Cessationism Interview With Dr. Tom Pennington
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- čas přidán 29. 06. 2024
- In the latest episode of the Didache podcast, Justin Peters interviews Dr. Tom Pennington, pastor of Countryside Bible Church, on his book, "A Biblical Case for Cessationism: Why the Miraculous Gifts of the Spirit Have Ended." The discussion delves into cessationism, the belief that miraculous gifts have ceased with the Apostolic Age, versus continuationism, which holds that such gifts persist. Pennington clarifies cessationism, countering misconceptions of the Holy Spirit's inactivity post-Pentecost, asserting the Spirit's ongoing, vital role through non-miraculous means like Scripture. The conversation covers the New Testament's categorization of spiritual gifts, historical patterns of miracles, and responses to common counterarguments, emphasizing the sufficiency of Scripture and the dangers of undermining it through extrabiblical revelations.
Links and Time Stamps:
Cessationist Book by Dr. Tom Pennington:
g3min.org/shop/books/g3press/...
Cessationist Movie:
cessationistmovie.com
Cessationist Conference Oct. 3-5, 2024:
g3min.org/events/cessationist...
Dr. Tom Pennington's sermon on Cessationism at Strange Fire:
• A Case for Cessationis...
Countryside Bible Church in Southlake, TX:
countrysidebible.org
God Doesn't Whisper by Jim Oman:
jimosman.com
00:00 - 00:57 - Introduction
00:57 - 07:04 - What is Cessationism and what are the miraculous gifts?
07:05 - 11:10 What about the frequency of miracles? Were there really just 3 periods of miracles?
11:11 - 18:58 What about the apparent fading of miracles chronologically through the NT?
18:59 - 22:50 Does what we see today in the charismatic movement resemble what we see in the NT?
22:51 - 26:03 Have many charismatics already ceded the basic cessationist premise?
26:04 - 29:33 Does God still speak today but in a less authoritative way than He did in scripture?
29:33 - 34:41 Does 1 Peter 4:11 say that God is still speaking in an authoritative way outside of scripture?
34:42 - 39:02 What is the testimony of church history regarding the miraculous gifts?
39:03 - 54:13 Why is this such an important issue?
54:14 - 56:35 Do cessationists really have a low view of the Holy Spirit?
56:36 - 01:03:11 The danger of the charismatic emphasis on signs, wonders, dreams, and visions over that of scripture
______________________
➡️ Find all of Justin's essential links here: linktr.ee/justinpetersmin
EXCELLENT interview. It helped clear up my misunderstanding on what cessation is. THANK YOU. praise God for your ministry ❤
Wonderful! Praise the Lord!
I don't why you praise God for that, he didn't answers your questions. He avoided the silence argument. All he he did was give examples, but he didn't address your question of "You can't make an argument from silence" I think you have to tackle that issue head on. Why is the using silence a good way to draw truth out of the text? You see for me the issue with Cessainism isn't its conclusion, it's the processes used to get there. I feel like we're saying, that Silence is good way to draw truth from the Bible - as if to say "Because the Bible doesn't say / record/ it must mean this..." That to me is an extremely dangerous herumentic and its why i can't hold Cessanism as a doctrine. It feels like Logic and Silence is swaped for feelings and experience. Which is why i feel you're laying the on the same foundation... the foundation of experience. Except in this case. it's whats not experienced. Could you image Samuel being told God's voice was in his head, simply because of the hermeneutical idea that the silence of God Voice meant that God doesn't speak to people anymore? Could imagine the outright rape of the Bible when we go to people and say "Because we see no mention or recording of this issue.... its okay to act in this way? And that is so dangerous and yet its the core argument in this issue @@JustinPetersMin
I was previously in a charismatic church that didn't preach sin, and salvation was just as simple as inviting Christ on your life journey. Praise God, my eyes were open to the true Biblical Gospel.
How does NOT PREACHING sin follow from teaching or not teaching spiritual gifts? The best counter example is PAUL who preached against sin AND taught the proper use of the gifts.
I listened to the first four minutes and yes it confirmed what cessationism truly is. It's heresy.
One of the biggest problems that the church worldwide suffers... is basing one's faith on their own experience...and that includes many sincere Jesus lovers. Going to a tongue-talking church where there is little to no manifestations of the gifts of the Spirit, healings, miracles etc often leads to doubting their authenticity. Christianity appears easier without all those expectations to grow in faith, move in the gifts, receive healing, inherit genuine promises (not talking false prosperity here). I've lived amongst good christian people who have erased half the words of Jesus, dismiss His promises, question those who do press in and share the great testimonies to God's faithfulness. I wonder what bible they read. The one where it says we have today a different gospel than the one that both Jesus and Paul preached? What chapter and verse says miracles, signs and wonders and gifts of the Spirit have ceased, when millions worldwide testify otherwise? Supposedly the cessationist is always pointing to the word of God?
Thank you for this....I was a charismatic for many years and I now argue that the emphasis on signs and wonders robs people of the person of Christ and the emphasis on the prophetic robs folk of the wonder of the bible. ......It is so sad...
The Bible speaks about "Jesus was moved with compassion. " The church needs less showmanship regarding the gifts of the spirit, and more compassion for the sick, the outcast, and the hurting. Compassion and empathy is at the heart of true miracles!
I'm not a Cessationist, rather Spirit filled and I know the problems that exist in the mess that is called Charismatic and I agree with your assessment. The problem I see in the Charismatic is the predominence of the flesh. And it is driven by the leaders, 'my church', 'our church'. The attitudes of showmanship come from trying to be better than the next church with 'more'. As the apostle Paul taught, the greatest gift is love and all the spiritual gifts subordinate. Love will always remain when the spiritual gifts have become redundant at his return. The charlatans exist mainly in the Charismatic churches because it is prime territory for those with 'itching ears' wanting to be tantilised. Cheers
I agree that there are too many superficial charismatics. I have a friend who belongs to UPC, and they teach that you need to speak in tongues in order to be saved. The poor guy is constantly unsure of his salvation, I remind him it's about grace, mercy, and forgiveness through Christ alone. The gifts of the spirit have their place in a believers' life, but I feel charismatics put to much of an emphasis on them. We need more substance and less noise in our lives. Take care and be well!
@@lawcreations6805 I would advise them to read 1 Cor 12, 'Do all speak in tongues?' The Charismatic leaders totally disregard Paul's teachings on spiritual gifts and they do so because, in their pride and arrogance, it doesn't fit their need. Cheers
Great point, Thank you !!
If the gifts are still operating, wouldn't it be an amazing testimony of God's grace to empty the hospitals ?
I would LOVE that 😢
no human being can limit God. But people think that God is a genie who answers all prayers with "yes!"
They need a healthy dose of 2 Corinthians 12.7-9
He is not a genie, but Jesus did say; "If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you." John 15:7.
Defining the term is so important. I was given the wrong definition of cessationism years ago and because of that I had a biased against those who taught it. When I finally looked it up for myself I realized it was exactly what I already believed.
I think that happens a LOT in christianity where one denomination defines the same word differently.
Thanks Justin! Your channel never "ceases" to impress me. It "continues" to provide excellent content. It is truly a "gift"! 😄
Ha! I see what you did there! Blessings to you 🙂
😂
Very impressive interview gentleman one in which I totally agree with thank you both and may God continue to bless thee both!!
Thank you so much, Randy!
Justin! It's Dan Renton! I'm that guy wh oned you about the weird church in three HIlls Alberta. I think the answer Pennington gave was just awful in 11:27. It really s ounds like what we saying is if it's never mentioned we can conlude what we want. I've runinto arguments like this whenvarious issues, the argument goes like this "Because we don't see mentioned or occur it must mean_____. I think that is extremly dangerous way to draw anything out of the word..... Why would it be okay to argue from silence on this issue, but not on others? Like I could make the argument that the church fathers never wrote down they stopped. t doesnt mean they thought they continued.... Making biblical claims from whats not mentione is super super dangerous and that is the big problem I have, it really feels like its argument based upon what is expereienced and it really feels Cessanisim is grounded upon the same foundation as Bethel Experience over the BIble.@PetersMin
@@JustinPetersMin How to you explain this? A lady says God showed her to pray fro my brother-in-law. Something was wrong but she didn't know what it was. It was pressing on her hard. She invited my brother-in- law to prayer and church. He didn't go. Shortly after , he almost died. Luckily, he was passing the hospital and collapsed over there. Doctors rushed to him in time . He had pulmonary embolism and didn;t know. The timing was so right. Everyone agrees that God was speaking to the lady. How do you view this matter?
The answer is God is still speaking to His people, which Justin does not believe. I had a similar experience with a close friend who I contacted a presented the gospel is the boldest way I have in my 40 yrs of living and he passed away unexpectedly shortly after at 38 yrs of age. God still speaks, period.
@@christianmarshrosey1977God still does direct miracles at will we just do not believe that miracles are still through the means of human beings. I tend to not believe God speaking directly to people in todays time. He already spoke. He speaks for a purpose and his purpose has already been fulfilled.
I haven't come to the conclusion that cessationism is biblical yet. But I will continue to listen to both sides (continuationism and cessationism) I love brother Justin and his ministry. May we as Christians, myself included, be humble in Christ to hear different sides. I will say this, in my opinion, the reformed brothers in Christ have a zeal and a passion for the Word of God that inspires me to another level. Praise God!
Well, it’s not unbiblical 🤷🏻♂️
And ‘Restoration’ is closer to the truth.
Where were these gifts in the intervening centuries before Azusa Street (as an example) ??
What are your hang ups?
Good for you!
When I see big doctrines (meaning: with great impact) that have no Biblical basis, but instead have to be argued to a level that gets no better than eisegesis (and downhill from there), I smile bitterly. Went through all the arguments out there...they don't pass an unbiased judgement, sort of: "You've never heard about this, this is God's Word, open It, read It, and then tell me your conclusion."
Catholics have more "support" for Papacy in the Scriptures than Cessationists for Cessationism.
I am also amused when I read the implied "general consensus" that you're either a Cessationist or a Charismatic swinging from chandeliers.
Wish you all the best in your search. I don't think one need be a Continuationist to be saved. (I am even confinced that Calvinists are saved 😉.)
Please check Gavin Ortlund's (channel "Truth Unites") video on the documentary "Cessationist". I know he just had a "dedication" on this channel via Ken Ham, where his arguments were treated in anything but a graceful manner. I was actually shocked how unprepared Ham was, when he was repeating arguments that Ortlund anticipated in his video.
@@nopenoperton249 Hi. What I'm about to say isn't to start a debate. Rather I'm being honest for truth's sake. I personally, just can't see in the bible where it definitively supports 'cessationism'. This is how I feel as of today- God may still administer "miraculous gifts" today, but I am yet to see a SINGLE, a SINGLE case today. A couple years back God allowed me to taste the charismatic nonsense to teach me about their deception. But I went to the polar opposite extreme where I rejected too much, even good things that were truly of God. These days I am somewhat hesitant to agreeing with either side. Having been on both sides of the extreme I think this is the wisest thing for me personally at this time. This is something I won't stop seeking answers for. I know that God will answer me in His timing, and His way. But I do know that if I am convinced of either, it will be the Word of God that has the impact. Do pray for me. 👍
Excellent biblical discussion!
Thank you
Love your work Justin - Luca Melbourne Australia
True doctrine and the scriptures are more than enough for me. More of Jesus, less of me. I must decrease, He must increase. Blessings gentlemen for a true interpretation. ❤
Also Jesus said that the next time he drinks wine (as in the lords' supper) will be when He returns at His second coming. Therefore we do it in rememberance of Him! Thanks for this interview Justin.
I moved and am looking for a new church. (Sadly, Dallas is a long, long way. 😉) I've been visiting churches. There is probably 20 to choose from and I'm in a small town! I appreciate hearing this. I got sucked into the charismatic stuff when I got saved almost 40 years ago. But over the years have realized it's smoke and mirrors. Bless both of you and thank you. ♥️✝️⛪
Great to see you again Justin God bless you brother thank you for bringing Tom to put the truth across
Amen. I agree with you. God healed my father with a brain tumour in the 40's and healed me of a lung condition. I have been filled with God's spirit and it changed my life.
I know when Holy Spirit speaks to me bc it aligns with the word of God. Nothing I believe he’s speaking or impressing on my heart has ever gone against his word but actually affirms his word and makes me want to obey his word more and read more. His voice shows in many ways and even to non believers but the scripture says he shouts and he has a still small voice . He will always lead you closer to his word and in love for him not away frm him and towards sin
Wonderful one-stop shop of highly dense information that at the very least CLEARLY conveys the cessationist viewpoint accurately, if not convincing the continuationists.
Or Restorationists 😏
@toolegittoquit_001 what's the restorationists? People who think the gifts did cease but came back in the late 1800's/early 1900's?
When my husband and I became believers we got caught up in the charismatic movement.. By studying God's word we quickly saw the fakery of their teachings... We observed the sinfull lives many of the movement lived... It was blasphemy!!! We studied the scriptures and left that behind.... Thank you again Justin and Tom.. Bugsy
Thank you, gentlemen. What an excellent Biblical conversation.
Tom Pennington of the Word Unleashed broadcast. Very educational.
Such a great discussion.....Great TRUTH!...Thank you...:)
Thank you. Your channel never disappoints. I learn so much.
Dead on. We have God's complete revelation to us through his Word.
This is MY pastor and his teaching on this matter is what changed my mind about the sign gifts after being a charismatic for 50 years,
I respect both of your thoughts and interpretation of the word of God. I watch you, Justin, along with John MacArthur and others, whom I enjoy your teachings.
I have been a born-again Christian for 39 years. My conversion was an instantaneous conversion into the new life in Christ. 10 days later, I received the experience spoken of by Jesus in Acts 1:8, the power of the Holy Spirit. I was alone in my bedroom seeking the Lord in prayer when I was filled with the Spirit as I then began to sing and speak in an unknown tongue. If we are in a spiritual battle, why would the Lord end the gifts of the Holy Spirit, as if they are somehow not needed since the end of the first church. It doesn't pass the common sense test to me, out of respect to you two brothers.
Are there many in Pentecostal circles today? Absolutely, there are, and these abuses should be addressed. But, there are many true believers, myself included, that have experienced this biblical experience that is still available to this day. Millions of believers can not be deceived by something demonic or emotional ism. I respect the gift of both of you to teach His word, but consider that this is still viable and present for true believers this present day.
Respectfully.
Greetings from germany - just today i asked this issue. I come from the charismatic church - and i ask myself whats biblical wright. Thank you both for this great talk👍
Tom, your book has been very helpful to me!
It's been two years since I left the Charismatic Movement, because of your clouds without water video. I went to lunch at work that day, to mourn, weep, to repent of all of my sins including tolerating false teaching. I could never be the same again, I knew I would have to follow the Lord unapologetically. Praise God for your ministry.
That's when you experienced the real miracle
AMEN!@@cosmictreason2242
Amen! I had a similar experience...God is so gracious and he gives us time to repent...Glory to God!
This type of talk strengthens my faith.
Praise the Lord! Very encouraging - blessings to you :)
I love sermons with John Mc Arthur true and fault disciples. Thank you Justin for your ministry has really helped me. I left the WOF a few years ago thanks to your ministry and John Mc Arthur love and blessings from Ireland thank you Sir
Thank you both so much for this clear and concise scriptural teaching. God bless your ministries.
Great job and a wonderful interview!!!! I have Dr. Pennington’s book. I see a lot of remarks by the continuationist crowd here. And just wanted to add a few things. I myself have received a true lifesaving miracle yet I am firmly ensconced in the cessationist camp.
Points to ponder.
On the debate of cessationist vs continuationism many on the continuationism side jump for joy when anybody on the cessationist side declares there is no silver bullet, there is no specific verse that you can point to that says the gifts have ceased.
As a cessationist I believe that apostolic or sign gifts have ceased. Because the sign gifts were the mark of an apostle and when they passed so did the gifts. And as a cessationist I do believe that God still heals and preforms miracles but that is not done through the auspices of someone who possesses those gifts rather it is done through the sovereign will of God. No one doubts God’s ability. But the belief is that no one since the apostles has possessed or has walked continuously in the sign gifts.
Continuationism which is the view that miraculous gifts are normative, have not ceased, and are available for the believer today. At least that is the way I understand the basic position.
The key question surrounds the issue of does God still dispense such gifts.
Paul mentions the sign of the apostles in 2 Corinthians 12:12 which clearly states the signs of an apostle are signs, wonders and miracles. If every believer had the ability to perform those same signs, wonders and miracles then what would be the identifying marks of an Apostle? How could Paul make that argument if these gifts were not unique to Apostles?
Acts 2:22 states Jesus was attested by signs, wonders and miracles. So too were the apostles marked by God as special messengers. Acts 14:3 which states the Lord granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands. Also see Rom 15: 18-19 and Gal 3:1-5. All of these point to apostolic authority as being confirmed through miracles, signs and wonders. Hence these are Apostolic gifts. Why are they termed Apostolic gifts if everybody could do them? The implication is these gifts were for Apostles!!!! And there are NO apostles among us today. Nor have they been since the first century.
Isn’t it interesting that Paul never mentions these sign gifts as being practiced by the Corinthians. His concerns are about prophecy, tongues and interpretation of tongues. I will have more to say about those gifts in another post.
De Jure vs De Facto
In short, De Jure simply means that which is recognized by law. While De Facto means practices that exist in reality.
True enough as stated earlier there is no specific scripture which says the gifts have ceased. And Justin repeats an argument he has made elsewhere. And I agree with it 100%. That is the simple question about why there is a debate about whether the gifts are in operation today. When he says that indeed if the gifts were still in operation today then there would be widespread evidence that people were being suddenly healed miraculously and/or other miracles that could not be denied. And thus, no debate because it would be self-evident. But we don’t see that today.
While the continuationist point of view may have the De Jure argument in their court, to a certain point but NOT completely, the De Facto argument of the silence of history weighs heavily against them. The De Facto factor shows that nobody since the time of the apostles has walked in the gifts like the Apostles. While there may have been sporadic or ad hoc manifestations here or there, again the main point is NOBODY has walked in the Apostolic gifts since then.
So, what has happened since the first century? What has been the actual practice? Who has demonstrated that they possess authentic gifts? Oh, there have been groups and individuals here and there who make some wild claims, such as the Montanist, who have been judged to be heretical. Then we have the advent of modern Pentecostalism beginning in 1901 or 1906 if you prefer. And they have been nothing more than a parade of frauds, fakes and flakes. The movement is rife with charlatans. Just who is the real deal from the Pentecostal past or present.
Indeed, sometimes God will heal despite the fakes, flakes and frauds.
Note I am using Pentecostal as a general term to include charismatics, full gospel and other assorted fellow travelers.
And the entire cessationist vs continuist argument lives and dies by tongues...even a Charismatic would tell you that! Nobody really debates that much on the other gifts...and I'd much rather have somebody going around healing people than supernaturally speaking languages they don't know, that would be far more beneficial.
Loved the Biblical discussion, honesty and care in dealing with the charismatic view. Very different to how Daniel Kolenda recently attacked cessasionists, calling it a "doctrine of demons". God bless you Tom and Justin - look forward to buying the book. 🎉😊
Greetings from Philippines to dr.tom and Justin.God bless your ministry both.
Thank you. So careful a conversation that defines terms, and takes very much care in speaking of God's Word. It was a blessing.
God is miraculous and His power can't be measured writing abook which is suggesting miracle's ceased .Even to breath is miracle
Your breathing then is a miracle that God does, not some man on a stage, pulling on your leg.
Thank you for this video. I didn’t fully understand what cessationism is. I believe that God’s word supports this100% Thank you for sharing ❤
Really appreciate this interview, thank you both Dr. Tom and Peters.
Thank You for this.
Justin thank you for this interview, having recently returned to my fathers house after being saved in 1978 in the Vineyard movement which was followed by John Wimber in 1980 taking over leadership I began to question things I was taught and eventually fell away in 1993 and much like the prodigal lived a self serving void existence…..short story..the Holy Spirit convicted me and in the last 18 months and after much repentance and prayer lead me to re-examine the things of God…cessation being on top of the list….you don’t live those early days of Wimber and the Calvary split and not have a grasp on the signs and wonders that has spread over the church with such destruction and blatant false teaching…..I love those friendships from those days that still exist but now find myself being challenged….no matter what I show in scripture….signs and wonders..ie gifts have divided many…..but love never fails…Toms teaching is a blessing but here’s why I posted…..I recently relocated 1,200 miles to be close to my daughter and grand children and now attend their church here. I agree with them on the things that matter but there are some areas I don’t. I felt like God was saying be patient… I was hoping to find a new fellowship that aligned more with my overall scriptural beliefs….heres the kicker….ready…I’m as giddy as a kid in a candy store….Toms church is 6 miles away…..in fact it’s within a mile of where I attend now….i visited the churches web page and Eureka…..If God wants me there He would reveal I know that, but todays blessing,is your channel HE used as the instrument….Tks again and I will see you Sunday Pastor Tom…..James 1:17
Was John Wimber a false teacher? His heart seemed mostly in the right place, and he did rebuke the leaders of the so called Toronto Blessing, but some of the friends he kept raise red flags for me...I know people like Bill Johnson and Heidi Baker are obvious frauds but I don't know, John Wimber seemed sincere.
Great interview thank you
Great conversation!
Great interview...thanks to both you gentlemen.
EXCELLENT interview. Thank you for shearing.❤️❤️❤️
Thank you both for this, some clarification beyond the documentary is appreciated. God bless you both!
Edifying conversation. Thank you brothers!
These types of videos are so very profitable to my faith and practice. Thank you Justin.
Very important to keep on this issue. Thanks!
Good afternoon. Watching replay from West Virginia
Excellent interview gentleman. Thank you
Thanks Justin very helpful. God bless from Ralph and Sheila in Southampton uk
Solar scripture wonderful your videos clarify so much for me thankyou justin god bless you
Well done good sir... very informative and much appreciated
A perusal of both Luther and Calvin with regard to the proto-charismatics of their day (called "enthusiasts" and "fantatics") is a good place to start regarding historic Christianity vs. those who search for "words from God" from places other than Scripture
Excellent interview
God bless you both for your stand for the truth
This is an excellent interview. Thank you for doing this br. Justin. Greetings from India
GOD bless Mr. Peters
Thank you. ❤ 🇦🇺
Excellent discussion gentleman. I so appreciate you both for making the topic so clear. I was particularly interested in the segment regarding church history. It seems a common discussion by some others who have been discipled by Wayne Grudem or Sam Storms that these events of the miraculous continued throughout the post apostolic age. I will certainly buy the book for that chapter alone. I remember listening to the Strange Fire conference and Dr. Pennington’s lecture on this topic and how compelling it was. Thank you both again for a great conversation.
God bless you brother Justin ❤
Mr. Peters, I frequently use what I learn from your videos to interact with the charismatics/word-faithers that I know. Keep on keeping on! Thank you for your ministry!
PS: Please ignore my CZcams name, I made this account when I was 10 years old and have no idea how to change any of it.
This was very informative. Cleared up a lot for me. God is still the same yesterday today and forever. Certainly we can know that the miraculous gift of healing is simply not happening anymore, the way it was in the New Testament. If that were the case then there would be no more cripple or lame or sick anymore bc all Christian’s would’ve been healing everyone all through out time just as we all wish we could. God still answers prayers as he wishes. And the Spirit still is at work.
I really enjoyed this interview. I met with brother Pennington at the Shepherd's Conference in 2018 and thanked him for his address at The Strange Fire Conference, which I thoroughly enjoyed. I am looking forward to getting this book and seeing the documentary on it. SDG!
This video has finally convinced me to reject what I was exposed to for 32 years. Having been brought up in a very conservative Christian family in Northern Ireland I joined a Charismatic Anglican church when I was married. For a whole year I thought what I was witnessing was not God but then I accepted that tongues etc was the work of the Lord. Since 2020, however, I have been leaving it behind. My new church is an independent fundamental evangelical country church. Praise the Lord!
Excellent, praise the Lord.
I think these men did a great job in explaining. Tom's strange fire sermon were he expands the 7 points about cessesstionism are extremely helpful.
Keep serving the Lord and trusting more fully in the Spirit inspired Word of God.
Seems a lot of us coming out of that!
Concerning the cessation of select gifts, great job brothers. On the latter half of interview Concerning salvation, I'd have to push back a little on "with the indwelling spirit...living pagan for 40 years.." the problem with these types soteriological statements is they confuse positional truth with behavioral truth, if someone hears the gospel and believes "pisteuo eise" Acts 16:31 they will be forever saved. I agree that Benny Hinn is a false teacher and might not have ever have believed but behavior over a time period is not a barometer.
Great video
The work has already been done! "IT IS FINISHED"!!! Jesus is enough and God's Word is enough!!! Thank you bro. Justin for your ministry in "rightly dividing the Word of Truth"
Regarding 11:30, Mr Peters says, "none of the epistles mention a thing about how to walk in God's gifts to the church, like healing the sick."
Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: and the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
James5
'And the Lord shall raise him up'...therefore, not a man healing, but God healing. They have reiterated that God still heals, but man does not.
@@betty8173 in every healing it was and is always the Lord raising them up.
This is an insightful and cautionary interview. Christians cannot embrace a lesser view of Scripture, in favor of God speaking directly to them.
@39:50 "What are the implications of this? What are the dangers of the charismatic movement?" - Justin
@42:30 "It undermines the Scripture, unintentionally, in many cases, but nevertheless it does." Tom
@43:16 "What happens, even unintentionally, in good evangelical charismatic churches is the emphasis in and focus on the revealed Word of God is undermined and slowly eaten away until this grows into far more important of a picture than it ought to be." - Tom
Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
- 1 Corinthians 13:8-10
It says in this verse it will cease.
When Christ comes and redeems the church, will perfection have come. Cheers
@robertcain3426 you are asking for a special definition of the perfect... nowhere else in scripture is Jesus referred to in this manner
@@bigtobacco1098
Paul is using analogy - when that which is perfect comes, meaning the restoration of all things, as he writes, all of creation groans with expectation of that day.
@robertcain3426 then, again, we should see a regularity of the gifts from church history... do we ???
I don't know of any commentary that interprets the passage that way... nor does "the perfect" ever refer to creation in the new testament
I see signs, miracles and wonders at my church all the time!!! Mark 16:17 We don’t follow signs! They follow us!!! Praise God!!!🙌🏽🙌🏽🙌🏽🙌🏽
You are praising God for citing scripture out of context?? Interesting
Verify please
Pls refer to Christ great Commission.
@@uvauimani861 means nothing... looking for examples from church history and today...
The decline comes from lack of faith, and when we see so many failures and phonies it hurts all of our faith. God was always the one doing the miracles, but the faith of the men that God used has gone up and down. We are in the middle of a great apostasy. I still try to pray for people that are demon possessed or sick, but I struggle with faith too much and so do those who need deliverance. It’s the word of God and the teaching gifts that hold power still. I just don’t know how profitable it is to talk on and on and make doctrines like this, as it does definitely limit God when we don’t ask.
Excellent 👍, thank you!
Thank you. This definitely helped me understand cessationism. I have a question that I hoped would be addressed. What about people who speak in tongues today? If that is not a gift from God, then how can they do that and what does that mean? I have met many people who speak in tongues and it has always confused me. Thanks again for helping me understand God's Word even better.
I live in Southlake and attend Countryside Bible Church. Pastor Tom is an excellent teacher. I used to go to Gateway and am so glad I now attend a true Bible teaching church!
Hello, can you suggest a similar church like Countryside in Austin? Me and my family are visiting for a week and would love to visit a church that sunday.
@jonesnakka I am not familiar with any, however, you can Google "good bible teaching church" near the city you will be visiting. Then, check out the websites or CZcams channels to review their sermons.
Praying the Holy Spirit guides you to one.
Thank You - Much needed info for today's world. No matter where you turn you run into those that believe in the gifts and try to convince you that they are right. The only thing I wish was discussed was the " trigger Verses that they use" ( ex, by His Stripes we are Healed and a lot more)
Thanks for the discussion! I found Dr. Pennington's book to be very helpful. Like many others, I'm sure, I was duped into Pentecostalism not by any biblical argument, but by the movement's 'distinctives' (tongues, prophecy, exuberant worship, etc.), which were a superficial and dubious evidence of a seemingly more genuine experience of Christianity. It took many years to see past the facade down to the movement's rotten foundations.
Cessationism is false.
@@samuellundin5328deep rebuttal... I'll take any examples of the gifts from church history
No one in my home church, when I was a kid,ever practiced the Gifts of God that ceased.
As someone who has experienced the supernatural healing power of God, I have 2 problems with the cessationist view. Firstly, where and when did the gifts cease? In what year or century did they cease? There is no scripture to support the claim. Jesus did however say "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father". Some may say he was speaking to the apostles only however the passage specifically says "He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also". So that includes me, Justin Peters, John Macarthur, and in fact all believers. I personally believe that as God pours out his spirit in these last days, healings and other miracles performed through Christians will increase. In fact I believe it will occur to such a degree that as with the early church, due to the witness of it, there will be a huge increase in the number of people saved as a result. Secondly, Justin uses examples such as one where a person who has one leg slightly shorter than another (supposedly its quite common) has it stretched out miraculously as someone prays over them while holding the persons feet in his hands. He speeds up the video which he claims to show the person praying is manipulating one of the persons feet in particular so the toe is pointing up more at the end creating the illusion of the leg length then matching the other leg. It certainly does look that way too in the video, and I have no doubt there are people that can create this illusion. However, I too suffer from this condition, and back in 1986 I had a well known minister from the US visit my church in Australia, and he had me sit down with my feet rested on a chair. As he prayed with his hands hardly touching my legs, my leg began to move and stretch out. I could feel the bones and joints moving on their own as if someone was pulling on it, though the movement occured like it was being manipulated from within my leg. So I know the gifts haven't ceased. Nothing anyone can say will ever convince me that what I experienced was nothing short of supernatural. I suspect in Justin Peters case, he may have a problem with the gifts since he suffers from cerebral palsy of which he has not been cured. He may feel some inadequacy in not being healed as a minister and so to be able to put that down to cessation of the gifts excuses him from finger pointing and people thereby doubting his ministry. I don't know. That's between him and God. But I can testify to the fact that God exercises his healing power through prayer with the laying on of hands. If he did it in 1986 then he does it now. "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Do not be carried about with various and strange doctrines" (Hebrews 13:8-16)
Mat 24:24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
Justin, you are 100% right that most Pentecostal/Charismatic churches will sincerely say they are not in the w-o-f prosperity gospel, yet they actually teach it in many ways. Having been in the movement for 60 years and left two years ago, I can attest that is absolutely the case.
Miracles is being. Born again
This topic is difficult because everyone wants to be more spiritual. Leadership is needed to point from the word what true spirituality is, and to also stress it is nothing to take pride in.
Charismatics choose the wrong leadership. In fact, I would argue they don't understand what leadership actually is. Elders were to be chosen, as Paul's intruction to manage the church, not charismatic circus ring leaders. A padtor is not a CEO chairing a board meeting as is the example of the church we see today. Everybody in church should sit down and wait on the Lord, taking turns to bring to the fellowship their gift to add to the building up of the meeting in the knowledge of Christ. If teaching, then let them teach. If exhorting, then let that one exhort etc. Taking turns to bring forward their gift for the edification of the whole body. Cheers
J.E.S.U.S., He's my Lord and King
J.E.S.U.S., He's my everything
J.E.S.U.S., He's my Lord and King
J.E.S.U.S., my everything
Life was a disaster
Until I met You
I just wanna thank You
For all You've brought me through
This new direction
Has really helped me see
All You've ever wanted
Was the very best for me
Amen and amen.
Frankly, Dr. Pennington's response to the Lord's Supper objection left a LOT to be desired.
"How many times does God have to command something..."
*Ignores the commands of 1 Corinthians 14 and 1 Thessalonians 5"
The Lord's Supper fades away in the exact same way as the gifts apparently do; even after the exact same book! Why then do we obey the commands of 1 Corinthians 11 if we can ignore the commands of 1 Corinthians 14? I would love to hear a cessationist's clear and direct response to that.
Great video. Thank you! I sent it to my mom so she could better understand and hopefully get through to my dad who’s stuck in the NAR movement. I also watched the trailer to the Cessationist movie and then a video popped up afterwards of Isaiah Saldivar trying to disprove Cessationists, saying that it’s a false doctrine and it’s nowhere in the Bible. 🤦🏼♀️ It would be awesome if you could do a video about his video.
The gifts will pass away “when the perfect comes.” This has not come yet. We need to be biblical, and not simply react to the other extreme of charismatic chaos.
Well said. Cheers
There is a lot more nuance to that passage than you have studied apparently.
But I can tell you this, its not that simple
Zero exegesis
It’s sad when you have to try to convince people that the Bible says what it says.
Funny how they didn’t even include that passage in the cessationism documentary. The doco was all about the gifts ceasing.
That’s the only verse in the Bible that talks about when the gifts will cease.
Doesn’t fit their narrative though, so they left it out!
So dishonest.
@lovegod8582 "says what it says" just means "agrees with my interpretation"....
Amen!
I used to be Continualist myself, believed I could have a full on conversation with God. Until God Himself Directly Chastised me for Idolizing my own thoughts! as Comforting as it is, eventually, to be Chastised by God, for He only Chastises His adopted Children, it scared the life out of me at the time, brought me slamming to my knees in Repentance, and made me a Cessationist within that very Instant! I only wish I had listened to you and Pastor Tom and other Cessationists a lot Sooner. Now a Traditional Cessationist, and Zero Tolerance on the Lie of Continualism that lead me Astray into Idolatry afore God Himself intervened to Chastise me!
Um Simeon
Why are you playing grand theft auto and telling me to repent?
I looked at your channel
No wonder you can't fill pews.
You got some problem there kid.
I'm available to argue with you now about anything in this public space for everyone to see.
I got all the time in the world.
Hope to hear from you soon Simeon
Oddly enough there are councilors out there specifically for your type of religious fervor.
On the topic of Oneness Pentecostals, not only do they deny the biblical Jesus, but they also deny the biblical gospel, adding works to salvation. In my experience, it's sadly quite common for Charismatics to affirm Oneness Pentecostals as brothers because they claim Jesus and they (supposedly) manifest the Holy Spirit.
Affirming someone as a brother when they are so clearly in error that is anathema is not loving.
People want a verse that says “the gifts have stopped at this point and time.” You aren’t gonna get that. You have to look at the narrative and history of Scripture. The Bible is the tale of the transition from Judaism to Christianity, the prophesy of, coming of, and life of the Messiah, the transition period - the forming of the early church by the directly appointed and gifted Apostles, and then the New Testament church going forward after the formation of the early church and ministry of the Apostles.
Just because God is the same God “yesterday, today, and forever” doesn’t mean that His will and actions are always the same.
God's will is always the same
How it works out is subject to MANY factors
When I was 10 and 11 I was chosen and 1st really found Holy Spirit when confess to a children pastor who taught me repentance and conviction release my sin's and began to cry of Joy and felt the warmth glorious hug and recognize what the Holy Spirit way before I really knew what Jesus was when I was married with children's and found a great church lead me to Jesus then it was a epiphany what Trinity was.
Father Son and Holy Spirit 🙏😇
Amen 🙌
The Great Battle of the Ages is
Truth verses Experience
God has put Himself in a Book.. not unlike a Box.. Infinite must reveal itself to the finite.. and He chose the very best way
Hi Mr Peters
I hope that this message reaches you :) . I live in southern Denmark, close to the German border and I have been searching high and low for a sound doctrine church in Denmark and even south of the border in (Northern) Germany, but so far without luck.......... :(
I know that you have visited some of the Skandinavian countryes and I hope that you have some Contacts that can help me on my way
Stiig Elgaard
A brother in Christ
Pray, God will direct you.
Perhaps you can start one with some other believers
Interesting discussion.
Some thoughts:
Paul was always weak and sick, even though he had special Apostolic gifts.
Even during the time of Corinthians there was no automatic healing in all cases (and God did let Paul know: "my grace is sufficient", and Paul then rather boasts in his weaknesses).
We need to differentiate Apostolic signs from general gifts for everyone.
1 Corinthians 12-14 teaches us how to do church as well ! Very much so. Not just the "pastoral epistles".
We must reject the truly demonic charismatics who preach a false gospel. But we need to seek God's gifts and Spirit.
The end goal is love, truth and the building up of the body of Christ, as Paul already made clear in 1 Corinthians 12-14.
🙏🏻💚
Demonic charismatics ??? Be careful what you say. You may be blaspheming the Holy Spirit.
@@irenebagg1719 , absolutely not. People like Benny Hinn, Osteen and Joyce Meyers are preaching doctrines of demons. Those are the charismatics and prosperity gospel wolves I'm referring to.
@@irenebagg1719that is not blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. You probably should watch your mouth instead of slandering Christians.
Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is a final rejection of The Gospel.
Muh blasphemy.. touch not... 😮
@Scribeintheink read what I said. If a person judges speaking in tongues attributes that to demons speaking it is blaspheming the Holy Spirit. I certainly did NOT slander anyone.
Thank you Justin for your bravery to stand for the truth.
I sometimes think that's its a pity I'm a woman and in the UK. Your conferences must be amazing.plus I'm disabled
You were made that way for a reason. Find what God would have you do right where you are. God bless.