with much more players having diverse loadouts and interesting situations coming out of it. Playing solo is a good way to play at 5* because you just don't get matched with 6* that played 10 or more times than you and only run high-end expensive guns because they don't have or don't feel the need to prestige their account.
Hiding the ranking is not a good idea in my opinion. For example if I've got a loss streak I really want to know if I've just having a bad day or if perhaps I ranked up before and now just have stronger opponents. And with a win streak it's the same just in the other direction.
The major problem with Hunt is that it's too easy to go up and down tiers. Name any other game where you can go from a silver lobby to a diamond lobby in a single game. They need to just add several 0's onto the end of the formula so going up and down ranks takes weeks of work and self-improvement (or self-stagnation) to see any changes at all. Plus, you know, don't have ranked as the only possible queue you can join which also basically does not happen in any other game.
The problem is the bracket system + ELO. You get to the bottom of the next rung and it's just getting kicked in the face over and over again, because almost everyone you fight has a higher ELO than you so you just get stuck there. Every kill is worth more ELO up than each death is ELO down.
If thry remove the stars, these problems in the matchmaker would be harder to notice and get people to take seriously. That’s what transparency does for you. Otherwise problems will just lurk in the background unfixed.
Pffff, I hoped for the wedding announcement at the end of the video! Way to keep the other shoe from dropping, mate. (good thoughts, thank you for sharing, and I struggle to understand why people see stars as something to “grind" or “climb", instead of seeking fair games where all parties will have more enjoyment in the process… which is very difficult to achieve in an equipment-based shooter with high skill ceiling)
What imho CT needs to do is give Teams MMR. And like not just calculate the average MMR of the team but rather recognize if people group together more than 10 times and treat that team as a "person" with its own MMR. I almost exclusively play the game with my gf and we have a quite noticeable gap in skill. (Me starting to play videogames around CS 1.6 and that being my main hobby since vs her starting around 1 B.C. (= before covid)). If i play 50 rounds of Hunt a week it'll be 40 with her, the rest will be with one of three guys we play with regularly and maybe I'll sneak in one or two solo rounds a month. We both are at a 3* MMR, while her KD is hovering around .6 while mine is at 1.25 resulting in her having less and less fun bc she gets shat on like crazy while we're matched mostly vs 2.5 to 3.5* teams.
My trouble with MMR as a solid 5 star with 1600hrs is that I can only play reliably fair/fun rounds with 1 of my 7 friends who have Hunt. The rest are all 2-4 stars, and if I play with them they get screwed and have a bad time. I have bought Hunt for 3 other people in the past year and they have all bounced off after getting helplessly murdered. To be honest I am prepared to derank on purpose and then stick to Springfield compact and railroad hammer and just throw the fight instead of carry against 3-star lobbies just so that I can play with my friends and they can have a good time.
I also think they should remove the account KD from the quick view when you click on the player and have it as a per hunter KD. I think it would be more interesting
The player count in Hunt is lower than it ever has been in a long time. This is not due to the event, prior events have not had such a drastic drop as this prior event. The MMR system is the primary system to blame. I can't get any of my friends to play because they are tired of going up against the equivalent of Michael Jordan on the court of Hunt Showdown.
MMR, KDA, etc... the underlying problem is the perception that there are numerous cheaters on Hunt and Crytek seemingly does nothing about it. People fixate on these stats because there's nothing else to point to.
The best temporary solution is to revert the changes done to MMR brackets, until playerbase growth starts again, and that is if it ever does. Come on, we all know that the players complaining about empty or partially populated lobbies are about a ~3% of the high elo playerbase that plays outside peak hours. That vocal minority is close enough to the dev team that they could make their voice heard. I know, I know, it's hard for them; but that's what playing a game with a small playerbase for a living (or playing the game as you play it for a living) gets you. I have a 21 years semi-pro beachvolley career behind me, and I wasn't allowed to go and train at the same hours that casual players were playing. It wasn't fun for them or me and someone could even get hurt. I don't think hiding the MMR would do much besides further alienate the already alienated players. The thing with Hunt is how quickly and efficiently a veteran player can wipe a team; Hunt is a very high skill ceiling game, and hardcore, high skill dedicated players have a great advantage in game knowledge over new or casual ones. You can never mix 6 stars and 4 stars in the same lobby and call a 2 star difference something unimportant; most 6 stars are leagues apart from 4 stars, and in a fair SBMM system they would be 8 or 10 stars. But yeah, something has to be done, and quickly; Hunt's playerbase dropped by 60% in two months. And don't come at me with event burnout and new games releasing: those happen all the time and yet this is the sharpest decline ever. The MMR change is in the same timeline as playerbase decline, it means it grinded the casual players and made the game unappealing to new ones. It also made SA and OCE servers nearly unplayable, as in those regions the MMR brackets were loose enough already, now they're non-existant. In those regions as soon as you get to 3 stars Match MMR everything goes, even a premade trio of 6 stars with 5,5 Match MMR. In NAE that happens when you get to 3,5 Match MMR, which is better, but far from ideal. P.S.: Before anyone flames me, I'm a mid 5 star hovering around 2850 MMR, so I've been around high elo lobbies for quite sometime. But I saw two real life friends and three persons I know from Discord that were in the high 3 and low 4 stars bracket leave the game for good, and it was the MMR changes that disgruntled them.
Its not only about the MMR system, but rather about the matchmaking system. The solution to what I see is: 1) Match the players based not only on their MMR, but on their total bounty. This is the most effective way to avoid solo with 1500 hours in the game being pushed into the full newbie lobbie with their first-second games ever. Because after 1500 of hours in the game like Hunt, you accuire certain game-based skills that may help you survive and win even if you are bad at shooting; 2) Include the headshot ratio to KD into the MMR calculator. Because the higher your MMR, the higher the chance that you will have a short fight with first-shot headshots instead of long fights with tagging, healing, repositioning, etc. 3) Re-work solo necromancer. In its current state, it allows getting up 5 times to be killed by a 3-star player, which reduces your MMR significantly, thus allowing the MMR abuse, so to say. Solo revive should be, as you said, *a second chance*. Not a third, fourth and fifth chance. Let Solos revive themselves once and/or within a limited timeframe (you can get up in 60 seconds, then your hunter dies). It will increase the value of your life and of your descisions, and will reduce the MMR-abuse possibility. 4) Completely split Ranked MMR matchmaking, and full random with no skill-based matchmaking. I believe, these changes are not the most difficult in terms of implementation, though I believe these will be effective.
SBMM is trash in general, but lately I've been noticing lots of 3/4 star players with huge stats. Never used to see people with 1.6-2.0 k/d until you hit 5 star, so that tells me that there are probably a lot of people deranking on purpose to get easy games.
I think that a good way to introduce mmr would have been with a pseudo ranked mode were your mmr would change and you would be paired with people that have the same mmr than you and a different matchmaking were you would go against anyone who choosed to play like this, your mmr would not change and it was your choice to get against every mmr
90% solo here with around 1.6k hours - agree there is an issue with solo vs trios. I dislike KDA and stars and try to ignore them but it’s a challenge. This can effect my play style in that I feel encouraged to take less risks in close range and feel rewarded for sniping. I would welcome the removal of visible stars and KDA to reiterate the focus on playing hunt for hunt without distraction.
A few ideas I’ve had for a long time: * Remove star visibility in main menu to reduce obsession and toxicity. * Widen the point gap between 3 and 5 star so it’s not so easy to swing between them quickly. * Make kills and deaths equal in MMR point gain as contrasted with 4 kills equaling 1 death rn. * Stricter matchmaking pairings so 3 star teams are never in the same lobbies as 5-6 star teams, including having partial lobbies. * Only allow players to move up in stars, to prevent downrank abuse. * Extract with bounty influence MMR. * K/D heavily influence MMR gain/loss (ie 3.0 KD is 3x multiplier for gaining MMR so high skill players meet their true rank faster). * IP/MAC address track player accounts to prevent/ban smurfing. * Offset disparity between star differences in invite teams by placing stacking loadout cost limits on the higher star player (IE a 6 star player in a 3 star invite team is only allowed dual combat axes and flashbangs) , allowing them to show off their skill in a wider variety of ways other than just seal clubbing with Mosin Snipers. * Quickplay MMR being separated from Bounty Hunt MMR.
I was thinking about this last night ...needs a change to sweaty with this mmr I want a gamemode where mmr don't matter so its more fun...like a team deathmatch 😊
People begged years to see their ELO score.. so crytek added the star system. If they remove it again, people will start to cry and complain.. Honestly.. the game doesnt have ranked mode, the game will never be competitive.. Remove stars, remove KDA, rework prestige system.. lets have fun playing the game..
I dont remember where he said it, but mr. fifield said that the MMR is intended to on average create fair games; the issue is that how its presented it looks like a ranking system where being higher rank is better. People chase ratings, even though they have no reason to. They get sucked into really desperatly caring about the stars because theyve been coniditoned by other games to do so.
My team comp 3, 4, 5. Every other team comp on server 5,5,6. You just can't convince me that's not bugged or broken. It's consistent as well, not a once or twice thing but to the point where we are hesitant to play these days.
Set a limit for how much a players MMR can rise or fall in a single match. This stops the volatility- and if youre genuinely doing "better" consistently, or as it may feel for some of us- Worse, youll slowly but surely shift to where you should be, without swinging rapidly all around constantly. 2- Id argue to slightly change how MMR is gained/lost between player/enemy interactions. 1 value for if you killed an opponent. 2nd value for if an opponent killed you. 3rd value for if youve both put each other down at least once. And thats it. Have the "value" of each vary depending on whatever your MMR difference is, but thats it, 3 possibilities. Both of these would serve to prevent wild swings in MMR, the 2nd also serves to stop people from using necro (or even help from a bount carrier) to rapidly de-rank. The 2nd also helps in situations where maybe youve been downed by someone, and then get revived by a buddy- only to instantly be downed again. Your skill hasnt rapidly changed- you just got picked up in a shitty situation. Or any other number of similar situations
The need to increase the MMR gap between stars. Currently the vast majority (>70% of the player base) are sitting a stone’s throw away from low 6 Stars in terms of MMR. Widen the gap, currently there seems to only be 4 possible skill levels, 3 star, 4 star 5 star, and 6 star. If they increase the MMR required to shift from one rank to the other, there might be more nuanced skill improvements within each rank on your way to the next, instead of just boiling down to “Oops I threw a frag bomb that wiped an entire team, instant rank up” If you look at Hunt’s MMR curve and scale it linearly, it literally looks like a needle point, almost nobody is 2-3 star, and almost nobody is high 6 star, everybody is clumped into 4 and 5 star which makes each game a coin toss as to whether you’re going to steamroll, get steamrolled, or actually have a fun and engaging firefight.
You get it! Bellcurves are historically a bad distributions tool for MMR systems. Especially, when you place everyone at what "appears" to be an "acceptable rank" to the average player. Right now, we essentially have 2 matchmaking pools. 1-3 are new players and people who genuinely don't know how to play the game & 4-6 is literally everyone else.
@@roscosimmons-shorts8050 Bell curves work when formed naturally like in CSGO but when your ranks are all piled up into a tiny MMR bracket and you still don’t do anything to fix it I’m just left wondering what the fuck Crytek is doing with their time.
The current MMR is flat shit, period. Go on four or five game streak with 5+ kills and hit 4 start. Then next round you die to low end 3 Star and you drop back down to 3 Star. I almost always play solo, I am something like nearly 300+ kills ahead of my death rate. Yet, somehow I cannot seem to bump up to 4 star and stay there long enough that the wrong death drops right back down. And before someone says not enough time, I have over 2k hours. The game has many problems but fixing MMR and getting a full game review like rainbow six siege and PUBG is also necessary for the game to grow.
Longer reply: They have to: -make brackets a bit wider, so games are less volatile -make it so only first death/kill per person affects MMR, still affects KD as usual. -reduce the solo modifier AND give option to disable it entirely if youwant to. This shouldn't harm anybody, but bring a few more solos into 5 star range if they so choose. MIGHT make it a bit wonkier regarding full teams. -revert wider MMR ranges now that each bracket itself is wider (think only 4 star within 4 star range)
I think the MMR system's only real 3 issues are the affect of soul survivor, the exact number not being shown (Ik PC can check online but that's not an option for console) and how easily changed it is. There is a big difference between a "I just got my 5 star for the 1st time" and "I had 3 bad matches now im a 5 star" for play.
For the longest time Dota 2 hid their MMR ranking - but people constantly clamor and demand it. It's an obsession, like you say, to quantify one's skill level and place. To measure "progress," even though we're far more likely to plateau than have a steady curve which is just frustrating. Anwyay, glad to see you understand stats reasonably well and invoke probability. There's nothing stopping a team of 6 stars from having a bad day, and matchmaking can't magically cause good matches if there aren't the players there. Obfuscating this data might actually help people get past how arbitrary all of this is in a game that's not truly competitive.
The matching system has a bigger problem than MMR, which is that the game matches you with people who use similar weapons with you. If you play sniper, the probability of there being another sniper in the game increases much more. If you play a hunting bow or crossbow, you are more likely playing against people using them. Yesterday I played 10 matches and in 5 of them, I played weapons such as vetterli and winfield without scopes, and the people on my team and the people against me were using rifles without scopes, like me. I played hunting bow in the other 5 matches and more than half of the people on my team were using hunting bows or crossbow, and in 4 of those 5 games I fought people using hunting bows and crossbows. The same thing happens when I play sniper. They need to fix this before the MMR issue.
Me and a buddy of mine said it from day one: Hide the MMR!! Of course it needs to be fixed first but there have been so many hunt sessions ruined for me because of people complaining every single match about something being unfair and it literally made me quit some sessions and it made me fucking mad about it. People really should try to have fun and not look for an excuse after every single match. Many of us jump all over the place with the MMR because it is the way it is. "Getting headshot running 300m? Has to be 6 star mosin spitzer sweatlord! Wallbanged? Has to be unfair matchmaking!" Like people get actually mad about it and start screaming and insulting other players just based on their star rating....... and it started IMMEDIATELY after the star rating has been introduced. I am 100% with you on this one, I would absolutely welcome an active, but hidden mmr system.
I tend to play soul survivor formerly known as quick play as warm up. At least I will often play that mode until I win a match before moving onto playing bounty mode. You make a good point, if Hunt is not meant to focus on ranking then should it even be displayed to the players. But I do think stats are important to individual players. In a game that's made up of random hunters/legendary hunters your identity as a player within the game may be strongly associated with the representation of your skill level and your player name.
Mmr has other factors not just kills/deaths on hunters. Assists and teammate kills will raise your mmr. Also just extracting with or w/o bounty raise it (possibly tied to xp earned).
I've been 3 stars forever and I guess I'm just confused as to the proposed goal of "SUPER REFINED ULTRA COMPETITIVE MATCHMAKING" like if you play against people who're better then you most of the time you're fucked (either you get ambushed and killed before the fight can happen OR you get juked / outmaneuvered / out-teched and killed), this would be fine if the play space was more chaotic or if the random enemies / conditions were more prevalent or could be adjusted somehow but as they can't your only reward for improving your play is the knowledge that you will experience more general difficulty more of the time, which isn't a great motivator.
my biggest problems coming in to this game as a newer player was i was facing people who are 5+ prestiges (even a prestige 100 once) or people with 1000s of hours over me. im just hitting level 60 ish and still face people who have more than x5 my time played. its becoming increasingly hard to enjoy the game when everyone I run into just has a huge time and acknowledge advantage over me. imo time should factor into match making ontop of mmr.
Two thoughts to add on this topic, one being a serious comparison and the other an obvious thing, but I still feel it is worth pointing out. 1: most other games don't display MMR like Hunt does. Other games show rank, but hide the MMR, while Hunt is permanently holding the MMR straight into your face every time you go into the lobby or watch the post match screen, Hunt presents the MMR in a way that feels like it is a ranked system while it actually is not. Since there are no ranks in the game by itself, the MMR is what people naturally gravitate to. It serves as a statement like it is a rank in other games. In other games you say "I am gold/master/elite/whatever", in Hunt you say "I'm a 4 Star". While in the practical way the Hunt MMR is not a ranked system, it very much does the same on the psychological and social level. 2: let's point out again that Crytek is making an active decision with the way MMR is implemented, it is not something every game has naturally. MMR exists because Crytek decided so, it is shown in easily understandable 1-6 Stars because Crytek decided so, the made you look at it everywhere because they decided so. What I am trying to say is that the issue is handcrafted. It is not a temporary inconvenience like a bug or a bad balancing decision. It is something the devs want as a part of Hunt. It is on them to properly handle and moderate it, and I think they are handling it very slowly. The most noticeable change they made was when they began forcing everyone into SBMM without refining the system at all. This was 1 or even 2 years ago by now, since then they did not change anything about it as far as I am aware.
I cant speak for other regions but in OCE/Australian lobbies it feels like there isnt any matchmaking at all. Its common enough that it feels like as a 3/4 star squad you almost always match against squads composed of 5/6 star players, at least one in each match of often every squad other than your own being much higher ranked. I dont know if this is due to the skill range of the region or the low playerbase but its rare to get a match where it feels even remotely fair as an mmr 3/4.
Matchmaking on low population servers is disabled at all or at least it is disabled if there are not enough players. Whatc my last video called why you shouldn't play on ru server. It's unfair. You get matched against monsters. I bet this happens on OCE too.
Hey. It's me. HuntBRO. I totally agree with your number 5 and I have to say I have been thinking this since the MMR and KD were shown in the first place. Having those stats visible will inevitably make people look at them and think about them. All the time. Nobody should have statistics in their mind when they are going into a match but in reality, many people do exactly that. What does that mean? It means that the mere display of those stats is going to influence players behavior. And that leads to weird, shifted gameplay of hunt and for me: less fun. Why? Too many people care about their MMR and K/D for that matter and it shows in their play. If you have a range of stars and categorize people in brackets, people are going to want to be higher. That is, many people, but not all. This leads to problems of K/D farmers, who are everywhere (I swear!). People fumbling with their MMR using Soul Survivor. And what is most annoying to me: overcautious players who fear of losing their precious MMR or lowering their K/D. Don't get me wrong: Nothing against players who prefer a cautious playstyle no matter their MMR. But there are loads of players whose behavior ingame is directly influenced by their MMR star rating. And that should not be the case. My MMR fluctuates between 3 and 5 constantly. So I get to play with many different kinds of players. Having 2k hours on my clock I can tell that generally speaking (of course just simplified) MMR 5 random team mates are mostly very fearful and overly cautious players who very rarely take any risk. BORING. MMR 4 players seem to have a much more relaxed attitude to playing a computer game (crazy isnt it ?) and therefore risk shit in game which leads to fun and memorable plays. I'd rather play with some 3 or 4 star dudes who are willing to try something, than with a MMR 5 sweatlord who extracts after he snuck a kill, to farm his K/D or one that stays 200m away all the time and runs away from every fight because he fears being shot. I also think the MMR is in no way a good representation of a players personal skill. Hunt: Showdown is not an arena shooter where kills are the only thing that matters, but the MMR system display makes it look that way and certainly many players treat it that way. That to me is a huge downgrade in the overall quality of Hunt gameplay. So I know the main problem here are the players. People just care too much about numbers and ratings. That's why hiding the stats would help a lot in my opinion. And in the long run, Crytek could come up with a new MMR system that is not only based on kills vs deaths. As with many pvp games MMR systems are mostly simplistic and pretend to give accuracy over time or amount of data collected. But in reality, I never felt, that that is accurate at all. Take any team-based sport as an example. Lets got with football (no, not american football for now). Various stats are tracked for each individual player. There are certain roles on the fields and positions. Judging a hunt player by kills vs deaths solely is like saying a football player is bad when he didnt shoot a goal. No football team consists of 11 strikers. And even if they would. Going back to hunt, the gameplay is complex aswell. Again, this is not an arena shooter, where we compete against each other even within the team. There are various tasks at hand and many things and tactics that come into play when it comes down to the chances of winning a fight and getting the bounty. That being said, none of that is in any way tracked by the MMR system. Right now it is ignoring most of the things that happen in game (which btw could be tracked), and it strips everything down to the mere fact of making kills. Anyway I just realized that I have written way more than I intended. Great video as always.
I would rather they tighten the spread and take longer to fill a lobby or just half fill it. Being the underdog on nearly every match has put friends off playing. The other week as a pair of three stars against trio four stars was pretty rough
Na. I want a full game. If some 6 star kills me... oh well. Though sometimes I kill the 6bstar hunter with weapons that are worth more than my entire hunter build!
@@binnieb173 yeah everyone's milage is gonna vary but usually I find 6 star servers quite boring as most of them seem to camp in a bush 150 meters away and just snipe
That's just not true at all. I've been a 5/6 star player since they introduced the mmr system and on average people are so aggressive up here. They also just know how to rotate and make good decisions and hit all their shots. The people who play passive in the higher mmr are the ones that are just barely in there and are about to get bumped back down to 4 star. I see the kids who used to be in the top of the leaderboards in our games and they literally run towards every shot they hear
What's interesting is that I had a big chunk of games in which lobbies weren't even full, like it was us and the other team only. It makes no sense given "full server > balanced mmr" criteria.
Ive mentioned before, the massive clump of 4 star players need spreading out so the mmr number being tweaked. so that the high 4 stars go into the 5 star bracket and the lower 4 star go into the 3 star bracket more the same with 3 and 5 star. that way there are more player in each bracket making it mor likely to get paired with them, rather than having a group of 5 stars getting paired with mainly 6 stars due to prioritising full lobbies. soul survivor should be completely separate mmr to bounty hunt to stop abusing it
The number one complaint I hear is that high four Star players start getting insta wrecked the moment they hit 5 stars. Your solution is the opposite of what people want.
@paddypibblet846 I think you miss understand then. Because if they wanted the opposite that would clump more people into the same star bracket and matches would be more unfair but just give them the same rating.. I do agree that 4 stars get wrecked by 5 star lobbies, but I see that as a different issue than just the players are alot better.
@HomeReel this may sound crazy but I think the MMR and KDA obsession is largely caused by the lack of purpose or progression in the game. What’s the objective in this game? In Tarkov it’s to amass supplies and work through vendor missions to build up your stockpile of rare gear. In DMZ (ick) it’s to unlock guns, skins, weapons slots, etc. You're always working toward something new that you can show off to others for boasting rights. In Hunt there’s nothing like this, just MMR and KDA, so that’s what people focus on.
My main problem that my 3star teammate will do the most incomprehensible thing imaginable, while the enemy 3star headshots me with a Winfield from 100 meters away. I feel that whenever I drop down to 3star I get assigned the most improbable freaks. Like I'm not great, but I'm not that awful to deserve these pairings
I would make the following changes: 1- I would stretch the rank of each star: Make it not so easy to go down and up in rank. This would make you find players who really belong to that range, because today seeing a 3-star player can only be a 5-star with a bad streak. 2- That there are no benefits or debuffs to play in Solo, BUT it would give some simple advantages such as some free accessories and tools in its load-out, such as a secured first aid kit, a stamina syringe, perhaps some decoy, etc. This would make it so that those who play alone continue playing with people of their level and not screw with players who are of lower rank, but at the same time it would compensate for them not having to spend so much money on equipping a hunter who will probably die. 3- Finally, I would stop focusing so much on creating disgusting hunter models (they are really ugly, there are few models that really look like cowboys/hunters) and I would focus more on improving the marketing of this game, because it has very few people involved. The base grows in events of people who already played it and when they finish it falls again.
I'm a bad first person shooter player, I'm bad at Hunt: Showdown, I have 114 hours as of the time writing this, and my friends have similar hours. Sometimes I feel like I have a great grasp of Hunt, I'll play solo and usually roll the lobby as a 3-4 star player. Then I queue with my friends who are significantly better at FPS games than me and understand the concepts of hunt significantly less. Due to the patience of them and their innate FPS knowledge to wait, not peek the same angles multiple times in a row (seems simple but you'd be surprised how often my dumbass repeat peeks) he has made it to 6 star once, and can almost NEVER leave 5. So when we go to play the quality of the players we fight is quite skewed. In frontal fights where both parties see each other first HE usually wins for us, but when it comes to Hunt specific knowledge like Compounds, angles, tricks, common hiding spots, and the perfect grenade angles that is where we REALLY lose. My friends can keep up in the FPS category with the higher stars but not in the game knowledge because we just haven't played long enough to burn the 1000 hour+ window recognition or creaky floorboard pinpoint headshot down to our brains yet. I feel bad when we get 3 stars even though I also feel like we belong there, because the hyperbolic time-chamber that is NEVER leaving 5 star has made us too bad to compete in 5 star, and too good to compete in 4 and below without it just being a stomp. It is GENUINELY problematic when I can effectively kill people in Hunt knowing they are actually the better player than me but I knew the compound better (spoiler, most people are better than me) And it's not one of those things where I get one kill and go "yup I made it boys, Hunt has a problem I killed someone" It's more like, my aim is tacky on a good day, and on the average day I can't hit the broadside of a barn. The point is my issues with Hunt is simply that the MMR difference in players, genuinely isn't a ladder it's a cliff. The quality of the players moving up ANY star is so dramatic to the last it's very impressive but quite problematic, a half-star system might help for like 3.5 star lobbies etc, but I really don't think you can fix it. Hunt is a game with so much knowledge demand that time-sinking into the game and learning the fundamentals is really what makes someone a high star player. That in mind, hiding your MMR I don't think would really help; I never die in a high star lobby and go "oh it's because he was 5 star and I'm a 3 star loser" it's more like I get wall banged 3 times in the head and go "Either they're cheating or they've played this game so long they know the floorboards I'm stepping on like their own house."
I spent time reducing my MMR because fighting against 5-6 stars all the time is exhausting and not fun. I may feel differently if we had other game modes and private lobbies where I can enjoy the game how I want and not get so frustrated. This frustration leads to burnout, especially after an event.
Wait is the MMR fucked? Since when?.... I thought I was in a rut.. I honestly think the MMR in this game has always been one of the best MMRs in games. I'm probably in a rut.. but dude... the game feels fair... people need to just accept sometimes you are bad sometimes you do good. Crying is not going to get you anywhere, but you can check what you are doing wrong make corrections, die, repeat. Learn and Adapt. Great video Home as always, I agree with 1 to 3 but point 4 could be messy and I like how the matchmaking works right now its one of the best to my experience, and 5 I actually enjoy looking to how bad or how good I'm doing against my friends we find it fun and compete with each other see who has more kills and stuff like that so that is a no for me. With a Hidden MMR I cant know where I am and l would lose that fun. I'm a low 4 star high 3 star usually, with my recent rut I'm probably low 3 star but I don't actually care.. I'm still having fun, stars usually just make me go "oh wow I'm a 4 I'm owning" and that's it. Players need to learn to relax and not take it so serious its not the end of the world to lower your rank its a game there is worst things in life.
Big issue me and my friends are seeing among our bigger circle, is that there are 5/6 star players using 3 star players as their 'buffer' to get into lower star matches. Or we have a full 3/4 star team doing things you only ever see in 5/6 star lobbies. So Smurfing has become a pretty crappy alternative game mode for some people.
I'm effectively a strictly solo player for two reasons... One being that the vast majority of the playerbase is dogwater at the game and when paired up with randoms they are usually more of a detriment to my gaming experience than they are a benefit. Even most 5 star players are legitimately bad at the game. The other being I do enjoy winning those 1v3 situations. Being a 6/5 star player, and as a solo at that, with over 4k hours, I've never felt like the MMR system was bad or matching me against players I have no business being in a game against. I can count on one hand the amount of times I've seen a 3/4 star team in my lobbies. While yes, it may happen, it certainly does not happen often. The vast majority of my games as a 6/5 star solo are against full 5 star or a mix of 5/6 star teams.
I hid my mmr so I don’t have to think about my stats and I’ve had a much more positive gameplay experience when I don’t have to worry about my rank, even though I usually end up in 5-6 star lobbies because of my friends and my skill. If you don’t see it, it makes the game more fun. Me and my friends have been complaining about the silly matchmaking of hunt for years lol
I’ve bugged people with this take before, but here I go. I’m an old boomer of a gamer. Eliminate the MMR. This game is meant to be hard and the law of averages suggest you will most likely run into 3-4 stars if you are dropped into lobbies at random. I’ve been playing war Thunder a lot and it has no formal MMR system and I can do incredible well at certain games, while as a new player, I never did well early on. Or at least make a hidden MMR system for the bottom 15% of players and brand new players. I remember games before these systems and I don’t remember being forever dunked on, but I do remember watching myself go from being bad to better as I played.
I’ve said this before, and I’ll say it again the Bayou thrives on the spirit that plays for fun and enjoyment the player that chases the stars and the numbers on the screen for KD are the ones that starve the bayou
SOLUTION: First off its not a complete MMR problem. The real problem is boring matches all together. When players log in and finally get in a game the game should be fun. You waited all that long time loading and searching for a team, long load times just to get into an empty server or a game with low engagement of other players. Two bounty boss games should only be for a full server. If the server doesn't fill up there should be one boss. Second, make it so players can only see their own MMR rating because that is another way players quit out of games making it more difficult for match making. Those two changes alone will fix player engagement, you will have quicker matches that are more fun.
I really like having a relatively transparent MMR system. I can think of several multiplayer games that had hidden MMR values (that were often detached from your rank) from games like League of Legends and Overwatch. I know those are ranked, competitive games but it was still endlessly frustrating. I think I just want the MMR system to be a little less volatile. It seems like my games can violently swing from doing really great one night to getting stomped the next. Just last night I had a roster of 9 leveled up hunters. One session later and I have 3 left and only one got a win. That's maybe a poor anecdote but ah well.
Whole-heartedly agree with you on solo matchmaking. It's not supposed to be fair. I think attempts to balance it might actually be harming the playing experience for the average player.
I feel like MMR should be much more closely tied to both K/D and overall Bounty score. I know some people will try and argue that you can have high bounty and a poor K/D and not be the greatest at the game, but a player with a million bounty didn't get that bounty by not playing the game - even if they're a dedicated rat player, who actively chooses to disengage from fights and tries their hardest to snatch bounties over kills, that's still a valid playstyle because at the end of the day, they still won. They still got the bounty, meaning they still beat everyone else in the lobby. Bounty is already fully visible to anyone who looks at the "last match" team screen, it's already something tracked by the game and it's something me and my Hunt buddy use as an actual metric for balance. I hover around upper 4 star to low 5 star, and if don't play for a while, like say a week or two, my MMR is set down to 3 stars, without fail. This means that the MMR system inherently isn't accurate - when I take a break and come back and get absolutely merked by a player who is also at "3 stars", that doesn't actually mean anything - when their bounty, however, is more than 4x my own, that definitely doesn't mean nothing. Bounty is very directly correlated to time spent in the game, and time spent *effectively* in the game. Bounty alone obviously wouldn't be an entirely fair and accurate measuring stick for MMR team placement (smurf accounts being the biggest issue), but paired primarily with K/D and secondarily with a more "current" MMR (like how the game currently only seems to be influenced by the past few matches), it would feel much, much fairer. There is no perfect MMR or star rating or K/D to chase - it's just number go up. If you're playing well, and getting kills and/or bounty tokens, your bounty goes up, and that is meaningful information.
One of those people who has and does abuse both solo rez and QP scumming here. In the group of hunters I play with matchmaking and MMR is a hotly contested topic and something we have pondered the solution to. My opinion on the solution is as follows. 1. First Hunt Showdown has got a stagnant player pool consisting of sweat lord lifers 5-6*, loyal casuals high 3* to low 5*, and 1-3* who will never stick around past six months. That last demographic is actually what's hurting the player base the most. Those players would organically wind up in 4* and the best of that crop would ease into 5-6* while the more casuals would float 3-4*. Crytek needs to address the hemorrhaging player count either by going Free to play or finding some other incentive to keep players. 2. This is in direct line with issue 1. Get rid of MMR all together or hollow it out and rebuild it from the ground up. By basing the new MMR off of two things K/D and overall total kills. I have seen a million times a supposed 4* with a 1.60 K/d demolish a team of also 4* with a K/d of .90-1.15. Coincidentally a lot of casuals and semi casuals float K/d around .90-1.50 and scummers and smurfs have a substantially higher K/d. This kills two birds with one stone because A. Solo rez and QP abuse is a non issue, and newer players are more likely to stick around when they aren't getting violated ever other match. You shouldn't have to spend two days blowing out your MMR for a 30-40% wins for the night that alone is a red herring that so many players will spend that much time for a evening of fun
What are your thoughts on the MMR/Matchmaking issues?
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Kind of weird to think that Hunt is the only game for me where I'm not that excited to raise my mmr rating. Usually just means that I get a higher chance to go against cheaters, or extremely skilled players way above our league.
One thing you missed is that the game creates MMR "baskets" (brackets) based on the current player population. If your team happens to be at the bottom of one of these brackets you're in for a bad night, since most kills will gain you a bunch of MMR and deaths will lose you almost none.
Just remove the entire MMR System. Matchmaking ruins every game nowadays.
Just give the newbies a longer time on their 1 Star Servers.
This is a great discussion but when are you going to review the Bow 😂
I find your idea of hiding the stars funny.
Mostly because the MMR System has always been in place and crytek only made it visible because people had gotten very weird about k/da.
You are never going to be able to get rid of the kind of person who either a) thinks they only lose when the odds are stacked against them or b) can't see past a MMR/kda/rank/prestige/etc
Solo player here. I don’t play solo for the challenge. I just can’t rely on randoms, and teammates I can communicate with is hard to find.
I don't run with randoms because I use a sniper, and lord I would lose so much faith in this community if I got skipped because of that
@@deathshop2172literally every sniper I played with that wasn’t in a call with me, waited 10 minutes to push. Camped my body, then fucking died lmao
@@yosemitesam9576 I did. The two I got were 5stars and talking about SAing each other. Really horrible people. Plus, avtomats spam.
Same here, but more because playing alone is nice for chilling sometimes
I agree I prefer playing solo personally. I find it to be a far more immersive experience and it's nice to be able to play without constantly having to think about what your team is doing. I don't hate a challenge but if you remove the mmr debuff solo play will become closer to impossible than challenging. If I had to choose I would far rather loose the recent solo buffs and keep the mmr debuff than the other way around.
I started playing hunt late august, after my friend recommended it to me, the learning curve was hard, but we ended up getting really into the game. Its now been almost a month playing on and off couple times a week. And we have hit the point where we dont even get fights anymore, we just get destroyed, or we end up inn these really long drawn hide and seek games where we waste a tremendous amount of time, just to get headshot by the guy when you finally do find them. There has been a complete shift in our mmr, where we got lucky and extracted some games, and other games where we got lucky, but suddenly we were both at 5 stars and now we are just constantly getting into games way above what we used to play against.
Yea life of a five star for ya, I’ve been playing for years and I kinda miss the uncertainty going into a match, now I take one look at my mmr and know what to expect more or less, most of the time it’s an ass beating lmao
I take no pride in shitting on 3 to 4 Star players. I even get embarrassed when I thought I was good only to find out Hunt matched me with low level players. So what's with all the 5 stars complaining that they're being matched with other 5 stars?
@@paddypibblet846 the way I see it is the same problem that’s going on in cod. We don’t want to just crap on bad players all the time but we also don’t want to play the game like it’s a world tournament every game. Turn off MMR and have it random. I don’t wanna come home from work and try my best every time I just want to play for fun.
Until the last event (Tide of Shadows), I was very lenient towards those people who liked to complain about matchmaking.
At some point during the event, my trio of two 4 stars and one 3 star literally in one or two successful matches turned into two 5 stars and one 4.
Note: our average party KDA is 1-1.3.
And from that moment on, every game turned into PAIN. Each subsequent round we died within a few seconds after colliding with the players, catching instant headshots from hundreds of meters from regular teams of 5-6 stars. We suffered and hoped that at least our rating would drop quickly and we would return to our usual 3.5-4 stars. But it didn't (or did it extremely slowly).
All this led to the fact that from active players we turned into cowardly bush-rats who were simply afraid to get involved in ANY firefights, for fear of meeting another team of 5-6 stars who would send us to the lobby in seconds. Need I say what motivation there is to try to continue playing after this? I think not.
You can't keep winning .. you have to crash and fall and go again .. that's the only way to improve or do you want lock 3* and play it over and over again? MMR is good
Skill diff
If you do trios you have a 1/4 chance of winning the match implying everyone is equally skilled. So you'll still get crapped on for 3 games until you win 1.
Hearing the devs say that they are going to emphasize full lobbies is incredibly worrying for me. When I play with my friends I am often getting matched with 4 and 5 stars as a 3 star and them saying they are widening the ranges just sounds like it's going to make that problem worse, at least with empty lobbies I can occasionally get a win.
This last week I was playing on a team of 1 5* and 2 4* players. 2 of us are on new prestige-es, 1 of us literally had a scottfield and a combat axe. We had a massive full-server fight in the center of the map around the solo boss that we somehow narrowly won. It involved multiple of us going down multiple times, but we clutched it up. The team we fought had full long-ammo load outs, one even had a nitro express and he was GOOD with it. After extraction, we found that it was a full stack of 6* players with 2 of them having 2+ k/d’s and one of them having a 3.31 k/d. I’m still amazed that we won, but that’s kinda the beauty of hunt. When we began that fight my teammate (1.03 k/d who has never been 5* before) suggested we run away. I told him we could stay and play off the other teams and it worked out. That buddy hit 5* for his first time ever after picking up 3 kills during that fight. I guess the moral of the story is that even if fights feel unfair and Crytek doesn’t respond, don’t loose hope. This is Hunt, every fight is winnable. While some days feel like I’m playing a death simulator, getting a win against a team like that feels incredible. Hopefully Crytek balances out mmr sooner rather than later, but until that day comes I welcome the chance to play against players far superior to me and see what I can learn from them.
One important issue which will kill player retention is that mmr doesn't look at total hours played in hunt. I've seen games where players with 100-200 hours are thrown against players with 4000 hours. Both have 4 mmr. First player has just started playing, second player knows everything.
I definitely see you’re point but I honestly think that the steep and brutal reality check of being new to Hunt is what forces players learn quick or die. Lol
improvement is so satisfying.
I should state I don’t care about mmr at all.
@@xHappyHxCx true to a point, but when a new player constantly gets killed before they have a chance to learn the map and how to move around compounds I could see why it would be demoralizing for a new player
Yeah... Hours played should absolutely weigh in the matchmaking process... And the total number of kills as well, not as in the KD sense, but as in the "fighting experience" the player has gained...
What are they supposed to do about that? Tell people who are still 3 star after 4000 hours just "fuck you, you go into 5 Star now" or how do you imagine fixing this? If they are still 3 Star after 4k hours maybe they just arent that good of a player..
I don't know about this. There are so many people who are terrible at this game, with thousands of hours. Some people just don't get better, can't just toss them to the wolves cause they like the game.
I think hiding stars or kda could help a bit to ease things a bit but it just does not make things better. 6 Stars will still play against 3 Stars it just wont be visible. And in the end people can just look at the profile of their killer if its public to see the hours played in hunt. If you get killed as a 100hours player by a 6000hours player you still might ask yourself why you play in a lobby with them.
Correct! Hiding information from the player, without changing the core system, is the worst possible outcome. The players this change is aimed at will not notice anyways, they are too busy having a blast running only melee weapons in 2 star with sub 100 hours. Removing information is the laziest way of attempting to effect change. How many games have removed scoreboards, player stats, leaderboards, etc. only to add them back in later? I can think of at least 3 off the top of my head right now. Less information is not a good trend to adopt. When you have to start hiding things from your player base in an attempt to correct player behavior, instead of fixing your system - you've failed.
You are missing one massive oversight here: people are hella lazy. I think it would absolutely benefit the game and all the players, because you are not immediately shown how much of a skill difference there was.
For me at least, i made it a habit to look at the mmr board and to THEN rage about match making. If this wasn't there i would almost never look at all the people's profiles. But it is just too easy to see.
Also Hunt is a hardcore shooter, so getting one-tapped is not something unusual. Anyone can one-tap everyone in theory. It's just when you show the player how "skilled" the other one was that you start to get angry about the match making.
I remember back in the day when there was no match making, we used prestige as the metric of choice, rarely KD (KDA did not exist yet). It was less frustrating because you could only roughly estimate how good or bad the players were.
Now prestige meant a lot more back in the days, you rarely saw someone above 20, let alone 50... So not really comparable to nowadays. But i still do believe that players that do not know the full truth are happier players.
i don't mind if they hide it, but i think they want to show it because some players think that 6 star is something to work towards, personally i couldn't care less, i think this was one of the rare games where you just login to play and have fun, "was" because they introduced they revamped weekly challenges which introduces the FOMO shit that forces players to play something they don't want to get currencies.
@@rexe30k Correct again! I hate seeing Hunt resort to FOMO events and challenges instead of good game design for holding player retention. And you know what, it's very clear that's all it is because this games life cycle is the most transparent battle pass cycle I've ever seen. During events and quests player numbers skyrocket and once people unlock what they want they dip until the next event. If they focused on addressing a lot of the major ping, connectivity, and server issues you'd have a better baseline for new players to enter into. People don't mind getting their ass beat in Counter Strike, Fortnite, etc. because there is a clear discernable reason for why it happened. In Hunt I still after 5 years have someone trading with me a full second after they die because people with 212ms ping are allowed on whatever server they want to.
+1 for max transparency. I simply cannot understand why private profile is even a thing. Say you and your friend die to a somewhat suspicious guy and would like to see if this guy is actually good and just has an absurd amount of hours in the game like having 30 000 kills with a kda of 2.5 or whether he's most likely a cheater with like 1000 kills and a kda of 12. Welp, can't do that cause he's just toggled on private profile
For the longest time I was obsessed with getting to 6 stars and increasing my KDA. When I started playing dark and darker which has neither a visible kda or elo, I feel like I can finally enjoy a game so much more. Honestly, most of us who play hunt want to be good at it because its so unforgiving. We don't need another reminder or how good/bad we are. Just remove the visible stars because I don't think crytek or the player base would ever want to remove visible KDA
this.
100 percent agree, a visible mmr sucks the fun out of the game
Absolutely... This obsession with the little, meaningless stats warps the way so many people play the game...
I think you have the answer
I agree with this. but I can also see the retorts being something like "They're just trying to hide how bad matchmaking is", or something to that effect
6:09 Hunt Showdown is not intended to be a competitive FPS game.
However, In the Steam Store page of Hunt it says:
"Competitive, match-based gameplay combines PvP and PvE elements to create a uniquely tense PvEvP experience where your character and your gear are always on the line."
That's just a keyword description of the game, any game where players compete against each other for a common goal can be considered 'competitive'. Hunt is competitive in a sense that you essentially only have one life and have to work your way back up if you die, but it isn't considered 'competitive' in terms of what the average competitive videogame is. Actual competitive-category videogames like R6, CSGO, Apex, etc. all have league play and other aspects to the matchmaking/game that make it more of a competition.
I've been saying it over and over, the elo system in Hunt is a half-baked and rushed feature. Reverting the matchmaking changes back to "fair over full" lobbies and removing elo from Soul Survivor entirely are two top priorities IMO. Giving way to the top 5% of the playerbase just so they don't get empty lobbies or run into the same two trios every match for the whole evening is a bad move, just like having a fast, convenient and cost-less feature to derank is.
Next, rework the gain/loss of MMR for solos - no more losing an entire star rating after one match because nothing is preventing you from clicking a button 5 times to die to a lower-ranked player. No more "KD goes up MMR goes down" situations requiring you to wipe half the server just to not be put against even lower-ranked players than the match before.
Next, like you said, long-term MMR. Right now you can grab meme loadouts, have fun for a couple hours and end up fighting new players, then grab long ammo and end up right back. Ridiculous.
Next (this is a bit of wishful thinking on my part) incorporate playtime/KD/other stats into matchmaking. You might disagree, but a 4star with 100 hours against a 4star with 2k hours will just lose most of the time, simple as. Experienced players with poor PvP performance don't want to fight new players who spend 20 minutes just to get to the boss only to sit in a random corner for another 20 minutes the moment it turns red until those experienced players push them or leave. I have almost 2k hours and hover around 3-4 stars because I play a lot of solo and my aim is garbage, but the moment I queue randoms, who do I get? Teammates with
The MMR system being broken makes it very difficult to build a player base and further keep a player base. Newer and casual players will find themselves quickly not having fun and as a consequence, stop playing. I think one of the biggest help to fixing MMR are between 3 points you hit on, removing its attachment to quick-play, having it be a rolling observation of KDR over the course of a 30-40 day period that KDR measures your star ranking, and this one has to be tied in with making it much harder for the MMR to go up and down which covers the solo necro problem too. I would much rather wait for a Match another few minutes to get a more fair lobby. Great video, good insight to the single biggest issue with this game (if it is going to last another 5 years)!
Just as a note, the mmr issue is even worse on console because of the smaller playerbase
yeah why dont u play with PC people? kek
On console will be smaller and smaller.... So will be really bad in future.
Agreed. There is a huge disparity between player's skill on console. PC players will likely never understand. The most disadvantaged are PS4, then PS5, then XBox. It's pretty incredible what a difference a few frames per second make. That being said, this is where console players will find that once they reach a certain time of day (later at night) that they will be consistently facing the exact same highest level team on their particular platform. If the people you're playing with don't recognize them (usually on bounty pick up) and play a very specific way, they will go down in short order and you now are 1 v 3. This was orders of magnitude worse back when explosive ammo was introduced. I'd rather the game give these guys dead lobbies than put them in lobbies with far weaker players... because the result is the same... it creates dead lobbies eventually.
@@seanpurdy8230 I've ran into Whodouthinkr like 4 times this month as a 4-5 star 😫
It's really not. I'm a higher 5 star and rarely see any 4s even in my games, unless of course the teams are clearly playing with their newer friend.
I agree with all your points, but especially your last one. I've met a number of people who are overly obsessed with what their MMR is. They focus too much on gaining MMR and don't like to push or help the team in risky situations because they are afraid of losing MMR.
this so much
Absolutely this... The incredible obsession that many players inexplicably have with those meaningless little numbers warps so much the way this game is played... This is especially absurd in a totally asymmetrical game like Hunt, where the tactical situation and the loadout difference often trump the sheer skill (that can be measured by KD or MMR) of the players (I'm not refferring to the tactical ability and such of course)
1000%. It's so annoying and ruined multiple actually fun sessions because of complaints and excuses after every.. single.. match. It's exhausting
ya. i only play with friends I know but watching people who have pugged and just seeing your 3rd member just immediatly leave as soon as you go down is just bonkers to me.
my squad its we all leave or none of us leave. ((with obviously zero bounty redskulls as an acception))
Removing the leaderboards was a good step and I feel removing stars from the menu would definitely be a nice continuation of that too. It feels like having that score always visible causes more issues than it fixes, even just subliminally.
I agree.
Absolutely... Camping, sniping, griefing, cheating, exploiting, re-shading, nvidia inspecting, not ressing, not risking and many other -ings, all stem from the silly obsession with those little numbers...
Agree 100%. I said it was stupid when they introduced it, and I still stand by that all these years later.
Make it viewable to that player only. What possible benefit is there to making it viewable by others? I struggle to think of any. I can think of many reasons why it's a bad idea though...
Solo here also, i generally find mmr ok, im only a 3 star but i guess thats my level and thats that. However just now i have been stomped by a 2 star duo with following stats
1. KDA 2.2, 2778 boss kills, 3067 duo kills, 218 max hunters.
2. KDA 1.2, 3416 boss kills, 2507 duo kills, 212 max hunters.
These guys are clearly gaming the system especially the first guy.
My main issue is that it feels like bringing along lower MMR players does almost nothing at all to our group MMR. I'm a high five player and trying to queue with my three star friends that are sub-100 hours and new to the game does almost nothing at all, since it averages up to four stars and lets us match with full stacks of five stars anyways; and since the five star bracket is so wide, the skill level of people in it is all over the place, making the entire MMR system feel completely arbitrary at that point.
You are correct and have a more nuanced understanding of the MMR system than Homereel does, even if it's by accident. The way it weighs players is very odd and it tends to be top heavy once your average MMR has crossed into 4*. Ever since the change I'm seeing really clear repeatable distributions. Instead of attempting to average people around an anchor point I'm seeing this exact distribution game to game; 4* 4.5* 5* 5.5*. Why does is this happening? Why is it creating a sliding scale from the low range to the high range? Shouldn't it be matching 2-4 of one group, with 1-2 outliers. The difference between 4* average mmr & 5.5* is gigantic. You might as well put a 1* team in there for fun at that point.
@@roscosimmons-shorts8050 It's because the carry effect is stronger than the anchor effect. Other games have published data on this in their versions of MMR or ELO.
@Fongletto it's not though. You need to factor in the anchor&&no mmr balance change. In essence you're "carrying" at a man disadvantage against your level enemies.
@@roscosimmons-shorts8050 I often felt that a 1 star or similarly low player in a team will bring down the average of a team up to a point where the game decided that me and my friend playing duos vs trios at 4 and 5 stars would often face constellations of 2 5 stars and 1 1 star
With my measly 100hrs and having never left 3 stars lobbies I have never encountered any of the issues that the community is discussing but I think the transparency part is a big one.
I know that game designers cannot reveal all of the reasons and inner workings of their systems (for obvious exploitation reasons) but a little would go a long way.
But yeah, it's a fine line to ride because the small vocal community isn't always right or knows what's best for the longterm health of the game.
once you have 1 teammate that is 4 , 5 ⭐ .... lobbies will be shitty .
So far the only people I've personally seen complaining about MMR are vets with 600+ hours in the game, which while very anecdotal make the claim that MMR is driving new players away feel very meaningless.
@@Xear00maybe, but just the other night I saw a 1/5 star team vs a 6/6 star team and it makes me wonder if that one star will continue to play. I personally know three people that stopped playing because of this kinda stuff (I understand this is still anecdotal, but seeing it first hand makes me wonder how many others have a similar experience)
Im new and the mmr seems fine for me. No problems at all
@@salsinger9985 Cant be more true. I have a friend that is 4 stars and im 3 (eventually i go to 4 and him down to 3).
Lobbies are THE CHAOS late night... A lot of 2 and 5 stars on the same lobbie.
Eventually you got some shots that you only think: (are you serious?) ---------- usually a 5 star.
And some guys that make you think ''wtf this guy is doing?'' ----------- (usually a 2 star)
Not to mention... Im being a 3 to 4 star...
The difference of 3 to 4 star (as solo is like night and day)...
Not to mention... If im hit 4 star sometimes... Im a ''high'' 3 and ''low'' 4...
The difference is greater than i expect.
There's no need to take away stars or KDA, the people who want to focus on those things can. The issue is they are promoted as the only way to win. One of the main goals of hunt showdown is to collect bounties. But yet there is literally no way of founding out how good a player is at doing that. The absolute best way to handle this problem is to simply dilute the value of stars and KDA by adding multiple different ways of 'winning'. After all, it's not a competitive game and it never can be because there is no 1 true goal that defines whether or not you 'won'.
Give me a bounty extract rating that shows me how good I am at successfully collecting the bounty.
Add a sniper rating that shows how good you compared to other players at fighting long range engagements over 100 meters.
Add a shotgun rating that shows how good you compared to other players at close ranges.
Add a Bomber rating that scores you at how good you are killing people with consumables.
Hi, OCE player here with 700 hours of play time. I bounce between 3 and 5 star all the time but get matched with 6 star players constantly. Me and my friends have notcied it always happens when we are in a squad together. When we play solo or even just with randoms it doesn't happen and we feel like were having a much better time in much more even fights.
It's honestly gotten to the point where it feels like a penelty to want to play with your friends so we have just moved to playing other games where you dont feel punished for wanting to talk and have fun with your friends. I think out of everything, thats whats pushed me and my friends to stop playing hunt.
In my opinion i miss what old games did, have a casual game mode with no mmr and if you got a bad game filled with insane players, better luck next time, theres a good chance they wont be in your game again.
But if you really want even matches and to push yourself, play the ranked mode with mmr.
It feels way better when you just get thrown into a random game with someone better then you and loose then having the game try and calculate who you should match with for ages and continuosly get it wrong and you get smashed over and over.
My problem with MMR started the moment I hit 5star - and fell down to 4ish - I started playing with people way more skillful than I.
After hitting that 5star merely by accident, I lost 0.3 KDA (from 1.5 to 1.2) and I doubt that I suddenly started playing so much worse. I feel it, the people around me are playing better, even for a 3star lobby.
The level of competition in 5/6 is actually bonkers,god damn sweats in every game try harding like their mother lives depend on it😂
@@tunelowplayslow8101 The point is I dropped down to 3-4 and people around me are still as skilled as in 5+ most of the time. Seems like they also dropped from 5 to 3, just like I did, but on the contrary to myself, they so belong to 5, while I belong to 3.and I want to play with those 3s
@@SelikBready As a person who played since the game went live, the old system was far better for constant player-base.The current system punishes the core game-play and that's emphasized in the top bracket. I personally am stuck in a 5-6 star bracket and want out because I can kill them cause the players ARNT skilled in 5-6 star bracket mostly, they just meta game farm stars instead. I average 13 kill games as a solo only to die to a bunch of shit lords who just spam traps, necro, or camp to death everything. Cause my kill count is so high and my death count is blisteringly low since the MMR bracket came out I cant leave 5 stars -.- As a person who got this system thrown on him, I haven't extracted from a single run in close to 2 years (due to this I have put in less and less time, so before 2019 I put in 500 hours, 2019 put us 1.0 and I put in less then 100 hours, the gimmicks of holloween and Christmas got me to come back total of 30 hours in 2020, 2021 - 2022 I put in less then 40 hours total and about 100 people I knew from the hunt community quit entirely. This year I have 6 games 4 durring event, 2 after event, I had more fun after the event but even then it wasnt really as fun as it was before camping bullshit and leaderboards were added and it was made worse by current MMR changes). If I wanted to play a bootleg CoD game I can fire up a fuck ton of those for 5 dollars on steam, seems the devs think they got a great system though as they kept it for so long...
@@SelikBreadyTwo problems with your statement. 1. You don't "accidentally" climb up. You have to literally kill players to climb up, that's not an accident. 2. You're implying there's some hidden MMR stat for players who deranked, but there isn't. You're going up against actual lower star MMR players atm. Seems that you're just bothered you're not winning every game. But let's say you go trios for example, there's four teams of three. Your chances of winning the game are 1/4, so you should still expect to lose much more than you win. I've noticed that if people don't win most games they feel like they're being unfairly matched up but that's just not true.
@@paddypibblet846 1. Climbing by accident can be quite easy tho. I killed a 6star a couple of times with shotgun and that moved me to 5str. Since that never happened ever since, I call it an accident. 2. How can you be sure there is no such thing? What if game tracks all-time high MMR of a player and match them according to it together with current MMR? I.e. if I never had 4 stars, I'll play with other people who never were higher than 3, but if I had 5 str, than I could also play with ppl who had 5star before.
And it's not about winning, it's about kda. Having consistent kda for a year, and then losing 30% of it in a week or two? I literally died about hundred times while I killed like 10 ppl. Not even talking that ppl started to land shots that I never saw before.. maybe everyone just became better overnight, while I didn't
If you hide the stars you make the mmr system into the realm of superstition. People are still going to obsess about their rank and fear it, they'll just have to resort to external tools or speculation to find the truth
The presence of SBMM is pretty obvious, even when it's hidden. When you go from being matched against bots one match to sweat-lords the next, it's not hard to figure out what's going on. I'd rather know the game thinks I suck rather than stress out about background processes that are manipulative. The best theoretical solution I can think of is to put the people below a 1.0 K/D in a protected bracket and let everyone else get matched by ping. Either that or give higher stars some kind of reward to discourage reverse-boosting (and why shouldn't you be rewarded for having to artificially go against stronger players in the first place?).
I agree. Not that I particularly like all the stats but the genie is kind of out of the box already. Matchmaking was already a widely discussed issue before MMR got visible and perhaps more so. You can't stop people from trying to make sense of what is happening and uninformed that will inevitably lead to all sorts of sour theories.
@@slayerwasherematched by ping wouldn't work. The Chinese cheaters use proxy servers.
I'm 4 stars and my teammate I usually play with is 3 but for some reason we keep getting paired with teams of 4 and 5 stars. The people I go against also tend to have 2.5 times the hours I have and it seems like we can never take out any teams. We always kill a few of them and then get killed but it seems rare that we take out a team. And it keeps fluctuating to where we are pitted against higher players and then when we take a break from the game we get put against lower or equal skill players before getting constantly wrecked the next day. I wonder if maybe the fact that we take out several enemies but usually don't win teamfights makes the game think we are doing better than we actually are? Since all it counts is kills and deaths and not actual success. I haven't played the game since last event so I might not remember well enough but I remember that's a part of why I don't play the game much. I definitely remember it being a problem for a really long time now
So true, same thing here, being put in a lobby where literally everyone is 1-2 stars higher game after game and day after day is incredibly frustrating.
I can tell you what happens here, i reverse engineered the mmr system for the app called 'HuntStatsLogger'. Whenever you fight against someone with higher stars than you, you gain A LOT more mmr by killing them and loose basically nothing when dying to them. So when you manage to kill just one and then die, your mmr still shoots up.
But the real problem here is how do you define 'actual success'? You clearly define it by killing a team, maybe even leaving the server with a bounty. But i know a lot of people and personally am one of those who measure success based on just pure kills a round. I don't care that i died - if i took out 6 hunters before the death. I always measure success by my KDA which i know is taking the fun out of the game but i can't help it. Whenever i can leave a server with a bounty, but died more than i made kills i am pissed. I do not count that round as success then.
@@rein_engel Yeah, as someone who's a 3 star gamer with a 0.56 KD who plays with friends who are 4 or 5 stars it is very frustrating and half the time feels like I'm pretty much dead weight
When I played in the Hunt discord I would constantly run into groups of people who I would join that would openly talk about using quick play to MMR down rank. I would say out of 5-6 teams per session I would join, there would be at least 1-2 where the group was either people openly looking for MMR down rankers or lobbies where it was on 5*+ guy only looking for 2.3* players. I typically don't look at the stars on a player... Even my potato ass has touched 6*.
Yeah, quickplay abuse is much more widespread than Home here is saying. Don't know why he plays it down.
Yeah i just don’t care about my MMR. and I think showing it to people just encourages this type of behavior you are talking about. Not to mention smurf accounts and all manner of cheating.
@@RexVergstrongprobably sohe can use it as a way to get some easy clips😂
@@RexVergstrongbecause he is a crytek partner
@@RexVergstrong because as he stated,"how common is that? no idea" followed by a joke of no one plays it.
he made a joke about it but he dosnt know how common it is as he stated. which isnt downplaying. he put it as one of the major issues people have.
I didn't know about MMR bracket changes for a long time, but somewhere around April I started to have much and much worse experience in this game: chain losses, instant deaths without any chance to fight back, getting my face blown by random wallbang 10 times more often and so on. My k/d dropped, my MMR dropped from stable 5 to 3 and 4. Shortly, it felt like suddenly I've lost most of my skill in this game. While getting stomped all over in every match I started to notice much more 6 star 2+ k/d players queued against me, while before, even on 5 stars, seeing a 6 star was a rare occasion.
And then I read about the MMR changes happened right at the beginning of Spring and it all just became clear: it's not me who started to play worse, it's fkn Crytek decided they should feed me to the 6 star bayou sweats. Last 6 months have been horrible and playing against 3 stacks of 3+ k/d 6 stars is a usual 4 star player's evening. Even if I consider to derank it still won't change unless I derank to 2 stars and waste more time deranking than actually playing.
The only thing they need to do is to revert the damn thing and never touch it again.
I don't think mmr is the issue, I think it's how mmr affects gameplay. Speaking as someone who often fluctuates between 4 (sometimes 3) and 5(sometimes 6) star, I found that I have more fun when I'm at 3-4 start the 5-6. At 5-6 star people are more prone to camp bushes, camp corners with shotguns and overall just being rats as opposed to wanting to have an actual gunfight
Its funny to me because that's how people in the 1-low3 star play. They rat in bushes and hide with shotguns and snipers.
I do think MMR is an issue, when I play with my friends I'm on average a 4 star sometimes on a good day I'll gain a 5th star. The past week I have been playing by myself in duos, and I've been getting stomped, to the point I'm now in 2-3 1/2 mmr, and I'm still getting stomped. The problem I think is from the combination of "new" players not by default being in the 3-4 but being lower 1-3 stars, when some players are certainly just using a new account and have definately played before, and the second is how Soul Survivor actually affects bounty hunt mmr, and people go into it to derank.
@@manatauro1436 I've been playing in 2-low three star lobbies the past like 3 days, and its the same. No one even banishes the boss they crouch walk and bush camp the whole game. I think what I've seen from this all is its all just super inconsistent, everybody seems to have a different experience with it, but what gets me is people calling everyone out for "not being in my region/mmr" instead of realizing that what this shows is hunt is super inconsistent and broken
@@manatauro1436 and also, just because I'm saying low mmr plays like that doesnt mean high mmr cant. I mean, thats my point is that both extreme ends of the mmr range seem to play the same - super rat bush camp snipers and shotguns
Just wanted to say that on your number 3 point is that the game doesn't care about stars when matching. It uses the raw MMR value. So, you can increase the brackets all you want, but a large gap in between (despite the star number not changing) would still lead to skill mismatches and confusion. The reason being is because you would essentially be turning, hypothetically for example, 4 stars into 6 stars as it is now, and both of those skill types would be under the same star. That would mean the game, and people seeing it, would expect the skill level to be similar when it actually wouldn't be at all - not even close. We don't want a situation where one star could be so drastic in skill levels as that wouldn't be an accurate representation.
The ideal approach is to reduce volatility and favor consistency. Players should only move ranks/stars when they are consistent in their gameplay skill. No MMR system should ever have anyone move up multiple stars in a game, or just a few games. It should take many, consistent kills and deaths to move up or down. To follow this ideal, most modern MMR systems, like Glicko2, use an uncertainty value when computing MMR. That uncertainty value is similar to the average you mentioned, but it is different. The idea is that a player will start at a very high uncertainty value which allows for larger MMR gains and losses. However, over time, the uncertainty value shrinks as the player plays more games, and thus will create a much slower MMR progression (up or down) that is based on consistency of the player. You can read a little about it here: math.bu.edu/people/mg/glicko/glicko2.html.old
With that said, this is how most online games reduce the volatility of MMR/ranks on players, and Hunt should be using something similar. It was a mistake that Hunt used such an archaic system (straight ELO) when it doesn't even work well for competitive games. Hunt's MMR system would be drastically better with this one simple change to the whole.
A small issue that i've noticed is actually something that i don't see mentioned a lot. I float at 6*/high5* depending on the day, and i almost exclusively duo queue into trios with a friend who is 5*. What we are consistently running into, even at peak hours, are full 3 stacks of 6* players, despite the game allegedly providing a malus against our ELO. It's incredibly disheartening to see, and frustrating to deal with, because in a game like hunt every individual body matters and simply adding another player of equal or higher skill to a team you're fighting turns the odds in their favor an extreme amount. Anecdotally it's very disheartening to fight teams where you're punching up on the entire enemy team AND they have a numbers advantage on you, and makes it seem like the system doesn't function at all. Personally, it's very tiring to fight the same teams and names over and over in full stacks who make some very.... """high skill""" plays while making youtube videos lamenting about the fact that reshade was taken from them and how much of an outrage it is. I would rather have the olden days of hunt where there was no ELO whatsoever and every game was a wildcard, because then you'd never know what to expect and every game had the capability of being wacky and fun instead of you having to sweat your nuts off at every opportunity.
Same thing here just in trio. I am a high 5 star, my friend is a mid 5 star and the last one is a 3 star that can barely Hit anything. We are constantly in 4,5 star lobbies with Teams that are a full Stack of 5 Stars or even some 6 Stars.
How is that fair?
Don't want to sound mean but why not just play dous if this bothers you so much?
@@albenjammin because we are 3 buddies. So we play trio.
sounds like you are complaining because you play duos vs trios and its harder? isn't that the point? that's why you get more bounty etc? new player here so im not sure i understand your comment
@@mata9270 wat? You said "I almost exclusively play duos into trios" and "having another player is a huge advantage"
There is a VERY simple way to curb the volatility of MMR, which I think is the main problem. Just put a numerical cap on how much you can gain or lose from a single match.
This would negate jumping two stars up because you got lucky on a frag throw. This would diminish the impact of taking 5 health chunks and solo necroing to derank.
My hot take on the side: encourage ranking up. Give bb payouts to 4, 5, and 6 star players at the end of each month incrementally to their rank. It'll keep them out of low lobbies.
I would rather semi full lobbies with more equal based skilled players rather than full and a wider range. I've basically been in the 3 star range at all times, never really moving after I found out each death after necro affected my MMR. I'm really not that great at the game but since I discovered it I've been really enjoying it. Each match feels so intense but can feel real bad when you see that you were killed by a prestige 15 level 100 player as someone who is just starting out.
A better idea could be making mmr half based on objective rather than only kills, this would mean players that are going on a winstreak will face other people that are more capable of putting up a fight, meanwhile people who keep losing will find themselves against lower star players until recovering their footing. (to prevent people from staying low on purpose, kills and wipes will still count towards mmr just not as much as before but noticeable)
This would make deranking extremely difficult as you would need to "lose" (return to menu from death) rather than spam necro in people's faces to tank mmr about 5 times and because this would be more objectives rather than only kills.
You could also kill people with higher stars and not be immediately thrown onto a higher level, instead escape with a bounty first to level up in mmr, it's extremely annoying to somehow kill a higher star player and be punished for it (cause it feels more like a punishment than balancing) by getting sent to high star hell. (this happened to me twice last week btw from 3 star all the way to 5 star and i am not even that good)
I have 1300h. I was everything from 2Star-6Star. In my opinion MMR isn't saying anything about Skill at all. I have MMR hidden because MMR is only affected by Kills. The only different Experience I felt during my 1000+ Hours is, that in MMR 5-6 mostly people who dont prestige anymore and sit on an amount of Hunt Dollars, where Weapon Prices dont matter play "Better == More Expensive" Weapons and Ammo types. So sure they have an advantage Loadoutwise + Camping is rewarded with high powered Weapons.
People arent good at judging their performance and it shifts a lot. Kind of like my MMR wich I am happy about. Playing after a long days work would be awful if I was in MMR as when I'm at my best. Also a good motivation was given when the mmr got visible - transparency. It's a lesser evil to make sense of why you butchered the server or got steamrolled.
This! 100% agree
I'm at 815 hours play time now, I started back in Devils Moon. I usually play with a mate who swings between 4-6 stars, but is 90% of the time at 5 stars, I swing between 3-5 stars, spending maybe 50% of the time on 4 stars and the rest on 5 stars and a tiny minority of the time on 3 (when hunt taketh)
What I have noticed more than anything, is that the closer I get to 6 stars, the more the play styles of others changes, the lobbies at or around 6 stars are VERY sweaty, the weapons that people use narrow down to a few, and everybody stops taking risks. Stalemates takes till the end of the lobby timer and a lot more players use the Headsman skin.
The game quite literally turn to shit, every time now I have gotten very close to 6 stars I have lost some love for Hunt Showdown. The game is still great, but the potential bad play styles that people usually choose not to partake in, is everywhere at the highest level
It's as simple as reintroducing the unranked mode but this time make it so you can't get random teammates from the ranked mode. An unranked contract shouldn't show stars or KDA and MMR shouldn't change as fast as it does.
I'd like to move them another menu. I like being able to check elo, so I know why a match felt really easy or really hard. It helps me keep tabs on how I'm playing and how much I'm improving, or if I'm getting worse. But I don't want a constant reminder of how I'm performing, because for some reason, even though I don't want to care, whenever I drop from 4 or 5 to 3 stars, I get really demoralized if I'm playing consistently, likely because I know I'm a high 4 low 5 star ranked player when I'm playing consistently.
That said, I actually like the mmr system in Hunt because it's volatile. It's really reassuring and encouraging to me knowing that, if I take a couple months off and last played at a 5 star elo, when I come back, it wont take long to find matches that match my elo level. In other words, it being really easy to lose mmr when I play poorly means that I don't spend a bunch of time playing out of my depth when I take a break and then return. When I take a break for a few months, I'm undoubtedly a 3 star in skill level when I come back. I'm rusty in all aspects (game knowledge, gun handling, raw mechanics, etc) and it takes me 5-10 hours to get back into the swing of things. The fact that I can naturally and easily drop ranks to my skill level while still trying to play seriously really helps me enjoy getting back into the game, unlike in games like Siege, where I can never get back into it because the hidden MMR has me at high gold/low plat for both ranked and quickplay, and I'm a mid silver at best now. I get destroyed in every match in that game, and I'll have to get steamrolled for about 30 hours straight to de-rank enough to have a balanced match. I'd much rather get steamrolled for 1-2 hours at most and then have fun in balanced matches, which Hunt's mmr system enables.
That said, I see how this is easily exploitable unfortunately, but I feel the pros outweigh the cons.
And for clarities sake, I view a balanced match as every team has a 1 in (server team count) chance of winning. And with how reactive to player performance Hunt's mmr is, at least to me, it feels pretty good.
I still don't want to see it on the front page though. 'Cause then I start caring too much about. I want it to get hidden in another menu, like where the KD is at so I can forget it exists most times. That neutralizes a lot of the hyper competitiveness problems I have.
You have to consider the KDA for the Matchmaking, i really dont care about the stars, they just show if you are having a good or a bad day and can vary this much.
BUT getting killed by a team with each hunter having a 2.5+ KDA is freaking unfair playing with a team avarage KDA of 1.5 ....
Those players should only encounter similar KDAs. I would wait 2 minutes to find a game, but the server shouldn't be filled up with those high skillers...
i think fundamentally there is a tension between different player expectations
when i play my goals are to actively learn and improve. if i die i assume personal fault first and dissect my decision-making that lead to my death and try to identify areas where different decisions will lead to better outcomes
but it seems like a lot of people take a more care-free approach and expect the game to deliver on that. theyre not completely opposed to improvement but it isnt their primary motivator, gallavanting around the map and having fair fights is. they dont like dying to someone they didnt know was there or who just completely outclass them in aim or positioning. they want messy fights with lots of exciting stray shots and a decisive climactic ending
it seems to me that hiding stars wont fix that fundamental issue of expectation, to have exciting fights with rising tension and satisfying payoffs. i think a different mode might be in order with higher time-to-kills could be a solution. one shot kills are core to the game but it honestly seems to piss a lot of people off when they die so suddenly. it shatters the immersion of being a rough n tumble bounty hunter. you die like a punk, lost everything, and get ejected fromm the game. seems people struggle with that
I completely agree with you
Higher TTK will completely ruin the balance. With mostly single shot guns you will not be able to counter a simple 2 man rush which would become a main tactic choice for everyone and destroy the tactical depth.
The issue you described is not the game issue, its a player expectation issue. If I play Hunt Showdown but expect it to be something different like Apex Legends (for example) its not the game's job to adapt, its player's job. Because every player expectations are different. The game should provide solid and balanced as much as possible gameplay which Hunt does a lot better than most of pvp games.
Some players just see the mmr system for what it isnt (ranked system) and try to exploit it for the sake of getting higher ranks. Thats the main problem that needs to be solved.
i do the same, all while flaming my team or my enemy knowing exactly what i did wrong.
The issue for me is that SBMM is a bad compromise that only makes a handful of people happy. It's meant to keep the sweats away from the casuals but it screws everyone in the middle, because you're either clubbing seals all day or getting your head kicked in by people you had no chance of beating.
6 star players make up like 2-3% of the entire player population. It wouldn't bother me if 3/100 games I saw a 6 star player. Hell even 1/10.
The problem is that instead of every once in a while getting stomped by better players, while most of the time having relatively balanced matches, the game has decided that I should be locked in the same room with the 6 stars for the benefit of the casuals.
Lol you perfectly described me in that third paragraph
I have had a pretty consistent kd of 1.3 and MMR of 4-5 stars for the past two years. In the last month I have been playing against lobbies of full six stars and kd’s of 3+. I’m not super competitive but lobbies have felt stacked against me and my friend since the event ended
Yes, I think it'd be helpful, if Stars AND KDA would be made invisible. But in the end, the only satisfying move for the majority of players would be to rework the Balance between full lobbies and skill-matching opponents. I'd rather play against less teams with less stars, than having my 4-star-lobby filled up with top-tier-solos.
Never before was vocal about it, but in my 400 hrs experience it was something like that:
Playing at 5* is a mixed bag of somewhat balanced lobbies and just 6*/5* teams massacring the competition. When i and my teammates drop to 4* it feels like a breath of fresh air with much more players having diverse loadouts and interesting situations coming out of it. Playing solo is a good way to play at 5* because you just don't get matched with 6* that played 10 or more times than you and only run high-end expensive guns because they don't have or don't feel the need to prestige their account.
Hiding the ranking is not a good idea in my opinion. For example if I've got a loss streak I really want to know if I've just having a bad day or if perhaps I ranked up before and now just have stronger opponents. And with a win streak it's the same just in the other direction.
The major problem with Hunt is that it's too easy to go up and down tiers. Name any other game where you can go from a silver lobby to a diamond lobby in a single game. They need to just add several 0's onto the end of the formula so going up and down ranks takes weeks of work and self-improvement (or self-stagnation) to see any changes at all.
Plus, you know, don't have ranked as the only possible queue you can join which also basically does not happen in any other game.
CoD is much worse dude. Win one game and you're at the top of the MMR system, then you're stuck like that for a week.
The problem is the bracket system + ELO. You get to the bottom of the next rung and it's just getting kicked in the face over and over again, because almost everyone you fight has a higher ELO than you so you just get stuck there. Every kill is worth more ELO up than each death is ELO down.
If thry remove the stars, these problems in the matchmaker would be harder to notice and get people to take seriously. That’s what transparency does for you. Otherwise problems will just lurk in the background unfixed.
Pffff, I hoped for the wedding announcement at the end of the video! Way to keep the other shoe from dropping, mate.
(good thoughts, thank you for sharing, and I struggle to understand why people see stars as something to “grind" or “climb", instead of seeking fair games where all parties will have more enjoyment in the process… which is very difficult to achieve in an equipment-based shooter with high skill ceiling)
What imho CT needs to do is give Teams MMR. And like not just calculate the average MMR of the team but rather recognize if people group together more than 10 times and treat that team as a "person" with its own MMR.
I almost exclusively play the game with my gf and we have a quite noticeable gap in skill. (Me starting to play videogames around CS 1.6 and that being my main hobby since vs her starting around 1 B.C. (= before covid)). If i play 50 rounds of Hunt a week it'll be 40 with her, the rest will be with one of three guys we play with regularly and maybe I'll sneak in one or two solo rounds a month.
We both are at a 3* MMR, while her KD is hovering around .6 while mine is at 1.25 resulting in her having less and less fun bc she gets shat on like crazy while we're matched mostly vs 2.5 to 3.5* teams.
My trouble with MMR as a solid 5 star with 1600hrs is that I can only play reliably fair/fun rounds with 1 of my 7 friends who have Hunt. The rest are all 2-4 stars, and if I play with them they get screwed and have a bad time.
I have bought Hunt for 3 other people in the past year and they have all bounced off after getting helplessly murdered.
To be honest I am prepared to derank on purpose and then stick to Springfield compact and railroad hammer and just throw the fight instead of carry against 3-star lobbies just so that I can play with my friends and they can have a good time.
on console its a Nightmare 😢
I also think they should remove the account KD from the quick view when you click on the player and have it as a per hunter KD. I think it would be more interesting
The player count in Hunt is lower than it ever has been in a long time. This is not due to the event, prior events have not had such a drastic drop as this prior event.
The MMR system is the primary system to blame. I can't get any of my friends to play because they are tired of going up against the equivalent of Michael Jordan on the court of Hunt Showdown.
MMR, KDA, etc... the underlying problem is the perception that there are numerous cheaters on Hunt and Crytek seemingly does nothing about it. People fixate on these stats because there's nothing else to point to.
The best temporary solution is to revert the changes done to MMR brackets, until playerbase growth starts again, and that is if it ever does. Come on, we all know that the players complaining about empty or partially populated lobbies are about a ~3% of the high elo playerbase that plays outside peak hours. That vocal minority is close enough to the dev team that they could make their voice heard. I know, I know, it's hard for them; but that's what playing a game with a small playerbase for a living (or playing the game as you play it for a living) gets you. I have a 21 years semi-pro beachvolley career behind me, and I wasn't allowed to go and train at the same hours that casual players were playing. It wasn't fun for them or me and someone could even get hurt.
I don't think hiding the MMR would do much besides further alienate the already alienated players. The thing with Hunt is how quickly and efficiently a veteran player can wipe a team; Hunt is a very high skill ceiling game, and hardcore, high skill dedicated players have a great advantage in game knowledge over new or casual ones. You can never mix 6 stars and 4 stars in the same lobby and call a 2 star difference something unimportant; most 6 stars are leagues apart from 4 stars, and in a fair SBMM system they would be 8 or 10 stars.
But yeah, something has to be done, and quickly; Hunt's playerbase dropped by 60% in two months. And don't come at me with event burnout and new games releasing: those happen all the time and yet this is the sharpest decline ever. The MMR change is in the same timeline as playerbase decline, it means it grinded the casual players and made the game unappealing to new ones. It also made SA and OCE servers nearly unplayable, as in those regions the MMR brackets were loose enough already, now they're non-existant. In those regions as soon as you get to 3 stars Match MMR everything goes, even a premade trio of 6 stars with 5,5 Match MMR. In NAE that happens when you get to 3,5 Match MMR, which is better, but far from ideal.
P.S.: Before anyone flames me, I'm a mid 5 star hovering around 2850 MMR, so I've been around high elo lobbies for quite sometime. But I saw two real life friends and three persons I know from Discord that were in the high 3 and low 4 stars bracket leave the game for good, and it was the MMR changes that disgruntled them.
Its not only about the MMR system, but rather about the matchmaking system.
The solution to what I see is:
1) Match the players based not only on their MMR, but on their total bounty. This is the most effective way to avoid solo with 1500 hours in the game being pushed into the full newbie lobbie with their first-second games ever. Because after 1500 of hours in the game like Hunt, you accuire certain game-based skills that may help you survive and win even if you are bad at shooting;
2) Include the headshot ratio to KD into the MMR calculator. Because the higher your MMR, the higher the chance that you will have a short fight with first-shot headshots instead of long fights with tagging, healing, repositioning, etc.
3) Re-work solo necromancer. In its current state, it allows getting up 5 times to be killed by a 3-star player, which reduces your MMR significantly, thus allowing the MMR abuse, so to say. Solo revive should be, as you said, *a second chance*. Not a third, fourth and fifth chance. Let Solos revive themselves once and/or within a limited timeframe (you can get up in 60 seconds, then your hunter dies). It will increase the value of your life and of your descisions, and will reduce the MMR-abuse possibility.
4) Completely split Ranked MMR matchmaking, and full random with no skill-based matchmaking.
I believe, these changes are not the most difficult in terms of implementation, though I believe these will be effective.
I cannot believe that basing the MMR on KD was not mentioned even once!
SBMM is trash in general, but lately I've been noticing lots of 3/4 star players with huge stats. Never used to see people with 1.6-2.0 k/d until you hit 5 star, so that tells me that there are probably a lot of people deranking on purpose to get easy games.
I think that a good way to introduce mmr would have been with a pseudo ranked mode were your mmr would change and you would be paired with people that have the same mmr than you and a different matchmaking were you would go against anyone who choosed to play like this, your mmr would not change and it was your choice to get against every mmr
90% solo here with around 1.6k hours - agree there is an issue with solo vs trios. I dislike KDA and stars and try to ignore them but it’s a challenge. This can effect my play style in that I feel encouraged to take less risks in close range and feel rewarded for sniping. I would welcome the removal of visible stars and KDA to reiterate the focus on playing hunt for hunt without distraction.
A few ideas I’ve had for a long time:
* Remove star visibility in main menu to reduce obsession and toxicity.
* Widen the point gap between 3 and 5 star so it’s not so easy to swing between them quickly.
* Make kills and deaths equal in MMR point gain as contrasted with 4 kills equaling 1 death rn.
* Stricter matchmaking pairings so 3 star teams are never in the same lobbies as 5-6 star teams, including having partial lobbies.
* Only allow players to move up in stars, to prevent downrank abuse.
* Extract with bounty influence MMR.
* K/D heavily influence MMR gain/loss (ie 3.0 KD is 3x multiplier for gaining MMR so high skill players meet their true rank faster).
* IP/MAC address track player accounts to prevent/ban smurfing.
* Offset disparity between star differences in invite teams by placing stacking loadout cost limits on the higher star player (IE a 6 star player in a 3 star invite team is only allowed dual combat axes and flashbangs) , allowing them to show off their skill in a wider variety of ways other than just seal clubbing with Mosin Snipers.
* Quickplay MMR being separated from Bounty Hunt MMR.
I was thinking about this last night ...needs a change to sweaty with this mmr I want a gamemode where mmr don't matter so its more fun...like a team deathmatch 😊
People begged years to see their ELO score.. so crytek added the star system.
If they remove it again, people will start to cry and complain..
Honestly.. the game doesnt have ranked mode, the game will never be competitive..
Remove stars, remove KDA, rework prestige system.. lets have fun playing the game..
I always assumed that quick play didn't affect your MMR in bounty hunt. Mainly because your KD is tracked separately for QP.
I dont remember where he said it, but mr. fifield said that the MMR is intended to on average create fair games; the issue is that how its presented it looks like a ranking system where being higher rank is better. People chase ratings, even though they have no reason to. They get sucked into really desperatly caring about the stars because theyve been coniditoned by other games to do so.
My team comp 3, 4, 5. Every other team comp on server 5,5,6. You just can't convince me that's not bugged or broken. It's consistent as well, not a once or twice thing but to the point where we are hesitant to play these days.
Set a limit for how much a players MMR can rise or fall in a single match. This stops the volatility- and if youre genuinely doing "better" consistently, or as it may feel for some of us- Worse, youll slowly but surely shift to where you should be, without swinging rapidly all around constantly.
2- Id argue to slightly change how MMR is gained/lost between player/enemy interactions. 1 value for if you killed an opponent. 2nd value for if an opponent killed you. 3rd value for if youve both put each other down at least once. And thats it. Have the "value" of each vary depending on whatever your MMR difference is, but thats it, 3 possibilities.
Both of these would serve to prevent wild swings in MMR, the 2nd also serves to stop people from using necro (or even help from a bount carrier) to rapidly de-rank. The 2nd also helps in situations where maybe youve been downed by someone, and then get revived by a buddy- only to instantly be downed again. Your skill hasnt rapidly changed- you just got picked up in a shitty situation. Or any other number of similar situations
...and when are you getting married?
The need to increase the MMR gap between stars. Currently the vast majority (>70% of the player base) are sitting a stone’s throw away from low 6 Stars in terms of MMR.
Widen the gap, currently there seems to only be 4 possible skill levels, 3 star, 4 star 5 star, and 6 star.
If they increase the MMR required to shift from one rank to the other, there might be more nuanced skill improvements within each rank on your way to the next, instead of just boiling down to “Oops I threw a frag bomb that wiped an entire team, instant rank up”
If you look at Hunt’s MMR curve and scale it linearly, it literally looks like a needle point, almost nobody is 2-3 star, and almost nobody is high 6 star, everybody is clumped into 4 and 5 star which makes each game a coin toss as to whether you’re going to steamroll, get steamrolled, or actually have a fun and engaging firefight.
You get it! Bellcurves are historically a bad distributions tool for MMR systems. Especially, when you place everyone at what "appears" to be an "acceptable rank" to the average player. Right now, we essentially have 2 matchmaking pools. 1-3 are new players and people who genuinely don't know how to play the game & 4-6 is literally everyone else.
@@roscosimmons-shorts8050 Bell curves work when formed naturally like in CSGO but when your ranks are all piled up into a tiny MMR bracket and you still don’t do anything to fix it I’m just left wondering what the fuck Crytek is doing with their time.
The current MMR is flat shit, period. Go on four or five game streak with 5+ kills and hit 4 start. Then next round you die to low end 3 Star and you drop back down to 3 Star. I almost always play solo, I am something like nearly 300+ kills ahead of my death rate. Yet, somehow I cannot seem to bump up to 4 star and stay there long enough that the wrong death drops right back down. And before someone says not enough time, I have over 2k hours. The game has many problems but fixing MMR and getting a full game review like rainbow six siege and PUBG is also necessary for the game to grow.
Longer reply:
They have to:
-make brackets a bit wider, so games are less volatile
-make it so only first death/kill per person affects MMR, still affects KD as usual.
-reduce the solo modifier AND give option to disable it entirely if youwant to. This shouldn't harm anybody, but bring a few more solos into 5 star range if they so choose. MIGHT make it a bit wonkier regarding full teams.
-revert wider MMR ranges now that each bracket itself is wider (think only 4 star within 4 star range)
I think the MMR system's only real 3 issues are the affect of soul survivor, the exact number not being shown (Ik PC can check online but that's not an option for console) and how easily changed it is.
There is a big difference between a "I just got my 5 star for the 1st time" and "I had 3 bad matches now im a 5 star" for play.
For the longest time Dota 2 hid their MMR ranking - but people constantly clamor and demand it. It's an obsession, like you say, to quantify one's skill level and place. To measure "progress," even though we're far more likely to plateau than have a steady curve which is just frustrating.
Anwyay, glad to see you understand stats reasonably well and invoke probability. There's nothing stopping a team of 6 stars from having a bad day, and matchmaking can't magically cause good matches if there aren't the players there. Obfuscating this data might actually help people get past how arbitrary all of this is in a game that's not truly competitive.
The matching system has a bigger problem than MMR, which is that the game matches you with people who use similar weapons with you. If you play sniper, the probability of there being another sniper in the game increases much more. If you play a hunting bow or crossbow, you are more likely playing against people using them. Yesterday I played 10 matches and in 5 of them, I played weapons such as vetterli and winfield without scopes, and the people on my team and the people against me were using rifles without scopes, like me. I played hunting bow in the other 5 matches and more than half of the people on my team were using hunting bows or crossbow, and in 4 of those 5 games I fought people using hunting bows and crossbows. The same thing happens when I play sniper. They need to fix this before the MMR issue.
Me and a buddy of mine said it from day one: Hide the MMR!! Of course it needs to be fixed first but there have been so many hunt sessions ruined for me because of people complaining every single match about something being unfair and it literally made me quit some sessions and it made me fucking mad about it. People really should try to have fun and not look for an excuse after every single match. Many of us jump all over the place with the MMR because it is the way it is. "Getting headshot running 300m? Has to be 6 star mosin spitzer sweatlord! Wallbanged? Has to be unfair matchmaking!" Like people get actually mad about it and start screaming and insulting other players just based on their star rating....... and it started IMMEDIATELY after the star rating has been introduced. I am 100% with you on this one, I would absolutely welcome an active, but hidden mmr system.
I tend to play soul survivor formerly known as quick play as warm up. At least I will often play that mode until I win a match before moving onto playing bounty mode. You make a good point, if Hunt is not meant to focus on ranking then should it even be displayed to the players. But I do think stats are important to individual players. In a game that's made up of random hunters/legendary hunters your identity as a player within the game may be strongly associated with the representation of your skill level and your player name.
Mmr has other factors not just kills/deaths on hunters. Assists and teammate kills will raise your mmr. Also just extracting with or w/o bounty raise it (possibly tied to xp earned).
I once hit a dude with a rifle then blew myself with a grenade by sloppy throw.
That's literally all I did in this match.
I gained a star.
I've been 3 stars forever and I guess I'm just confused as to the proposed goal of "SUPER REFINED ULTRA COMPETITIVE MATCHMAKING" like if you play against people who're better then you most of the time you're fucked (either you get ambushed and killed before the fight can happen OR you get juked / outmaneuvered / out-teched and killed), this would be fine if the play space was more chaotic or if the random enemies / conditions were more prevalent or could be adjusted somehow but as they can't your only reward for improving your play is the knowledge that you will experience more general difficulty more of the time, which isn't a great motivator.
my biggest problems coming in to this game as a newer player was i was facing people who are 5+ prestiges (even a prestige 100 once) or people with 1000s of hours over me. im just hitting level 60 ish and still face people who have more than x5 my time played. its becoming increasingly hard to enjoy the game when everyone I run into just has a huge time and acknowledge advantage over me.
imo time should factor into match making ontop of mmr.
Two thoughts to add on this topic, one being a serious comparison and the other an obvious thing, but I still feel it is worth pointing out.
1: most other games don't display MMR like Hunt does. Other games show rank, but hide the MMR, while Hunt is permanently holding the MMR straight into your face every time you go into the lobby or watch the post match screen, Hunt presents the MMR in a way that feels like it is a ranked system while it actually is not. Since there are no ranks in the game by itself, the MMR is what people naturally gravitate to. It serves as a statement like it is a rank in other games.
In other games you say "I am gold/master/elite/whatever", in Hunt you say "I'm a 4 Star".
While in the practical way the Hunt MMR is not a ranked system, it very much does the same on the psychological and social level.
2: let's point out again that Crytek is making an active decision with the way MMR is implemented, it is not something every game has naturally. MMR exists because Crytek decided so, it is shown in easily understandable 1-6 Stars because Crytek decided so, the made you look at it everywhere because they decided so. What I am trying to say is that the issue is handcrafted. It is not a temporary inconvenience like a bug or a bad balancing decision. It is something the devs want as a part of Hunt. It is on them to properly handle and moderate it, and I think they are handling it very slowly. The most noticeable change they made was when they began forcing everyone into SBMM without refining the system at all. This was 1 or even 2 years ago by now, since then they did not change anything about it as far as I am aware.
I cant speak for other regions but in OCE/Australian lobbies it feels like there isnt any matchmaking at all. Its common enough that it feels like as a 3/4 star squad you almost always match against squads composed of 5/6 star players, at least one in each match of often every squad other than your own being much higher ranked. I dont know if this is due to the skill range of the region or the low playerbase but its rare to get a match where it feels even remotely fair as an mmr 3/4.
Matchmaking on low population servers is disabled at all or at least it is disabled if there are not enough players. Whatc my last video called why you shouldn't play on ru server. It's unfair. You get matched against monsters. I bet this happens on OCE too.
Hey. It's me. HuntBRO. I totally agree with your number 5 and I have to say I have been thinking this since the MMR and KD were shown in the first place.
Having those stats visible will inevitably make people look at them and think about them. All the time.
Nobody should have statistics in their mind when they are going into a match but in reality, many people do exactly that.
What does that mean?
It means that the mere display of those stats is going to influence players behavior. And that leads to weird, shifted gameplay of hunt and for me: less fun.
Why?
Too many people care about their MMR and K/D for that matter and it shows in their play. If you have a range of stars and categorize people in brackets, people are going to want to be higher. That is, many people, but not all. This leads to problems of K/D farmers, who are everywhere (I swear!). People fumbling with their MMR using Soul Survivor. And what is most annoying to me: overcautious players who fear of losing their precious MMR or lowering their K/D.
Don't get me wrong: Nothing against players who prefer a cautious playstyle no matter their MMR. But there are loads of players whose behavior ingame is directly influenced by their MMR star rating. And that should not be the case.
My MMR fluctuates between 3 and 5 constantly. So I get to play with many different kinds of players. Having 2k hours on my clock I can tell that generally speaking (of course just simplified) MMR 5 random team mates are mostly very fearful and overly cautious players who very rarely take any risk. BORING.
MMR 4 players seem to have a much more relaxed attitude to playing a computer game (crazy isnt it ?) and therefore risk shit in game which leads to fun and memorable plays.
I'd rather play with some 3 or 4 star dudes who are willing to try something, than with a MMR 5 sweatlord who extracts after he snuck a kill, to farm his K/D or one that stays 200m away all the time and runs away from every fight because he fears being shot.
I also think the MMR is in no way a good representation of a players personal skill. Hunt: Showdown is not an arena shooter where kills are the only thing that matters, but the MMR system display makes it look that way and certainly many players treat it that way. That to me is a huge downgrade in the overall quality of Hunt gameplay.
So I know the main problem here are the players. People just care too much about numbers and ratings. That's why hiding the stats would help a lot in my opinion.
And in the long run, Crytek could come up with a new MMR system that is not only based on kills vs deaths.
As with many pvp games MMR systems are mostly simplistic and pretend to give accuracy over time or amount of data collected. But in reality, I never felt, that that is accurate at all.
Take any team-based sport as an example. Lets got with football (no, not american football for now).
Various stats are tracked for each individual player. There are certain roles on the fields and positions.
Judging a hunt player by kills vs deaths solely is like saying a football player is bad when he didnt shoot a goal.
No football team consists of 11 strikers. And even if they would.
Going back to hunt, the gameplay is complex aswell. Again, this is not an arena shooter, where we compete against each other even within the team. There are various tasks at hand and many things and tactics that come into play when it comes down to the chances of winning a fight and getting the bounty.
That being said, none of that is in any way tracked by the MMR system. Right now it is ignoring most of the things that happen in game (which btw could be tracked), and it strips everything down to the mere fact of making kills.
Anyway I just realized that I have written way more than I intended.
Great video as always.
I would rather they tighten the spread and take longer to fill a lobby or just half fill it. Being the underdog on nearly every match has put friends off playing. The other week as a pair of three stars against trio four stars was pretty rough
Na. I want a full game.
If some 6 star kills me... oh well. Though sometimes I kill the 6bstar hunter with weapons that are worth more than my entire hunter build!
@@binnieb173 yeah everyone's milage is gonna vary but usually I find 6 star servers quite boring as most of them seem to camp in a bush 150 meters away and just snipe
That's just not true at all. I've been a 5/6 star player since they introduced the mmr system and on average people are so aggressive up here. They also just know how to rotate and make good decisions and hit all their shots. The people who play passive in the higher mmr are the ones that are just barely in there and are about to get bumped back down to 4 star.
I see the kids who used to be in the top of the leaderboards in our games and they literally run towards every shot they hear
@@ericjames4034 I am sure that happens too it's just not been my experience of 5-6* lobbies
What's interesting is that I had a big chunk of games in which lobbies weren't even full, like it was us and the other team only. It makes no sense given "full server > balanced mmr" criteria.
Ive mentioned before, the massive clump of 4 star players need spreading out so the mmr number being tweaked. so that the high 4 stars go into the 5 star bracket and the lower 4 star go into the 3 star bracket more the same with 3 and 5 star. that way there are more player in each bracket making it mor likely to get paired with them, rather than having a group of 5 stars getting paired with mainly 6 stars due to prioritising full lobbies.
soul survivor should be completely separate mmr to bounty hunt to stop abusing it
The number one complaint I hear is that high four Star players start getting insta wrecked the moment they hit 5 stars. Your solution is the opposite of what people want.
@paddypibblet846 I think you miss understand then. Because if they wanted the opposite that would clump more people into the same star bracket and matches would be more unfair but just give them the same rating..
I do agree that 4 stars get wrecked by 5 star lobbies, but I see that as a different issue than just the players are alot better.
@HomeReel this may sound crazy but I think the MMR and KDA obsession is largely caused by the lack of purpose or progression in the game.
What’s the objective in this game? In Tarkov it’s to amass supplies and work through vendor missions to build up your stockpile of rare gear. In DMZ (ick) it’s to unlock guns, skins, weapons slots, etc. You're always working toward something new that you can show off to others for boasting rights. In Hunt there’s nothing like this, just MMR and KDA, so that’s what people focus on.
Wild idea. Lets have a mode without MMR, so we can have a mixed bag of opponents. Oh wait...
My main problem that my 3star teammate will do the most incomprehensible thing imaginable, while the enemy 3star headshots me with a Winfield from 100 meters away. I feel that whenever I drop down to 3star I get assigned the most improbable freaks. Like I'm not great, but I'm not that awful to deserve these pairings
I would make the following changes:
1- I would stretch the rank of each star: Make it not so easy to go down and up in rank. This would make you find players who really belong to that range, because today seeing a 3-star player can only be a 5-star with a bad streak.
2- That there are no benefits or debuffs to play in Solo, BUT it would give some simple advantages such as some free accessories and tools in its load-out, such as a secured first aid kit, a stamina syringe, perhaps some decoy, etc. This would make it so that those who play alone continue playing with people of their level and not screw with players who are of lower rank, but at the same time it would compensate for them not having to spend so much money on equipping a hunter who will probably die.
3- Finally, I would stop focusing so much on creating disgusting hunter models (they are really ugly, there are few models that really look like cowboys/hunters) and I would focus more on improving the marketing of this game, because it has very few people involved. The base grows in events of people who already played it and when they finish it falls again.
I'm a bad first person shooter player, I'm bad at Hunt: Showdown, I have 114 hours as of the time writing this, and my friends have similar hours. Sometimes I feel like I have a great grasp of Hunt, I'll play solo and usually roll the lobby as a 3-4 star player. Then I queue with my friends who are significantly better at FPS games than me and understand the concepts of hunt significantly less. Due to the patience of them and their innate FPS knowledge to wait, not peek the same angles multiple times in a row (seems simple but you'd be surprised how often my dumbass repeat peeks) he has made it to 6 star once, and can almost NEVER leave 5. So when we go to play the quality of the players we fight is quite skewed. In frontal fights where both parties see each other first HE usually wins for us, but when it comes to Hunt specific knowledge like Compounds, angles, tricks, common hiding spots, and the perfect grenade angles that is where we REALLY lose. My friends can keep up in the FPS category with the higher stars but not in the game knowledge because we just haven't played long enough to burn the 1000 hour+ window recognition or creaky floorboard pinpoint headshot down to our brains yet.
I feel bad when we get 3 stars even though I also feel like we belong there, because the hyperbolic time-chamber that is NEVER leaving 5 star has made us too bad to compete in 5 star, and too good to compete in 4 and below without it just being a stomp. It is GENUINELY problematic when I can effectively kill people in Hunt knowing they are actually the better player than me but I knew the compound better (spoiler, most people are better than me) And it's not one of those things where I get one kill and go "yup I made it boys, Hunt has a problem I killed someone" It's more like, my aim is tacky on a good day, and on the average day I can't hit the broadside of a barn.
The point is my issues with Hunt is simply that the MMR difference in players, genuinely isn't a ladder it's a cliff. The quality of the players moving up ANY star is so dramatic to the last it's very impressive but quite problematic, a half-star system might help for like 3.5 star lobbies etc, but I really don't think you can fix it. Hunt is a game with so much knowledge demand that time-sinking into the game and learning the fundamentals is really what makes someone a high star player. That in mind, hiding your MMR I don't think would really help; I never die in a high star lobby and go "oh it's because he was 5 star and I'm a 3 star loser" it's more like I get wall banged 3 times in the head and go "Either they're cheating or they've played this game so long they know the floorboards I'm stepping on like their own house."
I spent time reducing my MMR because fighting against 5-6 stars all the time is exhausting and not fun. I may feel differently if we had other game modes and private lobbies where I can enjoy the game how I want and not get so frustrated. This frustration leads to burnout, especially after an event.
Wait is the MMR fucked? Since when?.... I thought I was in a rut.. I honestly think the MMR in this game has always been one of the best MMRs in games. I'm probably in a rut.. but dude... the game feels fair... people need to just accept sometimes you are bad sometimes you do good. Crying is not going to get you anywhere, but you can check what you are doing wrong make corrections, die, repeat. Learn and Adapt.
Great video Home as always, I agree with 1 to 3 but point 4 could be messy and I like how the matchmaking works right now its one of the best to my experience, and 5 I actually enjoy looking to how bad or how good I'm doing against my friends we find it fun and compete with each other see who has more kills and stuff like that so that is a no for me. With a Hidden MMR I cant know where I am and l would lose that fun.
I'm a low 4 star high 3 star usually, with my recent rut I'm probably low 3 star but I don't actually care.. I'm still having fun, stars usually just make me go "oh wow I'm a 4 I'm owning" and that's it.
Players need to learn to relax and not take it so serious its not the end of the world to lower your rank its a game there is worst things in life.
can't agree more
Big issue me and my friends are seeing among our bigger circle, is that there are 5/6 star players using 3 star players as their 'buffer' to get into lower star matches. Or we have a full 3/4 star team doing things you only ever see in 5/6 star lobbies. So Smurfing has become a pretty crappy alternative game mode for some people.
I'm effectively a strictly solo player for two reasons... One being that the vast majority of the playerbase is dogwater at the game and when paired up with randoms they are usually more of a detriment to my gaming experience than they are a benefit. Even most 5 star players are legitimately bad at the game. The other being I do enjoy winning those 1v3 situations. Being a 6/5 star player, and as a solo at that, with over 4k hours, I've never felt like the MMR system was bad or matching me against players I have no business being in a game against. I can count on one hand the amount of times I've seen a 3/4 star team in my lobbies. While yes, it may happen, it certainly does not happen often. The vast majority of my games as a 6/5 star solo are against full 5 star or a mix of 5/6 star teams.
I hid my mmr so I don’t have to think about my stats and I’ve had a much more positive gameplay experience when I don’t have to worry about my rank, even though I usually end up in 5-6 star lobbies because of my friends and my skill. If you don’t see it, it makes the game more fun. Me and my friends have been complaining about the silly matchmaking of hunt for years lol
I’ve bugged people with this take before, but here I go. I’m an old boomer of a gamer. Eliminate the MMR. This game is meant to be hard and the law of averages suggest you will most likely run into 3-4 stars if you are dropped into lobbies at random. I’ve been playing war Thunder a lot and it has no formal MMR system and I can do incredible well at certain games, while as a new player, I never did well early on. Or at least make a hidden MMR system for the bottom 15% of players and brand new players. I remember games before these systems and I don’t remember being forever dunked on, but I do remember watching myself go from being bad to better as I played.
I’ve said this before, and I’ll say it again the Bayou thrives on the spirit that plays for fun and enjoyment the player that chases the stars and the numbers on the screen for KD are the ones that starve the bayou
SOLUTION: First off its not a complete MMR problem. The real problem is boring matches all together. When players log in and finally get in a game the game should be fun. You waited all that long time loading and searching for a team, long load times just to get into an empty server or a game with low engagement of other players. Two bounty boss games should only be for a full server. If the server doesn't fill up there should be one boss. Second, make it so players can only see their own MMR rating because that is another way players quit out of games making it more difficult for match making. Those two changes alone will fix player engagement, you will have quicker matches that are more fun.
I really like having a relatively transparent MMR system.
I can think of several multiplayer games that had hidden MMR values (that were often detached from your rank) from games like League of Legends and Overwatch.
I know those are ranked, competitive games but it was still endlessly frustrating.
I think I just want the MMR system to be a little less volatile. It seems like my games can violently swing from doing really great one night to getting stomped the next.
Just last night I had a roster of 9 leveled up hunters. One session later and I have 3 left and only one got a win. That's maybe a poor anecdote but ah well.
Whole-heartedly agree with you on solo matchmaking. It's not supposed to be fair. I think attempts to balance it might actually be harming the playing experience for the average player.
Ah those good old days without MMR... The game felt unique 😢
I feel like MMR should be much more closely tied to both K/D and overall Bounty score. I know some people will try and argue that you can have high bounty and a poor K/D and not be the greatest at the game, but a player with a million bounty didn't get that bounty by not playing the game - even if they're a dedicated rat player, who actively chooses to disengage from fights and tries their hardest to snatch bounties over kills, that's still a valid playstyle because at the end of the day, they still won. They still got the bounty, meaning they still beat everyone else in the lobby.
Bounty is already fully visible to anyone who looks at the "last match" team screen, it's already something tracked by the game and it's something me and my Hunt buddy use as an actual metric for balance. I hover around upper 4 star to low 5 star, and if don't play for a while, like say a week or two, my MMR is set down to 3 stars, without fail. This means that the MMR system inherently isn't accurate - when I take a break and come back and get absolutely merked by a player who is also at "3 stars", that doesn't actually mean anything - when their bounty, however, is more than 4x my own, that definitely doesn't mean nothing. Bounty is very directly correlated to time spent in the game, and time spent *effectively* in the game.
Bounty alone obviously wouldn't be an entirely fair and accurate measuring stick for MMR team placement (smurf accounts being the biggest issue), but paired primarily with K/D and secondarily with a more "current" MMR (like how the game currently only seems to be influenced by the past few matches), it would feel much, much fairer. There is no perfect MMR or star rating or K/D to chase - it's just number go up. If you're playing well, and getting kills and/or bounty tokens, your bounty goes up, and that is meaningful information.
One of those people who has and does abuse both solo rez and QP scumming here. In the group of hunters I play with matchmaking and MMR is a hotly contested topic and something we have pondered the solution to. My opinion on the solution is as follows.
1. First Hunt Showdown has got a stagnant player pool consisting of sweat lord lifers 5-6*, loyal casuals high 3* to low 5*, and 1-3* who will never stick around past six months. That last demographic is actually what's hurting the player base the most. Those players would organically wind up in 4* and the best of that crop would ease into 5-6* while the more casuals would float 3-4*. Crytek needs to address the hemorrhaging player count either by going Free to play or finding some other incentive to keep players.
2. This is in direct line with issue 1. Get rid of MMR all together or hollow it out and rebuild it from the ground up. By basing the new MMR off of two things K/D and overall total kills. I have seen a million times a supposed 4* with a 1.60 K/d demolish a team of also 4* with a K/d of .90-1.15. Coincidentally a lot of casuals and semi casuals float K/d around .90-1.50 and scummers and smurfs have a substantially higher K/d. This kills two birds with one stone because A. Solo rez and QP abuse is a non issue, and newer players are more likely to stick around when they aren't getting violated ever other match. You shouldn't have to spend two days blowing out your MMR for a 30-40% wins for the night that alone is a red herring that so many players will spend that much time for a evening of fun