Crocodiles are not “Living Fossils”
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- čas přidán 19. 06. 2024
- #evolution #crocodile #paleontology
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www.nytimes.com/2019/06/03/sc...
Crocodiles Are Not “Living Fossils” - National Geographicwww.nationalgeographic.com › science › 2015/11/16
Living fossil - Wikipediaen.wikipedia.org › wiki › Living_fossil
Crocs dispel 'living fossil' myth - BBC - Earth Newsnews.bbc.co.uk › earth › earth_news › newsid_9264000
discovery.ucl.ac.uk/id/eprint...
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Perhaps I should have cleared up what I meant by "Living Fossil"
Living fossil was a term originally created by Charles Darwin, the term was of course used to describe organisms that have not changed or have seemingly kept the same morphology for a long geological time. Darwin predicted that many of these animals exist and had existed. The term has since become outdated with evidence that shows animals do not stay the same to any degree except some basic phenotypic traits, even horseshoe crabs have changes a lot. The term is now seen as outdated and not used often in a scientific context. (www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/theres-no-such-thing-as-a-living-fossil-14360996/)
they old
"Darwin was careful to point out that this phrase was “fanciful,” but it was also poetic and memorable. It quickly multiplied in both academic writing and the popular press. Eventually, it came to signify creatures that had emerged long ago and had not changed for eons, preserving a primitive appearance unlike any other living thing. “Living fossil” was no longer a passing phrase; it had become a powerful concept shaping scientists’ attitudes towards modern species."
m.nautil.us/issue/22/slow/the-rise-and-fall-of-the-living-fossil
I don't think anyone really cares to use the term scientifically anymore. It's good that you explained what exactly you were trying to explain in "crocodiles aren't living fossils". But at the same time, your video still misses what you've clarified. The article I linked does a better job as it talks about dna, how we're quick to over simply species and how no animal alive has stopped evolving, regardless of how slowly it has since prehistoric times. Furthermore, it even better explained how creationists used the term to push their agenda.
In any case, yes, even though not even the coelacanths are not technically living fossils because they're genetically different, you can't fault people for still calling any animal that has experienced morphological stasis living fossils.
It's like how tomatoes, cucumbers and various peppers are regarded as vegetables because of how they're used culinarily when they're technically fruits. You can be technically right, but for what reason? It kinda just boils down to semantics. People are probably referring to the the relatively unchanged appearance of the living fossil, not its dna. So while horshoe crabs are not technically living fossils, morphologically they are. No one really knows about the genetic evolution because well, we aren't seeing the genes, we're seeing the appearance.
Here's an article that talks about a fish that underwent "massive genetic divergence" but experienced morphological stasis.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3049028/
Still though, I've learned a lot today. That once upon a time people hypothesised about genetic stasis. That the term living fossil was used scientifically. That the current coelacanths aren't technically the prehistoric ones. And about some cool extinct crocs.
The only issue is, time frames of such a large size, and the climactic, and geologic changes that come along with that present a great problem with the idea of any organism being able to maintain morphological stasis at all. And it's a problem repeatedly, and purposefully swept under the rug.
Thanks for that description. I heard the term being used for Coelacanths even though their internal anatomy had changed over time.
What is the name of your end credit music?
"Now we are stuck with boring crocodilians."
I think we're just used to them living in our time, so we somewhat take their beauty for granted.
Pretty much, like seriously if you were to tell some European guy 400ish years ago of some place in the new world where giant lizards the size of men ruled the water ways, he would’ve thought you were crazy. While I do admit the more unique crocodilians that appeared in more unique niches were cool, you can’t go wrong with the classic big water lizard bois
Yeah. Nature ain't fair. Also, it's for the best. Which also means we don't have to worry about a huge ass croc causing damage costs to increase quickly, or thousands of deaths occurring.
Yes.
@@godzillaking5033 I think Europeans were aware of crocodiles as they live in other parts of the world they would’ve interacted with
@@godzillaking5033 Imagine being sent to Australia for your crimes and the first thing you see is your friend getting slaughtered by a giant armoured water lizard because he thought to get a drink
You don’t know fear until you’ve seen a kaprosuchus in ark survival evolved. It’s basically a crocodile horse
Imagine all the different species of crocodilians that ever existed, sadly we will likely never get to know all of them
Fossilization process is so cruelly rare.
That's not really a sad thing.
Armadillosuchus is a new one for me. How incredibly weird!
I plan to cover more crocodilians soon!
That one was the most bizarre for me too, suggested the most non-crocodilian behavior of them all?
I want one as a pet. They're cute.
This was fire. Glad it popped up on my recommended
Yup
Woah you got quite a bit of subs
Ikr, I subbed
yh
Subbed
Everyone gangster till the croc starts jogging
This is why at the museum, I say the crocodilian body is ancient, but many different groups have taken up the mantle. It's not a singular lineage, it's a legacy.
Hell yea
They should do one of those horror movies with the extinct, long-legged, land based croc-like creature as it's main subject....that critter is a thing of terrifying beauty - I wouldn't want a hungry one chasing me though...
You want Primeval, Series 4, Episode 2. Kaprosuchus episode where it racks up quite the body count
Well if you wanted to be more specific, certain species of croc have been relatively unchanged for millions of years. The genetic lineage of Nile, Siamese and Saltwater crocodiles is thought to have diverged in the Miocene, between 10.6 and 6.52 million years ago.
Thank you, at times he seems to have his nose stuck up in the air attitude, at times.
Armadillosuchus seriously looks like something created in 'Impossible Creatures'.
Great Video North 02, got a few suggestions, ofc, I'm not forcing you to do them:
Mapusaurus Roseae
Tyrannotitan Chubutensis
Acrocanthosaurus Atokensis
Ceratosaurus Nasicornis
Siats Meekerorum
Saurophaganax Maximus
Ceolophysis Bauri
Liopleurodon Ferox
Pliosaurus Funkei/predator x
Kronosaurus Queenslandicus
Amphicyon Ingens
Sauroposeidon Proteles
Dilophosaurus Wetherilli
Suchomimus Tenerensis
Crocodilians of my favorite reptiles and they’re so different than the others
Alright. Hear me out... Birds.
Crocodilians are the only reptile I am actually interested in
Depends on how you define reptile. If you define it as a grade (like classical "Reptilia"), that excludes birds but includes lizards, croc, turtles and tutataras, then crocs are different because they are largely unrelated. If you go for a clade based definition, and put Reptilia up near Sauropsida or similar, then birds are arguably the "weirder" reptiles
@@KellyClowers if you define reptilia classically then the classification is basically meaningless in light of our current understanding of phylogeny. If crocodlians are reptiles then surely so must birds be. Like if an echidna is a mammal then it wouldn’t make sense to say we aren’t even if we feel our traits separate us from the classification.
@@MarkLatimerRussell how are we not a mammal?
Not saying I'm disagreeing with you, but if I were to play devil's advocate, I would say, that there being more "complex" / divers crocodilians around, and we left with the base model, closer in look and behaviour to ancient ones, would be exactly what could be called living fossils.
^^^^
Yeah even if they were still plenty diverse back in the day, crocodilians today still have the basic bodyplan of some of the most famous prehistoric archosaurs, like deinosuchus.
I agree with this, but still an educational video nonetheless
Not a knock to you (probably moreso to the rhetoric of modern science) but it sounds preposterous to me to refer to what time has proven to be the better adapted and thereby superior model in the lineup a "living fossil".
@@turkeygod6665 I think of them as being living fossils just for the fact that they never really changed much in their evolution unlike other animals. I remember in one of the eps for the Joe Rogan podcast he compared them to a hammer. Yeah there may be bigger hammers or smaller hammers but s hammer is a hammer and their use is still unchanged.
00:01 “crocodiles”
*shows an image of an alligator*
@Axran doesn’t like milk relax! It’s a joke.
wasn't that a caiman?
@@Suji56 well a caiman is a basically a croc but smaller, but I don’t think it’s a caiman.
The modern lineage of crocs evolved roughly ~85MYA
Oldest being gators/caimans which Deinosuchus is a part of
PS: Happy New Years
Creatures on the riverbanks kept on evolving into crocodillian forms in the past 300 million years (before and alongside "true" crocodiles) with Phytosaurs being the most prominent in the Triassic era (while very ancient cousins of crocodiles assumed dinosaur forms!).
The crocodile form keeps on emerging like the crab form (making you wonder what far future avian/reptile/mammal croc mimics will take the crocodiles' place after they go extinct).
very interesting topic to talk about, also the boar crocodile sounds really cool, maybe it's my new favourite pre-historic animal that isnt an dinossaur
i really love how you approach the animals you spotlight. You use a wide variety of images and i just really appreciate that. Your script is obviously thought thru and i appreciate it a lot
“Ignorance is not evidence” what a great quote!
Of all Neosuchians my favourite have to be Thalattosuchians. Just by looking at them you'd say they were Mosasaurs by their lack of body armour, flipper like limbs and long paddle shaped tails, but they were crocodilians through and through. Really shows how diverse of a Clade Crocodilians and their relatives are, much more than people give them credit for.
Crocodiles are among the only surviving lineage of archosaurs that date back to the Mesozoic era that still largely resemble their ancestors.
It's not some massive error to consider them "living fossils."
Just got recommended this channel! Good stuff!
ur videos r my favourite comfort videos i love watching ur vids their somewhat calm
Another awesome video! Great job as always! Crocodilians are some of my favorite animals!
Great video, I didn't realize crocodilians were so diverse. Keep up the fascinating content my dude
Awesome video! You do great work!
great vod!
I hope you gonna do the Nimravidae, they are just so underrated in my opinion
It's always the most interesting animals that are extinct
There is a lot of really unique extant animals they just seem normal to us.
Probably because if it fit into today's environment well enough to seem "normal" it wouldn't be extinct
Ever heard of the Pistol Shrimp? It’s probably one of the coolest animals ever, but it’s still alive.
it's always the most extinct animals that are interesting :)
We ate or hunted all the funky stuff. Haast eagles, stellar sea cows, dodos and Tasmanian Tigers are awesome but they're all gone.
I love this video and the diverse discussion, but even as a biology student with a knowledge of anatomy and taxonomy the jargon is a lot to contend with. I loved your explanation of some of the name's etymologies and use of images when using uncommon terms. One trick I've learned in communicating with jargon is to offer the definition and then the term if it's important, paired with pics or some other means of contextualizing it. Great vid tho thanks for sharing! liked and subscribed :)
Well, people can always go to Wikipedia, see what he's reading....
Then use an online dictionary for the unknown vocabulary
Cool stuff happy new year to all
Great video, Happy New Year
This! One of my favourite has to be the miocene mekosuchine Trilophosuchus, although if you want a more recent curiosity there was a Malagasy horned croc known as the Voay.
The boar croc is awesome.
Actually, this whole video felt like a review of video game animals
Your channel is excellent.
I think armadillosuchus may have become one of my new favourite animals.
Excellent video. You just earned a sub
I think there is something to be said of crocodiles retreating to their current niche as the "default" when stuff hits the fan though. Almost every time there's a big extinction event, the land crocs die, the specialized crocs die, but the "camp the watering hole" strategy seems to be their eternal niche. One they can hold like a fortress until new opportunities to diversify arise.
Yeah there were these other crocodiles that did other things. But the present crocodilians haven't changed much from their direct ancestors. I think that's what they mean. Hence they're correct.
Exellent video! Thanks for showcasing these animals so well! Now I have a video to show people that crocodilians have changed over time! 😉👍
This is a very good video, and I liked it a lot, and is largely true, but crocodilians (as in members of Crocodilia) only really include animals like the ones today. Stomatosuchus, for example, is a neosuchian, a group of animals that includes crocodilians. Kaprosuchus and Armadillosuchus are not even neosuchians, but are still metasuchians, and metasuchia includes neosuchians.
Enjoyed, thanks!
I like how the other variants of Crocodilians are like straight up Fanart/Sprite of the Present Crocs nowadays.
“Crocodiles have not remained unchanged since the time of the dinosaurs.”
*Cites other animals that are not crocodiles as evidence*
Still an enjoyable video, though.
as a fan of animals and prehistory, I'm naturally able to enjoy this video...
but even if I wasn't it wouldn't matter because *your voice* is just 😍
will def check out more of your stuff
Structurally they all are very similar regardless of differences. So it’s not exactly false to say they haven’t changed due to minor changes that differentiate them.
I'm so hyped for this.
Thank you for bringing to me this information. It fires my imagination - i love your content.
Armadillosuchus would fit perfectly in the Avatar The Last Air Bender universe. An armadillo crocodile. Like the platypus bear, turtle duck, or sheep pigs from Avatar 😂
"Thanks for preserving western democracy"
Yalta conference and Potsdam agreement: allow us to introduce ourselves
Happy New Year.
and to you too!
Great vid! However I'd be cautious with saying that Kaprosuchus had been terrestial. Some still point to more amphibious body plan, even some of the graphics shown were made to imply this.
Nevertheless I'm also always astounded by the diversity of the crocodyloforms, with them feeling many niches especially in the Triassic.
Happy new year
To you too bro!!!!!
Subscribed.
Aw my favourite croc wasn't there, the pug croc ! Imagine a croc you could pet : D
I really love those crocodiles because they remind me of both dragons and Godzilla himself (Which I am of him for 20 years and dragons are one of my favorite mythical creatures).
3:32 Screw the nazis that refused to move the fossils to safety!
You see, Adolph? This is why we can't have nice things!
@@therion5458 They did. They just chose not to move the fossils because the discoverer of them was against what the nazis stud for.
@@therion5458 No, the person who discovered them disagreed with what the nazis were doing, and because of that, they didn't help him in his time of need.
@@The_PokeSaurus Still, bombing museums is stupid.
@@MithriVideolari Yeah, thats a fact.
I mean technically they have changed over time 🤣 every species has but they are really one of the few species on Earth today to extremely resemble their ancestors millions of years ago
We do
@@misterskeleton_yt7854 We have drastically changed overtime lmao
lmao the look on that dinosaur being jumped by the crocodile
saurcosuchus look very different than salties, the snout is very rectangular.
Deinosuchus is an ancient alligatoridae before the split that become gators and caimans
There are crocomorphs in Triassic that convergently evolved to compete with dinosaurs
can we tell through genetics if the dinka have been genetically isolated? and for how long?
"ignorance is not evidence"
fog horns sound*
The thing is that modern crocodiles look very similar to SOME of their ancestors from the time of the dinosaurs and before, very unlike birds or mammals.
This channel is a sanctuary from the loud, vulgar idiocy of ignorance. You're the best, North!
I love the video
wanted to hear about the marine crocodiles with flippers
Imagine kaprosuchus in modern day galloping after wildebeest and zebra and fighting lions for food.
Those look like different types of crocodiles that were adapted to different environments over a wide range of areas suited for different needs and purposes, doesn't look like they evolved from each other at all, the crocodiles we have now are here because they survived the changing of the earth after the flood. Crocodiles have the ability to go long periods without food and withstand cold temperatures.
ty for roasting creationists. they deserve it.
MORE VIDEOS LIKE THIS BRO🍻😎
Armadillosuchus looks like it would be cute
I saw a crocidilian get eaten by a leopard. When you said top of the food chain i thought of that and laughed because I'm sure it thought the same thing lol
A 55 year old man was able kill a Leopard with his bare hands. No joke that actually happened.
@@Michael_De_Santa-Unofficial i can believe it. Anyone can lose to anything given the right circumstances
2:04 is that you own drawing?
I live in Louisiana and we have several holdovers from ancient times: Cypress trees, alligators, possums, bowfin(fish), garfish, loggerhead turtles, and others. I've think that the ancient animals "look" ancient and primitive compared to "modern" animals.
Great video but i dont know if extinct species really qualifies as a good argument for change in crocodiles itself. Other then that really well done video.
You’re a saint for giving both Metric and Imperial measurements
i love the marine croc they are like hybrid of pliosaur and mosasaurus so epic withthey still alive :'(
Thank you! Someone said it
0:29 WHY IS THIS CROCO BOI SAD, YOU MADE HIM SAD, HE BE LIKE TO BE DAINOSOR
Also, some ancient crocs were herbivores, such as chimaerasuchus and Pakasuchus.
You could say that at least the main body plan for crocodilians hasn’t changed much.
Well you could say that about shrews rats and a bunch of other animals
@@NORTH02 True, but where’s the fun in that?
As an inhabitant of Munich I'm pretty sure western democracy could have been defended without throwing bombs on civilians and museums. My grandfather lost four siblings due to bombings by the allied forces and the new paleontological museum of Munich is way too small. They have barely any space to show even a small portion of their collection. The site of the original museum is now a department store.
It’s a figure of speech jeez
We need some croc love!!!
So you tube EXTRA recommend this video because I watched baby Cuban crocodiles sounded like Galaga (ancient video game) but I ALSO watch dinosaur stuff🤔🤔🤔
whatever. Lol
All they need to do is have a flying one and they've done it all
*DiNoSaUr*
No bipedal or “flipper limbed” crocodylomorphs?
I always wonder why some sqamates went to the sea and within a few million years of evolution, took over the oceans as a dominant predator, the mossasaurs. Whereas the crocodylomorphs were dominant aquatic predators even before dinosaurs but never managed to evolve large marine predators whithin their lineage. This doesn't make any sense!
I am currently making a video kinda about this
Ever heard about the Thalattosuchians? Because they're exactly what you're talking about.
@@hisokamorow4608 yeah, but they never grew close to the size of mossasaurs. I understand that earlier they had competition from ichtyosaurs and pliosaurus, but later in the Cretaceous before the rise of mossasaurs, I find no reason for them to be a dominant aquatic predator both on freshwater and seas.
@@cynofeliswildlife9967 True. Perhaps ocean levels had something to do with it? Dunno, but yeah I do wonder how Mosasaurs just seemed to dominate the ecosystem even though there still was the Plesiosaurs around.
@@hisokamorow4608 that's the very reason I asked thw question and hopefully will be able to ask an expert in person. Plesiosaurs were long necked and built for fishing. The extinction of short necked huge hawed Pliosaurs opened ninches for sharks and mossasaurs to evolve to large sizes and dominante the seas.
You are both right right and wrong, when people say crocodiles hasn't changed much in millions of years they mean that the crocodiles that are still alive today haven't changed much since the Cretaceous. So modern crocs are living fossils. But as you pointed out, crocodilians was once one of the most unique and diverse groups on the planet. So to say that crocodiles haven't changed at all in millions of years is just inaccurate.
I agree.
You kind of made a mistake here at 0:22 with the Crocodylomorphs, the Champsosaurus & the Phytosaurs (Rutiodon, Smilosuchus, Mystriosuchus), they are not Crocodylomorphs or Crocodilians they just evolved similar lifestyles to Crocs.
Yeah I realized this too late after posting it, might have to correct it in the future.
@@NORTH02 very well then, keep up the good work.
So were not gonna talk about the hooved crocs? Cool cool cool cool cool
Crocs are such alpha animals. Unstoppable!
Unstoppable? Hmmmm, I vaguely recall hearing of such things as crocodile skin boots, belts, wallets and such...
Humans are the bane of any of the alpha animals.....Crocs, sharks, big cats...and whatever else
We've put enough of them on endanged list
@@leeshackelford7517 👍🏽
2:28 - This is what I don't understand. How can you determine what this animal looked like with such incomplete collection of fossils?
Good question...
The answer is that we do not know if it looked like that exactly. They take what fossil evidence they have and make the best model they can. This is why animals like spinosaurus have changed a lot in terms of how we see them. First spino was like a basic theropod with a tail, then it got a croc head, then it got short back legs, and now it has a paddle tail. Reconstructions are not always very accurate and a lot of times based on guesses, other animals like trex has plenty of fossil material so we have a good idea what it looks like, stomatosuchus was based off of mainly the head but you can tell a lot about an animals size and since we know it’s a croc it likely had a similar croc body.
@@NORTH02
But they formulate a whole theory based on few pieces of bones. And pass it off as fact.
Don't get me wrong, I study evolution and believe it to be a viable science, but they kinda of stretch the truth, with little evidence, and the naive people eat it up.
@@Tall-Cool-Drink stretch the truth? How does estimating stomatosuchus proportions based on bone dimensions stretching the truth?
Allosaurus is not hard to know how they act because allosaurus had the same brain shape so scientist know they acted similar to an allagator so alligator is tecnicley related to allosaurus.
Alligators and allosaurus are not technically related because they have similar brain structures. It’s sort of an example of convergent evolution. Alligators and allosaurus are not very related, no more than a bird is related to an alligator.
It's amazing how we used to have crocodiles that lived solely on land, like Postosuchus, as well as solely in oceans, like Metriorynchus.
Pretty bad that i know what 4:30 this Kapro belongs too.
God i play too much ARK.
there is no way I am going to look at archosaurs before the great dying at 252 and see identical animals after--------------------------------------and then be told they are not related.