Explaining the speed and Rev differences was huge for me. I'm a slow but high rev bowler looking to replace my stolen balls. This will help me greatly.
Now I'm more confused than before I watched the first video! I think I'll stick to telling my pro shop guy things like "I need more length, and my ball doesn't have enough continuation." He seems to understand this a lot better than me. I did, however, try a 3 3/8 drill on a ball I was having trouble with on heavier conditions and it made a HUGE difference. Don't ask me what the other measurements are, but the pin to pap was the 3 3/8 measurement. It puts the pin touching the side of my ring finger and the MB is touching the thumb hole.
Thank you my twin name for the great information to what I'm knew to this kind of knowledge, now that I'll observe this to any bowling video that I'll watch. This could help me understanding and see what will my customer wants for his ball reaction in the future :).
It would have been nice to have a fourth video that brings all of these together. The first two videos (Pin to PAP and PSA to PAP) were remarkably similar in effect, that it's hard to learn anything meaningful from it. For instance... if both a medium Pin to PAP and PSA to PAP can create instability, which one should I drill for? Or do both come into play?
Very good video on how the distance between the VAL and Pin effect ball motion. I had a Roto Grip Shooting star with a large pin buffer that was very smooth and reacted very late and it increased my scores on a short pattern and burned up lanes.
I feel like this should have been the first video, but overall great series! I know everybody has those non-bowling friends that ask the question, "is bowling really that technical, dude?". Then you start explaining rg, pin placement, and psa and they give you that blank stare look Lol
This is simply an outstanding demonstration of a pin up vs pin down layout and how you can have two identical symmetrical balls laid out pin up and pin down for league bowling. When you see that ten pin start to stand as the game goes on, because energy is being lost due to the lane transitioning, pull out your same ball but with a pin down layout and watch that stored energy blast that ten pin out. Realize there are other adjustments you can make, this is just one you should have in your arsenal. Bottom line watch YOUR BALL “ROLL” through the pins and off the deck!
It's not just pin-up vs pin-down. It's a factor of the angle of the Vertical Axis Line from the Positive Axis Point to the Pin. You could shoot the Pin right above the bridge or middle finger and it would slow the transition time down tremendously.
The visuals of these videos are excellent. But I think there needs to be a version done for the layman. I'm an expert in certain fields. If I speak to my grandson using technical terms, his eyes will glaze over. But if I show him the same visual example with a practical explanation in terms he already understands, he will learn something.
I would like to see the bowling ball pictured according to where the PIN, PAP and orientation of the block are at release when discussing layouts (thumb hole up and finger holes down). When the bowling ball is pictured PIN up the finger holes actually are upside down. It requires mental gymnastics to imagine the positions of the PIN, PAP, and block when the bowling ball is pictured upside down.
ok, i roll a slower ball with a fairly high rev rate so after watching all 3 videos I guess I want a 1 1/2 in. pin to pap, a 2in. psa to pap and a 4 in. pin buffer. I need all the help i can get. my ball hooks past the head pin, no matter how far left I stand, so im going to the pro shop and getting a ball with the weakest cover I can find and a mellow wt. block and have him drill it. I only bowl for fun with my buddys but I wish I could get my ball not to hook as much in thew back end.
A ball that will start early and not flare a whole bunch. It will create an "arc" motion. Unless you have a huge Asym or really high revs, I wouldn't suggest it. If you are using a big Asym, you can adjust the PSA to PAP and lower the transition time by lengthening the PSA to PAP. I know this is an old comment, but this is incase anybody comes across this and is wondering.
It looks like the 1” pin buffer hyroad goes faster through its phases than the 4” does. I always thought that a pin down layout such as the one one the 4” pin buffer has a sooner and continuous hook compared to the late and sharp reaction of a pin up?
4" pin buffer makes the ball take longer to go through the hook phase, a more rounded arc break versus the 1" sharp break point basically think 1" sharp hockey stick motion, versus 4" rounded arc. as far as earlier or later, yes rg has an effect, but the surface really determines that so much more than layout. especially on two of the same symmetrical balls like this, the psa always winds up in the thumb hole on an asym you can create earlier or later reactions with smaller or larger drill angles using the dual angle system, or in storms system, shorter psa to pap equals earlier
Is it basically that we've just thought about it wrong? Getting into a roll early makes it more angular, correct? So we would still get the more angular motion on the pin up ball.
There’s no PSA pre drilling so there’s basically an imaginary PSA the Pro Shop uses 6 3/4 inches away through the CG. Once the ball is drilled the PSA is in the thumb. Per Mo Pinel. This all new for me too but is very helpful. On symmetrical balls what’s important is the Pin to Pap and the Pin buffer distance.
Wonderful Series. Time to go quiz my pro. He was drilling bowling balls for Leanne Hulsenberg before she moved to Utah. He is a young guy, who drills my equipment that cracks in half after 6months. I just purchased a Storm Intense drilled 4-4-2. It is a used bowling ball, so it might crack also. I'm purchasing a used code red after my back surgery on Nov-18th. I asked him to drill this ball at 4-4-1. Am I correct about this. My avg. is 179..
Alan the layout will not have any impact on whether a ball cracks or not, as long as the locator pin is not partially drilled into. Partially drilled pin will void the warranty on the ball.
David Henson Yes, him and I spoke about this. He drilled my code red and put the pin in the middle of my fingers, 1 inch up. So waiting til next August, and my healing will be over..
1. Put some POLISH on the surface. This will help the ball "get down the lane" using less "delivery force (i.e., it'll "slide" easier)". 2. Do you "roll" the ball (hand BEHIND the ball at release) or "spin" the ball (hand ON THE SIDE of the ball at release)? a "rolling" ball will get the core working sooner (i.e., transition to "hook" earlier), a "spinning" ball will SLIDE FARTHER before it transitions to "hook". Have the Pro Shoperator at your center observe your "mechanics, etc." It may be your "mechanics" (swing and release) are fine, but your ball needs a different layout OR the ball's layout is fine and you need help with your "mechanics". Either way, try putting POLISH on the surface. FWIW, I have a HyRoad Pearl and I need it "polished" as its' cover is very "aggressive" for being a pearl (and its' CORE is nothing to "sneeze at" either!). :)
Putting Polish on the ball will give you more angle to the Pocket also. Lower RG balls also Give you a more Dramatic angle to tha pocket. So the storm sonic that is LOW RG and polish is going to give you a LOT of HOCKEY Stick angle to tha pocket
Other things being equal, as shown in the different motions of the 1" (which puts the pin above the finger) and the 4" (pin below the fingers) pin buffer balls, pin down layouts "go longer," even though the common phrase "go longer" is not really precise enough. It's one of several semi-technical colloquial bowling terms that add to confusion rather than clarity. A layout that puts the pin below the fingers will take longer to transition from skid to hook to roll, in effect "going longer."
You say you want a later hook and role phase when on a worn pattern, but in your other video, you say that pearl balls, which hook later, are bad for over under
Pearls save most of their energy for when they see dry. With worn lanes, that could be sooner if the pattern is really torn up. If it does see pockets of the dry, it will cause it to attempt a transition when there may be more oil causing it to skid once again.
Need video 4...putting them all together :)
Explaining the speed and Rev differences was huge for me. I'm a slow but high rev bowler looking to replace my stolen balls. This will help me greatly.
Really enjoyed the video series! Looking forward to more!
Now I'm more confused than before I watched the first video! I think I'll stick to telling my pro shop guy things like "I need more length, and my ball doesn't have enough continuation." He seems to understand this a lot better than me.
I did, however, try a 3 3/8 drill on a ball I was having trouble with on heavier conditions and it made a HUGE difference. Don't ask me what the other measurements are, but the pin to pap was the 3 3/8 measurement. It puts the pin touching the side of my ring finger and the MB is touching the thumb hole.
Thank you my twin name for the great information to what I'm knew to this kind of knowledge, now that I'll observe this to any bowling video that I'll watch. This could help me understanding and see what will my customer wants for his ball reaction in the future :).
Great video Alex a lot of great knowledge of bowling ball layouts!!
It would have been nice to have a fourth video that brings all of these together. The first two videos (Pin to PAP and PSA to PAP) were remarkably similar in effect, that it's hard to learn anything meaningful from it.
For instance... if both a medium Pin to PAP and PSA to PAP can create instability, which one should I drill for? Or do both come into play?
Great videos Alex!! a TON of great information!
Just want to thank you 4 the Info. I'm 80 years old and need a new Ball. Thanks again.
Very good video on how the distance between the VAL and Pin effect ball motion. I had a Roto Grip Shooting star with a large pin buffer that was very smooth and reacted very late and it increased my scores on a short pattern and burned up lanes.
I feel like this should have been the first video, but overall great series! I know everybody has those non-bowling friends that ask the question, "is bowling really that technical, dude?". Then you start explaining rg, pin placement, and psa and they give you that blank stare look Lol
This is simply an outstanding demonstration of a pin up vs pin down layout and how you can have two identical symmetrical balls laid out pin up and pin down for league bowling. When you see that ten pin start to stand as the game goes on, because energy is being lost due to the lane transitioning, pull out your same ball but with a pin down layout and watch that stored energy blast that ten pin out. Realize there are other adjustments you can make, this is just one you should have in your arsenal. Bottom line watch YOUR BALL “ROLL” through the pins and off the deck!
It's not just pin-up vs pin-down. It's a factor of the angle of the Vertical Axis Line from the Positive Axis Point to the Pin. You could shoot the Pin right above the bridge or middle finger and it would slow the transition time down tremendously.
Well done
excellent!!
So my arsenal could be complete if I bought 1 more storm Intense and had it drilled weaker than my Intense I have now?
Could somebody direct me to a video showing exactly HOW to locate the pin buffer.
Pin to VAL czcams.com/video/v8soXaercu8/video.html
I would love to see the same comparison with an assymetric ball. Will the difference get even bigger, or smaller?
Would like to see the same video, but with the 4 inch pin buffer higher in relation to the fingers. Think that should be do able?
The visuals of these videos are excellent. But I think there needs to be a version done for the layman. I'm an expert in certain fields. If I speak to my grandson using technical terms, his eyes will glaze over. But if I show him the same visual example with a practical explanation in terms he already understands, he will learn something.
I would like to see the bowling ball pictured according to where the PIN, PAP and orientation of the block are at release when discussing layouts (thumb hole up and finger holes down). When the bowling ball is pictured PIN up the finger holes actually are upside down. It requires mental gymnastics to imagine the positions of the PIN, PAP, and block when the bowling ball is pictured upside down.
ok, i roll a slower ball with a fairly high rev rate so after watching all 3 videos I guess I want a 1 1/2 in. pin to pap, a 2in. psa to pap and a 4 in. pin buffer. I need all the help i can get. my ball hooks past the head pin, no matter how far left I stand, so im going to the pro shop and getting a ball with the weakest cover I can find and a mellow wt. block and have him drill it. I only bowl for fun with my buddys but I wish I could get my ball not to hook as much in thew back end.
What is the effect if you place your pin 2 inches to PAP with 1 inch buffer?
A ball that will start early and not flare a whole bunch. It will create an "arc" motion. Unless you have a huge Asym or really high revs, I wouldn't suggest it. If you are using a big Asym, you can adjust the PSA to PAP and lower the transition time by lengthening the PSA to PAP.
I know this is an old comment, but this is incase anybody comes across this and is wondering.
It looks like the 1” pin buffer hyroad goes faster through its phases than the 4” does. I always thought that a pin down layout such as the one one the 4” pin buffer has a sooner and continuous hook compared to the late and sharp reaction of a pin up?
MrJochemke The 4” pin buffer will have increased rg making ball go longer and lowered it in the 1”.
4" pin buffer makes the ball take longer to go through the hook phase, a more rounded arc break versus the 1" sharp break point
basically think 1" sharp hockey stick motion, versus 4" rounded arc.
as far as earlier or later, yes rg has an effect, but the surface really determines that so much more than layout. especially on two of the same symmetrical balls like this, the psa always winds up in the thumb hole
on an asym you can create earlier or later reactions with smaller or larger drill angles using the dual angle system, or in storms system, shorter psa to pap equals earlier
Me too. 🤔🤔🤔
Is it basically that we've just thought about it wrong? Getting into a roll early makes it more angular, correct? So we would still get the more angular motion on the pin up ball.
Yes, pin up layouts will look "more angular," because they do their "work" more quickly than a pin down layout.
How do you find the PSA on a Symmetrical ball?
it'll be in the thumb unless there are weightholes.
Thanks, I went 6-1/4" from the pin and used that is my PSA. I know the video showed it in the Thumb hole too.
There’s no PSA pre drilling so there’s basically an imaginary PSA the Pro Shop uses 6 3/4 inches away through the CG. Once the ball is drilled the PSA is in the thumb. Per Mo Pinel. This all new for me too but is very helpful. On symmetrical balls what’s important is the Pin to Pap and the Pin buffer distance.
Wonderful Series. Time to go quiz my pro. He was drilling bowling balls for Leanne Hulsenberg before she moved to Utah. He is a young guy, who drills my equipment that cracks in half after 6months. I just purchased a Storm Intense drilled 4-4-2. It is a used bowling ball, so it might crack also. I'm purchasing a used code red after my back surgery on Nov-18th. I asked him to drill this ball at 4-4-1. Am I correct about this. My avg. is 179..
Alan the layout will not have any impact on whether a ball cracks or not, as long as the locator pin is not partially drilled into. Partially drilled pin will void the warranty on the ball.
David Henson Yes, him and I spoke about this. He drilled my code red and put the pin in the middle of my fingers, 1 inch up. So waiting til next August, and my healing will be over..
I have to really throw my high road pearl fast to get any decent reaction, does anyone play with the surface of this ball for better carry?
1. Put some POLISH on the surface. This will help the ball "get down the lane" using less "delivery force (i.e., it'll "slide" easier)".
2. Do you "roll" the ball (hand BEHIND the ball at release) or "spin" the ball (hand ON THE SIDE of the ball at release)? a "rolling" ball will get the core working sooner (i.e., transition to "hook" earlier), a "spinning" ball will SLIDE FARTHER before it transitions to "hook".
Have the Pro Shoperator at your center observe your "mechanics, etc." It may be your "mechanics" (swing and release) are fine, but your ball needs a different layout OR the ball's layout is fine and you need help with your "mechanics". Either way, try putting POLISH on the surface. FWIW, I have a HyRoad Pearl and I need it "polished" as its' cover is very "aggressive" for being a pearl (and its' CORE is nothing to "sneeze at" either!). :)
Putting Polish on the ball will give you more angle to the Pocket also.
Lower RG balls also Give you a more Dramatic angle to tha pocket.
So the storm sonic that is LOW RG and polish is going to give you a LOT of HOCKEY Stick angle to tha pocket
This seems backwards from what I've ever heard. It has always been "pin up goes longer"
pin up will go longer, but will break faster off the spot.
Other things being equal, as shown in the different motions of the 1" (which puts the pin above the finger) and the 4" (pin below the fingers) pin buffer balls, pin down layouts "go longer," even though the common phrase "go longer" is not really precise enough. It's one of several semi-technical colloquial bowling terms that add to confusion rather than clarity. A layout that puts the pin below the fingers will take longer to transition from skid to hook to roll, in effect "going longer."
Brandon Ferris p
what theory for the layout
Isn’t it 1 inch buffer has less flare because it transitioned faster.
Flare amount is determined by Pin to PAP lengths.
That ball in the thumbnail be like :O
3:37 go dOwN the lane
I’m bowling better on Sportshots with 5x5x1 layout on Idol and Physix. Attacking the Johnny Petraglia pattern
You say you want a later hook and role phase when on a worn pattern, but in your other video, you say that pearl balls, which hook later, are bad for over under
Pearls save most of their energy for when they see dry. With worn lanes, that could be sooner if the pattern is really torn up. If it does see pockets of the dry, it will cause it to attempt a transition when there may be more oil causing it to skid once again.
I wish more pro shop operators would watch this and read Alex's blog on pin up vs. pin down. A whole lot of misinformation out there!
For those a little confused putting it all together - czcams.com/video/v8soXaercu8/video.html
1 inch from what? 4 inches from what? Why don't you mention what you're measuring from? Would've made this a lot more helpful.
There is no such word “heighth”