Awesome video and great to see a company understand customer service. I will definitely keep superior in mind when my cylinders need to be replaced on my P210.
Dan, great discussion on cylinder management and addressing the old myths about shock cooling. Excellent info! Flight schools should teach this about the time a student is ready to take the PPL check ride.
@18:00 he suggest that a lean climb will damage the engine. This is not necessarily true. If you have leaned back to the proper lean-of-peak, out side of the red-fin and you monitor this as you climb (because mixture will get richer with altitude) and you monitor the CHT's then you should not cause any problems.
This is by far, one of your best videos, thank you for sharing. I punched my ticket last May, fly weekly, and am starting to work towards my instrument rating. I continue to binge watch aviation videos (my wife loves it :-( ) to glean as much information as I can. Thank you to you and all others who spend so much time compiling and thoughtfully sharing their aviation experiences
Just to update this video #4 Cylinder was covered under full warranty by SAP @ 394 hours TSN. This cylinder was the lowest leak-down reading as covered earlier in this series. Since this video the Aircraft has accumulated another 30+ hours and operated at higher power (75-80%) ROP settings on Mineral Oil for new cylinder break-in period. The latest leak-down results are very positive with #4 at 73/80 and improved readings overall. Only one Cylinder did not show any significant improvement so we will continue to monitor the situation and operate on mineral oil then take compression readings one more time.
The one thing missing from the video is identification of the leak. It either leaks from the exhaust valve, or past the piston (rings), and it is really easy to hear whether the air goes into the exhaust or into the crankcase. Which was it? From what you describe, it sounds like the rings on #4 were not seated properly, potentially pointing to ineffective run-in, but apparently the cylinders were not glazed.
I doubt that Superior gives that type of customer attention to every compression concern. I am glad that you received it, but maybe it is because of who you are and that it was going to be posted on your CZcams channel.
Dan, you guys got off on an engine operation discussion and did not fully describe why you had low cylinder compression and what was done to address the issue.
The plan is to run the engine for some more hours and do another hot compression check and see if we're seeing the numbers come up. If we still have problems, Superior might be replacing the cylinders. John Efinger has a good followup in the comments below.
@@TakingOff Superior replacing the cylinders (again) doesn't help you... unless you first determine what caused the problem. Since the compressions are rather poor on all 6 cylinders, my (non A&P) guess is improper break-in.
In my world of large highway Diesel engines, there is an issue in the winter of the engine not generating enough heat in the block and in the oil during extreme cold, say anything below -10°F. This can cause a lot of problems, and strangely part of the issue is the extreme efficiency of modern engines, not using enough fuel to generate sufficient thermal energy. Interesting that such things are also part of the piston aviation world. Great Video.👍
Dan, Great video, cant wait for the followup with the findings. I loved the fact that the cylinder manufacture came out and were going to 100% back their product, that's almost unheard of these days. I also like the fact that some old wives tales were put to rest. I would love to see more of these type of videos.
This was full of incredibly good info. As an A&P myself and pilot, these gentleman were on the spot. Wish more videos had these types of interviews and info. Did you get a failure analysis back on the failure of the cylinder?
I'm not an aircraft mechanic but a certified motorcycle mechanic and an engine is an engine. You need the specs of that engine to know what the compression should be. Compression ratio of the engine is a major factor. I want to see at least 90 PSI for most motorcycles in a compression test with carb open or intake butterfly open. TBW would be different. If an engine fails compression test the next test is a leak down test. Could be as simple as a tight valve lash and the vavle lash needs adjusted.
"Could be as simple as a tight valve lash and the valve lash needs adjusted" No, it couldn't be as valve lash and pushrod adjustment was accomplished during Cylinder installation. I write each reading with permanent marker in top flange of rocker cover face then take a picture to record readings L & R Engine sides as part of the Acft file. In addition that would cause leakage at valve-train not rings.... Aircraft are not like Motorcycles & Auto compression test. Leak-Down is the only approved means of compliance.
I graduated from MMI, Phoenix in December of '99 Joe. Can't believe 19 years went by so fast! These days I do more OPE (outdoor power equipment), and automotive work. John, I've never heard the term "master orifice" in all my years of turning wrenches on ground-based equipment. 2 questions - is this referring to a leak down tester, or a compression tester, or is this just a term referring to the gauge set? Hope it doesn't take up too much of your time to answer this. Thanks!
@@SmittySmithsonite After the Army I also went to MMI in Phoenix and graduated in 1994 and took Honda and Yamaha. While working in a dealership I was sent to Arctic Cat and received my Cat Master certificate. While working I went to college for computer science, but I really hate coding. Harley Davidson opened a plant here and I applied for the line technician job which fixes any problems with the bike as it comes off the line before going to a dealership. Had three interviews and got the job. I was not Harley certified at the time and when asked about that I told them "A motorcycle is a motorcycle" I think I got the job mainly because I was a mechanic and went to college. I had to do audits on the motorcycles as they came off the line and work side by side with the engineers. I did more meetings then wrenching but it was a fun job. Now I"m in charge of a manufacturing plant that makes after-market parts for Harley. The only wrenching I do now is my own stuff and make custom motorcycles from time to time. I do have a custom bike I built in the Sturgis motorcycle museum. That's me a nutshell lol
@@joem5110 - Well thanks for your service, Joe! 👍🍻 You had way more drive than I did. I let life kick me in the ass many times and keep me down, most of it my own fault. Took me alot of years to "get it". Doing ok the past 17 years now, though. I like working for myself. Things go smoother that way for me, lol.
@@SmittySmithsonite During the leak-down test you can direct air through a calibrated orifice that will give you the leak-down minimal allowance for the cylinder bore size you are testing. Since I only work on large bore Cylinder Engines I only utilize one standard sized master orifice. Just as a note, these readings are quite low. If you are using this as a guideline you are merely prolonging the agony of defeat and still have inherent problems. It is the allowable standard however. The only exception I have found to this is a worn out high time Engine where all the Cylinders are low yet equal across the board. Very rare to see this and not blowing oil/fuel past rings or high crankcase pressure pushing it past seals.
Very very informative video. I learned a lot on this one about recip engines and glad to see that the cold shock is just an old myth now. Another myth I would like to put to bed is that you cannot set a battery on bare concrete without something between the battery and the concrete. Yes you can set it on concrete - Unless that concrete (asphalt) has been in the sun in summer and it is very hot. Heat is your batteries main enemy.
OK, great information of the low compression, but there is no information on the outcome. What is being done to resolve the problem? Who will do the repair? I really feel like this is just half the story, like a commercial break when the bad guy shows up. I certainly hope there will be a part two or at least some future information. Excellent response by Superior. Really glad to see that. Thanks for sharing
Very educational video. Although I was curious about what you were meaning when you would talk about "eating the prop up" while doing a short field takeoff and holding the brakes
They mention looking at the POH a few times. Am I wrong here but the POH was printed when Cessna made this plane. With the way they make engines today shouldn't you follow the engine manufactures recommendations ? BTW...Great video on engine management.
One thing I would do is check for fuel getting into the oil. It sounds like you may have a situation of too rich on one cylinder. Unlikely on a turbocharged engine but you may have a bad injector causing washdown of oil on that number 4 cylinder. But I don't have nearly enough data to surmise that. It could also be something as simple as a burnt exhaust valve causing lower compression in that engine allowing the Rings to do more where to the cylinder and they would under proper pressure.
You have some great videos and I love how many experts come together to pass on their knowledge. In the future do you think you could set up some mics with some of the other people who talk a little softer? On some of the videos it's a little hard to hear them.
DO NOT BECOME A PROP PIZZA!! I literally grew up at the airport. My dad died when I was 8, therefore I was raised by many unsuspecting pilots and one "Top Sarge" crew chief( WW-II, Korea,ret.) airport manager. I got to see a line-boy get hit in the face by merely moving a prop out of the way. Bad P-lead. My AI was hit in the head during a comp check. Please, set the example by respecting the prop arc. I was giving a flight review with a '66 210, and the pilot moved the prop to put on the tow bar. The engine started. It had been sitting for a month. I had just arrived at the hangar in time to see it. Everybody lived. Three blade props will turn you into lasagna.
Good recommendations. Not a problem under the circumstances as all the Upper Spark Plugs were already removed during this video shoot. I take caution to a possible hot-prop anytime plugs are in or compression gauge is tied into the Cylinders. Similar story of A&P I knew doing compression check in Hangar at a local shop many years ago, sadly this left a life-long impression. If there were clips of the Compression Check earlier you would have seen me constantly reminding folks to stay clear anytime air pressure was applied. This is something that unless one has seen this1st hand it doesn't quite hit home.
@@cessnarigging I assumed the plugs were out. 'Seen too many weird things happen over a lifetime. Turn a master on, and the starter engaged. Selected the start switch to the left engine (FH-227) , and both props started to spin while on ground power. Ad nauseum. Rod Muchacho leaning on a prop during a photo shoot for one of his books. I had a flight attendant get blapped on the side of the after she followed a bag handler through a slowly windmilling prop on a Dash Trash. 17 stitchrs. Don't mind me. I usually don't go berserk very often. If I ever catch Rod on the ramp....
Fantastic discussion! Lifelong motorhead here that just recently fell in love with aviation. I'm a small engine, motorcycle, and automotive mechanic, so this stuff is right up my alley. Love learning new things! I've hardly sat in very many aircraft, let alone peeked under the hood of one. Lots of things I'm not familiar with in the aviation world, like the term "master orifice" - I asked John about this in another comment, so if you see this one first, John, don't bother answering both - just whichever one you happen to see first. I just want to know what that term is referring to - the tool, or the test itself, and if it's a leak down or compression test, since I've never heard this in all my years turning wrenches on ground-based equipment. I don't have any idea what it is, or what it means. Thanks in advance if you can take the time to answer this, John!👍🍻
This video is hot off the press. We're flying it right now.. decided to run it some more and do another test. John Efinger has a good string on this in the comments below.
When I saw the video posted of initial break-in I thought the fuel flows looked way too high. I figured they hadn't run SID97-3 yet. I thought for sure one of the pilots was going to pull back the mixture to get the EGTs up, but it sounded like they were happy with
Low 1200 EGT's is exactly where you want to see FF set up at full T/O power climb and yes all was calibrated at 2700 RPM & 36.5 MP SID97-3 has been superseded with current M&O. Calibration hasnt changed for TSIO-520-R however from original SID document.
@@cessnarigging You're right that the SID was incorporated into Publication M-0, and understanding that EGTs could be affected by many variables (timing, probe placement, etc.), it probably makes sense to just refer to Publication M-0 and Publication X30044 (TSIO-520 Series Operator's Manual). Of course the max fuel flow at Max Power (36.5"@2700rpm) would be 31.7 GPH per M-0 (I understand that the POH says 31.0 GPH or 186PPH). I actually prefer my engine to run a little rich too, maybe even >32gph so that I can still get 31gph on a very hot day, but this engine was way past that. Worse than being too rich at full throttle, if the pilot is running around set to "Full Rich" at partial power this motor is running well beyond the "Maximum Allowable Fuel Flow" as depicted on page 5-30 of Publication X30044. At this point of the flight ( czcams.com/video/lAnM2QnBQak/video.html ) the engine was running about 25% above "FULL RICH LIMITS" which is about 17% above "Maximum Allowable Fuel Flow". One final note: I also noticed that on T/O the MP never reached 36.5" which is required to make "Max Power" so the fuel flow should have been less than that specified in M-0 for Full Power. I can't be sure from my arm chair, but it might have something to do with @tom3holer 's comment.
@@yamashill I did go back and look at the video you linked to. I was the one flying the Acft in that segment and you see 35.4 MP with 2690 RPM & 34.4 GPH FF with 1255 TIT during my initial Climb. This was Summer day & didn't see OAT but know it was heat of TX Summer afternoon so additional Fuel utilized for cooling. The Fuel Flow vs Brake HP Chart you referenced in X30044 is based on an Engine leaned for "Best Power" that is generally around PEAK or just slightly (appx 25 DF or less) ROP-PEAK. This is not where one wants to break in new rings as EGT & CHT's would be at max limitations (roughly 400 DF CHT/1600 DF EGT' ranges) although CMA does no recognize EGT limitations. Cessna recognizes only Max TIT which was established for Turbo & Exhaust System limitations. As one might expect there are several factors that effect EGT-TIT and all parameters of Engine set-up need to be correct for proper Fuel Calibration including verification of Aircraft instrumentation. There was issue with APC as well and this has been corrected after that initial Video. As an A&P I only make recommendations, the Owner determines if the Aircraft is Airworthy outside the Annual time-frame which is when I verify condition of Airworthiness. I was unaware that APC needed adjustment until 2nd Take-Off with Oil Temps in operating limits. I also have the mindset that appx 2 GPH above top chart is what it takes to adequately cool the Engine in summer Op's. Anything above 4GPH and as someone else mentioned you start seeing a power decline. The 2-4 GPH above max FF for Summer Cooling was actually brought to my attention by the individual that was doing the initial re-write of SID 97-3 and tried to get that incorporated in its first release. Above the 4 GPH beyond top scale in Winter Op's and there is reduced Power curve thus why they opted to compromise in between an average temperature range is my belief. If Fuel Flow is found above spec during initial Take-Off after Top O.H that can be controlled easily with mixture knob and once Cylinders have some break-in time then adjusted once things stabilize. One doesn't want to do the Full Power Fuel Calibration procedure on the ramp with a brand new Engine or Cylinders unless there is inadequate Fuel Flow, that is another matter. Of course all of these TSIO-520 Engines in these installations can & will over-boost on 1st T/O by design without Pilot interaction to prevent this when going firewall fwd. Likely explains why I held MP at 35.4 on initial Take-Off as I was scanning more pertinent matters and had plenty of initial Climb performance.
Dan, what are your exact cruise settings ? My engine (same 1980 T210N but stock cylinders) is coming up for annual in July with around 300hrs since overhaul and I made a conscious decision to run it differently (à la Mike Busch) and it would be interesting to compare. For cruise, I keep MP top of green @30“, RPM 2400 or 2300 and do “the big mixture pull“ to 13.2 gal/h (=60% BHP) which would amount it to be set around 25° LOP on the cylinder that peaked last for smooth engine ops results a 20°F CHT reduction compared to ROP ops - my JPI GAMI Spread is between 0,3 gal/hr (above 8000ft) to 0,6 gal/hr in lower altitudes below or on hot days with ISA+20°C conditions. Slight engine roughness only starts to become noticeable @ around 0,5 gal/hr lower than the above mentiond FF setting. I loose around 7-8 KTAS by running LOP, but over time fuel savings of 3-4 g/hr on long cruise flights are substancial and combustion is a lot cleaner. This type of operation may be in contradiction of the T210N POH ( it just states you can set 6 lbs leaner below 70% BHP than book value, for a better fuel economy) but it is in no way in contradiction with the TCM operating manual for the TSIO520R.
Hi Pat-- when I run LOP, I run the same numbers you do. When I got these new cylinders, I was told not to do LOP during break in time, so run about 27-28" at 2350RPM ROP.
My throttle on My plane goes in more on the slow side ---- Not to baby the engine, rather, I have a castering nose wheel and I don't get rudder authority until I'm moving about 20 knots + So the throttle goes in about 20-30% above idle until the speed gets past 20K-G/S, then the throttle goes smoothly to the firewall. But even on other planes, I don't SLAM the throttle, but it goes in over a couple of seconds ....
Customer service like that is unusual and exceedingly rare especially these days when customer service is a 30 minute wait on hold to talk to a computer
Two separate "Calibrated" Compression Testers with built in M/O were utilized before Dan received a call about findings.. Compression readings identical. One or two Cylinders might have varied 1 PSIG between both readings. M/O reading itself varies with each tester. Without the record in front of me I can say the O-520's are generally around 40 PSIG @ M/O
I am curious how the sign off was made. If a retest of compressions cold got it above the 44 master orifice requirement technically you were good to go. IF you were not able to achieve the minimum required how do you fly "after" the annual to ops check a failed part?
Great episode! Learned a lot =) I'm not familiar with the terminology of "eating up the prop" if you are holding the brakes to get engine speed up before you launch on a short runway - could you explain what it is doing negatively to the prop?
Dan this is most concerning, our Fox Flying Club has a NTSB representative who spoke to us about some of his resent cases, one was about a 210 that crashed on it’s way east, it had an overhaul using Superior Pistons, one of the pistons lost it’s top from the ring up. All 6 occupants died. No conclusion was determined as to why the piston came apart. I will look for my notes on the tail number and forward that to you. This plane also had low hours after overhaul.
Look up Whyalla Airlines. They liked to excessively lean their engines. The result was not good however there is come controversy as to where this was the cause of the fatal crash. Happened back in 2000.
Still on the fence. IAW Continental Engine recommendations along with folks at Superior Air Parts they will run higher power settings briefly for a few hours and a retest. It is unlikely that at least one Cylinder does not get replaced but for right now the plan is fly & retest. There was an Annual to complete. At the time video was taken Holidays followed shortly thereafter so expect next few weeks we will be back on this again. When Acft returns a second compression test result will determine follow-up actions. The initial Borescope looked quite good and after I did a short Flight in the pattern to adjust APC I took another check on #4Cyl & the readings came up approx 2-3 PSIG from what I recall. We need to rule out Ring Gap alignment and pulling a Cylinder prematurely.
@@cessnarigging I would be interested in the following information. What were the actual original compression readings on each cylinder after initial installation and run-in? Secondly, if the new readings persist, I would be curious as to the root cause of the degradation. Not generalities, but actual determination. Although the level of service is "superior" (sorry! LOL), why did a cylinder degrade so quickly, if in fact it did? Finally, I would be interested in the oil analysis results. Just my thoughts if it were my engine.
@@JMOUC265 This is a high use Acft so previous Compression test was taken @ 83 hrs. #1 65 #2 70 #3 70 #4 64 #5 72 #6 74-75. generally I expect better readings however still a bit premature with new Cylinders to come to a firm conclusion. I discussed a 100 hr Inspection with the Owners not shown on that video for better trend tracking. I don't have the oil sample results however oil samples were taken & given to Owner after oil changes. Degradation is leakage past rings, that is for certain. Several other factors have been discussed such as oil usage, accurate topping off of oil, keeping belly clean to see amount of oil discharge etc. Monitoring several areas now that issues have been noted. Maintenance & Operators need to work out these type of issues by communicating throughout the process vs address problems during a single maintenance event.
@@cessnarigging Thanks, John. Like the Holiday Inn Express commercial, I am not an A&P, but … I have watched webinars by Mike Busch and listened to his podcasts and watched his videos regarding engine maintenance. They seem to make sense, especially his recommendations regarding oil analysis, engine data, and particular lubricant recommendations. Maybe the owners would be more receptive to your recommendations if they listened to some of Mike's ideas. Not trying to step on toes here, so please forgive me if I am. Again, I'm no A&P, but they appealed to my logic. Good luck.
My left butt cheek where my back pant pocket and wallet are clinched when I heard low compression... (remove $2000 from wallet). Those are low compression #'s. All mine mid to high 70's.
@@TakingOff ... not really... because if you don't determine the cause of the problem, you'll be in the same position 350 hours from now. No A&P here, but my guess is poor break-in (glazing) of the then-new cylinders.
While these readings are on the lower side of the spectrum for a low time engine, and had I spent the $$$$ these guys had I would be irked about it, everyone clutching their pearls about those numbers must have grown up on Lycomings. Big bore Continentals simply do not hold compressions like a Lycoming. It is not at all uncommon for a big bore Continental to have test numbers in the high 50s and lower 60s. Too many A/I’s yank perfectly good cylinders off of airplanes because “60/80”. Compression tests for Continentals are not the same as Lycomings. It is entirely possible for a cylinder to test in the 40s and still be airworthy (see Teledyne-Continental service bulletin SB03-3). Would I fly it? Probably not, but you get the point.
@@cessnarigging What? And I bet the End caps were to close to start with. Did you take the ring off the pistons and put them back in the cly and check the gaps. you need a lot of gap when install go to the max gap. your engine will be happy Never use the smaller gap never
@@ctsteve1967 Ring End Gaps were verified along with Rocker/Valve Lash during assembly. This was discussed somewhere else here regarding assembly checks. I believe this was discussed in this Video or the follow-up with SAP folks.
Great discussion about throttle application but it was ALL related to engjine-- Nothing about aircraft control.....2 potential issues with discussion of throttle application---- not so fast you give up rudder control for P factor and potential prop damage with FOD.--- all assuming oil temp is adequate! just my 2 cents---- Private Pilot, NOT an A&P/IA
Well, you’re not going to “tear up your brakes” when you’re not even rolling on a short field takeoff. Also, for cylinders with only 360 hrs on them, all compressions where shockingly low. It’s disappointing that you did not point out where the failure was (valves or rings). Certainly not a very good endorsement for Superior.
Ok, so several thoughts. Great news for you with the warranty if needed. For those who are unfamiliar, it should be mentioned that most of these type of compressions on a Lycoming would not be acceptable. There is not "Master Orifice" used for Lycomings. Along with that is a question is your engine developing rated horsepower with these compression readings? If not, how are you loading it, and takeoff distance required? The other thought is applying power at takeoff. Strictly my opinion, but the amount of wear on the brakes while sitting still would basically be none. Brake wear comes into play when you are moving the brake disc against the brake pads not sitting static. If there is loose debris at the end of the runway that can be pulled into the prop, notify the airport to remove, repair, or seal the runway. To get your mind the accelerate/stop distance, an easy way is somehow mark your exact touchdown point while landing, then measure to the point you are actually stopped. The speed that you touch down is going to be a little slower than speed at rotation, so keep in mind the stopping distance for an aborted takeoff could be longer. Now measure the distance needed for takeoff add the landing distance to it and see if 3300' is enough to accelerate and stop. Then while you are checking those figures Think about a turbo malfunctioning during the takeoff roll. Until you push that throttle way up you won't know if it is functioning to its capacity. I routinely operated a T210 from a 2800' runway. There was no way that I would release those brakes until the turbo reached it's maximum manifold pressure.
Another axiom is Sparky Imeson's teachings. If you don't have 70% of your takeoff speed by 50% of the runway, sumpin' might be amiss. He added another 20% distance for 4" grass and I'll have to look at my notes for the rest of his mountain flying teachings which work well for rule of thumb flat-landers. Great post.
Keep in mind this is a TSIO-520 so Turbo will produce as much power as you want. I have found single digit to teens for compression readings on more than a few Turbo 520's. I flew a T210 years ago doing a critical Altitude Check prior to the initial maintenance and found a Cylinder at 12/80. Still passed critical Altitude check to 18K with flying colors. Nothing out of the normal and didn't skip a beat. Here is an older Video Dan made with a friends T210 with an example of a dead Cylinder. Look at the Engine monitor, I had flown this Acft quite a few times and trips with our Wives on board! That was the 1st time I ever did a Compression check on that Engine and it was quite surprising to see those values. We knew there was a Valve in distress and you can see this on the Video with "comments". Without the EDM-930 there is no way one could tell operating the Aircraft there was an issue. Before Engine Monitors we either went to failure or found this during Annual Compression Check. czcams.com/video/kJXtLhJj6CY/video.html No doubt Lycoming Engines are a different breed. If I see low 70's or more than 3-4 PSIG variance between Cylinders generally there are issues developing. TCM Engines can stay there for 1000 hrs.
@@cessnarigging John I know you have knowledge of this only sharing for those who haven't gone into the process. A lot pilots rent, and therefore normally are not involved in the maintenance. Per Lycoming SB: Unless the pressure difference exceeds 15 psi the investigation should not necessarily mean removal of the cylinder....If the pressure reading is below 60 psi or if the wear rate increases rapidly, as indicated by appreciable decrease in cylinder pressure, removal and overhaul of the cylinders should be considered. Continental and Lycoming engine parts are all doing the same job, so what effects one does effect the other. It is interesting that Continental came up with the "Master Orifice" for diagnosing engine compression and Lycoming doesn't offer the same tool or guidelines. I will say that with the reduction in compression there will be a reduction in horsepower. Regardless if there is turbo. This is why on multi-engine aircraft the VMC is determined by "New engines at Sea Level". A safety factor gets built in overtime with the engines developing less horsepower, VMC actually decreases below Red Line, building in a safety margin. Also with the increase in Altitude normally aspirated engines make less horsepower, meaning VMC will be lower than Red Line.
@@blimpcommander1337 You are correct in both Engine manufacturers have set up guidelines for determining removals that fall into warranty department claims. Obviously this has been modified over the years to reduce the number of warranty claims not necessarily to benefit end user. Lycoming Engines have much lower parameters then Continental Motors when they start showing distress. You can see "the writing on the wall" well in advance before you get to the rejection state. I have spoken with several Engine Shops and been to various Engine stands with dyno set-ups including the Mobile facility this past summer. The consensus is that Engines will still produce rated HP with very low to no compression readings. This was discussed at CMI course where an Engine was operated without compression rings to simulate "low compression" and still produced rated T/O power. Mattituck had done similar testing as I know the individual that was over that testing program. I have heard 1st hand from several other Dyno operators similar stories.
17:07... full takeoff power for climb... no thanks set climb power. 17:55 reducing power doesn't make your engine run lean. WTF is he talking about. C182 POH normal climb 23" 2400 RPM. Max climb Full Throttle 2400 RPM. He made no sense.
Carbureted Engines, Note stated C182, Throttle enrichment valve utilized for full power climb. Reduce power and reduce Fuel Flow by removing the Enrichment Valve circuit. Most notable with the N/A 520 conversions however same goes for 0-470S & O-470-U with MA4-5 Carb. Save the reduced climb power for extended climb if flying at higher altitudes. 6-Pt Engine monitor would be quite revealing what power settings to operate.
@@gmcjetpilot The point was to utilize proper fuel management for cooling during high power application. Short Field T/O & obstacle clearance around this & many other parts of the country is SOP in General Aviation. If based at a Regional Airport with a singe engine Acft and 7k runway I would adjust for conditions.
@@gmcjetpilot The point was to utilize proper Fuel Flow for power application to assure adequate cooling of Cylinders. For the average single engine piston general aviation Aircraft SOP is short field and obstacle clearance. If I were operating off a 7K' long regional Airport I would adjust operating procedures for the environment & conditions.
@@cessnarigging John I get it. The point I was making using Climb power verses T/O Pwr does not hurt. The example in video was C182 normal aspirated, you A&P complains aircraft owners want climb power for climb. There's a disagreement. If the owner wants to pull the power back to climb power there's nothing wrong with that, especially if there is no rush to climb, climb is short, like a local flight test.. It also saves fuel cost. If you go to the T210N POH, you do need to pull it back to climb as you only have 5 min at T/O power. Based on T210N POH T/O - 2700 RPM, 36.5 in-hg, FF 156pph (5 MIN limit) CLIMB - 2500 RPM & 30.0 in-hg, FF 120pph It's OK to disagree on technique or have preferences. Be it using climb power to climb or being super slow making throttle changes that is a PIC call or A/C owner call.
@@cessnarigging The second point was how fast to set T/O power. Based on T210N POH T/O distance over 50ft obstacle: *A/C 4000 lb Weight* Press Alt SL, 10C deg, total Dist 2065 ft Press Alt SL, 40C deg, total Dist 2755 ft Press Alt 8000 ft., 40C deg, total Dist 4735 ft *A/C 3400 lb Weight* Press Alt SL, 10C deg, total Dist 1405 ft My point is 3500 ft runway in Texas is not short. Regardless short field or not, you should NOT delay or be super slow adding take off power. On the other hand always be smooth, never abrupt. *For short field bring power up at least to run up power with brakes on. Set T/O power smoothly as you release brakes. You should have full power, all green by mid T/O roll (500 feet roll).*
Very informative segment, thanks for getting these experts together and sharing real information with us.
Now that was a great video. I learned so much. As a low time pilot I love listening to stuff like this. Thanks
Very interesting video. Thanks to everyone that participated
Awesome video and great to see a company understand customer service. I will definitely keep superior in mind when my cylinders need to be replaced on my P210.
Dan, great discussion on cylinder management and addressing the old myths about shock cooling. Excellent info! Flight schools should teach this about the time a student is ready to take the PPL check ride.
good video but wow those are all terrible leak down readings for 363 hours STO.
@18:00 he suggest that a lean climb will damage the engine. This is not necessarily true. If you have leaned back to the proper lean-of-peak, out side of the red-fin and you monitor this as you climb (because mixture will get richer with altitude) and you monitor the CHT's then you should not cause any problems.
Really instructive. Thanks for putting this together.
Very good info, I recommend this info for all pilots and all airplanes.
I love this!!! So informative. Thanks
Great video, thanks. I'm going through this right now on my Arrow II so this is really helpfull
This is by far, one of your best videos, thank you for sharing. I punched my ticket last May, fly weekly, and am starting to work towards my instrument rating. I continue to binge watch aviation videos (my wife loves it :-( ) to glean as much information as I can. Thank you to you and all others who spend so much time compiling and thoughtfully sharing their aviation experiences
Could not say it better myself. Excellent video.
Just to update this video #4 Cylinder was covered under full warranty by SAP @ 394 hours TSN. This cylinder was the lowest leak-down reading as covered earlier in this series. Since this video the Aircraft has accumulated another 30+ hours and operated at higher power (75-80%) ROP settings on Mineral Oil for new cylinder break-in period. The latest leak-down results are very positive with #4 at 73/80 and improved readings overall. Only one Cylinder did not show any significant improvement so we will continue to monitor the situation and operate on mineral oil then take compression readings one more time.
Good update..thanks!
The one thing missing from the video is identification of the leak. It either leaks from the exhaust valve, or past the piston (rings), and it is really easy to hear whether the air goes into the exhaust or into the crankcase. Which was it?
From what you describe, it sounds like the rings on #4 were not seated properly, potentially pointing to ineffective run-in, but apparently the cylinders were not glazed.
I doubt that Superior gives that type of customer attention to every compression concern. I am glad that you received it, but maybe it is because of who you are and that it was going to be posted on your CZcams channel.
I think the close proximity may have had more to do with this
Honestly-- I get the feeling that if someone were to call, you'd get attention from them. I am close geo to them, so it certainly helped.
They knew they were going to be on CZcams!!!
For the rest of us, it’s “pilot error”…. maybe we need to start our own CZcams channels too! 🤨😂
Dan, you guys got off on an engine operation discussion and did not fully describe why you had low cylinder compression and what was done to address the issue.
Exactly. What was the outcome?
Ha, good point Tony! I got engrossed in the other discussion I forgot about that. So was it a faulty part, or improper installation Dan?
The plan is to run the engine for some more hours and do another hot compression check and see if we're seeing the numbers come up. If we still have problems, Superior might be replacing the cylinders. John Efinger has a good followup in the comments below.
... or improper break-in of the then-new cylinders??
@@TakingOff Superior replacing the cylinders (again) doesn't help you... unless you first determine what caused the problem. Since the compressions are rather poor on all 6 cylinders, my (non A&P) guess is improper break-in.
I would LOVE to hear Mike Busch’s opinion on this.
Very good information.
Thank you!
In my world of large highway Diesel engines, there is an issue in the winter of the engine not generating enough heat in the block and in the oil during extreme cold, say anything below -10°F. This can cause a lot of problems, and strangely part of the issue is the extreme efficiency of modern engines, not using enough fuel to generate sufficient thermal energy. Interesting that such things are also part of the piston aviation world. Great Video.👍
Very informative thank you
Dan, Great video, cant wait for the followup with the findings. I loved the fact that the cylinder manufacture came out and were going to 100% back their product, that's almost unheard of these days. I also like the fact that some old wives tales were put to rest. I would love to see more of these type of videos.
Thanks I learned a lot.
This was full of incredibly good info. As an A&P myself and pilot, these gentleman were on the spot. Wish more videos had these types of interviews and info. Did you get a failure analysis back on the failure of the cylinder?
Great video. Ignore the haters. Impressive customer service from Superior.
I'm not an aircraft mechanic but a certified motorcycle mechanic and an engine is an engine. You need the specs of that engine to know what the compression should be. Compression ratio of the engine is a major factor. I want to see at least 90 PSI for most motorcycles in a compression test with carb open or intake butterfly open. TBW would be different. If an engine fails compression test the next test is a leak down test. Could be as simple as a tight valve lash and the vavle lash needs adjusted.
"Could be as simple as a tight valve lash and the valve lash needs adjusted"
No, it couldn't be as valve lash and pushrod adjustment was accomplished during Cylinder installation. I write each reading with permanent marker in top flange of rocker cover face then take a picture to record readings L & R Engine sides as part of the Acft file. In addition that would cause leakage at valve-train not rings....
Aircraft are not like Motorcycles & Auto compression test. Leak-Down is the only approved means of compliance.
I graduated from MMI, Phoenix in December of '99 Joe. Can't believe 19 years went by so fast! These days I do more OPE (outdoor power equipment), and automotive work.
John, I've never heard the term "master orifice" in all my years of turning wrenches on ground-based equipment. 2 questions - is this referring to a leak down tester, or a compression tester, or is this just a term referring to the gauge set? Hope it doesn't take up too much of your time to answer this. Thanks!
@@SmittySmithsonite After the Army I also went to MMI in Phoenix and graduated in 1994 and took Honda and Yamaha. While working in a dealership I was sent to Arctic Cat and received my Cat Master certificate. While working I went to college for computer science, but I really hate coding. Harley Davidson opened a plant here and I applied for the line technician job which fixes any problems with the bike as it comes off the line before going to a dealership. Had three interviews and got the job. I was not Harley certified at the time and when asked about that I told them "A motorcycle is a motorcycle" I think I got the job mainly because I was a mechanic and went to college. I had to do audits on the motorcycles as they came off the line and work side by side with the engineers. I did more meetings then wrenching but it was a fun job. Now I"m in charge of a manufacturing plant that makes after-market parts for Harley. The only wrenching I do now is my own stuff and make custom motorcycles from time to time. I do have a custom bike I built in the Sturgis motorcycle museum. That's me a nutshell lol
@@joem5110 - Well thanks for your service, Joe! 👍🍻
You had way more drive than I did. I let life kick me in the ass many times and keep me down, most of it my own fault. Took me alot of years to "get it". Doing ok the past 17 years now, though. I like working for myself. Things go smoother that way for me, lol.
@@SmittySmithsonite During the leak-down test you can direct air through a calibrated orifice that will give you the leak-down minimal allowance for the cylinder bore size you are testing. Since I only work on large bore Cylinder Engines I only utilize one standard sized master orifice. Just as a note, these readings are quite low. If you are using this as a guideline you are merely prolonging the agony of defeat and still have inherent problems. It is the allowable standard however.
The only exception I have found to this is a worn out high time Engine where all the Cylinders are low yet equal across the board. Very rare to see this and not blowing oil/fuel past rings or high crankcase pressure pushing it past seals.
Very very informative video. I learned a lot on this one about recip engines and glad to see that the cold shock is just an old myth now.
Another myth I would like to put to bed is that you cannot set a battery on bare concrete without something between the battery and the concrete. Yes you can set it on concrete - Unless that concrete (asphalt) has been in the sun in summer and it is very hot. Heat is your batteries main enemy.
OK, great information of the low compression, but there is no information on the outcome.
What is being done to resolve the problem? Who will do the repair?
I really feel like this is just half the story, like a commercial break when the bad guy shows up.
I certainly hope there will be a part two or at least some future information.
Excellent response by Superior. Really glad to see that.
Thanks for sharing
We have no information yet because we haven't gotten that far. We'll test again soon and I'll do a followup. John does have some follow up below.
Very educational video. Although I was curious about what you were meaning when you would talk about "eating the prop up" while doing a short field takeoff and holding the brakes
He means that the prop will pick up rocks or other FOD, and be abrasive to the leading edge of it.
Just did a leak down test on my Rotax 912, with 2700 hr on it, all cylinders were around 130.
They mention looking at the POH a few times. Am I wrong here but the POH was printed when Cessna made this plane. With the way they make engines today shouldn't you follow the engine manufactures recommendations ? BTW...Great video on engine management.
Maybe--- is it still the original engine or has it been replaced--- not just field overhauled!
Oh my.. just a great bunch of charismatic and fun guys😂🤣😂. John E. Looks bored and bothered. Like, he’d rather be wrenching then talking.🤣😂🤣
Great video. I know compression testing can be unreliable, but I'm still curious why all your young-ish cylinders were that low.
Exactly. I want to know too.
Great video, thank you for making it. Will you let us know the final verdict from Superior?
I will!
Excellent, thanks.
One thing I would do is check for fuel getting into the oil. It sounds like you may have a situation of too rich on one cylinder. Unlikely on a turbocharged engine but you may have a bad injector causing washdown of oil on that number 4 cylinder. But I don't have nearly enough data to surmise that. It could also be something as simple as a burnt exhaust valve causing lower compression in that engine allowing the Rings to do more where to the cylinder and they would under proper pressure.
You have some great videos and I love how many experts come together to pass on their knowledge. In the future do you think you could set up some mics with some of the other people who talk a little softer? On some of the videos it's a little hard to hear them.
THat was a much earlier episode. We upped our audio game since then.
DO NOT BECOME A PROP PIZZA!! I literally grew up at the airport. My dad died when I was 8, therefore I was raised by many unsuspecting pilots and one "Top Sarge" crew chief( WW-II, Korea,ret.) airport manager. I got to see a line-boy get hit in the face by merely moving a prop out of the way. Bad P-lead. My AI was hit in the head during a comp check. Please, set the example by respecting the prop arc. I was giving a flight review with a '66 210, and the pilot moved the prop to put on the tow bar. The engine started. It had been sitting for a month. I had just arrived at the hangar in time to see it. Everybody lived. Three blade props will turn you into lasagna.
Good recommendations. Not a problem under the circumstances as all the Upper Spark Plugs were already removed during this video shoot. I take caution to a possible hot-prop anytime plugs are in or compression gauge is tied into the Cylinders. Similar story of A&P I knew doing compression check in Hangar at a local shop many years ago, sadly this left a life-long impression. If there were clips of the Compression Check earlier you would have seen me constantly reminding folks to stay clear anytime air pressure was applied. This is something that unless one has seen this1st hand it doesn't quite hit home.
@@cessnarigging I assumed the plugs were out. 'Seen too many weird things happen over a lifetime. Turn a master on, and the starter engaged. Selected the start switch to the left engine (FH-227) , and both props started to spin while on ground power. Ad nauseum. Rod Muchacho leaning on a prop during a photo shoot for one of his books. I had a flight attendant get blapped on the side of the after she followed a bag handler through a slowly windmilling prop on a Dash Trash. 17 stitchrs. Don't mind me. I usually don't go berserk very often. If I ever catch Rod on the ramp....
Fantastic discussion! Lifelong motorhead here that just recently fell in love with aviation. I'm a small engine, motorcycle, and automotive mechanic, so this stuff is right up my alley. Love learning new things! I've hardly sat in very many aircraft, let alone peeked under the hood of one.
Lots of things I'm not familiar with in the aviation world, like the term "master orifice" - I asked John about this in another comment, so if you see this one first, John, don't bother answering both - just whichever one you happen to see first. I just want to know what that term is referring to - the tool, or the test itself, and if it's a leak down or compression test, since I've never heard this in all my years turning wrenches on ground-based equipment. I don't have any idea what it is, or what it means. Thanks in advance if you can take the time to answer this, John!👍🍻
What has been the final outcome of the plane, what cylinders got repaired, what’s the new compressions now, etc?
This video is hot off the press. We're flying it right now.. decided to run it some more and do another test. John Efinger has a good string on this in the comments below.
When I saw the video posted of initial break-in I thought the fuel flows looked way too high. I figured they hadn't run SID97-3 yet. I thought for sure one of the pilots was going to pull back the mixture to get the EGTs up, but it sounded like they were happy with
I thought that also. Running that rich will also cause a loss of rated power.
Low 1200 EGT's is exactly where you want to see FF set up at full T/O power climb and yes all was calibrated at 2700 RPM & 36.5 MP
SID97-3 has been superseded with current M&O. Calibration hasnt changed for TSIO-520-R however from original SID document.
@@cessnarigging You're right that the SID was incorporated into Publication M-0, and understanding that EGTs could be affected by many variables (timing, probe placement, etc.), it probably makes sense to just refer to Publication M-0 and Publication X30044 (TSIO-520 Series Operator's Manual). Of course the max fuel flow at Max Power (36.5"@2700rpm) would be 31.7 GPH per M-0 (I understand that the POH says 31.0 GPH or 186PPH). I actually prefer my engine to run a little rich too, maybe even >32gph so that I can still get 31gph on a very hot day, but this engine was way past that. Worse than being too rich at full throttle, if the pilot is running around set to "Full Rich" at partial power this motor is running well beyond the "Maximum Allowable Fuel Flow" as depicted on page 5-30 of Publication X30044. At this point of the flight ( czcams.com/video/lAnM2QnBQak/video.html ) the engine was running about 25% above "FULL RICH LIMITS" which is about 17% above "Maximum Allowable Fuel Flow". One final note: I also noticed that on T/O the MP never reached 36.5" which is required to make "Max Power" so the fuel flow should have been less than that specified in M-0 for Full Power. I can't be sure from my arm chair, but it might have something to do with @tom3holer 's comment.
@@yamashill I did go back and look at the video you linked to. I was the one flying the Acft in that segment and you see 35.4 MP with 2690 RPM & 34.4 GPH FF with 1255 TIT during my initial Climb. This was Summer day & didn't see OAT but know it was heat of TX Summer afternoon so additional Fuel utilized for cooling. The Fuel Flow vs Brake HP Chart you referenced in X30044 is based on an Engine leaned for "Best Power" that is generally around PEAK or just slightly (appx 25 DF or less) ROP-PEAK. This is not where one wants to break in new rings as EGT & CHT's would be at max limitations (roughly 400 DF CHT/1600 DF EGT' ranges) although CMA does no recognize EGT limitations. Cessna recognizes only Max TIT which was established for Turbo & Exhaust System limitations. As one might expect there are several factors that effect EGT-TIT and all parameters of Engine set-up need to be correct for proper Fuel Calibration including verification of Aircraft instrumentation. There was issue with APC as well and this has been corrected after that initial Video. As an A&P I only make recommendations, the Owner determines if the Aircraft is Airworthy outside the Annual time-frame which is when I verify condition of Airworthiness. I was unaware that APC needed adjustment until 2nd Take-Off with Oil Temps in operating limits.
I also have the mindset that appx 2 GPH above top chart is what it takes to adequately cool the Engine in summer Op's. Anything above 4GPH and as someone else mentioned you start seeing a power decline. The 2-4 GPH above max FF for Summer Cooling was actually brought to my attention by the individual that was doing the initial re-write of SID 97-3 and tried to get that incorporated in its first release. Above the 4 GPH beyond top scale in Winter Op's and there is reduced Power curve thus why they opted to compromise in between an average temperature range is my belief. If Fuel Flow is found above spec during initial Take-Off after Top O.H that can be controlled easily with mixture knob and once Cylinders have some break-in time then adjusted once things stabilize. One doesn't want to do the Full Power Fuel Calibration procedure on the ramp with a brand new Engine or Cylinders unless there is inadequate Fuel Flow, that is another matter.
Of course all of these TSIO-520 Engines in these installations can & will over-boost on 1st T/O by design without Pilot interaction to prevent this when going firewall fwd. Likely explains why I held MP at 35.4 on initial Take-Off as I was scanning more pertinent matters and had plenty of initial Climb performance.
Dan, what are your exact cruise settings ? My engine (same 1980 T210N but stock cylinders) is coming up for annual in July with around 300hrs since overhaul and I made a conscious decision to run it differently (à la Mike Busch) and it would be interesting to compare. For cruise, I keep MP top of green @30“, RPM 2400 or 2300 and do “the big mixture pull“ to 13.2 gal/h (=60% BHP) which would amount it to be set around 25° LOP on the cylinder that peaked last for smooth engine ops results a 20°F CHT reduction compared to ROP ops - my JPI GAMI Spread is between 0,3 gal/hr (above 8000ft) to 0,6 gal/hr in lower altitudes below or on hot days with ISA+20°C conditions. Slight engine roughness only starts to become noticeable @ around 0,5 gal/hr lower than the above mentiond FF setting. I loose around 7-8 KTAS by running LOP, but over time fuel savings of 3-4 g/hr on long cruise flights are substancial and combustion is a lot cleaner. This type of operation may be in contradiction of the T210N POH ( it just states you can set 6 lbs leaner below 70% BHP than book value, for a better fuel economy) but it is in no way in contradiction with the TCM operating manual for the TSIO520R.
Hi Pat-- when I run LOP, I run the same numbers you do. When I got these new cylinders, I was told not to do LOP during break in time, so run about 27-28" at 2350RPM ROP.
Thanks Dan for your response! Yes, for break-in you do want to stay ROP for sure.
My throttle on My plane goes in more on the slow side ---- Not to baby the engine, rather, I have a castering nose wheel and I don't get rudder authority until I'm moving about 20 knots +
So the throttle goes in about 20-30% above idle until the speed gets past 20K-G/S, then the throttle goes smoothly to the firewall. But even on other planes, I don't SLAM the throttle, but it goes in over a couple of seconds ....
What were the results of the compression test after flying it for the prescribed time in the continental service bulletin?
Still too low, so Superior replaced the cylinder and paid for the install.
Customer service like that is unusual and exceedingly rare especially these days when customer service is a 30 minute wait on hold to talk to a computer
Dan, do you run ROP or LOP?
On these cylinders, almost all ROP. For breaking in, I didn't run LOP.
What is a master orifice leak limit? Are you not doing an 80 psi leak down test like always?
Two separate "Calibrated" Compression Testers with built in M/O were utilized before Dan received a call about findings.. Compression readings identical. One or two Cylinders might have varied 1 PSIG between both readings. M/O reading itself varies with each tester. Without the record in front of me I can say the O-520's are generally around 40 PSIG @ M/O
I am curious how the sign off was made. If a retest of compressions cold got it above the 44 master orifice requirement technically you were good to go. IF you were not able to achieve the minimum required how do you fly "after" the annual to ops check a failed part?
so ,,, what was the problem ,,,, ??????? did all the hot air you guys talked over the engine either help the diagnosis or fix it .
Great episode! Learned a lot =) I'm not familiar with the terminology of "eating up the prop" if you are holding the brakes to get engine speed up before you launch on a short runway - could you explain what it is doing negatively to the prop?
My guess is that it's kicking up sand and grit while it's spinning in place.
I understand you have about 360 hours STOH. How many months have passed since your top overhaul
17 months
I'm sure the fact that they are on camera has nothing to do with the warranty response 😉
Looking forward the the autopsy report on #4
So why was the compression low?
We're not sure at this point.
Dan this is most concerning, our Fox Flying Club has a NTSB representative who spoke to us about some of his resent cases, one was about a 210 that crashed on it’s way east, it had an overhaul using Superior Pistons, one of the pistons lost it’s top from the ring up. All 6 occupants died. No conclusion was determined as to why the piston came apart. I will look for my notes on the tail number and forward that to you. This plane also had low hours after overhaul.
Do let me know what you find. There’s so many components involved, it can take awhile to find the culprit. I don’t want to rush to judgment.
Taking Off ,okay i will, we appreciate your helping us and are happy to pass along anything we find out.
Look up Whyalla Airlines. They liked to excessively lean their engines. The result was not good however there is come controversy as to where this was the cause of the fatal crash. Happened back in 2000.
so what was the outcome?
Still on the fence. IAW Continental Engine recommendations along with folks at Superior Air Parts they will run higher power settings briefly for a few hours and a retest. It is unlikely that at least one Cylinder does not get replaced but for right now the plan is fly & retest. There was an Annual to complete. At the time video was taken Holidays followed shortly thereafter so expect next few weeks we will be back on this again. When Acft returns a second compression test result will determine follow-up actions. The initial Borescope looked quite good and after I did a short Flight in the pattern to adjust APC I took another check on #4Cyl & the readings came up approx 2-3 PSIG from what I recall. We need to rule out Ring Gap alignment and pulling a Cylinder prematurely.
@@cessnarigging I would be interested in the following information. What were the actual original compression readings on each cylinder after initial installation and run-in? Secondly, if the new readings persist, I would be curious as to the root cause of the degradation. Not generalities, but actual determination. Although the level of service is "superior" (sorry! LOL), why did a cylinder degrade so quickly, if in fact it did? Finally, I would be interested in the oil analysis results. Just my thoughts if it were my engine.
@@JMOUC265 This is a high use Acft so previous Compression test was taken @ 83 hrs. #1 65 #2 70 #3 70 #4 64 #5 72 #6 74-75. generally I expect better readings however still a bit premature with new Cylinders to come to a firm conclusion. I discussed a 100 hr Inspection with the Owners not shown on that video for better trend tracking. I don't have the oil sample results however oil samples were taken & given to Owner after oil changes. Degradation is leakage past rings, that is for certain. Several other factors have been discussed such as oil usage, accurate topping off of oil, keeping belly clean to see amount of oil discharge etc. Monitoring several areas now that issues have been noted. Maintenance & Operators need to work out these type of issues by communicating throughout the process vs address problems during a single maintenance event.
@@cessnarigging Thanks, John. Like the Holiday Inn Express commercial, I am not an A&P, but … I have watched webinars by Mike Busch and listened to his podcasts and watched his videos regarding engine maintenance. They seem to make sense, especially his recommendations regarding oil analysis, engine data, and particular lubricant recommendations. Maybe the owners would be more receptive to your recommendations if they listened to some of Mike's ideas. Not trying to step on toes here, so please forgive me if I am. Again, I'm no A&P, but they appealed to my logic. Good luck.
My left butt cheek where my back pant pocket and wallet are clinched when I heard low compression... (remove $2000 from wallet). Those are low compression #'s. All mine mid to high 70's.
How was the butt cheek when you hear Superior say they'd cover parts AND labor? I know mine unclinched. LOL
@@TakingOff ... not really... because if you don't determine the cause of the problem, you'll be in the same position 350 hours from now. No A&P here, but my guess is poor break-in (glazing) of the then-new cylinders.
Just dealt with a low superior cylinder on my 0-300. This is the second time in the last 2 annuals. I think I'll give them a call. Under 300 hours...
I would. They're good people and even though this video is about a problem... I believe their cylinders are top notch.
While these readings are on the lower side of the spectrum for a low time engine, and had I spent the $$$$ these guys had I would be irked about it, everyone clutching their pearls about those numbers must have grown up on Lycomings.
Big bore Continentals simply do not hold compressions like a Lycoming. It is not at all uncommon for a big bore Continental to have test numbers in the high 50s and lower 60s. Too many A/I’s yank perfectly good cylinders off of airplanes because “60/80”.
Compression tests for Continentals are not the same as Lycomings. It is entirely possible for a cylinder to test in the 40s and still be airworthy (see Teledyne-Continental service bulletin SB03-3). Would I fly it? Probably not, but you get the point.
As of today don’t see John Effinger’s comments. Also, no mention of where the loss of air was going (past rings or a valve).
His comments are down there still. Just checked. We don’t know yet where the loss is. Will do a follow up when we check next
It was all Rings across the board. Borescope revealed proper burn-heat control on Valve faces.
@@cessnarigging What? And I bet the End caps were to close to start with. Did you take the ring off the pistons and put them back in the cly and check the gaps. you need a lot of gap when install go to the max gap. your engine will be happy Never use the smaller gap never
@@ctsteve1967 Ring End Gaps were verified along with Rocker/Valve Lash during assembly. This was discussed somewhere else here regarding assembly checks. I believe this was discussed in this Video or the follow-up with SAP folks.
Great discussion about throttle application but it was ALL related to engjine-- Nothing about aircraft control.....2 potential issues with discussion of throttle application---- not so fast you give up rudder control for P factor and potential prop damage with FOD.--- all assuming oil temp is adequate! just my 2 cents---- Private Pilot, NOT an A&P/IA
I'm still waiting to hear what the problem with #4 was.
We don't know yet.
I'd say all 6 compressions were rather poor.
Modern metallurgy, 70+ year old design.
Well, you’re not going to “tear up your brakes” when you’re not even rolling on a short field takeoff.
Also, for cylinders with only 360 hrs on them, all compressions where shockingly low. It’s disappointing that you did not point out where the failure was (valves or rings). Certainly not a very good endorsement for Superior.
Please check out my reply to you down below.
Ok, so several thoughts. Great news for you with the warranty if needed. For those who are unfamiliar, it should be mentioned that most of these type of compressions on a Lycoming would not be acceptable. There is not "Master Orifice" used for Lycomings. Along with that is a question is your engine developing rated horsepower with these compression readings? If not, how are you loading it, and takeoff distance required? The other thought is applying power at takeoff. Strictly my opinion, but the amount of wear on the brakes while sitting still would basically be none. Brake wear comes into play when you are moving the brake disc against the brake pads not sitting static. If there is loose debris at the end of the runway that can be pulled into the prop, notify the airport to remove, repair, or seal the runway. To get your mind the accelerate/stop distance, an easy way is somehow mark your exact touchdown point while landing, then measure to the point you are actually stopped. The speed that you touch down is going to be a little slower than speed at rotation, so keep in mind the stopping distance for an aborted takeoff could be longer. Now measure the distance needed for takeoff add the landing distance to it and see if 3300' is enough to accelerate and stop. Then while you are checking those figures Think about a turbo malfunctioning during the takeoff roll. Until you push that throttle way up you won't know if it is functioning to its capacity. I routinely operated a T210 from a 2800' runway. There was no way that I would release those brakes until the turbo reached it's maximum manifold pressure.
Another axiom is Sparky Imeson's teachings. If you don't have 70% of your takeoff speed by 50% of the runway, sumpin' might be amiss. He added another 20% distance for 4" grass and I'll have to look at my notes for the rest of his mountain flying teachings which work well for rule of thumb flat-landers. Great post.
Keep in mind this is a TSIO-520 so Turbo will produce as much power as you want. I have found single digit to teens for compression readings on more than a few Turbo 520's. I flew a T210 years ago doing a critical Altitude Check prior to the initial maintenance and found a Cylinder at 12/80. Still passed critical Altitude check to 18K with flying colors. Nothing out of the normal and didn't skip a beat.
Here is an older Video Dan made with a friends T210 with an example of a dead Cylinder. Look at the Engine monitor, I had flown this Acft quite a few times and trips with our Wives on board! That was the 1st time I ever did a Compression check on that Engine and it was quite surprising to see those values. We knew there was a Valve in distress and you can see this on the Video with "comments". Without the EDM-930 there is no way one could tell operating the Aircraft there was an issue. Before Engine Monitors we either went to failure or found this during Annual Compression Check. czcams.com/video/kJXtLhJj6CY/video.html
No doubt Lycoming Engines are a different breed. If I see low 70's or more than 3-4 PSIG variance between Cylinders generally there are issues developing. TCM Engines can stay there for 1000 hrs.
@@cessnarigging John I know you have knowledge of this only sharing for those who haven't gone into the process. A lot pilots rent, and therefore normally are not involved in the maintenance. Per Lycoming SB: Unless the pressure difference exceeds 15 psi the investigation should not necessarily mean removal of the cylinder....If the pressure reading is below 60 psi or if the wear rate increases
rapidly, as indicated by appreciable decrease in cylinder pressure, removal and overhaul of the cylinders should be considered.
Continental and Lycoming engine parts are all doing the same job, so what effects one does effect the other. It is interesting that Continental came up with the "Master Orifice" for diagnosing engine compression and Lycoming doesn't offer the same tool or guidelines.
I will say that with the reduction in compression there will be a reduction in horsepower. Regardless if there is turbo. This is why on multi-engine aircraft the VMC is determined by "New engines at Sea Level". A safety factor gets built in overtime with the engines developing less horsepower, VMC actually decreases below Red Line, building in a safety margin. Also with the increase in Altitude normally aspirated engines make less horsepower, meaning VMC will be lower than Red Line.
@@blimpcommander1337 You are correct in both Engine manufacturers have set up guidelines for determining removals that fall into warranty department claims. Obviously this has been modified over the years to reduce the number of warranty claims not necessarily to benefit end user. Lycoming Engines have much lower parameters then Continental Motors when they start showing distress. You can see "the writing on the wall" well in advance before you get to the rejection state.
I have spoken with several Engine Shops and been to various Engine stands with dyno set-ups including the Mobile facility this past summer. The consensus is that Engines will still produce rated HP with very low to no compression readings. This was discussed at CMI course where an Engine was operated without compression rings to simulate "low compression" and still produced rated T/O power. Mattituck had done similar testing as I know the individual that was over that testing program. I have heard 1st hand from several other Dyno operators similar stories.
17:07... full takeoff power for climb... no thanks set climb power. 17:55 reducing power doesn't make your engine run lean. WTF is he talking about. C182 POH normal climb 23" 2400 RPM. Max climb Full Throttle 2400 RPM. He made no sense.
Carbureted Engines, Note stated C182, Throttle enrichment valve utilized for full power climb. Reduce power and reduce Fuel Flow by removing the Enrichment Valve circuit. Most notable with the N/A 520 conversions however same goes for 0-470S & O-470-U with MA4-5 Carb. Save the reduced climb power for extended climb if flying at higher altitudes. 6-Pt Engine monitor would be quite revealing what power settings to operate.
@@gmcjetpilot The point was to utilize proper fuel management for cooling during high power application. Short Field T/O & obstacle clearance around this & many other parts of the country is SOP in General Aviation. If based at a Regional Airport with a singe engine Acft and 7k runway I would adjust for conditions.
@@gmcjetpilot The point was to utilize proper Fuel Flow for power application to assure adequate cooling of Cylinders. For the average single engine piston general aviation Aircraft SOP is short field and obstacle clearance. If I were operating off a 7K' long regional Airport I would adjust operating procedures for the environment & conditions.
@@cessnarigging John I get it. The point I was making using Climb power verses T/O Pwr does not hurt. The example in video was C182 normal aspirated, you A&P complains aircraft owners want climb power for climb. There's a disagreement. If the owner wants to pull the power back to climb power there's nothing wrong with that, especially if there is no rush to climb, climb is short, like a local flight test.. It also saves fuel cost.
If you go to the T210N POH, you do need to pull it back to climb as you only have 5 min at T/O power. Based on T210N POH
T/O - 2700 RPM, 36.5 in-hg, FF 156pph (5 MIN limit)
CLIMB - 2500 RPM & 30.0 in-hg, FF 120pph
It's OK to disagree on technique or have preferences. Be it using climb power to climb or being super slow making throttle changes that is a PIC call or A/C owner call.
@@cessnarigging The second point was how fast to set T/O power. Based on T210N POH T/O distance over 50ft obstacle:
*A/C 4000 lb Weight*
Press Alt SL, 10C deg, total Dist 2065 ft
Press Alt SL, 40C deg, total Dist 2755 ft
Press Alt 8000 ft., 40C deg, total Dist 4735 ft
*A/C 3400 lb Weight*
Press Alt SL, 10C deg, total Dist 1405 ft
My point is 3500 ft runway in Texas is not short. Regardless short field or not, you should NOT delay or be super slow adding take off power. On the other hand always be smooth, never abrupt. *For short field bring power up at least to run up power with brakes on. Set T/O power smoothly as you release brakes. You should have full power, all green by mid T/O roll (500 feet roll).*
Its gotta to be one of the corniest episodes ever...lost focus of the topic. Went from cylinder failure to throttle..
Don't waste your time on this 24 minute commercial !!