EG4 6000XP - Part 7 - Settings and Thoughts I - Solar System Upgrade
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- čas přidán 27. 01. 2024
- Part 7 of actually 8 videos including the ground mount and growing. Ya this name is starting to get a little long now lol. My current thoughts and findings now that I'm running it. Some good and some not so good things. Wish I didn't have to work so much and could play with this all day. I didn't fry the inverter yet so that's good! I love the "start" charging on the app! It's been such a bad cloudy month, I've really got to try out the A/C charge import on it a lot and it works well if I can find the right voltage and keep my BMS from shutting the batteries off before the inverter can charge it. I need the inverter to start charging AC before that happens so I have some redundancy to the system! Been a problem. But with a change in batteries and what I've learned so far, I think I can make it work. Thanks for watching.
Update: I finally got the right voltage and the BMS is no longer shutting off the batteries 1st. I will be replacing the batteries with the new balanced one and rebalancing this battery finally. That will take a few weeks but is pretty easy. Then I can get them both online for 28K bank which will help a lot. And I need a lot more panels now lol. Always something isn't it lol. More to come later as I go thought this new inverter. - Hudba
There's several communication protocols the controller can read. A BMS with CAN / Pylon protocol will work.
Interesting I'll keep that in mind. I'm not interested right now in adding more equipment, money and time for something I don't really need. I finally found the voltage settings so I'm good now with the inverter starting the A/C charging before BMS shuts off battery. That's all i needed and my BMS is now backup to inverter. I don't have enough free time to learn something else lol but thanks for the advice. Others may what to use it! Thanks for the comment! Take care
I use the JK B2A24S20P BMS with 2 amp active balancing @ 200A 48V. it is a Smart BMS with Bluetooth. As soon as the cell voltage hits 3.45v it begins balancing the pack. JK also makes the same thing in an inverter style that will talk with the EG4 inverter/charger. your overkill BMS is made by JBD and is a passive balancer. Passive has a hard time keeping the battery equal.
Interesting, I'll look into it some day lol. If you read the above comment I made about what I think about balancing you might understand why I don't spend a lot of time with devices that say they will balance a battery. After 5 years with these batteries, I really don't have that much problem. This one is off because they were never balanced as a set but are 2 separate batteries over the last few years. That may be a problem, I'll soon find out. Balancing the batteries is easy once you reconfigure them. It just takes several weeks of doing nothing but topping them. In my opinion, it's faster and better than any cell balancer (easy and no time) so I really don't mind. Thanks for your commit, wishing you the best. Take care.
I've been looking into JK bms for a looped system with the EG4's. Does it really communicate with the EG4 6000XP? Off grid garage also came across a chip that will do crazy stuff between inverters and JK bms's.
Yes, he calls it the Peter Board. The JK-BMS inverter version will communicate with LuxPower based EG4 inverters.
@@stevenfrazier8939 Yep, the peter board ...lol
Thanks so much. I have been trying to verify this for a few days now.
I will have to make a video to ask about the "communication" between BMS and the inverter as I would like to know more about what the inverter can do with this infromation and how it relates to the BMS. What does it actually communicate and how can it benefit the system, mainly will my inverter be able to read each cell on each battery and react? or is it just simple total battery voltage etc. I need to learn more about this. Thanks for comments@@stevenfrazier8939
That looks quite nice! The bank probably needs to be larger and you'll probably want even more solar. Once you start using hybrid inverter solutions you will quickly find that the "idle power" of the inverter is pretty bad, usually 30W-60W. So you need to have enough solar and storage for that vampire draw to be less consequential.
The BMS high-side disconnect should be roughly 3.65V/cell. Typical charging parameters are to charge to 3.55V/cell (bulk target), which would be 56.8V, then hold there for 1-2 hours (absorption) to give the BMS time to balance the cells, then drop to a float of 53.6V to 54.0V. Disable any current tail setting in the charger.
The key to keeping the cells in balance is to hold at the charge target for long enough for the BMS to be able to make progress on its balancing. If you can program the BMS, program it with the above settings. Also if you can program the BMS's cell balance-start voltage, select a voltage of 3.45V or 3.50V for the balance-start. No lower than 3.40V (the balancer will make incorrect decisions if trying to balance below 3.40V/cell and tend to take the battery out of balance instead of bring it into balance).
If the cells are way out of balance it could take quite a while, as in weeks, for the BMS to be able to get them back into balance. Once they are in balance you should no longer be hitting any sort of BMS disconnect on the high side (with the 3.55V/cell charging target).
For the low-side disconnect, the bank will be at 48.0V at 95% discharged, roughly (3.0V/cell). That's the level I recommend you program the EG4 to stop drawing from the batteries. Once the BMS has balanced the bank it shouldn't be disconnecting prior to the bank dropping to 48.0V. The BMS typically disconnects when a cell hits 2.7V (43.2V for the bank).
You definitely do not want to allow the cells to get too low, for multiple reasons. And you are correct that a properly configured and balanced system should never be hitting BMS disconnects.
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For the solar panels, either configuration works. The straight line would probably be easier to work with and also be easier when expanding the system later (to add a second line). Go for the highest string VOC that the EG4 can handle to minimize cabling losses. But be sure to have a 20% margin of error for the labeled VOC on the panels that you add up vs the EG4's maximum DC input voltage, particularly since the panels will be more efficient than usual in the cold weather.
-Matt
Hi Matt, Thanks for the detailed comment. I agree lol I don't have near enough panels right now and the current 14k battery is pushing the lower limit hence why I have the second battery which will get me to 28k which will work a lot better. either way I hook up the panels they will be in series so I can get my voltage up higher. I can't go all 16 in series since that will push it over the voltage with the same 20% margin of error on cold days you talked about which is a dilemma I am facing. I can only put 14 which leave me with 2 to spare. That's not near enough to charge a 28k battery bank lol. The higher voltage coming in would increase the efficiency of the solar charger for sure too. So yes I know I need up the panels to beyond 14 panels. Fortunately, I have the 2nd MPPT on the inverter so I can add different panels when I do expand it more. If I get a second 6000XP i will have 2 more different arrays I can add as well. So I do like that about this inverter, room to grow.
Regarding the battery balancing, I find the amount these BMS's produce and the limit of being able to balance all the time, is not worth the effort or money trying to make it happen. I just take them off line once a year or two and re-balance them when they get too far out. I'm really not sold on balances. Maybe I'll change my mind when I have more free time to play with it but right now, it's not as critical as the other things I need next and my time is too limited. Great comment and I appreciate your input! Thanks and take care!
@@LivingFree4All Sounds like you have a great handle on what you want to do. I'll add two more observations that may help.
The first is... remember that you can always wire solar panels into discrete charge controllers (such as a Victron 100/20, or a Victron 150/35) to aid in charging the battery. For discrete charge controllers the string operating voltage only has to be about +5V over the battery charge target... call it 62V, so there is more flexibility. 3 smaller panels in series or two residential panels in series is usually enough to get something going.
There is really no limit on the number of charge controllers you can connect to the battery beyond ensuring that the total maximum charging amps is within the capabilities of the bank. For a large battery, that is typically a lot of amps so it isn't a problem.
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The second observation is that being able to charge the bank to full is a function of solar power verses consumption. Once the bank is big enough to cover 24 hours, the size of the bank no longer matters so much in terms of daily operation. Only in terms of extra buffer to bridge bad days.
If the daily solar generation is insufficient to cover 24-hours of consumption the battery state of charge will simply continue to drop day after day until its is knocking against empty. And if the daily solar generation is sufficient, the battery will slowly claw-back its charge day after day until it starts knocking against 100%.
Optimizing this is as much about optimizing/reducing the consumption as it is about adding solar to cover the consumption.
Good luck! I wish I had that much space for my panels. I mostly have to put them on my roof which takes a lot more effort.
-Matt
Ya ouch on the roof solar, I am lucky with having some land so it was always going to be a ground mount for me. I like to have 3 days of battery power without solar and had it before my upgrade. Living on the east coast, boy it can be cloudy a lot especially at the worst time winter! I want total independence from grid. I'm not there yet lol. I really need 4 times the solar panels that I have now for both batteries but fortunately solar panels are the cheapest part of this system and I got space. I will add a 11-12k propane generator to the system with 500 or higher gallon propane tank just of battery charging when cloudy days discharge my batteries to get me fully off grid. There is a lot more to solar than people think, what you are running on it, how efficient are the things you are running, etc etc. and I find it challenging and fun learning the reality of it. Cheaper to use more efficient appliances than addng more inverter/batteries/solar panels and that is where most should start then develop the solar system or at least both lol. I did love my victron 250/70 solar charger and I'm going to have to find use for it again here tied directly to batteries like you said. Great advice and Thanks for the comment. Take care!
Edited: btw this EG4 6000XP has two separate MPPT chargers so I can put 2 different solar array configured on it , plus I can use my old Victron 250/70 direct to battery too to add more solar to the system. Now i need another pallet of panels lol, It never ends does it lol Thanks
@@junkerzn7312
I like the new intro. Yes I agree the transfer switch in the 6000XP is really good. I'm powering almost my entire main floor with it. Since my panels aren't mounted yet I'm not getting enough solar daily to meet the demand. So when I hit my "On Grid EOD Discharge" percent of 20% it switches to bypass.
As for the vampire loss you're also losing some on the way in and out of the batteries. I think it's 5% each way. That may account for the difference you see from Solar + Import doesn't equal Demand. Thanks for all the tips on the software. If you have the real estate I vote to keep the panels in a straight line as it is easier and gives you more usable land.
Thanks! Agreed and my solar isn't enough either lol always something isn't it but one day i will pull the plug lol! Ya I'm thinking straight line too for now too since I can really only add 6 more panels with the V offset from cold and it would look off balance plus its easier! I'm all for easier lol i do love that Quick Charge button from anywhere my phone can go. If a storm is coming and batteries are low, push it and an hour later I've got 50% or better charge back in my batteries without even being at home! I'm gald I hooked it to grid actually far more dependable for now and no clock, computer, modem resets! Thanks again for your comment! Take care
Thanks for taking the time to make these videos. They give a lot of good info.
I was wondering if you added an EG4 ChargeVerter to your system (via the battery bus bars) to charge the batteries, if that would make a difference in keeping your system charged? This way, should the battery get to low, the grid connection can take over, but the ChargeVerter should always keep your batteries at a nominal charge.
Just a suggestion ...
A/C from the grid charging should be clean no need for EG4 Chargverter. I have been looking into using it for my generator hookup but I have to verify it's really necessary myself. It is also a whole different hookup for me because of distance to generator. If this inverter is so delicate that it needs special hookup than I l'll move on to another and why does it even have a generator breaker? I think a larger generator is a better answer (11-12k propane should be fine) Too many salesmen on UTube wanting us to buy everything and trying to get us to believe them. It sounds good on Utube but those people make $ on selling it so I have to research and find out for myself. Don't believe everything you hear on UTube. Great comment, one im looking into myself. Thanks!
@@LivingFree4All thanks for responding. I’m still in the planning stage. I’m thinking of using it initially as a grid down backup. Then add solar.
Want to run grid power to 6000xp. Then back to an interlock in my main with 100a breaker to give me some expansion to a second 6000xp
Then generator inlet to a chargeverter directly into my battery for grid down conditions. I’ll slowly add breakers from my inverter to some 240 devices and work my way up slowly. Don’t want to use the gen breaker on the 6000xp because if I do go to 2 of them, creates more boxes and wiring.
@@Barc7580 One thing I'd say about the EG4 chargeverter is that it is really easy to dial in the amps so you have the most efficient load on the generator. You can turn on the generator, charge at maximum efficiency to the desired level, then turn off the generator. That can really save on fuel.
So if the 6000XP has trouble handling a noisy generator, the chargeverter is going to be an excellent alternative.
I am currently trying to decide between the 6000XP or an 18k PV when I finally get around to replacing the 6500EX.
Lol I can't help you with the 6500EX (ive heard some not so good things about it but I really don't know) or the 18k PV. To each their own I say. If you wanted to buy batteries for it (a big yes considering the current world conditions and no grid in the future or other reasons) I would go with a server rack battery. Sad part is, the batteries are the most expensive part of the system. Panels go for $50 each if you don't get top of the line or can go used, which mine are and they produce about the same amount of power and i have no reason to believe that's going to stop anytime soon, guess I'll find out. 5-6 years and still strong as new! Good luck with what you go for. Let me know you thoughts once you start down your path! Thanks for the comment, Take care!
I have the 18K PV it can handle load imbalance real well. up to 8,000 watts on one leg plus it only uses 70 watts to run as a 12k inverter. I have 14.6k of bi-facial SEG panels and it can handle 18k no trouble.
One nice thing about doing 3 of these 6000xp would be the redundancy factor. If one went out you would still have 12k working. That's why I went with the 6000xp. Redundancy means a lot to me. But im going to pay the price on additional power drain of 3 of them!
What size breaker do you have from the grid to the inverter?
I have 50 amp breakers. Thanks for comment, Take care.
just ordered a 6000xp I hope it was not a mistake. I have 3600 watts of panels for now. I have 4 12 volt lifepo4 standard 100 batteries. Is this going to work for me? New to solar. Thanks New sub.
The 6000xp is a 48v system so putting your batteries in series should work. Of course you're always going to want more panels and batteries lol
I thought it was supposed to have a 2p40 breaker and 8 awg wire from grid . I can't read your chart, nice chart but too small to see numbers.
BTW, this inverter does not have export to grid function
Correct no export capabilities but it's part of the app so I'm guessing they are planning on expanding it.
No I use a 2P50 amp breaker, the same breaker that comes with the inverter and is the Grid breaker on the inverter so it should be fine and i connected it with 6 gauge wire not 8. And boy does it charge fast at up to 110 amps! I slowed it to 80amps off grid to not overload my subpanel.
And yes the chart are even hard for me to read, you can't enlarge them either, that would be a nice upgrade to it.
Always nice to hear from you Bob!Thanks for the comments, take care
@@LivingFree4All I reviewed the manual. It recommends 8awg wire but doesn't mention breaker size for grid input! I saw the "50" on all three breakers on the inverter but have seen other people use a 2p40 for grid input. Strange, that's why I asked. I'm gonna do what you did! Thanks for prompt response
@@bobcole3852 The EG4 supports 50A from the grid, I believe, and the transfer switch is also rated to 50A. So a 50A breaker is generally what you want.
Hmm. The EG4 manual specifies 8 AWG. It is unclear whether that is a nominal specification or the biggest wire the terminals can take. The battery terminals specify down to 1 AWG.
I personally use AWG tables for "power transmission" to minimize losses, though in this case it is unlikely that the AC input would actually be run at its limit so the temperature table is probably more reasonable. For power transmission 50A is 5 AWG but 8 AWG is ok on temperature (90C).. though a little toasty. If the nominal draw is only 25A, though, 8 AWG is fine.
The bigger problem here is what the EG4's AC terminals can actually take. Looks like maybe 8 AWG is the biggest but the manual doesn't give a range. It just says "8 AWG".
-Matt
I used 6 gauge and it fit perfectly in the 6000XP. You can see it in my earlier videos when I was hooking this up. 6 Gauge is fine to use but I don't think you can get larger to fit. I also connected 0/2 to the battery terminals no problem. I just don't use anything less than 0/2 for batteries with the idea I am expanding the system over time. Thanks Matt, Take care! @@junkerzn7312
Does your bms not come with a communications port?
Not one that will work with the EG4 or I should say, without adding other devices etc. I'm old school and don't like buying the latest "greatest" thing. I figured out the voltage I needed and it's working fine now. It's not using the full capacity of the battery but will once it's balanced so I would prefer to not add more devices to the system, spend more time learning how to use it correctly only to find out it doesn't add that much amp to really make a difference (I mean really, 2 amps for this size battery only when it's over 3.45V? How does that really help much?) that would off set my time and money. I'm just not sold those kinds of things unless I can prove it myself. Too many people selling on Utube as what I call nowadays " reality TV salesmen" as if they really care about your system. It's all about the money sadly. Thanks for you comment. Wishing you the best. Take Care.
@@LivingFree4All Each to their own. As someone with a background in engineering I can say that as long as you are not over charging the cells horrendously every day they should be just fine.
Hi Dave, I am not over (or under charging), I can't get enough solar to do that with these panels lol. I shut down all AC charging at 3.4V as I don't want to use anymore grid power than needed just to get them to about 50%. Plus my BMS will not let any one cell go over 3.64 as I set it, not even 3.65 ever. I'm not an engineer but I play one on UTube lol I'm just a 40 year contractor in construction with 4 years at Tesla so I like to play like I don't know what I'm doing but I know more than most think lol Thanks for your concerns, I appreciate it. Take care.@@davefroman4700
As an engineer you measure with a micrometer and I mark it with a crayon lol btw that's a joke from my father who is also an engineer. He once spent 15 minutes explaining to me how to safely erect my kids swing set when I picked up the 6x6, climbed the ladder with it and placed it on the top 2 seconds later and his response was, or you could do it that way, while laughing, not that it works out that way always. I do hire structural engineers to cover my ass for sure lol@@davefroman4700