The SOTO Wind MASTER: Is It Worth The Hype?
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- čas přidán 29. 06. 2024
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⏱ TIMESTAMPS:
00:00 - Intro
00:26 - Welcome and overview
01:16 - The Soto Windmaster
01:49 - The Jetboil Minimo
02:10 - Testing the stoves
03:05 - How much am I using the stoves?
05:08 - How did the Soto perform on a 9 day trip?
07:00 - Testing the stoves in a controlled environment
08:08 - Jetboil Minimo test
08:50 - Minimo with pot support and Evernew Titanium Pot
09:43 - Soto Windmaster with Evernew Titanium Pot
10:38 - Fuel consumption, Soto vs. Minimo
11:38 - Controlled test results
12:29 - Stove results from a 9 day trip
13:21 - What does all of this mean?
14:05 - But everyone says the Soto Windmaster is good?
17:23 - Who wins the Mowser's Choice Award?
17:56 - What do you think?
🔗 VIDEO LINKS:
Outdoor Gear Lab Stove review
www.outdoorgearlab.com/topics...
Soto Windmaster Stove: geni.us/AohyT
Jetboil Minimo: geni.us/LzTOL
I’ve had a Jetboil stove for 10+ years. Yes it’s heavier than the alternatives but it’s really efficient and boils water quickly in windy conditions. The piezo ignition has died but other than that that’s all I can fault. I only boil water and never cook with it. I’ve gone 6 days on one small 100gm canister and still had gas left over. It gets my #1 vote.
Great video - I have used the Windmaster for many years and also on longer trips, I make a slow, very slow boil to save fuel - its working.
Thanks for sharing! Good to hear!
Pretty accurate in the conclusion.
I use the Jet Boil Minimo as well on longer trips, the fuel consumption is hard to beat. The simmer control on the Soto Windmaster is really great for weekend and camping trips, when you can get creative with cooking and fuel consumption is not a concern.
Absolutely!
Great review and it confirms what I have experienced. The neoprene cosy on the Jetboil combined with the flux ring under the pot and the burner head all work together to make the Jetboil more fuel efficient and windproof. My first Jetboild didn't have the Regulator Valve on it, so the last quarter of the canaster resulted in much longer cook times and lower heat output. Even my latest Minimo with the regulator valve has some reduced performance in the last quarter of the canaster, but significantly improved over the original one. I have been using my MSR Whisperlite more in windy conditions, even for freezedry food. Its heavier, but works well in strong winds and has constant heat output until the last drop of fuel.
Yep, you really can't go wrong with the whisperlite! I've had mine for 20 years now and it's still going strong. Don't use it as much as I used to but it still comes out a couple of times a year.
Started out with a JetBoil...broke in 3 months & got a refund. Bought a clone via AliExpress that lasted until I bought the Soto...& never turned back. Just prefer the reliability of the Japanese craftsmanship & still going strong 4 years later. Longest trail was 630miles so...
Think your losing more efficiency through that pot than the cookers themselves,do a windmaster with a heat exchange, watch those numbers come right down
Will give it a try
It’s a good hack.
Check out the gear skeptic series about stove efficiency
yup, fairly technical with lots of controlled experiments. Multiple video on stove efficiencies from pot size, wind tests, windscreens, and heat ex changers. well worth checking out
Will definately check that out! Thanks for letting me know, I hadn't seen it!
@@mowsertas I'm not sure if he reviews the soto but I believe he found highest efficiency was dialed back from full flame somewhat
@@johnclauson4619yes. That’s definitely the case with the Windmaster. It chews through gas much quicker cranked up high.
Stoves waste more fuel the faster you burn them. HX pots waste less at full throttle than normal pots if you really can't wait a couple extra minutes. At half throttle the fuel consumption gets much closer and you have to figure out if the extra pot weight is worth the fuel savings. Goes without saying that wind is the enemy and massively increases fuel consumption. As always, technique is as important as gear.
Another great video thank you. I have both stoves as well and hike in the same area. For boiling water only the MSR Reactor however is hand down the most efficient stove in any sort of wind. 15 years later it’s still going strong.
Thanks for the info! Very interested to try out the Reactor some time soon!
Thanks for going into all that detail - amazing review!
No problems. Glad you found it helpful!
I'm using MSR Reactor and I believe this is the most gas-efficient and wind-resistant stove on the market. I recommend it.
I also have MSR windburner but don’t find it as efficient as jetboil. Will have a look at the reactor.
Any brand will do? The closer it gets to freezing the worse butane performs. Hence the iso mix is important at zero and below. The alt, if you want to keep using a gas cylinder, is a Primus Express Spider that splutters initially in 0C conditions but once it gets going the heating coil over the burner keeps the gas flowing.
Until 4 years ago I always used a whisperlite. Do like the ease of canister stoves now. Express spider looks like a good option.
Yep, depends on the conditions, for the price you can get packs of 3-4 for Under $10, and one Canister for $20ish, but the thing most people need with Canisters is the flow valve and you can empty partially used into one before you discard.
That said you can get adaptors to run both systems depending on the weather you need.
I have the Soto, and my friend the mino mo, mini mo is better on gas, but it's correct that the Soto is far superior on simmer. Also, I have seen a review where using a titanium shroud with the Soto melts the piezo
Titanium shroud would definately make a difference!
Great review
Thanks so much!
Love your videos. Have you viewed Gear Scpetics videos on the same topic?
There’s a potential flaw in your methodology of running both stoves flat out. Minimo output is 6000BTU and Windmaster is 11000BTU. Flat out, the WM will produce ~2x so it’s unsurprising the fuel use is so much more but also reflected in boil times.
Efficiency and pot size matters and the Evernew is a good size for the WM but when flat out, the WM probably pushes heat up the side - Gear Skeptic covered this.
A Ti shield could be added to the WM for a few grams and still be hundreds of grams lighter than a Minimo and you have over 1 litre usable capacity - good if filter fails, no tabs.
I always boil water with lid on and all of my friends do too. I sneak a peak to look for bubbles on the base and know it will boil in seconds when I see them. The test would be better with a thermocouple attached to a meter to imitate a lid on most of the boil.
I’ve used a WM since 2018 with a Toaks 750 and a roll up Ti shield, typically with the same number of boils that you do. Most use has been week long Tasmania, VIC Alps etc at elevation. I run the flame to suit the pot base and get similar fuel economy to your Minimo experience.
great points! Especially the output stats. Lots of good points to improve on future reviews. Thanks!
I’m surprised your Soto ‘windmaster (not) performed as well as it did in the cold, damp, comparatively high altitude autumn air in the Eldons. In those conditions, and without a wind shield, even less of the heat generated at the burner head would be transferred to the pot. You showed when the flame front is open to the surrounding air you will achieve poor fuel efficiency.
I’ve spent too many years coaxing luke warm water out of a succession of stoves. I have some ideas that may help.
The integrated pot and neoprene cover on the MiniMo retains more heat in and around the base and sides of the pot. In turn, that retained heat, combined with suppression of air movement around the burner/pot interface maximises heat on the pot.
In comparison, the … ahem, soto “windmaster” doesn’t do much or any of that. The heat from the burner is directed at the bottom of the pot - mostly. The burner head also uselessly heats the surrounding air, and any - any - wind movement will diminish the flame front being directed at the pot base.
If you were to test the soto with the MiniMo pot, you’d get slightly more fuel efficient boiling of water because of the features of the pot (neoprene/integrated wind guard etc). If you already have that pot, you could bring it along, but then the weight savings of the soto burner head would prove trivial compared with carrying the full MiniMo. Anyhoo….
You mentioned part of the solution to the inefficient Soto problem in the video. MSR liquid and gas stoves use a foil plate that sits below the burner and a windshield that fits around the outside of the metal plate and fits closely to the side of the pot. In this way, the metal enclosure concentrates heat on the base and sides of the pot while reflecting heat that flows downwards from the burner head back upwards towards the pot. The jetboil system uses a very much refined heat retention system - similar to one msr came up with in the early 90’s that looked like a medieval torture device for a pot. It weighed a ton and made very slight improvements to fuel efficiency. The jetboil system evolved over many generations, is lighter, and as you showed - works reasonably efficiently.
In my experience (using the metal plate and windshield) will improve efficiency of an upright canister stove by around 25-30%. It still uses a lot of fuel though, and incompletely burns that fuel.
Australia’s Roger Caffin did many tests on stoves, and canister stoves in cold, damp environments. He and others found incomplete combustion of gas - similar to what you experienced in the Eldons - creates a LOT of carbon monoxide. Cooking in a buttoned down tent, with poor fuel combustion, will create a cloud of carbon monoxide that sinks to the bottom of the tent - where occupants sleep and breathe it in. People die in extreme circumstances from this situation.
So, if you want to use the Soto, maybe carry the windshield and plate that would increase fuel and combustion efficiency, and reduce but not eliminate higher concentrations of carbon monoxide production. To be clear, any stove in a tent will produce carbon monoxide (including jetboils) - so ventilate well if you need to cook inside.
If you wanted to avoid this, cook outside. Although with the soto, without a wind shield bring one of the 440 gm gas canisters per day and don’t expect water to boil, a little bit of lukewarm water might happen. Ask me how i know this, eyeroll!
Anyway, keep us informed of your adventures (and adventures in gear stoves) - it’s great living hard core adventures - vicariously.
Comprehensive comment! Thanks for the ideas! Definately staying in the minimo camp for the time being. They market the Soto as minimalist and having to add in extra stuff to carry with it kind of defeats the purpose. Might give the MSR reactor a go soon to compare against the jetboil! Good take on the Carbon Monoxide too! Yikes!
@@mowsertas MSR reactor. Hmmm, read on.
Since you have a MiniMo, i discuss first how to make that safer through reduction in Carbon Monoxide (CO) production - if you have to COok inside a tent. Then, with reference to research and experiments, i summarise performance issues identified with the reactor stove.
First, Jetboil: I continue to nurse a Jetboil Sol Titanium stove through its aged years. The MiniMo is similar, so your and my results should be semi-comparable.
Many factors contribute to Carbon Monoxide (CO) production. The size of the gas jets and spacing between burner head/flame and the base of the pot (google it for more info).
The closer the pot is to the flame from the burner, the more likely you will be to generate CO at high concentrations.
To minimise the amount of CO produced by your MiniMo, (if cooking in your tent) you could provide additional space between the finned MiniMo pot and the stove head. I use tent pegs to add some separation. Works OK, but your mileage may vary. Also, if you do this, the stove becomes prone to drafts affecting burning performance because of the gap between stove and pot base where drafts can quench/diminish the flame. I resolve the problem with a wind protector made from multiple layers of kitchen aluminium foil. I stand the wind shield up from the ground and wrap it almost all the way around the pot. I leave a 10 cm gap to ensure adequate ventilation of the flame. This protects the flame for a 10 gram weight penalty, and further reduces CO production.
As far as the MSR reactor stove, you may want to read Roger Caffin’s research article (linked below).
The preproduction version of the MSR Reactor produced around 1000 parts per million CO (well and truly above a lethal dose) according to Roger’s report. The production version produced 300 ppm at a simmer (if you can get them to do that) and around 80-100 ppm at full speed. To compare, the old jetboils produced 8-15 ppm CO.
So, if you’re thinking of using an MSR reactor, IMHO, only use it outside the tent. Also, take a moment to read the FOUR health warnings on the reactor stove: one on the box, two attached to the stove, and one on the pot - the last time i looked). The lawyers appear to be trying hard to protect the company from claims that their product caused death of hikers using their reactor stoves in buttoned down tents.
I’d look at low tech: separating MiniMo pot and burner and a windshield. Safer for a couple of $ and slight weight penalty. I’ll be interested to see how you approach this issue for your use case - in future videos.
Good luck.
backpackinglight.com/co_series_supplement_1_msr_reactor/
Thanks for the heads up. Was looking at the Windmaster for a through hike, but I'll stick with my old Kovea. Can usually get 10 or more days out of that boiling similar amounts of water.
That is some great effiiciency! Would def stick with the Kovea!
It’s much more efficient to crank them about half way. Might take another minute but far less gas. I have a Soto Amicus or whatever it’s called but it’s essentially the same as a wind master. Also, nothing saves gas better than a titanium flat pack twig stove. Also very fast boil time and, of course, free fuel. Whole thing weighs 200g. Often I do a slow food cook with that and still have the gas bottle for a quick cuppa while it cooks. Brilliant.
Awesome review! 👍🏻
Thanks! 👍 Glad you enjoyed!
Thanks, excellent study and review. The Minimo w integrated pot has the advantage of the heat transfer fins that the other didn't. A clear factor in fuel efficiency, I think. Thanks again. Subscribed & liked.
Thanks! 🙏
Thanks for the vid. Good info since I just received WindMaster to replace Mínimo.
Thanks! Glad you found it helpful
This is a really good, thought-provoking review. I'm in the market for a new stove and was about to pull the trigger on the Soto Windmaster. I had yet to consider the Jetboil, even though I own an early Jetboil and have been a massive fan as a water-boiling device (in the right conditions). I have learned so much from comments left by viewers, too. I wasn't aware that earlier Jetboils weren't regulated, which explains the coughing and spluttering of my old JB, mainly when cold or low on gas. I was lured into a BRS titanium some years back, which taught me that the lightest isn't the best. Unregulated, the BRS let me down, and I carried a bag full of food around Snowdonia in winter I couldn't cook.
The Soto sounds like a fine stove but a gas guzzler. Would it perform better if you stepped off the gas a bit and increased the boil time?
I'm assuming the pot-to-stove match is what makes the Jetboil so efficient. The fins on the bottom maximise the effective surface area of the pot and, I assume, stop heat from being wasted up the pot's side. Hence, I wonder if Soto is suffering from too much output for what heat transfer can take place with a flat-bottomed pot.
I know boil time has become a measure on CZcams, but when I'm sitting staring at a beautiful view, is boil time really a worthy performance indicator?
I am suffering from confirmation bias towards the Soto and looking for evidence to support my choice, but it sounds like you have done the same and got past it with some science and pressure from your buddies.
Wish me luck in buying two new stoves 😆
Soto definitely performs better when you step off the gas but still not as good as jetboil in my opinion. I agree theres no real rush to boil water but just based on my experiences with fuel consumption I will be sticking with jetboil for long trips. Soto still to come on 1-2 night trips. Good luck on your stove mission and thanks for watching. Appreciate the comment!
Would be interested to see how it goes when you don’t turn in up as much and let it take the same time as the jetboil if it uses more or less than it did here
yes, out on the track we did do this. We had the Soto turned down while the others had their minimo on full tilt. We still went through more gas with the soto though.
Yep jet boils are efficient but .. when cooking food I never liked it. I use an old pocket rocket eg original it been a good stove but efficient nope . being in qld having dehydrated food has been problematic due to lack of water on longer trips so the food we take is whole food pouches. Yep weights is A factor . any way love your vids and keep up to good work . Regards dp
Thanks for watching!
Great review and exactly the info I was looking for - especially when it comes to longer trips - for an even lighter option how would the Jetboil Stash compare ?
I haven't used the stash but given it is a similar type of burner and pot support setup to the Windmaster, I don't know! If I end up using one i'll definately do a review!
I hike regularly with four others. A couple of years ago, i got a windmaster and the others then followed suit. So we have five windmasters in the group. Three (including mine) are almost identical in performance. One is slightly slower and the last one is demonstrably worse than the other four.
Maybe you have a dud?
Yes, our trips are generally shorter and yes, being Asians, we get pretty creative with our meals and the fine simmer control is a must.
So for us, the windmaster is a better choice than the jetboil.
That's a lot of Windmasters! Yes, when you need simmer control the Windmaster would be a much better option! I am going to try and go a bit more gourmet at some stage on shorter walks with meals so then I will probably take the Soto for those trips.
@@mowsertas they copied me on my Windmaster, they copied me on my Xmid tent, they copied me on my Soto thermostack combo, and somehow, we all now have blue pants and black tops when we hike / camp. Seriously, I need to have a chat with them.
I'm gonna have to start hiking in merino lightweight buttfloss just to mess with them.
@@praktika1082 I can totally see you hike in those chain-hole base layers (which I've heard is the option for managing sweat whilst cold since it evaporates the best) and then all your mates copy you, so in the morning when you are putting on your layers you have 5 people all who are wearing clothes which shows of all of your bodies!
@@bananarama3624 the Nordic mesh base layer with g-string bottom. Yes.
If you’re just boiling water, get a canister stove that blows through fuel. If you want a foody experience, get the minimo!
Have you ever used the MSR Superfly?
No, I haven't ever seen it. Can't believe I haven't hear of this one! I have just about every other MSR stove.
Worst-cased it against Windmaster; 1) Fully-open fuel is less efficient (in exchange for speed) and 2) Barely cracking into a new giant canister. If you were to redo-it with equal boil-times, Windmaster would undoubtedly win. Not a Windmaster fanboy, and agree with GearSkeptic that stove's must earn their spot in one's pack based mostly on weight. If one can't be bothered to set fuel-valve for conditions, then they must suffer carrying the extra weight. And while Windmaster beats heavy heat-exchanger systems, BRS beats Windmaster in many situations/use-cases. Likewise, a Caldera-cone alcohol system often beats them all, depending mostly upon whether they are allowed by the nanny-state. But what's the main lesson?
Lesson is that wind is the main user of fuel. Therefore, wind-blockage is the main saver of fuel.
FlatCat Gear makes ultralight windscreens for Windmaster and BRS that only weigh a few grams. Trail-Designs makes Caldera-cones, that typically weigh less than 1oz.
Flat cat wind screen looks like a good option! Well do some more testing at some stage having learnt some lessons here. Thanks for watching!
Didn't test minimo pot with windmaster.
No, and I should have explained why - I can't see a real world situation where I would take the minimo pot with anything other than the minimo burner hence I didn't do the test.
@@mowsertas if it takes same amount of fuel but does it faster and weight is less. Then in real world it makes more sense. Maybe.
Have you considered using your Soto Windmaster with a Fire Maple Petrel Heat Exchanger pot?
This is a CZcams video of the stove and pot👇🏼
czcams.com/video/T-C07ENBF9s/video.htmlsi=pvwL5ozbqNnEsK72
Oh wow, that looks amazing! Thanks for sharing, will definitely be checking it out!
not a fair test, the jetboil has a controlled heating system, whereas the Soto is essentially open. fail video
Thanks for your feedback! I understand your concern about the comparison. The intent was to showcase the differences in performance under similar conditions (we had both stoves on the same trip), highlighting their strengths and weaknesses. I’ll definitely consider doing separate reviews to provide a more focused evaluation of each stove’s features.