ESPRESSO ANATOMY - Flat Vs Conical Burrs
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- čas přidán 30. 07. 2024
- Baristas are known for being an opinionated bunch, and one of the many debates that will forever burn in the specialty coffee industry is flat versus conical burrs. In this video I'll dive into both styles, talk about the mechanical differences, determine their grind size distribution, and talk about there perceived taste differences.
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**CONICAL SIFTING TEST UPDATE**
Wondering why there is a skip in the video right before the conical sifting test? Well I made an error and used the wrong sized filters. I've cut that portion out of the video and included a link showing the real results below. Check it out if you're curious. imgur.com/a/WFRFp5L
Need to add those stills into the video.
socomon69 unfortunately the CZcams editor only allows you to remove, and you cannot add.
Should I look for a ceramic conical burr grinder or stainless steel?
Yes I jumped off my TV to my phone so I could read the comments on WTF happened with the niche and the Kruve #GotAKnow Thanks for posting this
See ef
Best explanation on youtube... thanks for that Sprometheus!
On Reddit they say flat burrs give more fruit flavors and conical gives more chocolate caramel. So it’s really interesting to here you say the opposite
Great video! Keep up with the good stuff, I love your work.
isaac saraiva thank you my friend! I appreciate the support.
thank you for the video. Love the experiments you run!
Thank you my friend! I appreciate that!
Just curious if you calibrated the grind settings in each to same extraction time/weight before you made comparisons?
Informative, thank you 🙏 Definitely know what grinder I’m going for now. NZ Cheers!
Great video! I do use conical burrs, but I can't say I've used flat burrs. So I would have to try it out to decisively say which would be better, can't wait for part II.
Joey Gutierrez thanks Joey! I think they are definitely worth experiencing, and both make great coffee.
great comparison video! All your uploads are top notch, always on the point!
As a home grinder i would choose for a conical the etzMAX.
But my new grinder from last year, the Ceado E37Z Hero, just does a damn good job ;=)
Thanks Bob, I appreciate your support! I've definitely come around to the conical way of life. If anything its a nice change of pace after three years on flat.
@@Sprometheus So ist the Niche grinder already yours? I also had him in my selection, its a nice grinder.
A little bit more expensive but quite terrific is the etzMAX grinder from etzinger. It is the superior version of theBaratza Sette grinders.
Bob Ross yeah I bought a Niche not long after testing one. It’s just a really solid home grinder and has such a wide breadth of grind sizes and high quality.
I've got an Ceado E6P and really can't justify purchasing a Niche just to be more current.
E6P does a great job, quiet, fast, consistent!
Great video! Thank you :-) would also be interesting to see how high uniformity burr sets, e.g. from SSP, factor into that. If I understand correctly, they are only available as flat burrs. Would be amazing if you could make a comparison/explanation video about how they are different and what kind of espresso they produce :-)
Great comparison! I too have noticed that conical produces more light and detailed notes, while flat burrs are heavier and denser tasting. Amazing it makes a difference at all! Very happy with my Niche Zero
2M views thank you! Thanks for watching. Glad I’m not the only one experiencing those flavor differences between the two.
@@Sprometheus I am looking for a coffee grinder for home use, I want a grinder that will grind for espresso and pour over coffee.
What grinders do you recommend??
Thanks and love your channel.
@@mohamedalameri6888 two separate grinders is probably the best option.
@@BensCoffeeRants no sh@ man! Now do you have 2? Good for you then but this just isn't what the guy was asking...
@@mohamedalameri6888 I'd say prioritize espresso adjustable grinders based on reviews, choose the design that speaks to you and order the sifters you saw in the video. You can save the fines from the morning pour over and make a Turkish later in the day ;) The sieve will always beat the grinder but that's just my opinion.
I'm so glad you made this video. When it comes to PourOver/Drip grinding, i swear my Baratza Virtuoso does a better job than my Eureka Specialita. They are grinder developed for two different purposes, but i fell that while my BV can get to let's call it Moka grind and be pretty accurate and even, i don't think the Eureka does nearly as well in the opposite direction going to PO/Drip grinds. I cant really test because i don't have a kruve but coffee def tastes different coming out of my Technivorm or PO (BeeHouse) or Chemex.
I love my Virtuoso. I use it to make coffee with my Aeropress and Clever Coffee Dripper. I previously had a Baratza Encore for many years until it finally died on me. With the Virtuoso, I immediately noticed a less bitter cup. I'm pretty sure that's due to less fines.
that was great, excellent production, thanks.
.. im toying w the idea of getting a flat burr grinder (~$500 range) as an alternative to the breville barista express's conical grinder ($600CND for the whole shoot'n match) ... your vid was a great help....
You should include what coffees you’re using when doing these experiments! I’m interested in what you’re using. Also I just had your Ethiopian for the second time today. It’s really solid
Ryan Bensinger I will definitely start doing that. Thanks Ryan! Glad you’re enjoying it!
Fantastic video and really helpful, as usual. Thank you! Fortunate enough to own flat and conical. Def taste a difference, but need to dial in better on my conical. As for sound, my sette and specialita disagree. Sette is a boisterous one!
Home user here and have used both flat and conical burrs. I prefer conical burrs because for someone like me who just brew a couple shots per day flat burrs retain too much ground coffee. I also like the taste from conical burrs better, not sure if it is due to the old grounds in the flat burrs.
Great video Sprometheus, for clarity since the imgur pictures are not labeled, and the new edit to the video shows the sifter having the 300 on top for both the flat and conical sift test. In your example, which burrs had more fine particles produced?
Thank you in advance!
yeah very frustrating there's nothing shown for comparism although i guess the way the shots went it seems conical seemed tio have been less spread.
I'm interested to know how you made sure you were grinding to the exact same target size on the two grinders rather than just hitting something that appeared roughly even. If the Niche grind was just a little courser potentially that could have led to confounding the results.
Disregarding the home-scientific approach I do find your anecdotal observation to be quite interesting and the grind makeup making different compounds easier to extract is an interesting area of research.
Tom A the results between the flat and conical aren’t legitimate. A viewer noticed that the screen sizes were swapped. So I’ll have to try and update that somehow.
@@Sprometheus Do you dial the grinders so that the end result in the cup is extracted for the same amount and time? I think this will be close enough for the comparison. I would pull 3 shots dialled in for a specific time/weight and will target the same result with the other grind. Then I would grind for example 40 grams on both grinders for comparison.
vessk000 yeah exactly. I dialed them in for time and yield, as I thought this would be the best way to get the grinds as close to each other as possible.
Another interesting factor to bare in mind is burr sharpness and alignment. If the niche is much newer for example, then it's burrs will be sharper and produce fewer fines. Additionally, the burr sets on these grinders will not be aligned in the same way (I.e. One aligned better than the other). I believe this would also impact the experiment. Still a really nice comparison to see as nobody else has done this on CZcams yet to my knowledge.
@@jackbeynon6557 Hey jack, that's a good point. I did swap in new burrs on the Mazzer as I plan on selling it once I finish a few videos with it. They should be relatively even in terms of sharpness at this point.
In the end I do have to accept there will always be shortcomings when comparing apples to oranges. It is a lot of fun to play around, and share my findings with people who are interested. I don't expect people to take this as written in stone, but maybe become a topic of conversation and foster some discussion.
Thanks for watching and I appreciate your critical thinking!
The grind size distribution seems to have been cut short? what was the result of the conical burrs?
There was an error pointed out by a viewer, the test was re-done and posted to the link pinned at the top of the comment section.
Good job! Thank you so much!
Curious about the grind size distribution test with the Kruve. Wouldn't the grind setting affect the results? If you did try to match the grind size between the grinders, how did you do so?
+1
I think a better way ti do it might be to use 2 screens that are slightly above and under the optimal grind size and dial it so the majority of the grounds falls in the middle compartment. That way you will get to try shots with the same particle size and eliminate the particle distribution and presence of boulders as variables.
I did consider doing that, but I was hoping to remove as many fines as possible using the two finest filters. I matched them as much as possible by dialing the shots in to time and using that as a way to determine the size is as close as possible.
But as another viewer pointed out I totally spaced putting the filters in the correct order on the conical test. So I’ll have to run that one again and update the video.
Chihabeddine MAHASSINE I’ll give that shot this next time around.
Great video! I thought it was just me - got my Niche Zero and wondered where the chocolate notes and heavy body had gone from my shots. And where did this acid come from?! Considering going back to a flat burr grinder.
Wow! So true. Same here. Huge difference in flavour observed after using my conical grinder for a while as backup, and thought the same: Why does the same bag of beans grinded to same particle size not carry the chocolate deep flavour anymore, and suddenly tastes more acidic. I appreciate the conical to grind faster but the flat disks produce in flavour a much much more pleasant experience of notes. Amazing!
Thanks. I'm onto dark roast beans (meaning chocolate, smoky, caramely, intense notes), so now I know not to upgrade to a Niche Zero, but to a flat burr grinder.
What flat burr grinder do you use?
Or which one do you recommend?
Now I'm really confused. I recall James Hoffmann as well as other reviewers saying the Niche Zero produced a very rich, textural, and chocolatey espresso along with being lower in acidity and clarity compared to flat burrs.
@@LorenzoNW , yes, how to explain these contradictory critiques? I have a Barista BES870XL espresso machine (with a built-in conical grinder), and it produces very chocolatey espressos with dark roast beans.
Thanks for ur video.👍🤗
You’re welcome, and thanks for watching and commenting!
The conical grinder sifter test is wrong you put the 200 on top and 300 in the bottom which doesn’t make since
so of course no ground will pass the 200 watch the video back
Hamad Rahsid yeah you’re right. I must of swapped them after cleaning them out. I’ll see if I can run that one again and edit it in somehow. I’ll also make a comment and pin it to the top. Good catch.
@@Sprometheus youtube have the edit feature where you can edit already uploaded videos but its a bit limited to what you can do
Hamad Rahsid yeah I’ve messed with it a bit. I’ll see if it will work that way. Or I’ll just cut it or dub in a link to a separate video with the correct test. Thanks for catching that.
@@Sprometheus thank you for listening and trying to correct it not a lot of people will do that
Hamad Rahsid for sure. I do my best but sometimes things slip through the cracks. Don’t want to spread misinformation.
Like many people, I find myself in a tight spot. I have a Commandante with red clix but want to get an electric grinder and budget is as always, a predominant factor. I worked for several years in commercial environment (cafes and restaurants), using big flat such as Mythos Pro, but never did side by side with conical, which I now see the value of it. Today we see more and more single dose flat that eliminates the retention issue such as Lagom, Ceado and more recently, the G-Iota DF64. My problem is that, without having hands on, it is pretty complicated to decide... I am one who is more looking for fruitiness and sweetness in my shots rather than classic chocolates and caramels as I tend to buy and roast more medium/light roasts... I found a great deal for the DF64 and I would later upgrade it to SSP burrs (here again a choice has to be made, high-uniformity or unimodal...). Regarding single dose conical, obviously the Niche is the top candidate but it is as appealing as it is hard to get, especially all the way up here in Canada... So yeah, that's my problem, a long comment to basically ask you what you would do in such a position? If you have a sec I would love to hear your take on it, and if not no stress, thank you for all the great contents, it constantly pushes us to learn, improve, question and experiment
So did you ever re-do the sifting test to see which (approximately at least) has more fine particles? Also what was the flat burr grinder used?
Yeah take a look at the pinned comment for the results. And the flat burr grinder is the La Marzocco Lux D, which is a rebadged Mazzer Mini E.
I'm curious about this too and I don't see a pinned comment?
@@NoZenith it’s still there. You may have to sort or refresh the comments but it should be at the top.
@@NoZenith It's a link to an image, so you can compare with the Niche's particle distribution, Looks like it has less tiny fines, but these kind of tests aren't really ideal since the grind size could be slightly different giving slightly different results.
I do agree with your tasting notes.
Hoon's Coffee thank you! Glad I’m not crazy!
@@Sprometheus I get so much deeper flavor from my Mazzer than my build in Barista Express grinder (Conical Burrs).
I think I notice more bitterness on flat burrs and more acidity on conicals. But my flat burr grinder might have been not working properly and giving me uneven extractions, I still think I preferred the flat, usually.
Seems a little like you’re not comparing apples to apples here. The burr set in the niche is a particularly high end set of conical, not the type you’d find on a typical low budget grinder. You’re comparing some of the best conical burrs on the market to a very average set of fairly small flat burrs.
Seems a better comparison of the merits of burr type would be to use better flat burrs. Even the jump to a Mazzer major or a eureka mythos would be a significant improvement in grind size distribution and flavour in the cup.
My experience suggests the smaller burrs in the mazzer range produce very average in-cup results.
You kind of missed the vertical aligned flat burrs from the ek43, in the lab I use conical burrs and flat burrs and I tend to prefer the flat burrs because I feel they provide sweeter shots. One plus on flat burrs would be that they are way easier to re align because they run parallel instead of concentric so that’s a point for café owners. I personally became in love with mahlkonic ek43.
Gabriel Mendoza Palma I’d be curious to run through some of these tests with an EK. I do love the look of the EK, but did find that the distribution of grind size was pretty massive. When making cold brew and grinding on a 11 or so it would clog the filter with fines. But I do see your point on alignment. It’s definitely easier to calibrate. But I haven’t had many shots off of an EK because I don’t know many places who use them for their espresso.
The Real Sprometheus well I don’t own a sifter. But I do have an ek 43 and use ir for espresso against my other grinders and the only downside I see on the ek43 is that it is constantly mis aligning but is easy enough to align. Definitely a very awesome grinder to have in a cafe, and more if you have many varieties in stock as I do in the lab.
Would adjusting recipe, dose, yield, time, provide a fix for the differences of the burrs?
The noise level depends on the brand too. I have a Ceado 37J, which is super quiet, flat burrs. The Sette has conical burrs, faster than the Ceado, and can wake up everyone on the block.
Another thing to be tested would be to eleminate the large particles with the sifter as well in order to see 1) which type of grinder generate more larges and 2) how larges affect the taste. It seems to me that fines affect the test more than larges but it would be nice to be able to test this.
Yeah I’ll be doing more with the Kruve sifter for sure. This won’t be the last time we see it.
Hey is there a update on this by any chance?
Did you dial in for same extraction or flow rate ?
M T I did dial them in for the same extraction time.
So are fines good or bad for espresso? Looks nicer on the cam when it’s been sifted but does it taste better?
As a home brewer I've always preferred conical burrs. Soon I'll have a new Gaggia Classic Pro and then do some comparative shots with my friends flat burr grinder.
Dan JV I think for home the conical is best, purely for the lack of retained grinds. I’d love to hear your thoughts on the differences between the two once you get a chance.
Just awesome! Believe it or not, I've had some really tasty shots using the Lido 3 hand grinder. It's a work, but well worth it. Cheers!
I hear a lot of great things about hand grinders, haven’t had a ton of experience with them myself though. Thanks for watching my friend!
thx - update: i total agree with your description - I personally prefer the classic Italian chocolate style espresso from the flat burr grinders much more than the obviously "thinner" tasting produced by the conical bniúurrs. BUT: for practical reasons (retention, cleaning) I bought a conical grinder - hoping that once there will be a reasonable priced flat burr grinder, merging the best of these two worlds.. I never understood why the conical burrs aren't a bit more elongated -to produce a but more fines...
Is the Commandante manual grinder suitable for open baskets? Thank you
Great to hear your thoughts on this!
It is definitely a divisive topic. I have heard lots of people make clear cut statements such as [Flat / Conical] are better for [ X / Y ].
The grind distribution difference has been proven (for high quality flats) and flats can lead to higher extractions without bitterness it seems but you do hear lots of mixed things that aren't always substantiated. Many people do say that conicals are more forgiving and easier to dial in however.
I think it is very difficult to directly compare flats to conicals as the outcomes will be affected by grind size/ quality of burrs and the grinder etc.
I believe SSP are releasing some conical burrs this year so it will be great to see how they compare to their range of flats.
marcus annegarn for sure. I figured how often will I have one of each on my counter so I may as well play around with them a bit.
It’s definitely and imperfect situation, there are lots of variables at work here. But I figured it would be interesting none the less to dig into this with a couple of very popular home espresso grinds and see what came out.
I will be curious to see what SSP comes out with though. They do some high quality work.
This video made me feel better about my Feldgrinds conical burrs. Being new to this channel, I googled ponyboy and kind of wished I hadn't.
Jamie Moore haha yeah it was brought to my attention that the kink community has a Ponyboy thing. The phrase isn’t from that though, haha.
The Real Sprometheus The Outsiders 👨🏻🎓
Eric Petersen that’s the one!
The Real Sprometheus 6th grade-1978. Wow I’m getting old. Was a nice touch in this video.
It's interesting that depending on your water chemistry, flat burrs vs conicals, filter basket IMS vs VST, the same coffee can taste completely different. I would love to hear your opinion on flavor differences between VST and IMS baskets.
Absolutely! Water chemistry is a huge factor, just but all the pieces of the puzzle can dramatically effect the outcome in the cup. I definitely plan on doing a basket/screen based video.
I'm skeptical about the baskets making that much of a difference, although I own a VST basket... for some reason :D
I actually like the Ridgeless basket since the ridged ones are REALLY hard to get in and out of on a Rocket portafilter holder! Like what the hell Rocket.
Noticed the same taste difference just like you.. i like more the chocolate flavors so kept only my flat burr
This isn’t super related to the video, but I was curious: when you were deciding on the Mazzer mini, why did you decide to go with a grinder that can’t single dose? It seems like the savings of coffee from single dosing are pretty significant.
When I got the machine I was pretty new the home espresso game and I didn’t really think much about the smaller things. For me it was just what made sense because they would come together and it made it very easy.
Thank you for the response!
After watching this I'm curious as to what you would prefer and why: Kafatek Monolith Flat vs. Kafatek Conical grinder? Sorry to put you on the spot here. Inquiring minds want to know. : )
I think this explains why some coffee shops have a bold taste and others have more of a floral notes even though it's the same exast coffee, I believe it's the grinder and what burrs they are using, I'm defenitly going for conical burrs, I prefer fruity notes! I know you mentioned it's mostly anecdotal but other comments said the same thing, amazing video!!
It could possibly explain that for sure. Grinders make a surprisingly huge difference in flavor. I am all about the fruity flavors too, and love the conical burrs. Thanks for watching and the kind words!
I wish Kafatek could send you their Monolith so you can do a comparison between Niche and Monolith
That makes two of us!
I have a 1ZPRESSO jxpro and a ECM Manuale54 and I think the flat burrs give a much better taste for espresso but for filter and presso it gets a little cloudy.
Fast forward to 2023, will flat burrs still be less likely to highlight fruity/floral from light-medium roast? Considering Niche Zero or Eureka Oro SD.
can you retest this research but using a microscope? its really interesting
Maybe at some point when I am able to invest in a microscope.
@@Sprometheus I think some sort of cheap optical microscope should work well enough for looking at ground size
Vertically mounted flat burr machines should be tested against conical. They spin much slower than horizontal mounted flat burrs and have much less retention because gravity is taking care of both issues. I’ve modified a kitchenaid to accept mazzer mini burrs and it turned a pretty bad grinder into an incredible one. It handily beats any conical grinder under $1k in terms of consistency and flavor.
The differents in grind is visiual @ 1:34 and 2:50 as the conical grind show outer bean flakes.
okay a bit off topic but for real do I really need to have the motor running while adjusting grind size ?! I have never done this in over 5 years as a barista and am just now hearing that some teach this as necessity. I highly doubt I run a risk of jamming the burrs with micro adjustments of 1-2 mm.... really ?!
You only really need to have the motor running to adjust finer and there is coffee in the grinder. Otherwise the coffee beans between the burrs will just jam it so you can’t adjust finer.
very interesting video! the funny thing for me is, that i have hear/red/watched almost the same statements on flavour for conical vs flat, but switched out.... so as you said, not real facts
I disagree with the flat burr grinder being generally louder. My Fellow Ode Grinder works much more silent than my cheaper Breville Smart Pro Grinder. I agree with you that flat burr grinders are more expensive. I’ve also test grinded the Eureka Mignon Specialita, and it is not so loud. Am I missing something?
The loudest grinder I've ever heard is a baratza sette which is a conical. This video in general is very much uneducated and does not really tell you anything useful
I heard that conical is better for chemex, v60 , .. than flats, what do you think?
Mohamad Reza Ghamkhar i think that really comes down to personal preference honestly. I do think personally I prefer conical burrs for pour overs, but I have no scientific reason as to why. To me they just are more aromatic and acidic.
Very cool. I must admit I expected flat to do better. Probably because I always expect to want to spend money when you coffee nerds review or compare stuff. Great video as usual!
Off topic, but have you ever discussed wet vs dry processing and your preference?
-Joe
Grip Side thanks Joe! I think they are going to be pretty similar. The sift test ended up being wrong. A viewer caught the screens had been switched. I’m going to see if I can change that after the fact.
I haven’t really discussed processing her. I want to though. Will likely do that in the near future.
I think Conical burrs still produce a good coffee, I do think I prefer the flats generally. I usually use light roasts and make cappuccinos (I try the shot straight before adding anything) It seems like conicals produce more acidic, but less bitter shots which are interesting, but with milk added lack the intensity of flat burrs, which I think produce a bit more more bitterness, so for straight espresso with a medium or darker roast it might be preferable to use a conical burr machine, but for a light roast that's already acidic and not so bitter, I Think a flat burr is more ideal.
Turns out the differences are a lot more dramatic before the conical burrs are seasoned, I believe that conical burrs take longer to season due to having a larger surface area as well. But once enough coffee is put through them and they're seasoned, the differences aren't quite as dramatic. At first I was getting coffee that always tended to taste like it was being under extracted, more sour lacking in intensity or any bitterness. So I think that's why a lot of people dislike connical burr grinders, they don't give it a long enough chance to become seasoned and start working effectively.
After some years of experience and testing some different grinders, my conclusions are:
Conical grinders, better texture for a "traditional" espresso drinker
Flat grinders, more clarity, cleaner result
Flat grinders require a slower shot to take the same flavor from a conical grinder, maybe up to 6"
Flat grinders are more forgiving at slower shots, with the meaning that you will lose less flavor at a 40" shot for example
P.S. A better grinder A will always be better from a grinder B, no matter if it's conical or flat
Sprometheus, 3:37 : "And that's why you'll never see a hand grinder using flat burrs"
Orphan Espresso: On god?
What were the Kruve results for the conical grind?
James Martin check the pinned comment for the photos.
@@Sprometheus Thank you!
id love to get the niche for some single dosing but love the chocolate caramel notes from my espresso so im gonna have to stick
DF64V flat burr is very quiet and has super low retention, to the point where when I put 18mg in, 18mg comes out.
Like the two most popular grinders:
Eureka mignon specialita vs Baratza sette 270
eureka mignon specialita (Flat burrs 55mm):
- quiter
- slower 1.4 - 1.8 g/s
Baratza sette
(conical burrs 40mm):
- much louder
- faster 3.5 - 5.5 g/s
So generalizing these facts is a big mistake. :)
ald890 sounds to me like the Eurkea is using an underpowered motor, possibly to save costs. I do think generally it is true that flats are faster and louder, and conical are slower and quieter.
I believe the grinding faster comment refers to the rpm's at which the burrs are spinning.
Austin Kinne that’s mostly true. The burrs do spin faster, so theoretically they grind faster. But I guess it’s not true in all cases.
Hmmm when I last upgraded my grinder the research I did showed conical held MUCH more residual than flat burrs... Was around 3years ago but was surprised at your statement 🤔☕
philip davidson that’s interesting. All of the research I’ve heard and seen have shown otherwise. I haven’t seen anything about them holding more.
@@Sprometheus hmm things have seemingly moved on, they were commercial verients, all that was available few years ago.. However just checked out the Niche... blinder of a grinder but really like the K30 (1.8ish grms residual) I chose 4+yrs...ago... WBC use helped; though flat burr versions seem to offer perhaps more flexibility overall... Still hanker for a conical.. 😉😂 Great videos my man👍👍
My Ceado with the 83 mm burrs has NO clumps whatsoever. And it's super quiet
I have a Rancilio rocky and a Smart Grinder Pro so I get to test this out and from what I've found in regards to taste is the flat burr Rocky has a bit more creamy texture and more crema,but it isn't a huge difference between the two..I do think that I get a bit more flavor so to speak from the flat burr Rocky..As far as usability I'd say that the conical SGP is much easier and retains much much less grounds but produces more clumpy grounds..Now this could be comparing apples and oranges because the Rocky is a more expensive grinder,but I think it's as close as possible given that there aren't very many cheaper flat burr grinders
My understanding is that many Italian master coffee roasters believe in testing their roasts with conical grinders, cause they run cooler. Which explains why many rave the result
out of manual burr grinders such as Comandante. Also Niche Zero, which happens to have conical burrs, the burrs rotate at just 330 RPM vs the SGP which rotates faster. Part of the design success of the Niche Zero has to be attributed to the slower rotating conical burr design. It seems like there will be more and more coffee grinders tailored for home use such as the Turin DF64S which will have adjustable speed. Though DF64 has flat burr.
@@CoolJay77 Yeah low rpm grinders are said to produce better flavor profiles due to less heat while also allowing for a more even grind if the bean..
There is an exception with the baratza sette the outer burr spins and the inner is stationary. The speed of the grind I feel goes up against almost anything flat.
Thats interesting. Ive used the Sette a few times and never noticed the outer burrs spin. I wonder why that would increase the speed though...
@@Sprometheus Cool to hear from you, according to Baratza it's because the spinning outer burr actually sucks the beans in. Hence why the Sette works great as a single dose machine.
@@Sprometheus I can't say why is faster, but I can tell you my sette does 18g in about 4 seconds. It is fairly loud though.
Maybe the grindsize is different between the two grinders. So the flat burr made some clumping grounds.
I think the clumping on the flat is due to the grounds shoot being horizontal and the coffee has to be pushed through a square hole. This is what creates the clumps.
You also did a great job of showing the mechanical differences! Nice video.
marcus annegarn thanks Marcus! I appreciate that.
I'm a geek. I have both a flat burr and conical burr grinder. Here is what I do.
I blend 16oz weight total.
35% of the 16oz weight in medium roast Columbian Arabica/ 20% of the 16oz weight in dark roast Robusto/15% of the 16oz weight in medium roast Brazil/15% of the 16oz weight in light roast Sumatra/15% of the 16oz weight in light roast Ethiopian
The first three, Arabica Robusto and Brazil are blended together as a 3bean blend.
The last two, Sumatra and Ethiopian are blended together as a 2 bean blend.
I have my flat burr grinder set so that I get a 1:2 extraction within 28 seconds, using a 19gram dose. Using the 3bean blend. I run 13grams through the flat burr grinder.
As well as I have my conical burr grinder set for the same. A 1:2 extraction within 28seconds, using a 19gram dose. I run 6grams through the conical grinder
I then add both grinds together into a dosing cup, give it a shake and add to portafilter basket. Etc etc etc
Pre-infuse at low pressure. Soon as I see the extraction show through the naked portafilter, I go to full bar pressure and end the shot when 40grams has been reached.
What friction/heat are you talking about - between the burrs or in the motor/gear? I don't believe that correct aligned burrs touch each other.
The burrs touch the coffee though...
@@Wayfarer-Sailing but that is true for all burrs. There is no difference in heat/rpm ratio. If you turn both types of burrs with the same speed the heat will be equal.
@@kuzmanmarinov2832 They mentioned that flat needs higher speeds.
@@mikejason3822 Any speed without friction doesn't create heat. The friction is with the coffee which generally means that beans will be grinded faster (decrease contact time).
Tought on la marzocco home app?
I haven’t had a chance to use it yet, I’ve got an older model. I’ve asked for the retrofit kit, but no answer from them yet.
Why didn’t you show the sifting results from the Niche? Just got skipped over
Read the pinned comment.
@@Sprometheus Huh? There is no pinned comment on this video
@@commentator2.0 it’s there on my screen. Refresh the page.
@@Sprometheus ok I see it now. So you used the wrong filters only on the conical burrs? I would have thought you used the same setup on both burr sets but the link only has 1 set of pics
Jim Schulman of HB reported a blind tasting party between Niche EK43and a third grinder where the bottom line was : indestinguishable. I find that hard to believe but I guess it really challenges common coffee geek perception. (BTW he’s using Niche now everyday). My experience has been, the first time I experienced EK 43 espresso was the first time I could distinguish flavor notes clearly-almost like cupping. The change from the cafe Mazzer conicals was so dramatic and unanticipated. This isn’t necessarily better. But just saying.
I did like the video, however I don't think it's fair to call the flat vs conical; this is a comparison of these 2 grinders. There are a wide variety of flat, and conical burr geometry.
If you used the Lagom you have 2 burr sets to choose from.
Also sifting does not provide an accurate PSD as fines will stick to larger particles
Came to say the same thing. Can't make generalized statements about Burr types from two grinders.
As it goes I have to make do with what I have to test. I'm just a guy in a one bedroom apartment. In the end I know that there are always going to be holes in everything, but I can't let that stop me from following my curiosity.
The Real Sprometheus Agreed...no one can expect you to go drop $20k on grinders to test things across the board. I enjoyed the video as well especially since I just got a niche
There is little question that the flat burrs are heating, and therefore changing the flavor of, the coffee. Maybe it falls short of cooking or caramelizing, but it’s still changing the flavor.
I was always told ceramic conical burr was the best... Didn't realise it was down to preference
In the end a lot that has to do with coffee is mostly down to preference. I’ve found that I prefer stainless burrs over ceramic.
@@Sprometheus what difference is there?
Emmi the great thing about ceramics is they generally won’t dull, but they are brittle and can chip or break easily. They also don’t start out as sharp as steel. Ceramics are good for cafes because they don’t conduct as much heat as steel, so that’s a benefit. But at home, I still vote for steel.
In terms of flavor there is no real evidence that they taste different, but it comes down more to a preference.
@@Sprometheus interesting... See I coffee on a very tight budget so I got the hario skerton second hand for 14 quid. I have found it a huuuuge improvement over having pre ground coffee.
you didn't show the conical burr sifter results...
I have a ceado e37s and my niche 2.0 was delivered on Friday. I definitely taste less chocolate/caramel notes with the niche. I don't think one is better or worse I'm just surprised to see the coffee taste that differently between the two.
For sure. They both have their place, and it’s pretty fun to experience both side by side.
Did you just missed talking about the particle distribution of the conical burr grinds?
Check the pinned comment
Ok, I wanted to get into a burr war but I got to point something out first. Twice you said flat burr grinders are usually more expensive. How is that true in ANY case other then the impossible to buy Niche and Baratza (do they really count, 40mm?) How much is the Mazzer Robur and Kold cost? How about the Compak F10? They are the leaders in conical and they use them in their FLAGSHIP models. I really question the thinking that went behind that statement. He didn't say his preference but it is pretty clear. Also everyone online says the opposite. Chocolate tasting medium and dark roast for conical, light roasts for flats.
I have Eureka Specialita and Niche Zero.
I observed the exact same flavour notes you mentioned (flat=chocolate, bold taste and body, conical=fruits, acidity, rounder, less heavy body)
However, with light roasts the Niche provides a really dull performance, is it just me?
Ofir Inbar that’s interesting! How light are you talking? I feel like I should try this out. I haven’t done any real light roasts since getting the Niche.
@@Sprometheus Well, I'm holding the bag right now. It says "Kenya - Kangurumai AA / SCA 90". Very light roast.
it has quite the sourness actually haha :)
Loving light roasts through my Niche. Have you tried adjusting the grind? Too fine can be too sour.
Hi I have a Specialita and been thinking of upgrading to a NZ, I use medium roasts mostly, Do you think the upgrade would be worthwhile for the grind quality/taste improvement?
I feel like concial burrs cant get as fine as flat burrs. Thats why the flat burr has more clumps and also why it has a more darker less acidic profile because the grinds are finer. The conicals cant grind that thin and therefore are more acidic. Seems to me that coarser the grind more acid finer the grind more deeper notes.
New Recipe: Grind 9 grams on the conical grinder, and 9 grams on the flat grinder, combine, WDT, distribute, press; Target 25 seconds for 36 grams total. Alternate recipe: Grind 30 grams and sift for uniform particle size, then run again....
nice video sorry to say that it is not true, you are comparing one
of the best conical burrsets even in niche with questionable alignment however in conical burrset it is not so important to crappy, dull 64mm mazzer flat burrs in mazzer with upper carrier held by springs questionable tolerances and runout. Btw getting decent pour on aligned grinder with tight grind distribution is much more challenging than on grinder with wide particle distribution
If there's one thing I've learned on my years on CZcams, its you can't please everyone. In the end I enjoyed making the video, and people can take from it what they want. Either way, thanks for watching.
The Real Sprometheus well said
Few month ago I tasted this light roadsed single origin washed Ethiopian esoresso in Oslo,Norway. It was the most excieting,delicouse with citrus notes espresso I ever tasted.It became my "Rabbit hole" to chase. The place name was Supreme Roastworks and was established by a Norwegian ex-barisra champion.
However they uses Mazzer Major/Robur (Flat burrs)....so I gues my anacdotical take on the question "which is best for light roasts" would be Flat burrs.
The Norwegian coffee place: g.co/kgs/x1uG3H
The Robur has conical burrs. The Major has flat burrs.
What was the outcome of sifting for the Niche?? You cut that footage out for some reason... Possibly the most important factor and you cut it!
Read the pinned top comment and view the link
@@Sprometheus Seems like its gone?
I prefer the conical burrs
We don’t get to see the sifting results of the conical burrs….? Dang
Check the pinned comment
@@Sprometheus very interesting to see how many fewer fines are on the conical. Been rocking a Vario doing espresso for years but wanted to check out the 270wi and wondering if there will be a significant fines and retention reduction.
I don't understand how is that a comparison if you just SKIPPED showing the grounds distribution of the Niche?? (Minute 5:56) I'm disappointed.
chrisoh16 read the pinned comment.
It would be cool to see a comparison of grinders where you change your grind sizes until the quantity of fine grounds in the middle or last screen is similar between the grinders... to reduce uncertainty in the grind sizes between grinders
For sure. I was really focused on removing as many levels of fines as possible. And I still messed up on the conical size and swapped the screens. I’ll be posting an update to that soon.
Hang on there just a minute. What happened to the grind differential sift comparison between burr types. YOU ONLY SHOWED ONE. That is not a comparison and hints towards a bias. Bias is what discredits a fair and neutral comparison. 5:20 But then again this is not a science class.
I’ll ask that you think critically and maybe check the comments for why that portion was removed, and the results posted in a separate link.
@@Sprometheus My comment was based solely on the video content. I found your video visually stimulating and contains very good info in regards to contrasting burr types. If your goal is to inform then better to revise and republish then leave out the critical info. Thanks for posting
I'm curious why you sifted the coffee but didn't compare the weight in each grind size fraction for the two grinders. This is a surprising omission to me.
Read the pinned comment
@The Real
Sprometheus WHAT IS GOING ON WITH THESE RESULT COMPARISON OF FLAT TO CONICAL MULTI-LEVEL FILTER RESULTS? 5:43 to 6:03 you totally skipped the multitude levels of Concil burr grinder coffee results.
Is the all caps really necessary? And considering you took the time to write this comment maybe you should take the time to look at the comment section and perhaps, just perhaps an answer can be found in the pinned comment.
Next time , When ur Explain somthin (( Stop The F***in MUSIC )) >> Cause i want to hear you well ..
Thanks