Cue and Tip Testing for Cue Ball Deflection (Squirt)
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- čas přidán 31. 07. 2024
- billiards.colostate.edu
This video shows the results of CB deflection (or squirt) testing for various shafts and tips of different hardnesses and sizes.
The video also shows a simple testing procedure that anybody can do on their own to test any cues or tips without any special equipment.
Here's the printable rail ruler template:
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Your videos are the best Dr. Dave! Thanks
Thank you ... and you're welcome. I aim to swerve. :)
The Kamui we tested help chalk fine.
I'm glad you got the video to work.
As I mention in the video, a robotic cue testing machine would be better, but with careful procedures and analysis, the human results can be fairly accurate and consistent.
Hi Dave. Perhaps with 500 trials your mean values would be sufficiently representative with decent confidence levels. While I am certain your own keen insight can sense the repeatability in what you are doing, that does not necessarily translate to good statistics. Still, a very cool experiment in a qualitative sense!!
@@physicsguybrian I should have been more specific. The human cue tester must be a good shooter; otherwise, there would be significant problems with both precision and accuracy (repeatability).
@@DrDaveBilliards So true Dr D!
Late to comment but i like the video. I was aware of alot of the info in the it, but one thing i didnt know and was always curious about was how the height of the tip impacts (if at all) squirt. This most definitely answers that. Thanks for all you guys do.
FYI, the effect of tip height is addressed in detail here:
billiards.colostate.edu/threads/squirt.html#tip_height
Thank you for the positive comment.
I aim to swerve. :)
Very well done, and proves why I loved my Z2 shaft more than GCore or OB2!
wow . nice work. how are there not more comments and likes. This is amazing.
It's really funny to see Roland's first shots... He is naturally adjusting to squirt. That shows years of playing right there. You learn your cues, and adjust your stroke unthinkingly. Pretty cool video.
I was a little concerned with this at first, since we were doing an experiment to measure squirt; but since he was consistent, the comparison and contrast among the different tests was still valid.
DrDaveBilliards Definitely not questioning the validity of the tests, I'm just saying that he was that consistent in his natural adjustments. It just shows experience, that's all. :)
I personally would prefer the metric system also, but many pool players (especially those in America) still prefer "English units." I wish this were not the case, but it is a reality.
Regardless, people can use whatever scale they want when they do their own tests.
Thanks. The video is only a day old, so that would probably explain the lack of comments so far. Concerning "likes," most pool players would probably be bored by this video. I'm glad you weren't.
whats the purpose having a low deflection shaft? pros n cons
I just tested the video on an iPad and it was very clear.
Maybe try it again, or view it on a different computer.
Very interesting work! it would be interesting to investigate about the statistical dispersion of the angle of deflection as a function of the type of cue tip.
+Attilio Ortenzi Agreed, especially if an accurate and repeatable cue-testing machine were available.
I enjoyed the work. especially for using of standard conditions (more people with more repetitions), so you can have an idea of the standard error.
Like you, I wish the US and the pool world used the metric system like the rest of the world.
Regardless, the exact numbers aren't as important as the relative differences among them.
I loved that movie.
Nice Job Thank You
Bobby Scoggins Thank you, and you’re welcome.
Dr. Dave, I think a pneumatic ram with a cue attached and roller bearings configured as a bridge would be a great way to further test shaft deflection and cue ball squirt. A problem with humans is that deflection becomes part of the stroke motion since we inadvertently allow the cue to pivot some. The robot system would not allow that. This would demonstrate to some extent the amount of squirt is player dependent - when trying to stroke straight like you gents were, not when compensating.
We are still waiting for this to happen in the pool world. Maybe it hasn't because all the companies that make tips and shafts have a monopoly. The ram test would put all that to sleep as what's truly the best. Any human (even Dave) is not perfect and leaves room for error
@@godjhaka7376 Agreed! Being a physicist with a long career of experimentation and analysis, I would argue further that the ram method (designed properly so as not to introduce systematic errors that would bias the outcome) would produce not only better repeatability than any human could, but it would also produce much better predictive statistics because of large numbers of repeatable trials. Confidence level and associated confidence intervals get better with higher sample counts. To be able to say that cue shaft X or cue tip Y does Z based on 5 human stroke trials is a FAR CRY from results derived from 500 repeatable ram mechanism trials. This is no jab at Dave's work here. In fact, to obtain funding for development of a better experiment, one might use Dave's study as the zeroth order proof of concept. I also agree that there are monopolies out there that actively work hard to control the variables so that the "supply and demand" principal from econ 101 allows them to charge $500 for a cue shaft (for example) that is comprised of no more than $50 worth of raw materials. I will stop here because that aspect really frustrates! Cheers!!!
I am a 3-C player, and have a Z2 shaft for one of my cues (a Caudron). I found that it takes just the same effort to get used to the lesser squirt of that shaft to get the hit one wants on the object ball as it takes with any other good shaft.
After playing with the Z2 shaft for a few months I switched to my Longoni cue with S2 shafts (and Kamui Black MS), which now gives me the same good hits as the Z2 did.
I am not trying to take anything away from your very methodical testing effort.
What I am trying to say is that our instincts are perfectly adequate to compensate for any equipment we use to achieve the results we want. All the never ending searches for the most perfect equipment usually do not give us anything that permanently improves our performance, because the honeymoons don't last.
Agreed, low-squirt cues are not "silver bullet" solutions. They have disadvantages for some people; however, they do provide some advantages when used properly. For more info, along with justified lists of advantages and disadvantages, see:
billiards.colostate.edu/threads/cue.html#low_squirt
DrDaveBilliards ' when used properly' is the key to all this, and to what I was referring.
I maintain that an experienced player will perform equally with any well built shaft, regardless of deflection characteristics, once he is used to it. To wit, none of the top 20 in the world of 3-C billiards uses LD shafts, and they are getting all the hits they need. To lesser players, aiming method and stroke mechanics are of much greater importance than equipment differences.
Al Senior Most top pool players (especially younger players) use LD shafts. They do offer advantages when used properly. For more info, see:
billiards.colostate.edu/threads/cue.html#advantages
Regardless, I agree with you that a top player in any cue sport can master any cue (assuming the tip is good).
DrDaveBilliards That alone should be an indication of the lesser experience of those players, since they believe that technology will help them overcome lacking technique. In any case, pool is not billiards.
Dr Dave I have a question about specifically FHE. I see on your research a tip radius of a nickel has a 5% longer pivot point vs a dime radius. I have recently found the opposite to be true when comparing a nickel vs dime with my pool and snooker cue. Specifically only using FHE. With my pool cue I shaped it to be more than a dime it now has less deflection than it did using FHE than when it was shaped to a nickel and less than when it was shaped to a dime. The same thing happened with my snooker cue. And I’m trying to wrap my head around it. Would you possibly know the answer?
Tip shape affects how the tip contact point varies with shaft offset from center per the info and illustrations here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue-tip/size-and-shape/
If the tip is contacting the CB in different places, you will get different amounts of spin and CB deflection.
Dr. Dave. Thanks for your thorough video. Years ago I heard one of the cue manufacturers using a robotic machine to test cue stick deflection. Is that real? Have you seen one or would know how to build one?
Yes. See:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/squirt/robot-test-results/
11:25 Why would you say that a harder tip generally produces less squirt (deflection)? Are you talking about the spin/English and not the deflection? I would think that something with more shock absorption would produce less deflection. Why am I confused?
Mark Fleener A harder tip separates from the CB faster. For a detailed explanation of how this can affect CB deflection, see:
billiards.colostate.edu/threads/squirt.html#cause
prime example of why metric is far better when doing science 2 and 7 16ths of an inch lol
totaly
It’s not hard. 7/16, 3.5/8, 1.725/4, .8625/2,
I like the metric system as much as the next guy but don’t blame the label if you can’t arrange numbers
2540mm is a perfect example of why the imperial system is easier to visualize.
does softer tips make the cue ball spin more though?
No. See:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue-tip/hardness/
Thanks alot... i have a question plz.
Does tip hardness affect spin induced throw??
I have a joss cue(11.75 mm diameter shaft) with kamui black super soft tip,now its sooooo hard to pocket balls😔
A very little english or accidental english on CB would spin the OB alot .i feel like i havent play pool ever.please help😁
Abdulkarim Wriekat Tip hardness does not affect SIT. All tip hardness effects are summarized here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue-tip/hardness/
What type of tips do you play with? Or would you recommend for advanced players? Tall/ short, soft/ hard, laminate. I'm having excellent results with a kamui soft tip..
I
I honestly don't think it matters that much, as long as the tip holds chalk. Concerning hardness, see:
billiards.colostate.edu/threads/cue_tip.html#hardness
I generally prefer a harder tip.
A comment and question ...... As a extremely long time player pretty good maybe a weak a player at my best I have for example used extreme outside left and curved the cue around an object ball on the right side of an interferring ball and curved it back to the left with running left hand English Not hitting down or maeusiing the cue ball but use a level cue and at high speed ..... Why didn't my cueball deflect to the right or opposite side if I was using left ........ And when you have a frozen rail cue shot and use inside English rail first why does the cueball work and make the ball instead of Missing it the opposite way .... It seems to tottaly contradict what people show about deflection
First of all, the cue is never level if it extends over a rail.
If you use left sidespin, the CB will deflect to the right and then curve to the left. At slow speed (especially with topspin), the CB curves immediately; and at fast speed (especially with draw), the curve is delayed. For more info and demonstrations, see:
billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming_compensation.html#English_effects
If you post a link to a video demonstrating what you are describing, I am sure I can explain what is happening.
Rail cut shots are demonstrated and described (including how and why they work) in great detail here:
billiards.colostate.edu/threads/rail_cut_shots.html
Check it out.
Hi Dave I always appreciate your replies and that's no lie .... I was reffering to the object ball being on the rail not the cueball I'm sure you know the type of shots but when I see people demonstrate deflection if they use right hand the ball is ending up several; inches or whatever to the left . And that is something I have never had to deal with until the faster tables shafts and materials of balls have been upgraded and I can make love ng shots easily but not cutting them with any speed or the angles all go to hell .... I'll send you some samples thanks
0:36 tip heights; "measured from the edge of the ferrule to the top centre of the tip" - but the diagram shows measurement NOT to the top but to the end of the straight section.
I disagree, but it doesn't matter anyway ... each tip had the exact same height.
oh you are right - sorry - i didn't look closely enough - thought the tip included all that bite out of the disc thing
The Black Dot shaft performs circles around the Z2. Also a robot is best for continuity in testing. Still, the video was informative.
and people can run tables with broom sticks... its all preference. with you subconsciously correcting for squirt that you know that your cue is going to have, that is why it is even more important to stick with a shaft and keep playing with it rather then buying the "latest and greatest" every time they come out. eliminating variables is the key, the mechanics of the game mean that there will never be zero deflection and it will always have to be adjusted for.
Would love to see a test for which tip (hard or soft) actually provides more spin and by how much.
Tip hardness does not affect how much spin can be applied to the ball. For more info, see:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue-tip/hardness/
Some people also think it is possible to get more spin with an LD shaft. That is also incorrect. For more info, and demonstrations, see:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue/low-squirt/#spin
Some people also think it is possible to get more spin by swooping/swiping the stroke. That is also incorrect. For more info, and demonstrations, see:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/stroke/swoop-swipe/
@@DrDaveBilliards I get what you're saying however, doesn't tip softness allow you to hit less of the cue ball imparting more spin. Meaning if you are playing right English and went as far right to the cue ball as possible without miscue while using a soft tip, you hit that same spot with a hard tip wouldn't it miscue? There for a softer tip would allow you to create more spin correct? I know you are the guy to ask thank you so much for your reply.
@@KarlsCracklingCottonMouth No, and no. In my experience (and some testing), leather tip hardness makes no difference on the miscue limit, as long as the tip is well chalked. BTW, the brand of chalk doesn't seem to make much difference either, per the info and demos here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/chalk/comparison/
@@DrDaveBilliards you the man! One more thing then, it is also said that a thin shaft or smaller tip enables you to create more spin. Is this a myth too?
@@KarlsCracklingCottonMouth That's not true either; although, you do need to position the cue differently to get the same amount of spin, based on the size of the shaft and curvature of the tip, per the info and illustrations here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue-tip/size-and-shape/
stick on a string 'pendulum stroke' would have been a nice addition to your study. creating the 'base'.
Got a kamui tip medium ,black ,do not hold d chalk, I pin it, still shines, WHY, HOW TO FIX THIS , by d way , I replayed d film , works wonderful, thank s DOC, regards j.s,
thats just what kamui tips do... i have put a lot on trust me, I guess you can scuff them every other damn game if you want. switched to Moakami about 3 years ago and that is all that has been on my cues since. the last Super soft clear i put on my cue lasted me 2 1/2 years before i put a new one on and it probably could have lasted longer and i play 4 tournaments a week and a few hours a day at home. never once shined up on the edge and they hold their shape amazingly and about half the price. just make sure the person putting it on knows what they are doing.
my talisman does the exact same. medium hardness and never holds chalk 😤 just ordered a soft 11mm
WHY in the world didn't you use the metric system? I have found that in a barroom environment i'm rendered mathematically incompetent when trying to add multiple fractions with different denominators in my head.
Good test video. And if you are not first only means that you are not first...that is an obvious analysis. but you are not last. last is only determined when something is done, sooo.... you are just not first..yet.
I appreciate the scientific approach, trying to get the most reliable possible results. However, this imperial metric system is just crazy weird.
Like you, I wish the US and the pool equipment manufacturers used the metric system like the rest of the world.
Regardless, the exact numbers aren't as important as the relative differences among them.
I understand that you have to think on your primary source of viewers. Still, you could use the to systems in your videos, because for people used to the Metric system, the Imperial is really hard to understand. This could give your channel still more audience outside US and more upvotes.
pitthepig That is a good suggestion to also list metric units in future videos. Thanks.
Like the man said it is more about the differences then it is the numbers. It's not like you measure a shot out with a measuring tape before you take the shot.
"He blinded me with science !" Thomas Dolby czcams.com/video/GllSfiwCEtY/video.html but seriously I just love it when I find videos like this where pocket billiards is examined scientifically.
I hope you're not also the last? :)
Ricky Bobby!
Not an accurate test u cue across the ball differently on each shot also it's impossible to hit the ball the same speed each time
martyn roberts ... that's why you need to do lots of shots and only use the data for the shots with consistent speed (based on ball travel distance) and consistent english (based on the rebound angle off the rail).
Really? Its meant to demonstrate theory. Practice. "The more you practice, the luckier you get".
John Barioni has a robot that shoots the same exact shot every time. To test out his shafts among others
Omg stupid iPhone, why did it add laminate, I didn't even type that. Btw love all your videos.
Rolland ' stroke is low deflection...I do not understand shooting the ball way harder than you ever would in a game to do these tests. If your worried about swerve put less english on or shorten the shot distance
The angle remains the same you can figure the squirt at any distance
To play at a top level, a wide range of speed and amounts of spin is required. FYI, CB deflection (the net effect of squirt and swerve) varies with shot distance and speed per the info in the videos and sub topics here:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/sidespin/aim/
@@DrDaveBilliards maybe one out of 500 shots would require the speed and spin u shoot your deflection test with. Thats my point. Ps I am a top level amature.
@@alphacapo The purpose to use fast speed during testing is to measure just the squirt characteristics of the shaft and tip. Swerve depends too much on shot speed, so during shaft/tip testing it is best to use fast speed. For more info, see:
billiards.colostate.edu/faq/squirt/robot-test-results/
@@DrDaveBilliards but it's pointless if the test is unrealistic. Like I said...if your worried about swerve shorten the distance. then swerve won't come into play as heavily.. if a shot deflects 1 inch at 3 feet in six feet it's gonna deflect 2 inch. But at 6 feet swerve is more of a factor than at three feet. So just measure at three feet at realistic game play speeds
@@alphacapo ... but at short distance and slower speed, the amount of CB deflection (squirt minus swerve) will be small and the differences will be less noticeable and measureable. For more justification, see the info at the link above.
i appreciate what your trying to do , but wanted to ask about that table ,,,,,, it seems extremely slow and the rails dead sounding . maybe its just from the camera and mic ,,,,,,,,, if the rail was dead I doubt the cueball would have been so consistent anyway ,,,,,,,,,,,, but no one wants to factor in all that crap when the most obvious reason is to use felt instead of that non grabbing simonis crap ....... ITS THE REASON I DONT LIKE POOL ANY LONGER , PLAYING 9 BALL I RAN 9 RACKS STARIGHT 1 NIGHT ., NOW I AM LUCKY IF I RUN 1 OR 2 A night ,,,,,,,,,, and 9 ball isn't the same if you have to compensate for deflection , ,,,,,,,,,,,,, as hard as those balls here hit I woulda guessed that cueball would go 4 or 5 rails easily
That table is a little slow and the cushions are not very lively, but this has no effect on the squirt (CB deflection) measurements at the ruler on the first rail.
Film very bleary ,could not read ,not clear at all, fix PLESE ,, on iPad, thanking u,
ugg
Until now it was called english, now the same cue ball action is being called squirt... Are you fucking kidding me ?:-) now, I can rebuild an entire web SITE !
English is how you hit the ball to get spin, squirt is how far the ball goes off it's intended line of travel.
And this is why imperial measure system is bad.
There are many reasons why it is bad, but most Americans still don't use or relate to International units.