Best nose down techniques - tech disc tests
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- čas přidán 11. 06. 2024
- 00:00 - Intro
00:29 - Inverted swoop description & example
00:40 - More explanation on the tests
01:31 - Test: turn the key
01:48 - Stats: turn the key
01:52 - Test: pour the tea
02:17 - Stats: pour the tea
02:22 - Inverted swoop context
03:54 - Test: inverted swoop
04:01 - Stats: inverted swoop
04:06 - Stats: compared averages
04:12 - Conclusion starts
05:11 - Pour the tea is overrated?
05:57 - Suspicions about pour the tea
06:43 - Showing pour the tea isn't towards the nose
08:12 - People who get lots of nose down with pour the tea are doing extra?
08:31 - Turn the key improves grip?
09:19 - Extra thoughts: turn the key combined with wrist curl
Perhaps if I tried to dynamically pour the tea at the last moment instead of maintaining the wrist position, it would work better. However, if that worked better, I think it would be less because of the wrist movement and more because trying to do it dynamically and aggressively would increase the chance that you do something extra with the arm that helps bring the nose down
Ezra Aderhold’s ‘inverted swoop’ video: • 2 Tips For A Better No... - Sport
Thanks for the cool testing! Pete Ulibarri did a super interesting video that I think applies to the “inverted swoop” where he said that pushing up on the disc moves the nose down!
Data is hard to argue with when gathered consistently. Well done, sir. Thank you!
Pouring the tea totally screws up the wrist hinge so it can't swing efficiently. Scott Stokely said years ago, if you've tried everything and still throw nose up, supinate your forearm until you throw directly into the ground, then slowly back off until you throw level trajectory with nose flat to slightly negative.
Inverted swoop depends very heavily on back to thigh angle at pelvis with no off axis flexion, thigh to calf angle at knee being constant and being up on balls of feet, all while maintaining balance fore and aft as well as side to side before, during and after, stopping all of your forward momentum with your right foot; then rotating about a somewhat inclined axis that's supposed to remain stable and behind your right foot during your pull through as your back untwists following you hips. Right. Ezra does it perfectly and so do many pros. I'm not a pro and I've never been able to make this mass of springs and hinges reliable regarding nose angle. I'm throwing over 400 but getting 350 at best because I'm throwing snow plows instead of airplanes.
Briefcase back-swing and keeping my elbow above the disc as long as possible, ending with an involuntary "turning the key," seems like too much to get right in too small a segment of time, so I didn't try it for years. I was wrong about what was difficult. For me, concentrating on that one instant of wrist position perfection is vastly more easy and simple than getting all those levers and springs necessary for the inverted swoop to end up with a correctly tilted and stable spinal axis. Throwing nose flat some of the time for the fist time ever.
One can also try putting the disc on line and keeping it there from start to finish like Antila and McMahon do, which feels pretty stiff and unathletic. It does keep the disc away from your body which is good for maybe 50 feet extra distance. Sometimes the briefcase swings out away from my body and the disc flies quite far. Hard to learn some things. My biggest insight is that to be engaged, I need to throw with all of my creative ability every time, not trying to repeat anything because that's not alive, but creating a new and brilliant throw each time with all of my being focused on that one task. Duh.
Interesting, thanks for the share. The first time I tried briefcase carry it totally messed me up and confused all my throwing mechanics, but I was also working on a lot of other stuff at the time. When I tried it again later it surprisingly didn’t seem as complicated and worked pretty quickly. Especially when having the reassurance of the tech disc data, it made it easier to just go for it after I saw some promising results.
I recently came across the same type of thing with putting. I use more internal rotation and pronation in the backswing now (bringing the disc down low as well) and externally rotate and supinate during the arm lift while putting. I didn’t initially like the idea of that because I wanted to keep everything lined up instead of shifting dynamically. But it feels easier to flow with all of it turning into a fluid movement and working together. I do still switch to a simpler spin put that’s more linear and on line sometimes though as a mix up or for tougher angles.
You’d probably like this forum if you don’t already know about it. www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/technique-strategy.52/
@@disc-golf-neil Thanks, Neil for your reply and the forum link. There is definitely something about thinking of the swing as fluid as opposed to a bunch of parts stuck together. Getting off arm into the backhand has got to be the weirdest update yet because it so totally hoses all timing, but the effect when timing is correct is like magnum v regular bullets, in terms of velocity.
DG Spin Doctor (former pro I think) somehow managed to never learn about back-loading his grip for more control until just a month ago, but he mentioned that doing so very much reduced nose-up, which kind of fits with Pete Ulibari's claim about precession rotating that upward input 90 degrees in direction of rotation, as that puts the back of the disc up
at the last instant. Whereas, squeezing tight in the thumb/index finger area kind of has the opposite, downward input, yielding nose up after precession. I can't say I see or feel this yet, but Pete's pretty sharp on the mechanics and back-loading is the closest yet I've come to nose down.
@@bretbowman2007 I’ll have to test more backloading but it’s kind of hard, it feels like I full load but with added focus on pinching at the front too so for me to backload I basically just have to do everything the same but loosen the front only.
For off arm timing, that’s why I really like the Jakub semerad preset close off arm. No timing needs to be thought about and it seems to have most of the benefits of a well timed close off arm. I did a tech disc test vid on that and it improved my speed. I plan to practice it more and hope it automatically develops close off arm muscle memory so I can eventually stop doing it and have intuitive timing.
@@disc-golf-neil Far out! I will check into Semerad (think I already did a few months ago, tennis court sort of location?). I just see so many pros with a pronounced downward plunge and when I get that right most everything else kind of finds its purpose around it, but I definitely get what you're saying. I'm tall, slender and very flexible, so an obvious timing anchor may be more essential for me. That sudden rotating whip sensation is hard to miss.
So, your right foot hitting to brace is your timing trigger? Curious, does Semerad mode increase distance of disc from your chest at release, i.e. longer lever moving faster at its apogee?
Back-loading gets very quickly comfortable and accurate with practice and it does feel strange. Can't see it working well without significant cocking of wrist, though.
Intuitive timing...yes please. Thanks!
@@bretbowman2007 I did a vid of the presets close off arm and got a little bit more speed on average, but I don’t know why. My best guess is just that my off arm comes in a little late in normal form.
Yeah, for me, I don’t start anything until I feel the brace touch then as soon as I do it’s go time. That’s why I kinda can’t relate to people throwing early before their brace lands because I’ve always waited for it as a cue before proceeding.
However, in frame by frame slow motion it looks like most pros start, bringing in their off arm, just a little bit before the brace lands, so that’s why my off arm is a little slow probably, it waits for the brace too before coming in.
Great content. Thanks for sharing.
Great topic, great video!
I guess the inverted swoop is just another way to supinate the forearm.
Looking forward to see some testing of the wrist curl variations!
I think the inverted swoop works differently, instead of supinating it uses a larger arm motion to change the swing path from a diagonal one to curving down at the end which brings the nose down.
Thanks for the research!
Good coverage of the topic. As someone fighting the nose up swoop I agree with your conclusions. Maybe its an issue of different body types but "pouring the tea" either doesn't give me nose down or at most gets -1deg. now down max.
What you call "turn the key" has proven to be beneficial for me so far. Though for me you not only turn the key but you also need to keep that wrist curled inward through the hit point. If you turn key and unfurl your wrist to be straight or open at the wrong time, in a split second nose down can become nose up. So wrist position and hitting that 10-11 release point seems to be critical to the success of this technique. (which isn't easy) This video validates my own recent findings so thanks for sharing.
Interesting about the wrist curl. I have noticed sometimes turn the key really feels like the disc hangs on my fingers for a moment longer, improving grip and speed (and prob spin). I suspect it is related to when my wrist has some curl still at the wright time, uncurling it while also turning the key really digs the fingers around the rim more with the forces being applied.
Thanks. Subscribed.
Have you played with the TechDisc simulator on nose angle?
Put in your speed, spin, etc and find the elevation, stability, hyzer, etc solution that gives you the most distance.
Now change your nose angle and see how much nose angle affects your max distance.
My conclusion: It doesn't unless you've got a really bad positive nose angle, and even then, it's not significant for low, golf lines.
Yeah I’ve found the same. As long as the nose angle isn’t too much above 0, there is a combination of other angles that can optimize to the nose angle to get the same max distance.
However, if you need to hit a low tunnel shot then probably nose neutral is better than nose down so it flies longer with a lower launch angle, or going over trees more nose down will be better to penetrate further before stalling.
Nick Krush says for penetrating hyzers extreme nose down gets him +100 feet compared to closer to nose neutral so in some cases it might be more useful but idk if in this case it’s just from more turn from more nose down.
@@disc-golf-neil Yeah, I agree. At my level, I just want to be consistent because "random" nose angle is probably the worse "random" feature to have. For me, the wider the rim (higher speed), the more inconsistent my nose angle.
@@sabrewolf479 that’s partly why I got the highest speed driver TechDisc model because I figured practicing with the one that’s harder to grip would make everything else easier.
Thank you very much for this video, I am working on those down currently and seeing somebody actually try out the three techniques and compare them is very helpful to me I'm going to experiment as well and see what I can come up with although currently no matter what I do I'm always between 3 and 5° nose ip
So far everyone I know who has fixed a nose up issue has traced it back to accidentally pronating the wrist a little bit and / or swooping the arm, or less often it’s grip alignment where the disc starts more in between the index and thumb instead of between middle and index fingers.
Turn the key may still help but even if it does I would prioritize making sure you aren’t pronating (practicing locking the wrist) and not swooping by throwing slower and checking the film from multiple angles to verify.
Good luck!
I think we need to look at cues being more individualistic in nature, per each person's swing, rather than a cure for a result like "nose down" - though obviously there is correlation. I think a cue can be used to overcorrect, and then cause other issues, without solving the intended problem.
For example: I think people should pour the coffee/tea only to a certain extent, and no further. If someone already has the disc in the right position, any further "pouring" will cause a detrimental effect.
Good points, I think because pour the tea is such a small wrist movement when people try to do it harder, they may be are doing something with their arm, forcing the nose down like an inverted swoop.
I agree that different people will do different things using the same cue. But it also depends on the cue. The simpler and more specific and easy it is to do the more likely people will converge when trying it. And I think in many cases, part of the problem is a cue being too vague / bad and contributing to more variance in addition to personal variance. And then, many people when told to do a very specific body movement, will simply do it wrong without practice or add too much. Some body movements are often done in conjunction with, and are hard to do separately.
@@disc-golf-neil great points - and great video, too! 😁
Might have been a good idea to have thrown a set using no nose down techniques as a baseline.
I did that in the next vid
Pretty interesting results. Have any good links to apply turning the key?
I haven’t seen any other than the overthrow vid titled something like ‘the best nose down cue’.
I’d recommend doing it a bunch of times very slowly, don’t even worry about actually throwing the disc just get the feeling of flipping it with wrist supination and making sure to not externally rotate the shoulder too much at the same time.
It helps me to hold the disc with pronation and bring it into the power pocket initially that way, then as you are swinging the disc out of the power pocket away from the chest that’s when I think about trying to supinate the wrist.
Just watched the short! This is great thanks! Do you coach on the side?
Not yet. Been thinking about getting into a little bit of it but I’m still learning a lot myself (started 7 months ago) so I want to make sure I have a fuller understanding first.
@@disc-golf-neil are you close to northern Indiana? I can be a test student haha
@@hiking7521 hah, no. Austin Texas.
@disc-golf-neil just a thought if you want to try to do some lessons through google meet or however to see how it goes...or if you are wanting to do in person only? Can chat the small details privately...Just a thought. The science behind your videos is fantastic
@@hiking7521 email me with some more details on what you’re looking for from a live online video lesson and we can chat further about it: disc.golf.neil@gmail.com
Something to consider. I get more nose down angles when I throw stand still versus x step. Maybe 2 degrees more on average. Have you tested these cues in xstep as well?
I have but I haven’t organized the data as much but I get similar results. The main difference is that as I approach my max speed the timing of the dynamic interventions (turn the key has to be timed whereas if you hold pour the tea you don’t have to time it) is harder but I’m getting more consistent at turn the key since it’s my main technique now.
With turn the key I’ve gotten up to -6.2 nose at 13 launch within 1 mph of my max of 68 using a full run up x step ‘crow hop’ (both feet come off ground during x like mcbeth).
So maybe it’s something about your x form, perhaps you lean back when you x step or your brace becomes compromised in some way.
@disc-golf-neil have you tried turn the key and reverse swoop at the same time? When I do I get -10ish, it's insane. Almost like a reverse air bounce haha
@@Winton-fam I did but I was tired and it didn’t stack at the time.
I got almost -10 doing wrist pronation + wrist extension during backswing and then wrist flexion into power pocket into turn the key.
The wrist flexion (curl) felt like it helped secure my grip more and it made my turn the key accidentally stronger and I also accidentally threw harder when doing it with same effort.
Gonna try it more.
Inverted swoop feels harder to be accurate with launch angle since you have to overshoot the launch angle initially so you can chop it down and still have enough left over and sometimes it feels like it’s messing with my hyzer control but my data in this vid didn’t really reflect that this time but other times it did. I may not be doing it with good enough form tho but I got some upper back / neck soreness from it so I prefer turn the key and can get more than enough nose down with it.
But I’ll try inverted swoop more later, I might learn a better way to do it and like it more.
This pic of stats is interesting: www.reddit.com/r/discgolf/comments/1914rcf/top_15_power_throwers_world_rankings_w_techdisc/?
Garrett is known on dgcoursereview site by form analysis people as a big key turner and his nose angle here is way lower, also unusually high spin, together it helps him stay competitive distance wise with a lower arm speed.
Would love to see a test with a backloaded grip; see Dg spin doctor's 300+ glitch video for details. It's done wonders for my throw an putt.
Yeah, I saw that too. I'll try a backloaded grip. There's so much I want to test!
Got my disc in yesterday. I CANNOT get the nose down. Seems like I compensated by having a negative launch angle. I'm getting numbers like 62mph->1200rpm->10degrees nose
Feels like I tried everything. Everything in my form is great until the moment the disc comes out of my hand, then it pops nose up. I've only successfully gotten close with the turn the key method but the timing has to be just right or we end up 15degrees nose up lol
You might be swooping with your arm and / or pronating (opposite turn key)
Fixing one might not be enough to get nose down because the other is cancelling out your efforts.
I’d try throwing slower so you can practice more control and if you reach back high try a low reach back and pulling through on plane first to get a neutral nose before going for nose down.
The reason I can get nose down with turn the key and inverted swoop is because I can already get nose neutral with a simple pour the tea and a decently on plane reach back + pull through without doing anything else big unintentionally like swooping or pronating.
Try a backloaded grip 😉
@@disc-golf-neil thinking it may be a swoop at the end of the throw or not transfering weight properly. Tried using a bonapane grip and somehow that still puts it nose up
@@disc-golf-neil alright so after trying literally everything, I started taking fingers off of the rim to see what the problem was. Isolated the swooping, isolated the swing plane...
The way I got the disc nose down: TAKING MY THUMB OFF OF THE FLIGHT PLATE. Seems like I'm applying too much pressure at the wrong time maybe? Can you throw a couple and confirm for me how this isn't ridiculous?
@@hoodrich4375
I’ve speculated about this before, can’t test it for a little bit.
If the thumb is deeper into the flight plate, there are no fingers underneath it to support the thumb pressure so the thumb pressure is creating pressure in the direction of wrist pronation and your wrist has to now withstand that pressure to avoid pronating, but it’s uncomfortable for your wrist, so there’s big temptation to pronate to relieve the pressure. And pronation causes a lot of nose up.
So moving the thumb, so it’s closer to the index finger means the thumb pressure can be supported by the index finger instead of pushing the wrist towards pronation.
This is going to hurt some brains...but it will change your game...
The angle of the disc changes in the direction of the force 90 degrees in the direction of the spin. That is physics.
To make the nose up, push down with the thumb. 90 degrees away is the back of the disc. Push down on the TOP, the back goes down, the front goes up.
To make the nose go down at release, you push UP under the disc. 90 degrees after is the back of the disc. It goes up, front goes down.
You dont need the tech disc. Anyone can see this work with a putt.
Push down at release and the nose goes up.
Push up at release on the bottom and the nose goes down.
This 90 degrees-later rule applies to skips and roll aways.
There are no Frisbee gods playing with you. It is all controlable, predictable.
PDGA #308.
have you tried front load vs back loaded, spin dr, did one and it was groundbreaking for him.. i noticed when you poured teh coffee/tea your arm was quite flexed, which is the opposite of loose, id be curious to see how that works out for you.
I plan to try more stuff with spin. However you can back load and be tensed still so there’s lots of options. Relaxed and front or back loaded, tense and front or back loaded, 2,3,4 fingers, more or less wrist curl, etc.
I might have missed it, but when exactly are you turning the key?
@@ubrant6747
At 1:31 I'm mimicking in slow motion what I am trying to do in the faster throw. Ideally, I think, you are still supinating as you come out of the power pocket but a lot of pros you can see in slow motion (use < and > keys on PC to go frame by frame on YT) start supinating during the power pocket before coming out of it because at faster speeds it's harder to wait for the last second so you start it sooner.
At 1:37 in this vid you can see the disc rotating, you can see the bottom then suddenly you cannot.
The 2nd pic shows it (right to left sequence): www.dgcoursereview.com/threads/repository-of-cool-images.140711/post-3490753
you do this as you are pulling through.. like when its coming out of the. pocket.
@@ubrant6747