The Big Problem with Luthen Rael in Star Wars Andor
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- čas přidán 11. 12. 2022
- Luthen Rael is a fantastic character in Star Wars Andor. But I have a major problem with how he chooses to fight the Empire and the fact that it is antithetical to the way Star Wars says we should fight evil and oppression.
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I think the one things you’re missing is that the question the show is posing is if a rebellion like the one Luke and Leia lead can exist if someone like Luthen and Andor don’t come first.
Luke and Leia to a point don’t need to struggle as much because the dirty work has already been done
Also, don’t forget why Luthen wants to kill Andor: it’s not just because he knows too much, it’s because Andor knows these things and ran. He’s wanted by the empire and it’s not hard to imagine he gets snatched up by the empire again and interrogated
This is the exactly what I was pondering after the show. I want to believe that evil can always be overthrown “the right way”… but I’m not so sure now.
Luthen wants to kill Andor because of two reasons =)
1) He knows too much
2) Luthen thinks that he misread Andor and that coming to the rebellion won't ever happen
Exactly. Necessary evil is called that because it’s necessary.
@@Dynnen exactly. If Andor has stayed with Val, I don’t think it would have been decided he needed to die
@@BeskarDevil I also think it isn’t exactly 1:1 comparing the morality arguments of literal space wizards to every day people. Luke can more easily take the high ground because he can literally move things with his mind if the empire crosses him. Also, all Luke had to do was hop into an X-Wing and save the day, ignoring how much blood sweat and tears it took to build a rebellion that had these things
I can't say I agree that Luthen is fighting the wrong way. the dark side isn't just about being mean or making difficult choices; it's about being ruled by fear, anger, hate, ambition, and selfishness. That's not Luthen.
We hear in his beautiful monologue exactly how selfless his motivation is: he's not fighting for pride or ambition or cruelty but out of duty. He's willing to sacrifice his pride, for light and life.
If willingness to kill in cold blood was enough to condemn someone to the dark side, then Luke's attack on the Death Star-and all the hundreds of thousands of lives within it-would've made him an even "worse" person then Luthen and Saw combined, but it doesn't. Luke is at once both terrorist and hero, and so is Luthen, and so is Saw.
I agree, he started out with just anger and everything but has rationalized it and come to a conclusion about what he has to do to make sure the rebellion wins. He is pushing for a big rebellion force, and helping build a leader for it in Mon Mothma.
Even with such a large rebellion the intelligence and dispersed cells will be very important, but they also need to cooperate to do larger actions.
I dont think he sees himself as the leader or someone that must exist, I suspect he will ultimately sacrifice himself for the cause.
I think the argument can be made that he’s still ruled by the dark side, though not literally like a Sith, in this instance. He’s so fearful of the galaxy not being active enough quickly enough that he takes quick and easy action that often cuts corners just to see his end result more quickly, despite the fact he’s “playing the long game.” I don’t think I need to explain he is angry and hateful of the empire, but I would have to explain if those emotions rule him, but I don’t have an answer directly in my mind so hopefully someone else can pick this idea up for me. I also think the show has established that his ambition is what started his rebellion in the first place, although he calls it ego I think the two go hand in hand in this case. And even if he’s “fighting the good fight” that doesn’t mean he isn’t selfish, he still sacrifices many people of the rebellion way before they even see it coming and makes choices to save his own skin because he’s the one on top of the rebellion who knows all the cells so _he must be protected._ Luthen’s existence in Andor and Star Wars as a whole though does ask an interesting question that the video pointed out, is someone like Luthen necessary to make a rebellion against a dictatorship happen? Is there a reality in Star Wars and even our own world where a dictatorship can be fought on purely honest terms?
This is why Luther is such a good and complex character. If you blur the lines betweeen good and evil you can have a character arc. If he was automatically innate good then there wouldn’t be anywhere to take the character emotionally
naw he is not good...he is still bad....but his bad leads to good. bad for good is still bad PERIOD
Yeah, I 100% agree. That doesn't mean that he's gonna end up "good", it's just one of the ways his character arc could end up.
@@cpenner7086 you can condemn someones actions without calling them evil. Was it bad for the US to nuke japan? probably yes but doesnt mean the US was evil. Luthen is doing the same thing. He is taking morally grey and black actions but these actions dont nescessarily define him as a person.
Yeah that's the entire point.. life isn't star wars (original) it's not good vs evil....this is an adult show in that respect. It acknowledges that sometimes you can't win "without damning your soul".
@@cpenner7086 say you are driving a train and there is two men tied to the track you are on, however if you switch tracks there is only 1 man tied to the track you switch to, do you pull the lever to switch? Yes consciously killing someone is bad but it leads to more lives being saved so the ends justifies the means
"Stand in the ashes of a trillion dead souls, and ask the ghosts if honor matters?
The silence is your answer."
-Javik, Mass Effect 3.
My boy comes out with a decade old quote from the on-disc DLC of Mass Effect 3 and nails it.
You’re a legend my friend
"YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY. AND YET-" Death waved a hand. "AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED."
"Yes, but people have got to believe that, or what's the point-"
"MY POINT EXACTLY.”
― Terry Pratchett, Hogfather
Luthen is necessary. His remark about the galaxy bring suffocated without anyone noticing is the core of who he is. People have to die in order to make others realize that anyone can be next. Luthen isn't concerned with what's right or wrong. He's concerned with what's necessary.
It's a sad truth, but still true, that sometimes, to do the right thing isn't to do the *good* thing.
Yeah, I don't think it's actually an unintentional problem. It is much more an intentional contrast to the "rest" of the rebellion.
Luthen has to be one of the best written characters in the franchise. The complexities of his character, motivations, methods, desires, and actions all culminate in a fascinating exploration of how a real person thinks and acts.
Luthen is actually my favorite character that made me continue watching Andor. Really liked his antique shop and his ship.
Luthen is absolutely going to die. There’s no way he lives through the next season. I think he knows this. He sees himself as a person who thinks the ends justify the means and knows he is doomed eventually. I think he knows that once the alliance becomes an established actor in the galaxy it will be able to recruit and gather resources based on its moral high ground over the empire, but since the rebellion isn’t at that point yet, he sees it as necessary to foment resistance to the empire by any means necessary (including attacking the empire to provoke reprisals).
Overall I find him to be one of the most compellingly flawed characters in Star Wars. Hats off to Tony Gilroy for writing him so well and Stellan Skarsgård for such a great performance.
Or he could live but not get the recognition he so desires
Or maybe after all he will figure out it's better to stay in the shadows and organise all like a puppet master behind a curtain.
Thank you. I believe the OP totally missed the heart of Luthen. He seems to think the OG trilogy is how everyone in the rebellion should be instead of the guy who had the guts to get down and dirty. Rebellions aren't pretty.
He identifies as a Moses who will never see the promised land.
someone with knowledge said that will never ever be captured; unclear if he dies, but will never fall or be interrogated; all the trouble to hunt down the thief, is because he is the axis of a rebel network; cannot let others with knowledge about him, be free; must be in the rebel alliance for life.
Jessie Gender’s two hour video essay on Andor, especially the way it counter programs the mono myth is REALLY good. I would love to see Jessie talk about Star Wars on a Star Wars Explained panel sometime.
Truueee great video
I'm going to go check it out!
Sometimes you have to do bad things to win a war ?!?!
That’s reality!!
It’s what made this series great .
I think your problem with Luthen is that your prefect rebellion is built on Luthen’s shoulders. Mon Mothma is the face on the thrown but who has the power.
Luther is able to do things that heroes don't do because he is not a hero. Mon Mothma is a hero but Luthen is not. He is a silent guardian. A watchful protector. A Dark Knight.
@@Intranetusa ooh that's good
Not true at all. Luthen has nothing to do with the formation of the Rebel Alliance. He runs a predecessor of sorts, but the formation of its successor doesn't involve him.
@@comicop2513 What? A big reason the rebellion even exists is because of Andor, who was recruited by Luthen. Also he made many connections to Mon Mothma, plus we'll see him connect more people/groups together. There would be no rebellion without Luthen
@@comicop2513 You mean it evolved from something Luthen helped creat. Like what I said. Plus the story isn’t fully written yet maybe we find out that in the background he was crucial. He’s a string puller not a front and center man.
I think Luthen is an example of the quote "When one resolves to fight monsters, one should see to it they don't become a monster themselves". I don't think he wants to resort to these methods, but he is in a war and war is not a game, war is in fact Murder. He is resolved to do what ever it takes to make a better universe he'll never see.
Out another way, "He's the man the Galaxy needs right now, but not the one it deserves"
That is a good point. WAR IS MURDER. And no soldier, be their name Leia, Luke or another, can say: I killed but it was not murder. It is murder when you kill with intend. And it certainly is when you get yourself in a situation and bring a weapon knowing you may need to use it to kill. Even if then the action of the moment is defensive or for a bigger goal in defense of a country, justifiable or not. It still is about murder or accepting murder as one of the consequences. No such thing as a clean or good or totally controlled war.
I disagree with nearly ever take you have on this character. Which like you said, is awesome. Great job Gilroy and crew!
His methods, no matter how morally wrong, are moving the ball for a movement. He has to play chess with lives and his own life. He is one of the primary cores of a movement that is ALLOWING the future rebels to exist. He contacts cells, gives them info, allows them to succeed and has to let some go. The future rebels who also will do dark and necessary things. Rogue One nailed it, the things the rebels had to do to get from point A to B is rough. It’s dark. But revolutions require that. Even the leaders in a new hope were willing to assassinate Jyns dad after speaking to her. The rebels are never perfect either. Rebels barely hinted on this “we can’t sacrifice time and resources for lothal” then the ghost crew does it and lothal is free for years. The rebels chose to leave a world to suffer for a greater conflict.
And while I understand the ideal “Star Wars hero” we’ve seen, this show is more grounded in reality and less sci-fi-fantasy. Luthen is running a galactic spy cell against space fascist. He has to allow people to die to grow it and keep it alive. It’s the reality of running such a thing. He is a hero because he did the work no one else wanted or could. He sacrificed everything like he himself said. And he isn’t asking for thanks and knows he is damned but is doing what is necessary.
Luthen puts on a show for each person he interacts with, seems to live alone, and has poured his own life into stopping the Empire. Seeing him on Ferrix at the end, all I could think was “this guy is in awe because he gets to see this firsthand. People waking up. Finally. It’s worth it.”
Comment in support of a good answer.
these are great points
Good points. I like to ad: Be cautious about people who do "what is necessary ". He is right and so wrong at the same time. ❤🔥
you also see a bit of both yours and Alex's points at the end when Cassian is willing to let Luthen kill him but he asks him to join him instead. Luthen was okay with sending someone else to do the job when he thought Andor was a risk to him and the network but when he is actually there in person after seeing what Andor is capable of he cant bring himself to take the shot.
Luthen did nothing wrong
Luther is able to do things that heroes don't do because he is not a hero. He is a silent guardian. A watchful protector. A Dark Knight.
After she threw Perrin under the bus, I’ve struggled to view Mon as the idealist committed to fighting the Empire “the right way.” Rather, the show has me thinking about the costs of revolution and war, whether they are inevitable, and how they are different for everyone.
Luthen wanted to be the hero; like, Hero’s Journey Luke kind of hero (that was my read on his monologue anyway). His cost for revolution was that ambition; there was no place for heroes against the empire 15 years ago, and the only reason there is a place for them now is because of the awful things he did to push the Empire into more oppression.
Mon Mothma wants a better world. For everyone, but also for her own family. Her cost for revolution is… she can’t have both.
Comment in support of a good answer.
In terms of his ideology Perrin is quite likely a simple fascist that cares not about anyone or anything as long as he - to paraphrase Cassian - is fat and satisfied. And Mon's apparently false accusation against Perrin won't hurt him in in the slightest: the ISB doesn't care if he's gambling away what I'm assuming is his wife's family money
@@FairfaxJack Perrin is not fascist whatsoever, lol. Arrogant, selfish, judgmental - yes... but fascist... not in the slightest. His worldview has nothing to do with politics in any way.
@@FairfaxJack Maybe. But it’s not about Perrin. It’s about Mon choosing to sacrifice her relationship with her husband (or perhaps, sacrificing her chance to repair a broken relationship) for the sake of the rebellion.
We often think it’s noble to make a personal sacrifice for the greater good. But I didn’t feel like I was watching a noble sacrifice. I felt… uncomfortable. With her decision, and that I think she made the right one. And I think that is part of what this show is about: the uncomfortable truths of fighting tyranny.
@@comicop2513 by looking away and doing nothing to stop the powers that be, you are making a political choice. He might now be a fascist, but if ignoring what is happening, is going along with it.
I think he’s just the guy for the Rebellion. He’s like a combination of George Washington and Che Guevara. No one can be perfect, especially if you’re gonna overthrow a galactic Empire. Sorry man, but I gotta disagree
Eeeew. Che guevara was just killing for his own grab on power.
I don't think the American Revolutionary figures are a good comparison because the British basically got distracted from fighting in the American colonies by fighting a global war with France. So the US colonies were spared from having to fight the full force of the British and didn't fight have to a grueling war of attrition like in US-Vietnam, Soviet-Afghanistan, etc.
@@Er_Guille Che was a real revolutionary, Castro was the one killing for power.
I would say Luthen is the pragmatist of the rebellion
_“I’ve made my closet a sunless space. I share my dark cloak drip and new deals for wigs with ghosts.”_
- Luthen Rael, probably
Underrated comment🤣🤣🤣
Loni: What have you sacrificed?
Turns out Luthen’s walking stick is a mic. He begins singing Behind Blue eyes.
He did have a way with words lol
I think Luthen hates what he’s doing and has been actively trying to move the Rebellion into a position where it can be community based. Just look his desire to unite the separate groups with different ideals and at his smile when Andor joins him in the finale. He needs secrecy and callousness to build up the resources to spark a popular rebellion stemming from the Empire’s brutality. In the end, he wants the rebellion to become resilient and self-sustaining, and to make him obsolete. But at this point, one mistake, accident, or random happenstance could kill every group if they are too connected.
That's the difference of this show...
While other shows make people discuss technical aspects such as pacing and special effects quality, Andor has people discussing the motivations of the characters.
Kudos to the writers and producers, you are pleasing a more intelligent audience!
I like to think Luthan doesn't think of himself as a King, but as a Bishop or a Queen. He can do a lot of damage, but at the end of the day I think he will sacrifice himself to ensure victory, for the sunrise he will never see
Season 2 will be awesome
The Luthen Rael character is fascinating. He builds his escape routes on the way in. Remember that!
Luthen really got my attention when he showed Cassian how much he knows about him.
I feel Stellan Skarsgard should get more supporting actor award nominations than he appears to be getting.
I call him Stellar Skarsgard
The whole point of Andor is to show us that the Rebellion is not entirely made of heroes and that the line between good and evil is blurred. In that sense, Luthen pretty much synthesises this. He doesn't have the luxury to be a hero.
I agree that Luthen doesn't embody the ideals of how we should choose to fight. But I think the reality is that in movements like these, we do often have a moral leader figure who embodies those ideals, as well as others working behind the scenes and making those morally grey decisions to make things happen, exactly like Luthen. I think it's pretty realistic as is and I don't know how I'd feel about a "redemption arc" for him. Also, on his speech - I think the part about using the tools of his enemy does lend to your point, but the other parts about giving up his own life/comforts for a bigger cause, even if he'll never personally reap the benefits, are still commendable.
Luthen is a classic spy story character trope, the gray hero who walks the knife edge of efficacy while trying not to fall into the pit of amorality. He’s the one willing to do things the government leaders (or in this case the future faces of the rebellion leaders) need done but can’t be associated with. Skaarsgard kills it in this role
I think we're supposed to realize that Luthen Rael is not the right person for this job - he's just the one who stepped forward and took on this job while others did not.
Exactly. Luther is able to do things that heroes don't do because he is not a hero. He is a silent guardian. A watchful protector. A Dark Knight.
I think a lot of people are mistakenly characterizing Luthen as a heroic character, when in reality he's not. He's the hero the Rebellion needs, not the one they want.
Also he might even turn out to be a bad guy. The writers of this show love to play with expectations. They got us to root for Dedra until we learned more about her. Same could be said of Luthen. Can't wait for season 2.
Quite relevant since I just finished watching The Citadel Arc of The Clone Wars. Throughout the episodes, Tarkin repeatedly shares his frustration over how the Jedi conduct the Clone Wars. Then, at the end, Anakin likewise agrees by saying, "If we don't do what it takes to win, we risk losing everything." This becomes the basis of the to-be-Imperial philosophy. Then, Obi-Wan shares his perspective, "Unfortunately, war tends to distort our point of view. If we sacrifice our code, even for victory, we risk losing what is most important to us: our honor."
I can agree. Luthen appears to be more like Saw Gerrera than Mon Mothma in his ideals.
He's both. Hell. All three of them are the similar to the other if we are being honest.
@@TheEbonyEngineer Yea, that's one way to look at it.
And if Rebel leadership was left up to Mon Mothma alone....the plans never get stolen, the empire is still in control and probably dominating the galaxy with TWO Death Stars.
Alex, if Mon Mothma is more the hero style for the Rebels, then the Death Star plans never get stolen and the Empire is cruising the Galaxy in 2 Death Stars in utter domination.
Luthen is wise not to trust anyone. In the infant stages of a rebellion, that's how you get things ended quickly. You have to be exactly who he is. The rebellion will outgrow the need for his methods, but it isn't there yet.
I read this comment on another video:
“If Saw is the Rebellion’s Vader, then Luthen is the Emperor”
Not sure if this will get buried in the comments but I noticed when Luthen is in his "Antique shop owner persona" he sort of looks like Palpatine. I've even seen bombastic jokingly compare him to Palpatine when he is in the field wears a black outfit and has a hood over himself. I wonder if it's not a coincidence at all; could it be a subtle visual sign that Luthen shares qualities with the Empire he is trying to bring down?
I don't see Luthen as a hero the same way I don't see Saw as one and I dont think he's ever meant to be, accepts that he isn't, but desires to help "create a sunrise that I'll never see"
It's refreshing to see a character that is fighting for the good guys but isn't the perfect "good guy" that you kind of expect from SW. Cassian's ruthlesness in Rogue one is a great example of that(and in this series also) He's on the good guy's side but can and will do bad stuff so someone else doesn't have to.
I would not be dissapointed if they don't do any sort of redemption arc for Luthen, I like having characters like him, Saw and to an extent, Cassian in SW doing dirty work some times
good video none the less and the Andor Series is hands down some of the best SW content we've ever gotten and can't wait for more
Luther is able to do things that heroes don't do because he is not a hero. He is a silent guardian. A watchful protector. A Dark Knight.
Honestly, it's worth looking into real world revolutions to see what Luthen is based on. A character like him is how you overthrow a dictator.
@@nathandts3401 Whiile the Allies were celebrating VE Day there were hundreds of Luthens either dead or dead inside by what they had to do to achieve that victory.
But even Mon Mothma is not a Superman figure. Both her story in a certain point of view and her critical failure in being so afraid of a military in canon that she demilitarized too soon and as a result the empire was not properly defeated the first time show that she also has some fairly major flaws and has made some pretty big mistakes. One of the things I loved about the Thrawn trilogy was that Mothma’s flaws were just as apparent as Garm Bel Iblis’s, and it took BOTH of them compromising to solve their issues. I love Andor, but I think one of the issues it has is presenting Mon Mothma as an ideal leader/someone who will become an ideal leader, when we know even in the end she makes a huge mistake that leads to the first order’s rise.
I think that the rebellion could be considered as an entity that was in constant search of the correct morality to sustain the fight. The great heroes were necessary to redirect the fight so that it did not end up becoming the same thing they sought to defeat. Rebellion without direction is doomed to failure, Luthen is a trigger but not a determinant ..
A friend and I were just discussing what Luthen's motivation is and his origin. Andor us awesome because we can't stop talking about it. 😆
I hope he doesn't have any beyond thinking that the Empire is wrong.
A revolutionary that fights for principles would be a lot more compelling than one that fights out of self interest.
He's based on T.E Lawrence...(Lawrence of Arabia).
I don’t know about Luthen’s redemption, but he sure is the catalyst for Andor’s in Rogue One!
not everybody in star wars needs to be a hero, not every character in star wars needs to be likeable.
I've been waiting for someone else to say this. Too many people happily criticize Saw but refuse to criticize Luthen, even though they act in a very similar manner. You can debate about whether or not his actions are justified but ultimately, the things Luthen does are more aligned with the dark than the light.
Surprisingly I actually get what you mean the more I think about it. I thought my heart was going to sink in my chest after reading that title but I get what you mean. Obviously when you compare characters like Luthen to someone like Mon you obviously get two different stories of the fight, Mon fights through politics and money to keep it going while Luthen does it the dark way of actually going out and committing action in the worst ways that keep the rebellion going forward.
So hey I get what you mean, I think lots of people would agree that sometimes doing the dark stuff or the wrong stuff isn't the best but sometimes it might be necessary. This is what war does to people especially in this universe during this time where the Empire was one of the most powerful entities ever.
When I saw Andor, I saw that Luthen was actually the true leader of the Rebellion. He seemed to give orders to Mon Mothma even though she is somewhat in charge and he had strong ties with radical rebels like Saw Gerrera's Partisans. Luthen pretty much funds the rebel cell groups who he knew will succeed due to their personnel, equipment, and resources. Also, he is the head of all Rebel Intelligence at this point so Luthen knows a lot of the Empire except for Project Stardust. His ruthlessness is what made it possible for the Rebels to gain the intelligence network and later resources they need to build an actual army to fight the Empire.
I agree with all the points made, but i'm convinced that when fascism becomes deeply rooted, you need someone like Luthen to lay the ground work for idealists like Mon. He is needed; which is unfortunate, but true. And i hope he never softens tbh
I don’t think he ever WANTED to be glorified for his actions, I think he just understands the tragedy behind his actions in his position gives up any form of public recognition which is what will be given to those further down in the rebel alliance
Luthens definitely a necessary evil and one that I acc really respect
One could argue that Luthen simply wasn't a force user, therefore he did not know, nor did he care about the "don't let your anger control your actions" thing
Jedi logic really doesn't apply to non force users because they have a actual mental/physical consequence for being bad, the dark side, where as a normal person has much more room before any consequences actually apply.
Luthen's methode is really similar to Intelligence agencies and resistances during WW2.
Yes, that is why he can’t be a nice guy/do-gooder
In film as in theatre, casting is about 90% of the battle. Getting Stellan Skarsgard to take this role was a stroke of genius on the part of the casting director, and I'm sure Tony Gilroy had a big hand in that as well. He nails every role he's ever been in. If you really want to see something he was terrific in, check out his performance in "Ronin," with Robert DeNiro, and Jean Reno. If I remember, it was from either 1997 or 1999.
Luthan is not Mon Mothma who was the one who put together the Alliance. It is why he was asked “if she was worth it.” Even Rogue One hinted at this.
He's a jerk and I love him! I don't want to ever meet him or be part of one of his games, but he's a great character.
Luthen was one of the best characters of Andor. Stellan's performance was phenomenal from the big moments down to the little details like when we see Luthen getting ready to return to Coruscant. I am very pleasantly surprised that he survived the season and I'm glad we will hopefully get to explore him more in Season 2. I'd love to get a comic or some story that explores him during the time of the Republic and see how much of his cover was actually who he was at some point. Maybe he actually did own that antique shop and it was his livelihood before he started using it as a front for rebellion. That would all be interesting to explore.
I mostly agree with you about him and his methods. It is conflicting seeing a character that's likeable be so dismissive about loss of life and treating people as expendable. I'm hesitant to say he was cowering at the end. To me, it seemed like Maarva's words hit home for Luthen and he was having a realisation that maybe there was a truly better way to fight the Empire, that his way was not the only way, and I think that's supported by his conversation with Cassian in the final scene. I think he may have not been so much hiding but rather taking a good long look at himself during the Ferrix riot.
I pointed this out while watching Andor but Luthen and characters like him represent this kind of characters that go way too far in what should be a noble fight, who do terrible things that cause unnecessary loss of life like civilians but unfortunately there's a lot of support for those characters and their methods online and it's just brushed away by saying "It's war. It happens", and that frustrates me to no end because it's still wrong. The ends don't justify the means, ever. The messages of so many franchises like Star Wars or Avatar: The Last Airbender is that you should always find a way to fight evil in the world but without becoming like those you fight because if you do, you're no better than them. You should try to be better than those you oppose. So much time is spent communicating that message in stories and it just seems to go over many people's heads because to give an example in ATLA, mass murdering an entire village of innocent people just to take out some soldiers is totally acceptable for some reason. Or to bring it back to Star Wars, Saw Gerrera's faction endangers civilians constantly and he condones it. I love the character but that is not the right way to go about the fight and it shouldn't ever be praised.
Now all that said, Luthen (and Saw) is an example of one of those characters done very right. His methods are questionable but never once is he portrayed as a savior or some figure who can do no wrong. There's no illusion that he is justified or right. He is very understandable and relatable but he is questioned and challenged constantly to show that his way is not the right way and that is a credit to the writers of Andor. They explored that extremely well with Luthen's character IMO.
spot on. That little smile and wave after he changed outfits was superb.
It’s kind of hilarious how well Andor “subverts expectations.” It’s like the show did everything TLJ tried to do and actually succeeds and adds value and critical thinking to expectations we used to have. Luthen is one of the most interesting characters I’ve seen in a long time, and I didn’t understand him at all when I first finished the show. I was confused on what I was supposed to feel, I had to separate Star Wars from my mind when thinking of this Star Wars character and it WORKED. Unlike in TLJ where it tacked on (really badly) that “good guys and bad guys each buy ships from the same rich jerks.” This entire show is about that idea and it pulls it off phenomenally.
I respectfully disagree for his fighting methods to change, but I'll agree his current motivation to fight obviously could be better if he regains his "humanity", but that is irrelevant to the bigger picture.
To elaborate, he seems to be the only player in the rebellion we know so far who has a very tactical mind and is reasonable when he needs to be. Unfortunately, stooping to the enemy's level is a tactic that almost all rebellions have to employ in order to win. The ends absolutely justify the means, results are results especially if it's the only effective option against savage oppression.
He might have another way to do things that are less harmful, but are they as effective? If they aren't, he's perfectly justified to do what he does. Only if his current motivations cloud his judgement and cause him to make decisions that aren't as effective which cost more innocents, then he's no better than Saw, but that does not seem to be the case with him.
Let's face It. When you have so little Power compared tô your enemy you need to accept sacrifices and dirty play to have a fighting chance. Once the fight is more even some idealist Will come up and you Will bê forgotten as a useless and cruel. It's Sad actually
To borrow a phrase from Wreck-it Ralph (and flip it on its head): "Just because you are a good guy doesn't mean you are a GOOD guy."
The moral ambiguity of all the characters in Andor is what makes it some of the best Star Wars in 40 years.
I think that people like Luthen or Saw had to exist first to build the groundworks of the Rebellion. Without them, the moral Rebels like Luke, Leia or Mon could never exist let alone succeed. I imagine that there were many peaceful protesters against the Empire at first but the Empire massacred them which led to the survivors and others fight with violence.
Overall Luther and Saw are too brutal but the noble Rebels are sometimes too naive. If you have just the brutal and cold ones, you could never defeat the Empire because you can't play brutality game with a force that vastly overpowers you. But pure nobility/naivity as seen in Mon Mothma post-Endor led to the demilitarization of the New Republic which critically weakened it and eventually destroyed it.
For success, you've to combine practicality and idealism.
In terms of ideology the original Star Wars movies were simplistic and one dimensional. They were fairy tales, with neatly cut characters divided into good and bad. Andor is simply pointing out that real war is not the black and white fantasy that many of us were raise to believe in.
Even in WWll - which was as much of a clear-cut battle between good and evil that you'll ever find in human history - there were Allied actions that were just as brutal and murderous as anything the Empire could conjure up, but there were also millions of young and innocent Axis soldiers who died fighting for a cause that they didn't believe in as part of a war that they couldn't escape.
The balance between dark & light is indeed teetered within Luthen as it teeters in the strongest/conflicted characters from Anakin/Vader to Ben/Kylo.
A true rebellion would HAVE TO resort to underhanded asymmetrical tactics. Ethics and morals are wonderful but the moment your enemy becomes aware of your limits they have you.
Luthen’s protection of his inside source was similar to the WWII Allied forces deciding when to use information they found out after breaking the Enigma code.
What you are missing is what both Luthen and Tarkin both know what it takes to win a war, but others don't want to get their hands as dirty as they need to get. All wars are this way...in fiction and reality.
It’s all well and good to say you will fight without descending to the level of your enemies or committing any morally-questionable acts, but when happens when defeat is certain without such acts? Do you accept defeat and death with grace, or do what it takes to win? In one such canon, on-screen situation Jedi Master Mace Windu decides to “murder” the Emperor rather than allow him to retain control of the government and inevitably use it to wipe out the Jedi. (The fact that Mace has been fooled and fails is irrelevant; only his understanding of the situation and his decision matter).
I think this is kind of the point of Luthen’s character. He’s not supposed to be rooted for necessarily, kind of like a different flavor of Saw. I think it helps add a touch of realism to the rebels when we don’t always have a group of selfless heroes willing to always do the right thing to keep a clear conscience.
I don"t think Luthen will get redemption, nor should he. Looking from the outside, I don't think it's that kind of show anyway. In universe, I think Cassian and Luthen will work together and eventually the various groups will form the Alliance. During that transition, Luthen will have issues with loosing his grip on the direction of the group. Maybe he'll start going extreme following the Saw approach. He'll put the Rebellion at risk and Cassian will be ordered to put him down. Still the one who put things in motion, but not there for the sunrise nor any recognition, as he foresaw.
I like the idea that he knows what he is and that he is not the one to save the galaxy or even lead the rebellion, but that he is something of the dark side that is destructive. The dark side and the empire destroy themselves, and he is a part of that process and recognizes it
Luthen represents the dark underbelly that Andor hints at in Rogue One (actions taken they are not proud of). There are already hints about the upcoming Ghorman Massacre. I think that is the final story arc (or 2nd to final) in Season 2. I think Luthen will have a hand in it, get himself killed in the process, and forces Mon Mothma to denounce Emperor Palpatine on the Imperial Senate floor before uniting the factions we heard about together in the Rebel Alliance. She becomes the "missing heart" of the Alliance. Luthen was the type of person who could build the rebellion from the ground up but is not the inspiring leader to give that rebellion its needed heart or soul.
You're young.
Intelligence is different from other parts of war.
Luthen is an excellent case officer. He really cares about his agents-in-place. Worries about them. Keeps up to date on their lives.
Before his meetings, he reviews the agents' file and whiteboards every possible conversation/objection/question, and develops the best (not necessarily most truthful) motivational response to keep that agent in place.
He displays the right emotion in the moment, to strengthen rapport.
He lies to EVERYONE, to protect them all. He motivates EVERYONE, because that's his job. He doesn't need to take up arms, he needs to motivate others to motivate others (not a typo) to begin resisting and to eventually take up arms.
He lived through the Clone Wars, he knows what fighting looks like. Soldiers are the last link in a chain of pawns in the effort to avoid violence.
Everyone else has failed when soldiers have to exchange fire.
He's a spymaster, and every spy, saboteur, hitman, thief, and politician, needs to be motivated by something. Luthen is a master manipulator and that's a good thing.
I feel like I understand how you feel it goes against what star wars' rebels methods, but that's the beauty of it realistically no one could defend the empire especially with such odds without getting his hands dirty. In the real world even countries that don't need to play dirty (the US) but still do again and again.
S1 of Andor made us love Luthan. Im assuming S2 will make us hate him and Andor will have to do what he needs to do to save the Alliance from Luthan
I'm predicting he sacrifices himself for the cause. Would mirror Rogue One and inspire Cassian.
Maarva's speech clearly left an impression on him anyway.
The basis of your argument is applying the rules of a Jedi to a non force user, which is a completely incorrect thing to do. What Luthen is doing is no different then what the British did during WW2. You have to keep things secret and compartmentalized so that you can build a army strong enough that can withstand your enemies attacks.
As someone who has been in law enforcement for over 30 years and a combat security contractor and has seen fighting in multiple conflict zones and everything that happens in combat most people don't have a clue what a hero is and even when your one of the good guys what horrible things you do as a supposed good guy. Sometimes you do things that cross the line and your not so much a good guy but maybe not quite evil. Sometimes the good guys do evil things to keep the bad guys from doing even worse. I know I'm being vague but I kind of have to be. I can't say what we really do.
Back to Luthen’s actions being driven by ego. I believe that his display against the Cantwell-class cruiser Luthen was trying to stroke his own ego. Luthen could have just made the jump to hyperspace after the tractor beam was taken out of commission. Instead, Luthen reveals a bunch of amazing tricks his ship has up its sleeve.
I disagree. Luthen can stay the same way that he is. The only thing that's important is that he helped get the Rebellion off the ground. He doesn't have to be moral, or adhere to any code. Who knows what Luthen's motivations are, or how he got into the Rebellion in the first place? We don't know. I disagree that he is 'the King' in a theoretical allusion to chess. If that were so, then he needs to get off Coruscant. It could be that Luthen was 'the King' at one time, and now it's Saw. Notice that Luthen put Kreegyr's life in Saw's hands: for Saw to make that decision. By the time of Rogue One, it will be Mon Mothma, where it will stay through Return of the Jedi. Leadership is an ever changing organism over time. One of the reasons why the Force went from balanced to heavily in favor of the darkside is because Plagueis and Palpatine so imposed their will on it to be so. But Palpatine over time insisted on always being in control, and he eventually got old and underestimated the power of the Force to balance itself back with the Skywalkers. Too much power rested with the Empire, and one person, for too long. Even the Sith Rule of Two would pave a way for an apprentice to take power from a master, but Palpatine had Vader right where he wanted him, and this would eventually pave the way for his fall.
Andor has no problem of not showing an SW like rebellion/heroes. SW has the problem of never having been at all believable or even consistent in its themes.
naivety
I think you've articulated this perfectly! When I watched his big speech the first time, I had a sense of discomfort that I couldn't really explain, and you've done a great job of putting it into words. He's the King, but he put himself in that position. Why does he get to decide who is worth sacrificing? But I also wonder if you're right that he is playing a necessary role. Maybe. I really hope we get to see him reflect on the riot he witnessed in the next season. I'm so curious if it will change his approach or just validate it. Thanks for making this video!
I'm a sentimental sort... I truly hope that Luthen's inevitable death comes from a noble sacrifice; he gives his life to save Klaya, Mon Mothma, or even B2-EMO... It would especially be great if his sacrifice comes at a time when Mon Mothma is fleeing the Empire. That she is able to escape Coruscant because Luthen runs interference for her, and gets killed doing it.
His personality and action are what in the end will allow Mon Mothma to pick up where he cannot go and unite the rebel factions. On the other hand without his dirty work, the roots of the rebellion might not have formed as much as they did. People want to fight but feel they are the only ones, Luthen shows them that there are many others, but at the same time gives the people the feeling of being safe from other rebels failing or being discovered.
I love Luthen because to me he is the living embodiment of the true rebellion. Not the idyllic moronic Jedi-esque heroism shown in the films but the true terrorist rebellion backbone. Without people like Luthen getting their hands bloody the “heroes” would never have the opportunity to win. The true heroes are those willing to sacrifice their souls so the next generation doesn’t need to have blood on their hands too.
So your problem, in short, is that Luthen Rael is not a Jedi and he doesn't think like one either.
There is an episode in Star Trek: TNG that comes to my mind: Thine Own Self (S07E16). A sub plot in that episode follows Deanna Troi's efforts to become a bridge officer. She easily passes all of the required examinations except one: a holodeck simulation, meant to test her command abilities. After several failed attempts to save a badly damaged Enterprise without putting anyone at risk, Troi realizes that she may not be able to avoid sacrificing some of the crew, and orders the holographic Geordi to perform repairs in a hazardous area that will quickly kill him. She passes the test and earns a promotion. The lesson from this is as obvious as it is fundamental: In some situations, a leader may need to sacrifice individuals in order to save the greater good.
It seems to me that this describes Luthen Rael's inner conflict quite well: he is aware that he is forced to sacrifice people in order to defeat the Empire and that he resembles the enemy in this. Ultimately, his conscience is the only thing left that separates him from his evil opponents: the Emperor doesn't care who or how many die for his plans.
The line between good and evil has never been so thin in Star Wars.
Tony Gilroy took a realistic historical approach. The rebellion in Star Wars is complete fantasy. He researched rebellions in the real world and placed it in Star Wars. Rebellions do not happen without characters like Luthen. This makes it more believable and gives it weight. It grounds it. Which explains why there is such division amongst the base. People that want a more realistic believable Star Wars and one that wants fantasy.
A whole hardly agree with your comments about how this show has impacted the fandom and how we're talking about Star Wars. It's refreshing to have varied, complex, and differing opinions that don't lead to childish arguments. It's a big Star Wars everybody's welcome ♥️
Luthen isn't a Sith Lord, but they shop at the same boutique.
He's a bit of an anti-villain and i love that. It's rare to see characters like this. What i liked most about Andor is that it breaks this tired black and white ''these are heroes these are villains'' trope
i think andor does an amazing job portraying the real picture of the rebellion : its never perfect and not the heroic idealistic image that many have in mind. In reality is a mix of anyone with one goal to topple the empire, with differing moral principles and in any possible ways. The show lets the audience make their own opinion of each individual character 👍
Luthen feels real. As a latinamerican who has read something about revolutions and see SW from the place of a person ignored by the capitalist system of the old republic and the empire, I feel him as the person YOU NEED to organize the rebellion.
Yoda pretends to be selfless and is an idiot who told a traumatized kid to let go of attachments, lacking any empathy for his suffering, he could use a tiny bit of validation, but he chose to be a callous horrible person, promoting Anakin's fall to the dark side. Don't take his counsel regarding the force or how to lead a life. Yoda speaks as the chairman of a corrupt and privileged organization.
This person gets it.
Yeah his character is not a good guy, but so fun to watch. I also think Mon Mothma reluctantly using her daughter as currency kind of puts her in a similar stance with Luthan. They are both fascinating and tragic.
Star Wars is not pro war. It is pro aggressive negotiation
So not a diplomatic solution?
Agree on your assessment, though I find him more unsettling than frustrating. Luthen is a walking foreshadowing device: it feels like he's pulling everyone he interacts with closer to disaster.
We know Luthen's not around in Rogue One, Cassian will work for him but end up looking for redemption, and the more heroic Mon Mothma will be around more in Season 2 to call attention to some Bad Stuff happening all around.
I give it 50-50 odds: either he's going to become a villain Cassian will have to kill, or he's going to make a redemptive self-sacrifice to solve a problem he caused.
This show challenges the traditional Star Wars concepts of heroes and villains.
If you're uncomfortable about characters on the 'good' side not being heroic enough, then you're getting what the show is trying to tell you.
Dude,
This is StarWars for Adults, and as such, it is ambiguous, cold, sinister... Not even close to real war, but certainly heading in that direction...
Forget the childish take of previous shows
I feel like everything you said is exactly what makes Luthen such an incredible complex character
I already agree with you
Calm. Kindness, kinship. Love.
I’ve given up all chance at inner peace, I’ve made my mind a sunless space.
I share my dreams with ghosts. I wake up every day to an equation I wrote 15 years ago from which there’s only one conclusion: I’m damned for what I do.
It amazes me. I mentioned Luthen feeding off the dark side and people tried arguing with me that he isn't a force user. Like I know that, that's not what I'm talking about. The force is in all beings so just like a crazy powerful person can be corrupted a regular one can be as well and it all goes above people's heads. It's surprising honestly.
But what you're descibing is the Jedi philosophy and the approach of *some* of the Rebellion's leaders: there's nothing in those beyond that circle necessarily having those same values (Han doesn't...).
Every rebellion needs a Luthen to take root. He's playing the role he knows he needs to play and will never see the end of or get the glory. He is literally giving up his soul and doing whatever he has to do to pave the way for others to fight the right way once the rebellion has grown enough.
Luthen seems to me to be the classic trope of a Jedi (not saying Luthen is one) who sees a problem sees no way to solve it in the current order and thus falls to the Dark Side. See Revan, Dooku, so many characters in the Expanded Universe.
I agree that this character creates conversation and debate and I love it!!! Thank you for your perspectives!
Wonderful analysis. Additional thought; It's refreshing to see a complicated but essentially good guy who can think strategically. The good guys often are far too predictable and gullible (Think of the inquisitor's speech about how Jedi hunt themselves in Obi Wan). It will be nice to see Luthen follow a redemption arc without losing his ability to make strategic and often difficult choices.
Luthen is the best character in Andor for me. He's the ruthless revolutionary man of action that any guerilla warfare outfit needs to make things happen, but more importantly he's the anti-hero militant head of the rebellion that tempers the more reluctant political head that we've seen more often in Mon Mothma.
The rebellion needed someone like this to give the rebellious factions enough victories to eventually allow them to do things the right way. We hadn't ever really seen this before, other than maybe in Rogue One, so it's just brilliant to give a character like this such a great long-format development platform.
It is funny that Yoda is this symbol of wisdom, when frankly nobody flubbed the ball harder than he did. He isn't evil no, but he fucked up and he knows it.
Maarva, in her great final speech, implicitly criticizes Luthen: she says her stand against the Empire is not for her ego or to shine...