Can't believe I have to say this, but reminder, you're still allowed to like them, if you feel like it. All I'm saying is that they are a very divisive legion and here are the reasons why. That's it, don't overthink it beyond that.
I made that comparison about Yellow being new Blue and as Iron Hand I know what is to be on the opposite end of that attention spectrum. But you do end up sounding pretty damn salty and presenting things that are hardly specific to IF as if they are. So yeah big shook, people might defend them.
I already made most of my points in a previous post here. They are decisive, especially in game… I accept that, but where I differ is in the lore, I am not A fists fanboy and been around the hobby since RT era and I love most… not all… but most of the Dorn and Imperial fist lore. So when it comes to LORE not table top play, it is about opinion on story telling and preference and not hard tangible gameplay facts.
@@The_Blood_Wraith To be fair. There is a ton of situations where writer tries to glorify or dunk on on something he doesn't like (Emperor himself being the biggest receiver of that). There are objective measurement to writing, it's general quality (not individual enjoyment mind you)and writer's goals and methods. But because of the marketing push and their position in game's power pyramid., well I can see that getting more visible or grating in IF case. IF you ever heard some phrase along the line of "we only call it propaganda when we disagree with it" this is the same issue on smaller scale.
That was generally my point is on the Lore part it is solely preference and not absolute truth. I can hate the lore and you love it. It doesn’t make either one of us right or wrong, it is simply opinion, but don’t make individual opinion/bias of the story seem like it is fact because it is not. Something I think is OP you could think is great and vice versa. It is Lore done by the company and writers of their IP so I understand not likening stuff, there is plenty of lore I don’t like, but it is still the lore. Saying one guy can’t beat another because I don’t think it makes sense is not lore, it’s opinion based on bias. Any primarch could on any given day beat another if the situation favors them. Now some are written better than others but like Dorn beastmoding Alpharius I loved. I am a Sanguinius fan boy and even I think they did Angron wrong in the recent release. That battle is now lore and I don’t like the way it happened, and my opinion is it should have been much longer and more brutal with a better ending for Angron, but guess what… I am not the one that gets to make that call, and my opinion is NOT the objective truth. I think the lore part of this video was just a rant against not liking the writing…cool but that is just YOUR opinion and it is NOT objective it IS biased. That was my whole point. The gameplay stuff I agree with most of it but they, while related, are separate!
I would have like Imperial Fists vs Iron Warriors as the starter set. A proper grudge match. Like Utramarines vs Word Bearers or Space Wolves vs Thousand Sons.
Look, I've been something of a fan of the Fists for a while now and I personally I'm not offended by what they did with Dorn. However, I'm pretty disappointed that they didn't give him much to do during the Heresy, and having him beat Fulgrim in a duel is pretty bullshit. Furthermore, I was always under the impression they were more of an underrated Legion and Chapter in general. Usually, they're used as a punching bag, typically by the Iron Warriors, with their only win over their arch-rivals being that one time with Polux, and even then that was bullshit in the way it was handled. There's also that retarded ass time they were wiped out by the Beast, that time the Iron Warriors successfully boarded the Phalanx and nearly took it, the Seige of Terra where Perturabo made several breaches in Dorn's defenses before packing up and leaving (as a fuck you to both Dorn and Horus for not appreciating him, especially since he nearly broke his back carrying the entire fucking Heresy), and need I mention the Iron Cage? I never hear the fucking end of it. My store's official legion is the Iron Warriors and I'm one of the only Imperial Fists players there. I might as well have been a Fist in the fucking Iron Cage with how often I see my legion shredded. All of that being said, I absolutely agree with most of this video. The Imperial Fists are too powerful. They're masters of all trades and I don't like that. I never played the Legion for easy wins. I'm playing them for a combination of lore and the fact they're the parent chapter to my actual favorite Space Marines: the Crimson Fists. I liked the idea that they were just simply extremely stubborn, with minds like a fucking brick. I liked that this was both their greatest strength as they're basically immune to corruption, but also their greatest weakness as they often refuse to move, fighting and dying to the last man. I also like how this regimented mentality made them good with bolters and holding lines. But having an invincible wall of melee infantry and tanks that shoot better than everyone else? Nah, that ain't it. That shit's boring. It's funny to imagine, but it's also boring AF. They had Fists right in the previous edition. They didn't need to buff them this much. Lastly, lore. I agree with how shitty they handled Dorn during the Heresy. In the hands of better writers, we would've seen Dorn being forced to make the tough decisions, placing entire chapters of the Imperial Fists in the way of Horus, using them as speedbumps to buy more time to ready Terra's defenses. We could even get flashes of Horus inspecting Dorn's fortifications before the Heresy began, they could've been remarking on how gorgeous and magnificent they were, only to flash to the present with Dorn lamenting the fact that his defenses have to be used against Horus (which would've also been extremely thematically relevant as well). He could've even been mocked as becoming as callous and cold as Perturabo is in regard to casualties, as wave after wave of Fists are slaughtered to a man by the Traitors as they carve a path to Terra. Maybe, just maybe, we could've seen that stony exterior start to crack and get a hint of the rage he'll carry into the Scouring. But no, that would've made Dorn an interesting character, and we can't have that.
I will note, they become a punching bag almost exclusively post-siege. There's moments beforehand, but compared to other legions (cough, Iron Hands, Iron Warriors, Raven Guard, cough)
Same here, they don't know how to write Stoic characters. They either write Dorn and the Imperial Fists as soulless automatons or raging berserk. They use "but they were angry" to justify putting them in the most god awful situations and then have them fight their way through it because "they're stubborn though". It's just terrible writing. There are some good bits here and there like Rogal Dorn's dilemma about turning the beautiful palace into an ugly fortress or that time when an Imperial Fist descendant and and Ultramarine descendant almost came to fist-fight after the IF claimed that although it took the tactical brilliance of an Ultra to write the Codex, it takes the drilling and obedience of an IF to properly apply it. IF dropping dem truth bombs since M30. The problem is that Rogal Dorn is a very subtle character, in many ways he is the exact opposite of Leman Russ. Whereas Russ is forced to put on the mask on the Emperor's executioners and act like a ruthless savage despite his warm character, Dorn is forced to hide his emotions and stay as cold and in-control of himself despite his boiling blood. The problem is that when he is angry or hurt, authors don't manage to show it beneath the facade of his mask, and when he snaps, they write him forgoing any semblance of logic or strategy. It makes him look bipolar or throwing a Tantrum as opposed to a hurting Stoic releasing the pressure.
@@TheOuterCircle Yeah, true...Iron Hands especially so since they lost Ferrus so early on. I can't comment too much on before the Seige of Terra as I haven't read enough books on the Horus Heresy.
to be fair, Dorn, Malcador and the fists' leadership served as the high command for the war. They coordinated logistics, fleet and troop movements, and intelligence together with the custodes. Dorn was basically the supreme commander of the loyalist war effort (this side of the rift) while the Emperor sat on the Golden Throne. The actual yellow space marines themselves are definitely overwanked though
Dorn only knew about the betrayal due to actions of Garro during the HH book Flight of the Eisenstein, and this happens post Isstavan, post Imperium Secundus, and the events of the horus heresy are already 2/3 of the way come and gone before Dorn or Malcador become aware. The the HH novel Nemesis, it is late into the horus heresy when Malcador attempts his Assassination of Horus. In the HH novel Deliverance Lost, when Corax gets to Terra, we find that at this point in time, Dorn hasn't arrived at Terra yet, but Malcador and the Emporer are aware of the betrayal. To be perfectly fair, alot of the authors write their own perceived head canon, their own personal bais against individuals and Legions, and could easily argue it was Malcador providing the leadership and logistics as Dorn as a character is very narrow minded in his duty to Terra and spent most of his time preparing for the siege
And while Jaghetti, Sanguinious and company did help in the siege, The white scars primarily served as guerrella strike forces due to an inability to adapt to stationary warfare; and the blood angels main role were to act as instinct allowed where they were told to stand guard. The Imperial Fists shining moment/15 minutes of fame was indeed the Siege of Terra. Dorns personal Combat level is a bit out there tho.
@@I_am-lost. You forget that communication is not superluminal in 40K. Even the Emperor could only communicate at a limited capacity because of all of the warp activity that was happening due the massive Chaos presence. And there is a mountain of difference between knowing that something's going on and being able to effectively respond to it. All of the actively engaged imperial forces were basically on their own and cut off from the command at the beginning. This was entirely Horus' plan. He knew that the legions would stand and fight rather than consolidating and regrouping with their command structure because the Primarchs were all used to acting independently. The "resistance" was pretty much a joke. Sorry to all the whiners who want to prop up Corax or any of the other Istvaan survivors that kept fighting, but those guys were idiots that did exactly what Horus wanted. They all stood and fought for pointless worlds without strategic value, wasting their resources while Horus pushed for Terra while it was vulnerable and poorly defended. He knew if he killed the Emperor that EVERY OTHER FIGHT, was meaningless. Without the Emperor the Empire of Humanity loses all communication, all ability to navigate the warp and all will to keep up the fight. The Imperium dies and Chaos wouldn't even have to lift a finger after that. Just.....wait. It all hinged on Terra and "The Resistance" just helped Horus achieve his goals.
@@gabrielpardo4229 Exactly. The White Scars had no knowledge of bunkering up so they went out and did what they did best and contested the space port assets, which was key for a good portion of the battle. The Blood Angels don't do much because the Legion wasn't there. Just a small contingent with Sanguinius. So the only Marine legion engaged with the defense of the Palace was the Imperial Fists. Let's also remember that the Imperial Palace is not some pleasure home, but a massive fortress the size of a small country and Dorn would have been in charge of his Legion (not a chapter, but a whole marine legion), but millions of guard and PDF soldiers, and coordinating with the Custodes, The Imperial Fleet and the Emperor. An impressive feat even for a Primach.
IMO, yellow is even more painful to paint than black. Granted I don't actually paint pure black anymore and mix in either red, green, blue, or purple, both into the black and into the grey highlights.
To be fair, Hydra Cordatus was basically a dark age citadel with walls that literally rebuilt themselves as they were destroyed and the Warsmith in charge of the assault was demoted afterwards
The problem is that the new players and the current heresy staff don't give a shit about the lore/setting enough to have things make narrative sense they just want to be a part of the cool new thing
I picked up various different 40k and HH books over the years to read on a whim. I've always enjoyed them but always had the thought that Black Library would benefit from a bullpen with strong editors. Characters and legions across the horus heresy are characterized wildly differently between authors or not at all. The Lion, and Rogal are victims of this quite often. TLDR: A fix for a lot of the fluff problems would be an editorial team that knows the lore and isn't afraid to Crack the whip on writers trying to be cute.
Yeah absence of a bible and some editor in chief like position made it a bit of a mess. I recall some podcast with Josh Reynolds where someone asked him if they have like a Discord server or some way to share info for these multi-peopel projects answer was something along the line of "... that's a pretty good idea".
@@jankostrhun8725 Wow. I was just speculating, but BL not having even a basic forum for their writers to check each other's notes is amazing. You would think, given the 30 some odd years of publications, that they'd have some kind of internal lore Bible. It makes me wonder, Is this a side effect or the cause of their "everything is canon" stance?
@@lemonrazor7812 Yeah that and a fact that lore and books were always minor concern for GW as a whole so why bother. And most writers are no to keen on restriction so without someone in position of authority who does nothing else but the consistency, it would be a loosing batter given how much stuff they pump out. Just for comparison, DC marvel had SEVERAL editors in chief, each for various sub-brands. Say what you want about Star Wars EU, but duded got this figured decades ego, you had hierarchy of canon and people responsible for keeping overall consistency (which thay did kept to impressive degree despite waht some asshole would claim). And sure SW is much bigger property, but Black library isn't exactly small indie studio. It's just frustrating thinking out sometimes >D
The problem with GW is how they always, ALWAYS feel the need to have a "default" colosheme for their product lines. That's how some legions/chapters end up with way too much focus and attention. I wish GW would realize this is bad on many level and always made sure to not give any specific subfaction the role of posterchild for their whole faction.
Really feels like it'd be better if they painted the units in most if not all subfactions available and post the ones that turned out best/fit the role the best, give the space marine bike releases to the white scars, the scouts, give them to ravenguard and so on
@@sahaynam6470 In don't know what 3rd edition you are talking about buddy, but it was certainly not warhammer 40k. The poster boys always were the black legion, and randomly 7th they tried to push hard for the red corsairs for some reasons, but that's it.
Never had an issue with Dorn besting Fulgrim in a regular duel, since Fulgrim at this point is near immortal with his demonic healing, and as such would have become sloppy ( and in a suitabe moment of irony he has become as far from the perfection he always sought as ever ) while Dorn is focused and in his element, the battlefield ( he is after all 'the Soldier' ).
I don't buy it, fulgrim is obsessed with perfection. He repeats all of his old battles over and over again trying to make them perfect. He bring ferrus back multiple times because he can't stand the stain on his perfect record. Fulgrim would always strive for perfection in every battle. Abnett just took slaanesh in the most retarded manner.
@@disconcerningcitizen2224 I agree, Fulgrim was obsessed with and strove for perfection, but at that point he thought he had obtained it when he became a Daemon Primarch.
Fulgrim also spent the entire duel goading Dorn into doing something foolish akin to the Khan fighting Mortarion. The entire time Dorn is having none of it and simply respond to Fulgrim’s question of “Will you tell me I can be redeemed and forgiven?” With: “No. I’m just going to kill you.”
I played Imperial Fists in 1st edition heresy, played various successors of them in 7th (Crimson Fists and Black Templars), got better at painting and found a good recipe for yellow I could do consistently and made an army of them I played in 8th and 9th. I love my Imperial Fists, alongside my Space Wolves and White Scars. That said I don’t like when writers and rules make my favorite factions Mary Sues in the lore or OP on the tabletop, sucks the joy out of them. Wargaming is a social game and when your opponent rolls their eyes because you brought “that force” it doesn’t make for a great experience.
Having read angel exterminatus more times than I care to mention (mostly for the crew of the sysiphium) - I would amend the comments about the fists simply because its also mentioned that the fortress is supposed to be some ancient lost-tech marvel where the walls can self repair in a similar manner to necron living metal + can actively be used to fight back (apparently the walls "swallowed up" iron warriors during the siege and was heavily armed with anti infantry and anti tank weapons) As for the medical trauma stuff, the fists don't survive the horrors of fabius, they just take a little longer to succumb. By the end of the book they've both devolved into monsters entirely and are put down as such. I'm not a massive IF fan as I find dorn and his legion so overly stoic and their rules so bland + blatantly power inflated that I simply can't enjoy them, but I don't think angel exterminatus is that good of an example for how they're overly inflated by GW. Anything to do with Dorn organising the loyalists or elaborating on any of the books relating to the battle of Phall would be more suited to your point imo. An interesting vid and keep up the content my guy :)
I know it's a magic fortress, but that's an awful lot of dakka arrayed against them, and nobody deep struck in earlier? But I did go on to cite Phall for the very reason you said.
Didn't Konrad Curze beat Rogal Dorn within an inch of his life after Rogal Dorn swung on Konrad while his back turned? Seems weird that in rules writers eyes he's in the top tier of primarchs
Curze nearly killed him outright, nearly killed Corax outright. The Lion is absolutely above Dorn in sheer martial prowess and ability, his background has made him a beast, while Dorn was suckling on the teets on an easy upbringing in comparison to many other Primarchs
@@nightlordsnarrative7550 he didnt even come close to killing Corax, all he did was prevent Lorgar from being killed by Corax, he didnt pursue the fight
John French did Perterabo a lot of justice in "Slaves to Darkness." That said, it feels like he has a huge favorable bias towards Dorn. Dorn essentially scolding and schooling Alpharius in Alpharius' preferred way of war is peak sue-ness, and had to be undone in retrospect in Alpharius' own book to preserve his character.
Yeah agreed, it was such stupid writing that they had to retcon it in Alpharius’ Primarch book. You’re really expecting me to believe that the AL didn’t have a single asset on the Phalanx that could’ve said ‘The fortress is heading to Pluto’???
IMO The Blood Angels should have been the loyalist poster boys seeing how The Angel knew of his fate yet he still went to terra to fight Horus. I legit think Sanguinius was the protagonist of the Horus Hersey.
Thank you good sir for actually giving credit where credit is due. Our Legion fought non-stop behind enemy lines with almost no freaking resources and we saved Primark Lehman Russ's ass when he got in over his head we swooped in with our claws and pulled him out of the fire. People forget about our Legion because yes we live in the shadows so we're always in the dark but when we come out of those shadows we get results we don't want Glory but it would be really nice for someone to acknowledge the work we were putting in during the heresy. And for doing that my friend I fully appreciate it may the emperor shine his light upon you brother have a good day. Also black isn't hard to paint if you give it a good base coat.. it's all about the base coating you know that! LOL VICTORUS AUT MORTIS!!!!
Curze and the NL did have a very good showing vs one of the most hyped legions, specially for a legion who is really only famous for killing civvies. It's like an army of crackheads managing to not instantly lose to the SAS.
@@Sommeill Beneath the jokes, I honestly prefer when the Night Lords stop running. The Omnibus colours a lot of their lore, the Black Books show them fighting orcs impressively well and Savage Weapons shows that while they're psychotic, it's foolish to underestimate anyone thousands strong in power armour.
@@thewayfarer8849 I think the NL are just very self interested and not terribly keen on helping each other out. They were incredibly effective fighters, and they actually almost defeated the DA in open combat on Crucible.
I think IF have become the latest poster boys because the Heresy Plot is now established around the siege of terra and that is the IF greatest time to shine.
John French is even worse. You left out Praetorisn to Dorn: where Alpha Legion gets out Alpha Legion'd by Imperial fists. THEN because Dorn has to have a primarch kill: Alpharius (who is on a tactical scale between Guilleman and the Lion) decides to lock Dorn in a bunker with him after blowing up a ton of defenses, and causing mayhem. So he can try to talk to the most unreasonable primarch there is......AND he wasnt even trying to kill Dorn???
French unintentionally fucked the hole narrative that Dorn was "da man" : Alpharius - if it was him - tells Dorn to his face that he gives him victory lol
Not to mention how the Pale Spear - a bloody millions of year old necron artefact that tunes matter it contacts into oily black smoke - does absolutely nothing to Dorn when he’s stabbed with it. He should’ve at least lost an arm. Plus how a chainsword (albeit a very powerful version) just hacks through another Primarch’s armour like it’s paper??
I'm a crimson fist fan boy, ever since that cool art of the final stand was shown to me as a little kid, always found the imperial fists to be more boring crimson fists
Me too, I've always found the Crimson Fists to be so much cooler than the Imperial Fists. Black Templars too, although the attention GW gave them recently tainted a lot of that. Current GW is like a reverse king Midas, everything they touch turns to sh*t.
@@demonstructie GW seem unable to give a tasteful love to a lot of products - they move in gluttonous bursts that would make a Slaanesh worshipper cower in fear. If something is their new favourite, it must be slathered in love and pushed so far ahead it eclipses all
@@darko-man8549 yeah but that's still a charitable interpretation, the kind of thing you outline used to happen back in the days as well because it was just a bunch of nerds getting carried away by their imaginary world (which was great), but now it's just a cynical marketing department trying to optimize sales and profit. I honestly don't know how the company can return to a healthier balance between enthusiasm and profit - they'll have to sacrifice short term profit for long term engagement and attachment and I just don't see that happening
Macca, I can tell that you like the game more than any influencer/shill BECAUSE you point out flaws, but also give ways on how to fix it. That says more about your passion for the game than anything. If any Legion should have been the face of the Heresy for the Loyalists, I think that it should have been the Dark Angels, though. Black spray and trim is not hard for a new player to do, and they have thr most tactical flexibility out of all the Legions with their Hexagramaton. Lore-wise, it's like you said. They went out and did shit.
The Imperial Fists favoritism doesn't do the Imperial Fists any favors either. I liked Imperial Fists old lore: a legion of professional soldiers who strip away their individualism in favor of strict hierarchy, serving their command hierarchy well during sieges while the individual marine adheres to a strict training regimen that can give rise to talented duelists. Their primarch Dorn handled war as a mathematical equation that required cold hard facts and plain speaking to make the right decisions. In 30K this IS NOT that legion and Dorn is not that primarch. Dorn isn't a solid block of stone, he's more emotional, the Imperial Fists are now masters at just about everything they have to be, their personalities are more fluid and fleshed out. I don't like it, I wouldn't like it if it was my Iron Hands that were portrayed as that because it dampens the severity of the war. The best legions that are the most interesting are ones that are perfectly flawed. The Iron Hands, pound for pound are THE BEST space marines, save for the Thousand Sons. They embrace cybernetic enhancements and the strength of the machine over the flesh as well as being embracing perfectionism in their training and conduct. I don't care if the opponent is a Blood Angel lost to the red thirst, he will not be able to withstand the pressure of a a hand with the grip strength of an industrial hydraulic press. So with all that going for the Iron Hands why don't they just dominate? Arrogance, they bite off way more than they can chew, Ferrus Manus was pretty confident he could knock out the EC and Fulgrim with like, one clan company and although his actions debatabley saved the shattered Legion war effort, it can also be seen as arrogance. That's what I want out of my legions: the Blood Angels are the best, except when they're vampiric psychopaths. The Imperial Fists dominate on the defense, except when the unexpected happens
which is depressing when you realise Dorn beat the Alpha legion by "out alpha-legioning the Alpha Legion" - it's the UM effect of 40k rubbing off on IF in 30k. When the IF Pollux faced the IW - I'd understand if Perturabo said "these warriors are holding longer than any for their number that Ic ould have predicted" but then eventually were broken - instead it's this "30 marines become a wall so impregnable even the Legion known for destroying the toughest walls could not break them"
@@DarkKnightCuron He is basically the elemental of the "perfect GW fan". Cant stand it. Every now and then he has a good level headed video about our hobbie but usually it's just HoLy EmPoReR DoRn TaNk 11111
My favourite thing about Dorn is how he manages to turn off the capabilities of the Pale Spear with his mind and just chainsaw cleanly through four layers of the Pythian Scales in a single swing. Thanks, French, for making our space-daddy so much bigger and coolerer than those nasty traitor ones.
Agreed, the Spear is specifically described as turning things it comes into contact with into ‘oily black smoke’. Dorn should’ve at least lost an arm when stabbed in the shoulder.
For the Angel Exterminatus section you glossed over the fact the siege was months long and included a self repairing fortress and a large contingent of human soldiers. The 30 fists were all that remained at the end
I'm very jealous of the Fists being able to take their special units as line, as I would love to be able to take Gal Vorbak as line in my Word Bearers army to create the 30k equivalent of a daemonkin army.
I'm not a huge fan of John French either. Have you read the Ahriman Novels? Ahriman was one of my favorite characters in the Heresy and I was curious if you'd review what John's done with the character after the Heresy.
The Fists are the poster SM legion in Horus Heresy because on paper they are the vanilla legion, since every other has a niche (Blood Angels are melee specialist, Dark Angels with their wings, Space Wolves also melee niche, Raven Guard with stealth, Salamanders being flamer oriented and White Scars being a fast attack legion). Iron Hands could be poster boys, but their Primarch is dead for the majority for the heresy. As for the rules and the writing, yeah, GW just screwed up.
The Pollux writing feels very much like John French was going "Yes! Yes my pretty IF beat these IW BEAT THEM DOWN! YES!..." [a few moments later] [deep sigh] "wait....Perturabo needs to surivive......uuuh that's it "Dorn calls Pollux back and Pollux is such a chad he obeys the order even at a detriment to Heresy because Dorn's words must be more important." Perfect"
I love that you gave some love to the Khan and his Scars in this; they are just as if not more capable than the other loyalist legions, and yet their achievements are overlooked so often. P.S. White isn't that hard to paint
@@chaseherrington I liked the idea of breachers and templars as well as the uniqueness since no one in my group was likely to paint them, but seeing what they have become does sadden me
Thanks for the interesting and informative video, I appreciate someone reviewing the document and not just using the time to complain about GW's pricing. Though some complaints should be expected in that area.
Dorn beating Fulgrim is pretty dumb. And also, dubious. My reading was that Fulgrim was bored, and Dorn was no threat, so he left as Dorn wasn't able to hurt him in his daemon form
That makes no sense at all, niether was Ferrus or Guilliman but he intended to kill them both, faces dorn and is like.... eh... i suppose itd just be unfair if i wiped out 1/3 of my loyal brothers...
He also fuckin contributed to the drop site massacre, but isnt concerned with D O R N !? The Reaver of the Scouring and basically the bastion of defense in the seige of terra, i think if fulgrim killed him then even if perty left the seige terra wouldn't exist, warmaster or not. Maybe the throne room would last until the terminus decree
@@SuperOmegaBerserker at this point Fulgrim isn’t concerned with the heresy, he just wants to be a Slaanesh daemon and chill in the warp. Dorn cannot hurt Fulgrim in his daemon form anyway. But that’s me trying to make a bad writing decision work. Fulgrim should have just murdered his ass
@@alexwilbrecht6962 yea cause its almost entirely countered when you ask....so the primarch of excess and pride DIDNT want to be known for directly killing the most loyal primarchs? 😂😂😂
@@alexwilbrecht6962 they should of just added he was summoned by slaanesh idk why they have all the perfect answers (example it would be exactly like what nurgle told mortarion on Mccrage) and then choose to pick some mentally retarded answer in place of already established and more logical solutions to these issues. Shit you coulda just had them meet at the scouring and of had fulgrim not listen to horus post Laer Blade begin with. And he coulda been why rogal was "dead" or MIA
The problem is that Dorn and his Legion aren't special yet pretend to be. Even with all his special treatment Perturabo was defeating him during the Seige of Terra and that's with a broken force while Dorn had the best of the best on his side. If Perty and Dorn had their situations switched then there would be no cracking that iron fortress Perturabo would turn Terra into.
I have to say the way the Traitor Primarchs have been handled in the Siege of Terra makes me unhappy. I also think they forgot the whole "the Imperium was never the good guys" thing. The easy wins they gave several Primarchs, especially the Fulgrim loss at the Saturnine Gate, were handled clumsily and felt like "plot armor". Tbh Sanguinius beating Karbanda and Angron in a row was pushing it too. If they used a little imagination they could have the loyalists use tactics instead of fighting one on one duels they always win against legit stronger traitor daemon primarchs, but no it is almost like straight up imperial propaganda in this series.
yeah my biggest criticism is that the traitor side is never given any stunning achievements or surprising moves. The loyalists never seem surprised and every traitor advance is simply weight of numbers. For most of the series the only pressure the loyalist seem to have is told to us rather than shown. Rather disappointing considering all we could have gotten. It's especially ironic considering storm of iron did an amazing job at balancing the desperation of attacker and defender during a siege and kept you guessing until the end at the result.
To be fair, Sanguinius is almost certainly the best fighter amongst the Primarchs, and Angron was overpowering him for most of their fight due to having infinite stamina. Him being a gloriously powerful melee fighter is completely in character for him. If he, say, out-thought Perturabo during the Siege then that would be irritating. Similarly, Dorn somehow not only holding his own against Daemon Fulgrim but beating him? That's a big no from me.
@@darko-man8549 I don't think Sanguinius has any powers other than his visions. As far as I'm aware, the only four Primarchs who could willingly use psyker powers before Daemonhood were Magnus, Curze, Corax, and Lorgar. Magnus is self explanatory, Curze had a few instances where he used some telekinetic and telepathic powers, Corax had his invisibility, and Lorgar was something of a mini-Magnus. Also Mortarion was preternaturally sneaky despite being a bipedal garbage truck but how or why was never really explored.
If there was a consumer friendly miniature game with cool lore and set mechanics, where you can proxy in old GW models id be there in a gunshot, OnePageRules seems to be fixing a lot of stuff james workshop does wrong
i started out playing fist when heresy 2.0 dropped. i love them. all that said, i'm currently looking to start a new legion because i just can't lose with the fist and i'm bored and my friends are frustrated and i don't blame them. i'm currently looking between iron hands and raven guard but can't decide. any opinions on these two legions would be helpful. looking for mid tier but also fun.
Seems like your friends need some better strategies. The power lvl difference is so little between the armies, strategy and army building are a much bigger impact. IF are good but have sub par special units compared to other legions.
@@3v3rhard LOL ahh yeah Stone Gauntlet rerollable invulns so terrible. IF special units might be inferior to Suzerain but compared to most traitor units they are far superior. I'm not even gonna go into Sigismund
They don't write Dorn consistently either. He's supposed to be this Stoic Elemental, but he flies off the handle and turns into Angron when someone tells him something he doesn't want to hear.
So my point that looks like it helped inspire this video, I even agreed their was some poor writing. As I said, I am a Blood Angels and Dark Angels fan and player. And I think some of this is also there are issues of people just taking different things from stories due to individual bias. I conceded several of stories were poorly written. But I was not necessarily discussing the Imperial Fists as I was Rogal Dorn. I think he is often done a disservice because of old Bias. The Dark angels are a Jack of All Trades legion, there was no reason why another legion couldn’t be as well. I also concede that in game they are broken. I am aware of broken units, as a blood Angel and dark Angel player, I have some very broken units at my disposal. So I think there are two separate issues here… and yes they do affect each other. There are lore issues that are more about story arch preferences. I just disagree with your assessment of Dorn the character and what he can or cannot do. Like you, I have been on this since rogue trader era. I have seen the ups and downs. I just don’t agree with your assessment of him as a character. That is preference and opinion, not fact, just like what you put in the video. Game play rules wise the fists are in need of a rework. Nobody can deny that. As I said previously, I think the only WS8 charachters should be Russ, Lion, Sanguinius, Angron and Horus. Literally every other primarch should be 7. Because among the rest, yes on any given day depending on the situation of the battle they could beat each other. Again Game play versus lore. I do agree since they are the poster boys (and from a marketing sense someone has to be mind you) they get a lot of attention. Dorn being the Praetorian and default warmaster would be one of the main characters. And just like Guilliman in 40K that will draw negative attention from the people whose legion isn’t represented. My Blood Angels and Dark Angels have never been the poster boys but they do get far more love then say Raven Guard, Iron Hands and White Scars. So yes GW needs to work on that. But when it comes to lore, some of the stories are extreme and their is some plot armor or over imbellishment, but ultimately it is their story to tell. We might not always like the result but that doesn’t negate its existence. For example when Guilliman came back first instead of the lion is was one of the ones who thought it was garbage because Lion is alive and just sleeping, you literally had to do death magic warp Eldar shenanigans to bring back Guilliman. But I also didn’t make it the center of my hatred. The Ultras are 40K poster boys and the Imperial Fists 30k and for me as someone who loves the game and plays neither legion it makes sense. Yes both get their share of crap plot Armor stories but they have also been written well with a lot of new charachter developments and it seems to me lore wise, those developments seem to bother people and that absolutely has to do with preference and bias in a lot of cases. Game wise I have few disagreements with you. Lore wise I said Pollux story was garbage, Ranns was weak, I am torn on Sigismunds solely because of his pre and post heresy arch’s. But no, he should not be able to go at a Primarch. But yes he should beat almost anyone else. On Dorn himself we just have to agree to disagree.
Well yeah the fulgrim vs dorn bit was pretty unnecessary but one has to remember that it was not the noble master swordsman fulgrim that dueled ferrus on isstvaan but the high as fuck sado masochistic demon slug fulgrim that was slain by dorn. And depending on which version you go with it really was just a greater demon using fulgrim's twisted body so it does make sense because primarchs do become weaker after relying on posession and power from the warp, and to be honest snake boi probably didn't even try to win that fight so that says more about how trash he has become rather than how strong dorn is. Also l'm none of the yellow pilled fellas but if we are already comparing primarch tier fights you probably should also have brought up that one time perty bullied demon angron into submission sort of the same scenario.
The aspect of dorn planning and turn imperial Palace into the ultimate siege fortress when 1)no clue when the attack is due so what is the best he manages to get done? 2) the practicality of preparing for a "convention" astartes vs astartes war not the hordes of demons and the might of chaos being such a unknown factor 3)the whole plan of a war of attrition just to be dorn's last ditch escape plan for the emperor where the hell were they going to retreat to and hes wiling to waste millions of troops to do it.
I don't think sanguinius could be the poster boy either he's tooo good (even his flaws show how good he is). It would be even worse than RG being the perfect boi spiritual liege. At least Dorn is unashamedly an arse, and not "the light against the darkness" just an embattled CiC doing what he can. The lion could have been a better choice perhaps, but he's so secretive the spotlight wouldn't have suited.
Oh, you're bringing up Rogal Dorn. The new golden boy. the points you're making are like you're plucking them straight out of my head. I really started thinking about it seriously when he beat Alpharius in close combat, despite the pale spear etc. I was like: wait a minute, Rogal ain't a fighter. he's a strategist. And sure Alpharius might not be either, but he would never end up in a duel fight without being assured of winning. So I started doing the same digging you're outlining here, and it just got more and more incredulous.
"But ThEy NevER SaID hE WaSN't A fiGhTEr" have you read that comment 100 times yet? Only Loyalist to kill another Primarch too, becuase Khan Killing Mortarion, Sanguinius killing Angron, Lion breaking Curze and Russ breaking Magnus, Vulkan also breaking Magnus, twice, none of that counts.
3rd 40K in 1998: An IF tactical squad may be led by Vet. Sgt. Lysander (special character). The squad may reroll all to hit rolls done by Bolter fire. If you opt to reroll, you must also reroll ALL the dice which means even the successful hits. Note that this “Bolter Drill” only applies to Bolters and not Bolt weapons such as Bolt Pistols or Heavy Bolters. Fast forward to HH 2.0 in 2022: Every Auto weapon fired by a model of the IF legion gets a bonus of +1 to it´s BS score. Also don´t forget all the other useful melee stuff mentioned in the video. How GW went from the minor buff of 3rd 40K to the overpowered mess in HH 2.0 is beyond me.
Dark angels went from Marines that can go all terminators or bikes/speeders to knights with flails, plasma specialists, random custom speeders, and they still haven't fixed the Lions Sword. Blood Angels were regular Marines with a command squad that could wear jump packs and they had the Death company which had models upgraded for free. And the furioso dreadnought. Space Wolves had to take an HQ choice for every 750 points in the army. Their terminators could be split into units to lead squads. Grey knights were a single unit entry allied to any imperial army. They were a squad of 5 and had one special psychic power (Holocaust) and they were 500 points. And they had bolter glaives like custodes. Necrons used to have 5 different models. Lord, Immortal, Warrior, Destroyer and Scarab. That was it. And they were Chaos robots. And all of John Blanches sketches of Necrons were just poor recreations of Gieger doodles. Times change and products change with them.
Let’s also add that if he is still alive in the 41m and it on terra he willing let the imperium decline and did nothing when all of his bother where died or in the eye taking the fight to chaos to save the imperium. He is a coward and should be chewed up for it but will not
tbf, Perty leaving in the middle of SoT is actually a very good character moment - where Perty could have been used to be Renegade who wasn't aligned with Chaos but instead used them for his own ends, unwilling to be anyone's tool.
@@disconcerningcitizen2224 that's easy. Book 6. They all are terrible for the most part immediately after Fulgrim. Even Fulgrim drags on too long for such little pay off. Actually, after remembering that Fulgrim kills an Avatar with his bare hands... Eisenstein was the last good HH book.
Dorn being on par with Sanguinius is ridiculous Hawk Boi straight up held the Eternity Gate and banished Ka Bandha and Angron then proceed to fight Horus.
Rogal Dorn's 1E incarnation was better, gave good buffs to his army, could deal with hordes and tarpits, but lost big ol' duels of fate against real beatsticks like Russ and Horus.
The writers of Horus Heresy would have benefitted from understanding real military operations as a baseline. There is still room for imaginative science fiction elements but thinking about logistics and strategy would have grounded the stories a bit better.
I think you got the wrong idea about Alexis Polux, the Crimson Fist. He was never even supposed to be there. And he would have won the battle, not because he is somehow more brilliant than everyone else, including a primarch, but simply because he didn't let his ego cause him to make mistakes. He just followed established military doctrine, and focused on the objective. He is an "everyday man" who is just doing his job (and doing it well). He is the polar opposite of Sigismund. This is why he is generally well liked, even by iron Warriors players like myself. Alexis Polux exists only to show the huge flaw that exists in both Rogal Dorn (and Sigismund and the rest of the Imperial Fists) and Perturabo. The difference is that at the end of the battle, Perturabo analyzes and understands what happened, and how he failed. He LEARNS from this mistake, something Rogal Dorn NEVER does. The direct consequence of this is The Iron Cage. The complete destruction of the Imperial Fists as a Legion, and a total victory for the Iron Warriors. (Sigismund later dies exactly because of this. When he does his "pro-gamer move" to kill Abaddon the Despoiler, and fails. But the Crimson Fists survive getting overrun by an Ork WAAAGH!!! by doing the smart thing rather than the heroic thing.) (It is possible that this even connects to how Rogal Dorn ends up getting killed, or captured.)
one of the worse things is that imperial fists fans use the siege of terra as a defence to why rogal dorn and the imperial fists are good(?). Mention the iron cage and it didnt count , mention the 1000 space marines needed per chapter and the imperial fist after the iron cage could only make 6 chapters, it doesnt count. dorn destroyed his legion to try and beat the iron wariors, where all he hadd to do was admit perurabo was better.
As an Imperial Fist fan, but not a die hard one, Iron Cage most certainly counted and it was where we saw Dorn’s flaw of extreme stubbornness be his downfall. We needed to see (and we need more cases) of his character trait becoming an issue and having an effect on his tactics. I’ll let you read your last sentence and try to imagine ANY primarch admitting something like that
@@chaseherrington sanguinius and khan are the only ones who admitted others were better. I have had some mane *ahem* conversations about the iron cage. Including its the reason all the crimson fists were on Rynns World at the time of the Ork invasion.
@@chaseherrington the one thing, that I think at least, shows between Traitor Primarch writing and Loyalist is that the Traitor flaws are really thrown at us and all their mistakes are due to their flaws. The Loyalists...they get like one event that is their "moment of weakness" and for some legions (I say Russ and his blind loyalty to Horus and hatred of Magnus) it's almost painted as a victory
Why does Dorn's armor look like Custodes' instead of his own Imperial Fist design? Unlike other primarchs who wear armors with similar decoration to their primaris.
Like Rules wise it might be due to the fact that they have +1 on almost all relevant shooting. The Kratos main battle canon included. They can have 3++ termies that can run and have s10 Solar power gauntlets (Tartaros) +1 WS vs traitors on the WL and his retinue (yes so that means ws 6 s10 3++ termies with their already insane leaders) They have 2 of the best characters ruleswise, one that straigth up gives line to some of your most tanky units. Corswain is like the second best melee character in the game, bar primarchs etc. They get special illiastus guns iirc. The legion in its whole, with what it gets on the tabletop vs like idk ... iron hands? Salamanders? Thousand sons, is just over the top.
Kratos is already bad, the IF version make it ok. Still bad compared to heavy support squad. Termies dont have access to solarite gauntlets only huscarls and characters. 3++ shield is good but very expensive.
Yeah remember when IG got a new tank named after Lord Solar Macharius? Military leader that I do believe had more merit and tactical genius than Rogal? With Yarrick possibly dissapearing from 9th IG dex they SHOULD name new IG Tank Yarrick Battle Tank. Or hell. Sebastian Yarrick Haevy Assault Tank. I am already salty that they made Ragnar new arch nemesis of Thraka. I was expecting new Yarrick model but no we need Wolves to do something. And this comes from a guy who truly likes Heresy era Wolves. I would settle on Creed Battle Tank - military genius that was able to ambush enemies with efing titan.
It should’ve been Sons of Horus vs Blood Angels or even Ultramarines, but the Imperials Fists only start doing stuff in the latter half of the heresy If they want to stick with Imperial Fists, make it against the Iron Warriors
I feel like the fact that they're one of the blandest of the loyalist legions is also part of the appeal. They'd already done Ultras vs Word Bearers and didn't want Ultras to be the poster boys for 30k. What's the second blandest legion in people's eyes ? Fists (note : I don't think Ultras are that bland, especially in 30k, but this is just general perspective). As you pointed out, there's not much actual strategy to the Fists in lore. It just seems like they've been written as "they can hold a bastion, even 1 man to 1000.". It just reads like the Ultras' "tactical genius", just a quick way of explaining away how the faction is THAT good.
Late reply, I know, but I thought I'd give my two cents. As a Fists fan since seeing their retina damaging yellow in the army painter screen of Dawn of War when I was about 8, I've always found they're less of the Ultramarines tactical prowess (Logical & Practical) and more Masters of Fortification. Creating spaces that are impenetrable, and having the knowledge to be able to take one down if it's on the other end. If they were just that, I'd be happy with that and it's how I've always seen it anyway. And they're also strangely good at void warfare I guess, I can take or leave that one honestly. I will say that thing about them holding off the iron warriors with 30 guys is just terrible writing. Make it interesting at least. If it was more about the architecture and defensive emplacements of said bastion, I'd be more inclined to be ok with it, but as it stands...yeah that's not good. I guess I'm basically agreeing with you and many other people in this comment section, but I also wanted to give an idea of what a lot of Fists players might see in the Legion themselves. If it makes the current mary sue thing sting less, Rogal goes on to pull one of the most idiotic moves in history post-heresy and loses an obscene amount of the legion.
The ones who are higher up with a title and command the most important stuff usually are the ones praised and recognized, Happens with officers in the military and managers in civvi street..despite the actual machinations of an individual below.....dorn being the praetorian makes him the figurehead 9 years of civil war that encompasses a lot of the galaxy ...seems incredibly short ...even when you have warp travel
Can't believe I have to say this, but reminder, you're still allowed to like them, if you feel like it. All I'm saying is that they are a very divisive legion and here are the reasons why. That's it, don't overthink it beyond that.
I made that comparison about Yellow being new Blue and as Iron Hand I know what is to be on the opposite end of that attention spectrum. But you do end up sounding pretty damn salty and presenting things that are hardly specific to IF as if they are.
So yeah big shook, people might defend them.
Tbf your whole thing is overthinking things and that's not necessarily bad
I already made most of my points in a previous post here. They are decisive, especially in game… I accept that, but where I differ is in the lore, I am not A fists fanboy and been around the hobby since RT era and I love most… not all… but most of the Dorn and Imperial fist lore. So when it comes to LORE not table top play, it is about opinion on story telling and preference and not hard tangible gameplay facts.
@@The_Blood_Wraith To be fair. There is a ton of situations where writer tries to glorify or dunk on on something he doesn't like (Emperor himself being the biggest receiver of that). There are objective measurement to writing, it's general quality (not individual enjoyment mind you)and writer's goals and methods.
But because of the marketing push and their position in game's power pyramid., well I can see that getting more visible or grating in IF case.
IF you ever heard some phrase along the line of "we only call it propaganda when we disagree with it" this is the same issue on smaller scale.
That was generally my point is on the Lore part it is solely preference and not absolute truth. I can hate the lore and you love it. It doesn’t make either one of us right or wrong, it is simply opinion, but don’t make individual opinion/bias of the story seem like it is fact because it is not. Something I think is OP you could think is great and vice versa. It is Lore done by the company and writers of their IP so I understand not likening stuff, there is plenty of lore I don’t like, but it is still the lore. Saying one guy can’t beat another because I don’t think it makes sense is not lore, it’s opinion based on bias. Any primarch could on any given day beat another if the situation favors them. Now some are written better than others but like Dorn beastmoding Alpharius I loved. I am a Sanguinius fan boy and even I think they did Angron wrong in the recent release. That battle is now lore and I don’t like the way it happened, and my opinion is it should have been much longer and more brutal with a better ending for Angron, but guess what… I am not the one that gets to make that call, and my opinion is NOT the objective truth. I think the lore part of this video was just a rant against not liking the writing…cool but that is just YOUR opinion and it is NOT objective it IS biased. That was my whole point. The gameplay stuff I agree with most of it but they, while related, are separate!
I would have like Imperial Fists vs Iron Warriors as the starter set. A proper grudge match. Like Utramarines vs Word Bearers or Space Wolves vs Thousand Sons.
Yeah then they could have given us mark 3 Marines instead of piles of beakies.
Or Emperors children vs iron hands
That'd be a sick idea
Yeah and have some breachers in the starter set too. I feel like we don’t see breachers enough.
We already kinda had Wolves vs Sons :)
Look, I've been something of a fan of the Fists for a while now and I personally I'm not offended by what they did with Dorn. However, I'm pretty disappointed that they didn't give him much to do during the Heresy, and having him beat Fulgrim in a duel is pretty bullshit. Furthermore, I was always under the impression they were more of an underrated Legion and Chapter in general. Usually, they're used as a punching bag, typically by the Iron Warriors, with their only win over their arch-rivals being that one time with Polux, and even then that was bullshit in the way it was handled. There's also that retarded ass time they were wiped out by the Beast, that time the Iron Warriors successfully boarded the Phalanx and nearly took it, the Seige of Terra where Perturabo made several breaches in Dorn's defenses before packing up and leaving (as a fuck you to both Dorn and Horus for not appreciating him, especially since he nearly broke his back carrying the entire fucking Heresy), and need I mention the Iron Cage? I never hear the fucking end of it. My store's official legion is the Iron Warriors and I'm one of the only Imperial Fists players there. I might as well have been a Fist in the fucking Iron Cage with how often I see my legion shredded.
All of that being said, I absolutely agree with most of this video. The Imperial Fists are too powerful. They're masters of all trades and I don't like that. I never played the Legion for easy wins. I'm playing them for a combination of lore and the fact they're the parent chapter to my actual favorite Space Marines: the Crimson Fists.
I liked the idea that they were just simply extremely stubborn, with minds like a fucking brick. I liked that this was both their greatest strength as they're basically immune to corruption, but also their greatest weakness as they often refuse to move, fighting and dying to the last man. I also like how this regimented mentality made them good with bolters and holding lines. But having an invincible wall of melee infantry and tanks that shoot better than everyone else? Nah, that ain't it. That shit's boring. It's funny to imagine, but it's also boring AF. They had Fists right in the previous edition. They didn't need to buff them this much.
Lastly, lore. I agree with how shitty they handled Dorn during the Heresy. In the hands of better writers, we would've seen Dorn being forced to make the tough decisions, placing entire chapters of the Imperial Fists in the way of Horus, using them as speedbumps to buy more time to ready Terra's defenses. We could even get flashes of Horus inspecting Dorn's fortifications before the Heresy began, they could've been remarking on how gorgeous and magnificent they were, only to flash to the present with Dorn lamenting the fact that his defenses have to be used against Horus (which would've also been extremely thematically relevant as well). He could've even been mocked as becoming as callous and cold as Perturabo is in regard to casualties, as wave after wave of Fists are slaughtered to a man by the Traitors as they carve a path to Terra. Maybe, just maybe, we could've seen that stony exterior start to crack and get a hint of the rage he'll carry into the Scouring.
But no, that would've made Dorn an interesting character, and we can't have that.
Bro, you summed up all my feelings and phrased them far better than I could.
Thanks
I will note, they become a punching bag almost exclusively post-siege. There's moments beforehand, but compared to other legions (cough, Iron Hands, Iron Warriors, Raven Guard, cough)
Same here, they don't know how to write Stoic characters. They either write Dorn and the Imperial Fists as soulless automatons or raging berserk. They use "but they were angry" to justify putting them in the most god awful situations and then have them fight their way through it because "they're stubborn though". It's just terrible writing. There are some good bits here and there like Rogal Dorn's dilemma about turning the beautiful palace into an ugly fortress or that time when an Imperial Fist descendant and and Ultramarine descendant almost came to fist-fight after the IF claimed that although it took the tactical brilliance of an Ultra to write the Codex, it takes the drilling and obedience of an IF to properly apply it.
IF dropping dem truth bombs since M30.
The problem is that Rogal Dorn is a very subtle character, in many ways he is the exact opposite of Leman Russ. Whereas Russ is forced to put on the mask on the Emperor's executioners and act like a ruthless savage despite his warm character, Dorn is forced to hide his emotions and stay as cold and in-control of himself despite his boiling blood. The problem is that when he is angry or hurt, authors don't manage to show it beneath the facade of his mask, and when he snaps, they write him forgoing any semblance of logic or strategy. It makes him look bipolar or throwing a Tantrum as opposed to a hurting Stoic releasing the pressure.
Your stores official army is the iron warriors? Dude where the fuck is this store I’m in the opposite book there’s 9 fists in mine 😂
@@TheOuterCircle Yeah, true...Iron Hands especially so since they lost Ferrus so early on.
I can't comment too much on before the Seige of Terra as I haven't read enough books on the Horus Heresy.
to be fair, Dorn, Malcador and the fists' leadership served as the high command for the war. They coordinated logistics, fleet and troop movements, and intelligence together with the custodes. Dorn was basically the supreme commander of the loyalist war effort (this side of the rift) while the Emperor sat on the Golden Throne. The actual yellow space marines themselves are definitely overwanked though
Ohhh that's why most of the resistance came from shattered legions and from the guys not being led by dorn
Dorn only knew about the betrayal due to actions of Garro during the HH book Flight of the Eisenstein, and this happens post Isstavan, post Imperium Secundus, and the events of the horus heresy are already 2/3 of the way come and gone before Dorn or Malcador become aware. The the HH novel Nemesis, it is late into the horus heresy when Malcador attempts his Assassination of Horus. In the HH novel Deliverance Lost, when Corax gets to Terra, we find that at this point in time, Dorn hasn't arrived at Terra yet, but Malcador and the Emporer are aware of the betrayal. To be perfectly fair, alot of the authors write their own perceived head canon, their own personal bais against individuals and Legions, and could easily argue it was Malcador providing the leadership and logistics as Dorn as a character is very narrow minded in his duty to Terra and spent most of his time preparing for the siege
And while Jaghetti, Sanguinious and company did help in the siege,
The white scars primarily served as guerrella strike forces due to an inability to adapt to stationary warfare; and the blood angels main role were to act as instinct allowed where they were told to stand guard.
The Imperial Fists shining moment/15 minutes of fame was indeed the Siege of Terra.
Dorns personal Combat level is a bit out there tho.
@@I_am-lost. You forget that communication is not superluminal in 40K. Even the Emperor could only communicate at a limited capacity because of all of the warp activity that was happening due the massive Chaos presence. And there is a mountain of difference between knowing that something's going on and being able to effectively respond to it. All of the actively engaged imperial forces were basically on their own and cut off from the command at the beginning. This was entirely Horus' plan. He knew that the legions would stand and fight rather than consolidating and regrouping with their command structure because the Primarchs were all used to acting independently. The "resistance" was pretty much a joke. Sorry to all the whiners who want to prop up Corax or any of the other Istvaan survivors that kept fighting, but those guys were idiots that did exactly what Horus wanted. They all stood and fought for pointless worlds without strategic value, wasting their resources while Horus pushed for Terra while it was vulnerable and poorly defended. He knew if he killed the Emperor that EVERY OTHER FIGHT, was meaningless. Without the Emperor the Empire of Humanity loses all communication, all ability to navigate the warp and all will to keep up the fight. The Imperium dies and Chaos wouldn't even have to lift a finger after that. Just.....wait. It all hinged on Terra and "The Resistance" just helped Horus achieve his goals.
@@gabrielpardo4229 Exactly. The White Scars had no knowledge of bunkering up so they went out and did what they did best and contested the space port assets, which was key for a good portion of the battle. The Blood Angels don't do much because the Legion wasn't there. Just a small contingent with Sanguinius. So the only Marine legion engaged with the defense of the Palace was the Imperial Fists. Let's also remember that the Imperial Palace is not some pleasure home, but a massive fortress the size of a small country and Dorn would have been in charge of his Legion (not a chapter, but a whole marine legion), but millions of guard and PDF soldiers, and coordinating with the Custodes, The Imperial Fleet and the Emperor. An impressive feat even for a Primach.
IMO, yellow is even more painful to paint than black.
Granted I don't actually paint pure black anymore and mix in either red, green, blue, or purple, both into the black and into the grey highlights.
And here I am painting my entire army up in a similar scheme to Templar Brethren.
I will say
I do enjoy the 30k aesthetic for fists
But I wish we saw more of the less popular legions
Shattered legions such
I hope my Legion never becomes a poster boy
To be fair, Hydra Cordatus was basically a dark age citadel with walls that literally rebuilt themselves as they were destroyed and the Warsmith in charge of the assault was demoted afterwards
Two words: John French.
Even unemployed, I still loom over 40k
The problem is that the new players and the current heresy staff don't give a shit about the lore/setting enough to have things make narrative sense they just want to be a part of the cool new thing
Yeah...
I picked up various different 40k and HH books over the years to read on a whim. I've always enjoyed them but always had the thought that Black Library would benefit from a bullpen with strong editors. Characters and legions across the horus heresy are characterized wildly differently between authors or not at all. The Lion, and Rogal are victims of this quite often.
TLDR: A fix for a lot of the fluff problems would be an editorial team that knows the lore and isn't afraid to Crack the whip on writers trying to be cute.
Too many cooks is a huge problem at BL
Perterabo is a big one
Yeah absence of a bible and some editor in chief like position made it a bit of a mess.
I recall some podcast with Josh Reynolds where someone asked him if they have like a Discord server or some way to share info for these multi-peopel projects answer was something along the line of "... that's a pretty good idea".
@@jankostrhun8725 Wow. I was just speculating, but BL not having even a basic forum for their writers to check each other's notes is amazing.
You would think, given the 30 some odd years of publications, that they'd have some kind of internal lore Bible.
It makes me wonder, Is this a side effect or the cause of their "everything is canon" stance?
@@lemonrazor7812 Yeah that and a fact that lore and books were always minor concern for GW as a whole so why bother. And most writers are no to keen on restriction so without someone in position of authority who does nothing else but the consistency, it would be a loosing batter given how much stuff they pump out.
Just for comparison, DC marvel had SEVERAL editors in chief, each for various sub-brands.
Say what you want about Star Wars EU, but duded got this figured decades ego, you had hierarchy of canon and people responsible for keeping overall consistency (which thay did kept to impressive degree despite waht some asshole would claim). And sure SW is much bigger property, but Black library isn't exactly small indie studio.
It's just frustrating thinking out sometimes >D
@@jankostrhun8725 Jesus, not even a discord…
RIP fists, relationships ended when blood angels feel more reasonable
The problem with GW is how they always, ALWAYS feel the need to have a "default" colosheme for their product lines.
That's how some legions/chapters end up with way too much focus and attention.
I wish GW would realize this is bad on many level and always made sure to not give any specific subfaction the role of posterchild for their whole faction.
Really feels like it'd be better if they painted the units in most if not all subfactions available and post the ones that turned out best/fit the role the best, give the space marine bike releases to the white scars, the scouts, give them to ravenguard and so on
LOL at one point (3rd?) the Night Lords were the poster boys for CSM.
@@sahaynam6470 In don't know what 3rd edition you are talking about buddy, but it was certainly not warhammer 40k. The poster boys always were the black legion, and randomly 7th they tried to push hard for the red corsairs for some reasons, but that's it.
Me, who collects IF: I just want to paint yellow bois :)
Never had an issue with Dorn besting Fulgrim in a regular duel, since Fulgrim at this point is near immortal with his demonic healing, and as such would have become sloppy ( and in a suitabe moment of irony he has become as far from the perfection he always sought as ever ) while Dorn is focused and in his element, the battlefield ( he is after all 'the Soldier' ).
Yeah, I interpreted that dual as being about their mental states and Fulgrim being bored, inpatient, and recklessly lashing out.
I don't buy it, fulgrim is obsessed with perfection. He repeats all of his old battles over and over again trying to make them perfect. He bring ferrus back multiple times because he can't stand the stain on his perfect record. Fulgrim would always strive for perfection in every battle. Abnett just took slaanesh in the most retarded manner.
@@disconcerningcitizen2224 I agree, Fulgrim was obsessed with and strove for perfection, but at that point he thought he had obtained it when he became a Daemon Primarch.
@@arionofotherworld but most of the stuff I described came after his ascension
Fulgrim also spent the entire duel goading Dorn into doing something foolish akin to the Khan fighting Mortarion. The entire time Dorn is having none of it and simply respond to Fulgrim’s question of “Will you tell me I can be redeemed and forgiven?” With: “No. I’m just going to kill you.”
This is fair. Someone in charge likes Fists and doesn't know restraint. seems to happen a lot at GW.
what I love about Angel Exterminatus is that an Iron Warrior sees an Imperial Fists captain and is literally like:
"No helmet?" *headshots him*
I played Imperial Fists in 1st edition heresy, played various successors of them in 7th (Crimson Fists and Black Templars), got better at painting and found a good recipe for yellow I could do consistently and made an army of them I played in 8th and 9th. I love my Imperial Fists, alongside my Space Wolves and White Scars.
That said I don’t like when writers and rules make my favorite factions Mary Sues in the lore or OP on the tabletop, sucks the joy out of them. Wargaming is a social game and when your opponent rolls their eyes because you brought “that force” it doesn’t make for a great experience.
I am in the same exact position.
Having read angel exterminatus more times than I care to mention (mostly for the crew of the sysiphium) - I would amend the comments about the fists simply because its also mentioned that the fortress is supposed to be some ancient lost-tech marvel where the walls can self repair in a similar manner to necron living metal + can actively be used to fight back (apparently the walls "swallowed up" iron warriors during the siege and was heavily armed with anti infantry and anti tank weapons)
As for the medical trauma stuff, the fists don't survive the horrors of fabius, they just take a little longer to succumb. By the end of the book they've both devolved into monsters entirely and are put down as such.
I'm not a massive IF fan as I find dorn and his legion so overly stoic and their rules so bland + blatantly power inflated that I simply can't enjoy them, but I don't think angel exterminatus is that good of an example for how they're overly inflated by GW. Anything to do with Dorn organising the loyalists or elaborating on any of the books relating to the battle of Phall would be more suited to your point imo.
An interesting vid and keep up the content my guy :)
I know it's a magic fortress, but that's an awful lot of dakka arrayed against them, and nobody deep struck in earlier? But I did go on to cite Phall for the very reason you said.
Didn't Konrad Curze beat Rogal Dorn within an inch of his life after Rogal Dorn swung on Konrad while his back turned? Seems weird that in rules writers eyes he's in the top tier of primarchs
Curze nearly killed him outright, nearly killed Corax outright. The Lion is absolutely above Dorn in sheer martial prowess and ability, his background has made him a beast, while Dorn was suckling on the teets on an easy upbringing in comparison to many other Primarchs
Kurze was an absolute monster. He 1v2d Guilliman and the Lion for a hot minute and even outplayed them when they were finally overwhelming him
@@nightlordsnarrative7550 he didnt even come close to killing Corax, all he did was prevent Lorgar from being killed by Corax, he didnt pursue the fight
Curze is also arguably the best 1v1 fighter out of all the Primarchs.
@@frawDgnicnaD Wasn't it a 2v1 situation? Corax, being a master of attacking when least expected, would have preferred to not be in that situation.
Fists were crucial in the defense of Terra. Are they Vanilla? Yes. But Vanilla can be pretty solid, and you need that in your ice cream parlor.
Outer circle confirmed as Peter Turbos personal Remembrancer
Is he? I didn't remember to put him on our payroll.
John French did Perterabo a lot of justice in "Slaves to Darkness." That said, it feels like he has a huge favorable bias towards Dorn. Dorn essentially scolding and schooling Alpharius in Alpharius' preferred way of war is peak sue-ness, and had to be undone in retrospect in Alpharius' own book to preserve his character.
Yeah agreed, it was such stupid writing that they had to retcon it in Alpharius’ Primarch book.
You’re really expecting me to believe that the AL didn’t have a single asset on the Phalanx that could’ve said ‘The fortress is heading to Pluto’???
Jaghatai has a disgustingly low WS for a primarch of his skill level
IMO The Blood Angels should have been the loyalist poster boys seeing how The Angel knew of his fate yet he still went to terra to fight Horus. I legit think Sanguinius was the protagonist of the Horus Hersey.
No Konrad was the protagonist
@@xaviersalinas3170 Let me correct myself, Hawk Boi is the Loyalist Protagonist.
@@EmperorsChild i can agree with that
Thank you good sir for actually giving credit where credit is due. Our Legion fought non-stop behind enemy lines with almost no freaking resources and we saved Primark Lehman Russ's ass when he got in over his head we swooped in with our claws and pulled him out of the fire. People forget about our Legion because yes we live in the shadows so we're always in the dark but when we come out of those shadows we get results we don't want Glory but it would be really nice for someone to acknowledge the work we were putting in during the heresy. And for doing that my friend I fully appreciate it may the emperor shine his light upon you brother have a good day. Also black isn't hard to paint if you give it a good base coat.. it's all about the base coating you know that! LOL
VICTORUS AUT MORTIS!!!!
Curze and the NL did have a very good showing vs one of the most hyped legions, specially for a legion who is really only famous for killing civvies. It's like an army of crackheads managing to not instantly lose to the SAS.
Hahaha, I got a good laugh out of how vivid that last picture was
@@thewayfarer8849 Curze and his goons performed well enough that the Lion basically had to use Tuchulcha map hacks to beat them. Quite impressive tbh.
@@Sommeill Beneath the jokes, I honestly prefer when the Night Lords stop running. The Omnibus colours a lot of their lore, the Black Books show them fighting orcs impressively well and Savage Weapons shows that while they're psychotic, it's foolish to underestimate anyone thousands strong in power armour.
@@thewayfarer8849 I think the NL are just very self interested and not terribly keen on helping each other out. They were incredibly effective fighters, and they actually almost defeated the DA in open combat on Crucible.
mention of overzealous mods makes me immediately think of the 40k subreddit - a bigger bunch of investor-simps and shills i have never seen!
I think IF have become the latest poster boys because the Heresy Plot is now established around the siege of terra and that is the IF greatest time to shine.
John French is even worse. You left out Praetorisn to Dorn: where Alpha Legion gets out Alpha Legion'd by Imperial fists. THEN because Dorn has to have a primarch kill: Alpharius (who is on a tactical scale between Guilleman and the Lion) decides to lock Dorn in a bunker with him after blowing up a ton of defenses, and causing mayhem. So he can try to talk to the most unreasonable primarch there is......AND he wasnt even trying to kill Dorn???
French unintentionally fucked the hole narrative that Dorn was "da man" : Alpharius - if it was him - tells Dorn to his face that he gives him victory lol
Is it just me, or every time a traitor primarch is beaten, it's because the loyalist "did what the traitor was a specialist in...but better"?
Remember Dorn could always know who Alpharius was matter how he hid himself. Because of course he could. I'm waiting for him to out psycher Magnus.
Not to mention how the Pale Spear - a bloody millions of year old necron artefact that tunes matter it contacts into oily black smoke - does absolutely nothing to Dorn when he’s stabbed with it. He should’ve at least lost an arm.
Plus how a chainsword (albeit a very powerful version) just hacks through another Primarch’s armour like it’s paper??
I'm a crimson fist fan boy, ever since that cool art of the final stand was shown to me as a little kid, always found the imperial fists to be more boring crimson fists
They're my favourite Fists sub-chapter too. I due to the same artwork and such from the 3rd ed days.
Me too, I've always found the Crimson Fists to be so much cooler than the Imperial Fists. Black Templars too, although the attention GW gave them recently tainted a lot of that. Current GW is like a reverse king Midas, everything they touch turns to sh*t.
@@TheOuterCircle i miss the days when Crimson Fists were the poster boys
@@demonstructie GW seem unable to give a tasteful love to a lot of products - they move in gluttonous bursts that would make a Slaanesh worshipper cower in fear. If something is their new favourite, it must be slathered in love and pushed so far ahead it eclipses all
@@darko-man8549 yeah but that's still a charitable interpretation, the kind of thing you outline used to happen back in the days as well because it was just a bunch of nerds getting carried away by their imaginary world (which was great), but now it's just a cynical marketing department trying to optimize sales and profit. I honestly don't know how the company can return to a healthier balance between enthusiasm and profit - they'll have to sacrifice short term profit for long term engagement and attachment and I just don't see that happening
One could think .. Valraks writing alias is John French .)
Macca, I can tell that you like the game more than any influencer/shill BECAUSE you point out flaws, but also give ways on how to fix it.
That says more about your passion for the game than anything.
If any Legion should have been the face of the Heresy for the Loyalists, I think that it should have been the Dark Angels, though. Black spray and trim is not hard for a new player to do, and they have thr most tactical flexibility out of all the Legions with their Hexagramaton. Lore-wise, it's like you said. They went out and did shit.
As a Sons of Horus player - I approve this message.
Rogal Dorn is a glorified supply sergeant 😉
Hell even in echos of eternity you had dorms boys be the ones treating the injuries that sanguinious got
The Imperial Fists favoritism doesn't do the Imperial Fists any favors either. I liked Imperial Fists old lore: a legion of professional soldiers who strip away their individualism in favor of strict hierarchy, serving their command hierarchy well during sieges while the individual marine adheres to a strict training regimen that can give rise to talented duelists. Their primarch Dorn handled war as a mathematical equation that required cold hard facts and plain speaking to make the right decisions. In 30K this IS NOT that legion and Dorn is not that primarch. Dorn isn't a solid block of stone, he's more emotional, the Imperial Fists are now masters at just about everything they have to be, their personalities are more fluid and fleshed out.
I don't like it, I wouldn't like it if it was my Iron Hands that were portrayed as that because it dampens the severity of the war. The best legions that are the most interesting are ones that are perfectly flawed. The Iron Hands, pound for pound are THE BEST space marines, save for the Thousand Sons. They embrace cybernetic enhancements and the strength of the machine over the flesh as well as being embracing perfectionism in their training and conduct. I don't care if the opponent is a Blood Angel lost to the red thirst, he will not be able to withstand the pressure of a a hand with the grip strength of an industrial hydraulic press. So with all that going for the Iron Hands why don't they just dominate? Arrogance, they bite off way more than they can chew, Ferrus Manus was pretty confident he could knock out the EC and Fulgrim with like, one clan company and although his actions debatabley saved the shattered Legion war effort, it can also be seen as arrogance. That's what I want out of my legions: the Blood Angels are the best, except when they're vampiric psychopaths.
The Imperial Fists dominate on the defense, except when the unexpected happens
which is depressing when you realise Dorn beat the Alpha legion by "out alpha-legioning the Alpha Legion" - it's the UM effect of 40k rubbing off on IF in 30k.
When the IF Pollux faced the IW - I'd understand if Perturabo said "these warriors are holding longer than any for their number that Ic ould have predicted" but then eventually were broken - instead it's this "30 marines become a wall so impregnable even the Legion known for destroying the toughest walls could not break them"
I just see Valrak screeching about GWs next overpriced decision when I see them and why its glorious.
Really puts me off.
Yeah, Valrak is... it's not for me either.
I REALLY wish the Fist had someone else as their main advocate.
@@DarkKnightCuron He is basically the elemental of the "perfect GW fan". Cant stand it. Every now and then he has a good level headed video about our hobbie but usually it's just HoLy EmPoReR DoRn TaNk 11111
@@sagacity1071 Yeah, I agree.
Thanks for always giving Corax and the other less-recognized Legions and Primarchs some well deserved respect. Right on.
My favourite thing about Dorn is how he manages to turn off the capabilities of the Pale Spear with his mind and just chainsaw cleanly through four layers of the Pythian Scales in a single swing. Thanks, French, for making our space-daddy so much bigger and coolerer than those nasty traitor ones.
Agreed, the Spear is specifically described as turning things it comes into contact with into ‘oily black smoke’. Dorn should’ve at least lost an arm when stabbed in the shoulder.
For the Angel Exterminatus section you glossed over the fact the siege was months long and included a self repairing fortress and a large contingent of human soldiers. The 30 fists were all that remained at the end
I much prefer the Fists characterization pre-Blacked Library, anything since has been author fetish and bias...
Thank you for the video!
I'm very jealous of the Fists being able to take their special units as line, as I would love to be able to take Gal Vorbak as line in my Word Bearers army to create the 30k equivalent of a daemonkin army.
I could take Headhunters as line in their Rite I'd be happy.
Yes Inquisitor, this man right here.
He denied me my holy right to fortify my defense.
Your content has helped me form a happy healthy hobby Mr.Circle. Keep it up!
Fuck I didn’t mean to put a hyperlink there
I'm not a huge fan of John French either. Have you read the Ahriman Novels? Ahriman was one of my favorite characters in the Heresy and I was curious if you'd review what John's done with the character after the Heresy.
Leman Russ was originally a tank commander in the Guard.
Please tell me there is a collection of all the steven dorn gifs somewhere. I need them in my life.
100% Sanguinius should be the protagonist of the heresy.
The Fists are the poster SM legion in Horus Heresy because on paper they are the vanilla legion, since every other has a niche (Blood Angels are melee specialist, Dark Angels with their wings, Space Wolves also melee niche, Raven Guard with stealth, Salamanders being flamer oriented and White Scars being a fast attack legion). Iron Hands could be poster boys, but their Primarch is dead for the majority for the heresy. As for the rules and the writing, yeah, GW just screwed up.
The Pollux writing feels very much like John French was going "Yes! Yes my pretty IF beat these IW BEAT THEM DOWN! YES!..." [a few moments later] [deep sigh] "wait....Perturabo needs to surivive......uuuh that's it "Dorn calls Pollux back and Pollux is such a chad he obeys the order even at a detriment to Heresy because Dorn's words must be more important." Perfect"
Are you shocked that Fists players get defensive when you talk about their Legion? It's what they're best at!
- A fists player
I love that you gave some love to the Khan and his Scars in this; they are just as if not more capable than the other loyalist legions, and yet their achievements are overlooked so often.
P.S. White isn't that hard to paint
is it really surprising that imperial fist players would get defensive?
Ngl 2.0 killed my love of imperial fists, since a lot of power gamers picked them up
I was always drawn in by their lack of super special troops and their hold the line entrenchment despite just being normal marines
@@chaseherrington I liked the idea of breachers and templars as well as the uniqueness since no one in my group was likely to paint them, but seeing what they have become does sadden me
Thanks for the interesting and informative video, I appreciate someone reviewing the document and not just using the time to complain about GW's pricing. Though some complaints should be expected in that area.
Dorn beating Fulgrim is pretty dumb. And also, dubious. My reading was that Fulgrim was bored, and Dorn was no threat, so he left as Dorn wasn't able to hurt him in his daemon form
That makes no sense at all, niether was Ferrus or Guilliman but he intended to kill them both, faces dorn and is like.... eh... i suppose itd just be unfair if i wiped out 1/3 of my loyal brothers...
He also fuckin contributed to the drop site massacre, but isnt concerned with D O R N !? The Reaver of the Scouring and basically the bastion of defense in the seige of terra, i think if fulgrim killed him then even if perty left the seige terra wouldn't exist, warmaster or not. Maybe the throne room would last until the terminus decree
@@SuperOmegaBerserker at this point Fulgrim isn’t concerned with the heresy, he just wants to be a Slaanesh daemon and chill in the warp. Dorn cannot hurt Fulgrim in his daemon form anyway.
But that’s me trying to make a bad writing decision work. Fulgrim should have just murdered his ass
@@alexwilbrecht6962 yea cause its almost entirely countered when you ask....so the primarch of excess and pride DIDNT want to be known for directly killing the most loyal primarchs? 😂😂😂
@@alexwilbrecht6962 they should of just added he was summoned by slaanesh idk why they have all the perfect answers (example it would be exactly like what nurgle told mortarion on Mccrage) and then choose to pick some mentally retarded answer in place of already established and more logical solutions to these issues.
Shit you coulda just had them meet at the scouring and of had fulgrim not listen to horus post Laer Blade begin with. And he coulda been why rogal was "dead" or MIA
The problem is that Dorn and his Legion aren't special yet pretend to be. Even with all his special treatment Perturabo was defeating him during the Seige of Terra and that's with a broken force while Dorn had the best of the best on his side.
If Perty and Dorn had their situations switched then there would be no cracking that iron fortress Perturabo would turn Terra into.
I have to say the way the Traitor Primarchs have been handled in the Siege of Terra makes me unhappy. I also think they forgot the whole "the Imperium was never the good guys" thing. The easy wins they gave several Primarchs, especially the Fulgrim loss at the Saturnine Gate, were handled clumsily and felt like "plot armor". Tbh Sanguinius beating Karbanda and Angron in a row was pushing it too. If they used a little imagination they could have the loyalists use tactics instead of fighting one on one duels they always win against legit stronger traitor daemon primarchs, but no it is almost like straight up imperial propaganda in this series.
yeah my biggest criticism is that the traitor side is never given any stunning achievements or surprising moves. The loyalists never seem surprised and every traitor advance is simply weight of numbers. For most of the series the only pressure the loyalist seem to have is told to us rather than shown. Rather disappointing considering all we could have gotten.
It's especially ironic considering storm of iron did an amazing job at balancing the desperation of attacker and defender during a siege and kept you guessing until the end at the result.
Teh traitors have been almost universally written to be beaten down by the end the whole way through the Heresy, it's kinda depressing.
To be fair, Sanguinius is almost certainly the best fighter amongst the Primarchs, and Angron was overpowering him for most of their fight due to having infinite stamina. Him being a gloriously powerful melee fighter is completely in character for him. If he, say, out-thought Perturabo during the Siege then that would be irritating. Similarly, Dorn somehow not only holding his own against Daemon Fulgrim but beating him? That's a big no from me.
@@sinenomine7115 also, Sanguinius’ major advantage in fighting is his wings. (As well as his skill and psyker powers)
@@darko-man8549 I don't think Sanguinius has any powers other than his visions. As far as I'm aware, the only four Primarchs who could willingly use psyker powers before Daemonhood were Magnus, Curze, Corax, and Lorgar. Magnus is self explanatory, Curze had a few instances where he used some telekinetic and telepathic powers, Corax had his invisibility, and Lorgar was something of a mini-Magnus. Also Mortarion was preternaturally sneaky despite being a bipedal garbage truck but how or why was never really explored.
If there was a consumer friendly miniature game with cool lore and set mechanics, where you can proxy in old GW models id be there in a gunshot, OnePageRules seems to be fixing a lot of stuff james workshop does wrong
i started out playing fist when heresy 2.0 dropped. i love them. all that said, i'm currently looking to start a new legion because i just can't lose with the fist and i'm bored and my friends are frustrated and i don't blame them. i'm currently looking between iron hands and raven guard but can't decide. any opinions on these two legions would be helpful. looking for mid tier but also fun.
Seems like your friends need some better strategies. The power lvl difference is so little between the armies, strategy and army building are a much bigger impact. IF are good but have sub par special units compared to other legions.
@@3v3rhard LOL ahh yeah Stone Gauntlet rerollable invulns so terrible. IF special units might be inferior to Suzerain but compared to most traitor units they are far superior. I'm not even gonna go into Sigismund
They don't write Dorn consistently either. He's supposed to be this Stoic Elemental, but he flies off the handle and turns into Angron when someone tells him something he doesn't want to hear.
Teh Angel exterminatus writing was the biggest jack off to Imperial Fists and has been used so often by people showing "IW are just worse IF"
So my point that looks like it helped inspire this video, I even agreed their was some poor writing. As I said, I am a Blood Angels and Dark Angels fan and player. And I think some of this is also there are issues of people just taking different things from stories due to individual bias. I conceded several of stories were poorly written. But I was not necessarily discussing the Imperial Fists as I was Rogal Dorn. I think he is often done a disservice because of old Bias. The Dark angels are a Jack of All Trades legion, there was no reason why another legion couldn’t be as well. I also concede that in game they are broken. I am aware of broken units, as a blood Angel and dark Angel player, I have some very broken units at my disposal. So I think there are two separate issues here… and yes they do affect each other. There are lore issues that are more about story arch preferences. I just disagree with your assessment of Dorn the character and what he can or cannot do. Like you, I have been on this since rogue trader era. I have seen the ups and downs. I just don’t agree with your assessment of him as a character. That is preference and opinion, not fact, just like what you put in the video. Game play rules wise the fists are in need of a rework. Nobody can deny that. As I said previously, I think the only WS8 charachters should be Russ, Lion, Sanguinius, Angron and Horus. Literally every other primarch should be 7. Because among the rest, yes on any given day depending on the situation of the battle they could beat each other. Again Game play versus lore. I do agree since they are the poster boys (and from a marketing sense someone has to be mind you) they get a lot of attention. Dorn being the Praetorian and default warmaster would be one of the main characters. And just like Guilliman in 40K that will draw negative attention from the people whose legion isn’t represented. My Blood Angels and Dark Angels have never been the poster boys but they do get far more love then say Raven Guard, Iron Hands and White Scars. So yes GW needs to work on that. But when it comes to lore, some of the stories are extreme and their is some plot armor or over imbellishment, but ultimately it is their story to tell. We might not always like the result but that doesn’t negate its existence. For example when Guilliman came back first instead of the lion is was one of the ones who thought it was garbage because Lion is alive and just sleeping, you literally had to do death magic warp Eldar shenanigans to bring back Guilliman. But I also didn’t make it the center of my hatred. The Ultras are 40K poster boys and the Imperial Fists 30k and for me as someone who loves the game and plays neither legion it makes sense. Yes both get their share of crap plot Armor stories but they have also been written well with a lot of new charachter developments and it seems to me lore wise, those developments seem to bother people and that absolutely has to do with preference and bias in a lot of cases. Game wise I have few disagreements with you. Lore wise I said Pollux story was garbage, Ranns was weak, I am torn on Sigismunds solely because of his pre and post heresy arch’s. But no, he should not be able to go at a Primarch. But yes he should beat almost anyone else. On Dorn himself we just have to agree to disagree.
Well yeah the fulgrim vs dorn bit was pretty unnecessary but one has to remember that it was not the noble master swordsman fulgrim that dueled ferrus on isstvaan but the high as fuck sado masochistic demon slug fulgrim that was slain by dorn. And depending on which version you go with it really was just a greater demon using fulgrim's twisted body so it does make sense because primarchs do become weaker after relying on posession and power from the warp, and to be honest snake boi probably didn't even try to win that fight so that says more about how trash he has become rather than how strong dorn is.
Also l'm none of the yellow pilled fellas but if we are already comparing primarch tier fights you probably should also have brought up that one time perty bullied demon angron into submission sort of the same scenario.
The aspect of dorn planning and turn imperial Palace into the ultimate siege fortress when
1)no clue when the attack is due so what is the best he manages to get done?
2) the practicality of preparing for a "convention" astartes vs astartes war not the hordes of demons and the might of chaos being such a unknown factor
3)the whole plan of a war of attrition just to be dorn's last ditch escape plan for the emperor where the hell were they going to retreat to and hes wiling to waste millions of troops to do it.
I don't think sanguinius could be the poster boy either he's tooo good (even his flaws show how good he is). It would be even worse than RG being the perfect boi spiritual liege. At least Dorn is unashamedly an arse, and not "the light against the darkness" just an embattled CiC doing what he can.
The lion could have been a better choice perhaps, but he's so secretive the spotlight wouldn't have suited.
Oh, you're bringing up Rogal Dorn. The new golden boy.
the points you're making are like you're plucking them straight out of my head. I really started thinking about it seriously when he beat Alpharius in close combat, despite the pale spear etc.
I was like: wait a minute, Rogal ain't a fighter. he's a strategist. And sure Alpharius might not be either, but he would never end up in a duel fight without being assured of winning.
So I started doing the same digging you're outlining here, and it just got more and more incredulous.
"But ThEy NevER SaID hE WaSN't A fiGhTEr" have you read that comment 100 times yet? Only Loyalist to kill another Primarch too, becuase Khan Killing Mortarion, Sanguinius killing Angron, Lion breaking Curze and Russ breaking Magnus, Vulkan also breaking Magnus, twice, none of that counts.
Literally all of the Primarchs are fighters, where in the Lore does it state that Alpharius is an excellent dualist?
3rd 40K in 1998:
An IF tactical squad may be led by Vet. Sgt. Lysander (special character). The squad may reroll all to hit rolls done by Bolter fire. If you opt to reroll, you must also reroll ALL the dice which means even the successful hits. Note that this “Bolter Drill” only applies to Bolters and not Bolt weapons such as Bolt Pistols or Heavy Bolters.
Fast forward to HH 2.0 in 2022:
Every Auto weapon fired by a model of the IF legion gets a bonus of +1 to it´s BS score. Also don´t forget all the other useful melee stuff mentioned in the video.
How GW went from the minor buff of 3rd 40K to the overpowered mess in HH 2.0 is beyond me.
Dark angels went from Marines that can go all terminators or bikes/speeders to knights with flails, plasma specialists, random custom speeders, and they still haven't fixed the Lions Sword.
Blood Angels were regular Marines with a command squad that could wear jump packs and they had the Death company which had models upgraded for free. And the furioso dreadnought.
Space Wolves had to take an HQ choice for every 750 points in the army. Their terminators could be split into units to lead squads.
Grey knights were a single unit entry allied to any imperial army. They were a squad of 5 and had one special psychic power (Holocaust) and they were 500 points. And they had bolter glaives like custodes.
Necrons used to have 5 different models.
Lord, Immortal, Warrior, Destroyer and Scarab. That was it. And they were Chaos robots. And all of John Blanches sketches of Necrons were just poor recreations of Gieger doodles.
Times change and products change with them.
The power creep is real
@@kenupton4084 There is a difference, though, between expansion and power creep
@@darko-man8549 that's why I was talking about edition changes to units and not stat and rules changes within an edition.
First notice I have that people “dislike” the IF. Nobody dies. They are badass AF
Let’s also add that if he is still alive in the 41m and it on terra he willing let the imperium decline and did nothing when all of his bother where died or in the eye taking the fight to chaos to save the imperium. He is a coward and should be chewed up for it but will not
Tell me you are an Iron Warrior fan without telling me you are an Iron Warrior fan.
I feel like Valrak and Baldermort might be waiting for you in a dark alley.
Did you say the Lion couldn't fulfill his duty because he was too busy fighting his own chapter?
Well ... someone had to be the poster boys of each edition and it's Dorn's turn! In the 3rd edition, I'm sure it will be someone else.
Didn’t John French say he didn’t like writing perturabo and did petty dirty in “mortis” having him fuck off right in the middle of the siege of terra
tbf, Perty leaving in the middle of SoT is actually a very good character moment - where Perty could have been used to be Renegade who wasn't aligned with Chaos but instead used them for his own ends, unwilling to be anyone's tool.
If only they were as fleshed out in 40k...We got as many named characters as I do fingers on 1 hand.
I really want to see your opinion on the siege of terra. I personally find they miss more often then not
My opinion is it's awful.
@The Outer Circle when do you think the black library horus heresy novels started going to shit?
@@disconcerningcitizen2224 I put together a list, and it's long, and it starts pretty early. Probably by the 4th or 5th anthology.
@@TheOuterCircle did you ever share your list ?
@@disconcerningcitizen2224 that's easy. Book 6.
They all are terrible for the most part immediately after Fulgrim. Even Fulgrim drags on too long for such little pay off.
Actually, after remembering that Fulgrim kills an Avatar with his bare hands... Eisenstein was the last good HH book.
to resume, the horus heresy book series is the prometheus of warhammer 40.000
Dorn being on par with Sanguinius is ridiculous Hawk Boi straight up held the Eternity Gate and banished Ka Bandha and Angron then proceed to fight Horus.
Rogal Dorn's 1E incarnation was better, gave good buffs to his army, could deal with hordes and tarpits, but lost big ol' duels of fate against real beatsticks like Russ and Horus.
Okay, Fists are martin sues. Any negatives?
Dorn is the Sturm Brightblade of 40k: A one dimensional cartoon character for people who need things simple.
The writers of Horus Heresy would have benefitted from understanding real military operations as a baseline. There is still room for imaginative science fiction elements but thinking about logistics and strategy would have grounded the stories a bit better.
I think you got the wrong idea about Alexis Polux, the Crimson Fist.
He was never even supposed to be there. And he would have won the battle, not because he is somehow more brilliant than everyone else, including a primarch, but simply because he didn't let his ego cause him to make mistakes. He just followed established military doctrine, and focused on the objective.
He is an "everyday man" who is just doing his job (and doing it well). He is the polar opposite of Sigismund.
This is why he is generally well liked, even by iron Warriors players like myself.
Alexis Polux exists only to show the huge flaw that exists in both Rogal Dorn (and Sigismund and the rest of the Imperial Fists) and Perturabo.
The difference is that at the end of the battle, Perturabo analyzes and understands what happened, and how he failed. He LEARNS from this mistake, something Rogal Dorn NEVER does.
The direct consequence of this is The Iron Cage. The complete destruction of the Imperial Fists as a Legion, and a total victory for the Iron Warriors.
(Sigismund later dies exactly because of this. When he does his "pro-gamer move" to kill Abaddon the Despoiler, and fails. But the Crimson Fists survive getting overrun by an Ork WAAAGH!!! by doing the smart thing rather than the heroic thing.)
(It is possible that this even connects to how Rogal Dorn ends up getting killed, or captured.)
one of the worse things is that imperial fists fans use the siege of terra as a defence to why rogal dorn and the imperial fists are good(?). Mention the iron cage and it didnt count , mention the 1000 space marines needed per chapter and the imperial fist after the iron cage could only make 6 chapters, it doesnt count. dorn destroyed his legion to try and beat the iron wariors, where all he hadd to do was admit perurabo was better.
As an Imperial Fist fan, but not a die hard one, Iron Cage most certainly counted and it was where we saw Dorn’s flaw of extreme stubbornness be his downfall. We needed to see (and we need more cases) of his character trait becoming an issue and having an effect on his tactics.
I’ll let you read your last sentence and try to imagine ANY primarch admitting something like that
@@chaseherrington sanguinius and khan are the only ones who admitted others were better.
I have had some mane *ahem* conversations about the iron cage. Including its the reason all the crimson fists were on Rynns World at the time of the Ork invasion.
@@RazielLordOfSecrets What do you mean better? San’s humbleness and the Khan being uninterested
@@chaseherrington both.
@@chaseherrington the one thing, that I think at least, shows between Traitor Primarch writing and Loyalist is that the Traitor flaws are really thrown at us and all their mistakes are due to their flaws. The Loyalists...they get like one event that is their "moment of weakness" and for some legions (I say Russ and his blind loyalty to Horus and hatred of Magnus) it's almost painted as a victory
Why does Dorn's armor look like Custodes' instead of his own Imperial Fist design? Unlike other primarchs who wear armors with similar decoration to their primaris.
Like Rules wise it might be due to the fact that they have +1 on almost all relevant shooting.
The Kratos main battle canon included.
They can have 3++ termies that can run and have s10 Solar power gauntlets (Tartaros)
+1 WS vs traitors on the WL and his retinue (yes so that means ws 6 s10 3++ termies with their already insane leaders)
They have 2 of the best characters ruleswise, one that straigth up gives line to some of your most tanky units.
Corswain is like the second best melee character in the game, bar primarchs etc.
They get special illiastus guns iirc.
The legion in its whole, with what it gets on the tabletop vs like idk ... iron hands? Salamanders? Thousand sons, is just over the top.
Kratos is already bad, the IF version make it ok. Still bad compared to heavy support squad. Termies dont have access to solarite gauntlets only huscarls and characters. 3++ shield is good but very expensive.
Yeah remember when IG got a new tank named after Lord Solar Macharius? Military leader that I do believe had more merit and tactical genius than Rogal?
With Yarrick possibly dissapearing from 9th IG dex they SHOULD name new IG Tank Yarrick Battle Tank. Or hell. Sebastian Yarrick Haevy Assault Tank. I am already salty that they made Ragnar new arch nemesis of Thraka. I was expecting new Yarrick model but no we need Wolves to do something.
And this comes from a guy who truly likes Heresy era Wolves. I would settle on Creed Battle Tank - military genius that was able to ambush enemies with efing titan.
Love the crimson fists,love the black Templars..the The only reason i like imperial fists a bit is thanks to tts..there just a bit to yellow for me
It should’ve been Sons of Horus vs Blood Angels or even Ultramarines, but the Imperials Fists only start doing stuff in the latter half of the heresy
If they want to stick with Imperial Fists, make it against the Iron Warriors
Love!
19:55 did you ever make that video?
Blood angels should definitely be the poster boys. Yellow is a bitch to paint too. Red is easy
They are the true generic marines that Ultras get the bad rep for. It is your duty to bully impfisties, they'll probably enjoy it anyway.
I feel like the fact that they're one of the blandest of the loyalist legions is also part of the appeal. They'd already done Ultras vs Word Bearers and didn't want Ultras to be the poster boys for 30k. What's the second blandest legion in people's eyes ? Fists (note : I don't think Ultras are that bland, especially in 30k, but this is just general perspective).
As you pointed out, there's not much actual strategy to the Fists in lore. It just seems like they've been written as "they can hold a bastion, even 1 man to 1000.". It just reads like the Ultras' "tactical genius", just a quick way of explaining away how the faction is THAT good.
Late reply, I know, but I thought I'd give my two cents. As a Fists fan since seeing their retina damaging yellow in the army painter screen of Dawn of War when I was about 8, I've always found they're less of the Ultramarines tactical prowess (Logical & Practical) and more Masters of Fortification. Creating spaces that are impenetrable, and having the knowledge to be able to take one down if it's on the other end. If they were just that, I'd be happy with that and it's how I've always seen it anyway. And they're also strangely good at void warfare I guess, I can take or leave that one honestly.
I will say that thing about them holding off the iron warriors with 30 guys is just terrible writing. Make it interesting at least. If it was more about the architecture and defensive emplacements of said bastion, I'd be more inclined to be ok with it, but as it stands...yeah that's not good.
I guess I'm basically agreeing with you and many other people in this comment section, but I also wanted to give an idea of what a lot of Fists players might see in the Legion themselves. If it makes the current mary sue thing sting less, Rogal goes on to pull one of the most idiotic moves in history post-heresy and loses an obscene amount of the legion.
But yellow is hard to paint..
The ones who are higher up with a title and command the most important stuff usually are the ones praised and recognized,
Happens with officers in the military and managers in civvi street..despite the actual machinations of an individual below.....dorn being the praetorian makes him the figurehead
9 years of civil war that encompasses a lot of the galaxy ...seems incredibly short ...even when you have warp travel