Could F-35 With Hypersonic MAKO Missile Defeat Russian Skywave OTH Radar? (WarGames 219) | DCS
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- čas přidán 31. 05. 2024
- Today we look at using the new US hypersonic Mako air to ground missile launched from a 5th gen stealth F-35 to disable Russian air defense which is protecting a Skywave OTH radar.
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0:00 Overview
2:14 Scenario Details
7:18 Battle
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The reason skywave might be able to detect stealth fighters is the lower frequency. F-35 is optimized against higher frequency tracking radars. So while Skywave might be able to tell you an F-35 is there, it's not accurate enough to guide a missile to it. Early warning only, not fire control.
that is basically what i was gonna say, its also part of how they shot the f117 down in serbia.
Came here to say this. It's also got terrible ranging, azimuth, and altitude detection qualities and noise filtering. So it'll be like "there's something over there moving", and that's about it.
@@skatman3278 Agreed. You make a good point too. I shouldn't have said it can tell an F-35 is there. It can tell something is flying over there. They might deduce it's a stealth aircraft from it's absence from other radars and other factors, but won't directly detect it as an F-35.
@@mark97199 yeah, I knew what you mean though and that's the important thing. Haha
@@freddiejohames8332not quite. The F117 shot down in Serbia was tracked by a normal fire control radar since it had it's bomb bay doors open. It was an incredibly lucky shot
(Made posible by NATO'S complacency since they flew the exact same route as every day before and had no SEAD nor EW support at the time)
Good old grump eating chips trick
Psychological warfare
Those are crisps according to Cap, LOL
*crisps
Don’t play sounds of people eating like that, some people are sensitive to it. You guys might find it funny but it causes emotional distress and psychological stress to some. There’s no warning and it’s incredibly loud so RIP to headphone users. Misophonia. You guys as content creators should be more aware.
I love how Grump is always eating when we get the "Grump Cam"
He always reminds me of Fight Club, when Brad Pitts on the payphone, and going to town on an apple
Grump's that one guy who gets crumbs in the cockpit....... there's always one !
glad I'm not the only one
this is why I fly in caps jet and not grumps hahahah
@@simba1113 could be worse mate, it could have been my granny acting as back seat driver
Haha there’s literally always one 🤣🤣
@@Devil_dog1997 can't blame her, as she's nearly 90
I'm starting to get a bit worried about Grump's cholesterol levels.
It's high.
Legend has it that he eats kale chips
he probably has that sound effect ready to go in the video editor. Or Cap does
Recent evidence seems to indicate that the S400 capability has been significantly exaggerated
Yes this may be the case.
You mean like much of Russias arsenal?
recent evidence seems to indicate that everything from Russia has been significantly exaggerated. with the notable exception of how little they care about their own losses.
T72 and T80 turret altimeters are getting a good testing though 😂😂😂😂
Tonight on Grim Reapers, Cap toggles some switches, Grump hordes the in-flight snacks, the team discuss size vs boom-boom power and we try our hand at CFIT
😂😂😂😂 [Jessica by Allman Brothers plays]
Well done boys
@@WyvernFalken not enough ppl are gonna get this very good joke 😂
Now, back to the studio...
Love the grump cam it is always so random
Fun fact, if you know the radar location as well as atmospherics in the area, you can predict the spots where the oth radar will likely detect you. Same with standard los radar. Due to ducting, refraction and such, you get points of higher sensitivity as well as areas of lower sensitivity. Radars and weapons doctrine are then adjusted for the threats according to these high vs low detectability areas.
As far as stealth detection, the rcs' of a stealth aircraft is dependent on aspect. The f-22 only has the .oo1 sq meter rcs' at a head on aspect. With radar waves hitting at extreme angles like from above, they are more likely to reflect off of other surfaces. Also frequency makes a difference too. Radar absorbant material is tuned for specific frequencies.
Thanks
I wonder if Skywave can detect the low-frequency noise of Grump's munching his crisps in the cockpit?
Sure did - and sent the track to S400 for the kill 😂
lol
It is absolutely a thing. Even UHF radar can detect stealth aircraft. Below about 1GHz you start to see a significant increase in RCS, though as this applies to everything there is also a huge increase in clutter. However these lower frequency radar systems are limited by diffraction so that the information they give isn't useful for terminal guidance, and in the case of OTH radar is barely sufficient to vector in interceptors. The utility of these systems is to give early warning that something is there, along with some basic kinematic information which can be used to roughly categorize the threat.
Stealth CAN be detected. It's the TRACKING of stealth that is the problem of radar.
It can be detected but only if close to the radar as it works now.
That chomping noise!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11
Its easier to listen to than vocal fry.😳
Good video Cap, thanks! That S-400 is so over-modeled compared to real-world observations, it's a bit silly. It has been hit by so many different models of missiles and attacks in Ukraine, and in DCS it is capable of nearly hitting a hypersonic missile before it hits a target over 15 miles to the west? : )
The Mako is serious business once it gets into that F-35 belly. Combine that with other upcoming USAF and USN missiles and they will have basically doubled their overall combat effectiveness. Add in the AIM-260, Peregrine, and one of several more in-development; I can't wait to see what they develop. I'm hoping for the model focused on modularity personally, as the concept of swapping seeker heads, guidance systems, warheads, and adding additional booster segments to increase range would be an ideal asset. Imagine an F-15EX, B-52, or B-21 carrying dozens of these super long-range modular missiles and have them guided in via the datalink of the near future. Last I heard, they already have an early version of the new datalink implemented. It will combine all sensor data from all assets into usable information by all assets. Everything from ground sensor data, small ISR drones, AWACS, loyal wingmen, high-flying/hypersonic ISR assets, satellite sensors, and 4th/5th/6th gen. jets adding both their radar and infrared data.
Finally, I believe the sixth gen jets will either have laser weapons for defense (dazzling IR seekers at minimum, and potentially enough power to burn through radar seekers), or they will have developed something from the program launched to perform R&D on mini defensive missiles. Basically an active protection system for jets rather than tanks.
Love the Grump cam hearing him eating potato chips during a low level high speed dash.
Thank you Cap + boys! 💥Very exciting to watch. Yes, the scuttlebutt is that skywave has trouble distinguishing low-flying planes from ground clutter. But to mitigate that, they use low frequencies to help penetrate ground clutter and advanced signal processing to try to filter out a lot of noise. It's also rumored that current stealth tech is less effective against low frequencies, but obviously it's too classified for the public to know how much a Raptor or Lightning II would show up.
Low frequency has trash resolution though. It's less "contact bearing 276 at 40nm, 27000ft, hot" and more "there's something airborne on our northwest somewhere"
You can't guide a missile on low frequency radar returns, no matter how good your signal processing is
@@cockatoo010 The low frequency being good against stealth is pretty much a myth (I mean it is better but still not good). It started when the F117 got shot down. It wasnt the fact that the SAM operator was using low frequency radar. It was more due to them flying the same path every night for weeks and the radar picked it up when it had the bay doors open. I mean sure its better than higher frequencies but its still not good.
I believe CAT, which is basically air turbulence detection can pick up where stealth aircraft "have been" but these systems AGAIN are not accurate or widely used. And can not be used to lock missiles.
Australian over the horizon radar also uses air turbulence and can give an area where stealth aircraft are. This is an ultra low frequency radar that's bounced off the stratosphere as an early warning radar.
@@markc1548 interesting. That would make sense as to why the US and some others are putting so much effort into dealing with exhaust and other aspects of stealth.
Grump Cam best cam !!! Nap of the earth whilst eating crisps. A legend in his own snack time. Awesome.
Grump cam with grump eating chips should be a channel trademark haha
Love those custom paint jobs
yes fly did most of them for us
Grump casually snacking while taking out enemy assets never gets old.
Grump scores almost every comment. Priceless!
I’m glad that grumps crisp cam is becoming more of a thing
Lower frequency radars, like VHF and Shortwave frequencies, have wavelengths that are close to major features of an airplane, like tails and wings and stuff. In that case, it doesn't really matter what your coatings and shapes are, that whole feature acts like a radio wave resonator and signal gets back to the ground station.
And, as in sound waves, lower frequencies are longer frequencies, and carry much more energy in a wave. That makes it much harder to absorb that wave. Cap being a drummer probably has had some experience with bass frequencies getting EVERYWHERE and wrecking the room.
Interesting video as always, the camaraderie on display is exceptional and the discussion lifts my understanding of many topics... n' stuff. 🙄
The really neat part about skywave is that it needs sunshine to function properly.
@grimreapers - Good stuff as always guys! Eventually Grim Reapers will have to do a "Grump Cam Compilation" video when you get enough of his hilarious shenanigans captured on video. 🤣
I have enough footage over the years for that.
Old school early warning radars work at relatively low frequencies (HF, VHF, UHF, etc) which are better able to detect objects and have longer ranges. They can theoretically detect stealth aircraft which are tuned in design to hide from higher frequencies. However, the trade off is that they do not have much precision at those lower frequencies and thus cannot provide very accurate object location data. For early warning purposes this is used just to detect something, somewhere, in some general area is of potential interest.
Then other types of radar can be used to narrow down the target type and location. Eventually these other types can provide aircraft intercept vectors and perhaps even target tracking and lock.
In other words, these old radars might be able to detect stealth aircraft to some extent but are unlikely to be able to track such aircraft and completely incapable of providing weapons lock on their own.
Doesn't matter. It's enough to know it and get the missile close, Missile will do the rest.
Drop your uberhuman fantasies that those you want to kill are stupid.
I have to know GRUMP what kind of chips???? LMAO!!🤣😅
Skywave reminds me of an old Cold War backscatter radar site here in Maine. They dismantled it years ago, but I do remember the site. There were 3 antenna arrays, each was a mile long and they bounced the radar over to a receiving site in western Maine.
I'll have to go through my old photos and see if I still have some pics from before it was decommissioned.
Grump always eating and flying at the same time.
Loving Grump chomping on chips? Lol
I'm loving it!
Great job simba, an f15 flying on the deck with blinders on
if I close my eyes there are no threats. thanks for watching.
I love the GrumpCam ASMR.
If all else fails, Grump could start up a mukbang ASMR channel 😂
I also believe that the MAKO can be configured for naval use via vertical launchers and can be used for sea to land and sea to sea combat. This also means that f18s could also use this weapon. Allowing for the navy to have a dominant anti ship attack. Between the NASM/LARASM, the anti ship Tomahawk, and the MAKO the navy can have a layered anti ship attack that could easily overwhelm most ship defense systems.
Stealth radar absorption is focused to high frequency as those are the frequencies used to lock on. They can be detected by low frequencies but you cant lock on with that data. You can however direct intercepts with it. All of that is publicly available information.
....who's eating crisps??!
Glad to hear your voices is well
The MAKO missile will have an Anti-Ship version too. Can you test it out vs a Chinese Naval fleet? Thanks GR in advance! Love your videos and your hard work!
I also remembered hearing that. Along with usage from the f35 it can be used on the f18 and vertical launch systems of ships allowing for a truly dominant anti ship attack between the MAKO and the NASM/LARASM plus the sea attack tomahawk. I imagine that one ship in the carrier fleet will be mostly setup as a “attack” ship mostly boasting anti ship weapons or that it would be more spread between the ships.
I love that you guys give the target every advantage. Great video.
It's lucky Grump isn't flying the F35 or to the Skywave would pick up the crisp crunching
OMG been waiting for this
Honestly, the 35 + Mako seems to me like the ultimate strike weapon. You fly your lighting to the edge of air defense weapon and fire the Mako. And before any air defense system has had time to detect the threat, it's hit its target. Gives no reaction time at all
I'd love to see a scenario with The A-10C & F-15E while working together competing, for kills (+important kills), best ground support, and of course survival! VS Mi-24's, Strelas, Pantsirs, Tunguskas, SA-11's, and SU-25's! Plus provide ground support VS Technical Trucks, BTR's, BMP's, T-72's, and T-90's!🙏👍
"That still only counts as one!"
- Gimli
@@pahtar7189 lol perfect analogy of what I'm driving at😆👍
Btw for the ppl that may comment that it's too much and SA-11's and T-90's are too much, obviously the numbers will range for different units! I'm talking about a couple SA-11's and a couple T-90's representing boss level threats! Perhaps around 4 of each Mi-24's and SU-25's and only a few of The other SAM's I mentioned! Plus it is possible for The A-10 to defeat The SA-11 however just bc they (F-15E & A-10C) are competing doesn't mean it wouldn't be obviously advantageous for The F-15E to tackle it, having said that Important kills should count more, and however The A-10 makes up for this, getting more less important kills or going head to head will be at the Pilot's discretion ;)
Could Bluto's historical mistake happen.
"Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?"
*casually eating crisps* ... ...... wires. Wires! WIRES!!!!🤣
😆🤣🤣🤣🤣
17:30 - by this time, Pete Mitchell has bent his airframe so badly that it's almost impossible to fly..
Simba flies blind @ 400 feet = no problems. Cap does bombing run = crashes into ground !!
…yes, but a thing happened - S400
@@dexlab7539 all S400's were disabled. Bichin Betty was screaming 'ALTITUDE' & the altimeter was down to 100 feet. He crashed !
It was S-400 hit, we checked the replay.
you noticed something.... hmmmm I won't comment. hahahahah
Simba flying on the back seat while Cap giving order and cant forget grump chomping on chips but no on hold phone music while flying. Don't let it happen again Grump.
yeah sometimes Imagine that painting of Washington crossing the Delaware is a representation of me and cap flying in the F=15e
This channel is so much fun to watch. Love the content, guys.
Love the Grump Cam crunch!
It is a thing. Long wavelengths can be used to detect various stealth aircraft. They do not usualy produce a targeting grade track.
15:37 The aircraft in the Cavalese cable-car disaster was the EA-6B Prowler; the wire zapped the fin and the right leading edge of the wing. The fin had been enlarged from the A-6B because many of the ELINT antennas were in a faring on top of the fin. The EA-6B had two more crew than the normal A-6, both electronic warfare and intelligence officers, so the entire aircraft was beefed up to handle the weight of them and their equipment.
For some reason I was thinking that incident was a Marine AV-8B… surely that didn’t happen twice, did it?
12:10 grump share those chips !!
amazing footage.
There was some bits of video compression artifacts
Yeh not sure why compression was so bad on this vid?
I wonder what flavour crisps grump was munching on this time.
Mako?
I think these were ear wax flavored ...
@@jamesstarkey9955 😳☝️
Small but fast so a lot of kinetic energy, the release of energy at impact possibly as powerful as the warhead.
everyone: casually flying like its the death star trench run
grump: OOOO CHIPS!
I just want to say - your videos are not only entertaining, but they are also an excellent way to understand current military technology, a very useful resource, given the conflicts going on at the moment.
16:30 Grump, is chewing chips and popcorn loudly off chat your new thing? 😂😂
Everybody loves it, so yes. A few hate it so especially yes.
Grump eats chips exactly like I do.
Grump do stay snacking though.
i love Grump cam, hes literally the guy at the back of the class
But front of the class when flying imo
Hahaha nothing beats eating chips while flying a combat mission... :D
Skywave could indeed be able to detect stealth for one simple reason, current stealth is designed to point no reflective normals at the horizon. so in level/near level flight a radar emitter at roughly the same altitude will get near zero direct reflection.
Now, look at the nose of that F35 and imagine what happens when you raise your emitter to 45degreess above that curved surface, yup, a bunch of it reflects straight back... and yup, that atmospheric bounce is similar to having the emitter up really, really high.
(In truth, the same should apply when banking beyond about 25..30 degrees, exposing that curve (and other curves) to the horizon should MASSIVLY increase the aircraft's return, but I see no evidence that being modelled in game)
----
Edit, Yes, I am ignoring radar absorbent coating, which will indeed greatly reduce the return (by roughly 80% from what I've read)...... at least, if it hasn't been burned off yet ;)
When I was in Alaska, there were several large antenna all over the place, near Elmondorf and Anchorage. I wonder if these may have been similar to the Skywave.
Also, if the skywave radar is set up to reject the normal background "ground clutter", it might actually notice that it is NOT receiving the returns from the ground that it expects to see in a given location. As the stealth jet passes over an area that might normally be very reflective, the stealth material would absorb either the incident or the reflected radiation from the normally seen "target", and that would be noticeable. Sort of like seeing a shadow moving against a normally bright background of clutter. While a human operator may or may not notice it, a computer program that's always scanning might.
As a ham operator, we always hated the Soviet OTH radar because it operated inside of internationally recognized ham bands. It was known as "the woodpecker" because of the sound you'd hear on your HF receiver. It was most annoying and interfered with normal communications.
The Theme to Mission Impossible would be good background music for this one
@21:00 towns ppl are WTF comrade, you disrupt my coffee vodka.
There is no escape... Make your time.
S-400 hypersonic capabilities? The two Storm Shadows filmed flying over a S-300 or a S-400 battery before striking the Belbek airport don't agree with that. BY the way, during the video, a Russian soldier had a laughing fit of relief while seeing the missiles going away because they knew the missiles were arriving but neither the battery neither the missies of a nearby TOR system were able to catch the missiles. Actually, the S-300/S-400 battery didn't shoot at all.
Don't forget that the s-300/s=400 systems are aggressive to a fault even targeting friendly aircraft. Either the system is up and aircraft don't fly around it, or the system is down and aircraft operates. (I know it's not that black and white. But it is a system with flaws.)
Grump must be renamed to Chips
🍿
For anyone that wants to know a bit more about theese radars ringway manchester has some great radio and rf stuff like the woodpecker ect.
I recall the US developed a over-the-horizon backscatter (OTH-B) radar at Bangor ANGB, Maine in the late 1980s and plans to build another one at Mountain Home AFB, Idaho. The Bangor radar went through testing, but not sure if it ever became FMC. I heard stories that if the atmospherics were just right it could reach the UK coast.
It makes sense that a radar that looks from above has a much easier time to see stealth planes since even stealth planes have flat surfaces on top and below.
The warhead maybe 130 pounds but the 1300 pound movie is moving at Mach 5.
Grump ASMR returns
It is really poetic that Cannonball is the lone survivor while sporting the livery of his grandpas plane from WW2.
Grump is the new Stig on GM
Guy with the crisps is a legend❤😂
Send in SAS with thermite charges instead.
WE NEED MORE GRUMP CRISP CAM!!!
You should do a talk about Anti Aircraft Artillery with Habitual Linecrosser if you can reach him it would be real intersting to see how close dcs is to actual SAMs
My understanding is that the presence of stealth planes can be detected at long range, but the signal is not of a quality to actually know where they are for targeting, just that they may be present. Just what I recall hearing. I am not an SME by any means.
16:33 hmmmmm Crunchy
Im in Darwin Australia atm, and theres huge meseums showing the damage done in the first ww2 air raids here
Can you do a sim of that battle, its the same fleet that wiped pearl harbor only a couple weeks prior.
As a secondary version, would the current modern fighter setup here make a difference if the same fleet attacked today?
I had an idea for your Loyal Wingman! Instead of using regular AI F-16's, Please🙏 Create/use HAVE GLASS F-16's! I say this bc The Loyal Wingman, Skyborg, and finally CCA's are all planned for stealth/low observable! Please keep the cool Cockpit ;)
The idea im driving at is essentially cramming your already existing AI F-16 Wingman, F-16V, and HAVE GLASS F-16 to represent anyone of the 3 programs i mentioned😅👍
High frequency radars (like fighter jets' X-band) are good at seeing details. That's because short wavelength interact strongly with small objects. On the other hand, such strong interaction implies that the radar wave will be easily deflected by stealth surfaces, or perfectly absorbed by RAM paints.
Low frequency radars have long wavelengths, which will diffract more, increasing the chances of a radar return. They won't even interact with RAM paints, because they're too thin. Still, that doesn't mean they see everything. The radar return may be too weak, small objects won't be seen at all, and the resolution is always awful (so no radar lock).
At best, low frequency radars know that a stealth aircraft is inside a circle of... i don't know... 50km?
I swear Grumps would eat in a real jet fighter
14:39 Luckily... Those cables does not has collision hitboxs (In real world, in Cavalese Italy 3 February 1998, There's an EA-6B Prowler accidentally cut a cable supporting a cable car of an aerial lift, The plane was fine, But causes a cable car fell down the valley and 20 passangers on the cable car perished...)
*9:39* trying to explain my new wardrobe to hr.
The Jindalee Operational radar network (JORN) apparently picked up an early gen stealth aircraft in the 90's . I believe it was a B2 but dont quote me ( this is 3rd hand info hehe) . The theory goes that because the radar is bounced at an oblique angle it hits the top/down portion of an airframe rather than a side aspect most conventional radars view targets from . This was a total rumor at the time though , I don't actually know if it's true but the theory at least seems solid . Obviously 35 years of advances in stealth tech would probably have solved that problem . Incidentally the Jindalee station was built by TELSTRA , the phone company .
You guys really had to channel your inner Stroke-3 for this mission, huh.
I'm pretty sure that you wouldn't be able to hide from an Over The Horizon Radar by flying low and fast. They are pulse doppler radars so they can see right through the ground clutter. In essence they are able to see any objects moving towards or away from them, no matter the altitude or clutter.
(nearly) any Radar can detect Stealth Planes. But it varies in the Distance. Rule of Thumb: The lower the Frequency, the further away you can see them. The newer they are, the further away you can see them and if its more stable to electronic warfare, the further away you can see them, if you are maximise the ECCM Status of the Radar.
So an old SAM Radar of lets say an SA-2 Guideline can see the Stealth Fighter after the Radar Guy can see you Eye to Eye from outside. The Radar of an S-400 can see you in optimal cases, if you are firing some Harms at it and an Pantsir Radar can see you 10s before you open up the Baydoors to release some AARGM-ER. No Radar whatsoever can see you at the full Distance (except the Radar at the Frontdoor of a Wallmart to open the Door)
Then: The Target Locking Radar must be in the Area of 9GHz or higher, because the dimensions of an Antenna is bound to the Wavelengh. 9GHz has a nice small Wavelengh so an Antenna fits into a Missile. But for an 9GHz Radar a Stealth Fighter is close to invisible beyond 10miles. So for a Ground Station its a dilemma: You can see an F-22 shortly after he opens his Bay to free some AGM-88 HARM or you have to build a Radar which cant do any harm to the Plane except if you direct other Planes in the line of sight at the Stealth Plane and they also have to aim at you visualy: There are no Radars in any Fighter who uses lower Frequencies well below 9GHz. Antenna Size, like i explained earlier.
There are experimental Radars wich hunts the Turbulences behind a Plane but i didnt know any of these Systems in numbers in any SAM Site, Radar Station or Fighternose. Any of these are pure Prototypes in Universities and Startups, some only exist as Paperwork only and the first ideas are from the time, the F-117 was in Service. So in reality: Stealth is a good way to get closer to radar stations, but you won't be completely invisible. Not with a ship, not with an F-117, not with an F-22, not even with a B-21. And: Any Radar can see Stealth Planes but not a single one at full Distance.
stealth aircraft would be both easier and harder to detect with this style of radar as they're generally designed to defeat radar looking up at them this bounces of top of plane and back off of ionosphere but has 3 lots if signal difusion to clarify instead of it's normal 2 with a lot of the coatings
Any plans to use this in some naval battles Cap? It is capable of anti ship.
Will have to make a separate Anti-ship version in game.
Wasn't it a EA-6B Prowler that cut that cable car wire?
It was probably the heavy ECM pod at the top of the vertical tail fin of the EA-6 Prowler that cut the cable. And even if it were torn off, the majority of the tail fin would be intact
It Was a EA6B from VMAQ-2. I was on the deployment to Italy. The cable didn't hit the tail, it hit near the wing root and tore the cable on the hydraulic cylinders
@@rumannkoch4864ECM pods were carried on wing or centerline stations, not on the tail.
I'm not an expert on the subject but that's what I thought: stealth capabilities on a plane are not the same all around the aircraft, for example F-35 (and all other jet aircraft) has lower radar cros-section from the front but is less stealth from the sides and rear; so because skywave radar waves bounces on the plane from above and not from the front like a normal radar they could be more capable at detecting a stealth aircraft than a direct radar.
This is better than the top gun maverick plot
It was an EA-6B Prowler that hit the cable in ITALY of all places...