Why and How DM's Kill Their Players
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- čas přidán 16. 06. 2024
- Learn different DnD strategies the DM's of #criticalrole and #dimension20 as well as the creators of Dungeons and Dragons use to handle player character death in their campaigns.
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0:00 - Intro
0:34 - Matthew Mercer's first tip
1:24 - Brennan Lee Mulligan's Hack
2:50 - Chris Perkins' tip
3:50 - Matt Mercer's second hack
4:44 - Johnny Stanton's Tip
6:10 - Jeremy Crawford's Trick
7:55 - Brian "Murph" Murphy's simple tip
9:02 - Matts third trick - Jak na to + styl
DMs, please don't kill your players that's a felony. Killing their characters is okay though.
I was going to post the same joke
what if they don’t bring snacks?
@@InvaderTroy hurt them, but don't kill them.
@@iPivo gods damnit
Unless it’s in self defense of course
My first character died doing something stupid and I loved it. It wasn't a planed death. I ignored my DMs warnings about how dangerous the stupid thing I wanted to do was. I ended up a statue having pricked myself on a cockatrices beak trying to cut off it's head to use as a sling stone. I then proceeded to roll horribly on my fortitude saving throws and ended up dead but with one of the funniest d&d death I've ever heard of. And I rolled up one of my favorite characters of all time to continue the campaign with. I called this death by dead chicken.
Your point at 9:50 is very relevant. I've been running a campaign for two years heavily focused on undeath and the moral nuance surrounding divine resurrection vs. necromantic preservation of "life." One of my players recently lost a close family member in real life, and those themes understandably took on an extra dimension for her. I took her aside and talked about how she felt about continuing. Somewhat surprisingly, she said that the game was cathartic for her. It allowed her to process and acknowledge some of the things she was feeling, and being around trusted friends was helpful for her.
I have run 500+ pro-games. At least two player characters have died in those games. In each case, I took it harder than the player. I did not lose any customers because of it.
Oh in my games death is something my players always have to face.
The advantage of this is that my players are happy when they survive a combat.
But I can absolutly understand when dms don't want to kill their players.
What the hell is a pro TTRPG-Game?
Pro dnd? Righttt…… pro at randomness makes sense.
@@Dr.RojoMcDelly what if I told you that you can hire DMs?
Weird flex but okay….. nerd.
I had two characters die in an Epic Encounters box that I used as a thematically appropriate side quest in my campaign recently. I made sure that my players knew that this was going to be a deadly encounter ahead of time, and that they had backup characters prepared just in case. After the session I asked my players how they felt about it. One of them in particular said they were OK with their character dying, because it allowed for real character development for one of the other players. I think character death is fine, as long it is something that feels weighty and important rather than something to be glossed over or avoided. If there are no real stakes in combat, then it's kind of like playing a video game on easy mode, where there are no real emotional rewards when you defeat that BBEG. Also, I have players roll their death saves behind the DM's screen, and allow a 'Last stand or last words' when it happens. Players either get a last heroic action as they go down, or say their farewell as they lie dying'. Makes for very satisfying roleplaying.
Love the last stand idea to always allow players to go out exactly as they want.
When I've used it there has been laughter, triumph, and drama. I highly recommend it.@@donventura2116
Me personally...I am with the standard DND lore, Death is only the beginning(ala the mummy tagline), but when you die you go to either your gods plane, or your alignments plane (and I don't do alignment, but I'd pick a plane for players that I think is just) and that they can come back...and give my players the option to leave that character behind or make it an adventure to get them back (and allow an interim character) which I have done once. It was epic...had to go to the shadow fell, and prison break him out of the clutches of the raven queen, as I love time dilation in my games especially with different planes, (I make other planes move really fast while prime material moves slowly). Still, this character died, was doing missions for his god Deep Salesh than was captured by The Raven Queen(I looked up the lore between them and decided that makes sense) but he is now a couple hundred years older (he was an Eladrin). So now he is back in the party but different...Also in the interim he has played two different characters, allowing him to flex his weird character-build ideas.
DM's don't kill characters. Dice kill characters.
In the event of character death. I give my players a chance to describe it.
If they don't, I do and I make it dramatic, heroic, horrific. Depending on the situation.
At my table any combat can result in death. Dice can be mean.
Ngl this sounds like a scapegoat someone would use to not take responsibility for the situations they put their players into.
Sure, you don't decide the dice rolls, but you decide literally everything about the enemies, so let's not act like you're not at least partially responsible.
@@HeabSaysNodepends on the GM. If they give players a warning about their actions and the players continue down that path then eventually bad decisions might catch up. Are there antagonistic GMS? Yes and they suck. Are there some that are also neutral, and let the story and player decisions go where it may? Yes. Are there players who push boundaries and go around murder hoboing? Yeah, would a sane person blame the GM in that instance? Nope. It’s not so black and white.
@@kaderp9043 What you describe is far more black and white than the person you're responding to, so what you're saying feels out of touch with what it's supposed to argue.
If the DM designs the game so that any combat can be deadly, it will happen eventually. It's just a matter of statistics. That's inherent in that type of design, unless the difficulty is very low. And it's the DM who designed it as such. What players do can make it happen sooner or later, but can't prevent it completely, unless the campaign ends before that.
@@HeabSaysNotbf every encounter has a possibility of death if the enemy crits every time and your players miss all the time
@@angstyteen1215and that's why my first combat was almost a TPK because my players couldn't hit the swarms and i kept rolling 17+ on the die constantly
Some character death sessions i’ve DM’d are among the most beautiful i can remember. Making the moment feel special and heroic is the key
I use the 3.5 rules to generate the encounters, so if they die in a random fight I would allow it, but I would telegraph if they should run. I do agree random encounters should add to the theme
Edit: forgot to say 3.5 rules to generate the difficulty of random encounters. 5% of the time you need to run or you might tpk if it is doable, 15% is a deadly fight but 80% of the time it will be hard-easy ^^
Ran a game where I put an item that the party needed. The problem was if they touched the item, it would deal 50d6 damage. There were six puzzles they could solve that would reduce the damage by 5d6 per solution, and it was 18th level so 25d6 would hurt but easily be survivable. Instead the warlock broke the glass case with his staff and grabbed the item. I believe the total damage was 176, so they died basically instantly. Since it was a lich's phylactery, their soul was sucked out and they couldn't be revived until the phylactery was destroyed. It ended up being kind of a Jon Snow moment when I described the warlock's body, hundreds of miles away in the temple where they left him, awakening with a start...
One of the important things i find for a death heavy campaign is making character creation as friction free as possible. And, offer special character creation options as rewards as they go.
Maybe start everyone can only pick human, and if they make allies with an elven village they get a few types of elf and half-elf that are beefier races then phb. Or a unique class/subclass gets opened up after certain conditions
Or say you make friends with a powerful noble or the bandit King - and new characters can have training. Say, a free feat or better stat creation - or even a magic item from that faction.
Also have a, the survivors can turn to a specific recruitment which limits the options in exchange for a known gamble on bonuses for the player who died. (Say, purchasing freedom of a slave/criminal gives a chance at 1) feat 2) +2 strength 3) rogue features as if they had levels equal to proficiency bonuses 4) roll d3 twice and take both 5) when rolling initiative they can spend reaction to dictate what an ally rolls 6) any simple weapon they wield has a damage die one size larger, and they can spend a reaction on hit to make the target vulnerable to the weapon damage of an ally within 15ft
Dying without resurrection may sting, but getting a homebrew class and a beefy monster race could soothe things, however getting those options should be difficult
Prepared in advance, there’s a few things I believe could make death rolls and character deaths “more fun”.
Maybe each death roll gives makes the character recall a cherished memory, a memory about a promise not fulfilled, a memory about a prophecy that fits (or don’t) the situation, or even visions of the future or their true love/desire/dream.
Maybe they make an important connection that was previously hinted. It may be about their past, about the enemy weakness, a hidden property in a magic item that could reverse the situation or something like “the last piece in a puzzle”.
And character deaths can kickstart a few events that shows how they affected the world. New characters may show up after receiving the news, to try to solve mysteries (or create new ones) about the dead character. Old characters come back to fulfill promises, provide support or to even mock the character or group.
There’s a lot of options if you look at anime/manga, series, movies and novels. But again, preparation in advance is recommended to fit each character.
Oooooo I love the memory idea!! I wanna add that you could make the specific pass or fail rolls attribute to good or bad memories. Each success is a good memory, like the warmth of their adventuring group's laughs, the joy of helping the commonfolk, something from their backstory that was good, etc.
Obviously it could vary from character to character, and you can flip it if it's more fitting. Like a character that would be more motivated from revenge or a higher purpose would have vengeful thoughts on success, but soothing memories for failures as they learn to let go of their fading vessel.
The idea of rolling behind the screen for death saves is a must. I actually introduced this to my players a while back after seeing the suggestion hereon CZcams (I think from Bob World Builder). There was some push back and we came to the agreement that they would roll but not let anyone see their rolls. Originally, I said I would roll since their death isn't really in their hands, and it makes more sense for the DM to roll these, since the DM is essentially fate or "god" if you will, but they made the reasonable argument that it is taking one of the most important moments dealing with their character out of their hands, which is understandable.
And this was important because I do have a player that is quite the meta gamer! He has gotten better, but we had a fight that almost turned into a TPK and because of how the others in the party were rolling on their deaths saves, he continued his attacks rather than helping them, even going so far as calculating out loud how many rounds they had and if they roll this or that, he still would have a round to help in necessary as long as it wasn't a critical fail.... definitely not good. As I said, he's gotten better, but it is still hard to totally put information out of your mind once you know.
I disagree with your reasoning for the DM rolling the death saves, so I'm glad your players won there. "Saving throws" are rolls used to resist something externally forced upon the player, so while they're a reaction the player cannot choose not to perform, it still is the player performing them. That means death saving throws aren't the rolls of fate. They're the rolls of the player resisting fate (or maybe "shaping fate" if you believe fate isn't predisposed either way), so it should rightfully be theirs to roll.
@@EricJW As I said, my reasoning was mainly to avoid meta gaming which I have a player who is really big on “winning” everything in D&D and he was calculating the time he had to save people based on their rolls. That is not right. If you have a friend bleeding out on the ground, you are not going to look at them and say, “they can lose two more pints, then I have to save them.” If you are making a sacrifice for the greater good, fine, but he was just playing the odds based on the other player’s rolls and I needed that to stop. A saving throw, you can see the other character made it through the trap or avoided enough damage, so it doesn’t have an effect on the other players in the same way.
Incidentally, he has gotten WAY worse now - trying to win even in conversation with other characters and getting very mad at crappy moral choices by other characters. I have an evil royal that tried to destroy a town that they saved earlier in the campaign - he was so pissed that he turned red, dropped his character’s accent and started arguing with me! I stayed in character before he just shut down and wouldn’t talk. Of course someone in power would find this behavior (being ignored) just as insulting so I had to think of something on the fly to not just have the party executed! The party was let go, but he didn’t seem to care that he just disrespected a royal figure and it could cost the party’s lives if he continues to snub them. He hasn’t figured out that we live in a very gray world and he insists things are black and white. His need to be right in every situation is making the game very difficult.
These feel like Brandon Sanderson's tips on writing, and that is awesome.
good video as always but a completely unrelated point from me here:
i am a dm as well as a browns fan (NFL). as someone who watched johnny stanton during his time in the NFL its so awesome to see him be recognised as a professional dm. love that he's found his calling after football.
@8:00 I totally agree! I have fudged the dice SOOOOO many times that I almost feel bad to make sure that the players didn't die during a "transition" altercation but at the same time they also know that the situations they find themselves in could potentially be fatal, As with when my wizard tried to sneak a magical dagger into the palace of the emperor. Yeah, that didn't workout great for her but it didn't kill her and it didn't' affect the overall story. In fact it helped because now she had to deal with the shame and the physical scars of her transgression." which led to hysterical interactions with the rest of the party. lol. It turned out to be a great time. Point being, a palace would probably have something in place that would instantly kill someone who tried to trespass. Just pay attention to the story, your players, the way you want the story to play out, and then judge if today is the day 'that' player pushed the boundary too far. ;)
Not quite a death, but I once had a character retire mid campaign. I was playing a fighter who's back story was that he was a monster slaying zealot who worked for the the in game equivalent of the Catholic Church after his sister was taken and turned by a vampire. We ended up killing the vampire (and my character's sister) about 2/3 of the way through the story and my character retired and became the mayor of the town that had become our "home base". I ended up with a new character but would occasionally play my previous character when the party needed to interact with him. It was an interesting session end where I was like "guys I think this character is done, his reason for being has changed and I can't see him continuing as an adventurer".
My players are told during session zero that every encounter I design is hard to deadly difficulty. They will have multiple ways to end/defeat/overcome said encounter without reducing the enemies HP to 0, but it's up to them to figure out how.
I reward creative solutions, so even if it's not how I intended the encounters to end, I'll more often than not allow it.
The difficulty, I find, is making death matter and still be scary when they get to the higher levels and can resurrect each other in the event the worst happens.
I usually use a mixture of both a homebrew insanity mechanic and lingering injuries, as well as the development of flaws and/or phobias to hammer in the fact that yes, you all can be brought back to life if you die, but it becomes more difficult to do the more you do it and it always takes something from the characters when they're brought back.
Although my own DM is still somewhat of an amateur, I think he handles character death quite well. I had a character die, and it resulted in a profound expanding of our campaign. There was a chance for my character to come back, but it was going to take effort. I had to go an a separate solo campaign as my dead character, putting in a significant amount of work. I also was forced to sacrifice an NPC character we were quite close with if I wanted to return. The result was an irreversible ability score change (not a buff or debuff, just a change). The experience even changed my character's alignment, from a selfish chaotic neutral to a chaotic good, still highly impulsive, but now feeling like there was somewhat of a karmic imbalance he now had to correct.
Death didn't result in me losing my character, instead, it became part of the overall campaign, bringing about change, sacrifice, and requiring no small amount of effort.
Love the content...maybe bring up some Anthony Burch(Daddie Master of Dungeons and Daddies), I think he does a great job of allowing quasi not serious players, and allowing them to take the reigns but than taking them back...just a suggestion, you do you! Your content is great.
The old tournament rules allowed for players to play multiple characters at once. There was also henchmen that character may have had. Those henchmen would conceivable want to avenge that character's death, or transport their body out of the dungeon. Modern players may loathe hirelings, henchmen, and followers that are usually played by the DM. This is an instance where these NPCs permit a player to retain agency, even after the death of their character.
I've never understood it truthfully. I'm currently in a pirate themed seafaring campaign end the crew I'm a part of recruited and ex pirate ship cook to be our private chef and top deckhand. HE IS OUR FAVORITE CHARACTER IN THE WHOLE CAMPAIGN! He's entirely played by the DM and we love it. Him and one other crew member, both played by the DM, have become 2 of the most important members of the entire campaign party.
Great video, I would just say that as a new person to your vids, I would appreciate a "BTW, this video contains NO spoilers for any campaigns and just discusses techniques"
I didn't even think of that but it does make sense! I will look into implementing this in future videos!
There's two sources I draw from when coming up with how to portray death in games.
The River and The Boatman from classical mythology.
The Black Mountain from Star Trek Lower Decks.
I like to blend these two elements into a clear choice the players get to make when their PC dies. The newly dead PC comes to on the shores of the River. The Boatman is parked on the riverbank nearby. They can board the boat, and the Boatman will take them to the afterlife they belong to. But in the distance, they see Black Mountain. Dark, foreboding, back-lit by infrequent lightning strikes. They can start their journey to the Black Mountain, and hopefully, with enough struggle, suffering, and luck, they might one day return to the world of the living.
So right away, I give players the choice. Retire the character, and they will be ferried across the River by the Boatman. Or start marching up the riverbank towards the fight for your life.
In either case, pull out the character sheet for your backup character. They might be needed to do multiple corpse runs if the party is death spiraling.
In my first ever DnD style game that I played, I had a Glass Cannon of a Sniper (Yes it was WW2 based for a high school project) who was bleeding out and had only one last chance to do anything to be remembered.
So I had my character jump out of cover with his AT riffle, screaming in unintelligible Scottish, and shooting Mecha-Himler in the face before getting pancaked.
It was awesome.
Serious topic aside, folks really love using that Smosh photo of Mercer.
I had a level 17 wizard take on a black dragon. It was a great battle and black ancient won.
This is absolutely great advice...
I just had a session today, where a player decided to mount and try to stay on a giant bird as it flew up 200 ft to throw them off. (While fighting near a 2000ft drop) They somehow managed to pass several contested rolls to stay on it, while also preventing the bird from diving over the edge. I (and their fellow players) made sure to tell them that there was a very real possibility that it went even slightly worse, and they died.
My changeling shadow knife rogue died during an assassination attempt. His second death save brought him back in the fighting pits of xanathars thieves guild.
The dm used this as a tool to teach me the game and more complex encounters and I think it was absolutely fantastic. He even added the main story element boss that I’ve wanted revenge against as the final challenge to escape the pits.
In the future. Will not try to solo kill a noble
brilliant advice !
That thumbnail is crazy
recently, i kill two characters in my table: The were trying to rescue one party member for a orc who was fond of her and pass the time as a slave merchant. in short, there was a fight, the orc (who was actually a demon) kill one member of the party and the rest were shocked. then the second in command, thankfull of them killing said demon but tired of being the second wished to kill the member that was captured. everyone was in silence and i ended the game for that night.
last session i started earlier with the two characters/players that were alive, because i wanted to let them play the sadness, anger and dizzyness of the situation, they were in the middle of nowhere without help, without their cleric (who laid dead on the ground), so i wanted them to act and feel.
I didnt wanted the other two players on the table at that moment because metagaming would influence their playstyle as soon as they were able to bring them back. needless to say but it was such a great rp table
A player in my game named his 3 dog headed humanoid Cerberus. I understood the assignment and we've had single player prequel sessions in dantes inferno style hell
I don't like the idea of a combat with no chance of death, even a random/non-climax combat. If the players get jumped things are going sideways and they don't run away in an already-established "deadly" game, that's on them.
Indeed, from time to time the players should get in way way over their heads - I'd not even shy away from situations they certainly can't at their present level all escape if it turns to combat. As long as there is some reasonable explanation and some expectation set up that something bad could happen - so traversing the really creepy monster filled wood that nobody travels its fine to have the crazy high CR monster as option on the random encounter table - they risked the shortcut and got bitten. So when the Paladin player valiantly sacrifices themselves buying the team time to run and hide it becomes an epic moment and hopefully really impacts all the PC's. However that sort of encounter is not so appropriate when they are walking down the main road between two cities in a fairly peaceful kingdom where the worst you are likely to find is an unsavoury humanoid.
Also worth remembering that while the PC might be 'dead' as far the party that did escape saw they don't have to be - lots of reasons they might have been fixed up - for interrogation as an example.
I've noticed when my characters die, either it is a new character I am feeling out, or it's that SHTF situation where severe mistakes have been made
Once upon a time, I had a DM who considered character death was optional, based on our gameplay ( I was NEW to roleplaying so healing pally) . I learned resurrect and true rez as soon as they were available
One of my favorite DM’s I’ve ever listened to that has a totally opposite DM so for me where I’m very lighthearted and forgiving is Shane from season two of awful stupid. He claimed first off that there are worse things than death and also that death is never the end. I usually end up telling my players they’ll be some sessions where I probably will not let your PC die like in the middle of the three session dungeon crawl because we meet every week and I don’t want you to sit out for one week or two weeks some sessions like at the end of the dungeon crawl where my player was just rolling straight threes where I was on in might die here the homebrew monster I made of your own personal shadow can see that you are bloody and it knows your hit points because it is an exact copy of you. It is lawful evil and it’s trait. Marry, yours to T and much like you would want to take care of this the fastest way possible by killing the enemy with the lowest HP. Your shadow reflection is also gonna target you if you cannot beat this wisdom, save to snap out of the minor illusion.
I use Homestuck rules. Death doesn't stick unless it is Heroic or Just.
Why? That takes the game our of the game.
@@archersfriend5900 I didn't say they don't get punished for it, just that they don't stay dead. Also, this doesn't apply to all my campaigns, but it is my default option.
@@MudakTheMultiplier serious question. I have players that would prefer non lethal campaigns. I just have no idea how to do it and still make choices matter.
@@archersfriend5900 make the stakes in battle not being death. Have them be captured and lose gear or resources. Have their enemies get some advantage afterwards (maybe the goblin king steals the paladin's sword, now the party has an excuse to try and go back for revenge) or maybe the BBEG gets another step of his plan completed. Just as your party doesn't have to kill everyone, neither do the enemies. In one campaign I did a house rule that nobody dies unless the attacker specifically wants them to die, and most enemies wouldn't. This made failure not nearly as all or nothing as a TPK.
@@MudakTheMultiplier lol, I have run hundreds of 5e games. Nothing close to a tpk. I think once characters are past fifth level a tpk is pretty much impossible unless you drastically troll the players. I have never had a party even consider surrender. As for stealing characters stuff, I don't know how you actually pull it off without possession or suggestion something like that. I mostly run sandboxes where the players drive the story. They also control balance by deciding how they interact with stuff. I agree it would be awesome capturing a character, but then you have a split party or one player twiddling their thumbs while everyone else is participating. Hey, I really appreciate you time and thoughts, thanks.
Well I let my players know I run a dark high fantasy.
(1) actions and choices has consequences.
(2) there is resurrection but it's not easy it is practically a quest in itself and then there is a ritual you'll have to do and someone will die "a life for a life"
(3) combat can be very brutal.
There will be trauma both physically and mentally.
On crit hits you can be wounded this includes but not limited to bleeding out, severed limbs, deep scars, burns etc.
There is magic but it's limited in away that mages are not very common about a couple hundred thousand planer wide and it a very big plane. And on top of that it's not very safe to cast spells the Arcanes Inquisition will hunt you down capture you at best or just kill you out right.
Recovering from damage there is 3.
Quick rest: it's about an hr and has to be someplace of relative safty.
And it will only recover hp only.
Short rest that is 3days and you'll recover hp and spells but not from your wounds.
Long rest: it has to be in a place of safty like a town or city and it is a week maybe you'll need two if your wounds are that bad. But you'll get everything back hp, spells and fill recovery.
Keep in mind this effects your enemies too.
This game really is fuk around and find out.
But can't make a dark high fantasy without the real threat of death and consequences.
Plus there is no good or evil everything is morally gray.
Sure there maybe situation, characters, or PCs that is clearly good or evil. But the situations that might happen might be harder to tell and if you're not into this my game isn't for you.
I like to creat things with impact and meaning.
I hate theos player who be casting fireballs and burning down the entire town and somehow think they're the good guys!?
It doesn't seem like there isn't enough consequences.
And to much this is definitely good and this is definitely evil.
When the player has to stop and ask "are we the badies?" Then I know I'm doing good.
However I do give you help by giving 5 points per game session.
You can uses one of these point to reroll on anything but you don't get that back until the next game session. 😊
I love Matt Colville's idea of giving your players henchmen who they can turn into player characters. Players will be invested in multiple characters, so dying feels more like your secondary character of choice gets an upgrade. Meanwhile, you get to boss your henchmen around, give them tasks to do, even put them on lower-level quests
I recall Sandy Peterson (the original designer of Call of Cthulhu) would give his players three chances/clues before killing the players. This allowed them to learn and push their luck, but the danger was signposted. This was used quite well in one-shot scenarios.
"Should not die in low stakes combat" - this and more. In my last campaign, in a first floor dungeon, my character tried to drink some water from a well. That resulted in some pain and acid damage. My cleric tried to give me fresh bottled spring water, and that caused a chemical explosion that brought me to -11 hp. Two low stakes non-combat situations leading to character death.... At least the campaign was fun up to that point.
That last point about not knowing how it could effect you, I agree with 100%. My 1st real DnD game, we played Curse of Strahd. Another player and I decided to make toons that were twins: Trouble and Strife, the Tiefling Bard, Rogue duo. About 7 months in, Trouble died. She got mouthy with Strahd and he ripped her throat out (basically) and Strife could do nothing but watch as he was surrounded by dire wolves at the time and in a world of hurt himself. It fucking broke me. For months I was a mess, I started drinking, heavily. I'd wake up screaming, drenched in sweat and tears. Just remembering it now, I have a lump in my throat and tears welling in my eyes and to this day I refuse to make another character that is related to another pc. I can't do that again. However, do I regret it the 1st time round? Not at all. It made for some truly intense and emotional rp moments, some that even ended (fake) friendships irl. And while that does sound like a bad thing, it was in fact for the best in this instance. I'm not suggesting this as a course of action for anyone, just describing the unintended consequences of what was simply, a pc death.
What I learnt from that game tho was to let go of my attachment to my toons. In that game I was so committed to keeping Strife alive so he could get his sister back, or revenge were that impossible, that it was stressful. And while I don't just "Leeroy Jenkins!!!" into every encounter now with no sense of self preservation, taking the Ivan Drago stance of "If they die, they die" with my characters has been liberating in its own way.
Also, on a side note. I may be alone in this but I really don't mind sitting out a few sessions after my toon dies or leaves. I'd much rather my new toons intro be natural than rushed. It feels kinda cheap to me to have 1 toon leave/die and have your new toon enter in the same session. Like theres a revolving door of adventures in the world that just so happen to be in the same place? It's a bit "meh" imo, but like I said, I may be alone in that (like everything else)
4:45 So, the problem I have with having death saves be hidden, is that the death saves are there SPECIFICALLY to give the other players some wiggle room to do something about it. Removing that information, removes that wiggle room, which defeats the point of the death saves; at that point, the player might as well make ONE save, and that's all they get; 50/50 odds of whether they live or die.
Did Sam Regal have a hand in the thumbnail? Cuz ya'll did Matt dirty using a still from his Smosh appearance 😅
We have one hard rule concerning death at our table -- it never happens as the result of an unlucky dice roll, but as a logical consequence of the player's choices. Players don't always know if they're putting themselves into a potentially deadly situation, but the GM does announce at the beginning of the episode that it COULD happen, so everyone should pay special attention, and consider their character's words and actions carefully.
One way to help a player continue to participate while making a new character -- do flashback scenes the next week.
I do believe a big factor in what made Mollymauk Tealeaf a great and memorable character was the way he died, where Matt described the situation very gravely, gave Taliesin the opportunity for Molly to have last words and also gave the other players a real goal for the next sessions: avenge him
I gotta say, opening youtube and seeing a thumbnail of Brennan with the giant label "consequences" over his head is less surprising than I thought
🤣
As a DM I’ve killed 2 players. The first was a wizard who bit it to a white dragons breath attack. He was pissed. The other died fighting an avatar of Chtulu at Yesterhill. He was ecstatic to roll up another character.
Tip: if you want to show danger, just sample the danger. Make the players boss fight encounter with a golem, then when FOUR of those golems show up there's a frame of reference
The link 🔗 to your discord server isn't working 😢
My most recent character had his companion flung into him by a vine monster and the companion being a 2ft tall goblin exploded on impact (he was at 3hp, a wizard and took 31 points of damage at level 3)
Oooph! Insta-death.
What about when the dm kills your pc because you picked a fight with the random dude who shadow stepped into your friend's hotel room unannounced and he gives you the Thanos treatment only to be revealed afterwards that he was actually a god of death for some reason?
I'm not salty
1 Get resurrected. 2 Get very good in particle phisics. 3. "You are now death, destroyer of wolrds" 4. Friendship
It's a bit difference for PCs in one-shots, but for PCs in extended campaigns this is good advice :)
I'll agree about grieving a character. I spent months building a character and background and everything, and after a few sessions when they died...i was fk'ing devistated. My bro in law/DM still talks to me hella gently when I bring it back up, because like 10 years later...i still bring it up. i loved that mfr!
Your own point in the end is very very good ❤
My players don't mind seeing the death saves, but only because they've seen a player go from no pass or failed saves to insta-dead because an AoE put them deep in the negative and killed them outright, or they got caught in a flurry of little hits and got stacked up on failed saves, getting mauled to death... That being said, my players also keep a cleric handy and 3 of them have the Acolyte background that span various types of gods so the temple should always be willing to help. They have a hard time staying dead after the worthy encounters.
I've only had one group of deaths that were permanent as it was all but a TPK save for 1 dude who convinced the enemy to let them go as a sole survivor and another who stabilized and managed to walk away alive after recovering naturally when everyone else thought they died. Both surviving players decided to pick up new characters with the new party and I got a couple of colorful characters I can reintroduce as NPCs later, one with a cowardly streak and one more scarred and battle-weary. While they were kicking themselves for dying, the party fully understood the consequences of bringing that enemy to their doorstep the way they did and didn't get mad about it.
I always let them know from session 0 that death is possible, and even likely with brutal and often dramatic combat. But resurrection is often forgiving when against regular combat and when it isn't, it's impactful, and my players seem to love that.
I have a homebrew rule for character deaths: Death saving throws stick, and they only go away via long rests. Also, the Medicine check and the DC to determine a death save’s success go up by 2 each time a character falls and gets back up, only going down by 2 once each long rest, and never going below 10. That way, the stakes are higher, and I can explain it in-universe as the near-death experiences making the character frail, and taking some time to fully recover.
There's no way to make death saving throws "stick" unless you're only doing it for failures, which seems pretty shitty IMHO. Otherwise if a Character succeeds all 3 and stabilizes, then they're going to immediately restabilize if they go down again.
I get the idea here, but why not just give people levels of exhaustion of you want to stop the back and forth of healing unconscious party members?
@@HeabSaysNo I'm doing it for failures.
@@HeabSaysNo How does exhaustion solve that? It just makes them more likely to go down again. And if you want to make it more punishing, well, that's the argument you're arguing against.
The main problem the way I see it is that healing is too weak to be used on anything other than downed characters. It's almost always better to do something else. That's by design, but I'm not sure that's a good design.
Ever tried Pathfinder 2E? When you die you get something very similar to what you just described.
I've run like two games before, in one game a player died sacrificing himself fighting a lovecraftian old God as a goblin paladin. I made sure to describe him watching the portal everyone else used to escape close while he hacked off tentacles and eyestalks, until he finally got eaten.
Haven't had a death yet, I have plans. First absolutely it should be cinematic. But I will look them dead in the eye and ask if they still want to play the character. It will inform the decision on how it affects the story and what I need to prep for next session.
You are planning character deaths, why? That's not much of a game.
@@archersfriend5900 A "if it happens" scenario. I am not outright planning on killing the PCs. There is nothing worse than one person at the table straight up not having fun. And if someone takes an unlucky death save roll, I don't want to stop the game like some deer in the headlights.
The cuts at the start hurts my brain
I've had multiple die in one campaign, one to an insane nat20 roll at level 2 from an enemy that was only on the field for one turn, another from a weak mind controlled other player that the party just didn't deal with.
Hast round I TPKed my party with a very manageable encounter which has an instant kill aura (Bodak), because everyone rolled a 2 or 1 in the first check. This was not their fault at all. Simply insanely bad luck, thus I decided to just let them pass out but gave them a second chance. I think death still need to be fun and hopefully heroic.
Why? Death is random and unexpected most of the time. That means you are actually planning when it's ok for a pc to die.
Playing dnd with no threat of death is the most boring game in the world to me. It is like rollplaying you are 6 years old and just realising people are just letting you win. You know the DM is fudging, you know nothing matters. It's actually really depressing to me.
I’ve been running a Spelljammer campaign for around 10 months now. No deaths for the first 8 months. Then my players board a devil’s spelljammer and get into some trouble. Long story short 3 character deaths in 3 sessions. 2 by one player. The other player was very new and got mad that he died so early but sadly he got himself in a bad position and antagonized the devil… he left the group after that session… 😢
5:50 I would like to put a BIG MASSIVE WARNING LABEL HERE.
Two fold,
Firstly: Make sure to let the player roll their own death saves, PLEASE. if they are gunna die, let them roll it.
Secondly: Not all players take an unknown as a reason to get you up faster, they could just completely disregard it like you always stabilize so be CERTAIN your party is the kind to actually act upon that.
Played in a game where a DM implemented this rule mid-campaign and it went south for my character very hard and it felt like absolute BS and was not fun at all, which was especially worsened by the party we were playing with and how they ruled it.
Although, I will say, as a DM myself I go the other direction, I make the death saving throws front and forward and get them to roll it in front of everyone so that they KNOW that they are running out of time.
I died a few months ago in my first dnd campaign and I was discouraged from making a new character from the DM making the death like nothing happened, he just moved on for 9 hours with everyone else. I sat there with not any word said to me for all that time, there was no character acknowledgment, not even anyone else around when my character died. I miss dnd but that’s the only group I know so I couldn’t play again
Back in ad&d days characters died, we just roll another . They died a lot.
I miss those days.
I normally roll the first death save in private and the other two death saves are up to the player. I want the tension. But I do let my players know if the encounter is deadly or not.
I just change the flavor. 0 death saves is like unable to fight (still concious but all of your strength is gone type deal) so like sink to your knees after a big hit type deal, 1 is totally collapsed on the ground but responsive (can still talk quietly, move eyes, etc but can't raise an arm or support themselves), 2 is totally unconscious and dying, 3 is dead still obviously
Our DM told us first session: write a backup character. He then took my backup character and changed him for Story reasons so I had to make a new one 😂.
Almost all of us were killed in one session so we just played escape death in the underworld... that was fun!
Years ago in the days of "White Box Edition" guy kept getting his 1st level character
killed, he finally got to 2nd level, he was so happy, until the party's first encounter
WITH A GROUP OF KOBOLD'S the kobold rolled two 20s and he got to roll a another new character.
Sorry I dont have any eaiser monsters than that...
you should read all guardsman party and find crazy man who run that pc where droping like each 5 minutes
10:44 Me as a DM who has had a history with death
Honestly, I go about avoiding it as much in the games I run and highly encourage players to come up with non-combat solutions to things.
This may be unpopular opinion but The Corridor crew has the best D&D I’ve watched
Honestly they got me hooked to it
2:00 players are kind of used to dead bodies so I'd suggest taking this one step further and taking the time to describe that a character notices that one of the bodies has the same armour/weapon as them and it didn't do them any good
That why you should build unoptimizing characters, like giving a very low con making him die easily.
DMs loves it when your character dies instantly, it means that the fight they set up is challenging for the players.
we play dnd online, and everyone rolls their death saves with an irl d20
we have some players that are absolutely fine with character death, and some that would rather quit the campaign after, than to make a new character
having the roll completely private basically is intended as "if you really are not ok with your character dying, you can cheat the roll"
no one will know about it, and no one is able to judge
theres no proof, and in the end, everyone is happy
I do feel that at a certain point in the campaign you have been with a character for so long that killing them off would feel weird.
i’m speaking from the perspective of a veteran-ish (four years under my belt) player. i’ve never had any of my characters die, but honestly? i wouldn’t take it too hard. i think it is an important part of any rpg. if your character is going into dangerous situations and fighting formidable enemies, there’s a good chance that one day they’ll meet an enemy they can’t beat. i think that understanding makes a game more grounded and has players put more effort into the game. letting them know that their characters aren’t immortal and that there are ramifications for their decisions makes the game 10 times better. again, ive never dm’ed. my point of view is that of someone who’s played a decent amount of the game.
Man…. Not that you should do it often but… character death is a huge part of the game you’re missing out on. Your players will go through a lot of emotions and bond together.
Hard disagree about the tip around 8:40. Random encounters can be deadly. If there's no risk of death, why play out the encounter? If your characters are fundamentally invulnerable and regain all their resources immediately afterward, you could save time and have as much fun by asking your players in what way they curbstomp a trivial encounter.
Not that random encounters need to be deadly to be fun- a good random encounter may be an opportunity to regain resources, gather information, or get a feel for what life is like in a location. But if you are taking initiative and rolling to attack in a bandit gang encounter, those enemies should be capable of at least potentially knocking out and robbing them. If the bandits are being played sympathetically, they would possibly avoid killing because they are farmers robbing just to survive through a year where they had a bad harvest. If they are hardened year round brigands- professional thieves and murderers- they should be going out of their way to ensure there are no witnesses, knowing the noose may be a kinder fate than what awaits them if they are reported and hunted down by the proper authorities.
Maybe im in the minority, but i only run permadeath campaigns. No resurrections, but if the players are quick enough i do allow resuscitation under certain circumstances.
I give plenty of 'outs' and am upfront about how brutal a campaign might be. But. My rule is. If that's how the dice fall, then that's how they fall. No Deus Ex Machinas. So I don't actively kill my players. But I tell them: I will let you die.
I will say this much, I have never seen hidden death saves actually make a game more engaging. I've had sessions where a party member went down, got a nat 1 on the first save and failed the second killing them on round 2. There are no dramatic last words no final bretah actions they just bleed out and neither the dm nor player have any reaction because its supposed to be secret. My Mercy monk gets freed up enough to run over and heal them only for me to be told they are already dead. My immediate thought isn't "oh the humanity they died before I could get to them" its "well crud I just wasted my turn for nothing in a game where turns can be 15 minutes apart".
The game I've played in for almost 30 years now is run in a very violent, very hardcore world, and any encounter from level 1 to as high as you want to go, can potentially be very deadly. Knowing that and living by it is how people survive. You skirt around as much as you can, spy on the other guys and scout where possible to reduce the unknown factors and increase your character's chances of survival. And death is not always permanent, but it is most often, so whether your PC may be valiant, dastardly, brave, cowardly, bold, timid, heroic, or villainous, they should above all...be careful.
I have one PC kill under my belt. The players were in combat with a demon that is driven to destroy the “most beautiful “ things it can find. Naturally, it went after our highest Charisma nun character. She got dropped pretty quick because this thing was pretty monstrous at their level. After getting healed, the player says “I stand up and punch it”. I explained to him, in no uncertain terms that it goes after the most beautiful things, and it thought she had been dropped and moved on to other combatants.
Are you sure you want to do this???
He still mad about that character.
Who wants to listen to a good story? Well! One of my players realized that her character was coming into contact with a different version of herself from a parallel universe. Told the player this felt "wrong" and was excedingly stressful for her character. The kind of stress I underline with 40 mental damage. She stops only after I get the character to faint after a failed save. She was super curious about this though and wasn't able to understand why I was being so overdramatic with it. The group moves on until a cataclismic magic reaction nearly obliterates a room they are about to move into. Three figures appear from a different realm, announcing themselves as protectors of time and space and adjucating the character as a grave danger to the dimension and time-space itself, a danger they cannot risk to let go alive. Combat starts and I clearly tell the table, these enemies make an effort to only attack this character with all their power. All that happens to the others is being pushed away or separated from the "culprit". A few horribly mean rolls later, the three enemies have the character to 0 hitpoint and I have the OPPORTUNITY to just have the combat progress throught the death saves as the enemies try to restrain the rest of the party. But I don't. "For crimes against time and space, attempted destabilization and collapse of dimensions, We sentence you to death." Her head gets chopped right off. Players stare at me in shock. The "culprit" is silent, looks at me, doesn't blink. Enemies vanish after the trial is over. I am ready for my very OUT OF GAME death by stoning. One of the players very much into character asks "Is there anything we can do?" I have the other roll Arcana and find maybe one of the characters they met might know a ritual to resurrect their friend. Resurrection was no easy thing though, it took an entire day, expensive pesonal sacrifices and wasn't even sure to bring the dead back. It required an extremely strong bond between them and the beheaded hero. All of them had to sacrifice something important to show devotion to the death god and had to think about they're most precious and loving moments together to locate their friend's soul in the Boneyard. Sort of a backwards funeral now that I think of it. The ritual succeeds, the dead character comes back to life with a grisly scar all around her neck but able to recollect everything her friend said, making it an amazing growth moment for their relationship. It also saved MY life but nobody seemed as grateful for it.
Personally every fight has the potential for death. Dont ever have any fight that death isnt possible. There is nothing to learn, nothing at risk, nothing heroic in just killing things that have no hope of killing you. Superman is kewl and all, but the real hero is Batman, who risks his own life for others every night, superman doesnt even usually have to risk a headach to be the so called hero. My players know what they do can kill them, but they also feel helping others is often worth that risk, they make the choices, I do not railroad my players, so rarely is there a fight they didnt choose themselves. If there is ever games where players cannot die then that mean no matter happens the stupid story the DM is telling will happen, their choices simply dont matter at all. I set a scene in the world, and they interact inside that world, making choices, etc I dont force story lines, but also stories continue even if they choose not to interact with them. This has often led to situtations ignored by the players resulting in deaths that could have been prevented, and thats on them, in the end they tend to make more good decisions than bad, and tend to feel like the heroes they are though, all the while knowing they were in charge of their own lives, all the decisions really are theirs. Im not telling them a story that they kinda get to say how they get to where I want them, no, they tell me what they are doing and the world reacts as it would in real life. The focus is always on them, I mean when you think about your characters, your always the lead guy, hard to believe that if the DM is rattling off whats happening and you have plot armor so it "will" happen no matter what you end up doing.
Yeah my group is harsh, they said they wanted a tough and challenging campaign with deadly consequences. We are on session 5 and I've had 3 character deaths thus far and nearly had a 4th because they chose hard mode and then play like it's easy mode instead of strategically 😂
I've been treating PCs, and even NPCs going down as essentially an incapacitation that requires triage. The players have to roll to see if they can stop the bleeding or otherwise stabilize themselves, or other characters. This removes the meta gaming aspect and makes death saving throws feel a touch more immersive.
So I really don't like rolling death saving throws in secret. I think that it can be great for more experienced, more mature, and more tactically minded parties, but it should not be the standard. It should certainly not be given out as advice to newer parties.
Sure it can make a situation more tense, by forcing players to act out of imperfect information, and rush to save a character who may only have one roll left to go. However it can also remove tension, as less tactically minded players figure "it's probably fine" and tunnel vision on doing damage. If it's tension that you really care about, then I have to ask, Which of the following scenarios is more tense? A) A player's second death saving throw, that is probably fine because they only have a 5% chance of being at two failed saves, or B) a players final chance at life, because they rolled a natural 1 last turn?
We also need to keep in mind the information that is lost between the characters and the players. A character who is at 2 succeeded saving throws should probably look different from a character who critically failed their first throw. Maybe the former breathing heavily, rolling around, screaming, and trying to pull themselves back together. While the latter is just, not moving.
However I think we should set tension and meta-gaming aside, because what is really important, is what secret rolls do to the player making them. A character death can be an emotional experience. Especially for new players, or players who haven't experienced it before. When we are telling a player to roll they death saving throws in secret, what we are doing is taking a player who is potentially having a strong emotional reaction to the game, and telling them to go and sit in the corner, and not talk about what they are going through, because it would be metagaming. This also prevents players from asking their friends for help, when they feel like they need it.
Did you have to use the picture of Matt from the Smosh episode, where his mouth is full of water? Truly evil.
I'm all for random encounters being deadly. We already take out random chance, cancer, being hit by a drunk drider, heart attack, but imagine being a group of heroes and the tank just fails two con saves against giant spider bites in the woods. Hours from diamonds and the party just didn't have a cleric. It might be mistakes, it might be an encounter where the element of surprise makes a huge difference. I think that makes it more real (and I understand the irony in that when talking about fantasy). THIS IS MY OPINION, all the other opinions stated and not stated on the matter are equally valid and can work for your table.
7:35 most resurrection spells require a soul to be willing to come back from the dead.
This is very true!
8:50 I strongly support this. One of my characters recently ALMOST died to a random plant creature. Not quite a random encounter, but more of an optional encounter in a dungeon. I'm not opposed to that character dying - I have some plans for if he does, but that felt potentially anti-climactic (even more so because my character was knocked out very early because of bad saves). I don't blame the DM for this, he's running a module, but it was still mildly frustrating.
That said, many of my PCs have died at least once - one of them even five times - and it makes for some really great moments. You don't need to be afraid of character death.
Also 10:00 the brain can't really distinguish between feelings over a fictional situation, and feelings over a real situation. It all feels real to the brain. So yes, giving people, PCs and players alike, a chance to grieve is great.
My players play icrpg… so if they die. They go to Ghost Mountain. The icrpg world of purgatory. And have to do a whole campaign of getting back to the living.
I killed one of my players with a random encounter recently. It was balanced on paper but they suffered some of the worst luck imaginable and the monsters didn't roll below a 10 the whole fight.
If you are not attached to the PC's at all as the DM and the Players don't care either, you are probably running lethal encounter dungeon crawl all the time where the PC are not important at all - just game token in the boardgame for this evening. I know I don't even remember the few character I've played in that sort of one shot very well.
But I remember the PC's from the longer campaigns I've run even if I was the DM not the player - as in those situations they really should take on personalities and evolve as the sessions progress, becoming much more real than just a game token and then its very understandable for the player to really feel it.
Have you tried playing oldschool D&D
Not yet!
@@BonusAction Do take the opportunity too if you can. It's a whole different game & way of thinking.
I am interested in how they get away with killing their players, I have this one player, this might be useful.