BISCUIT JOINT TRICK: You've Probably Never Seen This Before
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- čas přidán 28. 03. 2018
- Plunging biscuit slots into pre-glued joints offers big advantages. Click to see how it works and how it can improve your woodworking.
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Always good to pick up a new trick or two.
Thanks Steve.
I've been a joiner 34yrs, i clicked on this expecting to have seen it before, I haven't, that's new to me, I don't know when I'll ever use it but I'll try to keep it in mind n it's nice to learn new things.
Look up spline joints. Those techniques are perfectly acceptable.
Love this, I'll show it to my high school woodshop classes. I do tree work on the weekends, bring the wood in to mill and we build projects from the logs we mill.
Thanks, Steve. I've enjoyed articles done by you in Canadian Woodworking mag for years and I've just bought a biscuit joiner. This could come in very handy. I appreciate your sharing of your knowledge as always.
Good idea, now I'm headed to town to get some gravy for my biscuits. You done slung a cravin on me!
I like the spring clips, good tips. Thanks mate
I'm with you Gary, made all sorts of mitre joints for more years than I care to remember using only conventional methods, first with dowels now with biscuits and never had a problem.
Great use of the miter. I’m new at woodworking and appreciate all tips!!
What a great idea !!! Thanks Steve for sharing.
I like it. A very practical tip. Thanks for sharing.
Very handy. I had been looking for a suitable solution for making an oak mirror frame..
This is that solution! Thank you.
Thank you Glen Crandall !
A brilliant and a very clever trick, joint re-inforce.
Great tip ! Thank you
Nice! Thank you!!
Very good trick! Thank you.
Nice ob mate! I have a biscuit jointer and have never used it and you have inspired me.
Great technique for using biscuits. Thanks 👍
Excellent. Thanks for posting such interesting info...
Very good tip Steve! Now I have to purchase a biscuit joiner, thanks!!....... :)
Very cool tip. Thanks for sharing it.
It really makes me think of picture framing the way they do corners. One warehouse I worked at had a picture framing machine that was a pneumatic press that pushed framer's corrugated metal corner fasteners.
This is really good stuff I love good quality Craftsmanship something you don’t see very often anymore
That's cool... will try this
Very good. I own a set of the spring clamps and have always used them in finish carpentry.
Hi Steve, I’ve been using biscuits like that for years, especially on thin picture frames.
Cheers mate
Good tip Thanks
Perfect !! Nice ! Nice! teknik .
Thanks for sharing. Cheers from Brasil.
Hi Steve,
i've also inserted biscuits into the face of the miter before to ensure proper thickness alignment. this still allows for some lateral movement along the tangent in conjunction with a smaller biscuit.
your technique is a great addition to counter that lateral movement once the glue has set . thanks for that tip
cheers
mike
I used the same technique when I built a picture frame - I only sank half of the biscuit so the cuts were exactly the size I needed . After sanding them down I got a nice finished frame and the biscuits even left a good visual pattern
It’s a viable technique not heresy. Thanks for your demonstration, I’ve subscribed.
I like it, I can think of some applications I can use it on. Do you have a video on how to make the pyramide. I could do that right away? Thanks for sharing your knowledge
Cool tip! I just found your channel. Subscribed!
Good tip, thanks for uploading!
I just subscribed to your channel as well.
Great tip for a super strong miter. Thanks, Steve.
Good idea, using a biscuit as a cross-grain spline. And good to note the risk of glue jointing on a 45* miter of HARDWOOD. Cherry is not thirsty.
That said, I have some cherry pieces I made in high school more than forty years ago. Just glued, no reinforcement at all. Still together. But that was edge grain, not a 45* miter that's halfway to end grain. Important difference.
The other difference everyone seems to ignore is these are caps for newel posts. Newel posts get a lot of sideways stress. The caps will be pulled sideways but also twisted atop the post frame. Every day, for years. That's like the slow, inexorable grinding of the Colorado River that etched the Grand Canyon. Thousands of little stress events over many years at different humidity levels. I think the idea of adding a spline joint across the miter is smart, and this biscuit idea is a thoughtful way to do it. Great use of available tools. Quick, too. I also like that this leaves this part of the cap with no hardware to cause surprises later when a finishing nail might curve sideways.
Thanks for the tip.
Hello, from italy, very cool video and tutorial ...
I'm looking for information about the "micro biscuits" you mention in your video. I have an application where I need very small biscuits to join together blocks of wood about 2" square making a chess board. Can you show more about the micro biscuit joiner you use?
I had a project like this a few years ago (thick stock with only the edges visible) I used pocket holes on both sides, that held up well and had the advantage of clamping force from both sides on the joint.
Pocket holes are good as well if you have the surface area to justify it.
Nice tip. You have a new subscriber.
Where can one purchase that clip tool with clips. That looks like a must for picture framing. I like the transverse biscuits which seem to look like splines to keep joint from slipping if glue fails. May try on canvas stretchers
Great tip Steve, thanks for sharing it.
Neat tip Mr Maxwell 👍
Hi Gary!
Thanks for letting me know.
Take care,
Steve
Zar Bin Tar my stuff or Steve Maxwells stuff? His stuff is cool though 👍
I'm surprised by all those who don't understand the point of this technique. He's creating a frame with four corners glued together from 45* miters. The frame is fairly small, meaning there will be no 'flex' allowing him to glue up one corner at a time. Which means he's going to have to either glue the frame sides into pairs and then the two pairs into a whole frame, or, more likely, he'll want to glue up all four corners at the same time. To prevent the mitered corners from coming apart, he wants to reinforce the joint with at least four biscuits in each corner. His experience is that the biscuits swell too quickly to make the glue up of multiple corners feasible. So, he's chosen this approach to add the biscuits after the miters have been glued up. It gives him the time he needs to get the fit he wants and still lets him reinforce the joint.
Some have suggested that glue is sufficient. Maybe, but recall that these are 45* miter joints. That's not quite, but pretty close to, gluing end grain to end grain. That's why even light duty items like picture frames often have their miter joints reinforced. Basically, he's using the biscuits to create a splined miter joint. That's a fairly strong joint. It is probably stronger than if he'd used the biscuits in the traditional manner. So, if he finds this method easier and it works for him, why not?
Actually he already did the glue up before this , he is just using these for additional strength
Correct. But, the complaint many were making is that he should have used the biscuits the 'correct way', in their traditional orientation. Their argument is that this would allow the biscuits to both align and strengthen the joints. His argument is, with 4 biscuits in each joint, there's simply not enough time to glue up the frames with the biscuits in their traditional orientation. (He's tried it. I've not. I suggest we take his word that its at least very difficult if not impossible.) So, his method allows him to use biscuits to reinforce the joints while still getting the accuracy he wants.
David Walser. I hear what you say but it is not really like a splined mitre joint because the spline in a splined mitre joint glues long grain to long grain where this application still ends up gluing the biscuit onto more or less end grain. It will obviously add a lot of strength to joint - particularly when using two for each joint as he does - but a proper spline would offer much more strength. That said it seems to me that the finished product includes so many additional glued (and possible nailed) on layers that I cannot imagine that there will ever be a problem with the mitred joints coming apart anyway, but this way of using biscuits will never be stronger that the traditional way of using biscuits, as you suggest, simply because of the lack of long grain glue surfaces.
The strength of the glue isn't important with this method. The biscuit physically stops the pieces from sliding. It functions more like an odd-shaped pin than like a biscuit. Like any pin, it only works for one plane of movement, but gluing the other pieces to this assembly provides plenty of edge grain gluing surface for the other two planes of movement.
I know I'm late to the conversation, but I just wanted to agree with David on this, and note that Steve doesn't actually say it's about glue-up time-use Titebond III and put in the fridge before you need it and there's plenty enough open time to finesse four miters. What he's avoiding with this technique is the mechanical interference that a traditionally used biscuit would introduce. No biscuit joiner has the granular alignment potential of fingertips and hand pressure, and by reinforcing the joint later, and burying 80% of the biscuit in the slots, he's creating far more glue surface. I build furniture by hand all day, every day, and this is something I'll be adding to my tool belt with zero qualms about its effectiveness. Nice tip. Thank you.
Personally biscuits 🍪 should only be used with a cuppa tea lol
Cheers
Tim from wood 4 nothing
I think this may be the one scenario where biscuits may actually add strength since it's an entirely endgrain glue up. I'd just use dowels, but I also don't make hundreds of these
Nice video. What do you call those heavy wire things that temporarily held your corners in place, the ones you apply or remove with those special pliers? I'd like to have a set.
good idea and thanks. Nice & quick too. Slightly off topic: how did you attach the cap to your post? i see the square piece would fiit inside the post nicely, but how do you fix it? Glue? There is no way of hiding screws. Cheers from Northumberland Northern England.
Good idea. I would probably put a biscuit as near to the toe as possible in the traditional way, and do the second biscuit as you have done. Thanks
Nice tip. I'd like to see the micro biscuit joiner. Who makes those?
How things change, and often they do get better. Biscuit jointers are far more convenient than dowels indeed. In my days as a woodworker, I would use a spade bit and bore a hole 1/4" inch deep into the mating angles. Then I would use a hole saw and cut out a similar diameter wafer from a 1/4" piece of plywood and glue it in. That was my "biscuit". I found that no else did that, and felt that this was one of my secret weapons! 😁 Well...now everyone has a biscuit; oh well! Also your pin holes from your angle clamps; get a small irrigation syringe and put a drop of water into the hole blemish. Then put a moist rag over the hole and use a hot iron over the moist rag. Less than two minutes later...NO HOLE! Then just lightly sand...Take a bow! 😉
Festool domino and you are done in a heartbeat
Would the Domino allow for perfect joints though. He has those mitres perfect.
Where do I purchase a pair of those clip pliers?What is the brand?Great video Steve,thanks,Will.
If you don’t have the mini biscuit joiner can you use normal size and have the other biscuits more to the inside?
If you brush some of the sawdust into the ends of the slots and sand before the glue dries, the spaces would disappear
My father was a joiner in the mid-1900s and he had several volumes of carpentry/joinery construction books. In them, it told of many types of construction for doors, panels etc. they also showed site setting out and things ou would think carpenters/joiners woudn't need to know but if you ever ask a site manager where he/she started they will probably say carpentery/joinery.
Very nice technique. Would it also work if you used a large forstner bit to drill a very shallow hold (1/8") on top of the 45 degree joint and glue on a round piece? Seems like that would give it quite a bit of strength as well.
It would need to be a large round piece and that then may take away from the actual surface area of the joint.
I would say experiment with it. What you could do is use the drill and mortise out a small channel and then put a small floating tenon that would be similar to the biscuit joint.
Where do you find the corner tool? Awesome video, I would continue to do these short tip videos- very well presented and useful information.. link to amazon and become affiliate.. makes it easier for us to find and you make little extra $$ for your time.. just a thought??
Nice technique. Thanks
"slake the thirst of the wood" Hemingway couldn't have said it better! Although I'm inclined to agree with Mr. Rawlins. Mother Nature will always find a way to derail our best laid plans. It's the tree"s revenge!
Hi K H,
Thanks for your note.
I was thinking back to when I first used this technique and I realized is was in 1987, when I made a removable crown holding frame that sits on top of a cherry wardrobe I made. Those four joints are still holding tight.
Bye for now and thanks for watching!
Steve
Ever try a blind spline? Seems easier /stronger to me.
Brilliant!, never would have thought to drop them in so deep.
What is the name of that type of spring loaded clamp?
You need the Lamello self clamping biscuit. You can joint it while your litres are still wet. Brilliant biscuits. I can't believe by all the comment people don't know of this easy biscuit.
Nice idea - instant spline joints.
Nice video Steve, Interesting! I shan't comment on the criticisms you received on whether it's a strong or not corner reinforcement joint. It is just showing another method of reinforcing a mitre joint. To those who are interested in the tool you used these are on sale in the UK under the description of Spring Miter Clamp Set, Framing Mitre Clamp, Google that and you'll find lots.
By your accent i'm assuming you are from Canada, not sure what you would call them there.
Hello Steve,
This is my first time here. Interesting video, I'll add it to my bag of tricks.
I have a suggestion/request for future videos, though. Could you PLEASE edit your videos and reduce the volume during the times power tools are running?
I use a headset while watching these. When you fired up the biscuit joiner, it just about blew my eardrums out. Even my wife heard it, and she was sitting across the room with her headset on.
That was ridiculously and unnecessarily LOUD!
Thanks!
David
Where did you get the spring clamps, that held the mitres in place for glue up?
internet
Thanks for sharing. It seems to me that pocket holes or dominos would be a more efficient solution. The good thing about woodworking is there are many roads to the same destination.
Pocket holes, ? are you serious.
Do you know the Lamello E20 L. That gives you enough Pressure to glue it, holds everything in Place and everything is fine.
Lamello are expensive and if the cost justifies its use by all means.
I like it. Only thing, I think I would place the larger biscuit farther in toward the center. Then I can use a #10, or even maybe a another #20 biscuit in front of it instead of the ff sized biscuit. That would give more gluing surface and therefore, added strength. Yes?
great tip, have used this already on a job I had sitting in the workshop, not quite the same as you have done, but the idea was excellent
You could assemble your parts and when glue is dry then router your profile. I would probably use my spindle shaper with a bearing.
To avoid the marks from the wire spring clamps you could use a ratcheting band clamp for the glue up prior to cutting the biscuit slots.
exactly!
Strap clamps are awful for mitred joints
He is looking for the perfect mitre joint so a ratchet band will not enable that.
Isn't this gluing long grain biscuits to end grain panels? The traditional way glues long grain biscuit to face grain which to me sounds much stronger.
Biscuit jointery was made popular by Norm Abrams but the young
woodworkers today all use pocket screws.
!
I would have screwed it underneath to the pyramid top. Nothing moving or coming loose.
Bit overkill... What load are you going to get on a decorative end cap
That technique has been around since Lamelo invented the biscuit Joiner ...
Not a pro by any means, but One small thing I noticed is trim should be in the same room as where it.will be installed for a week to shrink or expand . The rooms where I had trim in the house before Installed . the miter joints are ok (probably still terrible in your eyes ) the trim that was outside in the shop, the joints opened up.
We didn't do any fancy jointing
I like your concepts and out of the box thinking ! Making precision more simple is good. I really like the spring clamp system. Is this home made or purchased? If so what is the process of creating or where can I purchase? Thanks Steve !
www.google.com/shopping/product/16433005483308129393?lsf=seller:1135568,store:13956569731967360834&prds=oid:2143863756134694752&q=miter+corner+spring+clamps&hl=en&ei=HnjgWtmSNtCVzwKR0ruABg&lsft=gclid:CjwKCAjwzoDXBRBbEiwAGZRIeBXqGzboGBRyveGdPzpioK7fi_xZDSMB5KtkNUh9HHFfyCBzKu22PRoCuZEQAvD_BwE
Normally all you need is the glue surfaces (planty strong) but the problem is the glue will fail in exposed exterior conditions due to rain, contraction and expansion, heat and cold and degradation within the wood. This is why ancient craftsman use interlocking joints. The biscuits don't add much structural, its for alignment. Further I don't find biscuits that much accurate as once the blade contact the wood it will shift a little. You could see that in your video. I would have used pocket holes with exterior screws. I think that will fail as well given enough time in the element but would last longer.
For this particular application, I would argue that you don’t need the reinforcement. All the load seems to be vertically compressing the piece. Also-even if one doesn’t have a biscuit joiner, why not simply cut the slots using a table saw, before the glue up
I was thinking the same thing. You're adding strength where little is needed. But it sure is a cool idea, perhaps in a better application.
I think he may have covered that point of using a table saw to cut the biscuit slots. doing it afterwards allows you to make some final adjustments and alignments lining up the corners
+roymath
That is perfectly fine until people rub their hands on it creating a cross force on the mitres pulling the two joining pieces apart.
An easy way to add a spline to the joint. Heck I don't even think you'd have to use a biscuit ... just a thin piece of scrap hardwood the right thickness.
Aka: spline n groove
seen it and done it though not for this application but rather picture frames that are rather large with 36" square 3/16th glass.
👏🏻👏🏻🇬🇧
My biscuit joiner machine also don't have slow/soft-start.
I felt the same irritation as I do every time I use it when I watched your video.
First I align everything as exact as I can, then I press the power switch and the momentum as the blade starts to spin moves everything out of alignment - and I need to re-align it with the motor running before cutting.
One would have thought that I should have learned not to waste time on exactly aligning the machine until after pressing the power switch after using the damn thing for many hundreds of biscuits by now - but nope - I'm obviously to thickheaded to learn that.
hmm just thinkin if it were me i'm thinking run it through the table saw and my spine jig glue it up then machine the bull nose on such a small piece
Why not a bow tie Dutch Man patch across the joint... Cut the patch according to the grain direction for the most strength.. This patch would work for width of joint needed.
just not seeing how modern glues would fail in such a scenario whereby this reinforcement would be needed even with the grain being at 45 degrees.
If you use the biscuit joiner in the usual way, there's no reason to get mismatch in the parts. One of the advantages of biscuits is that you have slight adjustability in the positioning. The joint you have there has little to no load, so biscuits are probably overkill anyway.
Good Morning Ian,
Thanks for your note. I appreciate you commenting. I have a few thoughts.
I began using biscuit joints in the mid-1980s, just about the time Lamello's patents ran out and other tool companies started making reasonably priced biscuit joiners. The first non-Lamello joiner I ever saw was made by Freud and I used it professionally in cabinet shops where I worked.
I love biscuits, but there are two problems with them in situations like I show in my video. First, there is no up-and-down adjustment possible with biscuit joints. Sure, in theory everything is supposed to be lined up, but in practice you can't count on routed profiles like this one lining up perfectly. Even 1/64" is too much mismatch.
Another issue with biscuits is that they can tighten quickly enough in their slots that they prevent proper assembly of a joint with four corners that needs to come together like these frames. The approach of plunging the biscuits afterwards sidesteps this problem and it takes less time than conventional installation. It's a faster, better approach.
As for overkill, in my experience if you want something to last with complete reliability, overkill is essential. As I look around at the world I see so many things built "good enough" that are falling apart and unreliable. It's a shame. That's why I live my life in a way that makes sure everything works properly. I don't always succeed, but absolute reliability in my work is my bullseye and it serves me well. An extra 5 minutes here and there is usually all it takes.
Just some thoughts. Thanks for watching!
Steve
They should make the spring clamps with the point oriented the other way so it runs long ways with the grain. It would be completely invisible. Like brads or nails that are elongated instead of round. Nature doesn't make round grains except where the knots are.
Steve, did you ever think of assembling the frame using biscuits in the conventional way, then machining the profile after it's dried rather than before? Your joints will be significantly stronger than the method you're using which has the biscuits sitting at 90 degrees to their strongest position, and you don't need to worry about alignment of the profile, only the mitres themselves. And that's a basic craft skill. Just a thought.
Marty you said what i was going to say! It would be a stonger joint, and less time involved in the assembly process.
If you going that route, you might as well make it out of one piece of wood.
I use those Ulmia clamps occasionally but I'm not a fan of the dents they leave. It's so you much easier to use the biscuits in the usual fashion and put the profile on the piece afterwards unless you have an inside miter, trying to match up the profiles on all four corners at the same time is a waste of time!
This is the reason why they invented LAMELLO FIXO SELF-CLAMPING BISCUIT
Do you really think that once it is assembled and put on the stairway box, it is going to be under enough stress to warrant more than glue and maybe 4 biscuits?
I like the tip, and may use it. But, it seems like overkill for this application. When you fasten your pyramid on top and block on bottom I would think it would hold fine with glue and nails or screws. Nice job on the video.
You know what else ‘Slakes the thirst of the wood..’?......
Chair lock
If you're looking for strength, use a Domino jointer. You should be able to align and fit the whole thing.
This way is kind of pointless. Plus when the rest of your piece is built on to that base, the strength will be greatly increased. And when it's attached to the post, that also will keep everything together.
Who has Domino jointer money$$$$
+Anon Ymous
It is not technically strength that he is looking for but to actually add structure rigidity across the mitre.
So when force is applied across the mitre at 45 degrees the spline or biscuit will add rigidity.
@@bighands69 which would be defined as making the joint stronger....
@@bighands69 his whole argument about not having time to align the pieces before the glue sets is ridiculous. He could simply use extended set glue
oh my - really...my golly gee.