Superman v Jesus: Zack Snyder's Christ Figure
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- čas přidán 15. 12. 2018
- Superman is the quintessential American hero. As a result, he has inevitably drawn comparisons to another timeless hero-Jesus Christ. But is this connection fair? Or even true?
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Thank you for watching Thought & Word. I hope you enjoyed this video essay and until next time, take care!
Film Credits:
Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice. Directed by Zack Snyder, performances by Henry Cavill, Ben
Affleck, and Jesse Eisenberg, Warner Brothers, 2016.
“DJesus Uncrossed.” Saturday Night Live, created by Lorne Michaels, performance by Christoph
Waltz, season 38, episode 14, NBC Studios, 2013.
Justice Leauge. Directed by Zack Snyder, performances by Henry Cavill, Ben Affleck, and Ezra Miller,
Warner Brothers, 2017.
Man of Steel. Directed by Zack Snyder, performances by Henry Cavill, Russell Crowe, Ayelet Zurer,
Kevin Costner, and Dylan Sprayberry, Warner Brothers, 2013.
Son of God. Directed by Christopher Spencer, performance by Diogo Morgado, Hearst Entertainment
Productions, 2014.
The Passion of the Christ. Directed by Mel Gibson, performance by Jim Caviezel, Icon Productions,
2004.
#Superman #Jesus #ZackSnyder - Zábava
Strange visitor from another realm who came to Earth with powers and abilities far beyond those of mortal men.
You deserves more subs man, such well-edited video essay, visually aesthetic and I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought the similarity of Christ and superman😊 looking forward for more vids from you👍 cheers from Indonesia
Thanks for the positive response! I definitely have ideas for more videos, just need to get to work and make them a reality.
What I've never understood is why, if she is one of the three most recognized superheroes in the planet, are we all sleeping on Wonder Woman.
You know, besides sexism. "Is not a strong _female_ character enough!", "She's not femenine enough!" "She is too femenine!" "This feels forced!"
But in Blackest Night, one of the in-canon stories (before they reinvented the universe all over again), and one of the most popular arcs in Green Lantern history, Wonder Woman is the one chozen by the Emotional Spectrum to wield the power of love. In the actual narration, Wonder Woman is proclaimed to be it's ultimate embodiment, one that can even overcome the slight madness that the Star Sapphires suffer if they bond with their rings. I read it in spanish, but I believe the exact words are "nobody loves in this planet more than the Wonder Woman".
And keep in mind, only a handful of the heroes are chozen to be temporal Corps. Mera is chozen by the Wrath, Luthor by the Greed, and Atom, (bless his heart), is chozen by the Compassion.
They are the only ones because they represent their emotion to the max, which happens to be the bare minimum for it. [Atom has to feel compassion for _every single being on the universe,_ which makes him more badass than Batman fans could ever dream of being].
So, if Wonder Woman is the one chozen by the Entity of Love, why, _why_ are we not internalizing it and give her some of the aspects that we've tried time and time again with Superman? You know, besides her being ignored by the movies for a pretty long time.
I'm not saying that anybody should be shorthanded/coded as Christ, but, you know... Superman is hope. Batman is duty. Wonder Woman is love.
[And Atom is compassion, fight me].
That's a dope deep cut from the comics. Thanks for sharing!
@@ThoughtWord It's even better when you realize tha, even while fighting hordes of corrupted reanimated carcasses that will try to kill her, Wonder Woman still cares deeply enough to do what's right! Man, I wonder time and time again, why are we sleepling on Wonder Woman?
I'm going to disagree on the last point of Superman being only an "action hero" or one of just strength. Throughout the first two films we see a Clark that holds to hope. He does not defeat Zod cause he is a bad guy, but what makes him a bad guy; the destruction of a planet with millions in it. He even tells Zod that Krypton had its chance, let Earth have its too. Superman like Jesus is saving what he love, however in a different way. In counter to Jesus' enemies, Zod is going to everything to kill every human and form Krypton once again, giving Superman no other other option.
In Bvs, he does not give his life up because he is the good guy, but once again, saving what he loves and holding to hope that people will rebuilt, goes one to one with Bruce's final monologue, he gave humanity another chance, a chance to be better and to rebuilt.
Good video, you left many part unanswer and change subject fast. Good overall, hope you continue making videos.
Thanks for bringing you perspective. To be honest, I had to whittle the script for this video down A LOT so it didn't run on forever. As such, there are a few points I wasn't able to explicate as much as I could have. I suppose that's just place where viewers can fill in the blanks a bit for themselves.
That last line was awesome!
Just found your channel and I'm obsessed! Your essays are very insightful, and I'm looking forward to seeing more from you. Keep up the good work!
What would that make Batman then? I kinda wonder...
Also if you’re interested in religious allegories, Frank Miller’s later stuff in Daredevil touches upon the idea of rebirth and how Matt Murdock’s Catholicism comes into play. He basically loses his identity and has to find himself again.
This is before Miller went crazy too so it’s not heavy handed or uh...questionable.
Good question. I think it's trickier to cast Batman in an allegorical light. I definitely prefer him to Superman, probably for the same reason a lot people do---he's just a man facing impossible challenges and impossible beings without fear (just writing that sentence makes me think I need to take up your Daredevil reading suggestion!).
Thought & Word I guess the closest thing you could compare Batman to is David from the David and Goliath story. Cause of both facing impossible odds.
Thought & Word also yeah Daredevil is probably even more relatable (sans the super abilities) than Batman. He’s not rich for one thing and the other thing is that he’s in the heart of a corrupt neighborhood in New York. Fighting crime as both the lawyer, Matthew Murdock and the vigilante, Daredevil. He’s got super abilities but they’re really heightened senses rather than unrealistic super powers; they could actually viably be a real thing cause blind people do have their senses heightened.
@@nexus7034 I really liked the Daredevil Netflix series and how they approached Murdock's Catholicism (especially in the 3rd season), but admittedly I've never picked up a Daredevil comic book. Clearly doing so is overdue!
What actually separates Jesus from every mythical figure ancient or modern he gets compared to is that His Resurrection is not just a reprieve to continue His story, but heralds the inevitable Death of Death itself, aka The Gospel.
It is absolutely possible for a Superhero story to be a satisfying action/adventure romp while still sending the message that you truly defeat Evil with Love. It's what the Magical Girl Genre does all the time, it's Wonder Woman was originally about, and it's what many of the best Superman stories do.
You should watch the Devotional Criticism video essay on Man of Steel.
It's certainly not impossible for superhero stories to communicate the message of nonviolent love defeating evil, but I would say that it isn't the norm by any stretch.
@@ThoughtWord It is in certain genres of Anime.
And Jesus did lay the Smack down in The Temple.
@@Kuudere-Kun There was definitely some righteous anger from Jesus there! But he turned over tables and made a whip to drive out animals. It's never stated or implied, though, that he actually harmed anyone, much less that he intended to.
@@ThoughtWord Jesus doesn't do anything He doesn't intend to.
This is so good please post more if take once a month
I agree with a lot of this, but to your point at the end: I don't think Superman is supposed to actually BE Jesus.. but that his story is supposed to be a reflection of Jesus'. Obviously it can't be beat for beat, but a scifi story about an otherworldly hero, who strives to do what is right and help people at whatever cost, is a great story to have mirror the journey of the one who gives us the TRUE ideal to strive toward.
In that, I think it's beautiful. Superman is nothing but a Christian with unlimited power, who uses it to help his neighbors and show the world that one's great abilities should always be used for good.
(Sidenote: One could argue that the only enemies that Superman kills are aliens with supernatural abilities that threaten mankind, otherwise why hasn't he killed Lex? Therefore, perhaps these evil otherworldly beings could represent demons... Just a thought).
Yea,Superman is more of a Moses figure
Thank you very much for the video
Wow! That was excellent!
Superman is clearly a Moses figure
In the minds of Siegel and Shuster almost definitely. It's fascinating, though, how malleable characters like Superman become. They are many things to many people.
He's definitely a Moses figure, and I would argue that because Christianity came out of Judaism (I would also say it was of a natural way), so to does Jesus transform from a Jewish figure to a Christian one. After all, Superman is the Son (Jesus), Jor-El the Father (God), and Jor-El's consciousness represents the Holy Ghost as a guiding presence. They're a clear trinity just like in the Bible.
Funny thing is.. Schuster attended the Donner Superman premiere ...So he obviously did mind the Jesus allegory or thought it went against the character's narrative
4:30 How is that an advice? To me, it looks like someone who is struggling to answer a question.
yesss so excited to watch
At around 4:00, just FYI, "Immaculate Conception" refers to the Catholic dogma of the virgin Mary's conception, not Jesus'.
Touche. Should've done a bit more brushing up on Catholic terminology. I reckon it's a common enough mistake, conflating immaculate conception and virgin birth. In truth, I think it's a bit silly to build so many theological fences around Mary with unnecessary doctrine. It's ok for her to just be normal girl with a good heart. That's my take, anyway.
I feel that you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the character. He is the ultimate embodiment oh hope... Well not in Snyder's films, but that's 2hat he is supposed to be.
Everyone here is you in a past or future life ♾
Superman saves Lois Lane but JESUS CHRIST saved all the people the whole world 🌍! Blessings and Hugs 💖💕💕💕💕💕💕💕💕💕💕💕💕💕💕💕💕💕💕💕💕💕💕💕💕💕💕💕💕!
If Superman is the allegory of Jesus then would that make Batman the devil??
Dark Shadows Batman would be Saul of Tarsus who becomes the apostle Paul after persecuting early Christians but sees the error of his ways when the scales fall from his eyes on the road to Damascus after hearing the voice of Jesus. Just like Batman who went from enemy to ally of Superman when he realized he was about to kill Martha's son in BVS
No, Batman represent the archetypal man. The one that nah faces his demons while constantly being tested by his chaotic surroundings.
Hi...Snyder fan here...You had me totally into it, for 4 min and 40 sec into...Very thoughtful person...Then you killed it with your 1st hint of Man of Steel bashing...The same bashing that comes from unobservant Snyder haters..Clearly you are smart, and that makes it worse because it's obvious you are willful and deliberately misrepresenting.
He didn't get bad advice from his parents..He got wise cautious advice and guidance...You pulled the same deceptive trick that others do when playing that clip, you cut it off right after he says "maybe". Pa Kent saying maybe was essentially him saying "I don't know"... This is an extraordinary situation with many heavy things to consider...This Clark had an inborn morality but being young, his attitude was still vulnerable and his view on humanity would have been severely tainted if he had to go through the experience of the Government attempting to remove him from all he knows and loves. That's a great risk that needs to be weighed given how powerful he is and will become ... Directly after the "maybe" comment, Pa Kent goes on to reinforce this risk, then proceeds educate and guide Clark on how to make choices. An ability that's very important..."All these changes you are going through one day you are going to think of them as a blessing"
I think "Table settings" are in every movie...Most people call it story building. The Justice League we got didn't deliver anything in regards to what Snyder was planning for Superman.
Critics are hacks....WB chopped up the story in BVS and in response to the backlash they caused themselves, they ruined JL. They rushed it out with out delay because they wanted to make quota to quality for bonuses before the big merger... JL was reduced to an hour and 48 mins of actual movie..That's even less than the solo movies... They should have left Snyder's vision in tact, it would have done better at the box office..A cohesive vision that some may not like is far better than giving the public a butchered product for their money but it ended up being the first flop of the DCEU. The general audience liked Man of Steel and even BVS...
*"What is left for the character when the source material for the foundational allegory is exhausted? when every egg is placed in the Jesus allegory basket. Where do you go after resurrection?"*
What happened to Jesus after his resurrection?..He rose again and millions of Christians to this very day still claim that Jesus is actively saving them ..even helping them with in their physical existence ...
*"Superman, both by his nature and the nature of the mediums in which he exists can't go to this place narratively. He has to live on with us physically"*
Superman's nature has always involved religious symbolism and allegory ..The first appearance of Christian symbolism in Superman's lore is in Action Comics #1 page 4....
scontent.fagc1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/66522966_2158589414240170_5163935571931824128_n.jpg?_nc_cat=111&_nc_ohc=5YQjS4B0sDkAQkmos02TkfpoFPi-Wsk5UOR4zazmABRebwPwgBu7NwgnQ&_nc_ht=scontent.fagc1-2.fna&oh=9972565b6845673058d07067aa7244c4&oe=5E695C71
Donner's Superman had Christian allegory and it didn't limit his narrative ...Superman has survived 80 years having this allegory (and the Moses allegory)to one degree or another...The very name of God is in his Krypton name Kal-El..."El" is a name for God
Jor-El = God the father....Kal -El God the son ... I'll even go as far as to say that the A.I. consciousness of Jor-El in the fortress of Solitude in both MOS and Donner's version fits perfectly as representing the Holy Spirit , a cinematic holy trinity in both movie versions.
Snyder's DCEU was meant to be a short contained universe, not an ongoing one like Marvel..The Jesus allegory wasn't the only thing Snyder used for his narravtive, the biggest influence on Snyder's Superman and DCEU was the philosophy of Joseph Campbell and his heroes Journey ..Snyder is obsessed with Campbell's philosophy ..all of that and the comic history was applied to Snyder's Superman..Even the obscure elements in the corners of Superman's history like Philip Wylie...
Also, Eugenics was the big science at the time of Superman's creation and what the Nazi's were doing with eugenics was terrible..and Seigel advocated against eugenics, his Superman was created to bring hope to the oppressed people... And what was Man of Steel about?--->Eugenics ... The skulls that Superman was sinking in during the induced dream sequence was holocaust symbolism..Humanity was to be replaced with the superiors race of the Krytonians...Man of Steel was a love letter to Superman's creators and their time period.
Snyder's purpose for the Jesus allegory was only to use it as an element , he wasn't aiming for it to be taken to any logical conclusion... There were a composite of elements used with his Superman...Snyder is all about adding mythological weight to these characters... He did the same for Wonder Woman by framing her as the divine feminine, the star on her head dress (tiara) is the star of Ishtar ... He put Joseph Campbell's goddess quote on her sword and a Campbell quote in Kryptonian language scripted on Superman's "S"..... You're whole video is in severe error, especially the end part simply because you are leaving out the big picture. You are making it out like Snyder's Superman was only to be a Jesus allegory and that's all, and that is demonstrablely wrong. All Star Superman was one of many influences on Snyder's Superman...The term "Elseworlds" is funny...We have had 80 years of diverse versions, but now we have to call them "Elseworlds" ...By those standards, the Superman under his very creators would be considered "Elseworlds" given how harsh he was... Live action by nature is Elseworld ...The Donner Superman had differences from canon...
There was never any narrative road block with this Superman..Henry Cavill honestly said that Man of Steel was a great start ..and he still wants to do Superman . and his Superman would never break from what's established ...
The statement behind Snyder's version wasn't to say Jesus was the same as Superman...
Anyone who says Superman saves the world through punches and heat vision doesn't get the character...He saves the world through bringing hope..That's the very words of his creators....
Chris Reeve said that it's not the cartoony Superman people connect with, it's Superman's ability to overcome obstacles and understand difficulty and turn your back on it... That's a bit more than punching, and that's what Snyder's version did...Snyder's Superman died to fulfill Jor-El's words from man of steel...about testing his limits and learning what it was to be human.. Superman experiencing his own mortality in BVS was the final nail in learning the human experience... After his resurrection he can go forward knowing the pain of the people he saves, and the risk they face, the Jesus allegory was just one of the many parts along the way.
Joseph Campbell on the hero's self sacrifice :
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This is what's scripted on Superman's "S" ...scontent.fagc1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/44671270_1780865135345935_1007430213304320000_n.jpg?_nc_cat=104&_nc_ohc=z-WyDTYgdRMAQlw8xeJJcXSPjJGUXBPoKXEMMS6ZQEiAeW2kSNrT3jVzw&_nc_ht=scontent.fagc1-2.fna&oh=bc254123aa632fec50b5ac221f7fa287&oe=5E69CDD9
That's not a bible verse BTW.
Here's a quick illustration of Snyder's planned Superman's Journey :
scontent.fagc1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/47476927_1833609506738164_4269539290016382976_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&_nc_ohc=w5RJhkWV0dAAQlBAodO8-0mz99K-hLMQj2dcHBoYGP6ar7FCzSRbKtqIA&_nc_ht=scontent.fagc1-1.fna&oh=42632498a42ad049d1854751032389d0&oe=5E751B54
The necessary violent end to Zod in the end of Man of Steel contradicts your accusation toward Snyder...his vid was a great disappointment to witness...
Hey, there. Firstly, I appreciate your thoughtful and thorough response (definitely takes the cake as the longest comment I've received on any video!). You make a number of valid points throughout and defend them well. I'll grant that some of my own points are a bit overgeneralized. Actually, the original script for this video was almost twice as long as the final draft. I had to make some hard cuts and edits to get it down to reasonable length that wouldn't make for exceedingly long video. Some nuance is always lost when those kind of decisions are made.
For what it's worth, I'm not a Snyder hater, and I definitely don't hold him solely responsible for a problematic conflation of Jesus and Superman which is more attributable to American culture at large (a point I still stand by). The reason I highlight Snyder is simply that his take on the Superman character has been the most visible and widespread in recent years, thus the most ripe for critique.
I have little doubt that Snyder's vision for Justice League would be far more interesting than the one we got from Warner Bros and Whedon. I'm all about #ReleaseTheSnyderCut! If it ever does get released, I can definitely see myself making a followup video, in which case, I'd love to dialogue some more.
I suppose the big idea of the video, stated most succinctly, is that no human creation, however noble, can ever match the divine. Thanks again for your feedback! Take care.
@@ThoughtWord Well that's nice of you.
What we call "The Divine" is a human creation....Jesus is mythology ..I'm an Atheist lol ...Greek..Roman gods, islam , Jesus/Christianity all myth and can be added to characters like Superman and Wonder Woman..Because DC characters are usually thought of as God like types ripe for religious symbology to be added. Actually , the God of the bible is a treacherous, jealous, needy , vengeful, immoral , child killing thug...(And I don't say that to be rude,,it's just true). The character of Superman doesn't match that divine..he surpasses it greatly with ease. Although, I will admit, that the Jesus figure is much nicer than his mythical father.
@@dignerds Hey, man. No harm, no foul. I don't take it personally (unlike, if we're honest, way too many people do). I suppose it's pretty obvious I'm a Christian seeing things through that worldview. And, actually, I agree with you about the Old Testament portrayal of God. It is often, though not always, objectively horrifying. But, (and I don't want to get excessively theological here) I think that presentation in the Bible had more to do with the Israelites' incomplete perception and understanding of God's true character which was often mistakenly misinterpreted or negatively influenced by the often violent pagan cultures and religions around them. That's why if you want to know what God is really like, look no further than Jesus. He's the real deal.
There are a lot of folks out there who articulate this train of thought way better than I can. Greg Boyd comes to mind. He wrote a book a couple of years ago called "The Crucifixion of the Warrior God" that goes super deep on this topic ("Cross Vision" is a condensed volume on the same subject).
@@ThoughtWord that john wonder person took it very personal...lol
@@ThoughtWord Ya..Many Christians say that about God in the old testament ... If we were disregard the old testament we need to throw out the concept of original sin, the 10 commandments ...Etc. If humans got it wrong in the old testament then it could be wrong in the new testament ..God wasn't much better there either. My grandmother put it simple.. If I bake you a cake and I put all the yummy ingredients in--flour-- sugar--eggs--flavoring-- but I then put just a tiny spoon of cyanide poison in it.. You couldn't trust any of that cake because of that one thing . Jesus approved of the old testament and the immoral laws... So that's not going to fly...Its a myth like all the others .. I was a Christian for 3 years and studied well... I can find an intellectual Muslim that writes books and they will have all bases covered.
If this Christain God of love was real... Then he would except me into heaven regardless if I believed in him or not depending on the intention of my heart.
Any God That's worthy of worship wouldn't ask for it .
Wtf? How is his mom comparable to virgin mary
Always easier to deny a statement than making one, try to appreciate people's thoughts more mate:)
Always easier to deny a statement than making one, try to appreciate people's thoughts more mate:)
@@chenkai3275 right back at u
@@dustinchen look I'm not intended to make poorly elaborated arguments, but if you consider the krypton gene pool to Mary instead of Martha or Lara, that might help you make much clearer senses, it's the symbolic meaning of unique case of birth rather than shallow definition of "virgin", again I am not an expert in this whatsoever but it's movie theologies should be welcomed than frowned upon
It's all allegory and symbolism. Not a direct one-to-one comparison. The underlying idea is that, like Jesus's birth from Mary, Kal-El's birth in the film was also "unique."
I believe they are the same but the only difference is superman is a fictional character and Jesus Christ is real and alive sitting at the right hand of his father