Go problems: how to restore a Go board and game set? (Goban, stones, and bowls)
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- čas přidán 3. 08. 2024
- A discussion about the game of Go, with a focus on some potential ways to improve the parts of an old set, including: shell and slate stones, turned bowls, and a Goban. This set has found its way here from mid-20th century Japan, so it was quite a find! It also has problems. I want to restore it as much as possible, but I want to invest an appropriate amount of myself in doing so. This video provides a brief overview of the game, thinks out loud about what could be done to improve it, and then asks your opinion about how far to take it.
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Music:
"Silver Flame" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License
creativecommons.org/licenses/b... - Jak na to + styl
For the grid they should be spaced 22 mm apart left to right and 23.7 mm apart top to bottom. A Go board is not meant to be square. When seated in front of a square board, it would look wider than tall. Therefore, for reasons of perspective, they are longer in the direction from one player to the other than from left to right.
I discuss perspective at 21:05.
As for the grid spacing, it's about 21mm x 23 mm.
Wow, that's a rather specific but brilliant design choice.
Age has taught me not to become emotionally attached to "things". My advice to you is to sell it to someone who will appreciate it for what it is and who believes that the dings and flaws give it character. Then build one for yourself in the same style while correcting the design flaws of the original.
I second that!
one thing i know for certain is that people love watching old things restored to a more beatiful state
Agreed. I have a wood shop, so I could make a sweet board with a beautiful finish, but I would prefer to have a restored board that has a long history.
There's just a permanence to an object that appeals to me. I think it's the fact that the guy who made the board is long gone, and after I restore it, I'll end up long gone- and someone else will become part of the chain!
We're all links to the past. So in a way, it's selfish to produce _new_ as if you were the first one here.
wow, wish I'd found this second channel sooner. if this is an old original set, both the bowls and the board will be cut from Kaya, a very traditional wood for this. This is because it is resistant to temperature and humidity changes (which is also the purpose of that unfinished pyramid in the bottom. It stops the board from cracking as it shrinks) reacts well with the oils in your skin, and has a wonderful sound when the stones are set on it. also, fun fact, the bowls and their respective lids are always cut from the same piece of wood so that the grains will line up if turned the right way. Unfortunately kaya is difficult to find and quite expensive, especially in solid pieces like this (this board is probably valued at over $1000) so really the best restoration you can do is to clean it and maybe rub some oil on it. Traditional boards are treated with an almost religious sanctity, so altering it in any way is kind of taboo.
I would recommend you build your own with modern materials (maybe get some marble stones like we discussed ;)
Also, DO NOT firmly set the legs. They are designed to be removable. This is so that you can play seated on the floor with the legs, or seated at a table without them. DO NOT permanently set the legs of the board.
Modern curators don't restore, they preserve. I imagine they'd clean everything, perhaps fix the shellac without stripping it off, but do nothing to the board except perhaps oiling it and stabilize the grid if needed (something acid free like rice glue?) Anything more would result in an an anachronistic object, because it would represent the efforts of two completely unrelated artists.
But I can relate to your more... visceral need for what others might call perfection, but which i think of as correctness and consistency. My suggestion for the board is you clean it, then you study it. Figure out how to *recreate* it. Then make your own board. Place whatever requirements and constraints on yourself that please or challenge you (e.g. only hand tools, only period appropriate tools, or any tool I that get the job done, etc.) Be completely faithful to the orignal design, or make your own improvements. Then you'll have a board that satisfies your anxieties, while preserving a historic art object besides.
Ok, strap in.
Your point about causing an "anachronistic object" is well made. It reminded me of that episode of TNG where Picard was slightly out of... phase. I have very much the same feeling, but let's both consider the following. There is good reason for at least for a certain amount of intervention.
Wood creations are, by their nature, impermanent. They require a certain amount of maintenance in order that they might keep their form. More that a half-decade of neglect has robbed this piece of its color, sheen, shape, and beauty; what we now see is _not_ what the artisan had once intended. To honor that intention to its maximum possible extent, my role is to be as faithful as possible in keeping that original idea in place. An appropriate amount of restoration *is* true preservation. To be like the traditional 'preservationist' (that is, to _do no harm_ only, but to do no good either), is to only stand by idly and witness a slow destruction of the object. And while this inaction can be easily rationalized by a love for 'authenticity,' in reality the board rusts away into an ugly old rotten block as we watch. Yet the idea remains inside of the object, as new as ever- but now slated with a rotten husk that's an obvious mismatch.
Some of the procedures discussed in this video were radical alterations that would be aimed at making an old board new again. I can't believe that this would reduce its value; it would have a new life aesthetically. Empirically, I would be able to resell it at 4x the price, and at 1000x what I paid for it. However, there are far less invasive maintenances that could still preserve the original idea without being a ridiculous purist. For example, a light sanding and re-shellac of all wooden surfaces, and a clean/oil of the stones. Finding the appropriate balance here is our goal, I think.
Now to context: objects have purpose.
My Grandpap, long dead, was a carpenter. One of his old planes found its way to my shop. As an homage to him, I let it sit with the other tools in its pure form, like a rusted and busted trophy. After about four or five years, I thought, _my Grandpap would think that's stupid._ I mean, why would a carpenter keep a plane that he doesn't use? I sandblasted the damned thing, oiled it, and now I use it all the time. Which way would he want it?
Which way would you, once you're gone?
Yes. This is right and good. I have some old tools in my collection, favorite tools, restored to functionality if not beauty, because I believe that a restaurant wall is no place for a good tool to hang.
"To be like the traditional 'preservationist', is to only stand by idly and witness a slow destruction of the object."
FUCK. YES.
I think that I would set the original board aside to maintain its authenticity and make a new board out of 'modern' materials of the correct proportions. You save the value of the vintage finish etc., but still can use it without aggravation.
That is an amazing piece of work. I believe the entire set has been handmade and given its age it is in good shape. I know there is some damage as you well pointed out but man, it sure is good looking.
Not sure if its an option, but could the "board" be re-hydrated slightly to allow some expansion?
Thanks for sharing this remarkable find...
Man, I've wanted to make one of these boards for a while now. You got a rippin' deal! These are currently selling for over $700.00 on eBay. I have four 16' Western Red Cedar logs in my backyard. I harvested them from an urban lot during the construction of a triplex earlier this year. I also have what was left of the stump. It's about 36" in diameter and 4' long. I should be able to pull a couple boards out of it.
"So lets find out in real time..."
Joke's on you, I always watch everything at 2x speed because I don't have time to enjoy things!
My brain just broke, thinking of all the time I have wasted. Do the commercials play 2x too? Because these midstream ads can go to hell.
Awesome Pocket! Love the close-up with the handling of the pieces.
Don't touch the stones. Resurface the top, and re-do the grid, stretching it in both directions to enlarge the grid out the the edges. Perhaps use the entire surface for the grid, and add a margin by adding four side trim pieces? The outside of the grid might even disguise the join between the board and the trim.
Wow, that would look great! It would be pretty non-traditional, though. Nice idea.
My thinking exactly. Perhaps even a contrasting trim piece? The outside trim pieces would also take care of the dings and chew marks on the corners. Anything but trimming the piece diameters. That would be a horror show.
I had thought the same thing and it would mirror what you did with the ply would edging in your last shot. Although if you did a lighter wood you might (I say might this could also look totally awful) be able to create a design feature that also allowed for a tea space for the additional line spacing you need.
Same thought as Bob ... but i am wondering if adding side trim pieces would not denature the set!?
My suggestion might kick-in some people's OCD... but having different margin widths is it a big problem?
Also, Pocket, I am not sure if Go is THE most old game ever... there is also the "Game of Ur"... Tom Scott made a video about it and how to play it... when I watched that video, I thought: Pocket would love to play this... and if he could make one of these, it would look awesome! I hope you can check it out
Cheers
I came here to say the same thing.
Pocket. What a wonderful find! Congratulations.
In one of your videos you said you thought your water was acidic because it easily removed the glue on the back of those marble tiles. If you still think this, I would caution against using this water with the shell pieces, acid is bad for shells, that's why ocean acidity is such a problem for coral reefs.
Just my thoughts, i'd look into making sure the water you use won't react with or dissolve the pieces if I were you.
Good point. I'll use distilled water.
But my tap water is only _slightly_ acidic! In fairness, most water usually is, simply because it will readily absorb atmospheric CO₂.
A tiny bit of baking soda might be a good idea as well, even if you are using distilled water.
Sometimes i think i enjoy this channel more than your main channel.
I did some really rough sketches in illustrator to visualize the problem of the pieces not spacing properly, and it seems like in order to make them fit, the grid would basically have to be the same dimension as the board itself, which I can't imagine would work very well. An option could be to add a half inch of trim on each side and repaint a larger grid. This would also give you the option of fixing/hiding the damaged corner, but at the cost of losing some of its authenticity.
Otherwise building a lathe jig to sandwich the pieces between the chuck and tailstock could allow for quick, repeatable sanding/grinding to get them to a size that would fit. Based on my rough sketch, the pieces would have to be roughly 20mm.
I'm sure other commenters/you will have some better ideas. Anyway, I'm excited to see the board once you've finished restoring it!
that bump on the bottom of the wood affects the accoustics of the stones when played. It's said to add a bit more of a snap when played on.
Not what I heard. It's for moisture to escape from the wood.
I did some reading on cleaning up shell. It looks like you can soak them in water to remove any dirt, and then a light mineral oil should be all you need to get them looking new. Some people use bleach or toothpaste (weaker alternative to bleach), but that's up to you. Hopefully this helps a little.
yikes, bleach is an acid and will eat away at them instantly and will destroy the patina and the shine...
Luke Arts thats why I said its up to him. I wouldnt personally, seems like a terrible idea. But appaerntly people do it. I can see toothpase working though since its a mild abrasive.
Luke Arts - the pH of bleach is above 12. It’s about as far from being an acid as you can be
I didnt realize he said acid, I thought he said base. Im legitimately upset I missed that XD
Jim, I don't know what universe you are living in and how chemistry works there, but in mine, bleach contains Cl- (aqueous solution) and is very acidic.
edit: it's Sodium Hypochlorite for the Americans among you, Natrium Hypochlorite for the people who use metric systems. So basically a salt, which consists of a metal (Na+) and an acid group (ClO-). It is known for its corrosiveness.
In any case, where I live, calcium containing materials are very common in our homes (marble, slate, blue stone,... we export it like crazy because it's so common and relatively cheap here) and as a kid we already learn not to use bleach on those materials because it will foam, eat away at it and remove all shine.
Thank you for reminding me about Go
When you repaint the grid, paint it with correct dimensions and leave the margins around the grid un-equal across the four sides.
Hey pocket, good to see a video. You're my version of asmr, haha. I really particularly liked how you left the shavings in. If you were to take it and have it planed, that would be lost.
See if you can resize the grid when you redo it to compensate for the cumulative error. Looking forward to seeing how this project continues.
after flattening, I'd consider adding a thick veneer for the top to make a properly sized playing surface. Could also put a veneer on the sides. That would mean you don't need to remove the puppy marks, too.
Thats a good find! Well done.
I would consider re-gridding the board in a way to keep the 19x19 board... In order to get that add a strip wood to the sides of the board if needed. Just a thought.
i'm a jeweler, and i just wanna say - don't put the shell in hydrogen peroxide (or bleach)! it'll eat at and pit the surface. leaving them in for too long can also cause the shell to simply dissolve, but that can take a while, depending on the strength of the pox or bleach. either way, it's bad news bears.
soak them in some soapy water, use ivory or dawn (something neutral and not colored, you'd risk tinting the shell). you can do the same with the slate. scrub them if need be with a toothbrush.
if they have stains that the soapy water won't shift, use white toothpaste on a toothbrush then rinse well. let them air dry for a couple days, and then mineral oil for the shell, and a slate countertop sealer will work lovely on the slate pieces. if you want to seal the shell, i think beeswax is ok, but several coats of mineral oil work just as well, if i remember correctly.
as for the top, can you make something that would slip over top of it? that way you don't have to mess with planing the top. it could be screwed to a plate or board underneath, so that the sides are secured to each other, but no screws go into the original board. does that make sense? it makes sense in my head, but maybe not to anyone else.
at any rate, it's a beautiful set, and i can't wait to see how you handle restoring it. good luck! ^.^-b
Please update us with what you do with it, I'd love to see your progress on it whenever you find the time.
As for flattening the top, I'd suggest using handplanes. I think you would ultimately have a more finely tuned top without as much risk for tearout that could come from a large planer or jointer.
Sure, but that would be a final step. Since it's like 3/8", I would want to remove the bulk of the material by machine first.
Oh, and I would also protect the edges with a tight-fit border trim before doing any planing operations; this would reduce the risk of tearout and give me a crisp edge.
I can't wait to see what you do with this.
I'm sorry I don't have any experience with any of those things. Hell, I don't even play Go. But that's not why I watch your channel haha
Nice score! I know this is untimely but have only recently discovered the "squared" channel.
As previously posted, trying to "do no harm" is the mantra for restorations. Restoring to perfection or full functionality voids this premise.
If dead flat is what is required, try a jack plane and winding sticks across grain. Follow flattening by planing with grain, and scraping, then sanding. Of course Mr. grid is gone using this method. One comment mentioned tear out and is a concern for whatever method is used. A SHARP plane and patience can minimize this. If hand tool skills are not up to par choose another option!
Since the presumed date is mid 20th Century, varnish or shellac are logical finishes for that era. I have had great success with Formby's refinishing product. It is not a stripper and can leave an acceptable look just by redistributing the existing finish. Scratches and imperfections are often filled and go away without a new coat. I do use a fresh coat and usually choose shellac as it is predictable and can be repaired if needed.
Finally, as wood is a dynamic medium this may not be a permanent solution. If both sides of the slab are out of balance in terms of finish coats, etc. the slab may return to whatever state equilibrium dictates. Thick slabs are the most unpredictable.
You could flatten it yourself with a router sled. As much as I, and probably you, would hate it, a laser would be great for re-cutting the grid. Good luck. I look forward to seeing what you do.
I don't get the disdain some people have for lasers. You could throw some masking tape across the surface, laser the grid, then paint in the engraved lines, remove the tape and finish the top. It may not be 'traditional' but it would be done in perfect dimensions with clean and crisp edges that would be almost impossible to achieve with any other method.
or even just buy a chequering tool like they use for chequering gun stocks. You can get really straight lines without a ton of practice and then he would have the handmade aesthetic he likes as well
Laser grids are horrific.
As others have mentioned, you could use a router sled to flatten the surface. Making a router sled would be a relatively easy build, and may come in handy for future projects.
That’s such a huge piece of SOLID wood!
Holy crap, I want to know how they cured it or dried it, that would be amazing
Wish I knew more about woodworking to contribute, but I can at least encourage a mini-series of this project
I am quite the connoisseur of go myself. I suggest that you add a wooden border that offsets the board in color, adds needed length and height, and becomes the outside edge of the grid. Planing I think will offer the most satisfactory result regardless of a border. As for the chewed corner mimic the Japanese art of Kintsugi that fits the style.
Don't worry about the 'non-flatness' leave the board alone (except for maybe cleaning it up like you did the bowls).
You could tumble the stones, but I’d proceed very carefully because they’re softer than the things most people tumble. I tumble agate and jasper...with the oddball shell in the mix here and there. I would research tumbling SOFT things, and I’d probably start with the final polishing grit...they’re already smooth and just in need of a shine. And I’d tumble them for only a few hours at a time in between checks. Make sure they’re well cushioned with some plastic tumbling media.
Ahhh ok I see the stones are a little big. Okay then tumble them! You need them smaller by just a hair. You can then cycle through the normal tumbling stages and shine them back up.
If you trim a bit off one end to try hide or minimize the chewed portion then you'd end up back with a square. I guess part of the appeal is that its one giant slab and any kind of edge banding to extend the surface, even if its only partially the way down, would still make it look like it's not... solid. But that's probably the way i'd go, and make it overhang a bit. I'd even try cut grooves with the tablesaw for the grid, inlaying them with a dark wood. Which would ruin the Solid Chunk vibe even more.
Assuming you want to keep them matched I guess it's a matter of deciding if you want to butcher either the board or the pieces. Sanding the pieces down would probably help hide some of the missing chips, although they look fragile and easily chippable to begin with so sanding them might be tough.
If you're willing to remove some wood to fix the corner, are you willing to glue on some pieces to make up for the shrinkage?
Yeah that they're not the same size is very annoying and it would be sooo time consuming to fix them all. Unfortunately I'm just a 19 year old girl with no experience at all 😂 wish I could bc I love your channel so much !
For the grid problem: I feel that the best solution would be to plain the whole top and then re paint the grid. (use a hand plainer sense it wont fit in your electric planer) This would get rid of the annoying curved top and then while repainting the grid you can stretch the lines along the axis that has shrunk. This would make the borders uneven as there would be less of a gap between the grid and the edge of the wood on the sides that were stretched. This problem could then be solved by planing the sides of the board that have the now larger borders.
Pocket! I am so jealous! I love go, yet no one will play with me. :( I am speechless how much I "hate" you right now!
Congrats buddy, I have no experience in woodworking, hence my trying to learn from your channels, so, good luck and God Bless!
Pocket, that triangle ish thing on the bottom is to help with the sound when you place he stones, it's to give that satisfying click when you lay them down. If there aren't any others who know more, I'd be happy to share what I know about why it is made the way it is and how what you do might effect the original design.
Again, good luck!
By the way, how much would you charge for the homemade version you show at the end? I have a cheap one from Korea and ours would be an improvement.
Also, after a bit of searching, you could also try tumbling the larger stones to not only polish them, but to reduce their size somewhat evenly. It's not letting me post a link to the youtube video I found, but search "How to make go stones from shell" and look for a video from an asian CZcamsr. The title is "How to Make Go Stones from Clamshell English" and the video duration is 1:57.
Here is my suggestion. With a hand planer, carefully plane down only the high spots and leave the grid in the low spots. This should make it possible to not lose all of the original grid but potentially correct some of its size errors. Obviously you may have to make a template in a cad program or paint shop etc. for filling in the now missing grid portions correctly. But, I think it is doable. I am coming at this as a machinist who mostly works in metal and rarely in wood, so maybe my reasoning is wrong on this. But, I think all you need to do is remove the high spots on the top and start there. Refinish the top when you are done and you have a reasonably grid corrected, mostly flat antique GO board. Though apparently some people before me really think you should treat this like a museum piece...part of me says, it is something you clearly want to display and even use, so restore it so you can use it and display in a way that satisfies you. Yours might be the last one in existence, but I doubt the world is short on antique GO boards. You will find another in better shape that you like at some point, I bet.
Pocket have you considered picture-framing it in a contrasting wood? This will allow you to remove all wood damage at the corners and also widen the board, thus providing enough space to keep a 19x19 grid.
It is not entirely known for what the purpose of the notch in the bottom on the board is. Some think it helps with the pleasing sound of a stone being placed on the board.
As for the finish, my first thought was, "do the Japanese use (have used) shellac?". From what google gave me back when I asked, while they do have lackerware (Urushi) and use persimmon tannin juice (Kaki-sibu) they also use something quite common. Having a distinct honey aroma when rubbed with alcohol is a strong indicator of ... bees wax which IS something Japanese woodworkers used as a finish along with, Carnuba, Ibota and less often Japan wax (both bleached and unbleached). Perhaps a small flame test could prove this.
For the shells, I concur with peroxide. This very morning I got myself a small bottle of hair salon grade peroxide (12%) to use as bleacher for some white plastics that turned yellow(ish) and the seller cautioned me to wear gloves in order to keep my hands spotless. Pharmacy grade Hydrogen peroxide (6-3%) might be just right for the white pieces.
For the hard part now. The board.
Option 1: Leave it as is. (You already have a beauty of a board to play with!)
Option 2: Plane the top flat with a router and redraw the grid a little bigger in order for the pieces to fit. If it's made out of Kaya, it already is thinner than the norm so you won't be taking away it's value. Not much anyway.
The pieces should be reduced in diameter. A drill press with a ground hex bolt head covered in silicone on top and the inner ring of a small ball bearing (with felt) at the bottom, with nail files for the grinding of the perimeter should do the trick.
Always a pleasure, Mr. Pocket!
I wouldn't modify the stones. The options I'd consider are:
1. Enlarge the board by added a wooden border. It could take care of the damage as well. But it would detract from the simplicity of the design.
2. Make it a 17x17 board.
3. Restore the board for display but make a slightly larger "lid" with a 19x19 grid for actual play.
I'm not sure any of them are ideal. I think I'd tend to number 3.
For the tenons on the legs you can use antifreeze and reassemble immediately and they will swell and stay stable whereas water will eventually dissipate and the wood will shrink again.
Yes, white is vibly thinner, I'd expect that since the raw material it was extracted from, shell, tends to be thin so you have less space to work with, though there may be some other reason for it.
I actually did antique furniture restoration for a number of years under a master craftsman. I am scared by what you are talking about doing. I can't watch the entire video now, but I am thinking that is just a buffed wax on the bowls. Will have to see what happens later. I could have given you some good tips.
I made a second reply, but it had a problem and didn't post. I don't think it is shellac as lacquer was the primary finishing technique at the time you think this was made. Also Japan was modernized at this point to, still old time craftsman, but not the old school stuff. The alcohol would have done more damage if it was shellac. I did French Polish technique on antiques for a long time and still do on my own stuff. If you plane that board you will be removing any value it has from it's age. I could go on, but I can't remember everything I wrote down as I finished watching it. Let me know if you see this message and I can see about helping you out. I think the stones might not be the ones that came with the board possibly. Also you can buy stone/shell replacements with bowls for about $250 and then you could save the old ones or sell them to make your money back. The board is best to be left mostly alone and just deal with it or use it as a show piece.
Thanks. After the storm of commentary I received following this video, I just decided that it isn't as valuable to me as it might be to somebody else. As such, I may sell it. I already have a simple board to play on. Nothing else has been done to it.
@@pocket83squared the playing chips are worth 250 so that is a good ten dollar investment. I can still give you more advice if you want to do anything with it. Still a nice decoration and still might have more value.
Looks like the wood shrunk, hence the grid misalignment and the warping of the whole piece overall. when my tool handles shrink I soak them in ethylene glycol to make the wood uptake something that won't evaporate too readily and makes it swell up nicely. I have no idea if it's a good idea on a piece that large though.
I dont have much experience with shells, but knowing that they're carbonate based, I'd be careful with peroxide. It could work really well, but it's such a strong oxidizer that it could destroy them if you just let them sit in H2O2 overnight. I might try a really diluted NaOH solution, but I'm not sure if that would work super well either. Time is probably just going to be the main investment here.
On the subject of finishing, I think that a French polish with shellac would be gorgeous on such a massive block, but it wouldn't be exactly traditional.
Go..Pockets83....i cant wait to see the out come..good luck man...;-p
If you lightly steam the board then the wood will naturally expand, mabye enough to square the points, and then you could seal the wood.
I've wanted to learn Go for some time now, is it too much to ask for a future video of you teaching us the rules and some game play? Only if you can find the time of course.
Maybe apply the same table saw grid solution to the older go board that will help the surface from shrinking and expanding
Hey Pocket, I know you were looking for ways to get around having to plane the board and repaint it ... what if you made a little track and gantry for your router, and used your router like a mill machine to surface plane something like a half inch off the surface (to get all the way down to the lowest point on the board) and then to take care of the width problems you could use your router to make like a rabbit around the top of the board, and make a sort of thin frame almost like a skirt that makes the top a little wider so that you can keep the 19x19 board and keep the pieces/grid their respective sizes, it could also help hide the damage on the upper corners
I know exactly what you mean. I've done that sort of thing a few times before, and I should've mentioned it here. That's still equivalent to planing it though, so I'd still have to remake the grid.
pocket83² that’s true you would have to remake the grid, but as long as you measured it accurately enough couldn’t you tape off everything except the x-axis lines, then spray/brush them, then remove the tape and tape everything but the y-axis lines and then spray/brush them? It would be a little time consuming but I don’t think it would be difficult.
And what’re your thoughts on making rabbets in the sides and using a skirt like addition to beef up the table top to give you room to correct the grid?
I suppose if you wanted to just leave the table alone as much as possible the only other option would be altering the pieces which you said would be quite a task. I feel like you could probably batch them. Maybe you could hold them loosely in your fingers and let them spin over your chamfer machine (so that they don’t try to run off to the left or right) and just let them round themselves down to a more suitable size, then you’d have to polish each one.
If you're going to have a tough time planing the surface, perhaps you could set it up on a CNC router, then the device can be conveniently switched over to cut lines for your playing surface. I know you don't have one, but if you're going to have to enlist help anyway, perhaps you take care of both issues at the same time. Chamfer or fillet on the corners seems like a good idea FWIW.
And I'm not trying to suggest you should send it to me, as I don't trust myself with something of this quality! Unbelievable that was $10. On the other hand, it's tough to finish projects if you're always starting new ones (as I have found from a vast amount of experience here).
lol. I too have vast experience when it comes to starting projects!
They say that _well begun is half done._
I wish I could believe that.
Ha. Guessing whoever made up that phrase didn't actually make anything. Or maybe some people have more focus than you or I.
Hi Pocket, while I am not familiar with this game (I will be trying it out though) I will be happy to offer a solution that I thought of. First, I should mention that this solution is based on my educated guess that it is okay to alter this board as long as the end result is a flat top with a grid the matches the mean of the diameters of your pieces.
First, I suggest you sort your go pieces. Slate and shell weather at different rates and you need to consider the usage of the pieces and the environmental impact they were succumb to. You'll want the error or deviation from the mean to be minimal without requiring too much effort. How you would adjust these pieces is up to you. Would you be able to remove the pieces that are sized beyond the error?
Second, as for the table top, You will need to get it planed at a lumber supply company. They would have a plain large enough to handle a board of that size. While they are at it, they could easily plane the bottom as well (and might need to depending on how bad it is.)
After the board has been planed, you'll want to design the optimal grid for the board on your computer using the calculations you took of your pieces. Then it's as easy as using the print out as a template or better yet a stencil to replace the grid. You do have a bit of play with the border on your board and in a worst case scenario could always reduce the size of the board by one intersection all the way around.
You might also want to check the moisture content of the board as well. Do you know under what conditions the board was stored in? The Pennsylvania weather can be a bit humid at times.
If you are interested in discussing this further, I would enjoy communicating with you through replies, emails, etc. It's great to see another individual who enjoys practical mathematical problem solving.
Have you considered a CNC router? You could remove just enough material from the top to flatten it. Then use a small V bit to cut a new grid. Hopefully by making the margins smaller you would have enough room to resize the grid.
To me, that grid is what makes this elaborate cutting board with legs a Go board, and it being the wrong size to fit the shrunken block makes it an old Go board with history. I would personally do all I could to keep the original grid intact.
So my vote goes for resizing the game pieces - would something like a rock tumbler be able to reduce them in size evenly in all dimensions?
I would say clean it well and refinish. It is beautiful as it is. If you want a perfect one, make a new one.
Is there possibly enough room on both sides of the grid to expand by a half square or a bit less and still be able to place pieces there without them sticking out or falling off? Then you'd be able to expand each row by that fraction of a square without having to lose a row, and since you're taking material off anyway you could take a bit more off the sides where the grid fits right to keep it centered and square with the board.
I assume you thought of this already and there just isn't enough space to do it, but since I didn't hear you mention it I figured I'd put it out there just in case you'd overlooked that option.
Did you ever do anything further with this? I am deeply interested in this content. :)
Nope. It was forced to the back of the line when I moved. At present, it sits on the floor in my office, covered an untouched. After some time (and the thoughtful commentary), I've decided to part with it. I'm going to sell it and make my own, simply because this one would mean more to somebody else.
You know, it's curious; we just don't get to choose what our obsessions are. Still, it's a beautiful and interesting object.
The flat stones are a bit of a mystery. Nothing wrong with them, but in 20th century Japan, rounder stones became the norm as sources for thicker clams were discovered (and eventually glass stones became a thing). This could mean the stones are much older than the board, or just cheap ones. Would explain why the black stones don't really fit the board. If I found a set like this, I'd keep the board for sure but use better stones.
Yeeey another pocket videoo :D love your vids
I liked the beginning xD
what about making a frame arround the board to enlarge it and apply veneer on top and redraw de grid?
damn 10 dollars from craigslist, what a steal! great video, pocket
Thanks.
Plane the top, true up the outer edges, add a border. Redraw the grid to be further out to the original edge, but not over the new border.
The cut out in the bottom of the board is not a maker's mark. In fact, it is there to prevent the warping of the board as the wood dries over the years. In this case that did not work too well.
This is a case of correlation-is-not-causation. Folk wisdom. Whenever the cutout happens to be on a straight board, then the technique is considered to have worked.
In reality, there are far too many variables to account for with a solid block of wood of this size; there's really only one way to cure it such that its straightness and squareness can be preserved, and that's to shape the (final) block to the specific environment in which it will remain.
Truly, the concept of _wabi-sabi_ applies here. That, and, well (for people like myself who are too reluctant to accept the defeat of imperfection), plywood.
I think on sensei's library it states the cutout also helps with acoustics when you play a stone on the board.
Considering that it was made in Japan the indent on the bottom is probably taken from a Shogi board. I believe that the indent was historically used to catch the blood from someone being beaded for cheating. However citation is needed for that.
No expertize in this area at all, but I thought they ended up looking much better. I would like to mention that many gobans are ut together from multiple pieces. Single-piece gobans ARE a big deal.
I would attach some trime on the edges to avoid tearout and rout the surface. I think I would be too scared of a beastly plain to wreck this beautiful piece of wood. but that's just me, someone who nearly always prefers smaller and more controllable tools that I handle myself, over asking someone to come in and help me with my project with their (maybe superior) equipment.
oh, and I would under no circumstances modify the stones' sizes in any way, shape or form. that would take a lot of their authenticity, in my opinion.
Too cool! My choice would be simply clean it. Dont refinish, dont resurface, dont even fix the black lines that are chipped.
To my mind, just about anything you do beyond cleaning is going to take away from the "antique value". You would simply be using the materials to make your own GO set. Nothing wrong with that I spose. I like old things to look old, which means not perfect (smile).
And you did make a perfect GO board already. You might think about modifying it so it fits over the antique GO board.
Felt the feet for sure to reduce wabliness, good idea.
That point is noted. I will consider. I'm not rushing.
would whoever made the board be confident it's being treated properly?
i feel it's in good hands.
maybe you could go find that board stretcher you were talking about and share with us where you got it, so that we can too get board stretchers!
it could make my parquet floor a lot cheaper - depending on how well it works ;-)
i'm sorry i can't really provide any useful information. thank you for the video, though :-)
Add trim around the outside and scale the grid up
Hey pocket, I know this isn't related to the video, but I could never figure out this problem you gave us a while back on this channel. You have a 4x8 sheet of plywood and you want to cut 3 identical circles out of it. What are the largest diameter circles you could cut? I've searched around on the channel but I can't seem to find where you gave this question. If you could give the answer and maybe a quick explanation I would thoroughly enjoy it. Thanks.
Looks like you will have to add wood to make it wider. I think you will rune the value of the board if you modify it.
I would suggest making your own board and use the legs from the old ones. For the grid I would use a dark wood inlay.
I’m no expert about what to do about the pieces but I would consider a wax. But I’m not sure about that.
if you plane the whole surface, then the grid will be gone. When the grid is gone would it be a bad thing for you to redraw the grid closer to the edges to compensate for the warping?
Pocket, you know how you can wet wood to get rid of scuffs or dents? Apparently getting the wood wet makes it swell back to it's original shape. Perhaps a bath is in order, and it might put the board back to its original dimensions.
Nothing to add regarding the board, but I wonder, how would it look and play, if one made a board with no flat grid but oblong biscuit holes instead. Each stone would be upright in it's hole, say two thirds visible.
What you have identifed as the biggest problem is not a problem at all, and is, in fact the way that the boards are designed.
I was thinking the same thing but near the end of the video he does say that the boxes are rectangles because of the visual reference of size as in the stones. I kept yelling at the screan that the boxes aren’t supposed to be square. Ha.
@@kidherder Per the interweb: "The reason physical boards use rectangles is so when you're sitting behind it the optical illusion makes them look like squares."
You might consider adding a mitered frame around the board to make it bigger and redo the grid bigger after planing. Not original, but a lot less work than making all the pieces smaller...
The grid is supposed to be different in one direction than the other, if you decide to redo it keep the different sizes just enlarge it
If your water is acidic (I think you said that before), I feel like it wouldn't be a good idea to soak the shells. Maybe the corrosion would be minimal buuuuut it could harm the finish, no? (then again I'm basing this off my experience of petrified wood and soft stones losing the shine after a bit of time in an acidic tank)
*EDIT : typos
Oh you've reminded me of one my favorite Babylon 5 quotes!
"Arrogance and stupidity all in the same package. How efficient of you"
Is there any reason you can't make the squares of the grid slightly larger, and simply reduce the margin around the edges?
You also might consider adding a border around the edges (in some decorative fashion) and use that extra space from the border to expand the squares while keeping it 19x19 (although that would be a serious restoration and it would lose a lot of its value).
Don't modify the top. Make a new play surface that goes over the top that is the right size. Perhaps make the grid by joining squares of wood, like a chess board, but of the same wood. When not in use put the new play surface under the board so it looks like a display stand. Then you have the best of both, as original as possible with a way to play the game.
The grid size is that way by design. It’s a bit to compensate for the same optical illusion that he board dimensions compensate for, but a large part of it is because eastern cultures often find beauty in asymmetricality. When the stones don’t quite fit the same about both dimensions, you’re almost forced to not put them exactly on the intersections.
So you don't think that this is from shrinkage at all? You think this is the way it's supposed to be?
I wouldn’t be surprised if shrinkage played a small role. The traditional line dimensions are 415mmX445.6mm.
How about a router sled to level the top, like several You Tubers do with live edge slabs? Another idea would be instead of wrapping the loose leg with a wet towel,, could you put a piece of wet felt between the top and end of the leg? That would hydrate the leg and if it is the short one, may possibly make the rocking go away. I just shudder at pounding a swollen leg into that top. I think the disparity of size could cause the whole top to split as you “stretch” the bottom half with no strain relief. My idea might do the same but without the mallet violence may be better. REALLY ENVIOUS OF YOU! $10? You shoulda bought a lottery ticket that day.
You should also tuck a small piece of paper in the hole with the URLs for this video and the rest you make of the restoration.
IDK anything about woodworking, but I think you need to choose between preserving it's value and making it into something playable. IMO any permanent modifications you make at all would alter the value, even if it improves it's functionality. If you care to preserve it's value see about getting it appraised, and if you intend on keeping this for life, do with it as you please. Just my opinion on the matter, you'll have a hard time doing both.
My gaffer (he's about 70, daren't ask) repairs water stains on shellac by gently poking the damage with a pin, wiping with meths and quickly sweeping it with a torch. I believe the meths is hydrophilic, pulling water out. He then refinished it with more shellac. Apparently, they used to light the meths but it's not done now. I think they changed the composition of the stuff, he's not great at explaining things because they're all so self evident to him.
I'd be inclined to cut the board in half and plane it, then bond in a bridge to get the width back. Sacrilege, I know, but I'd at least find something like Japanese maple to keep it in tone.
Yes interesting but I’ve been left hanging. I’ll be looking forward to the video...
The cells are not squares but rather rectangles. This is to compensate for the perspective distorsion when watching the grid in the vertical direction. So, the board should be placed in one direction only relative to the players. Do NOT draw square grid lines! The grid is correct and the board has not shrunk!
Again, I have to disagree with tradition. The game of Go has neither a north nor a south, so a player is free to view the play area from any direction. With a rectangular board, viewing it from the 'side' will have the opposite effect, and it'll end up exaggerating the difference in perspective. The brain is already quite good at perceiving depth on a checkerboard; it doesn't need a 'correction' to help it, especially since the asymmetry has the further burden of causing gameplay to become more cumbersome.
Sorry to be disagreeable. It's sort of my forte to be critical of game design. Feel free to argue me out of my opinion!
10 WHOLE DOLLARS?? Holy shit that's a steal, all my jelly man
Incidentally, you should totally plane the top and redo the surface pattern. Thought you were mad at first for thinking about it, but honestly not being able to play with the original pieces is kind of a deal breaker isn't it. You can re-space the pattern to make the pieces fit; just make it run to the edge instead. A lot of traditional go table run the pattern to the edge so it's a good solution.
Wipe the grid, clean up misalignment, and try to get it back as close to the original as you can
Iam not a woodworker and dont have a hoby in it. But I do have an idea for the board. Remove the finish and soak the board in water. It may expand to its original size.
I think you could leave the shape alone and simply rest a piece of glass of the correct dimensions on top level without drilling into the top (glass has engraved grid).
Does not having a 19x19 gameboard alter the gameplay so heavily that it'd be worth resizing the stones?