Lithium or Lead Acid? WFCO Auto-Detect RV Converter Charger (Lead Acid/AGM & LiFEP04 compatible)
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- čas přidán 2. 01. 2022
- Update on the WFCO Auto-Detect Li/LA RV Charger yt • Update on the WFCO Aut...
Detects battery chemistry, automatically changes, and optimizes charging profile. Link to more information on the WFCO Auto Detect power converters - wfcoelectronics.com/auto-detect/ LYRV Lithium related videos - www.loveyourrv.com/tag/lithium/
Fair Disclosure I received the WFCO WF8955-AD Power Center free of charge as a review sample.
Recently WFCO Electronics contacted me and asked if I'd like to test and review a new product they have released. It's a power converter charger that can auto-detect whether the RV has lead acid or lithium-type batteries installed. Once it detects which type, it adjusts its charging algorithms for the most efficient charging.
I thought my ten-year-old Keystone Cougar trailer would be a great testbed. The OEM installed a WF-8955 WFCO power center which includes a 55 amp converter charger. A couple of years ago, I upgraded to lithium batteries and quickly found out the old WFCO lead-acid type converter charger was less than stellar at charging them. At best, the average charging current is in the 10-15 amp range. Furthermore, the charging usually stalls when the lithium battery bank is at 53% capacity.
Installation of the new converter charger is reasonably straightforward for anyone who knows electrical circuits. WFCO makes both products. It's just a matter of swapping the wires from one module to the newer version.
Once the new auto-detect converter is installed and hooked up, it needs to go through one complete charge cycle. Intelligent circuitry determines whether the batteries are lithium or lead-acid.
If the battery is lead-acid, it uses a standard 3 phase charging algorithm. However, if it finds lithium, it employs a 2 stage algorithm. 14.6 VDC charging mode dropping to 13.6VDC float when fully charged.
So far, in my early tests using a gas generator for off-grid charging, the WFCO Auto-Detect power converter has worked as advertised. It provides a 14.5 VDC @ 50 amps or more until my lithium batteries are fully charged, then it drops to a 13.6 VDC float. Performance is night and day better than the old unit. I'm pleasantly surprised as it was a straight swap with the old converter.
My only complaint thus far is the fan noise. Since the power center is inside our living area, it can be a little annoying until the batteries reach full charge and it kicks to float mode, and the fan shuts off.
I'll continue to test the product out for the remaining month of our snowbird trip and come back with an update in the spring.
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#LoveYourRV #WFCO - Jak na to + styl
*Update on the WFCO Auto-Detect Li/LA RV Charger* czcams.com/video/3AApEUvSx4I/video.html
Detects battery chemistry, automatically changes, and optimizes charging profile. *Link to more information* on the WFCO Auto Detect power converters - wfcoelectronics.com/auto-detect/ *More LYRV Lithium related videos* - www.loveyourrv.com/tag/lithium/
Well i do not think they detect chemistry ,i think they detect internal resistent of battery And that totaly something else
Also if you have a bad connection ,and there for higher resistance IT can measure the wrong value ,and choose the wrong charge curve,and destroy your battery
I quoted WFCO webpage. I imagine they are counting on the different battery chemistries having different internal resistances. Therefore they detect the different chemistries using the differing internal resistances. Just a guess...
@@LoveYourRV Well the size of the battery bank also plays a role in the whole charging ,resistance
If you have 50amp. Or 1000amps
Makers lot of diffrance
As the voltage stays the same
So they are not measuring the chemistry,. Its a not so good guessing game if you cannot program it
Lithium versus lead-acid chemistries reacts quite differently to charge voltage so don't think it would be that hard to determine which is which. For example, fully charged resting voltages are quite different. Fully charged lead-acid is around 12.6V or 12.7 V. Lithium is in the neighborhood of 13.2V - 13.4V. Also, the charging voltage curves are much different. www.powerstream.com/z/lfp-la.jpg
@@LoveYourRV the problem when is not charged and the clamp voltage is let say 12.5volts
Hi Ray and wife. I just put in one of these. To chatge my Battleborns.Happy New Years. Travel well!
I was on their website about 2 weeks ago that’s cool they just brought that out 👍
Man, that is the way to start the New Year off right. I got a single lithium battery for my Cougar in the fall and have been trying to figure out the best route to go w/charger. Even I might be able to swap this unit out. Thanks for this review....
WFCO has good info on their web page for dedicated and dual converter/chargers. I did a swap back in spring of 2021 and I found them good to deal with with solid support. Good luck!
Nice upgrade Ray! Thanks
A great video, straight to the point, technical and informative. Very helpful, I'm about to change the WFCO charger myself. But I'm going to avoid the AD (Auto Detect) and opt for the manual switch mode.
I had the same issue with my lithium battery. When camping with full hookups I still had to break out the solar panels to fully charge the battery. I upgrade to the converter you are reviewing and all works well now. I just installed a DC to DC Charger as well to protect the alternator.
Can you explain further? Will the Vehicle alternator be under more load because of the voltage?
Clean install Ray!
Another helpful video, thank you Ray.
Thanks, Ray. I've got this yet to do in my new Grand Design. (traded in my Cougar)
First thing we did in ur new 2020 Keystone is swap the Lead Acid WFCO converter/charger for WFCO Lithium specific one (not auto detect). It only involved a couple of wires and it was easy to do as the units are identical almost. We only run LiFePO4 so there was not need to go dual system. Very easy swap and works very well! They seem to have a very good support and will respond to emails within 24hr so that was nice to see. I liked dealing with WFCO.
Thanks good to know. Thanks! I guess going forward a lot of the new RVs will come with the auto detect models. Make sit easy for the not so technically inclined.
@@LoveYourRV Definitely agree on that. The industry seems to be marketing a lot more flexible battery/solar setups and it makes sense. We hope to get to US from Ontario finally early this spring for a few months. Can't wait :)
Very interesting, you really are the "go to" site for true off grid living. Have any manufacturers asked for your advice in building a rig with all your upgrades?
I've had individual product manufactures sometimes ask questions about installation and features but never been contacted by a RV manufacture. I do have a relationship with Lippert as one of their what they call Ambassadors and give them lot of feedback on flaws with products and what would make them better. Cheers, Ray
I replaced my WFCO in my Winnebago with a Progressive unit last year when I upgraded to lithium. Works great
Which model did you install?
I went with the PD9180ALV.
I have a 500AH lithium bank in my Minnie Winnie.
Very nice Ray
👍 Thanks :-) best wishes for 2022 🔋🔌⚡💡
Very good video, finally someone came out with a quick swap out for lithium up grades.
Can you if you have not already, provide model numbers of the old and new units.
They were both model WF8955, except the new one is WF8955-AD the AD stands for auto-detect. This is only for people that want to switch back and forth and not think about it and is great for new RV sales. I'd guess many new RVs will come with the auto-detect model.
They do have a line of lithium replacements wfcoelectronics.com/lithium-solutions/ They come with a manual switch for LA or LI
"Tailored specific to lithium-ion batteries, take advantage of our lithium chargers: WF-8950L2PEC, WF-8950L2REP, WF-8950L2-MBA, & WF-9850L2. These chargers will replace 100% energy back into the lithium-ion battery, while using multi-stage charging processes to ensure a safe operating voltage for all loads, assuring the lithium cells inside the batteries remain balanced."
Seems impressive performance especially considering the long run of 8 AWG (?) wire between the converter and battery bank. I noticed you were seeing over 1 V drop at that current.
Our trailer uses a 6 AWG positive battery cable, about 20 feet long and uses the I-Beam frame as a negative return with maybe 3 feet of 6 AWG cable. Cheers, Ray
Thanks for sharing.
I like that upgrade
I thought about replacing my single AGM battery with a “drop in” LiFePO4 battery to double our capacity, but the term “drop in” isn’t quite accurate since you really need a compatible charge controller and DC to DC converter to save the alternator from overheating. Maybe once I have a system failure, i’ll upgrade at that point. Anyway, thanks for doing these videos Ray, you teach us a lot
If you only put in a single 100 AH LiFePO4 battery in I think you will find that it will not be a problem for the alternator. I installed two 100 A Hr SOK brand LiFePO4 batteries and found that together they pulled a maximum of 94 Amps from the alternator. So I needed to add the 50 amp DCDC charger to limit the current. So I expect a single 100 Amp Hr battery would pull 47 Amps max and that would be fine. If you camp in cold weather, go for the new heated Renogy battery.
Thanks for the vids
Very informative. Thanks and Best in the new year! When I go to the WFCO link, can't find your model...8955AD.
They have the different 8900 series model specs here wfcoelectronics.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/WFCO-8900-AD-PowerCenterCat.pdf I don't think the product is widely available for purchase yet.
Thanks for doing the video Ray! How long did it take to bring the batteries up to 100%? Or, what % did you reach after two hours of charging ? Cheers...
They were about 40% charged I have 315 amp hours but we were using power as well so the most important figure is how many amp-hours would be put into the lithium batteries. The converter was charging at around 50 amps for 2 hours so around 100 amp hours and lithium batteries are in the neighborhood of 98% efficiency. 2 hours basically would fully charge a single 100 amp hour battery or 50% charge 2 or 1/3 charge 3 if you weren't drawing any energy out at the same time like we were. Cheers! Ray
I see a lot of comments in forums about replacing their WFCO with a Progressive Dynamic, and a lot of negative opinions of WFCO. Progressive has their PD4655V model that you can swap in for the WFCO, but the problem is it has no stages and constantly puts out the max charge voltage of 14.4v ish without lowering it ever.
I also heard some of the WFCO attempts at the 14.4v lithium model (AD or maybe earlier?) had some issues reaching or keeping that high charge voltage, but apparently it was redesigned to fix that issue. YMMV. I just bought a new trailer and if it has the AD model I plan on keeping it. As the Battle Born tech advised me today.
Thanks Ray! Was wondering if I could just replace the DC charger instead of the entire AC/ DC distribution.
You bet. :)
I did the same with a progressive dynamics unit not a bad install , and a video on CZcams made a difference charging of my Lytham batteries .
I have a PD9260 with charge wizard pendant installed next to my batteries in the front bay. Been using it with the manual 14.4V boost to charge my lithium bank with the generator for a few years with good success. I think I prefer it as I don't have to listen to fan noise inside the living area.
@@LoveYourRV When I start my generator I often have to trip the circuit breaker to my WFCO converter to reset it so it restarts in bulk charging mode, so the fan is either wanted or not wanted depending on what mode the charger decides to boot up as. Such is life in the dry camping world and our toys always keep us learning and yearning as we strive to make boondocking as seamless as living in a campground with full hookups, lol.
@@LoveYourRV how big is your battery bank? I went with the PD9180ALV for a 500AH bank.
I'm wondering if 80amps is overkill.
@@badactor3440 My battery bank was 315AH and 60 amp worked fine with my small 2000W generator any higher of a converter though and it may shut down trying to start due to the high inrush amperage. It will vary depending on the generator's overload sensitivity. I can only tell you from my experience with a couple brands.
Thanks for telling us about this product. Just received my 206 amp Sok battery so this will do nicely but will only get
WF-8955-AD-MBA unit. Will only replace the converter charger. I have cougar TT and do not like the lead-acid batteries.
This should be improvement over the lithium unit they have now since it can charge both types of batteries.
Hey Chris did you install that DC to DC charger? I’ve heard you don’t need one because the 7pin wiring only allows around 7 amps to pass through it.
@@dustinbrooks1562 No, I did not. It is not readily available. By the way this is Ac To Dc converter charger that is in RV.
I changed out my Converter/Charger last March when I installed my two Battlebord LIFEPO4 batteries and it has worked great. The only caveat is that Lance installed a 6 ga wire from the converter to the original lead-acid batteries and I only get 20-amps out of this charger because when the converter is measuring 14.5 volts the batteries are typically only seeing 13.6 volts. Rather than running a larger positive wire up to the batteries (I still might do that), I installed a second Victron 25-amp battery charger up next to the new batteries when I would run my generators so I would see about 45-amps of charging. I used a separately LIFEPO4 solar charger mounted near the batteries to complement the OEM Go Power charger for the solar on the roof. Since we had a lot of shade at our camp hosting site, it worked great to have the bulk of the solar charging come from a ground-mounted array getting most of the sun. This is such a fun technology, but it always keeps me educating myself to solve all of my technology questions. Dave
The autodetect feature must be a new function as mine was advertised as being a replacement for the LIFEPO4 conversion only. Makes me want to upgrade my 6 ga charge wire from converter to battery to 2 ga, that should restore my amperage. Lance never needed anything larger since the lead-acid batteries offered such resistance to charging after a few minutes, but the shortfall is very apparent with LIFEPO4 for sure. Dave
I was asked to install and review the latest WFCO converter too. I changed my mind after watching your excellent video. You are a retired electrical technician (am I right?). I'm a retired radio and TV journalist and photographer. One of us is definitely not qualified to install a converter. So I won't. The new #WFCO converter looks nice though.
Yes, I spent 25 years as an electronic tech fixing consumer electronics like TV's, Stereos,, VCRs Car Audio etc. :)
@@LoveYourRV YOU DA MAN!
Interesting video. Do you also need to upgrade the connection between the tow vehicle's alternator and the lithium battery for charging while driving?
Depends if you desire any significant charging to take place. Most newer trucks use very small gauge tow cable wiring leading to large voltage drops between the tow vehicle alternator and the trailer batteries. Also, the new smart alternators lower the truck alternator voltage output if the truck's onboard computer senses the amperage output has dropped once the truck batteries have charged (i guess to save fuel) further lessening the amperage in the tow cable charge line, so these days not much charging takes place even with lead-acid trailer batteries. At best it's a trickle charge to maintain the trailer batteries. Some people don't care as they charge at the RV park or via solar or by a generator. But an option that I have employed myself is to install a larger gauge cable from the truck battery to the trailer and install a DC-DC charger. I can use it to charge my lithium batteries at 40 amps while towing. Here is the install and demo www.loveyourrv.com/renogy-40-amp-dc-dc-charger-installation-and-demo/ Cheers, Ray
@@LoveYourRV this is awesome info. Thank you!
Yes 👍 🔋⚡🔌💡
Nice.
Have this in my Imagine and just switched it out with a Progressive Dynamics. I made the switch to lithium and this charger is not as auto as they say it is. You have to jump through quite a few hoops to get it to detect the lithium battery and there are many posts from people saying it sometimes does not stay in lithium mode and then you have to jump through more hoops again. Wish they just made it with a switch vs auto detect...it's not hard to flip a switch. The unit I went with is a dedicated lithium charger...figure that would better in the long run vs messing with all the hoops ;) Hope it's working out for you!
I published an update a few months later after using it awhile czcams.com/video/3AApEUvSx4I/video.html More comments to be found below that video from users.
For me, I find when it starts up it usually charges at about 15-20 amps for the first minute then ramps up to 50-55 amps. It will then hold steady at that amperage until the battery bank is charged up. The only glitch I have found is sometimes if I turn off the converter and then back on again quickly it will stay at the lower 15-20 amps and not ramp up higher.
Often I need to turn off the converter when briefly using the microwave so I don’t overload my 2000W generator. That’s how I noticed the behavior. What I have to do is let the charger sit turned off for 5-10 minutes I guess to let residue voltage lower down and then turn it back on. Then it will usually get back to full charging amps again.
As I said in my initial review the fan noise is quite loud especially when it’s charging a full output. We have a large 420 amp-hours lithium battery bank and its charge level is low it can take several hours to recharge and the fan is on full the whole time. In the living area that can get annoying to listen to. If I was to use the WFCO charger as my main means of charging I would likely have to relocate it to a none living area location.
@@LoveYourRV glad to hear that it’s working out okay for you!
Ray with the run of wire to the batteries from the converter did you have to upgrad the wiring to a heavier gauge wire , you mentioned that you had a voltage drop to 13.4 volts at the batteries. If your running Lithium batteries do you not need 14.6v to fully charge them? or is the amps more important ?
I did the testing with the OEM wiring, no upgrade. Here was the follow up video czcams.com/video/3AApEUvSx4I/video.html Cheers, Ray
Thanks for the video. I was thinking about making the same upgrade. What was the power percentage in the batteries after the two hour charge? Just wondering if it came above 50 percent from 17?
They were about 40% charged I have 315 amp hours but we were using power as well so the most important figure is how many amp-hours would be put into the lithium batteries. The converter was charging at around 50 amps for 2 hours so around 100 amp hours and lithium batteries are in the neighborhood of 98% efficiency. 2 hours basically would fully charge a single 100 amp hour battery or 50% charge 2 or 1/3 charge 3 if you weren't drawing any energy out at the same time like we were.
@@LoveYourRV thanks very much from Nova Scotia for the detailed reply.
Just purchased a hybrid travel trailer that has this Same converter charger. I’m adding a 200ah Lifepo4 next week. Sounds like it should work find, but I still don’t know how the new battery will affect my charging via the 7 pin trailer connection?
I guess it may depend on your truck but on my 2018 Ram 3500 for example the 7 pin tow cable charge wire is so thin gauged and such a long wire run that it doesn't make much difference to anything. I have a 315 amp hour lithium RV battery bank, I just left things the way they were. Over 2 years now and no issues.
Since it's so thin gauged and such a long run of wire the voltage drop is quite a bit and the lithium batteries naturally sit at a higher voltage than lead-acid, so it doesn't really do much anyway.
I find it's mainly a few amp trickle charge at best when the engine is running. It is like trying to blow up an air mattress using a really thin straw.
@@LoveYourRV This is EXACTLY what Battle Born told me on the phone today. Kindof self limiting, due to the long resistive thin wire, and the fact the lithium is already a fairly high voltage compared to the truck alternator. He said the most you could probably get from the truck trying to charge the trailer is about 2 or 3 amps. I asked about a DC to DC charger but it really is a waste in this situation. Different for a self contained motorhome due to wiring and lengths.
@@SnookerML If interested, I have done amperage tests on the 7-pin cable in my Ram 3500 pickup www.loveyourrv.com/7-pin-tow-cable-charging-tests-using-lithium-rv-batteries/ and installed and used DC-DC chargers. 40 amp Renogy www.loveyourrv.com/renogy-40-amp-dc-dc-charger-installation-and-demo/ and 50 amps SRNE www.loveyourrv.com/testing-out-an-srne-50-amp-dc-dc-charger-mppt-solar-controller-combo/ For the DC-DC chargers to work a larger gauge cable needs to be run from the truck to trailer. I ran a 4 gauge. Cheers, Ray
Really surprised you were able to get 55 amps out of it with factory wires. On my Rockwood, I had to run a new 4 gauge from power center to battery bus where my 280ah lithium ties in. Before the wire, I could only charge at 38 amps, after I got the full shot.
Mine is about a 20 foot run of 6 gauge for the positive and uses frame return path for negative. One thing to do is make sure all the connections are clean and tight. On my rig the 12V power distribution negative cable attaches to the frame between my tires, a really dirty area that gets lots of wetness, so the connection can corrode easily and cause some resistance.
When you buy a new inverter charge center check your wire size and that determines what size system you can put in . Battleborn told me to get a 40 amp system because that’s what size my system was and not to get a 60 or you may melt some wires.
If you don't exceed the amperage of the previous OEM installed lead acid charger you should be fine as the wire has been size and fused correctly for it's max amp rating. If you go higher what will happen is the OEM fuse/breaker will blow as it has been sized to protect the wiring from overheating and melting. Cheers, Ray
Hi Ray, have you looked into the benefits of a hybrid system, to increase max available amperage. I was thinking either lithium/lead acid or lithium/capacitors. Just curious.
No real reason to. My 3 Lion Energy lithium batteries can each discharge up to 150 amps continuously so three in parallel can output 450 amps and much more than that for short durations. I think the quick spike peak is 900 amps per battery. If I ever needed to power more that than I have a diesel truck with dual lead acid batteries and could use jumper cables. So I guess in a way I already have a hybrid system. Cheers, Ray
Hello, love your videos. We have a new camper van that unfortunately didn’t come with Lithium. I’ve seen on other videos I will need to also add a Lithium capable isolation switch since we have chassis and coach batteries.
You agree with that assumption?
Thanks! Generally, it's a good idea but hard to answer definitively over the internet. There are so many variations of motorhome wiring out there. I personally don't know a whole lot about motorhome setups being a trailer owner.
Your rig may already have sufficient isolation in place, hard to say. Usually, there is some sort of a one-way switch so power only flows to the coach batteries when the engine is on. Some will have a more sophisticated voltage sensing switch to prevent over-discharge.
Lithium batteries have a much lower resistance than lead-acid so are capable of drawing much more amperage when charging versus the same size lead-acid. So things to consider are is the existing wiring large enough to handle that without overheating, is the existing isolation switch able to handle it, and is the alternator powerful enough to provided the additional amperage without overheating. One solution is to install a DC-DC charger to handle the isolation and charge at a rate the existing alternator/wiring can handle. Sort of a different application but an example I installed a 40 amp for charging off my tow vehicle alternator www.loveyourrv.com/renogy-40-amp-dc-dc-charger-installation-and-demo/
One thing you could do is nose around RV dealers and look for an OEM system that has lithium coach batteries and see what they did. Cheers, Ray
@@LoveYourRV yea I was reading in the comments here about the DC/DC charger but for just 1x 100aH another guy suggested the alternator should be fine.
Guess it depends on the battery spec. For example, I run Lion Energy UT1300s and their BMS spec for max charging rate is 100 amps for a single 105 ah battery, that's a fairly hefty load for an alternator. Now that amperage will vary depending on the resistance of the wiring and connection points between the alternator and the coach battery, so hard to say what it will end up being. With resistance comes voltage drop and reduced current so it may not charge anywhere near max spec. The easiest thing to do is give it a try and measure the charge amperage with a clamp-on amp meter and check to see if any wires or connectors get too hot. Like I said there are so many variations at play it's hard to know.
This Converter came with my trailer I purchased in 2022 and it did not work. I have 2 LifePO4 batteries installed and the only way that I could get it to go to lithium mode (blue LED) was to let them discharge until they shut down. The problem is that they revert Back to normal mode after the charge cycle. I contacted WFCO and they did send me a replacement which did not work either. It seems that they only tested with a few batteries so it will not work with all. The problem has been reported in numerous forums all over the internet. If you are going to upgrade I would suggest a different manufacturer.
Interesting, but the location of the charger still has to go through the 25 feet of 6 gauge wire to your batteries. From the video of you battery monitor it looked like there was a 10 amp difference but you did say you had loads running. Amazon currently has that converter on for 65% off here in Canada!
I showed the actual output voltage and amperage at the converter output. So that was pretty sweet that is was able to overcome the long wire and still produce close to max 55A current. I guess because they are using 14.6V for the lithium bulk mode.
We were camping and using some 12V loads and an inverter was powering my wife's iMac and also a portable freezer. That accounts for the amperage difference at the battery bank shunt measurement. What is the Amazon link, I wasn't unaware this converter was for sale yet.
I went to a 100AH Lifepo4 battery in my Rockwood and was thinking about this converter upgrade. Thanks for the great video about it. Just curious, after the 2 hours of charging at 50 amps, what did your battery bank charge % end up being? How much did it recover from the original 17%?
They were about 40% charged I have 315 amp hours but we were using power as well so the most important figure is how many amp-hours would be put into the lithium batteries. The converter was charging at around 50 amps for 2 hours so around 100 amp hours and lithium batteries are in the neighborhood of 98% efficiency. 2 hours basically would fully charge a single 100 amp hour battery or 50% charge 2 or 1/3 charge 3 if you weren't drawing any energy out at the same time like we were.
Yess interesting and useful video as all your videos are. Thank you. The thing that worries me is the fan noise. My trailer being a very small area, The converter fan comes out even louder. Are there other converter brand that heats less, fabless? Does the converter work more for lithium. The fan my existing Parallax 8355 , 55 amps, hardly ever come on. I think I heard it once in 4 years I have 2 AGM 220a 6 v but in the making to replace for 2 Lion energy Lithium. Cheers Ray 🤗
If you are charging near max amperage then most chargers will have a fan noise, they usually have variable fans that spin faster the higher the amperage, some more that others I imagine. I do find my Intelipower charger is quieter than this WFCO, maybe a better fan design. When the batteries are charged the fan usually slows down dramatically or quits completely as the amperage gets very low. So the loud fan noise will mostly happen when charging up low batteries with a generator or when first hooking to shore power until the batteries get charged then it will stop.
@@LoveYourRV Does it eventually shut off if there is not much usage? I think it's why mine doesn't start, I don't use much amperage in the RV. Thank You Ray.
Yes, it only runs when it needs to keep the electronic cool when putting out higher wattage of charge.
@@LoveYourRV TYhat would mean it could still run if not asked too much?
I am still on the fence about changing out my led acid $94 Walmart batteries for expensive lithiums. . Didn't even think that I'd have to also change the charger. Not sure how much benefit there is to lithium?
Likely if you are on the fence then honestly I don't think you don't need them. :) Wait until they drop more in price or the price of lead-acid rises closer to them. If you don't dry camp that much or don't plan to have the RV and dry camp consistently for say a decade or more for them to pay back then they aren't worth the upfront cost. Overall they will be cheaper in the long run but that's only if you need the power and actually use them. Sitting on an RV park hookup and the odd day or two off-grid is just as good with lead-acid as lithium. Cheers, Ray
Like the big guy said, if you don't dry camp it's not needed. But if you DO, then:
Capacity: You get 100AH out of a lithium vs about 50% of the same physical size lead acid, which is about 70AH so half is 35AH, because if you drain the lead acid too low (below 12.1v or 50% of capacity, then it degrades its lifespan). So almost 3 times the current AND the voltage doesn't droop on lithium.
Faster Charge: The lithiums will charge faster as well, but ONLY if you upgrade your charger (like the AD unit described here) so it puts out the full 14.4v or so, AND at high current. Your older converter for lead acid will not charge at this higher voltage, or not for long enough and high enough current, so it will take a long time to charge the lithium, but probably won't hurt it. Look at the Battle Born tech pages for a better description.
@@SnookerML Thanks for that answer!!
Smart charger
Our new trailer came with a WFCO AD. Just got off the phone with WFCO tech support. They said the AD circuit board is supposed to have a led on the backside to get indicate which type battery it auto-detected. Green indicates LA batteries, blue indicates Li batteries.
Did to check that the rear of the circuit board had the correct color Led light?
The aftermarket unit I tested doesn't have an LED on the back of the circuit board. It just has a lot of solder connections and circuit traces. But, I could tell it was in Lithium mode by the higher voltage output. If it was in Lead Acid mode it would be 14.4VDC or less. I measured over 14.5VDC. Funny place to put the LED though, on the backside where you can't easily see it. Maybe the indicator LED is an OEM thing ( I could see where it would help the installers to quickly test the system) or a newer generation of the circuit board. Mine was an early version they sent to me for testing. Cheers, Ray
I just found out the light is on the converter circuit board and not the DC distribution circuit board. So I pulled out the converter and the light is indeed blue. Cheers, Ray
Thank your for this. Have what is probably a stupid question. Thinking of getting 2 100ah Lithium batteries. I was going to use the 8945 (not 55) as my van has 30 amp service. Will the 8945 AD handle 2 100 ah batteries? Everything is within 3 feet of each other (batteries and converter) so I could easily upgrade the wiring. Should I think of going to the 55? Any opinions would be sincerely appreciated. Love the channel.
Yes, it will handle them. The model 8945 will output a max 45 amps, doesn't matter how many lithium batteries you have hooked up to it. It will self regulate to only outputting max 45 amps. Cheers, Ray
@@LoveYourRV so, after this change, consider a dc to dc charger to protect my alternator?
@@johnroyer3191 I think it's a great idea, but a lot depends on the existing wiring and battery isolation and your alternator amperage capacity. Here is a recent video I did about the topic when it comes to trucks and trailers. www.loveyourrv.com/7-pin-tow-cable-charging-tests-using-lithium-rv-batteries/
@@LoveYourRV I will watch. Thank you again, appreciate your patience and knowledge.
Hey Ray, If I just switched to a LiFePh battery do I need the replacement model or just the converter charger? I have no other upgrades to my RV.
You will just need to change the converter to one that can output the voltage required to fully charge the LiFePO battery. You don't need it to be auto detect though, I'd get a manual switch one or just a lithium only one. The auto detect can be a little flakey at times.
@@LoveYourRV Awesome, thank you!
Hello Ray, The Auto Detect D Replcacement models are now available. Before I put it in, I was wondering if you are satisfied of yours, I heard you will do a review in the spring but I wanted to get the part while I am still in the US and would love to hear a little of your opinion of it. Any bic cons? Is the fan very noisy often? nb. I just installed 2 Lion Energy Safari UT1300. Safe Travels, Cheers from hot Florida :-0)
Can't say yet. I haven't had a chance to use it much as I've only been on electric hookups for 3 days since early December. Solar has powered us well in the desert. Come May I'll get more of a chance to test as we will be camping in Provincial Parks on Vancouver Island for 6 weeks so not much solar power under the trees and will need to use the gas generator more to plug into and charge using the converter charger.
@@LoveYourRV Ah,, yes! All right then, I will wait for your input and get the part later. It might drop in price too. That is if I can restrain myself from yet another project 😝. Thank You Ray.
What is the price difference between replacing just the 55w converter and the new whole new unit ? Thanks. Godspeed.
I'm not sure as they haven't released the product to market as far as I know but I think the bulk of the cost is the converter charger, not so much the plastic case and DC board
👍
Hi, I have a question I just change my charge converter to the one that you’re using here but I did not change the DC board because they told me at the factory I did not need to. Is this correct?
Yes, the DC distribution board is pretty much the same from what I can tell.
I just purchased this power converter and installed it today and was only getting a max of 14 amps into my new lithium battery. I did not receive a manual so I didn’t know about the one charge cycle it needed to detect what mode to charge. Tomorrow I’ll have to drain the battery some and see if it charges it in the correct mode. Unfortunately the online manuals still are not available. Thanks for the video, that info might have saved me lots of grief of trying to figure out what is wrong, fingers crossed that is what might problem is.
It must have to use the differing voltage and amperage curve characteristics between lithium and lead acid to determine. Those are most evident the closer the battery gets to full charge. A lithium battery will draw high amperage almost right until full whereas a lead acid battery amperage draw starts to drop dramatically once it gets to 85-90% full as its internal resistance increases. So that my guess as to why it needs to have a least one charge cycle. I imagine the default is lead acid. Cheers, Ray
@@LoveYourRV well unfortunately it is still charging in lead acid mode. I ran the battery down to 13.0 volts and tried to charge and the converter only shows 13.6 volts at the lugs on the circuit board. My battery monitor says it’s putting in 10-14 amps. I guess I should of bought the old model that has a manual switch.
Maybe the wiring run is just too long and thin gauged in your trailer creating too much voltage drop for the auto-detect to work right. Just a guess. You could try and bring the battery inside and attach it directly to the converter output with a set of thick cables and see if charging it that way puts it into LI mode. If not there must be something wrong with the converter. If it does you could try and then return the battery to its normal position and see how that works. If it works, fine, if not you could try and increase the gauge of the feed.
@@LoveYourRV That’s a good idea I’ll try that tomorrow. My rig is a 2012 Cougar 27SAB fifth wheel. I would think they would of run heavy enough cable being the previous converter was also a 55 amp, but they may have skimped since LA batteries don’t get charged at a high amperage. It has been charging for the last 4 hours at 4 amps and the Li battery is at 13.4v. I
@@LoveYourRV No luck. I moved the battery inside and tried short heavy gauge cables. I have been emailing back and forth with WFCO tech support and he said there is a green light on the circuit board when it’s charging in LA mode and a blue light when in LI mode. My circuit board is lit up green so it’s definitely in LA mode. So either I got a bad power converter or it doesn’t work with Renogy LI batteries. I’ll let you know how it turns out in case somebody else later has the same issue.
Bigger is not always better and lithium will pull a ton with to large of wire so I put one set up for my system so a Renorgy 40 dc to dc and it works great and you have to set those little diff switches, so we are good .
I used a 40 amp DC-DC charger to charge from my truck battery and now have a 50 amp model. It draws about 50 - 60 amps from the alternator, so I used 4 gauge cable from truck battery to the trailer battery. Works great.
What does it mean "one full charge cycle"? How far down does the battery have to be discharged to trigger there lithium profile? I installed this unit and have been unable to get it into lithium mode. Wfco says I have to send it back for a firmware upgrade.
I would guess they would mean run the lithium battery down to about 10-15% capacity where lithium will start to drop in voltage at a faster rate and then fully recharge it. Lithium and lead acid charge curves are very different so it gives the converter charger a test to decide which it is. I imagine they have tweaked the microprocessor software to better recognize thus the firmware upgrade. Cheers, Ray
Ok,is there something that will replace my WFCO 8735 AD which fits in the same place from a different company?
Iota and Progressive Dynamics both make lithium charger converters, maybe one of their models would fit. Or the converter could be mounted in a different spot like say near the batteries. Cheers, Ray
good data gathering... I'm surprised you're using a gas instead of propane generator, if you ever get an opportunity to eval a propane genest it would be interesting to see what you think. The champion dual generator has gotten a lot of good reviews
If I used the generator a lot I'd likely be more interested in dual fuel. But mostly it's just to charge my batteries as a fall back so a couple gallons of gas last a long time for us. I boondock in the winter so don't need to run AC and have a boatload of solar so generator run time averages about 30-40 hours over the course of a 6-month winter trip south. Also in the wintertime, I need my propane for many other things like the furnace, Big Buddy heater, fridge, campfire bowl, and water heater. Cheers, Ray
@@LoveYourRV thanks Ray, how long did it take you to go from 17% to top off your batteries (I believe you have 300 Amp hours) using your gas genset or how much fuel did you burn?
I didn't bother keeping it running, just wanted to do a 2-hour test as that is the common time period allowed in State and National parks. I let my 940W rooftop solar array keep charging the rest of the day ended up at about 66% capacity for my 315 amp hour bank. It's about the worse time of year since the days are short and the sun angle is low. I don't use tilts on my panels so they are flat on the roof.
No need to top off the batteries, that's a lead-acid thing, lithium doesn't need to be topped off. But, for the 50-55 amp WFCO draw my generator it would likely use about a gallon or so of gas for a 6-hour session that would fill my batteries from near-empty with no solar input at all.
@@LoveYourRV my setup is the opposite of yours, I have 600 amp hour bank with just 390 watt solar panels on my truck camper for now I like to get another 200 watt on the roof, but I have a feeling I’ll be in the market for a portable genset… how long before EV charging station start accommodating RVs to charge their batteries? Lol
Can you just get just the charger ? Can you just change the charger and leave the old 12 volt part also ?
Yes
You didn't show the final state of charge of your lithium batteries after two hours. What was it?
They were about 40% charged I have 315 amp hours but we were using power as well so the most important figure is how many amp-hours would be put into the lithium batteries. The converter was charging at around 50 amps for 2 hours so around 100 amp hours and lithium batteries are in the neighborhood of 98% efficiency. 2 hours basically would fully charge a single 100 amp hour battery or 50% charge 2 or 1/3 charge 3 if you weren't drawing any energy out at the same time like we were.
Had a puff of smoke come out where my converter / breaker box is identical to this... power stayed on for another 20 minutes then died. Any suggestions? Will replacing this unit likely fix my problem?
I'd disassemble things and try and find what smoked. Something should look burnt. If its inside the converter charger a replacement should fix but it may be an arced connection somewhere else.
@@LoveYourRV thank you, there was swelling and fluid on top of the large capacitors in the converter pretty sure that’s what it was. Will know soon!
If that is the case it sounds like it may have had an overvoltage experience. Meaning a high voltage power surge from the shore power.
hello i have a question what does it mean GEN on my RV electro Box ?
On mine the GEN labeled breaker refers to general type AC outlets as opposed to the GFCI (ground-fault circuit interrupter) ones. The GFCI outlets are usually installed near sinks and showers and outside. The rest are general type. Cheers, Ray
@@LoveYourRV Okay because I don’t have a switch for the converter and I want to add one. The switch that my RV box has right now only says GEN and the cables that are connected to the converter are together and I want to separate them.
Can we get an update as to how well this works?
Yes, there was an update video published last spring czcams.com/video/3AApEUvSx4I/video.html Also, read the comments, as there have been others that had used this converter and shared their opinions and findings. Cheers, Ray.
The increasing practice of 'Big Solar/Big Lithium Bank/Big Alternate Charging Sources' approach might be today's ultimate method for gobs of RV AC power. But all that weight, cost and complexity can look overwrought & unnecessary if one cam just take inverter AC power off the tow vehicle, which is becoming more common. We 'plug in' to our F150 and have more AC power available than we use; the truck takes care of the on/off management. That truck option cost hundreds of dollars and is simple vs. thousands and complicated.
Sounds like you don't use much power for your camping lifestyle. If you did, the last thing you'd want to do is use a large truck engine as a generator. Better to get a small gas inverter generator.
@@LoveYourRV Total power available is 7.2 KW, Ray. One can arc weld off the power available.
I'm not familiar with this F150 option. What is supplying the 7.2W power? Engine or batteries? Is it an electric truck?
Looks like a good option for some if they have the new truck anyway and have a compatible camping lifestyle but I see some drawbacks that make me think many people will build out an RV power system anyway.
Once a person has solar panels, inverter, and lithium batteries for the RV they are set and can service things easily. Often times it's free power from the sun. Most of the year power just quietly takes care of itself, no motor turning on and off and wear and tear on the tow vehicle. If the truck is away from the trailer for various reasons we still have the same power choices. I wouldn't want my RV power system tied up in a complex vehicle that likely needs a dealer or advanced mechanic shop to repair and service, likely with proprietary parts. I like having various power sources for redundancy. I see this mostly applying to people that need AC in hot environments for camping so need the power to run AC all night. Still, I don't think I'd want my expensive truck doing the job of a cheap generator. Will be interesting to see how this trend plays out. See if it will be a popular commercial job site option to run tools, etc. or more RVers adopt it. We often time camp for a week or two in the same location, I don't think I'd want my truck turning on and off charging up its onboard battery versus my solar array quietly providing our power needs. But that is a lifestyles thing. Cheers, Ray
@@LoveYourRV Yup, just like your system Ray, it isn't perfect nor for everyone. RV'ers with Powerboosts call it a game changer, ranchers can work fence lines and build offsite sheds, the crew building the house down the street can stop lugging those generators back 'n forth, and I can work in AZ heat at my storage lot in comfortable AC. You are looking thru a full-timer lens (like so many CZcams RV'ers) while most of us are part-timers. That's when this shines: easy, works reliably, less weight.
My 8955-AD has been Nothing but PROBLEMS ! Bought it for my 2021 Grand Design 5th-wheel after adding a SOK 206aH lithium battery, the original converter not being compatible with lithium. Could not get it to charge the battery, has to send it in for "firmware" update (2-week turnaround). Still took a whole lot of effort to get it working.. had to drop the SOK battery down to a 4% charge to jump-start the converter. Now, six weeks later, it has stopped working completely !!! Called WFCO and they want e to send it back in ? Seriously ? Anyone out there know of a reliable, lithium - dedicated converter?
I've had two WFCOs, a Iota and a Progressive Dynamics. Been lucky, none have failed. But of them all I'd lean towards the Progressive Dynamics brand as my favorite. Here are the lithium models. www.progressivedyn.com/pd9100l/
@@LoveYourRV Thank you, just finished removing the 8955-ad and found that the transformer coating had melted off, so it apparently cooked itself.
I don't see any retailers selling this yet, and WFCO does not sell direct.
As far as I know its a brand new product offering that they are trying to get word out on I presume. The WFCO webpage says soon to be available wfcoelectronics.com/auto-detect/
@@LoveYourRV Apparently it will be available in April. According to the reps at the Fl Rv supershow
Seems its not available according to wfco site
Yes, its coming soon they were looking for someone to test out the unit and get the word out about the new auto-detect technology.
its weird that you would upgrade batteries but not buy the compaitble charger
I actually have a second charger mounted right beside my battery bank area. It was originally installed to improve lead acid charging for a 4 golf cart battery bank. By mounting it closer and it also came with a Charge Wizard pendant with a button that would force it into manual boost mode of 14.4V. I could get a faster charge into the big lead acid bank. Turns out it also works great for lithium charging as well, just have to manually push the button when I want to use it. www.loveyourrv.com/lithium-battery-charge-test-can-you-use-a-lead-acid-charge-converter/ So I have been using that for generator charging. Most of the charging is done by solar controllers and I have a DC-DC charger for alternator charging. So, I didn't really need to install this new converter but decided to do it to test it out for others looking at buying a new RV. At this point my RV is a giant product test bed. :) Cheers, Ray
Charges at higher rate
Have to cycle power to continue bulk is bull.....
You also running the wrong aside batter aswell
Aqua hot diesel
And to make your lithium batteries last only take them down to 20% and only charge them to 80% to get the longest life .
I won't be overly concerned. The charge cycle ratings of a LiFePO, on average, is 3000-4000, and even after that, it should still have 80% capacity, so I don't see much point in babying them to save a little bit of lifespan. May as well use the capability. Down to about 10%, I find they can put out full-rated amperage. After that, it falls off, so I try to stay above 10%. Going to 100% doesn't bother me, though, except if they would be sitting there for extended periods. I try not to let that happen. Cheers, Ray
ZERO point in swapping that fuse board, just move the new converter + and - wires to the existing board. I'm swapping a PD4655Li into my WFCO 8955 right now, and this will be the THIRD time I've swapped a RV power converter.
I decided to since I had it anyway. The new board had a more modern LED array and thought it was good to get all fresh connectors. Cheers, Ray
Maybe swap the cooling fan from the original converter? What is it with these manufactures, they never seem to care how much noise there products generate, I guess the CEO's never RV.
Yeah, I've found out that the vast majority of RV product companies have management and many employees that never RV. Guess that's why they like to get guys like me to test stuff. Its more about the amperage. If my original could put out the same it would be just as loud, they use a variable speed fan. More amps or higher temps louder it goes. At least so far I haven't noticed this one surging like the old one did at times. That was even more annoying. Cheers, Ray
@@LoveYourRV Well I suppose if you are desperate you could locate the converters charger to the front with the rest of your charging system?
@@seanwalsh999 Yes, I actually have an Intelipower PD9260 with a charge wizard pendant installed next to my batteries in the front bay. Been using it with the manual 14.4V boost to charge my lithium bank with the generator for a few years with good success. Installed it back when I have lead-acid batteries www.loveyourrv.com/installing-the-inteli-power-pd9260-for-improved-rv-battery-charging/ I think I prefer it as I don't have to listen to fan noise inside the living area. But wanted to test out and review this unit for people. Cheers, Ray
@@LoveYourRV Yes now people can decide if they want to live with fan noise or not thanks' to your test results. My converter has a variable fan as well but I never found it objectionable, although it wasn't trying to cool a charger pumping out 50 amps at a constant rate. It is just idling along or not at all on shore power.
With 300AH battery capacity, why didn't you go with a 70 amp unit?
2 main reasons. I didn't want to overload the OEM DC wiring designed for the stock 55 amp converter (60 amp fuse) and wasn't prepared to spend the money upgrading things since I have other charging options such as a second 60 amp converter charger installed next to the battery bank. Also, some 2000W (1600W continuous power) generators like I carry have a hard time not going into overload when first starting up a 70 amp converter charger due to the inrush current. This is most likely when the outside temps are hot or at higher elevations. Cheers, Ray
@@LoveYourRV Got it. I had to upgrade some wiring after I installed a PD9180ALV.