Early Automatic Pistol Cartridges - What, When & Why?
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- čas přidán 25. 06. 2024
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In discussion with a friend recently, the topic of early automatic pistol cartridges came up. Specifically, looking at the context of which cartridges were actually available at which times, and how this might provide helpful context for understanding why particular cartridges were adopted (or commercially successful) or were not.
I decided to see if I could put together a useful video on the subject, and this is the result. We will look at the cartridges available prior to 1900, the ones developed or introduced between 1900 and 1904, and then a few followups which appeared between 1905 and 1910.
Some cartridges became popular because of their ballistic characteristics - like the 7.63mm Mauser and the C96 "Broomhandle" - while others became popular because of the handgun much more than the cartridge itself - like the Browning 1900 and the .32ACP / 7.65mm Browning.
Complete videos on some of the guns mentioned here:
C93 Borchardt: • C93 Borchardt: the Fir...
Colt 1900 Sight Safety: • Colt/Browning Sight Sa...
Development of the Colt from 1900 to 1911: • Development of the Mod...
Webley 1904: • Webley Model 1904
Colt 1908 (Shanghai Police model): • Shanghai Municipal Pol...
Bergmann No.3: • Bergmann 1896 / No.3 P...
Mannlicher 1905 in Slow Motion: • Slow Motion: Steyr-Man...
18:39
"The 9mm Bergman was a pretty legitimate cartridge. 135 grains at 10,500 feet per second."
Put me down for ten, thanks.
Used by snipers around the globe
Yeah. A pistol firing at a third the velocity to escape earth’s atmosphere and enter space.
10,050 fps is about 3 km a second. Escape velocity is about 11 km a second.
You've heard of the anti tank gun, now meet the anti tank pistol
Bergman Railgun
I wasn’t looking at my monitor when I was listening to this part and imagined some sort of hand rail gun was about to be on my screen
Ian is the only CZcamsr that can keep you fixed to your seat with a 30 minutes long Power Point.
Try C&Rsenal. Longer lecture, much less PowerPoint!
There’s a reason people literally refer to him as Jesus lol
Gun jesus is capable of much greater miracles....
Power Point Blank
@@kaneo1 I love C&Rsenal. Sorry I'm replying one year too late, lol, it seems YT notifications "work" pretty well.
Am I the only one that thinks these early handguns were some of the coolest looking firearms ever?
Like older cars. Everything was different and unique. Then people figured out what was most effective, and everyone did that.
That Bergmann No.3 oh baby seems so sleek and jet fighter-y to me. Blade runner ish
They provide Hollywood with some exotic patterns for movie props and steam punks luv em.
No
They were
Gotta give it to the Mauser C96, damn thing got turned into an SMG in Spain and a .45 ACP in China.
So, it had quite an interesting history.
The Inglis High-Power, made for China during the war was another interesting sidearm. They came with a shoulder stock and a groove in the grip with which to attach it. I think these were probably very fine firearms.
I feel like something similar with a magazine in front of the grip would be cool in shit like .44 where you can't really hold it if the mag is in the grip
@@joelspringman7748they’re usually not *great* guns for their time. The reason so many stocked pistols were made for the Chinese market was to dodge export bans on rifles during the warlord era.
Even more interesting is the fact that since there was no centralized Chinese currency, the main currency used by most warlords was Mexican pesos.
I love how through all of this its just Browning and Luger trading blows for military contracts with everyone else trying their best.
Broom handled Mauser has to be the best, even Han solo chose a laser version.
Chris Spencer actually the "laser guns fired plasma apparently"
I'd choose the laser/blaster version of the 1911 OR a CZ75B, but just because I have big hands, and the Luger doesn't QUITE feel substantial enough in the grip. Do I poo-poo the Luger? oh HELL NO!!! The Luger p'08 BEGAN the ergonomics revolution, and it is SO EASY to point and click that it's BEYOND its time by generational lightyears...
That said, I DEEPLY miss my CZ75B. "Ceska" (yes, I name my pistols) was a tack-driver. SWEET 9mm that she was, that pistol could put all twelve rounds in a group no bigger than 1/2" at 13m/45ft. I MISS "Ceska"...
I found a set of 3 parts gun BOLO broom-handle's in Shotgun News years ago for like 40 bucks. They were indeed in horrid shape, but I did manage to get one working gun out of the bunch. The bore was so shot out that I am sure it would never have been very accurate unless it were lined and re chambered, but it was a working model. I polished her up as best as I could and hot blued her on my next gun bluing run (I was a working gunsmith at the time), then took her to a gun show along with the other 2 parts guns which I also blued but didn't put a lot of labor in polishing as they looked as though they lived in a rice patty for a few years. The complete gun went for 200 bucks, the parts guns for 50 each so I made out OK considering my initial cost and the labor I put into them. I never dared to fire the complete gun although I did have a box of surplus ammo from an order that I had received for a fellow who needed something to feed his bring home Communist China Tokarov back then you couldn't get the right load but feeding them on old 30 Mauser seemed to work OK, he was pleased as punch as he had been trying to feed her on 30 Luger which was, of course not a great idea. He showed me the empty cases, they looked almost like 9mm Luger after firing.
@@stitch626aloha I am still angry at myself for selling my Luger. Years ago about 1979 if I recall properly, I was sitting in the barber chair when a fellow walked into the Barber Shop/Gunshop combo with a Luger complete with holster, extra mag and cleaning rod. Now I don't see well without my glasses and they were laying on the barber's counter, but I did recognize the shape of the item. I purchased it without even taking it out of the holster to look at it, on the spot. She turned out to be a real beauty, just a plain Army model but in like new condition, even the checkering on the grips was undamaged. I took her out to the police range that very day and tried her out, after all what's the use in having a gun if you are not going to fire her? She shot like a dream with the military surplus 9mm that I had, so I grabbed a box of hallow points. Now I never figured she would feed properly since hallow points were not even thought of back when she was made, but she loved them as much as the hardball! Ah but the urge for a bigger better gun lead me to send her to gunshow with my buddy the barber, I wanted a modern 9mm, but he traded it off for a damn Polish Radam I didn't want the Radam, it had RED grips for christ sake! I ended up taking a Engfield sporter in 30-06 and a chief's special Smith in trade and he sold the Radam.
This is great 🤣
Browning invented the .25 ACP because of the difficulty in making a small reliable .22 rimfire automatic.
Spot on. As well as attempting to mimic the ballistics of a 22lr , shot from a rifle or carbine, in a small short-barreled auto. When looked at in that light, I’d deem it “effective”.
It is amazing how long the .25 acp has been popular. In the 1960s, it was still very popular for the foreign made "vest pocket pistols" (a/k/a Saturday Night Specials) that were used by small time hoods as highly concealable weapons. I still have one, and it is a lot of fun. Not for serious everyday carry, but better than nothing when you cannot conceal anything larger. With the 1968 gun control law in the US, these pistols could no longer be imported and this caliber began a steeper decline.
name:simpex
the gun itself: Complex
cartridge:copylex
made my day!
*simplex
The triple x
@@robertfuller2807 NOBODY CARES
Hotel: Trivago
I wonder if in 100 years there will be videos like this using glocks, sigs, fn's and etc.
Johnnie Remington probably. It's amazing to think that what we consider to be state of the art fire arms will be look upon like these pistols 100 years from now.
Yeah, but if the Forgotten Weapons of 2100's appears, I believe the Glock family will not appear, maybe in a 1911's development video like Ian here done, wait, maybe the next Forgotten Weapons could be hosted by Ian the 2nd!
In a 100 years firearms will be banned from civilian knowledge and humanity forever enslaved.
@@ragnarokstravius2074 .45 GAP
Not another glock video
The Borchardt might've been ugly but at least it had a detachable box magazine, took the rest of the world a while to figure that out.
Nukleon Clips are cooler.
And so much more fiddly in a tense situation.
wood1155 In California they are called 30 caliber magazine-clips.
They had a 10-shot C96 where you had to feed it two 5-round stripper clips, instead of just putting in a magazine in a split second.
One ten shot clip, and you didn't have to eject an empty mag first. Just having ten shots in the gun was way ahead of most pistols of the day. There's a reason over 1 million C96s were sold.
I've got a collection of old pistols I inherited from my grandfather, it includes a Browning FN 1900, a Mauser C96 (actually a "Schnellfeuer" Beistegui Hermanos 31), and an old Colt 1911 among several 19th century revolvers. However, the one I like the best for shooting every now and then is the FN 1900. it's just such a fun little gun to shoot on a weekend! Thank you for such an informative video.
Maxim-Silverman, the Victorian space gun!
Bergmann Number 2
Bergmann Number 3
When do we get a video on the Mambo number 5?
A little bit of Borchardt in my life, a little bit of Browning by my side
A little bit of Mauser is all I need
A little bit of Webley is what I see
You guys just aged yourselves. As am I by commenting
My friends.
USMC03-1408 You don't have to be teen at the year of release to know a song, if that's what you meant. And if so, when did it come out? And how old am I? :-D
It is my opinion, that you- Ian, have the best job in the world.
I'm serious. If I could do what you would do, my life would be complete. Good for you man!
I love seeing (and handling!) these early pistols, when people were scratching their heads and trying to figure out exactly how a semi-automatic system should work, how it should look, and even what sort of round should be used. When you pick up these guns, you can almost hear the gears turning in the heads of the designers and that, to me, is just cool!
18:34 135 grains at 10,050 fps - now that IS a pretty legitimate cartridge!
Outerwebs the recoil of that could pop terry cruise into a pink mist, but whatever he was aiming at would be deleted as well.
30,274 ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle. Or about 2.5 times more energy than a .50 BMG out of a Barrett M82.
A E yeah that’s super badass because decent loaded 44mag is like 1200lbs lol
Of course it's legit, it's the first hypersonic weapon!
@@1ohtaf1 when I shoot a bullet, I want it to go nearly two miles in a second.
Great video Ian. If the 9mm Bergmann cartridge is pushing 10,050fps I would gladly carry a Mars today as my defensive handgun. Lol
TheBamidd Something tels me you could only use it once, and the result would be quite counterproductive.
Might as well hand it over to the burglar/murderer. Probably gonna be more effective in self defense that way.
For anyone wondering, that would be a round going a shave under 7000 miles per hour. Liquefied bits of the barrel would be following the round down range. The sonic boom would shatter windows quite a distance away, and the shock cone infront of the round would create a nifty fireball (imagine orbital re-entry) until the round slowed down significantly.
The more I talk about this, the more I want to shoot something like this.
Eks calybur Yes, exactly my point. Makes me think of the Saber handgun from the left behind series. Not trying to get religious here, just the best reference that comes to mind. So much hydrostatic energy transfer that your target turns into a fine mist.
Alright this is how we are going to do it. Scrap the gun powder bullshit, c4 detonates at 26000 fps, so we will use that. We will create a vessel that can withstand the detonation of c4. This acts as the casing, the chamber and barrel will have to be equally strong. The projectile will be a ~175 grain all steel .30 caliber projectile that is fin stabilized. Around the projectile is a polymer casing with a steel base to act as a sabot for the projectile. The barrel will also be 100 meters long.
The 1903 FN/Colt Pocket Hammerless is such an attractive pistol. I would love to see this gun manufactured again.
This is exactly the kind of thing I enjoy! Thanks very much. Trivial nitpick: I think .455 Webley Self-Loading is semi-rimmed, not rimless.
Yes, that is correct.
The c96 Mauser was one of the best guns ever it looked so dam cool
Yea they look cool but they don’t shoot all that great. Very high bore axis. Luger and 1911 shoot way better.
@@craigthescott5074
Ya, I thought they were pretty hard to shoot. But, for their time, they probably would have been very desirable. Mr. Churchill dispatched a few enemies with one, in close combat.
@@joelspringman7748 yea they are very cool especially if you have the shoulder stock. I own whats called a red nine. 9mm but I haven’t found a shoulder stock for it yet.
@@craigthescott5074 The bore axis is no worse than some DA revolvers, and I don't hear much about how they're "harder to shoot". It's all about getting used to your pistol.
@@johnmullholand2044 well a John I can tell you my Red Nine is cool but the 1911 is far superior. The Luger is also a much more ergo designed pistol. The Mauser is cool but not practical even by 1900’s standards.
Certainly easy to see the influence of the 1903 Browning on the Tokarev TT 30/33
@feelings Are Not Arguments pkm ak svt40 svd
@feelings Are Not Arguments the IS-3, rocket mainstages, gun/launcher systems, ERA, nuclear power, etc.
Soviet union kinda sucked but you can't accuse them of not inventing stuff. What they accomplished isn't bad for a country that was feudal 30 years prior
@feelings Are Not Arguments As much as I dislike communism and many of its proponents, I cannot agree with you. Copying and then building and improving upon ideas is how many great things came to be, and is not something exclusive to the Soviet ideology. It is also not exclusively how the Soviets came up with things. A lot of Soviet invention came about just by them wanting to do things differently than the West did.
@@Tunkkis exactly of we weren't able to improve on technologys I doubt we'd have gotten very far a good example is eddison finally making the light bulb mass producable and effective of he wasn't able to improve upon the works of others we wouldn't have modern lighting hell we'd probaly still be cavemen
@feelings Are Not Arguments What country got into space first
And 9x19 Luger is the most popular cartridge today
Brice Graves hell of a legacy, a great example of good science when compared to .45acp. 1/2mass x velocity^2.
Sadly
@@gsfbffxpdhhdf7043 1 man's opinion... Certainly NOT for mass adoption. Only in USA of all 200 countries is it so worshipped.
Though at the time, in John Browning’s world and military examples, the US had just come out of the Spanish-American War, and the Army had switched to the rather anemic .38S&W, which had dismal results on Mora’s in the Philippines, causing Troopers to want their .45 LC 1873 SAA’s back, along with all the shotguns they could get their hands and hacksaws on.
In 9x19, ball was all that was available for many years, we enjoy many great 9mm self defense rounds today, having been uber developed in the last 20 years. Many militaries and civilian law enforcement in other countries used .32ACP or .380 as sidearm calibers. However, Browning and FN turned around and developed the Hi-Power shortly after that, but JMB passed away before it was ready for market. He built it around the 9x19, so obviously he saw great potential in it.
There are many, many reports of assailants/criminals taking multiple 9x19 hits, staying on their feet and remaining a threat until bleeding out. I did jury duty in a murder trial once where that was the case.
With .45’s, not so many reports of threats being shot with a 185-230 grain slug and uttering “That SOB just shot me! I’m going to kick his ass!” and then doing it. Some, but not many. Usually, with a .45, it’s kinda like dropping a small block Chevy engine on their head. Usually.....
Sic vis pacem, para bellum...
I want this to be continued just so I can learn about new old pistols. I love the early 1900 semi automatic pistols. they were so unique.
Thanks again Gun Jesus, as always your videos are both educational and enjoyable to watch.
now you need to cover the .22 rimfire development.
Invented in 1845, by Louis-Nicolas Flobert.
After seeing the Frommer pistol I can see why they went into the travel guide business.
Different Frommer, dude. Arthur Frommer of Frommer's travel guide fame, wasn't even born when the Frommer pistol came out. The Frommer pistol came out in 1901, whilst Arthur Frommer, the founder of Frommer's travel guides was born in 1929. Not. The. Same. Company.
The house of Romanov doesn't get sarcasm I see. I was joking your majesty.
Sarcasm doesn't show itself well in written word. There is no tone of voice to give it away.
This is very true. I will try and make any attempt at sarcasm more evident in the future.
It's not easy, that's for sure. I try to be sarcastic in comments and fail on a regular basis, myself.
.45 ACP started as a 200-grain bullet at just over 1,000 FPS, but the Army wanted a heavier bullet and so Browning converted his cartridge to shoot a 230-grain bullet at 850 FPS, at least according to Col. Hatcher.
METRIC SYSTEM!!!
Thank you soo much, Ian.
Not really, only the caliber is in metric, everything else is Imperial. 😛
@@TruthNerds Joules, grams, m/s
That's all metric
@@grga5891 You're right, the text shown to the right of each gun photo also shows metric/SI, which is indeed awesome (for a non-US person like me).
Remember imperial units are defined by metric system, by example: 1 inch is 25,4 mm by its own defenition.
So imperial units are metric why imperial is still around is curious.
@@beeldpuntXVI This makes no sense. The Imperial units predate the metric system. The antiquated, convoluted, and inefficient Imperial system is still around largely because a lot of Americans (boomers, mostly) were too stupid to switch to the metric system back in the 1970s when they tried implementing it... although even the British, who invented the silly Imperial system, have largely abandoned it.
If the people who created a measurement system have more or less phased it out, what does that say about the system? The argument that Imperial units are better for navigation (due to the way that map grids were laid out) is silly--we can readily create a new grid system. Knots (nautical miles per hour) is an inane measurement of speed since no one measures distance in nautical miles anymore, and 1 nautical mile > 1 land mile. By contrast, if you are going at 750 kph, and your destination is 750 km away as the crow flies, you can be certain to be over the destination in an hour (assuming constant speed and no drifting off course).
And when it comes to ballistics, compare the formulae for calculating muzzle energy in joules versus calculating it in ft-lbs. The latter is a convoluted nightmare when compared to KE = 0.5* MV^2. Add that we _only_ measure bullets in grains (and nothing else), and you'll really start hating the Imperial system as much as I do.
I keep hoping that some day, the U.S. will adopt the metric system and let the Imperial system gather dust along with the use of cubits and fathoms.
If anything we need to respect Browning for being an absolute machine in churning these things out and other guns at the same time.
Can you do a video on the “best” of each category of small arm in WW2. The best rifle, pistol, smg, etc. I’d enjoy seeing your opinion on what makes a “good” weapon and what set certain weapons apart during the last full scale war of history
Actually your best video to date. Bringing all these cartridges and their pistols into perspective really brings together many of your previous videos together in a bigger hamony. Thank you!
Thanks Ian, informative and interesting as always.
Could listen to you all day.
What a fantastic video Ian. Love seeing all these early semi-auto pistols / calibers in one place. :)
It's just not the same when you can't see Ian.
This is definitely one of the more interesting videos I have seen on CZcams in awhile. Excellently done and very informative.
I watch every single video, ever single day even if the weapon doesn't appeal to me. I have to say this is my favorite video you've ever done. I wish you did more like this.
Frommer 1901 looks like the design was aesthetically inspired by the goblin shark
Seriously Smashing Sharkdom!
Starting ~ @15:00 are those cobwebs on the Frommer 1901's TRIGGER?
I dont see them on "Sho'Gun Jesus" review here: czcams.com/video/p-CXrytOS0E/video.html
It is by far one of the ugliest pistols ever designed.
I just love the early Frommer pistols - much more for their design quirks than for their usefulness (Most freaking underpowered, positively dinky cartridges!) It's what's under the hood that makes me smile. Ian has done a couple excellent videos on them, and that's where my interest began. All those spring detents! They are in no means practical for any military use, complicated! I will say that I wish that there was a good ammo source for them, but I guess if you've got a taste for the exotic - PAPRIKA CHICKEN, BABY! you're just gonna have to pay for the privilege!
I have a piece on a Frommer 1901 coming in a couple weeks, FYI... :)
Forgotten Weapons @Ian, i noticed that the adopted cartridge of the Colt/Browning 1900 in .38 Automatic was pretty comparable to a 9mm Parabellum.
I also heard you say that this cartridge would become or was the 38ACP.
Is this LOAD (138gr @ 1050 fps = 318ftlb of energy) still in existence today?
Or was it only meant to be used on that large frame 1900?
That load would not be such a bad load for our modern day pocket .38's :)
I think you are combining the .38 ACP and .380 ACP - they are different cartridges. The .38 ACP became the .38 Super, and it used in locked breech pistols. The .380ACP is what we today call the three-eighty, used in compact, often blowback, deigns. They are not interchangeable at all; they have substantially different case lengths.
Forgotten Weapons you are correct Ian.
That was my mistake.
Thanks for clarifying that for me 👍
Rick Autr
I like the direction you're going here. This gives everything more context. Seeing just one gun and going into detail like you normally do is great but it's nice to see how they relate to each other and how they influenced other guns of the era. Great work!
Great work Ian! I love your long format videos on topics like these. I really liked the videos of those workshops you did ages ago and I was hoping you'd upload more things like them. Thanks!
It could have been a 3 hours long lecture and I would have watched it without pausing.
There is a photograph from 1898 taken of the Lawton, Indian Territory (later to be Oklahoma) showing the Sheriff's Department with their weapons stacked up in front of them, showing how much firepower they wielded. On the very top of the stack is a C96 Mauser with its holster. A unique pistol to have been used in what was still the Wild West.
Marty Malone the end of the west,by no means is that considered the wild west
@@jonmeray713 The wild west ended in 1912.
@@supremecaffeine2633 The time period generally referred to as "The Wild West" begun right after the end of the Civil War (1865) and ended around 1895. One could say that it ended in 1900, in 1916, in1920, or even that it never did, but most sources would agree the period lasted thirty years; from '65 to '95.
"Although the “Wild West” is a time period generally defined from 1865 to 1895, there are many events that shaped the American West as a region from ancient times up to 1916".
- Legends of America
"The second was the call of Manifest Destiny, the idea that American westward expansion was an American right and something that was guaranteed to happen. While the settling of the American West began in earnest in the 1840s, the most famous period in the region's history, the Wild West, began in 1865 after the American Civil War (the war fought between the Northern and Southern United States between 1861 and 1865) and ended in 1895".
- study.com/academy/lesson/the-american-west-history-settlement.html
Other sources:
www.thevintagenews.com/2017/12/31/wild-west-era-2/
www.american-historama.org/1881-1913-maturation-era/wild-west.htm
www.quora.com/When-did-the-wild-west-era-end
Answer #1 - The US Census officially declared the end of a deliniated " Frontier " in 1890 .
Answer #2 - In rural areas and small towns away from big cities , not much changed right away .
You still rode to town on a horse . You still hauled "stuff" in horse drawn wagons . You still farmed with horses ( Unless you were big time enough for an expensive Steam Tractor . Unless you were close to a rail line , stage coaches were not uncommon . You still used kerosene lamps and candles .
Things didn't really change much until a couple of years after Model T Fords, and the related light trucks became common . ie in the 1910's .
In the Clint Eastwood/Robert Duvall movie “Joe Kidd”, one of the ‘henchmen’ carried a C96 Mauser equipped with the wooden shoulder stock and that character is seen reloading with 10 round stripper clips. Also prominently shown is a bolt action scoped hunting rifle, that I believe is in a Mauser action. I’d have to re-watch it again to be sure. Now, I realize this was a movie script set in turn of the century southwest America/northwest Mexico, but it is interesting to note the incorporation of the more modern firearms and technology in the storyline. I believe there was one used in “The Wild Bunch” with Robert Holdren.
Well done. This was well done, you made sense, and kept things in order. Thank you for keeping this channel going.
This video covered subjects that have always fascinated me, they were what drew my interest to guns. A long time ago. You covered this in depth and factual and extremely interesting. Thank you
You should do an April Fool's video. All about the Mauser C96... But in the video, refer to it only as the BlasTech Industries DL-44 aka Han Solo's blaster. :D
Dana Jorgensen and suddenly it becomes a Generation Tech video. 😆
Omg this would be amazing!!!!
Dana Jorgensen 😂👍😂
Hello, future here. you gon' be disappoint.
I love watching your videos. As a Canadian your videos are very informative.
Echo Rabbit I approve this message
You're proud because you have something? That's an interesting approach to life.
PS. I'm a gun enthusiast too.
Thank you very much, one of the things that i always felt that missed in your movies was some more information on the sometimes completely unknown cartridges of the rare weapons you show.
One of my favorite videos that you've produced. Thanks.
Hey there ! Love your work sir !
This was such a great video! I love oddball cartridges (I carry a 32 magnum) and the history here.
Sam Sung - fired out of what?? A witch's hat?
Tamlan Dipper a revolver... hes probably talking about .32 H&R magnum
grottski - Thanks. Any idea why seems popular in revolvers not automatics?
Tamlan Dipper the short answer is because it's easier to simply just lengthen a cylinder and that generally magnum revolvers can accommodate the weak cartridges due to them headspacing on the rim. Autos tend to headspace on the case mouth.
However, there are Magnum like loads for auto, their naming convention is just different most of the time. 10mm is technically a "magnumized" .40 S&W (actually 10mm came first, but the FBI wanted an easier shooting round so they loaded 10mm down). Another example is .45 super and the even more powerful 460 Rowland, both of which can be considered to be "magnum .45 acp." And oddly enough, guns chambered for them (or most of the time converted to them) can fire .45 acp as well. These are the exception rather than the rule. There are other "magnumized" auto pistol cartridges but these are the 2 most prevalent examples.
Tamlan Dipper oh yeah and another funny fact is .32 H&R mag is considered a weak round by today's standard. We now have .327 Federal Mag which is damn near .357 magnum power with a .32 caliber round. Really neat cartridge. And it can fire all of the other .32s as well.
Way after the guns I'm researching but the video still got me hooked aha. Very informative and straightforward, well versed and researched, thanks!
I am glad that the .455 Webley was mentioned, as the Webley-Fosberry Automatic Revolver was certainly a semiautomatic pistol, and came to the market in 1901.
My grandpa escaped capture twice during WW2 thanks to his Baby Browning automatic. He said It fit in his helmet, and they never checked the helmet.
You're a f*ing liar
I doubt extremely they would not check his helmet, much less keep it, if you capture someone first thing you do his strip him of all equipment including body armor/helmet.
@@rafaelsousa5 it's a who's dick is bigger contest
The bull*hit is strong with this one.
My grandpa found Hitler's body
Will you make another video about the new calibers (10mm, 40 S&W, .375 SIG,...)?
Great video, Ian. Really interesting just to see the variation in the overall designs of early automatic pistols in comparison to the relative uniformity today.
I really enjoyed this style of video, very informative, and fun to watch. Please do more videos of this nature. In my opinion you are the only one I can watch who presents this history without becoming boring. Keep up the awesome work
That bergmann Mars sounds legit, 10050fps is nothing to sneeze at
I want a bergmann simplex, it's such a neat looking little pistol
Yeah that I’ve caught my eye too gorgeous gun
I want a Nagant model 1895.
This video was excellent! I learned quite a bit. I would love to see a continuation of this series!
god what a scholar. so calming. it's been one of those days, this relaxes.
Correct me if I'm wrong (you are the expert here, and I'm merely going by what I've heard/read many years ago) But the 25auto came into existence because they (I assume browning) wanted to make a super small pocket pistol, but wanted a more reliable center fire cartridge over the less reliable rim-fire 22 caliber. And the 25 caliber was the smallest design that he could put a primer pocket in.
I had a grandfather that was crazy about the 25 auto cartridge (for use to dispatch undesirable pests around the farm, and also for hunting small game like rabbits) So much so that he actually had a rifle barrel made for him that would fire the 25 auto. the results he claimed were phenomenal! every bit as effective as a 22 rifle (he only used iron sights, never seen the man look through a scope on any rifle.) I always thought he was a bit odd for it. But I can't discredit his beliefs to much. since I have his little Beretta 25auto from the mid 1900's, and when compared to a 22 from the same size gun the 25 auto outperforms hands down! still not a "man stopper" by today's standards. it'll still poke holes in living tissue! I mostly use it on raccoons and opossums today.
This is a bit of an oversimlification - several earlier and smaller rounds existed, like the 5mm Bergmann and 5mm Clement, which were both centerfire. Later, Franz Pfannl would develop a couple centerfire rounds that are substantially smaller than .25 ACP (the 2mm, 3mm, and 4.25mm Kolibri). The .25ACP is about as small as you could get and still use the modern standard small pistol primer, though.
The times when you could carry a pistol in Europe withouth going straight to jail.
And crime was vastly higher.
@@AgentTasmania No, not really.
In Czech Republic we still can lol)
The good old days!
We could sure do with some shot up schools - feels so unsafe without guns here
Please do more of these. This was a great watch
I love the fact that you included the metric/SI units
you gotta give it to Bergmann
he tried
Mike B hey, he still made an adequate pistol, which is more than most of us can even accomplish
Regarding the .380-9mm "family" of cartridges. While stationed in what was then West Germany during the mid 1980s, I had the occasion to handle and fire a (modern) semi-auto pistol that had, in a past life, been a standard issue Police weapon. However, it was in many ways a "hot" .380 that encroached on 9mm velocities largely because of a slightly longer case that allowed a larger powder capacity than the standard .380ACP case. I think the pistol was manufactured by Walter and as I recall, it appeared to be an up scaled PP by about a third in terms of frame size. The pistol would chamber, grudgingly, .380ACP ball ammo from the magazine but NOT 9mm at all. The .380 ball ammo, when it fed properly from the magazine, was wildly inaccurate at anything much beyond double arms length, but when fed a steady diet of the "good stuff" it was a tack driver out to about 45+/- yards. I don't recall what my German Army opposite number called the round but "Largo" always rings a faint bell with me when German pistols and their cartridges come up in a conversation or in a video such as this one. One thing I do recall is that my German friend told me the round was "very old" and dated back to the early 20th century and had been adopted in several pistols used by both the military and Police since the end of WWII and the reconstruction of German small arms plants. I would be very interested to know just what the round I've referred to above was actually called and when it first saw the light of day/use, in what pistol and who came up with it (the round) and what pistol it was originally chambered for/in. Thanks for yet another excellent video on firearms that I've either seen on display but lacked any substantial knowledge of or have seen photos of but again, due to only passing mention and limited detail, knew very little about. Take care and keep up the great work you do.
Are you sure it wasn't a mak? 9x18 makarov is pretty much exactly what you described, dead center between .380 and 9x19 parabellum.
West Germany 1980's, sounds like 9mm Ultra/Police.
FD Mackey yeah sounds like maybe a PM Makarov
I believe you are describing an Astra pistol. nothing you are describing rings as Walther to me
No not a Mak, LycanEnforcer. The pistol was all German (markings, etc.) as well as superb quality and was even a little larger than the Mak in terms of frame size. The pistol I handled and fired had been recently replaced in German Police service, in Bavaria, by an H&K. At that time, the mid 1980s, it was not uncommon to see Officers in different cities or states armed with H&Ks or Walters of various models and vintages but I had always assumed that they were all chambered in 9mm (Luger). My German counterpart invited me to a range in central Bavaria where we fired several pistols that had been replaced by newer production models, mainly H&Ks, in 9mm of course. The .380ACP would feed, most of the time, from the magazine but due to the anemic (compared to this mystery cartridge...A mystery to me since I can't recall for the life of me it's actual name) loading did not always allow for reliable ejection of spent brass resulting in any number of "stove pipe" jams. As soon as we switched to the "good stuff" the pistol never again suffered a jam or failure to feed or eject and was far and away more accurate than it had been with the "standard" .380 ball we had tried in it to start with. If you placed a typical .380 ball round, this mystery "hot" .380, and a standard 9mm round side by side the case length of the "mystery round" would be noticeably longer than the that of the .380 but almost exactly the same length shorter when compared to the 9mm brass. It was my impression at the time that the "mystery round" was a "for military and police use only" type thing with the police being the major user. I really wish I had purchased that pistol (it was legal for American GIs to do so at the time but required a LOT of paperwork) if for nothing else as an addition to my small collection of old, classic, and even oddball handguns that I had at the time. But alas I did not and it was the video that brought the memory of that "mystery round" and the pistol it was chambered in rushing back to me this morning. .
Knocked it out of the park with reference video. Will eagerly await the rifle part 2. Appreciate this video because I'm sure it took a lot of work to edit all those images.
Fantastic in-depth discussion of a quite obscure topic. Very illuminating.
Video: self-loading cartridge
Me: self-loathing garbage
mmmmmm more knowledge! thanks!
i never really thought about this idea, but this video is awesome. awesome information. nice job, Ian!
i like the format. you should do videos like this Ian.
Amazing how quickly many of the world's militaries jumped on the autoloading pistol bandwagon. Then for some reason it took the US police forces another 80 years to follow suit...
lubey111 - the .38 was a kinder, more loving way to gut shoot someone....just sayin’.....😂🤣😂🤣
Completely different requirements. Many of the world's armed police carried revolvers into the '90s.
Makes sense police aren't gonna see combat elements
Most of it was politics
When you do not have a squad, fire team, whatever to protect you, reliability matters. It is called having the right tool for the job. There are the Hollywood types, and there are those of us who's fathers had a badge.
18:42
I know it says "1050 fps" but he said "Ten thousand fifty feet per second", and I thought those pesky Germans had gone and invented a railgun pistol without our knowledge.
They did. You just have to get it out of the mystery box.
@@Brawler_1337 :O
This was a great episode, would love to see more like this.
I love this type of content please keep it coming. I don't always get to watch the videos so content like thus and the q and a stuff that I can just listen to is great. Thank you for this chanel.
hey Ian, what do you think of the Tokarev TT-33?
I like it.
Well that clears that up.
Ask Ian an open ended question. Receive an open ended answer.
Len M T33 yah hang fire all night long.
very informative wish we could own pistols in the UK !!
You can, you just need to abide by some stupid rules/laws eg, ""Long-barrelled revolvers" and "long-barrelled pistols" meeting specified criteria are not classified as small, and hence prohibited, firearms; it is legal, with a Firearm Certificate, to possess them. The barrel must be at least 30 cm (12 in) long, and the firearm at least 60 cm (24 in) long, which can be achieved by having a permanently attached extension to the grip or butt of the firearm. Long-barrelled single-shot firearms of any calibre, and semi-automatic pistols of .22 rimfire calibres, are permitted with FAC.". From the wiki.
Then there muzzle loaders which are complex, antique firearms are free to own with out any licences.
So yes you can buy one today and stick it over the fire place if you want.
But shooting them needs a firearms/ shotgun certificate and a powder licence.
So basically, nothing you can actually use and so expensive only the wealthy can afford it. A monarchy at its best.
Jay Barker most likely the the UK will ban free speech next
boxfox reyes They never had it in the first place.
"Oi, m8, u got a loicense for that pug video?"
one of the best gun history videos of all time. amazing work
Really interesting video! Thanks for the metric conversions by the way. It made it easier to follow :)
A quick question before watching the whole thing, are the pistols and cartridges shown using the same scale?
Yes, exactly the same scale down to the fraction of a pixel.
Forgotten Weapons As expected: great, accurate work, thanks
Forgotten Weapons lol
what's funny?
azz187 within the first two minutes of the video Ian addressed this and his answer here was sarcasm and was completely opposite to what's stated in the video.
Could you do a video about the concealed carry/civilian market around 1900 please? Maybe how the laws differed across Europe and the states when it came to that? When you say one gun or another wasn't very popular with civilians, why not? Were reviews of guns published in magazines or was it all word of mouth that you found out which guns to avoid?
Most of the country had concealed carry bans by the time 1900 came around most states had already begun banning in the early 1800s because of fear of slaves freed slaves and abolitionists with the exception of Vermont the state founded on abolitionism almost everyone banned concealed weapons before revolvers were even invented only in the 1970s-80s did concealed carry begin to be legalized first may issue than shall issue than finally constitutional carry
Yes , there was a big spate of anti gun legislation around the turn of the ( 20th) century . But that said there was lots of concealed carry taking place .
This video was specifically about early semiauto pistols, and very interesting from an historical and engineering perspective . But what most people were actually carrying / keeping at hand were revolvers .
The .38S&W( not Special) was introduced in 1876 , and probably the best ctg then for true Pocket sized revolvers . Heck , I've pocket carried a S&W Third Mdl Safety Hammerless in .38s&w , and felt at least as well armed as with a .380 .
Other popular calibers of the day included .38Short Colt , .32 Long of both S&W and Colt Flavors, .32S&W, .32 Short Colt , .22rimefire, .41rimfire, both short and long , all of US origins .
Imports included .44Webbly, .442Webbly, .450 . And Peters Ammunition made ammo in " .44 Bulldog " that wasn't a specific chambering , but was usable in several .
As to the guns , actual Colt, Smith&Wesson, and Webbly were the top . Actual Iver Johnson and H&R had solid reputation for the mid price market , and some inovative features in their own right .
The debate between S&W top breaks , and Colt's early swing outs was a Ford vs Chevy thing . But solid frame revolvers were common, and commonly used .
And there were zillions of knockoffs of everything , the quality ranging from virtually indistinguishable from the real thing, to mostly serviceable , to total junk . And to further confuse things , both Iver J and H&R made theirs with private branding for a myriad of retailers and distributors .
Were they any good ? Back in the day, rapid reloading wasn't a concern with pocket pistols . Within that caveat , many of them fulfilled there purposes .
I alluded above , but with my ( now) .38S&W Hammerless , the first 5 rounds I fired with it went 5 for 5 on a 6in steel plate @ 17yds, offhand, one handed, with POI/POA dead on .
By modern tastes , the .22s, .32s&w, and .32Short would be woefully underpowered . But with .32 and .380 pocket autos being popular today, the .32Longs, .38short, and .38S&W would be in similar territory ( at least for the first 5 or 6 shots ).
Great video really enjoyed being able to visualize the time line! Learned a lot as well. Thanks keep up the great work
Really great video, as usual! Kind of glad that I somehow missed this one til now.
Why is the bolt blacked out on the C96? (4:56)
Because I did a poor job of removing the background from the image.
Forgotten Weapons could you please post a link to an image of the following gun? M1896 Compact Mauser. also imagine if you will a bull pupped c96 carbine with the trigger just in front of and below the magazine and the grip coming out of the bottom of the magazine. would have made for a great carbine.
When a reply has more likes then the comment...
11:02 when you use an N64 to render a 1911
@@mighty_booshy4310 sir your mind is playing with you
I like this format very much as a comparison and overview of a whole bunch of guns and rounds.
Nothing but great stuff on this channel. Thanks for the vid!
15:50 thats a sexy gun
Webley 1904. Wait, that thing sold?
Ian this video sums up why I enjoy watching your channel. Many thanks.
The 1903 Bergmann fired at ten thousand and fifty feet per second? Holy shit that cartridge was screaming! :p
I think you should also have mention and tell more about the 7.65 longue (7.65 × 20mm) that i think there is no enough information around for this cartridge.
That round was developed after WWI, and falls well out of the scope of this video.
Forgotten Weapons Thanks Ian
Hmm, mic sounds off in this video. Very tinny and compressed.
Seems to be a recurring theme in his video's, I can't figure out why he keeps messing these settings up.
I love how the sound is retro on this video
This channel really deserves way more subscribers.
ten thousand fifty fps! that sumbitch is MOVIN! I'm sorry Ian I couldn't help it you are awesome dude.
Love GUNS
I have two civilian FN 1903 still in the 9mm Browning Long and a Husqvarna built m1907 that was rechambered in the '50's to .380 acp. Bought a New Old Stock barrel and recoil spring on eBay in 9mmBL and now shoot both the 9mmBL and 9mm Kurz (.380acp) in it.
Privi Partizan loads 9mmBL and I find it to be very accurate and quite peppy!
As Always, Ian, very informative and professional. THKS!