Scraping a Tapered Gib to a Lathe Cross Slide: Monarch Lathe Restoration - Part 22
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- čas přidán 2. 12. 2018
- Now that I have made the new tapered gib for the Monarch lathe, it is time to scrape it in to match the dovetails in the lathe cross slide using a Biax power scraper. I go through the process and finish up with some testing to make sure that the finished cross slide is running perpendicular to the lathe ways.
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When oil is magnify it resembles tiny ball bearing. An so, the oil will find it way into the scrape marks, and lubricate the gib in the cross slide.
Thanks for the explanation about scraped vs ground surfaces!
Amazing workmanship! I learned more in 30 mins than in the last 10 years about scraping/alignment etc.
Thank you!
Eric
KIETH you forgot to tell everyone I showed you how to do that,. Amazing workmanship that I showed you how to scrape and straighten the gib,
Accurate? Hell yes! That lathe is going to make some beautiful music Keith!
Wow good to know on keeping a slightly rough surface. I thought a perfectly smooth surface would be much better. I’m glad I watched this!
I have learned a lot watching your videos thanks for sharing
Excellent running description of what you were doing and why, Keith. Nice results, too! Richard King will be proud of you...
I had my Brown and Sharpe screw machine scraped in again after 30 years. What an improvement, money well spent.
Many years ago I was taught how to scrape ways. I was taught to hand scrape all surfaces using masters for tight places like this. Large areas also had masters. I was taught to use an orange rubbing paste to find the high spots. I was also taught to make the scraping tools. I was just a young electrical engineer
Thanks Keith!
Great video. I know you are a busy guy so i appreciate it when you are able to get out another post and you do a nice job presenting and informing us. 😊
One major step closer!! You have to be tickled about it coming out still aligned. :-)
I guess having something down to the "Nth precision level" will make fo a whole lot of fun down the line on future projects Keith...Kudos
Great video.
FYI Keith, your new video thumbnail pictures have a red line along the bottom when they show up to watch. This matches youtubes red line showing that i already watched a video . Might want to remove that art too not confuse viewers.
Yeah. It looks like I'd already watched the video.
Yes I agree as well, I thought I already watched this video.
Same problem, I thought it was just a youtube bug. There you go I guess.
I agree. The red line is quite confusing. Thanks for the great videos, Keith. A project like this requires a GREAT deal of patience and skill. Appreciate your sharing.
I think its obvious that the red line is more to the top of the blue line and its not the ‘ive already watched it’ line, and i think it looks nice now and he shouldnt change it
I enjoy the passion you and others like Adam Booth and Brian Bloc show when restoring your machinery.
Again, this is a fascinating project. Looking forward to the 10EE
Same here, I'm curious if he restores the EE to original or upgrades the spindle drive to modern technology.
I have one made in 1955, but it needs a lot of work. I am hoping to follow along when Keith starts his restoration
The demonstration you are giving is the next best thing to having experience, very clear very concise. This has been a very good series well worth my time watching twice. video quality is excellent I might add.
Its been a fun project Keith, I have learned alot watching you on this one.
Hi Keith If you are going to make a new cross nut . You should look at making the nut longer if you can because it would last longer with more bearing material. I have done this and I use Aluminum Bronze for the nut . Good Luck
Nice job!
Amazing how nice work you do. So fun to fallow this work. I learned a lot.
Hi Keith,
Great video I've done a lot of grinding in Coventry factories UK,but it made me smile at 4.55 when you touched on it made you jump when it flashed on the end.
Excellent!
Great stuff Keith! Thanks
Enjoyed Keith!
ATB, Robin
Great work, hoping we'll eventually manage to get our lathe up to spec in the same way. Learning a lot from you in the meantime!
Good video. Several related topics covered in short order.
Nice job! Thanks for the video.
It will be great to see that lathe cutting some chips, I think I could hear the excitement in your voice.
Excellent video/discussion......looking forward to chips!
Congrats to the this step in the restoration!
Great video Keith. Good to see all that hard work paying off. Cheers from the UK
Your in the home stretch Keith! Can't wait to see the first chips fly!
Thanks Keith for all of this. I will be a great guide for me when I tackle my Colchester Student this winter.
Keith, Awesome video thanks for sharing.!.!.!.
Very nice, the accuracy of this lathe is gonna be top notch.
Good explanation why scraping is needed. It's all about matching the geometry and stick and slip.
Static friction (as when things aren't moving) is always greater than when the parts slide along nicely. It's like compressing a spring, you build up force until the static friction can be overcome (stick) and then the parts suddenly move apart (slip) and it can be sometimes more than what you intended.
Wonderful work, the lathe is ever closer to the final restoration and therefore be in operation, and I can not wait for the restoration of the other two monarch lathes. Congratulations great work, and as always very interesting thank you.
Nice Job Keith!
Steve
Keith nice work.
I don't know how Keith finds the time and energy to do as much as he does.
That is going to be one great lathe when you finish.
Scraping is identical to an Abbot bushing as to roughing the surface contact to allow oil to percolate between the surfaces.
Ta. Have to do mine now.
You are certainly doing a really good job on that Monarch and your scrapping skills are coming in handy, she is looking really good. 2 ground surfaces sticky like Jo Blocks Gauge Blocks. Nice oils groves wondered how those got done when I come across them.
One think that I don't think you checked for was any curvature in the gib. When you ground it, the magnetic chuck would have pulled any curvature flat, so the result would have been accurately tapered but perhaps a bit curved. The printing you did during the scraping would have done the same thing: pressing the curvature flat.
A curved gib will fit ok, but the pressure between the gib and the ways will be concentrated in one spot (or two, depending on the direction of the curve). This will produce increased resistance to movement and uneven gib wear.
You could test for this by trying the pivot test on a surface plate, for both the front and back of the gib.
Very astute observation and I agree. I had thought of saying it at the end of the previous video but decided not to bother upsetting Keith's plaudits again. Keith would not have thought of your point.
chris0tube
And there was I thinking that mine was a lone voice here. Thank you for that, and again, you have a very eloquent turn of phrase.
another great instructional video Keith i have just got my sticky hands on a Chinese mini lathe so am expecting to end up stripping it down and re building it I just hope my efforts are as accurate as yours
I suspect when he finishes, the Monarch will be at a far higher level of accuracy than when it was new. I bought a used Chinese 3 in 1 machine a while back and did a similar teardown and re-build, and it was amazing how accurate it was after all done. I'm sure you will have the same results with your mini lathe.
good content
Look forward to seeing this lathe make chips
Great work Mr. Rucker! The smoother the surfaces, the more likely they are to wring together. Gotta have scraping. I have a compound gib problem myself. The one in my lathe looks like it was scraped with a roughing mill. LOL I am ordering a new gib, but it will have to be ground and scraped. It just never ends!! 'Til next time.
@@chris0tube Wasn't talking about scraping, was talking about grinding? That why I said you gotta have scraping, in reference to ground surfaces.
@@chris0tube Some type of relief in the surface is needed to allow oil to "float" the gib to minimize wear, and sticking. mrpete222 made a new gib for one of his small lathes that was neither ground, nor scraped, and it worked just fine for his purposes. The metal would have had enough surface imperfections to allow oil to penetrate between gib and way.
Wouldn't you want to put a flat surface in a chuck on your lathe head and run your indicator off of that seeing as how they work surface will be chucked up there? To make sure both are parallel to each other?
Getting there Keith. Looks like new and possibly better than. Des
YAY
Getting closer to being able to use the lathe
Would have done this by hand used to put blue on with felt pad spent 50 years building machines mainly thread grinders
6:00 what that’s telling me is anything he’s gonna machine in Ga. will be within tolerance until that 90 year old man wants a new winding stem made for his pocket watch
and somewhere on here lies a happy blue sky sorry a little bob ross lol
loved the Video Keith but Have you thought of using your magnetic chuck to hold small parts like that while scraping
Keith, Thank you for the info on scraped surfaces. I'm about to try almost the same process.
Only the Gib on my machine is installed in a Vertical Orientation.
I've already been cautioned about the possibility of jamming the Gib.
But I cannot find any info on how best to avoid a jammed Gib condition.
Can you offer any advice on how not to jam the Gib while checking the Bluing process?
Excellent video, very nice that the lathe is where it should be in regard to perpendicular, but it begs a question: What do you do, and how is perpendicular corrected, if the perfect situation
is not the case, and the cross-slide is out of alignment ?
Are you thinking about that Tool and Cutter Grinder yet ? Acme threads...nice job.
Keith, can you please make that single tooth acme internal threading tool ? I have no clue how to make an internal cutting tool so it would help me immensely. Thanks!
Hi, Keith. Awesome stuff. I was thinking don't you have to also blue your gib on your surface plate alternately because tapping the dovetail into your ways doesn't necessarily blue the 4 corners of the gib, i.e., the perimeter of the gib's surface is not blued when test fitting?
Quite honestly, I have never seen a ground surface used when both are the same material, both the gib and slide are cast iron. You need the oil pockets and as you say to adjust the angle etc. for proper fit
Would the mag chuck on the grinder hold that gib firmly enough to scrap with part of the gib held by the clamp?
Keith did your yard dry out. Thought you might have to bring the Ark out.
Hi Keith, is there a path from those oil grooves in the turcite to some oil fitting? If not how do you get oil in there? Nice work!
Wouldn't a pair of adjustable cylindrical linear bearing blocks be better than the dove tail slide in terms of reliability and longevity, since linear bearings are a lot more affordable and readily available!?
Just a quick question - do you think that the weight of the apron will have any effect on the cross slide alignment.
Why does the cross slide not need to be machined so it is 'square or parrellel" with the chuck and spindle to tailstock axis?When you set the angle to "0" shouldnt it be at a 90 degreese to the spindle /tailstock asis? Wont the angle reading be off this way? You wont be makeing square 90 degree faceing cuts this way.Nice lathe by the way. Keep up the good work.
Because forces on tool have tendency to push cross slide in the other direction. There must be some slack, otherwise cross slide will be impossible to move. So, to achieve straight cut, lathe must be set with some pre-tension in other side.
Sorry for bad English.
That is going to be a sweet lathe when your done. Do you even use the lodge and shiply at museum anymore?
Got myself one of those mini mills cheap. Slightly used guy was cutting aluminum when a screw came out of circuit board and toasted board. Less than one hour of use. Packed in that slimy none grease stuff to prevent rust got to take it apart to clean everything. Reason for it? Cutting key ways on motor shafts. Got any good but reasonable advise for a vise four inch? The amazon ones all have reg metric thread screws instead of acme.
in relation to the question about ground on scraped...when the machine came from the factory, where both the surfaces scraped?
How do you scrap and ensure flatness and straightness on something larger than your straight edge or surface plate? They've made some massive lathes and mills in the past, there's no way they had reference surfaces that large.
The precision is awesome but I am curious (and I am not a machinist I just love this sort of stuff) how often do you machine things where this level of precision is truly needed?
Once is enough, if you can't do it.
At the end of video, when you check perpendicularity of slide, why you said that you want to the indicator to move?
is adding the additional oil grooves an improvement to current practice?
i wouldn't have the patience to do that :0)
20:51 Did you just lay the cross feed screw on the ways?
Sorry but I didn't understand the explanation of why you don't want the cross slide running 100% perpendicular?
When the tool goes towards the chuck it will try and resist and twist the bit in the opposite direction (tail stock, there's always slop otherwise things wouldn't move easily). Also when facing one would more likely want the end to be concave towards the chuck and then the end will sit flat on a surface... Don't really know... :)
Also when doing bearing surfaces one would like the most outer surface of the race to contact the surface... Otherwise it could twist along the axis when mounted, like a ring on a ball...
Nothing is ever perfect. Railroad tracks are also like strings of wire, everything bends.
He also mentioned in a previous video that as it wears it will tend to push out towards being convex. Better to start a little concave to compensate for that eventual wear.
Can anyone comment on approximately how much 'slop' or variability the oil on the ways would produce? Seems like I remember Keith commenting on that years ago but I just cannot remember.
I'm assuming you want the gib to wear out before the ways but just in case I'm wrong... Why do you use cast iron as opposed to a harder material?
Hmmm- clamping one end on a wood bench with other end up in air looks like a good way to warp that gib- why not put it on your magnetic table for the scraping.
This is the small monarch, right? there's still a big monarch to restore as well? (and a 10EE?)
can you use an angle grinder as a scraper?
Surprised you did not use a magchuck to hold the gib for scraping :) otherwise very instructional.
looks like you made it threw the flood, all most chip making time
Dude! That is not a brush! That is a sponge!
How long does the gib last?
50 years +
decades, all depends on its care more than anything else, these were made for long days constant use for decades, the occasional use, along with cleaning and proper lubrications...forever....most of these machines had a 2-3-4th life which werent as well looked after, abused and not lubricated.
Keith I don’t intend to be critical, I’m not sure how you can accurately scrape the gib without a proper work holding method. The gib seemed to be springing up and down during your scraping process. Recently Dale Derry posted a video where he employs a surface grinder magnetic chuck for work holding while scraping. I’m not a scraping expert but the magnetic chuck scenario seems more plausible to me than clamping the gib unsupported on a wooden bench, especially after you went to the pains to surface grind the gib. It appears it turned out just fine though. As I said before, not being critical, just an observation.
If he was scraping a bow, it would show when he blued it.
Everthing that could have happened was bending the gib while scraping it on that uneven surface. Didn't happen, so it's fine.
@@chris0tube I don't see that risk of increasing the effort.
@@chris0tube In previous clips about scraping he had to do several passes too. It's part of the scraping job. Putting the gib on the wooden desk was not ideal for sure, but it did not lead to increasing the expense of work in a significant way.
NOT READY TO RUN :-( :-)
Keith, you totally lost me with having a 5 thou run out in towards the headstock. When you do a facing isn't it supposed to completely flat and not have a dish to it? When your using a cutoff tool, then it is cutting on a taper, or am I not getting it?
it's a 5 tenths runout, not 5 thou. That's 5 tenths over what, maybe 10 inches? If you're facing something that's 6 inches in diameter, you'd move the slide 3 inches, resulting in the center of your face being about 1.5 tenths shorter than the outside. that's tiny! but, as Keith says in the video, if it was convex instead, when you set the "flat" end on a flat surface, it would move around. If it's concave slightly, it prevents that problem. If you made it flat, then any other runout could easily cause the part to become convex, so those 5 tenths are a little bit of insurance to make sure your faced off ends hopefully always end up on the concave side.
You don't have two dovetails on it.
Both tapers equal one dovetail.
I still don't get the scrapping...if the wedge is tightened in place and there is no slop on the top piece and it still slides back and forth with no binding, why is scrapping necessary? It was a perfect fit and then you hack it all up by scrapping..? Seems like there is nothing precise about hacking willie nillie by hand on a flat combined angled surface...? That guys comments at the end are exactly making my point....so oiling is the reason I guess....
I don't get everyone's fetish for scraping everything
fetish?
The read line in you thumbnail make me think I have already watched your video. You might be missing out on views.
@21:31 I see you Keith.
At the rate you're getting on with this job it will take you years to restore your 10EE.
So?