How Much Horsepower Does Your Shop Vac Really Have:
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- čas přidán 10. 03. 2020
- I bought two shop vacs and measured the horse power. The results will surprise you! It feels so good to know the truth.
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Notes:
1. The ultimate guide to using electric motors.
• Ultimate Beginners Gui...
2. How to measure horsepower in the home shop.
• How to Measure Horse P...
3. Wet Dry Vac review by popular mechanic
www.popularmechanics.com/home...
Answering common questions.
Why does my shop Vac draw less power when I block the hose?
It is the reverse of what you might think. When you cover the end the air "around" the impeller is no longer trading places with new air... and it is already at speed so it doesn't need to be accelerated. That means the motor has to do less work... the power needed goes down and the speed goes up because it is "easier" for the motor to push air that is already moving. That second part is unique to universal motors. That is the speed going up noticeably. When you release the hose end new air comes in and it takes more work to get that air up to speed... thus the impeller slows down and the motor is working harder (more horsepower)
Technical corrections
Nothing yet - Jak na to + styl
Jeremy, You did a terrific job with the shop vac testing! Some pretty crazy claims from manufacturers regarding the products they're trying to sell. Thanks again!
Hmmm looks like you might have to test vacuums... Maybe?
Not only was I about to say "you remind me of project farm" but I see you here. Also I read that comment in your voice.
It’s kinda funny because the absolute maximum on 120v is less than 2hp assuming 80% efficiency. The max on 240v 3 phase is just over 15 horsepower(80% efficiency) and I don’t see any shop vacs on 240v 3 phase
@@csnider_1281 The 240v 3ph shop vac you speak of is the Binford 9000
@@varmint243davev7 ough ough ough (Tim the tool man taylor grunt).
You need to maximize every factor in their favour. You need the maximum allowable input voltage (about 127 volts) measured the motor terminals, no voltage drop in the line, with the motor cooled way down (lower resistance). Then just a very small flywheel as the load, precisely measure it's speed via computer as it ramps up, so you can measure the angular acceleration. From that calculate the motor's torque based on flywheel and motor rotor's angular moment of inertia. This *might* just get you to the rated value, and you will be able to run the test more than once. The motor will only survive "peak load" for maybe a second or two, so you really can only have it as a startup transient.
I was thinking the same thing with the voltage input. But I was thinking more along 220V. But with motors, 115VAC and 225VAC can make a biiiig difference on the output.
I hadn't thought of the cooled coils, however this makes a lot of sense. More heat equals more amps wasted
And I'm almost completely lost on the angular moment of inertia 😜
Either it's the startup power for like 0.2seconds, or it's the amount of power it can make while decelerating from full speed to 0 over 0.02 seconds.
Seems more like they are using peak voltage instead of rms and maximum current available from a socket.
Matthias I am a subscriber to your channel you should try to prove or disprove the claims. Maybe we all learn something.
Sorry I didnt read your comment first. Sililar to mine, you have a mechanical background and mine is electrical. I think we were aiming at the same thing from the two different sides.
Cheers,
kevin
Oh, you've got it all wrong. It's not the actual motor power they're measuring. No way. 4.5HP is the number of horses you can scare when you turn on the vacuum.
I really want to see how they scare half a horse XD
4.5 Horse Panic
You said the same thing that I was thinking a minute ago. If I can't hook a hose to the exhaust vent of that vacuum and use it to blow four and a half horses out of the way..... Then it's a scam!
ROTFLMHO!!!
😂
Let's make an actual 6.5 hp one and see how much that really feels like
YES
*put tube against skin
Wow, that sucked my blood cells through my skin, that's one powerful shop-vac. 😅😅
ho boy...
Well using the 750watts per hp formula. Such a motor would need to be rated 4,875watts.
Of which is far higher than any household in the USA can handle on standard 115-120v AC. Why? Because normal household wiring to those outlets allows for a maximum continuous draw of 12 Amps. Which means 1,380-1,440 watts max.
However using 230-240v AC it would be possible to try such a heavy load with adequate wiring and breakers.
At the doubled mains voltage 21-20Amps would be required which is less than a households central heat uses and likely less than central AC. I've heard of people installing 40A 230-240v ports in the garages or just outside their homes for charging their EV 'electric vehicle.'
You may be wondering why the variance in voltage for normal household mains power?
It seems the distance from and number of individual homes using a power line step down transformer matter in how much voltage your home actually gets.
Sucks nuts and bolts off the bench....from the neighbors house....through the walls. Shop Vac: THIS is 6.5hp...in real life.
Air compressor manufactures went through lawsuits because of this deceptive practice. They're are picking and choosing the numbers from different scenarios. They're using the Max watts the motor was drawing when it stalled. Your meter showed around 26amps when it shut off, so lets say 28amps max current you can dump into it. 28amps x120v =3360watts. Divide that by 746 and you get 4.5horse power.
so it's a 0.87 hp vacuum, but a 4.5 hp space heater.
No matter what, its a deceptive marketing and sales practice that's used in most electrical and electronics especially audio power amplifiers. Its bs to trick the consumer with NO electrical background. Period!!!
power output is hp. Using power drawn is not how hp is defined. Using that logic I can short out a transformer and claim a 20hp motor.
Bravo!
28 amp draw would trip a 20 amp circuit breaker, which is the max current available for common 120 volt circuits.
Damn! Jeremy, I wish that you lived next door to me. I'd mow your lawn every week if I could hang out at your workshop and learn stuff. And, hell, I'm 81 years old.
Respect!
You know you're in the presence of greatness when the man's video gets comments from both Project Farm AND Matthias Wandel.
That's cool. 😎
Jeremys comments are always a “where’s Waldo” of amazing makers, and engineering creators… lol it’s crazy.
This has ALWAYS made me furrow my brow on just about any electric tool that is rated above ~3HP and runs on a regular 15/20amp circuit. The math just doesn't add up
Great point! The most you could draw before tripping a 15 amp circuit breaker is 2.4 horsepower, or 3.2 on a 20 amp breaker- and that's assuming no other loads on that circuit.
no.... the starting current is 100 amps for like 1 milisec, which is how they get 6.5hp
@@nicksgarage8295 if they are rating their motor for a 100 amp draw, they would be able to claim ~15hp
@@nicksgarage8295 Wrong, Nick. You just made that up.
Consumer market vs Industrial markets. One customers group is smarter than the other.
Haven't watched the whole video yet but I can tell you already that's going to be seahorse power.
LOL, actually!
Just FYI ... These vac's aren't rated in Horsepower, ... they are Rated in "PEAK HP" or "Peak Horsepower" ... Peak HP is a measurement of maximum torque achievable and is a test done in a laboratory on a machine that feeds the motor with as much AMPS as it can take and at the same time appling resistants on the motor to measure the units torque potential that measurement is the Motors PEAK HP ... you will see this measurement used on some kitchen appliances, Blenders, Air Management tools and compressors .
@Ricky Barber ... there's nothing deceitful about it .. a bigger number gets you in general more vac for your money ... its simply a Good, Better Best rating .. as Peak HP goes up .. again in general size, motor windings, features, motor life time, endurance, all go up with it ... but ya .. actual performance at the tool will very ... you want a vac with high sealed pressure for picking up water get one with a 1.25" hose ... ya want to pick up drywall dust you need high CFM get one with a 2.5" hose ... you understand the actual performance is shaped even by the tool you use with it Right? ... last time "PEAK HP" .. is not a Horsepower rating ... and please tell me you don't think a Horsepower rating alone is indicative of how fast your car goes.
@@logun24x7 You're right, but when they print it on the box like that, they are clearly IMPLYING something else. The average customer assumes that the numbers on the box actually mean something measurable. The manufacturers know this or they wouldn't put it on there. It's pure BS meant to deceive.
@@alexmaclean1 .. I know it's fun to be a weekend engineer and get outraged these days about one thing or another but clearly there is no attempt at deception here, its there as an vacuum industry comp. rating .. It's printed right on the box that PHP (Peak HP) is not operational horsepower ... it's on every page of their website and you can look at any unit on their site to see the actual operational ratings , CFM, SP and Air Watts of every unit they offer with an explanation of what each of these ratings meen , you can even have a read of the owner's manual before you buy ...
if they're trying to deceive people they're doing a shitty job of it.
www.shopvac.com/product/shop-vac-eagle-eye-14-gallon-5-5-peak-hp-stainless-steel-wet-dry-vac-catnum:5801210
Horsepower Rating
**"Peak Horsepower" (PHP) is a term used in the wet-dry vacuum industry for consumer comparison purposes. It does not denote the operational horsepower of a wet-dry vacuum but rather the horsepower output of a motor, including the motor’s inertial contribution, achieved in laboratory testing. In actual use, Shop-Vac motors do not operate at the peak horsepower shown.
CFM (Cubic Feet Per Minute)
CFM is a measure of the quantity of air moved by the vacuum motor at a particular system load, such as 2-1/2" orifice. Your actual system load is determined by the type, size and length of the hose used, the accessory tool used and the filter system used. A dirty filter system can drastically affect the suction and air flow. The filters need to be cleaned regularly and replaced as necessary to avoid reduced suction and air flow.
SP (Sealed Pressure)
Suction pressure represents how far up a glass tube a vacuum motor will lift a column of water. This function is measured in inches. Maximum suction pressure or sealed water lift is obtained at zero air flow. Suction pressure decreases as air flow increases.
Vacuum Performance (Peak Air Watts)
Vacuum performance or air power is the rate of work performed by a vacuum cleaner. Air power is a function of suction and air flow at an operating point. Air power is reduced by dirty filters, leaks and attachments used.
6.5HP is so great. I'd love to burn my house down with that 40+ amps from my 120V socket.
I see you came up with the same amperage as I did.
Make sure you bypass the 15 or 20 amp circuit breaker so you can get the full "burn down the house" experience! LOL.
@@mckenziekeith7434 Get yourself one of them fancy "slow blow" circuit breakers
If I was trying to burn down my house, I think I would just bypass the breaker box altogether. The slow blow circuit breaker doesn't allow enough current for long enough to get a good electrical fire started. LOL.
When buying that shopvac, ask Homedepot what isle the 40 amp breakers are in
I've been an industrial electrician for over 30 years. Thanks for doing this test, it proves what I've always known, peak horse power is nothing but marketing hype.
Peak anything is fraudulent. Peak Psi and Gpms on a pressure washer especially
* *MOTOR WHINES IN PAIN* * - CZcams autocaptions : Music, Applause.
*MOTOR SCREAMS IN AGONY*
Normally, I'm in the #NoMoreCraptions camp, but I might have to make an exception for stuff like this... that's funny. :)
Probably thought it was dubstep 😂
You should do a collaboration with the “Project Farm” channel on this one!!! Also, super cool to have Matthias W commenting here too 😊
Matt Jones that’s what I was thinking too
wow! you have listed mt fav. tech youtubers.! Just subscribed to Jeremy's channel now. Todd from Project Farm is fantastic! Matthias Wandel is nothing short of magic!
You may want to check out Marius Hornberger too..
I second that!
this was my first thought as well.
100% agreed! Love that dude and now coming to like this channels work as well!
I think i know how they can arrive at those numbers looking at their online statements!
"includes inertia" so im pretty sure that they spin the motor to maximum rpm on a stand and jam on the brake (dyno load) and just measure that instantaneous peak torque at the maximum rpm! At 16,000rpm it only needs 1.47lb/ft for 4.5hp so that method seems very plausible!
🤣 Cheating like crazy
Evil Me that’s exactly what I was thinking as well
That sounds like a really great guess at how it's done to get the highest number. Load it up with as much rotational energy as possible, jam on the brake, and measure the instantaneous torque. I'm sure they have the impeller blade on it too to contribute that tiny amount more of rotational energy. All for bigger marketing wank numbers. Don't you just love marketers (and lawyers)?
Exactly my thought!!
Since they seem to be calling it peak power I did a quick calculation based on 115Vrms and 20A (someone can use the correct US voltage if they like) and got around 4.3 hp by using 115* sqrt(2) to get peak voltage.
Seems like they may be using the same garbage calculation that stereo makers use to get PMPO.
@@Spectral_Penguin As he mentions in the video, it's really nothing to do with the input power (as the motor is only ~50% efficient after all). As Evil Me mentioned, the key is in them mentioning including inertia in the calculation.
I enjoyed the way you put this video together and how you explained each step of the process. I also like the fact that it didn't take 9 hours to do it. Plenty of information and a clean, concise delivery. I plan on watching more of your videos soon.
I asked the salesman one day how they could use a 16 ga. cord on a 5hp shop vac. My thumbnail calculation was (746w X 5 hp) = 3730 watts. 3,730 watts divided by 120 volts came to 31.08 amps. A 16 gauge cord wouldn't come close to carrying that load. Of course he had no answer. Factored peak horsepower= imaginary horsepower.
Your videos are great! Keep up the good, honest, scientific work.
Great video Jeremy, I've always been dubious of the 6 hp on my shop-vac.
Cool to see you on here. Love your channel also!
Yeah. Here is my 3hp tablesaw motor that I can barely lift (I mean the motor by itself) and here is my 6hp shopvac that I can lift the whole thing with one hand and it runs on 120V? I should upgrade my unisaw to 6HP by putting the shopvac motor in it. LOL.
@@mckenziekeith7434 my thoughts exactly. I would never expect big power, from such a light product.
@@mckenziekeith7434 What I think is that the Chinese manufacturer ships the motor in watts i.e. 650 or 450.
The manufacturer's uninformed worker made a layman mistake in excel when dealing with labeling while converting to US units of hp assuming they googled hp and watts was a unit of power. Did not understand the conversion. Messed with the decimal to make it look like hp 6.50 4.50. Presto 647 watt motor is now a 6.5hp beast. US needs to update to International System of Units if confusion is to be reduced.
@@bitterlyhonest2307 Haha! We can dream. Apparently there is some procedure or process the manufacturers use to determine the HP rating on the vacuums. But it is totally divorced from all reality and engineering practice.
Actual Science vs Marketing... Good job Jeremy. So cool!!! 👍🏾
True, but simple math would have debunked this very easily as well. Not sure how they get away with this blatant false advertising.
Love how humble you are brother. Very professional and honest. Truely a breath of fresh air. Thanks for the knowledge
Jeremy, I am a retired Mechanical Engineer, and I can tell you that you are amazing. Please continue with these Great Videos. You teach me something every time I watch them.
The key word in the sales pitch is inertia. When they test the motor they spin it up then “slam the brakes” on the dyno then for that millisecond where the motor is still spinning 15000 rpm and making 1.6 ftlb of torque. The energy that they use to find these results has nothing to do with the power of the motor but with the energy it can store in its rotational mass aka inertia. They claim this figure to be relevant to vacuums when the suction is completely cut off it uses the energy stored in the spinning motor to add some extra umph. I am not agreeing with their methods or figure validity but that is how and why they do it.
They're essentially forced to test like that and give those numbers, even if the company doesn't like the testing method and would like to give a real number. Since every other shop vac is rated like that, they won't make any sales unless they test the same way. It does at least give some limited ability to compare because they all test in the same way. Really it's a matter for some regulatory body to fix, give stringent test parameters that must be followed. Unfortunately regulations and consumer protection is pretty poor in the US.
They really should call it BHP since that's what we commonly use
Ryan and that’s why brigg and Stratton decided fo advertise in torque instead of hp. It’s more important in lawn and gardening stuff.
I suppose they could just spin up some (relatively) huge flywheel to buff those numbers up, basically arbitrarily. Might take a while to turn on your vac, and make it actually suck less though.
@@xeigen2 My old craftsman is not some flimsy plastic piece of shit and it only lists 2.5hp and I have stood on it as a step stool. It also lists 140mph of suction. I actually believe those numbers because it is powerful as hell. This little piece of shit probably barely sucks up a puddle. My craftsman could actually pump whole buckets of water through a 2.5-3" hose there is no way this thing can do that without breaking suction.
I never really thought about it until you mentioned it. I work in Filters and we have a 5 hp motor for an entire booth, and it is quite a bit larger than any Shop Vac. Personally I think they would do better to rate the vacuum in terms of static pressure it can hold at a certain flow rate (i.e. 1.0" H2O & 500 CFM). There may be better metrics, but that at least would allow one to calculate the 'suckiness' of the vacuum.
My new favorite CZcamsr and topics!
Pleasure to watch and thanks!
Intelligent, kind, honest, if there is such a thing as perfect... I'd have to say your reviews are it. You do it the way it should be done. No brand bashing, considerate, pure honest fun. Great job. Keep 'em coming.
Jeremy you have taught me so much about electric motors. Thank you so much.
Im an electric motor winder and mechanic and I know we use the general rule of at 120V 12A is 1HP and at 230V its 6A for 1HP. But those also aren't usually universal motors but dedicated 1ph motors.
I appreciate the way you give numbers over the phone: “dash four five zero.” I am a tech support person myself and you would be surprised how much time clear enunciation and stating each digit in a number saves.
I was always leery about these claimed numbers being a retired hvac contractor. a 3/4 horsepower electric motor in a furnace pulled 12 amps on a 120 volt circuit. thanks. great video!
Yea, what is the actual SUCKOLOGICAL FORCE ? Suckosity 2 ? Bar's ? Inches Mercury ? Water Ft ? How many Golf Balls thru a Garden hose ?
Flow rate would probably be a better metric of performance in this instance.
Matthias has some good testing methodology on his various dust collector builds. czcams.com/users/Matthiaswandelsearch?query=dust
Inches of water column at zero flow and CFM with normal hose attached. Those are the two suckological force parameters I would be interested in. I think my rigid shop vac can pull like 50 inches of water column. Don't know the CFM.
@@mckenziekeith7434 YES, *these two factors* are what defines a 'vacuum cleaner'...it's deceitful that these aren't the advertised parameters for the device. By the way, 50 inches of water is 50/408 = 12% of the maximum possible vacuum. So we don't really create a 'strong vacuum' with such devices.
How many Bowling Balls is the Benchmark. Whatever? They SUCK!
Really nicely done, and I can remember have a discussion about this very thing with my dad 50 years ago. Peak HP seems to be some sort of, primarily BS, momentary rating where the motor is severely overloaded and the inertia of the spinning motor drives the load. In theory they could essentially rate any spinning motor at whatever peak HP rating they want, since, if you load the motor up fast enough while it is spinning, you will get nearly infinite torque, for a moment, until the motor stops.
This rating was something that Sears started back in the 50s or 60s, and it has become industry standard nonsense ever since.
I am so glad I found you videos. I love your information you provide thank you. The calls you made to customer service was great. I look forward to seeing your video and you have a watchers for you videos, thank you.
I have not seen a new video from you in a while. But i have appreciated most all of the past videos, so of course i am looking forward to this one!
Jeremy, in the text the indicated the motor's inertial contribution is included in the 4.5 hp. It seems like this would have included the inertia of the impeller as well. But likely not in the way you were testing. They likely use some hokey contraption to rapidly decelerate the motor shaft and the impeller and all then measure that as some horsepower rating over a very short duration. Likely nothing like the way you tried to test it. Love you set up. And this was a good video.
I can imagine how this marketing would go down in the EU: "that's a very cool claim, but keep it for your Tinder profile, not on consumer products". Vacuum cleaners have limited electrical power here, with the limit going down over time to force efficiency innovation.
Are they not marked the same in the EU
James Holbrook they’re not, no. This is actually the first time I’ve seen this marking for a vacuum. In the EU, you mark the input power of the motor in Watts - the actual power it draws from the wall. And as nraynaud1 said, this figure is limited by law so that vacuum maunfacturers are forced to use better quality motors to increase efficiency.
What they usually tell you when you look at the specs is the maximum vacuum it can pull. This number is quite meaningful imo, if you compare two similarly sized vacuums with the same power rating, as it tells you a lot about the efficiency of the motor and airflow design.
Efficiency innovation good one. Ha.
Gold wound coils,vacuum pumped case, or better yet why not a room temp super conductor
Yeah, but EU uses 220 volt, so it must be 9HP, peak right?
@@jeffjohnson2792 no, we generally don't really pull more than 2.5kW from an outlet.
I like how you put so much effort into something that really does. It matter and cane out with a great result
This was one of the best videos that I have ever seen. You sure seem to know your stuff. I am a long retired electrician and I would have loved to have had you as a instructor at trade school. Your no bull **** way of explaining is refreshing. I don’t know if you are a teacher but you should be one
Oh im so glad you did this video! "I've been studying electric motors for several years and I have no idea what they just said..." ShopVac mission achieved lol
AvE would approve of Jeremy "letting the smoke out."
@Yuck Foutube smokin pixies, of the angried up variety 😅
Great video. I like that you used actual results to refute the corporate marketing BS. I put you right up there with AVE for using your knowledge, skills (and shop) to keep the public informed. Thanks Jeremy.
Love how you exposed the farse of HP on shop vacs! I always wondered how they can be so light and have that much HP, but never thought about testing or looking deeper as you did. Bully for you Jeremy! Well done! Oh, and I'll be sure to share this information. Actually, I'm damned excited to do so.
WOOOO!!! That was soo cool! I always wanted to do a distructive test on the motor! :) thanks for the very informative, fun and well made video!!
1 HP 746 watts just the way it is great video.
I always learn something watching your videos. Thanks for sharing Volts X Amps = Watts . I wrote it down. Now I can figure out what size portable generator I need to run my refrigerator, I think
Keep in mind that the compressor start up current will be higher than the fridge label. So get a bigger generator than the minimum required. Motor startup currents are quite high.
I don't have the answer of how big it needs to be, but I have stalled generators before with air conditioners before. The engine just could not keep up with the startup load even thought it could handle easily the steady state load. This was a big massive 4 cyc 18KVA Onan and it died like you dumped the clutch in third gear.
Kevin Hanna Running amperage x 3 x120 will give you the wattage your generator will have to provide to start the fridge compressor.
This was really interesting that this popped into my recommended. Just today I was using one of my shop vacs and of course noticed the absurd HP number on it. I always knew that was a lie just from knowing what I know about electricity but for whatever reason it hit me today. Anyway, so glad I found I found your channel. It's right up my alley.
Thanks for testing, i was totally shocked!
The "inertia" thing here includes the entire assembly... you need to think in terms of torque multiplication and increased inertia from the entire rotating mass.
4.5PHP would then be determined by spinning the motor at max speed with the vacuum assembly attached then trying to stop it from the outer edge of the assembly. The diameter and mass of the assembly creates an instant where the torque applied and the RPM calculates to roughly 4.5HP.
Imagine measuring electrical devices the same way. Just charge up a capacitor and then short circuit discharge it to get peak megawatts power.
@@ChristophPech Slam the car against a granite boulder at full speed to get some nice deceleration peak G forces for the marketing department...
Awesome video. Thanks for digging into this.
At this point the term "HP" might as well be stand for Hit Points or something else seeing as it's so arbitrary lol
stumbled across this video for I don't know what reason. but im glad I did. I was just looking for a new wet/dry vac and was specifically basing my search off HP. keep up the good work. !
GREAT to have you back, Jeremy.
It’s only been two weeks lol
I’m pretty sure the motor is from Ametek. They make the motors for craftsman vacuums,central vac system,dirt devil,and royal vacuum try calling them
Translation "the motors inertial contribution" means when we fired this motor out of a cannon it contributed a certain amount of inertia which we guessed was about a jillion horsepower.
I think it means that if you spin up the impeller to full speed, and then connect your load, you might very briefly get 4.5 HP because in addition to the motor output power, the kinetic energy of the impeller is also delivering power to the load (flywheel energy). But there are no circumstances under which the motor itself can deliver the rated HP.
@@mckenziekeith7434 This approach yields completely arbitrary numbers. Because one can arbitrarily increase the instantaneous horsepower rating by increasing the applied (shock) load an arbitrary amount. The number work, providing one accepts the correspondingly shorter the duration during which this shock load will be applied.
Analogy: A car colliding and crumpling together with another, parked car may equate to 1000+ horsepower for a tenth of a second. But, drive it into an unyielding concrete wall and it may equate to 2000 horsepower for a twentieth of a second. Rigidize the car's frame and body such the impact ends with virtually no crumpling/deformation, and the blow could yield well in excess of 10,000 horsepower for a few milliseconds
@@gregparrott I agree with everything you are saying. Arbitrary is exactly the word I would use. I was attempting to explain what I view as a completely bogus rationale. I didn't mean to justify the rationale, just elucidate it. Elsewhere in this section somebody pointed out that the "peak HP" limit then becomes a function of max RPM and the shaft strength. Which, of course, makes no sense whatsoever as far as what a consumer or user of the product would want to know.
Good work. Definitely worth my time. I am quickly becoming a fan.
About 11:30 starts my favorite part of this video and the *BEST* thing I have seen on CZcams this month. Fantastic!
Reminds me of when I started working on cars back in the 90's and realized Japanese cars seemed to have more horsepower even when a similar American car claimed to have more. Then I read up on it and found that American companies were allowed to use all sorts of tricks to get that number as high as possible. Like taking off the water pump (as well as everything else) and putting pressure on the heads. It would throw off the number by as much as 30%.
That's greatly dependent upon the car and the decade you're looking at.. for example by the late '90s and early 2000s, GM was cranking out more horsepower than they were telling.. You would often see the the published crank horsepower to the wheels. Meanwhile Honda and Toyota, were really close to straight up lying. then the new SAE testing procedures came... And all of those imports had to lower their numbers, meanwhile Cadillac and Chevy raise the numbers on their cars because they were just deemed to be so low that they were being misleading.
that was with gross horsepower ratings of the 60s/70s. SAE standards kicked then to eliminate these shenanigans.
The small engine industry went through this year's ago and now they rate some of the lawn mowers as displacement CC and not hp. I was always wondering how that old 3 hp Briggs turned into a 7hp engine, apparently it didn't.
Briggs got sued for that exact thing ,calling the old 3hp engine a 6.5hp engine (someone figured out that all the parts had the same pn# between the 3 and 6.5 hp engines and they had the same bore and stroke)and lost a chunk of money 15 yrs ago that's why they stopped using hp and went to torque and displacement so they could have the bigger numbers.
And its a safe bet they are lying about the torque numbers as well.
@@deadeyedsam850 I thought the head gasket on my 6hp lawn mower looked very familiar to the 3 HP gasket from a mini bike I had as a kid.
On the other hand, I hear stories of getting huge HP gains by putting a bigger carburetor on engines sold as 6.5hp
It’s the same thing with TVs. 1,000,000 : 1 dynamic contrast ratio. Completely meaningless.
I really wish this fellow would do a similar test on small gasoline engines because of this similar problem to electric motors.
great video .. My 30 plus year old shop vac is still giving reliable service .. Best value for money wet and dry vac on the planet .
I'm glad someone finally did this.
Heh, I used to have a 5HP vacuum at the lab I work at. It genuinely scared me when I put my hand over the suction port the first time I turned it on because I wasn't expecting it to suck me down that hard. (I then proceeded to tell my coworkers to do the same thing.)
This was a genuine 5HP 3ph motor with a massive squirrel cage fan and two pleated filters on the output. This vacuum sucked hard!
Likewise! Seeing my first "real" dust collector left me in awe: a 5HP motor powered by a dedicated 240v 30A circuit. After seeing that, I knew there was no way an itty-bitty Shop Vac motor could seriously claim 6.5HP. After some research back then, I read that "peak horsepower" was calculated based on inrush current - absurd, since the motor draws that for only a few milliseconds! To make it even sillier, manufacturers try to game that meaningless number by chilling motors (lowering winding resistance = the equivalent load of a non-rotating brushed motor) prior to testing! If we went by that standard, I guess we have a 40HP dust collector in the wood shop, right? LOL
Can it pull stumps? That would be awesome!
Red Green
the gauge on the cord is a dead giveaway'! this always bugged me too.
the fact that it draws less than 2 HP from the wall is also a hint...
I remember questioning that HP ratings several years ago when I started seeing these high HP claims. However I never tried to look into it and am glad you did. As long as it picked up my sawdust and dirt, I was happy. Thanks for the great videos, as a retired EE, I enjoy looking at them and also the effort you take to do the experiments. As a side note: you may want to mention that 746 W per HP is a DC rating and may need to multiply in the Power Factor percentage for actual AC rating calculations. Thanks again.
This channel just showed up in my suggested feed. Now I know how I’m going to get through today’s quarantine.
Where did they get that number?!? From the competitors marketing!
One brand kicks the bullshit higher, then the other one does to, then...
Its the big circle jerk of marketing!!
I hate when you need some technical info and the company just keep saying: we’re not allowed to reveal such technical data!!!
Absolute crap, agreed.
Fantastic video. I like how you left the wrong number in there, but also how you systematically dismantled a misleading claim that is used by an entire industry in a very polite way.
Jeremy,
I stumbled upon your videos, and have throughly enjoyed them. Keep it up!
You really taught me something today!!
So I'm guessing right now, but when I read "including the motor's inertial contribution", maybe they spin up the motor to max and slam it with the breaks so hard, the motor will stop almost immediately, causing all rotational inertia of the motor to peak the measurement of torque.
Now multiplying the top speed with the peak torque can properly show extremely high Power.
that being said, increasing Power with this type of measurement would mean more rotational mass (e.g. heavier shafts) would yield more Power, destroying the usefulness entirely
@@Ololplays
I'm waiting for shopvacs with a fly wheel in them. 20kW peak shaft power shouldn't be a problem! A what am I saying, make it 50 for the label. Another advantage: once spun up the vaccuum can't tip over anymore because of the gyroscopic effect of the fly wheel.
How do you not have millions of subscribers?? Soooo glad to see someone tear up the stupid horsepower ratings on vacuums. Yet another great video, thank you!
I must try and explain this to people once a month. From now on I am pointing to your video ! Well done.
Short answer: No. Long answer: Also No.
"Power at the shaft"
Giggidy
it decreases after suction power reachs peak level
Good information. A lot of us nerds already know to look right past the marketing BS that increasingly misinforms us about nearly every product we use in our lives, but maybe one day if enough of us will realize the lies that they lies will stop... I'm not really counting on it though. I think the lies will just get bigger, louder and bolder.
Excellent video. Thank you for taking the time and expertise!
It's called "deceptive and misleading advertising." It would cost you a small fortune to sue them over it. Is it worth it?
No, even if he wins he probably would need a class action lawsuit with a lot of people and if they win, well, only a handful of _lawyers_ get real money.
6 HP = ̶ ̶1̶0̶4̶7̶6̶-̶ 4476 watts. On a 15 or 20 amp circuit? Not happening.
6hp is not 10476 watts... but you're right it's not happening.
@@JW77 You're right! 4476 watts, electrically. I don't know where I made the booboo! Thanks!
Also, when you say a motor has a certain HP, that refers to output power. Motors are not 100% efficient, so it is going to be over 5500 electrical Watts consumed to deliver 6HP.
Yes, even "peak" horsepower, or for a single instant under optimal conditions, that would blow your breaker, if not outright fry it. Think how heavy the 1/2 hp motor on your average drill press is, and compare that to the weight of an entire 14 gallon "6 hp" shopvac. Yeah, it's clearly marketing b.s.
Peak HP is not Horsepower
Just found your videos, I was looking up content on electric motors and have watched several of your videos today. I love the way you explain and show how things work! I hit the subscribe button.
Welcome to the neighborhood!
I appreciate that you went straight to the source.
Hold up now, you cannot go by motor size to determine the power rating of electric motors. The treadmill motor is rated for intermittent duty and will have a higher power rating based on the fact they are overloading the motor and are assuming cooling down periods. Also, with electric, the power rating is the continuous rating. It is not the motor's max horsepower potential at all. Now this vacuum cleaner is hilariously overrated being that we are limited to 15 to 20 amp breakers at 120 volts.
However, if the application that the motor is intended for is of a definite type where cooling periods are in between and the current is available for it, then overloading the motor is not bad. A good example is a starter motor that our cars use. It's continuous rating is somewhere around 1/3 HP, but the starter motor is being severely overloaded to get about 1 HP out of the motor for short durations to turn over an engine to get it going because the motor will be smaller and lighter since it's just a 1/3 HP continuous rated motor. Now try using a one hp continuous duty DC motor!! It would be huge and weigh a lot more. This also explains why you can damage the starter if you keep running it when the engine does not start up successfully.
Other examples are winches used on cars to pull them out of bad situations. They are being overloaded severely so the electric motors used will remain small and be lightweight, but the designers assume the end user has enough sense to let the motor cool down and also the electric motor is rarely pulling the full weight of the vehicle because the vehicle is not being pulled at 90 degrees against gravity, which would be the full weight, but at an incline where the vehicle is resting on a surface. So only a percentage of the weight is being pulled against gravity. High quality winches can go into max severe overload power rating for about 30 seconds to 1 minute and then need a 20 minute to 1 hour cooldown period. Veteran off roaders usually also have snatch blocks to help reduce load on the winche's motor, but at reduced pulling speed.
Motor size is a vague hint to the TORQUE a motor can produce, but, is no indication of the RPM The motor can spin. If you multiply foot pounds of torque X RPM, then, divide by 5252, that's how you get horsepower. High RPM is the reason a small 4 cylinder car engine can match the horsepower of a V-8 "Big Block". If it can spin twice as fast, it only needs to produce half the torque, to equal the same horsepower. From there, it's just a matter of gearing to climb a hill at the same speed, in a vehicle the same weight. Hand held power tools do the same thing. They put in a tiny motor, gear it down, rev it up, and you can get all that power in a hand held tool.(usually, a 30,000 RPM motor, and a compound transmission,20:1 reduction, for a 1,500 RPM chuck speed)
"motor's inertial contribution"; what does this mean? My thought is, this would be the instantaneous HP if you brought the motor up to speed and the resulting instantaneous torque if you slammed the rotation to a stop so it includes torque contributed by the angular momentum of the spinning armature. Like it you strike a hammer on the meaty part of your thigh, 'No Big Deal', but the same strike on your pinky on a hard surface, you are going to lose a nail. From the rpm, mass and diameter of the motor armature an angular momentum calculation could be made and would it make-up the additional HP?
Cheers, Mark
***********************************
Hallelujah... I’ve always wondered about the HP rating on products. Keep it up buddy. I just subscribed. This is good stuff like Project Farm. You’re on to something good.
Great video. I just bought a new 5HP stealth shop vac. Wish I would have seen your video first. As near as I can tell from my research nearly every shop vac is made in China. Now everything is disposable.
I'd talk to AvE, he's extremely knowledgeable about things like this.
might be a bit hard for the average joe to understand his dialect and vocabulary. Lol
Lol! "I'm trying to duplicate your testing results."
"Well, Jeremy, we asked the marketing folks what instantaneous power value they wanted us to write down. They told us, and we wrote that down. Is there anything else I can help you with today?"
It was revealed in extensive conversations between Dilbert, Wally, and sales
You took the time and effort to edit in a clip from an old video as opposed to just telling everyone to leave this one to go watch that one. It would have been way easier to just link it in the description and call it good but you wanted us to understand what you were talking about. That's some serious dedication to your craft, sir. I am impressed. +1 sub
Glad I stumbled across your video, I love you relaxed and simply explanations, great videos.
Surprised thay can get away with that Trading Standereds in the UK would be on there backs
And Trading _Standards_ might be on _their_ case.
I agree
Hp rating is irrelevant, air flow would be more relevant.
Actually it would be Air Flow AT a given pressure differintial . Engineers in the air moving fiels often refer to it as Air Horspower
www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ahp-bhp-air-brake-horsepower-d_1582.html
This assumes a constant value for the density of air, of course.
This same kind of published power performance creep occurs in many products, I recall it happening in the small lawnmower business until it resulted in a class action lawsuit. We could do that in the vacumm cleaner business but lawyers would suck up all of the money!
Airflow has a lot of variables as well - with more airflow, you get less pressure, with more pressure, you get less airflow. Which is more important? I think there's probably a sweet spot with pressure and airflow.
@@DISOPtv The vacuum industry often uses water lift as a measure or performance. Its a good way to compare vacs if you can find the number, it usually isn't available to the public.
I just discovered your channel today. You do a great job of explaining and putting together a decent test. I've known for years that HP numbers were PURE BS, but as a guide for comparing several like tools to determine which one I would buy, I focus on two numbers; cost and how many amps the tool draws. I will go for the highest amp load for the amount of money I want to spend. Amps = OOMPH. I don't think there is a relationship here that a physicist would be happy with, but it works for me.
Great video Jeremy, I get a kick out of your vids. One I know there will be useful info, and two your commentary is always entertaining....
Kinda makes me want to build a shop vac with a REAL 5 hp motor just to see what happens.
The End Times, that's what'll happen. Definitely go for it.
I think I can donate my Honda engine.
“Fat kid on a seesaw”? I am now triggered and will spend the rest of my life in a safe space.
Back in high school in 1964 my shop class learned to wind motors. After completion of the motor we learned how to test it. I remember using a device called a proney break. It was simply a stick with an adjustable leather strap that attached to the motors shaft. The end of the stick was attached to a spring scale. I don’t Remember all the details but I Remember starting the motor and slowly tightening the leather belt while watching a connected ammeter and the scale indication. Using some math were able to come up the actual hp. I love your channel. Keep up the good work. Ps seeing those hp numbers on appliances has always bugged me too
What I did was the electrical version of what you did. Exactly the same really. You were measuring torque with the leather strap and a lever pressing a scale. I am using an "electric" brake and lever on a scale.
Thank you for using simple science to call out bullshit deceptive marketing practices!!!
Welcome to earth, everyone and everything thing is trying to scam you.
my old hover upright says .68 hp bought it for my office in the 70's they said it would pick up a bowling ball.
I love your channel, man your content is amazing! What gets me is that there is no governance over this. I don't believe for one second anyone using righteous testing methods ever would get 4.5 hp from that motor.
I randomly stumbled upon this and always wondered about this BS about shop vacs myself... I'm glad I watched this. Then I saw the motor/generator series of videos and subscribed. Keep up the quality educational content Jeremy!
Great video. I got my shop vac for about $40. I like that it has a huge metal cage filter in it that only cost about $10 to replace. I left water in it and put it away. Came back and there was mold growing in it. Had to clean out the vac and replace the filter. I actually don't own a normal vacuum cleaner. I have different attachments for carpet and one just like the car wash vacuum has. I use it for everything from the car and around the house. I wondered how accurate the number printed on it really was. Sure does have a lot of suction power. Whatever it actually is. Thanks 😃
this video, together with another video I watched recently (regarding how Printer Ink & Printer companies rob us blind with in-built chips in the printers to tell us there is no ink in the cartridge when there is), should be shown on national television around the planet. we get duped into buying so much stuff with bogus claims! Thanks for sharing this, Jeremy. And what an entertaining watch it was too! 🙂
Great timing. I was looking at a Harbor Freight flyer this morning and saw a shop vac with 4.5hp. I said, "What the ------." 4.5hp out of a 110V 15A socket, I don't think so. Great video. I did a study on built-in obsolescence about 30 years ago on hand-held power tools. A cheap 1/4" hand drill was designed to last 28 minutes. That was the design for Joe Homeowner who drills a couple of holes and then puts it away for a year. The same company also made professional grade tools that truly were for the everyday professional. This was just a case of, "You get what you pay for." I just subscribed to your channel.
Jeremy, great work. In the old days hi-fi/stereo amplifiers had similar outrageous output power claims. Around the mid 1980s the FTC made companies rate the output of their amplifiers in terms of RMS power into a given load impedance.