Zwift Race | How to solve the Cat B crazy watts problem
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- čas přidán 18. 02. 2024
- So Cat B Prime Time ZRacing monthly events have always been kind of mad and it brings out a whole load of Cat B pros. So i think i have a solution. Let me know what you think.
This race is on my favourite map in Scotland, but we have to tackle the Sgurr... which is brutal!!
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The thing that people need to understand is that the categories is built around FTP. So if you have a ftp of 4.0w/kg and you join a 20 min race. Ofc you are going to have higher avg than 4.0. On a good day maybe 4.5. Bu that does not change the fact that he is still a cat B rider. Right now I am in cat A and to be competitive in the cat i often need to do 5.0w/kg or close to(i am a light rider). Max I enjoy ur videos but in this case I think you are just a middle cat b rider. And need som more time to get to the top. Keep the grind, cause I and many others will be watching🙌
I agree with this and i think i make this clear. The front of a 30-50 min race should be 4.2+ for sure. BUT saying that Zwift dynamics are designed to keep groups together and bigger riders have an advantage, if you have high gross watts AND can smash high w/kg on a climb then for the best part you are being sheltered in the Zracing events because there arent many climbing races.
I dont actually think they need to change anything, id just like a few more Zraces with the odd hill to spice it up. If i want to hold the front group ill ride at times that are less popular, if i want super spice i join the Mon/Tues Prime Time. When i can hold a Prime Time Mon/Tues and top 10... Then ill know my Jedi training is complete
Don't forget Zwift uses body weight so lighter rider is at a disadvantage on the flat that is why a climb is more accurate to power output
@@barryhambly7711 well that’s where you’re wrong. It’s all about w/kg. When I’m doing ERG on tempus fugit at let’s say 230W others are passing me at 170W. And the other way some heavier riders are winning climbing races. The total algorithm is wrong and you just have to learn it to race well. Light or heavy doesn’t matter
@TSbiker10 you're 100% wrong. There are already multiple videos and analysis on this. Raw watts on flats and w/kg on hills. This is why heavy wins on flats(they naturally put out more watts) and lighter riders win on hills(they can put out higher w/kg). Go do some research.
you are absolutely right, however the issue i experience in cat c, people putting out far far higher numbers than is normal, not a 0.5 or even a1 w.kg. there is also someone on youtube posting videos of their races, winning cat c races with cat d average power numbers. crazy.
We basically need real races that are 50+km with 500+m of climbing but Zwift thinks people only have 45 minutes of free time 🤷🏻♂
Yeah i see that they are designed to be within an hour and youre done. but we do need more events which get people to show their ability...
Legit had people tell me: “I don’t wanna do long races because my average watts will go down, and I’ll go back to Cat C.” The thing is, my local weekly fast group ride is plenty fast with like 6 sprint segments. No problem staying in the draft and hammering when need to. But doing this on Zwift is a different story. I like a good challenge though!
KISS has a 100km race on Sunday mornings. I keep forgetting to try it out
Yep.. DGDC… That’s me in the Evening after getting off Work… Not doing a 50+ K Race… AND Neither should You! After all we hear your Buddy in the Background all the time… That, sorry time with Him is more important in the evening than a 50k Race 🤔😂🚴♀️🚴♂️🚴♀️🚴♂️👍
@@fwschnaar3179after work for you is middle of the day for me when the kids are at school and daycare so 50+k PRIME TIME LETS GOOOOO! lol But of course at night in my timezone there’s no rush to get on cuz Zwift it’s already dead so I take my time with fam dinner bath and bedtime!
I think doing these races as mass starts instead of individual categories will sort the people into their true categories quickly.
a month of this! don't put the cat highlight next to peoples names either!
You mean TT races? how novel!
The problem with your premise is sandbaggers just wouldn’t ride the hilly races. This is a newer problem, for 5 years I was A cat, I used to podium A races, but about a year ago Zwift changed the criteria and now I’m flipping between B/A depending upon my training. What they really need to do is get away from all this W/kg stuff and just make people upgrade on a points based system. It’s already built into Zwiftpower.
Then you'd just get people who just joined Zwift who are seriously good riders dominating lower Cat races until they get the points to upcat
As a relatively inexperienced CAT D Max, I would (tentatively) say that this issue probably exists in all CATs, I have heard B is particularly tough but winning a race in D is almost impossible so I like your longer, tougher race idea. Great video, gets people taking. Like it. 👍
I agree with this. Your idea needs to be across the board. Zwift races need to be longer as well and not just include hard climbs.
As a bottom A cat rider it would be easier to sit in the bunch in b and sprint at the finish and not get upgraded (not quite so easy in primetime), but I prefer to race 100% even if that means getting dropped in A cat. Fingers crossed zwift can fix the cat system this year. Oh and in A cat it doesn’t always come down to a sprint, the climbers make the sprinters pay a hefty price everytime the road goes up! 🥵
Theres far too many people doing this Alan
It would be nice to get a ~2-3km climb like the volcano climb then a 2-3km flat ending.
This way climbers can get an advantage early and get a gap before the sprint or sprinters can try to survive the climb then win on the sprint.
Also as said in the video, a climb will naturally push high cat b into low cat A.
I like keeping the flat ending sprint but a steady climb would correct the abuses.
Max, judged by w/kgs the heavy watt monsters are gonna make Cat B hard on Flat and Rolling. Based on pure watts, the lighter guys will kill the big guys on the hills. The thing about cycling at all levels is that it takes all shapes and sizes. You can't generalise a category system based on either. IRL you simply target the races that fit your specific genetics. If you are bigger it will be more TT, if you are lighter it will be climbing. One rider is not better than the other just different. I am just a middle Cat B rider by result, the only reason why I can't' go with that front pack is the relentless pace. I would probably be quicker up the hills if I had anything left when I got there. I rode that at 3.8/4.0 for the whole ride just to stay in your group. But honestly, I am a totally average guy, 57 and 70kgs holding 270+ NP for that race.. there is always going to be someone quicker than me. The kid that came in 3rd probably benefitted from some weird zwift aero dynamics for being so small which is disproportionate to real life... but still mega power from him though! I need another 20w to stay comfortable when the pack pace picks up. Issue is that I will have to be careful to keep my 20 min effort in Cat B, but as you say a lot of races that are rolling allow both climbers and big guys to hit either high watts or high w/kgs without going over limit. Climbers Gambit is a good course, a lengthy 20 min + of flat rolling into the main climb of around 20 mins. The course is effectively split into watts then w/kg. Sitting in and drafting is different in real life, but if you watch the tour and even triathlon, there is a tendency to ride in groups on the flat. Maybe a bigger advantage in zwift, but races are decided on climbs and sprints on flat courses... so not that much different to zwift. This week I was ahead of you at the end unlike last week. How the race feels and ends up may be more to do with what is in your legs than you think. But you can be sure, in a high ranking B cat race, if you are not on form, it is gonna hurt to be at the front.
Thats why i only do TTs and climbing races (Herd Mountain goats or The mountain massif's). There you cant hide, if you wanna win you have to put down all your watts, your true watts and that usally puts people in the correct cat. Sure, much smaller fields, but it feels more fair.
Personally, I think it should be more of a ranked thing. Heavy riders have a big advantage on the flats where they can easily do 3,5 watt/kg to stay in the peleton while I am dying doing 4,2+watt/kg to hang on. While in reallife I would get a bigger draft bonus. While on the climbs most of the time they are to short so it becomes again a big sprint fest where light riders again do not shine.
Having like a more balanced/variety of races races with harder longer climbs and also putting with similar performances together (the 'ranked system') will improve our enjoyment. The problem is I think the player base, where if we would have more devision, we would have lobbies with less and less people in them (just a prediction of course).
Completely agree 👍
That's all well and good saying people don't like losing, so they try harder, but when you're at the back and watch the pack disappear, go on, you try harder! You just lose the will, and end up on a social ride.
I'm a low cat B, and hate races atm. I very rarely hit 3.2 w/kg. They should reduce the 90 days.
Ah man, you were so close to getting back onto our group near the end, if you had used your aero PU you probably would have made it onto us. Great racing with you again Max, same time next week for another brutal workout! 👊💪💪💪
I had run out of oxygen by that point and my brain just wasn’t working
@@thewattlife That's understandable at the speed we were all going. Definitely the most brutal race of the week (until ZRL tomorrow maybe).
The Volcano Climb is a bit too short to push people to raise their zFTP in B. With how zFTP is calculated from critical power, it probably will push more people to stay in B for longer than move people up by zMAP as the standard for A is really high there. That is actually how they should try to fix categories: Reduce the A/B zMAP limit.
They also really should do a couple of races on Innsbruck UIC, or the Epic/Epic Reverse and maybe Keith hill if they want people to push their zFTP up. Those are the climbs that are long enough to really will push zFTP. The Alpe though is probably too long, but that might work as well.
Yeah thanks for sharing, but you see my point, i just dont know the climbs in Zwift as well. More climbing Zracing events with 200 people... more upgrades... more depth in Cat A, more of a chance for me to eventually move up and not look like a fool... Logic!!
Absolutely monster effort once again, mate. Well done. I agree with your points regarding the categorization system Zwift is using compared to the races they provide and those two aspects not exactly gelling up perfectly. I'm not sure what the solution is. Zwift is trying to appeal to a wider audience, so keeping classifications simple is probably their best bet to attract the most people? But I guess perhaps a categorization system based on peoples strengths? For example, if you're a decent sprinter, you might be categorized higher for a sprint event race? Or perhaps one is not so great at climbing, so a race/event classified as a climbing event, you may be categorized lower for that? Basically, making a classification system based on race types, and rider types as well. That seems complicated just typing that out, but something I reckon should change.
I'm on the lower the middle end of the B cat, so I knew going into my race (different time than yours) that I would get dropped on the climb. I've got a pretty decent sprint, but my climbing could uh.... use work lol... So I set myself a goal. I wanted to be at least in the top half of the field when I crossed the finish line. I managed to achieve that, so I can say, for this route, I'm better than average.... just... lol.
This. When they started the Auto Cat system, I was thinking that they were going to have different classifications based upon course type. Bigger guys who can put out the watts might be A's on flat courses and a B on climbing courses. They could do this. They have all the data.
Nice effort. I'll probably be giving this another crack on Friday at either 13.10 or 16.10 if you fancy it. The other way the B Pro's could be identified is how quickly their HR recovers after the efforts - if you look on Zwift Power it's really obvious when someone is riding well within their limits because their HR recovers more than someone who is at their max the whole time! For reference though someone would have to do a 4.3W/kg for 20 mins to shift their FTP above 4.0 and into Cat A. But I agree, having some more Zwift races up some decent hills would push more of the Cat B Pro's up a level and into the 'Cat A dungeon' as I heard some of them describing it, and help us out of the 'Cat B dungeon' in return! :)
Climbs will definitely sort riders out. Last time i raced Quatch Quest (~2 hours race finishing with ADZ) i got into top 10 because the majority of riders blew up or quit 😂
Totally can agree with that. Used to always race in the B-cat and was always around the top 20, but because I don't have a sprint never got any spectacular results on the flat stages, I thought I was in the right category. I am a light rider so I thought it was normal that I always had 4.2 - 4.4 W/kg. Until I went to do a Tour De Zwift (raced it like a race) on the Achterbahn and did 5.0W/kg over 18min (4.8 over 20) while I set my weight 1.5kg heavier than I really was at the time, something I never knew I could. Looking back, I was sandbagging, without ever realising I was sandbagging. Having more races going uphill will show the real numbers that people can push. Especially for those riders that maybe underestimate their capabilities about the numbers they can push. You will always have a few people that will deliberatly sandbag, but I believe that many of the better riders in B-cat are just underestimating their strenght (maybe out of fear for the A).
You mentioned wanting to know the watts you were putting out on the climbs. If you look on the top grey row on ZwiftPower they have a link to Sprints & KOMs, if you look on there it will give a list of times/watts for each individual. The headers of the segments are nearly always incorrect, but it's generally easy to work out what times relate to each segment. on the Northbound you did 3:30 at 325w or 4.3 w/kg, the fastest B was 3:00 at 398wor 5.5 w/kg. The fastest A was 2:38 at 433w or 6.8 w/kg.
I got dropped just a bit further up the Sgurr, I’d thought I could hang on to the lead pack but it was just too much today. What a race though!
I like your idea of varied routes, just watch what you’re signing up for, Alpe races require a bucket 😂. Personally I reckon I waste watts in group sections on the flat, then I can’t attack the climbs hard enough. But I’m pretty light/small so it can be hard to stay with the group sometimes 🤷🏻♂️
I haven't entered a race all year, but I'm in mandatory A cat because I like long climbs to free ride and have 40 minute efforts over 325 watts in the last 90 days on my profile. Back in the Tour of Watopia, when each stage had a race, I would still treat them as group rides and not sprint at the end.
I didnt really enjoy racing cat b because i was getting dropped with my 85kg on the climbs.
And now i finally did another race came 5th and after the race i was cat A rider.
0 chance of ever winning a race on zwift.
So now im just back to riding in watopia..
Great video!
And you must be family of wout weghorst...
I’m a plus 50 year old with a 280 FTP so Cat B on Zwift. I’d love to race but I’d be dropped in Cat B in the first 5 min. You are definitely onto something.
I'm similar, mid cat B, 299 FTP 80kg, and get dropped almost every time as soon as we go up a hill, even if I'm doing +4wkg for extended periods, and know the course, and get to the front before the hill etc etc.. I think the very wide categories are an issue. Why isn't there masters / age-group racing, or points based? Just making it all watts / wkg doesn't seem a very clever way to categorise.
I like the idea. Many of those Cat B "Pros" will probably not even know that they are sandbagging in Cat B. That's what happened to me. I usually averaged 4.1-4.2W/kg in almost every Cat B race (that should have been a give-away). As you say, the rolling races means that people never actually push themselves to the limit .... it's sort of capped by natural selection. It wasn't until an Epic KOM group ride which I late joined and was motivated to run down the field from the rear that I did a 4.4 and got bumped up. That was back in September ... I do now regularly average 4.6 in Cat A with my personal best being a 4.8 ... just shy of black belt category ... I was massively sandbagging and didn't even know!
This is exactly it. And what I was trying to explain, like you said, being strong but never having to really use your strength for long periods kinda means you don’t really know/reach your full potential in some of these races.
Now I know this is only Zwift and ultimately it’s not really much of a muchness, but like you said a longer climb and you’re like “wow, ok I just did that”.
That is cool to hear
Innsbruck + Volcano KOM are perfect for upgrading people. If Zwift really wanted to upgrade more people, though, they wouldn't have moved the upgrade boundary to 4.4w/kg 20min and 5.4w/kg 5min. They seem to want to eliminate A and have A+ and B instead.
Sure seems like it. They should be expanding A instead of shrinking it. A is pretty sparse if you aren't in the European time zone prime times. Usually there are only a handful of people and the race gets blown up by A+s and obvious cheaters from the gun.
Oh dang that's me at 1:04 mark - Wahoo LeCol kit (Pattybomaye)
Ten Divisions, points like British Cycling for finishes. Take the iracing model and run with it. A-D way too constrained and wide now it doesnt really work. I need to do 256W over 20 mins to get to C. It is ridiculous
I guess your solution would make sense but as a heavier cat b, I also would hate to see the flat races go entirely since there is no way to stay competitive at a certain weight on the mountains, even when putting out some of the highest w/kg
No. No- just like always have one race that’s an actual climb. Like no hinding- Volcano KOM, Radio Tower, ever month or two. It’ll clean out the Cats 🐱 and sort out Cat B/C/D Pros
For me, it’s a bit like crit riders and road riders. Often different types of riders who enjoy their thing. More climbing won’t work - if they drop to C but then do Crit City as a short race specialist they will be straight back to B. This is where we were a year or two ago.
Definitely agreed. There's so many flat courses rhat let people hide their higher FTP by just sitting in and sprinting the segments and finish. Innsbruck UCI course is a nice one to uncover those riders.
I like a good hilly route, because it makes me work a lot harder and also does mean separations and more exciting racing
Or Zwift could weigh their category rankings more heavily to the 5 minute and 1 minute power numbers. FTP and 20 minute power aren't the difference makers in short zwift races, so 'sandbaggers' can take it easy for the majority of races and just use their A level power for short bursts.
Like others say, the sandbaggers won't do the races with long climbs, so they won't get 'caught out' by having to race on longer efforts.
It's the same in cat C. Heavier and stronger riders manage their effort to keep their average w/kg down; dropping massive watts on short climbs and sprint finishes.
Zwift disadvantages lighter riders too, we have put out a higher w/kg to ride at the same speed as heaver riders, even on climbs.
Yeah I do agree that lighter riders get less races that are suited to them
Get a screw together type BB like Wheels mfg or a Token (or even a Hambini one) to avoid the common headaches with press fit bottom brackets.
yeah it’s a screw together Token Ninja BB. I did a build video a while back. I might just need to make sure it’s properly torqued
I really like your take on how to change the Zwift races. I’m a pretty lightweight rider, I’m currently in cat(B) but could maybe ride Cat(A) but my problem is that nearly every race ends in a sprint with nearly no hills, so because I’m lightweight I can’t put out these big wattage numbers like someone heavier, and because there are nearly no hills, the heavier riders can’t be dropped. I think that’s a big downside in zwift racing that they use raw watts and not w/kg to determine speed on flat roads and lightweight riders only have an advantage when the gradient is above 6% and im yet to see a race where the gradient is steep enough for long enough so that the more lightweight riders have an advantage. I have also had the thought to try a Cat(A) race, do you think it’s way harder than Cat(B) or should I just try it?
I’ll try one if you do!!!!
@@thewattlife I’m up for the challenge. Tell me the Cat(A) race you’ll be riding and I’ll do the same race. My name on zwift is the same as on here
Might have to be next week as no way in hell I’m taking on Muckle Yin on in Cat A
@@thewattlife it could be fun (and hard) to ride Cat(A) on Muckle Yin, but I’m ready for next week. Just tell me which race and time and ill do it
I reckon that the only way to move up a category is to ride in the category above. Even if you look at the winners of races they're not actually putting out Cat A figures or it's very borderline... Is this deliberate or is it a result of natural selection ie the strongest riders get 'culled'. It's also worth riding a race which is categorised but all of the cats start at the same time - some of the 3R and KISS races are like this.
Just did this race, I have been sick for a month and this race absolutely destroyed me 😂
Take another month off after this
@@thewattlife no way, i´m racing this again on saturday ❤️
I agree the split CAT races are so much fairer! SOOOOO many Sandbaggers in B CAT.
Whats your trainer difficulty on? On flatter races I manage to maintain FTP for the duration of the race but then struggle on bunch sprint at the end. With races with climbs in just get dropped having trainer difficulty at 100 percent. I feel lowering it would the variable out of online racing and just makes it easier to get into a decent rhythm to maintain throughout the race. I dunno maybe i just need to get fitter and better at gearing lol
95% of all these racers are running 20% trainer difficulty or less. It's sickening.
Yeah, just seems to turn every race into a flat race. 🤷 I wonder whether zwift will include locking it in cat races? Only would apply to smart trainers I guess
It might even be interesting if Zwift did 5-7 day stage race with stages being around 4 hours.
Haha That poor person at 1:16 accidentally turning right instead of left. I can only imagine them thinking "Oh Bugger! Welp... There goes my race I guess??"
Heavier riders have a massive advantage from my experience.
Yeah this is what im finding, but as a mid weight rider it has massively helped me up my game so when i head out side this summer hopefully ill be an absolute weapon
Racing is hard and I don't think anyone can always be in shape to win weekly. I think mostly everyone is in their correct category. This video makes it sound like your frustrated your not winning because you feel your going hard; even if you did win CAT B you would have to upgrade and A's would be even more difficult.
Cool content and keep at it!
Oh trust me I don’t mind that I’m not winning, or even close to winning, or even holding the front group.
I’m just happy to be part of the conversation within the Zwift community
How about using normalized power instead of watts? 🤔
Before I register on zwift power I could go in any cat, not sure if this has changed but if you have people not registered then they will always be able to race what they want
I think this has changed, you don’t have to be on Zwift power to get Cat enforced. But you do have to do a certain amount of riding for Zwift to get your Zmap
B-cat is hard Max! Just got to push more when it matters (over the Sgurr Summit North) and the other way + on the smaller hills, and conserve energy as much as you can going downhill and on the flats. I needed 450watts average to get over the Sgurr Summit North in front today, but that effort gave me time to recover when going downhill on the other side.
I felt strong in terms of fitness i just didnt have the legs as back to big boi training.... Heart is definitely in it
I also enjoy the zwift racing series, and mondays are my preferred day for the reasons you gave. regards the cheating, i think it is possible for zwift to identify those that are cheating by comparing the power on climbs, sprints, start etc compared to a normal distribution of the actual category, and compare this to the flat, more relaxed sections of the race. this would show the performing above the normal power distribution of the category on these tougher sections, and below on the easier parts. currently these two numbers allow for an average that is close to or under the cat limit. zwift can do this, imo, they just dont want to. why? maybe they have and simply too many are cheating and they need to keep these folks interested, would they leave the platform if they were disqualified? whereas us that are struggling and losing to cheats, are still here.
I think you tried the FRR series, Max? Can't remember exactly but I seem to recall you doing a video. Regardless, they had nine (?) mens categories with GC, polka dot and sprint, but even that is being further refined now to introduce compound score (related to five-minute power) in order to define boundaries. The issue with having so many categories is you need a lot of buy-in from the consumer. Zwift's own race series' tends to be for the casual and it would be just too unwieldy to spread the riders any further. I think if we want more accurate competition then more individual organizations need to control competitions in the same way the sterling FRR group does. I don't blame anyone for not wanting to, though. The amount of whinging on the group discord was biblical.
The fastest rider is the person who wins a race, not necessary the guy who puts out the highest W/kg. There needs to be a variety of races, flat hilly, long etc. Applies in real life and Zwift. Agreed there ought to be a few more hilly races on Zwift.
A points system I think will work points to get your cat
Is zwift cats all about zftp ? , I am lighter weight C Cat can do 3.2w/kg ,some people in C are at 3.5w/kg
Same here, I never get close to winning
I would like to see longer races like 1-2 hours in length... Also on stage races with multiple stages would like to see the winner based on all the stages like in real life stage racing.
I’m sure someone will jump in here but I think there are some good stage races already. FRR is one and I think there’s an ETape du Zwift coming up too which is a stage event
For me those kind of races are like TT you just put Max watts and there is not so much strategy a good way to improve. Nice race by the way, solid effort.
It’s just a fully hard effort, not much down time
Just talking in general. Winning or getting to the podium is very hard and for most ppl unreachable. That's it, no difference than in real life. Most ppl are not winners (but can still be extremely good) and will never be. I've seen an endless number of videos where ppl after a few months of zwifting think they are podium material and anyone who leaves them in the dust is A a cheater or B a sandbagger or C both. Same symptoms like +90% of ppl (men in particular) believes they drive better than the average.
In outdoor roadraces or running events, I don't see most ppl at the startline thinking they will/could/should win the race, but in Zwift it seems a majority thinks they should win, unless it was for those darn sandbaggers/cheaters. For me it's obvious. If I meet a very strong rider, I'm dead meat.
- This is the way
This is the way indeed. And its exactly why i line up every Monday night to get my ass kicked
Only way to get better, fight the stronger. If we were lions, we would be dead. In Zwift, we can just try harder/smarter than last time. For your not superlong zwift journey, you have improved and advanced at an incredible speed. 👏👏👏
They need to scrap the >250w ftp for Cat A. 60kg rider would have to have a 4.5w/kg to go over that. Makes the category way too wide all the way from 3.2w/kg
I’m an avid zwift racer in A cat. I absolutely love zwift, but as I’ve come to realize that are end of the day, a lot of the competition is more than likely cheating. Either height/weight doping, sticky watts, sandbagging, power manipulation, etc. zwift really has no way to sort it all out. I can’t count the number of times I’ve been beat my a 50+ year old doing 6wkg for 30 mins and also doing a 1200 watt sprint. Ok sure
One thing that you haven’t taken into consideration is rider weight and watts. Take a look at the weight of riders doing the bulk of winning in D-B, they’re mostly heavy 80+ kg riders. They’re putting more watts on the ground and Zwift disproportionately favors watts. That’s why you’ll see a guy win with lower w/kg than other riders. Check his weight and I’ll bet he’s a large rider. At 61kg I couldn’t compete in the C class and got bumped up to B based on w/kg simply by trying to stay with much larger riders doing a lower w/kg. Certainly raw watts win over w/kg but not at the difference present in Zwift physics. That’s the real problem with Zwift racing.
Hahahaha! Im an A just! I get crushed by C,B & completely smoked by middle to upper A.
I think in essence what your saying is there are too many sand baggers. I’d agree 👍
Haha not quite- I just think that there might be riders who are able to do more than they realise and a longer climb will ultimately show them that they can put down big numbers
Not the Volcano KoM - far too many Zwift events go up this, particularly recently. Gran Fondo series, TdZ, L'Étape have all used this. Need something else. In terms of 'mountain' climbs, there are too few routes using the mountain without the stupid radio tower wall.
Well the Zwift Games is going up the Alpe next week so I think I got what I wished for.
Every Zwift games race I’ve done so far has had 250+ riders so we’ll see who has the minerals to do the Alpe at the risk of being bumped up 😏
Does zwift detect e bike usage?
No
Scrap the categories. When you line up irl nobody gets sorted into groups of w/kg. Just enter cat a races. Your cycling will improve.
Your totally right. Too many A riders sitting in the bunch in a B Cat race and then smashing the watts when necessary and never doing more than 3-4 minute efforts so aren't being bumped up into A Cat
I love the hard racing- cos it pushes me, but the odd race with a bigger climb will clear out the Cat ⚖️
same in all cats
How many calories did you burn on this ride
Hmmm think the race was about 35 mins and 570 odd kcals
Why not a points system, like real world amateur cycling?
What Route is this
The Muckle Yin
What top B, challenging for a win in B cat, wants to be coming in at the back of the pack in an A race? Us mid cat Bs strive to be As because we don’t win top B races and it therefore, becomes our goal instead. Those top Bs don’t strive to be As because they want to win. The equations allow this to happen and to be fair, it must be difficult to get them right. However, apart from habitual winners, which hopefully a race based cat system will sort, the equations are probably not far off. The issue for me is why many A cat races struggle to get many riders. Is this because the top B cat riders know how to avoid A cat or because lower end A cat riders don’t race because they don’t want to finish minutes down on the black belts?
Cat B hitting 3 on north squrr is insane.
Yeah the front guys must have been super close to 3 mins
I made the “Cat B” comment that kicked off the chatter. 3:03 @ 5.4 w/kg (377 watts) for me up Sgurr Summit North. I was just on the wrong end of the selection on the South climb and lost the lead group. I’ve won some Cat B races, have a handful of podiums, quite a few top 10’s, and I’ve dabbled in Cat A (but get dropped half way through the races). This was the first Cat B race I’ve ever lost the lead group in. Maybe not my best day, but sheesh.
Maybe indieVelo?
if someone podiums X times (3? 5?), they move up. easy peasy
its ok bro been seeing people doing 5wkg the whole ride for almost 80 miles.how impossible is that right?zwift is just so broken😂😂
Just use past scores and based on inscriptions (200!?!?!) Just split automatically into.several parallel races. Every Fortnite style game do this
I kinda agree with you but I don't think it's a solution to the problem. The people who want to stay B will just not race.
My goal as a cyclist is to get better. I've done some PR attempts lately on Epic KOM and on this week's ZRL course I did a all out effort that just pushed me over de edge to A, but barely. All this, without ever winning a B cat race. I'm usually near the front but never won.
Now I'm A, I'll will most likely never win a race. That's OK those, still have goals in those races.
Anyway. I'm not sure what the solution is in terms of categories. A ELO system sounds great, or maybe we just need more categories. But that might lower number of riders per race too much. It's a hard question to answer.
I don’t think there’s too much of a problem, the bigger issue I might imagine is that there aren’t enough Cat A riders, so those races aren’t as populated and entertaining.
I love Cat B racing because you can jump in a prime time race and get destroyed or you can jump in a smaller race and have half a chance
can you be a cat b pro?
The problem with Zwift is that tall people are penalized and weight is penalized so a Cat C rider who is 55-60kg and 160cm will out climb me and be able to sprint whereas I, a low Cat B rider who is 185cm and 85kg would never make it up this climb to even compete for the stage.
I am 188cm, 86kg and did the Sgurr Summit North in 3:02 in this race. You just have to train more and put down the watts required. Needed 450w average to get it done. Do a lot of Zone 2 training combined with some intense Vo2Max + some intense efforts up Alp Du Zwift, and you will get there eventually. You also have to be mentally prepared to accept the pain, and refuse to be dropped. On the flats and downhill we have the advangage of being able to recover more than the light riders.
The problem is that the Zwiftpower categories are the worst way to categorize riders. No racing organization categorizes bike riders like this. Zwift needs to start over and make the categories performance based, like every other bike racing organization . I’m 49 yrs old with a ftp of 4.3w/kg and until a yr ago I was forced into A category, I’m not a pro rider who belongs on the same start line as the same people who race the esports world championships, that happened often. I’d be a cat 4 racer in real life at best. We should all be contacting Zwift and asking them to actually fix this problem.
Just been promoted from B to A in the last few weeks after being what is probably classed as a top end B. Its a difficult one to manage, I'm 91kg with a 20 min power of 410 watts/395 FTP so flat B races were fairly steady. But the moment I hit a long climb, I really struggled. Now in A its even harder, but I'm doing ok. I finished 25/107 in this race in A last night but wow did I have to suffer
kudos Scott for pushing yourself in A even though you could get away sandbagging in B
Problem are the sandbaggers who intentionally hold back their effort to stay in the category where they can win races or people who weightcheat.
I think weight cheats are worse than people who race and have a 100% punch for the sprint.
Sometimes it’s hard for Zwift to work out what someone’s true power is if they spend most of their time riding groups in races
Cat B Solution: Get Gud
Until zwift abandon their nonsensical height = drag assumptions nobody is going to take it too seriously
I dont know the in's and outs of how they work out drag and resistance, i do like doing races where its not my natural ability because it allows me to loose and then not be too bothered because its only esports and i can just go to the kitchen and get dinner.
People will dodge them
Yeah I think people will always be inclined to avoid being bumped up- but ultimately if Cat B keeps getting better then the system will work as these races get faster and more competitive
I ride Zwift on my Kickr bike not to race, but to stay fit for the outdoor riding season. I enjoy watching your videos, but I don't share your passion for racing, so you and your fellow Cat B riders' complaints about "sand-baggers" is lost on me, mostly because it all just seems a bit silly to me, like getting upset about Fantasy Sports. That being said, I am a higher-end Cat C Zwift rider (FTP 3.2 W/kg, 230 W absolute) which puts me squarely in the middle of the pack of all riders on Zwift that ride regularly (I'm going by the average AdZ times). I don't think there is a good solution to this particular problem, as there will always be cheating in sports, and the cheating is worse in this type of virtual situation.
Just to say, I honestly don’t mind, I’m under no illusion that there aren’t a million better riders than me, this race just happened to have a lot of people commenting mid race about it and as part of the Zwift community I like being part of the discussion.
I’d be more upset if prime time races ended up being 20 riders who are all exactly the same. It’s better to have big fields and being beaten by other riders encourages me to keep training.
But I’m also happy to share my thoughts on the convo and be part of the discussion
With 200 entrants, your chances of winning are always going to be pretty small.... Competitive sport innit.
Yeah which i absolutely love. Helps me level-up
@@thewattlife
It's a tough gig mentally. You've achieved a phenomenal level of fitness but on a world wide scale, which is what Zwift is, you're getting your arse kicked. It shows the geometric progression in the upper echelons of sport and how utterly high quality it is.... Which isn't immediately apparent when I'm sitting on the sofa with a beer and crisps telling Federer how to hit a forehand!
Anyway, nice channel. Good work.
ha that made me laugh
I’d like to politely disagree, Max :) nothing wrong with the categories.
Categorisation is based upon 20 min power/FTP so most racing generally favours those with good 1 min - 5 min power where it is not limited. To be competitive you need a well rounded power curve and strong ability to punch.
If someone who should be cat A wants to sit and kick that’s fine by me. I’m the one getting the best value out of the work out/race!
Maybe the solution is to categorise by 10 mins power for smaller “crit” races
@Matt-TTho, this was the old method of categorization, the new Category Enforcement looks across your entire power profile... Its quite hard sometimes to actually determine how close you are to a category boundary these days
You A) use the term CatB pro. B) don’t understand different power profiles. C) think you are much better than actually are.
I get you are just making content that will get interacted with. But man it’s an annoying pov.
Wow commented before the end. Clearly you have zero understanding of aerodynamics and riding outside.
An actual LOl for lack of understanding
lol always happy to chat. But you explain nothing about what you are actually referring to here…
@@thewattlifethere’s a lot to unpack here but let’s start with two things.
1) you seem to think riding the category FTP cap should get you a lot farther than it does. It’s about how and when you use your power. That is called race craft. Hiding in the wheels conserving energy is a trait that is celebrated at world tour level. Cycling is more than just a physical challenge and you would do well to investigate more of that side of it.
2) Riding IRL will result in similar groupings because the benefit of drafting is so huge. I don’t understand how you believe this is a zwift issue, perhaps just research how often world tour breaks are successful.
Surely the issue is, that IRL if you are successful in cat 4 you will gradually move up the categories until you end up in a category racing riders of a similar ability, whether that's cat 3 or elite/pro. However on Zwift you can win every race you ride and not get promoted as long as you stay within the allotted power zones. @@Cat5neopro
@@Cat5neopro haha that’s what I was saying too and than got the answer that it’s strange people with low w/kg wins races. Well maybe because they are smarter. I’m leading a top tier eSports team and now teaching our ladies how to behave in races. We ride together and I inform them what to do. On 120 riders she got a 32th spot and still in the 45-men leadgroup just by racing smart (like outside) but people here don’t really understand. If they are better they must be sandbagging, I checked a video of such a complainer today, in l’etape he was dropped after 2min into a flat ride (probably because he’s a light rider 🙃 )… I can only say train harder and stop moaning.
Caleb Ewan won a race this year averaging 187W ! But did 1 min 12w/kg ;)
In a Perfect world we would love to create a Course that would suit our Style/Age/Weight/Height so that we could Win, or not get Dropped 😂… I had commented before that Zwift bumped Me into the B’s… WELL at 66+, and 75Kilos, and 183cm my Life on Zwift now Sucks! I’m not part of the DONT GET DROPPED CYCLING Group… I’m now a part of I can BHO ( BarelyHangOn)… So for sure, I now pick and choose my Races wisely until I hopefully get downgraded back to the C’s 🤞👍🚴♀️🚴♂️🚴♀️🚴♂️