Within Feet of Another Airplane and Never Saw Them - AirVenture Fisk 2024
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- čas přidán 8. 09. 2024
- Flying Formation Without Knowing It is NOT Recommended!!
I DID NOT Consent to being in that Flight!
Those were a couple other "working titles" for this one - That’s what happened during my 2024 Fisk Arrival…
Shout out to SiriusXM Aviation - having access to weather data while flying is a game changer!
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Both Matt and I are wearing Bose Aviation A30 headsets, which are a huge asset for clear communications on a flight like this! It is critical to be able to hear everything, and be heard clearly; At no time did either of us have any issues understanding the constant radio chatter while also being able to easily talk to each other over the intercom.
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Thanks to all of my Flight Sim friends for being a part of building the RV-14 home sim set up. The gap between real world flying and home flight simulation is closing FAST!
LINKS:
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And thanks to Lepp Aviation for getting the shot of our landing.
It is REALLY hard to track and maintain focus on an aircraft during approach and landing roll, but he nailed it!
/ leppaviation
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I am a "weekend warrior" private pilot, I fly for fun with no intentions of going commercial.
I have had my PPL for over 20 years, but still consider each flight a learning experience
- I generally take detailed notes after each flight to remind myself what went well or what I could do to improve....
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A few suggestions from a lot of fisk arrivals:
- eyes outside all the time. the traffic display can be handled by your copilot.
- don’t succumb to the temptation to fly faster than 90-95 kts. if you go fast, people behind you go fast too, then everybody has to slow down near ripon/fisk. result is the traffic jam you saw. go 90-95 kts out by the lakes and let the traffic behind settle in a bit, even if you have a big gap ahead. yes, you might get cut off but you can see that coming.
- minimize talking. commentary can wait.
- assign your copilot very specific tasks like distance callouts, radio frequency setting, and traffic lookout. do it ahead of time so you don’t have to discuss in the plane.
- stay over the tracks 90/1800 even when the plane ahead appears to wander. just keep your eye on him.
- if you get too slow due to traffic ahead, full power, right turn. try again. no harm, no foul
great videos. thank you.
Airventure is one of those exceptional cases where i believe birds with multiple occupants should have a sterile cockpit all the way to touchdown.
There is way too much going on in that jam-packed airspace. And we need to be 110% radio attentive for that auctioneer of a controller, as he dishes out commands aplenty.
If you flew in over Fisk on Sunday that was me talking to you! I also waved you off when you departed! Sweet looking RV! I didn’t realize it was you until I saw the flight chops stencil on the side then noticed you flying it!
I'm a glider pilot, and we have to do lookout like this literally all the time, as glider pilots will always all converge on the same sources of lift. We routinely end up getting very close. The one thing most of us know - never wear a baseball cap like your copilot in this video - you're blocking out half your field of vision.
And the copilot is also slightly unaware of the severity of this incident.
Copilot needed to be scaning a lot more, and actually turn around 180 to view backwards.
@@hhgttg8034 For sure, a lot of the time he was replying he didn't see anything before he even properly looked.
The other reason not to wear the baseball cap is the ones with the studs at the top, when you hit the bumps will smash the stud into your skull or through the canopy.
why is hear wearing a cap AND shades?
Steve, I was stressed for 22 out of the 25 minutes and I'm just WATCHING. No idea how you guys do it but man my hat goes off to you.
😬😂🤷
All the emojis for this one.
Like I told my step-daughter when she was learning to drive, "You can be 100% legal and still be dead, killed by someone else's stupidity"
There are a lot of dead people who had the right of way.
That's exactly why I refuse to ride motorcycles on the road.
Riding bikes these days is dicey AF. Too many H&R's
This very thing is what kept me from getting my driver's license for so many years.
There is nothing in this world I hate and fear more than being killed, or cripplingly injured out of living life, by someone else's incompetence or bad decision making.
Mirrors help in watching your back, and popping some smoke can help you get noticed. And remember, not everyone in the arrival has ADS-B! Slide that shade back and look up too.
Also a rearview cam, and a nose cam so you can see if someone is under your nose. We can add this easily with XFS software from Avilution. Already demoed it in the old Opener Blackfly(new name now) 2 years ago. Can be on your PFD or MFD display (or dedicated)
I’m a little amazed that some pilots in other videos seem to believe that all aircraft have ADS-B. Almost no time spent looking out the window.
I went through and looked at ADSB and saw the Cessna 177 that was behind you. I won't list the tail number here. Your altitude separation had been close to under 25ft at their closest range which is scary for how close they got to you. This could have been another accident at KOSH due to their negligence and I'm glad you took the initiative and had the situational awareness to keep yourself and that pilot flying again.
Thanks for not outing them. It is what it is and I learned from this (like I didn’t think to use the ADS-B info to pull up the tail number and try a radio call. Or I should have just bailed and started over.
@@FlightChopsI fly pipeline for income. I run into possible conflicts all the time as I’m flying low level and constantly crossing airports and a ton of farmland, which has a lot of ag spraying this time of year.
I run two ipads, and my second iPad is typically on a 10 mile ring zoom size for SA. When things get hectic, the zoom goes in to a 5 mile ring, such as when I’m working the Denver airspace or Oklahoma City with four controlled airspaces in top of each other. On my dash the ATS-B is on a 2 mile ring with audio alerts.
Regularly I will reach out to other aircraft by tail number, especially ag aircraft. Things are actually getting close when you’re within 1/4 to 1/2 mile. So indeed you all were starting to get tight. Inside 1/4 mile is time for some pretty immediate action if you don’t have eyes on the other target and especially if your flight tracks are intersecting with similar altitudes.
This is another reason why I tell people “see and avoid” is not even close to being reliable for safety on its own. I wrote several college papers on the topic while earning my degree.
I went into FR24s historical data to see what you were talking about. Oh man was that indeed super close and RIGHT in the perfect blind spot for BOTH aircraft. Great situational awareness by Steve to get a bit higher so that the C177 could potentially see them. Clearly the Cardinal pilot was not nearly as in tune with their surroundings. Further cementing my desire to go to OSH by car, and not aircraft.
EDIT: What's terrifying is at FISK, encroachment was occurring AGAIN with two planes behind Chops and the Cardinal too!
Imagine realising you messed up THEN realising that it’s flightchops and he’s definitely filming.
😂🫠🤓🤷😎
Glad I could snag you guys and that you got on the ground safely! Great landing!
ADS-B should be a requirement for all aircraft on the FISK arrival. The SimVenture virtual arrival simulation is a great tool that more pilots should take advantage of.
I've only flown in to AirVenture twice so far, and it was easy. As you near the area you can see all the other planes 30-50 miles out on your screen, and as you get to the start point of the approach (I had Green Lake both times), everyone just seems to naturally funnel into line. The fact that this guy was right on your six for so long, and so close that tower thought you were a flight of two....he had no business flying in with that sort of situational awareness/skills!!
Yup - if that hadn't happened, my 2024 Fisk arrival experience would have been an entirely different story.
But sharing this video has allowed for a good discussion on many fronts.
My two main take-aways from the feedback I've received:
1) If I'd thought of tapping the traffic maker icon of the ADS-B target, I could have probably got his tail number, and found a quiet time on frequency to attempt to raise him (this is a contentious issue though, as we are really not meant to transmit on the Fisk frequency. Regardless, I didn't think of a way to get his tail number at the time, so it's a moot point to suggest I should have made a random call about someone being too close, as it would have been fruitless and just added to the chaos).
2) If I really thought it was a serious threat, I should have made the conservative decision and voluntarily bailed out of the line to start over (which I did do in 2023). This was definitely something I was considering... but I was weighing it against the risk of starting over, as I do find the merge to be a dangerous part of the process on a busy day. No question, I pushed ahead longer than I should have, but it was fresh in my mind that I've had erroneous traffic alerts during aerobatic flying recently, and I allowed that to plant the seeds of doubt that it was a real target.
3) in future I am likely going to avoid these busy windows (my 2023 and 2024 schedule did not allow for that) and/or I will be flying the high / fast arrival procedure as my airplane is much better suited to be going 135 than dragging it in at 90 for 20+ minutes.
@@FlightChopsI get it, your experience with ghost images on your ADS-B was a serious confounding factor! But from the first time in this video that the Cessna was climbing up your tail I was talking to my iPad telling you to get out of the conga line! As you guessed, I suspect the Cessna pilot was flying above 1800’ and you were under his nose.
A pipeline pilot commented earlier here that it’s really worth having a second screen up with ForeFlight running for ADS-B traffic monitoring. I do this whenever I fly into busy airspace around Bravos such as DFW or ORD, and this has given me time to avoid traffic a couple of times. It’s scary how close other aircraft can be without having eyes on them.
Great video! A little unsettling that you never saw that other guy despite being so close for so long..... Great job fellas.
Thanks 👍
MM has that rear facing camera. Would have been nice to have here.
First time flying into OSH for me this year. The stress is so real. Oddly we had the same thing happen with the guy behind us. Landed 18 on the yellow dot. The show was great and your plane looked amazing. Thanks for sharing!
I had an even scarier one ,approaching oshkosh in 2007 ,first we had 2 planes going the wrong direction around the rush lake. We were flying a globe swift ,had a j3 in front of us , we were following the tracks, it was on the verge of going vfr. We were trying everything to give the J3 enough space, we pop out the cloud, he's going as fast as he can ,we are going as slow as he can. Just before we make our turn, they brought a citation in in front of the j3. I don't know how the hell the J3 didn't up in a smoking hole in the ground, it was the sketchiest thing I have ever done in an aircraft. I have never stood on the brakes like that before, possibly the shortest globe swift roll out ever, I was vibrating with adrenalin by the time we pulled off the runway.
One word describes the chaos:
INTENSE!
There’s a lot of talking/ discussion and looking and maneuvering for visual contact. Id recommend a more “sterile” cockpit with pre briefed CRM, with a deliberate departure of the pattern until visual with other airplane
I saw your plane at AirVenture, it was cool seeing the plane I’ve watched on your channel in person!
While the blame might be on another airplane that is bearing down on you from behind, the course of action is on you. Drop out of the approach and start over. Even if they are in the wrong, deciding to get away from the problem is another option. And that copilot needed to be much more active on the swivel focusing on the 180 far more. While ADB-B is a great enhancement, finding that airplane indicated on the display physically in the air is much harder then you would think.
I fundamentally agree with your comment. But it wasn't ego that was driving me to stay in; it was weighing the risk of trying the merge again during a busy time - I find that part to be the most risk. That traffic behind me set off the yellow alarm once, but if it did again, or went red, I was primed and ready to bail.
I would be very cautious about suddenly bailing out of the line with another aircraft that close to me but without a visual on it. What if it's directly in your blind spot and by turning left or right 90 degrees you fly directly into its path? I would prefer to stay in line and accelerate in the direction where I can see clear air - in this case, straight ahead. Once I had a decent amount of separation showing on the scope, only then would I consider bailing out.
Long tailed cats in a rocking chair store. Great work!!
Glad you guys are all good. Fisk approach seems very stressful.
It would be a good idea to have a couple of 360 cameras one on top and one below to see this craziness on OshKosh approach for the ones that are dreaming of flying our own planes to Oshkosh one day. Thank you
Hi from the UK. That was a brilliant video. Love the sim too.
Steve, that Cardinal was about a minute behind you when you made your right turn in front of him at Puckaway Lake. He was going 15kts faster than you and closed the gap.
Frustrating… But also kinda glad I was able to capture this. It was a painful debrief and it’s been good to share it.
@@FlightChops Steve, did you have your landing light on? That might have helped the Cardinal see you because I can tell from ADS-B that you were almost pointed right at him before you made your right turn ahead of him. Also, when you were in the right turn your left wing would have blocked your view of him.
@@igclapp I was fully lit up with wig wags going from my departure at KUNU.
Why not tap his signal on the screen to check his GS against yours.. ?
I remember flying with my father 30 years ago, direct into runway 35 at MTW (uncontrolled airport) in a Cherokee. Call out 4 miles south of the runway, only to get another callout that they are 4 miles south of MTW also. My dad asks where specifically as we can't see them. He says over the Manitowoc Company, my dad responded, "so are we". Things got super tense until I spotted them about 100 feet below, just in front of where the wing, where it meets the fuselage. They were in a high wing and there was zero way they saw us there. They ended up making a 360 turn to the right to regain separation. Always stories to tell. I miss GA flying.
Thanks for sharing the arrival Chops. At least you weren't diverted to the absolutely bonkers rwy 18 approach.
I landed 18 in 2022, it was interesting. 😂
Hey Steve - Good to meet you at camp SA! See you next year!
Awesome to see a large chunk of that arrival. For those of us who have only dreamed of flying into Osh it was fun to see how it works. Dang, spooky having a target that close. Thanks for the episode FlightChops!
Just realized you can just see him at 14:10; same altitude and right behind. GoPro makes it look far but from experience if you can see them in the GoPro then they're very close.
Right - I studied the footage and noticed this too Gotta love 4K footage!
(actually that's less than 4K - it is insta360 X3 which is a max of 5.7K for the entire 360 degrees!)
- but it was so hard to see I just decided it wasn't worth making that a part of the story. 👍
You could be right there.
What a jackhole.
Back in the late 80's whilst flying along the RR track transition in just barely VFR conditions, my dad and I were almost t-boned by a "lost" B-17. Missing it by less than a 100m and luckily we just kissed the wake turbulence. It is definitely the closest a Bonanza will ever be to emulating a Messerschmitt. Could have been tragic, but now a "cool" memory.
I was watching arrivals when you came in and heard the whole thing. I was sitting in about the same spot last year when the guy was flying against traffic, too.
What great heart-in-your-throat tale!
Like you were out there observing (and listening on freq) to the Fisk arrivals somewhere near Fisk? Is that a more exciting show than being on the field watching the landings on the dots? 😂
@@FlightChops I was sitting basically at the green dot, but you can see and hear a lot. The mis-directed pilot flew right over my head.
I flew in once with my father-in-law as PIC in the '80s. He handled the madness with aplomb and I was too inexperienced to be scared.
Just completed my first ever discovery flight today. It was incredible! With any luck, I’ll be able to attend AirVenture 2025 (or maybe 2026. No need to rush my flight training 😜)
Right on! Enjoy your training.
But DO NOT feel the pressure to fly into this event as a new pilot.
Sit right seat with a more experienced pilot as PIC, or have a pilot that has more experience than you fly right seat with you as PIC - and aim to come when it isn't busy like this - I've not had the option to come earlier the past few years, so I've been stuck flying the crazy pre show Saturday / Sunday gauntlet...
That was intense! I'm not a pilot but fly during the summers fighting fires. So many radio's. reminded me of the stress of IMC.
Great video! I’m sure you know that with the Garmin equipment that you have, that by selecting traffic from the menu, you can easily identify the tail number of an airplane within range. I don’t know, but I would have got that tail number and although you’re not supposed to talk on the Fisk frequency just quickly said hey- Cessna, you’re getting uncomfortably close to me and you need to widen it up.
Yes, this would have been a good idea, I didn't think of doing that at the time.
Great video! Stressful but seems much better than the previous year!
Yeah, this was much smoother than last year, but still not ideal. 😬
So crazy, I've done that a 1/2 dozen times, you've gotta, just gotta be on your game. I couldn't see that joker either, well done thought. Nice job Steve 👀👀👀👀
Always be ready to bail on your plan, was landing at cape may a few weeks ago and heard someone on CTAF he was turning base, I was almost to base and did not have eyes on him, I just throttled up and announced I was leaving the pattern upwards and circled around to try again, not sure where he was, or if he was even in the pattern, might have been at a neighboring airport and mixed up his call, but better safe the sorry.
I get ghost reflections occasionally and was thinking next time I should tap on the marker on the iPad to see a tail number. I'm using Sentry Plus to feed the iPad.
I wish I’d thought of that. I think the G3X will give that info if you tap the traffic marker.
Your video has convinced me never to fly into that nightmare. Is it possible to get there a week in advance and miss all that chaos altogether?
Yes but it doesn't take a week. Get there on the Friday before it opens. I came in on Thursday around 18:30 and did see a single plane.
Yes flying in a before the first weekend is a much better way to do it. I didn’t have that option this year.
Fly into KFLD Fond du Lac. Tower, 20 minute shuttles, showers, camping, friendly, easy peasy.
New subscriber after seeing you on the advertisement for Soar 24 in Sarnia. Great video
Awesome! Thanks and Welcome!
Nerves of steel! Pulse rate? Great video Steve. :)
I arrived at Air-venture three different years. Never did I need or use a glass panel. I did not care who was behind me. I just paid attention looked out side kept my pre determined air speed and never had an issue at all. Cover the panel fly the plane that’s all it takes!
It’s aways a little freaky to be that close to another aircraft without actually seeing it.
Let's hear it for brightly painted, high vis aircraft!
I tried 😂
Quick tip and something readily available to nearly all pilots. Use your phone as a mirror if you cannot see directly behind you. Just turn it to selfie mode so you can see what the camera sees.
Saw you plane at Airventure this year - much more beautiful in person.
Its just a matter of time until there is a catastrophic in flight midair collision. Last years helo/gyro midair was just a prelude and should have been a red flag to EAA. Your skills don't matter when you are potentially surrounded by inept aviators, and I use the term "aviator' loosely.
Those people pretending to be aviators are the same people that shouldn't be driving a car yet they're everywhere...on the ground and in the air. It's those same stupid drivers that fly those planes...the idiots you scream at on the road are probably on the way to the airport.
@@user-jh7nc3pv8h spoken like a true pelican
Well……
I mean you're not wrong, the fatal this year, the guy had previously crashed from fuel exhaustion (the one thing that is always 100% the pilots fault)
Spot on. A lot of CFIs aren’t properly training people to be safe pilots. I feel bad for the students that don’t know they are being poorly instructed and developing habits that can kill them. I won’t even get started about the boomers that think they own the sky… Nearly had a head on by some ahole that decided to transition through an uncontrolled field at pattern altitude reverse of pattern traffic.
What the heck was that pilot who was on your tail thinking? Or were they thinking at all?! Glad you made it safely there. I will be there next year camping under my wing. Cheers from Winnipeg.
I can only imagine he never saw us... If he did see us, and stayed that close it is mind boggling... We were meant to be spaced 2 miles by the time we got to Fisk and he was more like 1/4 mile behind us.
@@FlightChops Or worse, saw but just didn't care. Bright yellow bird like yours with all nav lights on would be hard to miss at the same altitude as close as he was.
Get the binder. ....GET THE BINDER
I think Matt was feeling a bit overwhelmed at that moment and didn’t catch it the first time I said it 😅
Great job. Just incredible that the Cessna never saw you. No traffic displays, or working eyeballs apparently. They put you in a tough spot, but I'm glad they pulled them out rather than you. SimVenture footage on PilotEdge was excellent, too!
We flew in once and never again, they dont follow the strict rules. We came up on a single engine going way to slow and almost stalled and your not supposed to pass or pull out of line. Lucky someone on the ground saw what was going on and told the slowpoke to peel off. So many idiots that should not have a license. We will never go back.
The pucker factor is real. Great job!
Man that was definitely a scary approach with the other aircraft on your 6 so close. Great idea to climb and rock the wings to ensure your tail bandit had sight of you….. Rotorflex👍
Dang. Cars have 'em, might be a good time to install a camera for low and behind (low wing blind spot). But you have so many screens in the cockpit now..... ufdah!
No need for more tech, just need competent pilots…
Ufdah? Are you Finnish? Never heard that word anywhere else :D
@@Bassalicious Naw, picked it up in Minnesota.
@@ronboe6325 In Suomi it's a multipurpose (non-)swear word from what I've learned. Fits everything from stubbing your toe to losing a loved one apparently
Perkele!
There were a couple spots in the video you COULD see the trailing aircraft right behind you. Best one is just as you did the Fisk wing rock from the radio. You can see the plane level right behind you. 21:58 timecode to start right over the copilots shoulder.
Yes, reviewing the hi res footage I was able to see that as well.
16:05 Stress!
It would be pretty sweet if Bose set us up with a couple of those A30s.
I'm way behind on watching; been making NY trip videos; you know what that's like. Wish I could have been at OSH to see your IAC presentation. Watching someone else fly into OSH always clenches me up. Oddly enough, even doing it single pilot I think I wasn't as nervous coming in myself, but Thursdays are so much easier, it's like cheating. I just posted the first day of the NY trip, if you want to see your cameo and the fun drive in and out of the power outage.
That's a really high workload environment. Would be tough for me to land my little E-LSA RV-12 there when it only does 115 kts..
Man, years ago I used to dream of one day being able to fly into Oshkosh, but every year I think it’s maybe not that good of a thing. All the videos I watch are highly stressed pilots, and a seasoned Oshkosh pilot like yourself has had some real bad approaches (too close). I honestly think I’d rather drive in now!
Yeah, I think my motivation in sharing these Fisk flights is more of a PSA to show people what they can be in for if they go during the busy times (I’ve had to do it this way the past 3 years in a row and it’s been very challenging each time.)
That’s dicey. Would bringing a pocket mirror be a helpful tool next year? Or a Mike Patey inspired rear facing camera integrated into Garmin
From 14:10 to 14:14 you can see the aircraft just above horizon right above the 2 small lakes. I presume that is the aircraft in question?
Thanks for the video. It was very helpful.
always amazing how professional you are. is calling in a pan-pan an option, when in risk of a mid-air? thanks for sharing!
Thanks, but in this situation, making a call on the Fisk frequency would have just added to the chaos. The best course of action if you feel traffic is a threat, is to avoid it by bailing out of the line and flying to safety away from the procedure and then regrouping and deciding if diverting to an other airport, or trying the procedure gain by merging at the current active transition way point.
Hindsight is 20/20 as they say, but you do have a portable rear-view mirror in your passenger's pocket. Have them take out the phone and put it into selfie mode, then you can get a direct view behind the plane. This is making me think if I ever do fly to Osh it will be about 3-4 days (or more) before the official fly in.
Well done, the chest was pumping near the end there. 🤙
My flight school planes get echoes on their NemoScouts all the time... its crazy!
Wow mate, bloody good job…..nice cockpit too…
thank you for sharing!
Cool vid, Steve! Not sure what the flap speed is on the RV, but when you mentioned the higher oil temperature, it got me thinking if there was a bit of flap on, would that give ya a lower nose attitude and better cooling?🤔 Something to experiment with if ya need an excuse to go flying. heheheh😁
Good video; interesting situation. Retired Navy pilot here. I don’t have a lot of private flying time and have never been to Oshkosh so I’m asking this for my own knowledge. In hindsight, would it have been feasible to ask for a maneuver such as descending and/or doing an360 degree turn to look for the traffic and get some separation? Glad you’re safe and thanks for sharing your experience.
Thanks and welcome! In the case of the Fisk arrival procedure, ATC isn't "Working" anyone until you actually get to Fisk and the ATC crew are in tge ground at a trailer (several miles away from the airport) and they visually identify you and ask you to rock your wings to acknowledge instructions - we're not able to talk due to how congested it is. Regardless, there is no maneuvering on the arrival corridor either, we need to be spaced well, or bail out and start over at whatever the current initial transition waypoint is. Turning back or trying to do a 360 would almost definitely create a conflict.
@@FlightChops Thanks for the answer, make sense. We had similar VFR arrival procedures in the Navy at training command bases except we were talking to approach control before entering the airport traffic area. Understand how maneuvering would create conflict and confusion unless bailing out of the entry procedure. Thanks again…
UFO checking out those skills
My Butt puckered when you put up the first cell phone photo of your map.
Just a small point:
Be careful rocking your wings on the approach, because the controllers use it to identify who they’re talking to. If they see more than one plane rock, they think there might be confusion as to who is receiving instructions.
This is an understandable concern, but I was many miles away from Fisk while trying to get the attention of that other plane. No concerns about a controller on the ground seeing us yet.
Not an expert, but I am surprised it took so long to get rid of the roof screen in such a high intensity area
2:30 Is that the same Controller talking? IRL and SIM ?
And Holy Moly, close.
Most likely. The SimAviation controllers use it as practice for the actual Oshkosh arrivals.
Excellent!
I kept looking in the background to see if I could see that high wing. Anxiety provoking.
It’s almost like throwing out the way we do air traffic control on a daily basis is stupid
Pretty much.
"NO CONDOM!" He said it at 11:34, I replayed it a few times to make sure! Clearly this brings out the anxiety of many pilots flying into Oshkosh!
"No Conflict" 😂
@@FlightChops Nope! It was “no condom.” I’m 57 years old and hear everything perfectly!
Oshkosh seems way too chaotic for anyone who is not current in flight hrs and their airframe. awesome opportunity, but fraught with danger if not competent.
How coukd that guy not seee you damn thats crazy
It's hard to see a plane if you're directly behind it.
Yay!
I don't know the rules for arrival at AirVenture, but as PIC, why didn't you turn left/right and get out of the situation? I get occasional false returns flying in the LA Basin, but not like this. I would have broken left/right and extended off the approach for better SA.
Yes, the conservative move would have been to bail and start over. I was very close to doing that when I got the yellow warning.
These shows seem terrifying to fly into...
WOW
Imagine not having that much canopy and avionics. If you can't see it with that airplane - you're not going to see it in any airplane.
Looks like that close traffic in sight @14:10 just off the horizontal stabalizer
And that’s the reframed 5.7K insta360 footage - so yeah, he was close if that’s seeing him 😬
Tiny speck just off of horizontal stabilizer at 14:12 Edit: right above the two lakes
@@FlightChops no kidding… well handled anyways! Makes me wonder if they missed you joining the line up too. Very spooky.
nice flyin!
I know the altitudes are specified in the arrival procedure but I wonder if descending 100' (with a low wing, you have amazing visibility upwards in that RV) in order to gain separation and potentially allow for better vis of the other aircraft. Afterall, separation should trump the procedure... You may not have quite been at that point yet, but wondering what the thoughts are on that. Of course, final option would be to turn around and re-enter... safety always trumps 'getting there'... even if it's 'not fair'. As always, thanks for posting this! Always look forward to your videos.
I think overall it's better to have all planes at the same altitude so that at least you will be able to see the plane you are following (although for some reason it didn't work for the plane following Steve). Having high wing planes fly a few hundred feet above low wing planes sounds like a good idea except that the pilot of a high wing plane cannot see an aircraft below and directly in front or directly behind the aircraft. Also if you are in a low wing aircraft you should absolutely not descend if you cannot see traffic that is reported to be nearby (by ATC or by your ADS-B unit). You might descend onto the traffic! Never fly where you cannot see! If you suspect a plane is nearby, fly towards a part of the sky that you have a clear view of!
@@igclapp Seeing planes directly ahead of you at the same altitude can be extremely difficult.
@@edcew8236 I know that from personal experience, as not much surface area is presented. Perhaps the white navigation light in the tail can be bumped up to landing light-like brightness for daytime use. Easy to do now with white LED's.
Why no audio warning of the traffic.l have the same set up in a 14. With visual head up in busy airspace, hence no need to continue with continuous display monitoring. Have AT1 display with audio as well as ADSB?Garmin G3x 345R and 650 xi.Great overview of arrival!
The warning only happens when the traffic is a threat that’s closing at a certain rate.
If you stick it out through the video I got the yellow warning but for the most part I don’t think the closure rate was enough for the system to consider it a threat.
Great video, great sharing of experience. Is that the other aircraft at 14:12 just above the right horizontal stabilizer (left side of the rear view)?
yup
I looked at the ADSB data and that C177 was certainly real. See and Avoid is not a great means of separation eh?
What I learned from the feedback of this epiosde is that I could have just clicked the icon on the display and seen his tail number. It would gaze at least confirmed for me that he was real, and also given me something to use if I wanted to make a specific radio call (a controversial thing to do on the Fisk freq).
Great job! Quite stressful. Did you consider turning back as a self-sacrificing measure to avoid contact? - I agree with some critics, all things considered, the event's growing popularity seems to increase the difficulty level and thus hazards for everyone involved. Re.: Lancair fatality, DA42 mishap. - Will this prove sustainable?
Yes I was very close to bailing. But I find the initial merge to be so risky when it is busy, that I was weighing the option against that. (Did you see my last year video? (I did bail that time)
@@FlightChops Yes, I did. And I remember it. - I’m glad to learn you considered it. You were 100% on the ball. Your decision-making process was excellent. - You are consistently diligent and self-critical to the right degree. This is one of your channel's great contributions. Your standards are high. I wish such diligence was more widespread. - Did you find out who it was? It would be material for an excellent debrief video. (By the way, I know how easy it is to be an armchair quarterback, AND how 'HOT' the left seat can get. So, far be it from me to point fingers.)
The Lancair seems to be attributable to pilot miscontrol, TBD, when told to extend and make way for two jets landing 36. The DA42 seemed to get slow as a factor. Neither attributable to the arrival.
@@edcew8236 You're probably right. The incidents may not be directly attributable to the arrival process. Still, the general context does increase everyone's stress level and I wonder if that doesn't contribute to setting the stage for unusually challenging demands on piloting skills. Nothing ever takes away pilots' responsibilities, but context does matter.
Avoid the Warbirds... lol😂
I would be driving to Osh next time. 😟
I flew in once. Never again.
Great video! Been to OSH twice and Fisk arrival is sketchy for sure. Nothing on the panel showed the ADSB N number / and speed info for the airplane you were trying to see?
If I clicked the icon on the G3X I think it would have, but I didn’t think of that at the time / I was really just trying to stay visual and fly the airplane. Learning a lot from the insights and feedback from sharing this.
@@FlightChops Roger that. Really nice job not getting complacent and talking yourself into it being ownship. For those of us who started flying way before ADSB and in busy airspace, ADSB is humbling and scary at the same time. There are way more airplanes close to you than you thought.
I was thinking about how I sometimes have trouble visually acquiring traffic directly ahead of me when coming into a busy airport due to the small surface area presented by the airplane in front of me, especially if it's hazy. I wonder if a possible solution would be to install a very bright white LED (maybe blinking) as the tail light for daytime use?
15:02 This is the time to do some Dutch rolls! Show those yellow wings!
Look at this clusterf*ck, and people actually think we're gonna have flying cars like the Jetsons...
There are already unmanned air taxis being churned out for NY and SC airspaces so buckle up folks, it's gonna get weird for you
SF* not SC
New pilot here, I understand the tower doesn’t want traffic from you unless you’re close but if you think you’re going to have an emergency issue, why not call them to contact the guy that’s to close? That’s the ATC’s job. He has to clearly see the two planes were to close.
In any other situation that would make sense but not during the Fisk arrival.
It’s just total chaos on the radio if you try to talk.
ATC is really not working aircraft in a traditional way during this thing.