TWiV 1101: It's not over 'til it's Offit
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- čas přidán 29. 03. 2024
- Paul Offit joins TWiV to discuss his latest book, "Tell Me When It's Over", an insider’s guide to deciphering COVID myths and navigating our post-pandemic world.
Show notes at www.microbe.tv/twiv/twiv-1101/
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----------------------- - Věda a technologie
_CZcams timestamps by Les_
00:00 start
02:13 *Announcements*
02:15 Please contribute to science education
02:30 ASV 2024 Webinar on navigating immigration system
workshop classifying viral subspecies
04:07 options for control of influenza (Brisbane)
Immune podcast coming from there
04:50 Viral Subspecies Classification workshop
04:54 asking for Salk/Sabin info
06:33 [see TWiV 281: The Salk legacy with Peter L. Salk]
czcams.com/video/-0uEgOmpPxM/video.html
[see TWiV 373: The distinguished virology career of Julius S. Youngner]
czcams.com/video/ry02ZVukez0/video.html
08:58 Tell Me When It's Over
AN INSIDER'S GUIDE TO DECIPHERING COVID MYTHS AND NAVIGATING OUR POST-PANDEMIC WORLD
By Paul A. Offit MD
09:25 Why we needed another book on CoViD
12:14 What suprized you
*Book Chapter topics*
15:13 Lab leak hypothesis
21:24 Hydroxycloroquine, etc
27:50 "breakthrough infections"
30:29 What the vaccine message should have been
34:12 Malone
36:05 Anti-Vaccine movement
46:35 The Disinformation Dozen
50:35 Boosters
. . . .
1:18:50 *Letters*
Clarissa
Bob
Steve
John
Darach
Peter
see www.microbe.tv/twiv/twiv-1101-letters/
1:33:21 *Weekly Picks*
Dickson - Astronomers Unveil Strong Magnetic Fields Spiraling at the Edge of Milky Way’s Central Black Hole
Brianne - Inside the AI Competition That Decoded an Ancient Herculaneum Scroll
Vincent - biotech.symposium on Instagram
1:49:09 please contribute
_Audio podcast timestamps by Jolene. Thanks._
the libertarian left? im tryna learn about virology . the shit that gets u fucked up.
Would have loved a discussion of vaccine vs infection acquired immunity.
@@margotbw4660 there have been many by world class immunologists on TWIV . Want numbers ?
What makes me question this though why any body in their mind even consider acquiring immunity via infection ? I can not think about anything more ridiculous
wonderful to see, thank you for continuing to discuss this! 🎉Suggestion- have you considered having a psychologist as a guest who has been researching vaccination and pandemic behaviors? there is a whole discipline that tries to answer the questions you were all pondering about why individuals believe & do what they do.. health messaging etc. sociologist could also contribute re societal wide behaviors etc. Thanks
Science magazine had a news story that interviewed experts about the psychology of vaccine refusal. They said pretty much what Offit said. For most "hesitant" patients, doctors can explain it, answer their questions, and (eventually) convince them. For a hard core, it's impossible.
If we had an outbreak of, say, smallpox again, which had a 30% mortality rate in a naive population, we might have to choose between mandating vaccination and up to 100 million American deaths. With COVID-19, we had 1.1 million deaths, which is more than the American deaths in WWII. Any country that can't mobilize and cooperate in an emergency to save 1.1 million lives is a failure.
I miss pandemic lazy Sundays watching TWIV .. But today I've gotten a post pandemic lazy Sunday watching TWIV and I love this episode.
A lab leak would not necessarily require creation of the virus. Field samples are another concern.
Still zero evidence for lab leak though + one has to ignore a ton of evidence for zoonotic spread of lineage B on western Side of Huanan market
The leak of a new pathogenic virus is a much greater concern than the leak of field samples. Field samples are already out in the wild. One patient could create and expose others to more virus than would ever be created in a lab.
The global flu strain in 1977 was a 1918 flu remnant leaked from a Siberian lab, according to Osterholm's book. Please comment on this. If true, a lab leak can easily result in a global pandemic.
I have Paul’s book on hold at my local library and I can’t wait to read it! I’m so relieved that virologists like Brianne will be here continuing your work long after the rest of you are gone!
Looking forward to reading the book! Thanks TWiV gang + Paul.
I hope his book gets on Audible
Can't wait to read Dr. Paul's book. Informative TWIV as usual. ❤
The statement "we got somethings wrong, no one got everything right." Is true enough, however it comes across as disingenuous and maybe even pandering when you continue refuse to acknowledge people that got things right.
Confirmation bias is a powerful thing. I will read the book.
Example of the people who got things right and the example of the right things?
Can you explain why no body has been able to malign covid vaccines without lying about them ?
Can you explain why did people lie about Ivermectin that it works in Covid and made millions fooling people who love being fooled ?
Can you explain why people still ignore wealth of data clearly showing virus is natural and go with lab leak when there is zero evidence for it?
Let’s see for once a conspiracy theorist can think clearly , never met one who could . Also it’s so easy to prove
As Holden Thorp, the editor of Science magazine, keeps repeating in his editorials, articles in scientific publications do not claim to "get everything right." They only claim to follow scientific procedures and get as close to the truth as is humanly possible in the real world, and to correct mistakes. The anti-vaxxers and anti-science people are continually creating a straw man (and misquoting) scientists saying, "We know the truth, everybody else is wrong."
I don't know what to think about Covid origin and at one level it doesn't matter to me. But I want to know why I should believe you and Paul over Richard Ebright for instance, a virologist who is convinced that it came out of a lab.
1: Why are you talking about “ belief “ this is not about faith , it’s science and facts .
2: Also why are you talking about personalities ? Why not start thinking for yourself and start looking at data .
Fact is there is zero data and evidence for lab leak and an overwhelming amount of data for zoonotic spread on the western side of Huanan market for lineage B spread .
Ebright it one of very few cranks on one side, these guys - true experts - are on side with thousands of scientists who can point to actual evidence, understand it, and explain it to laypersons like us
@@mixloadit would help a lot if the TWIV team constructed an argument about why the lab leak is not possible. Instead they converse about how dumb people are who believe a leak is a possible theory (e.g. can’t handle complexity of natural origin) and make no argument of their own. No one should trust an expert who doesn’t have arguments or facts to present.
@@labastar see episodes 664, 774 , 995, 1017 for starters. they and other people have made the arguments over and over. you're right in your last point. they make solid arguments, lab leakers do not.
@@labastar see episodes 762, 774, 940 and 1017 for starters. it's been explained many times here and elsewhere. I would agree with your last point, but it's the lab leakers who present no facts and no argument.
I read the book. I am a layman, and it was well worth it.
As usual, excellent episode. Thx you
As a retired Canadian oncologist, instructor in med school, (frustrated physicist), I have been railing against medical misinformation for fifty years. I have been arguing with Dr. Campbell for three years, since Covid and retirement gave me the time. I have been encouraging friends and anyone who will listen as well.
There are groups of medical disinformationists! Vaccine hesitancy kills.
Are there groups of health care people opposing disinformation at a popular level, made up of people like Dr. Offit?
I think I need the therapy and I think we need to do something about all this nonsense...and I like Dr. Offit's approach (better than mine).
Got thé Book. Of course❤
Wonderful episode!!!!
I thought it was supposed to be episode One-Thousand One-Hundred and One, I was also kind of hoping for One One Zero One. Seriously though I really enjoy Dr. Offit's appearances on MicrobeTV I think he makes a great addition to the program line up and this discussion only adds to that.
Found the book at my library; just placed a hold on it.
Thank you
I respect all of you! You have not addressed the mRNA vaccines and igG4. That’s a concern for me. Any opinions on the research showing an increase in igG4 from the mRNA vaccines?
Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche, and Dr. Philip McMilian have been discussing the IgG4 antibodies, refocusing, and what they mean to the health of people who are fully 'vaccinated'. It's not good news. Find interviews on CZcams.
Dr DePalmier, i am also a great fan of “DanielandJorge explain the Universe” podcast so thanks for the link. R/ and best Momica
26:29 For me, right up there with the series of studies into ALL in children at St. Jude's
Paul Offit is wonderful!
The Salk Sabin write up will be interesting!
Perfect title!
I appreciate this healthy dose (pun) of sanity. Looking forward to reading the book.
Thank you for your courage to tell this story. Almost everything I hear is from the conspiracy world. You are being shouted down and I understand reticence to speak out but public education is important. We also need to hear about newer studies ( such as IgG4 findings, long COVID and cardiovascular issues).
I love that Offit knows that there is no heaven.
Can he show us the negative proof??
Why don’t you invite Dr Birx onto your show?
Without arguing for or against a lab leak it is interesting to note that in all of these discussions about the possibility of a lab leak no one ever mentions the fact the closure of USAMRIDs BL3 and BL4 labs in 2019. 6 violations including 2 breaches if containment were were identified ( from Wikipedia article) . Why is this fact never mentioned in discussions about the whuhon (sp?) Lab ? It is my understanding that the standards are this Chinese lab were not as good as those at American labs and that at least one Chinese scientist who worked there was quite concerned about safety . What about the facility at plumb island ? Weren't there issues there ? How was safety there when there was a strike of contractors ? I'm not totally convinced there was no lab leak of sars cov2 but I think the probability is low . If there had been a leak , the Chinese would have moved mountains to cover it up . I do not believe the probability of this having occurred is 0 . Once the virus is out though , it doesn't really matter does it ?
Hint: the biosafety level in nature and the wild animal markets where animals were butchered and their blood all around was 0.
After reading several books and around 50 journal articles I cannot say definitely whether the virus came from a lab leak but think it’s a distinct possibility. I’m a retired pathologist and directed a large multi hospital laboratory including a microbiology department with virology section. I don’t understand why these virologists are so definite that this couldn’t happen. I’ve lost much respect for them. If a serious epidemic with a more virulent virus appears much of the public will sadly disregard their future advice. They’ve damaged their credibility beyond recovery due to their hubris.
@badspecimen thank you for this comment.
Careful with koalas. They are riddled with chlamydia
43:52 None are so blind as those who refuse to see.
I seem to have missed the part where Offit discussed the possible implications of the elevated IgG4 antibody levels upon m-RNA COVID vaccinations at the second dose and beyond. Oh, it's not there.
I also want to know about extremely high and persistent IgG4 antibodies against mRNA spike protein after 3rd and 4th vaccination.
IgG4 is still sterilising against SARS-CoV-2, but they are not inflammatory. They can also swap FAB arms, thus can bind to two different pathogens. What cannot be established is whether these antibodies are binding solely to the spike or whether they’re binding to spike and a different protein. Bee keepers have higher levels of IgG4 against bee venom, if they’re stung then they will be protected but without an inflammatory response.
@@MRCAGR1 IgG4 related diseases cause many autonomic disruptions relatable to long covid symptoms. How certain these IgG4 are not inflammatory?
@@towsifhossain2010 “We highlight how, depending on the setting, IgG4 responses can be beneficial (for example, in responses to allergens or parasites) or detrimental (for example, in autoimmune diseases, in antitumour responses and in anti-biologic responses). “
“IgG4 has a unique set of properties compared with the other IgG subclasses that has led to IgG4 being widely regarded as an anti-inflammatory, ‘benign’ antibody that may have beneficial functions in allergic disease”
From The unique properties of IgG4 and its roles in health and disease, (2023).
Also
“Among human antibodies, IgG4 uniquely undergoes a process in vivo, termed Fab-arm exchange (FAE), in which bi-specific, functionally monovalent antibodies are created (2). This contributes to the anti-inflammatory properties of IgG4 and limits its ability to form immune complexes and activate complement (2-4). Furthermore, IgG4 is an attrac- tive format for therapeutic monoclonal antibodies when effector function is undesired (5-7).” From Human IgG4: a structural perspective, which is open access.
@@towsifhossain2010the proof is in the pudding . The vaccines in multiple studies are proven to be protective against long covid . They are being used to treat long covid as well
20:22 Was not hydroxychloroquine at one time the favoured drug of the Hemlock Society? I was shocked when that (FDA) happened.
Did liposomes with mRNA transfect only miocyte at injected site ?
Must decrease blood spread ?
25:25 I have the book...excellent.
Immune modulatory effects of some antiparasitic drugs can explain some effects.
May be after SARS COV2 infection cross reacting antibody occur,and some react like cryoglobuline?
Gonzo spat his teeth out a trumpet too..
32:00 Harvard, I have learned over several years, has a lot of atoning to do.
I was/am most concerned about healthcare personnel who don’t get vaccinated and or tell others to not get vaccinated. I think they shouldn’t be in healthcare
Right. That's like a waiter saying he doesn't want to wash his hands after using the toilet. Unfortunately, several states have passed laws prohibiting "discrimination" on that basis.
Wow. Still?!?!
39:00 The claim of censorship in medicine misstates the concept of professionalism...you can say whatever you like AFTER you resign your license. You must convince your colleagues BEFORE you convince the public.
But I thought darpa made mrna?
Can you ask Paul why he wont sue RFK jr for slander? thx
Slander
LOL, or why doesn't RFK sue Offit for slander?
IT s another Campbell
What is?
@@MRCAGR1 William not John did recive Nobel prize
Genuine question…if the mRNA vaccine doesn’t stop the transmission of the virus, why then should people be forced to get vaccinated? A stronger argument would seem to be that the vaccine keeps you out of the hospital thus relieving pressure on the overall health care system. The “we need to protect others” argument lost its legs once the public realized a vaccinated person could still transmit the virus. Great episode, and the book is ordered.
It reduces transmission. No vaccine in existence stops transmission or infection.
There is an unstated assumption in your that the effect of a vaccine on transmission is dichotomous either it stops transmission completely or has no effect on transmission. There is good evidence that vaccination does reduce transmission, but as the number of people who have varying levels of existing immunity has increased, it does change the equation
@@ccbowers I agree with you but all the arguments about transmission made by the policymakers were made on the extensive margin. This is again a communications problem that Offit has talked a lot about. And, the public health and epidemiological literature is in need of a massive reformation in terms of methods. I have a treasure trove of peer-reviewed articles around COVID that I have my graduate-level stats class read so they know what NOT to do. Anyway, I don’t disagree with you. It’s just tough to have people lose their jobs when discussing a reduction in the propensity to transmit versus stopping transmission. Cheers.
@@discreteentropy I feel that most of the communication complaints are largely "Monday Morning Quarterbacking" about a large group of people who had to say and act in real time, during a period of huge uncertainty to a large varying audience of various backgrounds and interests.
Sure, we have to learn from what happened, but it is tough for me to judge our scientific and public health leaders too harshly, given environment in which our political leaders (and to a somewhat lesser extent, media) failed us. But really our political leadership was dumping fuel onto fires, and blaming our scientists and public health officials to the public. They had a very delicate situation to balance and did not have the hindsight of knowing how the pandemic would progress. It was a lose-lose situation.
Second.
Any scientist who calls lab origin a conspiracy should be fired.
There is no data to support a conspiracy. No data, No science.
There are plenty of conspiracy theories involving a lab origin for SARS cov2. Your comment does not contain a rational for firing "any scientist" for making that assessment.
And replaced by a street thug from street . Because now the science will be done by the likes of you who can not tell left arm from right arm
@@Sceince01good one 😂 👍🏻 What I can’t understand, why they still come to listen to science podcasts!? Don’t they have their own world of Q people where they feel cozy 🤷🏻♀️ I guess they get bored hanging out with conspiracists like them.
Luc Montagnier indicate lab origin
First!
Clever you.
There were zero views when it turned up on my feed and I think it said 3 minutes ago.
I had only just woken op and paused early before falling back to sleep as it was around 4 AM.
If only I had leapt to the keyboard and written first but alas I failed to do so.
How can I live with the shame brought about my careless indolence?
Really?
What?
As the covid vaccines are "safe and effective" so should a person believe what pediatricians, such as offit and wife, say about autism. Failure to protect the child, near total failure by those "doctors" which claim the right to be in charge of childhood health. . Thus failures by "pediatricians", individually and as a "class", are the cause of autism, childhood obesity, many childhood allergies, and the dramatic decline of overall child health.
What are you even saying ? Can you start to try and at least make some sense ?
How about the responsibility of parents to raise their children with good habits and feed them healthy diets
@@myroslavabasladynsky4937 and it would be a responsibility of the patents to vaccinate the children. Not vaccinating children should be considered “ neglect “ of a child .
@@myroslavabasladynsky4937 I agree 100% How many "doctors" actually know what this and actually encourage this?
Please stop the defensive spin and lies. You lose all credibility when you do this.
Example of a lie here ? You f can’t give an example with evidence then you stop lying
I’ve long held Dr Offit in high esteem, but he lost a lot of credibility in this interview. The origin of COVID is still an open case and many serious people think a lab origin is likely. Rather than confront any of the evidence of a lab origin, Offit and TWIV practice lame pop psychology on the people they disagree with. I don’t think they are aware of how unserious this makes them look.
What evidence ? Does not there have to be some ? Also he sited evidence , give ones . Anything to counter it ? Why do you expect such a sincere believer in facts to be persuaded without evidence specially when it takes ignoring a ton of evidence ?
Luc Montagnier indicate Wuhan lab.escape (2020)
Luc Montagnier indicate Wuhan lab.escape (2020)
Admitting that it comes out of a lab and mad scientists can forget to do what they so love. So they will continue creating the worst kind of viruses, and the story is to be prepared when we would be confronted with nature creating such a deadly virus. Lots of doctors warned for the risks, but that stopped when sars-cov-2 escaped. Then all voices needed to follow the narrative. From a wet market. From all like 200 big cities in China. The virus first was detected on a wetmarket in the neighborhood of a bog city with a lab that was working with coronaviruses. Logic is than firstly, it probably came out of that lab and if not maybe wet market. But here. In march 2020 they allready were sure. Without the possibility to investigate (3months and china who doesn't give easily knfo) it was clear for our "smart people" , it came from wet market and very very unlikely from Wuhan lab. They think we are dumb
I never understood why travel was not restricted ? (WHO particularly made some quick changes, then deleted statements) Remember cruise ships ,then the next ship was on a schedule. It's just mind-boggling. I do believe it was circulating much earlier than documented.
Luc Montagnier was a Nobel prize.
He suggest SARS COV2 was an atenuated vaccin prototipe .
Logic, but can not enaugh be demonstrate.
But can explain,, temperature sensitivity,,of this virus,, and secretomany around this subject