I feel like its so easy to say "oh my team gets screwed by umps every game" but watching different catchers work you can see why an ump could be perfect one day and "awful" the next
Major league pitching is so fast that your brain has to fill in the gaps, since it can't actually visually track the whole flight of the ball. All of the movements around the zone influences how an umpire brain "fills in the gaps", a glove moving up through the pitch will make a human brain move the entire trajectory of the pitch up when it fills in the gaps the eye couldn't catch. It's really crazy how good these catchers have gotten at manipulating perception.
@TorchDeeJ the video shows you that catchers who are better actually change the way Umps do their jobs. So teams that teach the defensive tricks make the ump change how they work, to get them more strikes.
@@13tsted never said it didn’t bud. I just said umpires aren’t suppose to look at the catchers glove🤷♂️ again. If they did their job correctly we wouldn’t have to worry about it
Great observation! I often think the Umps are one sided but little things like this makes a whole lot of sense. Thanks for the breakdown. The video overlays are cool.
Jimmy, gotta say I love this series of videos. Reminds me of calls I used to make to my brother talking about details in sports that casual fans would never know about.
Agreed, I like that it's not overproduced, you're just building an overlay while we watch, never knew exactly how that's done, not being an editor. Right on.
As an O's fan, this game was one of the most frustrating viewing experiences I've ever witnessed. The ump scorecard was insanely tilted towards the Mets. Props to Alvarez tho
@@user-rf2fv6tf1p Taking away bad calls that cost teams games? That's sad? Really? The worst part is the way robo umps are implemented in the minors most fans wouldn't even know it's happening. I agree that catching is an art, but this is bullshit that no other sport puts up with.
@@LacSlyer its not bullshit, its part of the game. a great hitter will adjust to the umpires strike zone, you’re not costing any great teams shit. get better
@ user-rf2fv6tf1p it shouldn’t be part of the game though when you have the technology to get every call right which MLB does you need to use it not using the robo umps or at least the challenge system is ridiculous
3:27 every strike call was 100% because of HOW he framed it. Notice the different frame movement between calls strike and called ball. I teach my catcher this fluid slide motion moving towards the zone, instead of the defensive ball straight up to the zone. That was 100% the diference right there on camera
I noticed that too, even on the pitches when the other catcher started with his glove low and brought it up towards the zone, it was nowhere near as fluid as Alvarez’s framing movement
@@CSDonohue11 I have never understood that. Sometimes a commenter will literally quote a few words, verbatim, from the video, and get thousands of upvotes. For what, exactly?
risky having him play that far up. He's going to end up catching a few back swings. I'm assuming most teams that have catchers who provide value offensively tell their guys to back up to avoid getting hit.
Pitchers LOVE throwing to him, and maybe this is why, or could be this plus other reasons. Even veteran guys were raving about him as far back as his rookie year.
They love throwing to him, no question. But he's weak at throwing out runners, and he also has a lifetime post-Break AVG. of .165. Don't get too crazy about him yet.
Love this show, great epp. would be cool to get a pod with you and Bailey arguing numbers. He did a great job on Wake n Jake explaining playoff percentage odds
i remember you doing a video not too long ago about how catchers frame pitchers, and iirc you showed how alvarez does a good job coming from the bottom up to frame it, whereas other catchers snap at it and jerk it back in. This is a good example of that again.
When I did amateur umpiring, I would imagine a 3-D cube sitting over the plate. If I believed the ball entered anywhere in that cube, no matter what the spin or drop, it was a strike. The thing with these pitches, I think some touched the cube but then dropped, etc.
Hey, wanted to explore/debunk this idea. Instead of a 5 man rotation it would be a 3 man rotation. Instead of a traditional starter use 3 long relievers to go 3 innings each. In a 3 game series this would mean only 9 pitchers get used and leaves 4-5 pitchers (14 man pitching staff) to pitch as needed to account for blowups, extra innings, etc. Not sure if 2 days off would allow pitchers to throw 3 innings, I know pitch count is the bigger factor here. But with 4-5 extra pitchers in theory you could give some pitchers a third day off if needed. Let me know where I’m missing something because I know there’s a reason for this not being done besides it being bad for the game.
First, love these vids. Thanks. Huge Salvy/Royals fan. I just knew most egregious outside swing was going to be Salvy. He always seems to swing at those. But he hits them a decent number of times. For power. So funny/aggravating. Totally fits his personality.
I wonder what is the most consecutive strikes a pitcher has thrown to a batter without any 2-strike fouls. No idea how you would go about finding that.
You've convinced me that we need to have automated balls and strikes. Maybe there could be some middle ground where the umpire has a device that tells him if he's wrong or when its a strike. Something that vibrates. Pair that with a batter's ability to challenge a pitch ( think they are doing this in the minors) and we'll be way better
Alvarez trading a few extra strikes for a few extra catcher's interferences. Wouldn't be surprised to see teams start exploiting that aggressiveness in the future
In the statement Adley is more in front of the ump, that is largely because the ump sets up in different places. Adley and alverez aee in almost the same place asalvarez, but the ump is to the right of of alvarez but directly behind Adley
Jimmy, So in a nutshell what you're telling me is the umpires have no idea where the ball is and they rely on the catcher to call balls and strikes? I understand framing pitches is a thing and all, just doesn't make sense to me why it's a thing. The umpire should have the call decided before the ball ever hits the glove.
My only guess is that the ball is so fast that they only have an estimate of where the ball might have being caught, so they rely on catchers hand position to better visualize it. For example, catchers are taught to place your hand at the bottom because if the ball is low and your hand is there, the ump only sees your hand going up. If your hand is high, the ump sees you reaching down to the ball which sets him to think "the ball must have been pitched below since the catcher had to go that low to catch it". I reckon the new style of catching that Jimmy is alluding to is "not give the ump any hint of where the ball was caught by always catching on the move".
This is gonna end up on Mike Elias’ desk. Figuratively of course, unless it just gets pulled up on YT. But either way I’m here for it, Adley used to be an elite framer.
When you see the slow mo side view these pitches were all hitting the front of the plate at the knee. They are strikes. The box is not correct. From center field angle there is an illusion, the pitch looks lower because in those last 3-4 feet it is dipping a lot before it gets to the catcher.
I have never played, never watched a full game on tv, but i do watch jomboy and i started watching Trevor Bauer. He talks a lot about command being big and to make sure he focuses on the glove as a target, but his teammate never looks at the glove so i think some do and some don’t but it’s definitely easier i feel like if you have that target to aim for
Not just saying this as a Mets fan, but the umpire error to me is what makes baseball special. I personally dont want to see robo umps in the future, though I assume it's inevitable.
it wasn't the catchers. it was the betting site. he had money riding on the game and needed to make sure one team had a good game and the other didn't.
I think the umpire was just having trouble guessing. Please bring in the pitch caller next year. The umps can’t , and never could be good enough to call a correct game.
I hate this new catching style. They used to be a more subtle art to framing but now they just raise their hands up we were taught not to do that because it was disrespectful you’re supposed to roll your wrist. You catch it and roll your wrist if you see it’s high you roll down if you see it inside you roll outside, you see it outside you roll inside roll up this is exactly what we were taught not to do I don’t like it I like the subtle movements it was about fast twitch, not as ridiculous catch it below the strike zone, and then raise it up, blatantly obviously almost to the top of the sunI hate it. I hate it. I hate it. I hate it.
@@Mdautkreix I mean there is a lot of gray area. There are some rule changes I’m OK with and that makes sense and there are other that just drive me crazy if you loved the game you loved it the way it was there changing rules to get more people into the game, which sounds like a good thing, but there’s a reason that baseball was called America’s pastime and I get it. They were falling out of favor with new fans but their true fans are people that played and appreciated the game and I understand that they’re in the business to make money but they’re starting to alienate their core fanbase. And the framing thing was never a rule. It was just considered an unwritten rule. You didn’t blatantly move your glove and it drives me crazy that they’re doing it in the MLB now and I did miss Speak earlier when it’s low you don’t roll your wrist up you pull it into your chest that was framing, but the other three parts of the zone you just simply rotated your wrist as soon as you felt the ball in your glove, and that was respected moving your glove would almost always get you called ball
It is cool to see a catcher with amazing skills at pulling the ball (anyone who thinks this is framing..... Youre wrong. Theyre pulling.) But it would be way more cool to focus on the pitcher's skill and the hitter's skill. Whem the catcher is allowed to manipulate the game this way, it takes away from our ability to see the skills of the hitter without requirimg the pitcher to improve. Every ball out of the zone that gets called a strike because the catcher was slick is an opportunity stolen from the hitter and has the side effect of forcing them to expand their zone beyond the actual strike zone. There's only one halfway decent reason to keep human umpires calling balls and strikes... And thats "tradition". But there are zero actual good reasons to have humans calling balls and strikes. If the pitch was in the zone when it crossed the front of the plate, it should be a strike no matter what. If the pitch misses the zone when it crossed the plate... It should be a ball no matter what. Way too mamy important games have been ruined because we rely entirely on fallible humans who are subject to emotions, fatigue, distraction, etc. its really stupid.
As much as framing is a skill i honestly think it is detrimental to the viewing experience. I honestly think team have focused on training framing more over the past year or two and that is why umps look like shit as of late. I also think they have been bad but you have teams teaching slight of hand to catchers now
It's not cool at all. Baseball is supposed to be a battle between the pitcher and the hitter not the catcher and the umpire. I don't want to get rid of the umpire but a real-time challenge system would force umpires to do better.
Dang. I love baseball but the over-analysis is mind-numbing. On the one hand I wish people would just have fun (which is what I try to do - my job as a fan), but on the other hand the MLB is dealing with literally hundreds of millions of dollars so I understand the extreme data integration.
@@adamehling131 I don't disagree with that. Alvarez is a great framer. Just a week or 2 ago Holliday was called out on strikes twice on balls 4-5 inches outside. I'm sure it happens to most teams but it seems to happen to the O's a lot.
That seems like a failure on Rutschman's part as much as a really good job by Alvarez. Everything you could do well, Alvarez did and Rutschman didn't. I don't even see this as a failure on the umpire's part. I'm sure this is part of the point of the video, but still.
This will still be a thing, they haven't brought up fully automated, just the challenge system that they have in the minors. It won't be the super close pitches that get hit by the challenge, it'll be like the at bat that Langford had where it was 3 pitches that weren't close and he got rung up because of 3 pitches that were never strikes
Robo Umps are the DUMBEST IDEA . Let people work Let Catchers work Let Catchers Work The Umps & Work The Games There’s going to be Good and Bad Is what it is It’s all apart of The Game .
The game within the game. I love these psychological breakdowns.
I feel like its so easy to say "oh my team gets screwed by umps every game" but watching different catchers work you can see why an ump could be perfect one day and "awful" the next
Major league pitching is so fast that your brain has to fill in the gaps, since it can't actually visually track the whole flight of the ball. All of the movements around the zone influences how an umpire brain "fills in the gaps", a glove moving up through the pitch will make a human brain move the entire trajectory of the pitch up when it fills in the gaps the eye couldn't catch. It's really crazy how good these catchers have gotten at manipulating perception.
@@adamleblanc5294 I agree. It always looks slower on TV. I don't know why, but it does.
yeah but if umpires do their job correctly. it shouldnt matter
@TorchDeeJ the video shows you that catchers who are better actually change the way Umps do their jobs. So teams that teach the defensive tricks make the ump change how they work, to get them more strikes.
@@13tsted never said it didn’t bud. I just said umpires aren’t suppose to look at the catchers glove🤷♂️ again. If they did their job correctly we wouldn’t have to worry about it
Great observation! I often think the Umps are one sided but little things like this makes a whole lot of sense. Thanks for the breakdown. The video overlays are cool.
Jimmy, gotta say I love this series of videos. Reminds me of calls I used to make to my brother talking about details in sports that casual fans would never know about.
Agreed, I like that it's not overproduced, you're just building an overlay while we watch, never knew exactly how that's done, not being an editor. Right on.
As an O's fan, this game was one of the most frustrating viewing experiences I've ever witnessed. The ump scorecard was insanely tilted towards the Mets. Props to Alvarez tho
This whole series was ridiculous. I’m taking a break from baseball for a bit. The product the umps created was miserable to watch.
As a catcher, I loved this. As an O’s fan, I hated this. Great work as always.
i cant believe people argue for robo umps. catching is an art …. with robo umps you take away that entire aspect from the game sad
@@user-rf2fv6tf1p Taking away bad calls that cost teams games? That's sad? Really? The worst part is the way robo umps are implemented in the minors most fans wouldn't even know it's happening. I agree that catching is an art, but this is bullshit that no other sport puts up with.
@@LacSlyer its not bullshit, its part of the game. a great hitter will adjust to the umpires strike zone, you’re not costing any great teams shit. get better
@ user-rf2fv6tf1p it shouldn’t be part of the game though when you have the technology to get every call right which MLB does you need to use it not using the robo umps or at least the challenge system is ridiculous
Framecisco Alvarez
3:27 every strike call was 100% because of HOW he framed it. Notice the different frame movement between calls strike and called ball. I teach my catcher this fluid slide motion moving towards the zone, instead of the defensive ball straight up to the zone. That was 100% the diference right there on camera
I noticed that too, even on the pitches when the other catcher started with his glove low and brought it up towards the zone, it was nowhere near as fluid as Alvarez’s framing movement
jimmy did you swish your mouth with coffee at the beginning brother
He’s a menace.
Yum
The umpire being closer also means the ball appears higher and closer to him than it does when he’s sitting back.
Jomboy said that
@@jimwertherlol. Exactly
There’s always the repeat that somehow gets likes
@@CSDonohue11
I have never understood that. Sometimes a commenter will literally quote a few words, verbatim, from the video, and get thousands of upvotes. For what, exactly?
@@jimwerther Yea. Me neither.
Just another situation that shows how simple most of the public really is.
@@CSDonohue11
Reminds me of the George Carlin line about the average person.
One of your best videos ever. That catcher comparison is incredible. Great job. Keep it up.
I can just imagine the massive increase in offense with the challenge system
Perfect analysis here. Love it
This is why I’m so excited about Alvarez and his future career. He’s an excellent framer with a solid arm and serious 20 plus homer pop
risky having him play that far up. He's going to end up catching a few back swings. I'm assuming most teams that have catchers who provide value offensively tell their guys to back up to avoid getting hit.
@@brandondillman5841 I know that’s happened before with other catchers obviously I wouldn’t want him getting hurt
Pitchers LOVE throwing to him, and maybe this is why, or could be this plus other reasons. Even veteran guys were raving about him as far back as his rookie year.
They love throwing to him, no question. But he's weak at throwing out runners, and he also has a lifetime post-Break AVG. of .165. Don't get too crazy about him yet.
Love this show, great epp. would be cool to get a pod with you and Bailey arguing numbers. He did a great job on Wake n Jake explaining playoff percentage odds
Would love to see any Brewers catchers compared to any others, like Alvarez or Rutschmann
Came from the breakdown video. This is great reminds me of old homeboy
Sounds like Jimmy is saying "Tum Payne" ahah
i remember you doing a video not too long ago about how catchers frame pitchers, and iirc you showed how alvarez does a good job coming from the bottom up to frame it, whereas other catchers snap at it and jerk it back in. This is a good example of that again.
When I did amateur umpiring, I would imagine a 3-D cube sitting over the plate. If I believed the ball entered anywhere in that cube, no matter what the spin or drop, it was a strike. The thing with these pitches, I think some touched the cube but then dropped, etc.
I would love to see the best 1 game major league careers
Hopefully Alvarez doesn't get his arm broken 😬
Hey, wanted to explore/debunk this idea.
Instead of a 5 man rotation it would be a 3 man rotation. Instead of a traditional starter use 3 long relievers to go 3 innings each.
In a 3 game series this would mean only 9 pitchers get used and leaves 4-5 pitchers (14 man pitching staff) to pitch as needed to account for blowups, extra innings, etc.
Not sure if 2 days off would allow pitchers to throw 3 innings, I know pitch count is the bigger factor here. But with 4-5 extra pitchers in theory you could give some pitchers a third day off if needed.
Let me know where I’m missing something because I know there’s a reason for this not being done besides it being bad for the game.
Don't tell Manfred!
First, love these vids. Thanks. Huge Salvy/Royals fan. I just knew most egregious outside swing was going to be Salvy. He always seems to swing at those. But he hits them a decent number of times. For power. So funny/aggravating. Totally fits his personality.
You should dig into why Javy Baez can't hit anymore.
I wonder what is the most consecutive strikes a pitcher has thrown to a batter without any 2-strike fouls. No idea how you would go about finding that.
I'ma tattoo it.🤣🤣
You've convinced me that we need to have automated balls and strikes. Maybe there could be some middle ground where the umpire has a device that tells him if he's wrong or when its a strike. Something that vibrates. Pair that with a batter's ability to challenge a pitch ( think they are doing this in the minors) and we'll be way better
Alvarez trading a few extra strikes for a few extra catcher's interferences. Wouldn't be surprised to see teams start exploiting that aggressiveness in the future
In the statement Adley is more in front of the ump, that is largely because the ump sets up in different places. Adley and alverez aee in almost the same place asalvarez, but the ump is to the right of of alvarez but directly behind Adley
the players must hate you for revealing all their secret strats
Sorry that game was horribly called. He missed calls all around the zone, not just at the bottom of the frame.
I feel like Bailey would get those too, would like to see a framing playoffs of all the good framers in the season
The catcher skills are really cool, that's why I'd prefer the Challenge system over ABS
Jimmy, So in a nutshell what you're telling me is the umpires have no idea where the ball is and they rely on the catcher to call balls and strikes? I understand framing pitches is a thing and all, just doesn't make sense to me why it's a thing. The umpire should have the call decided before the ball ever hits the glove.
My only guess is that the ball is so fast that they only have an estimate of where the ball might have being caught, so they rely on catchers hand position to better visualize it. For example, catchers are taught to place your hand at the bottom because if the ball is low and your hand is there, the ump only sees your hand going up. If your hand is high, the ump sees you reaching down to the ball which sets him to think "the ball must have been pitched below since the catcher had to go that low to catch it". I reckon the new style of catching that Jimmy is alluding to is "not give the ump any hint of where the ball was caught by always catching on the move".
This is gonna end up on Mike Elias’ desk. Figuratively of course, unless it just gets pulled up on YT. But either way I’m here for it, Adley used to be an elite framer.
When you see the slow mo side view these pitches were all hitting the front of the plate at the knee. They are strikes. The box is not correct.
From center field angle there is an illusion, the pitch looks lower because in those last 3-4 feet it is dipping a lot before it gets to the catcher.
As an umpire automated is coming but it's a bit off for a bit since in/out is good but up/down the computer struggles real time.
5:36 dont some pitchers need a target? I dont know much about baseball.
I have never played, never watched a full game on tv, but i do watch jomboy and i started watching Trevor Bauer. He talks a lot about command being big and to make sure he focuses on the glove as a target, but his teammate never looks at the glove so i think some do and some don’t but it’s definitely easier i feel like if you have that target to aim for
Catcher showed the target long enough for the pitcher to see before dropping the glove down
Not just saying this as a Mets fan, but the umpire error to me is what makes baseball special. I personally dont want to see robo umps in the future, though I assume it's inevitable.
Honestly the umpire was all over the place yesterday I agree with the low calls but he had no command of the high or inside strike at all
it wasn't the catchers. it was the betting site. he had money riding on the game and needed to make sure one team had a good game and the other didn't.
How is Baez not in the final part of the video?
Adley is a Silverado. Alvarez is the Corvette. The latter fools you into believing you’re James Bond.🤵♂️⚾️👈
I get your point about skill sets..but if I learn to cheat really well..its integrity?
Someone tell Arenado those first two were strikes
I think the umpire was just having trouble guessing. Please bring in the pitch caller next year. The umps can’t , and never could be good enough to call a correct game.
whats sad about this entire breakdown is you are saying the ump is getting a better look, and he 100% is, and yet he is just wrong lol
I hate this new catching style. They used to be a more subtle art to framing but now they just raise their hands up we were taught not to do that because it was disrespectful you’re supposed to roll your wrist. You catch it and roll your wrist if you see it’s high you roll down if you see it inside you roll outside, you see it outside you roll inside roll up this is exactly what we were taught not to do I don’t like it I like the subtle movements it was about fast twitch, not as ridiculous catch it below the strike zone, and then raise it up, blatantly obviously almost to the top of the sunI hate it. I hate it. I hate it. I hate it.
All sports are changing in annoying ways like this. Remember when there used to be carries and travel calls in basketball? Defense in football? 🤷🏽♂️
@@Mdautkreix I mean there is a lot of gray area. There are some rule changes I’m OK with and that makes sense and there are other that just drive me crazy if you loved the game you loved it the way it was there changing rules to get more people into the game, which sounds like a good thing, but there’s a reason that baseball was called America’s pastime and I get it. They were falling out of favor with new fans but their true fans are people that played and appreciated the game and I understand that they’re in the business to make money but they’re starting to alienate their core fanbase. And the framing thing was never a rule. It was just considered an unwritten rule. You didn’t blatantly move your glove and it drives me crazy that they’re doing it in the MLB now and I did miss Speak earlier when it’s low you don’t roll your wrist up you pull it into your chest that was framing, but the other three parts of the zone you just simply rotated your wrist as soon as you felt the ball in your glove, and that was respected moving your glove would almost always get you called ball
It is cool to see a catcher with amazing skills at pulling the ball (anyone who thinks this is framing..... Youre wrong. Theyre pulling.)
But it would be way more cool to focus on the pitcher's skill and the hitter's skill. Whem the catcher is allowed to manipulate the game this way, it takes away from our ability to see the skills of the hitter without requirimg the pitcher to improve.
Every ball out of the zone that gets called a strike because the catcher was slick is an opportunity stolen from the hitter and has the side effect of forcing them to expand their zone beyond the actual strike zone.
There's only one halfway decent reason to keep human umpires calling balls and strikes... And thats "tradition". But there are zero actual good reasons to have humans calling balls and strikes.
If the pitch was in the zone when it crossed the front of the plate, it should be a strike no matter what. If the pitch misses the zone when it crossed the plate... It should be a ball no matter what.
Way too mamy important games have been ruined because we rely entirely on fallible humans who are subject to emotions, fatigue, distraction, etc. its really stupid.
maybe that ump is just bad judging to his left side coz most if not all the ball ball calls were to righty batter
Day 1 of asking for Trevor Bauer 19k league record!
I think lettuce is bad on sliders, but now we know Cabbage is terrible with sliders.
Did jimmy say skenes is 2/3 of the way to emaculating cabbage? That just sounds wrong.
Part of me thinks it's cool and part of me thinks it's cheating
Two Jomboys talking at the same time weird asf 😂
How about get all the clips together before you post a video
As much as framing is a skill i honestly think it is detrimental to the viewing experience. I honestly think team have focused on training framing more over the past year or two and that is why umps look like shit as of late. I also think they have been bad but you have teams teaching slight of hand to catchers now
It's not cool at all. Baseball is supposed to be a battle between the pitcher and the hitter not the catcher and the umpire. I don't want to get rid of the umpire but a real-time
challenge system would force umpires to do better.
Dang. I love baseball but the over-analysis is mind-numbing. On the one hand I wish people would just have fun (which is what I try to do - my job as a fan), but on the other hand the MLB is dealing with literally hundreds of millions of dollars so I understand the extreme data integration.
Umps have been screwing the O's all season with balls and strikes. This game happens all year
Alvarez is also a fantastic framer I can’t speak to the Os all year but Alvarez has been doing stuff Like this since he was called up
@@adamehling131 I don't disagree with that. Alvarez is a great framer. Just a week or 2 ago Holliday was called out on strikes twice on balls 4-5 inches outside. I'm sure it happens to most teams but it seems to happen to the O's a lot.
@@Cvcarlson27 yeah as a guardians fan i remember that, since y’all were playing the guards lol
That seems like a failure on Rutschman's part as much as a really good job by Alvarez. Everything you could do well, Alvarez did and Rutschman didn't.
I don't even see this as a failure on the umpire's part.
I'm sure this is part of the point of the video, but still.
This is why i dont want robo umps. This is a skill.
This will still be a thing, they haven't brought up fully automated, just the challenge system that they have in the minors. It won't be the super close pitches that get hit by the challenge, it'll be like the at bat that Langford had where it was 3 pitches that weren't close and he got rung up because of 3 pitches that were never strikes
is it cool to fool old men? no, no it's not.
Robo Umps are the DUMBEST IDEA .
Let people work Let Catchers work
Let Catchers Work The Umps
& Work The Games
There’s going to be Good and Bad
Is what it is
It’s all apart of The Game .
HELL NO TO ROBO UMPS BUT I WILL TAKE THE CHALLEGE SYSTEM
First!
Unfortunately the bots beat you, Kevin.
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