High Elves in the Old World
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- čas přidán 15. 01. 2024
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You can take a prince on a star dragon or moon dragon without taking caldor honour, therefore no impetus. If you want to take a prince on sun dragon (don't know why you would) you MUST take the caldor honour. Easy mistake to make, hope that clears it up.
This. All the Calador honour does is unlock access to sun dragons and the ability to join dragon princes, both of which are impetuous already.
Steve, you and the guys are absolutely killing it with the Old World content. I appreciate everything you have done for Fantasy, Thank you.
I really like that all of the province specific units are equally unique in function and sound pretty viable.
To be fair… lothern seaguard had been crap for edition after edition. They were always in a bad spot and this time around they will be useful.
I really hope so, always wanted to make a Lothern-themed list, but it was really hard to justify taking them over archers or spearmen. Really glad they get the sea helm ability from 8th for per default now (also gives them a bit more of an identity rather just being spearmen with a bow), paying 100pt just for that back then felt pretty bad.
yes. Theres no pont in using normal spearmen. They should have been heavy armour to make them count.
They were great in 5th! (but yeah, it's been a while)
@@robbyv101 kinda… but they cost too much comparatively to the rest of core.
They still aren't very good, you're paying a lot of points for a S3 T3 5+ save unit that only puts out 11 attacks even when charged and will strike last against I3 or higher when that happens. 20 with full command and shields are 257 points. They also can't take shield wall so they don't have that advantage like the basic unit. 20 Spears w/ Full command Shieldwall and a detachment of 5 Archers is 259 and is much more flexible. Or alternatively take Silver Helms/Reavers for your core allocation and instead spend more on the better elite infantry.
So happy GW managed to restrain themselves on the Swordmasters... oh, wait...
Its fascinating how his takes in this video vs. playing games have massively shifted. Lothern Seaguard were panned by the time he got to his Tier list (live stream), and Swordsmen were seen as "Not quite there". Because Grinding combats seem to be the most impactful thing in the game.
High Elves are looking really good in this edition. Definitely a combined arms army.
Seaguard with the Razor Standard for some armour bane goodness in an all comers list.
Swordmaster with arcane banner for magic resistance 4, against chaos or Beastmen it means they will have to be taken out in CC.
Phoenix Guard are a brick/anchor unit.
White lions, small unit of 10 with a noble taking the Chracian honour to move through cover and flank charge dwarfs, black orcs and chaos warriors.
Dragon Princes, the drakemaster is essentially a minor hero, WS5 3A at I5, plus 50pts of magic items can tool him up to be a beast. Sword of might plus seed of rebirth…
Magic is all deadly and good, Prince/Noble with Loremaster or Warden of Saphery I10 Sword of Hoeth… 🎉🎉🎉
Page 108 on magic res
‘Note that this special rule is not cumulative. If two or more models in a unit have this special rule, use the highest modifier.’
So you’d get the Mr 3 from the banner
Swordmasters can only take 50pts of Banners. Is your BSB in the unit with the banner of Arcane Protection?
I played High and Dark elves. In 6th Ed, ASF was really not that big of a cheese issue. My Spearman might hit but they still had to wound. And since most other armies were T3 or higher, I wasn't wounding that much. And they didn't mod AS. A friend of mine was playing beast men and was complaining that he was going to have to play another HE player who had a 50+ block of Spearman. I pointed out that a head on charge from his maxed out minotaur unit would break that block with impact and stomp attacks alone. He looked at me confused. Told him to refresh himself with the minotaur rules, and then read up on the units special rules. He gave me a air fist bump from across the room when he broke the unit in one round.
This HE player was telling me I was making a mistake not have the huge Spearman block ... told him to tell me how his unit feels after the beast man fight.
Quite happy with this version of HE overall
Magic dominance is real but not overpowered, you can get a level 4 mage on a sweet mount with 5 spells that re-rolls a single cast... also High magic is absolutely bonkers
Aaaaand between your core/lore signature spells you can choose to either delete a magic item or make casting harder by 2
Prince on star dragon is probably one of the scariest units in the game tbh, maxed out you can get a 2+/5+/5++ or you can go hunting and take him on a lion chariot with a sweet monster slaying great weapon that strikes at initiative
Sea Guard seem like an amazing core unit with the ability to deal damage in both phases and do a cheeky reform after standing and shooting ANYTIME you get charged
(put a razor banner on a big blob for that sweet armorbane 2 on both your bows and spears)
Swordmasters are probably one of the scariest combat units since you often get to strike before your opponent (even when charged) with pseudo killing blow magical great weapon
Everything else seems pretty well rounded as well and can find a place
Only thing I'm not quite hot on is the prevalence of impetuous on sun dragons and dragon princes.... definitely fluffy but incredibly annoying to play around
Hopefully we get a dragon based playstyle in the arcane journal that allows us to reign in those fiery tempers a bit ;)
impetuous is unplayable. Big mistake hows been ruled.
@@mireadur I wouldn’t say completely unplayable but you get relegated to purely a countercharge role from the sides of your main lines, or you have to lean into it and treat it as frenzy essentially
It’s most annoying on dragon princes because their charge range is ludicrously ling but if you are allowed to choose the movement type for dragons (6” walk vs 10” fly) you can work around it a bit
Even saying that though dragon mages are super meh imho… not nearly fighty enough for the points and you’ll only ever run hammerhand on them because of what they incentivize
Blood of calendor noble is the most annoying since it’s the only way to get a dragon mounted BSB and they will always have impetuous regardless of the dragon you ride
so the case for Sea Guard honour is that unit rule of Lothern Sea Guard rule Naval Discipline says that it doesn't work if it's joined by a character without it, so now you can bunker mage there without losing this rule with extra spice in the form of Rallying Cry.
Ithilmar Weapons should have applied to any weapons Elves can wield. I feel like some things in this edition don't make sense for Elves, but I'll just have to wait and see how they actually play. But there's some stuff that's just flat out not great.
I’m think it’s pretty safe to say that that could lead to some pretty wacky combinations if it included magical weapons, but yeah I kinda agree that it’s a bit if a filler rule except on shadow warriors and sisters of avelorn
Overall I think HE are in a pretty good spot honestly, we’ve got some absolutely disgusting units and high magic is a crazy powerful lore (especially when you get a single reroll to cast per wizard)
Alith Anar would firstly not be impressed with you saying he is from Naggaroth, and his entourage of Shadow Warriors would be unimpressed with being called Shades. Tut tut Steve, you need to read up on your Nagarythe history :P
(Seriously though, some great books in the Black Library on Alith Anar)
Oh? 👀 Any recommendations?
It's his own fault for being to sneaky for anyone to really know where he's from!
the Sundering Trilogy @@christopherclayton5500
Losing ASF across the board was a positive change IMHO. I played HE from very late 6th edition all the way to the End Times, and I hated how HE were seen as a cheesy army for sweatbeards. The lists I wrote weren't even that good because I couldn't afford to buy all the new hotness back then, It was just a bunch of spearelves, silver helms, some white lions and phoenix guard with a mage, and maybe some dragon princes with a mounted lord or a lord on a star dragon. You definitely could make some degenerate lists but the only reason to do that is if you were at a tournament or playing against another degenerate. ASF across the board did help alleviate any mistakes you made on positioning though so there's that.
True. Elite elf units basically still have it anyway in regards to the swordmasters and Phoenix guard. I can see situations with elves where you just match up super close so people can’t make long charges for the int bonus 😂
Do you remember the Seaguard list from Storm of Chaos? It was ridiculously broken.
@@jamesy52 took that once as a result of my friend bringing a “friendly” slayer army from the same book… next game he took DE and I took the seaguard list. Shot his level 4’s unit and caster off the board and then continued to do the same from turn 1.
I felt in 6th edition a few factions were "face-roll" easy. While other armies such as the dark elves needed a pretty good player just to stand a chance
Hopefully the synchronicities available are balanced across all factions this time. No more banner of sorcery/battle banner brokenness lol
I'm a bit confused about the very strong dislike of impetous by many youtubers and commenters. At least for the HE list, it seems like all the units that have it you want them to get into combat asap. If you can charge, there's a 50% chance you have to, but you can still choose the target. Obviously it requires playing around the rule a bit, but you would have to be the situation where your unit can charge only 1 enemy unit that it really doesn't want to charge, or a charge it's likely to fail which will waste it's move.
I'm just theorising, but it seems like dragon princes would combine well with seaguard screen: anyone charging the seaguard unit will have to deal with a charge from the DP next turn, and the seaguard can reduce their frontage when recieving the charge to allow the DPs to charge next turn. In any case, i'm really curious to hear from anyone who's used them how bad it really was. I guess it only needs to go really poorly once for people to stop taking them.
Thanks for the breakdown! Just fyi - I believe special rules stack unless stated otherwise, so Armor Bane stacks. Arrows of Isha (AP -1 and Armor Bane 1) plus Bow of Avelorn (Armor Bane 1) are AP -1 and Armor Bane (2). So 6s to wound are a gnarly -3 to a save!
Also, I initially had the same feelings about Swordmasters vs. Phoenix Guard (where did my 4+ ward go 😭), but if you do the math - assuming Swordmasters charge, PG will usually win that (or at worst tie). The extra rank of attacks is huge!
Also, what's kinda nuts about the flying chariot is it might be the only Heavy Chariot I've seen so far with swiftstride!
Also, I'm being silly (sorry for the repeated comments) - dragons aren't inherently impetuous! Only if you take the caledor honour (or the dragon mage). Princes and Nobles can be mounted on a dragon without it!
@@Na_bro_leonI will miss the 4+ ward save... Especially when buffed by the High Magic lore ability.
But yeah... It was way too good 😅
You guys rock!
Welp... High elves seem to get the best elite infantry in the game. Sword masters and White lions. That's bananas. Crazy that the Sword masters get WS 6. I know it's historically accurate but other units that did to got toned down too. And Sea Gaurd.
High elves are going to be bonkers again.
This is the edition of prolonged combat, elves are 2 to 3 times more expensive per mini for the same T and save. they have their ups, and downs. Way to early to call it i think.
There are a lot magic missiles and templates in the game. Swordmasters are susceptible to both with only T3 and a 5+ save. They are also very expensive.
@@MoonyPoet Magic Resistance 1 might help a bit with that at least. PG are probably just as squishy since their ward got reduced and doesn't help vs magical damage anymore. Sounds like all of them are going to be a bit of glass cannons out of combat (compared to their price at least).
@@MountainMiniatures I agree we'll have to wait and see.
That toughness remains at 3 and their saves are only decent is an issue right along with cost per model, yes. Any army that can bring a fair amount of bog standard shooting is going to hurt the HE badly, unless the HE lean hard into shooting too. Flooding the field with bodies is another option against the HE but I think other armies that are bringing fighty units without shooting of their own own (I'm thinking Beastmen, Chaos, non-tzeentch demons) are going to have trouble, as the HE spearmen will hold for long enough for the elite units to be brought to bear.
Then again, even if their elite units are kill the front rank every time, if whatever they are fighting doesn't just break outright they'll have to chop through most of the unit to get freed up to go help elsewhere. Humm...
I think the only non-shooting one-to-one threat to their elite infantry is going to be Fast and/or Multi-wound models. Cav/chariots or Monstrous infantry. The extra charge range to give them enough initiative to actually kill some of the HE elite before they kill the Cav back. Ironically, Knights Errant would be the perfect choice against HE elite. You might not win, but you may still kill enough of them first to make it worth while.
Also sorry for long comments. I'm a wordy putz when I get going.
Swordmasters still op 🙄
So i think the white sword is (on a lord)good with sword master honour you talking killing blow and monstrous killing blow at initiative…. Seems pretty juicy if you get vauls unmaking off he seems like a utter beast of a lord
I’m pretty sure the lothern sea guard honour enables your character to only be mounted on a skycutter which is probably why it’s free. No taking it with archers.
Great weapon elves being I5 on the charge makes my Hammerers very sad.
I don’t think it’s gonna be super powerful, but personally I’m really looking forward to putting a noble or prince with the white lion honor on a lion chariot and bullying other characters with my str 6, AP -3 great blade striking on initiative. Oh and also I suppose the entire extra lion chariot that will be part of the attacks. Close combat elves are my favorite thing and GW fucked me in 40k on that front, so I’m really looking forward to it in Old World
I feel this! Playing GKs in 40k, melee is a bit lackluster. Excited to bring my elves out of storage
What do you guys think about the sisters? 1 ap.. 2 armor bane.. high bs... could really wittle down small calvary units and chariots. Would also be very scary to small elite infantry with 4 up armor saves.
Impact Hits, Magic Missiles/Shooting, and 2+ Sv high T units will still pose a problem tor Elves. Thebway stepping up works, Impact Hits counter how HE functions.
I think elves look squishy, but magic is greatly toned down and with the exception of wood elves shooting is also not so deadly. Also cleaving blow doesnt look all that useful considering the -2AP base of swordmasters swords and the general low armour of units.
i seriously have to replay this over and over to understand what is being said.
10 sets of ads by 30 min? lordy youtube...
My one counter to not taking white lion chariots. It's elves with giant cats, gonna be honest I love it. At least aesthetically.
Also a prince on white lion chariot with the white sword is probably the single greatest monster hunter in the game 😉 4 shots at instakilling a chaos lord on dragon
Good video, thanks for sharing. I know this must have been a lot of frantic filming trying to learn the new rules and get these all out but I do think these videos would benefit from a slightly more knowledgeable co-host. Half the video is you explaining basic rules to your colleague. Still a good watch anyway.
Empire humans, no upgrades are 5. Bretonnian men might be 4 though
I'm pretty sure bretonnian men at arms (weapons, shields, light armour) are 4 points each. Lothern seaguard are basically just as easily killed by ranged/magic but are 12 points with shields.
Unpopular opinion - ik - but I'm not loving the Phoenix Guard nerf. Don't get me wrong, they needed A nerf, just not the nerf they got. 5+ ward. Or even a 6+ ALL ward, not just one that only affects non-magical stuff.
They're just too over-priced for what they do as there are far stronger offensive units to the HE's now so there's literally no reason to bring them, and it's a shame as they are beautiful. And they just aren't tanky anymore as Elves just don't do tanky.
ASF I will miss as I started in 8th, and found that due to the general wet-paper of elves, ASF really was the only thing that made their units good without magic. But now seeing how they ARE good, and have a lot of Elven shenanigans, I'm overall very happy with them - especially the Dragon Princes and Swordmasters.
The one and only Army. Form Phalanx Asur!
Can high elves be built without the cringy headgear, and still be tournament-legal? Really like this faction, but the hats are a deal-breaker. Thanks for the video!
I think you got the blood of caledor rule wrong- you dont need it to take a moon or star dragon.
do bolt throwers still pirce through models in formations?
Yes. Though now they're on Multiple Wounds 2, instead of D3. I THINK they automatically pierce ranks now instead of only if they kill the front model. Don't quote me on the actual penetration, I've only heard the Through-and-Through rule once.
Does the Reaver Bow work with arrows of Isha?
He is gonna be so broken lmao
Lol people love to complain about elves. Doesnt matter the edition or even the game system. Just love to hate them.
@@MountainMiniatures OMG THIS. Whilst there are some gnarly combos, I think the HE's have their clear strengths and weaknesses. T3 S3 is not a good thing to have on even core units that cost more than elites.
Always enjoyed Elves.
Phoenix guard lost the wardsave?? No more super tank 4 + ward unit?
4+ Plate and 6++ Ward. Can be improved by a Mage with Shield of Saphery, but you could just toss that 5++ on a unit of Sword Masters. The +1 Attack spell on a charging unit of Swordmasters seems fun.
White sword is strike last but HE lord is strike first.... so you fight on Initiative.
Can seaguard redress the ranks after stand and shoot in such a way that they are out of range of a charge and make it auto fail?
Pretty sure you check range when you declare the charge, that's how I would play it anyway
Yes possibly, only if it's at the very edge of the maximum charge range. The charge gets rolled after the LSG have shot and redressed, so the HE player doesn't yet know how far they are charging,
I like they made personalizable characters so you can make thematics armies by provinces. I wish they would made something like that for TK instead of just "Settra is a bad guy".
Have you done a review on ogres yet I can't find it
Lothern Sea Guard's stand and shoot ability is that the enemy unit that is charging gets a free redress the ranks, not the lothern sea guard
No, the charged unit can redress its ranks. Not the charging unit. It makes that distinction clear. So the sea guard shoot and then redress and have to hold.
FOR ALGORYTHMO! FOR THE STEVE! FOR LUGNUT MCGILLYGULLY JR!
the core infantry seem a little too good. I guess time will tell. but out of all the faction walk throughs so far these have had the most units that made me go, 'oh id fancy a unit of those in my list'
Oeth blade masters are broken, 14 points?? really?
t3 5+ save. Play the game, come back and tell me if you still think they are broken.
t3 elves, what do you expect? I7 being charged, f5 -2AP with cleaving blow, and WS6, for only 14 points, compare to Dark elves o whatever infantry in the game and come back and tell me if they are not broken, and yes y suffered them@@MountainMiniatures
i though i already answered, 14 points, S5 -2AP cleaving blow, I7 while being charged, 6+ ward against shooting, i have already suffered them and btw, compared to any other infantry of that type, like dark elves, are broken. @@MountainMiniatures
@@user-cy3qv4gs8m Yeah thats fair, we dont have to agree about them. Iv played against them twice myself, they didnt do anything of note.
Iv used them and they havent crossed the table with a full rank.
We can disagree about if they are good or bad. But calling them broken isnt accurate. (unless we just use the term "broken" differently)
yes, we desagree but i think that, compared to other factions special units, they are cheap and very powerfull@@MountainMiniatures
Ho-eth
Hoe-th
Your review of the sword masters failed to mention that they are going to strike first against essentially everything even when being charged. Pretty much just characters, super elite units (grail knights, chosen, etc ...), and impact hits will be able to get attacks in before the sword masters cut them down.
I expect to see 3 units of them in pretty much every high elf list once people figure out how powerful this is.
Thats simply not true. Sword masters will fight at the same time as the average mini that charges it, not before. If they get charged in the flank or rear they fight after I3 minis. Iv Played on a single game with them so far, so im not comfortable calling how good or bad they are yet, but im thinking the stay on the shelf. but i got to give them more play testing.
@@MountainMiniatures They're I7 when charged and the average guy charging them is I3 + 3 charging bonus for I6. What am I missing?
@@benjaminboyle7329 oh true my bad. i forgot about elven reflexes. so they first against minis that are half or a third of their points costs when charged.
@@MountainMiniatures Fair. They probably are more expensive than most of those things but even fights at same time against normal chaos warriors is quite a benefit. Time will tell. I love your content btw. By far the best of all the old world stuff going around right now.
A good peasant bowmen volley could end a very expensive T3 low armour sword master unit. Not to mention their vulnerability to all the 2d6 magic spells that could nuke them.
I could not possibly remember all of these special rules. I purchased the main rule book to pick rules from to use in Oldhammer. I will not be getting any thing else if these videos are an indication of the complexities they contain.