Is the Ryger Engine Shite?
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- čas přidán 8. 09. 2024
- In this video we finaly take a look at the Ryger engine. The future of 2 stroke engine?
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Nice one! This Ryger deal has been going on for years. Never any proof just ridiculous claims. If there really is something to it their PR department really screwed up big time. Most people in the community are just sick of it by now...
Hey dude - hows it going with the family? All good I hope!
The Workshop All good, thanks for asking! Congrats on 20k(well 21 by now...) btw!
Cheers dude, but they're only numbers - great to hear it. First xmas will be fucking awesome!
For what its worth, they have won a karting race with it.
The biggest problem is what Matt is saying, I am too still waiting for the details on how this works,
They promised already a few times to explain all, but they still have not.
I only have a seen photo of a weird piston. but we cant tell if that photo is the actual ryger engine.
www.rgv250.co.uk/forums/uploads/post-3047-0-16073700-1453279039_thumb.jpg
@@gps4l184 I created negative pressure
The only 2-stroke that is actually efficient is called a 'compressor'!
The fact there is virtually zero information on this amazing motor says something. I have built a new 125 cc engine that make 68 hp.....it burns gas
I'd like to know how you "expand" that lower ring to insert the piston. Compression rings are compressed at installation, how do they expand the lower ring? Taper on the piston? Must be
Condensed oil must mean... it is oil without gasoline. Oil to rings is probably with oiling holes in the back of the ring groves. Those bottom ports are always connected to above the piston so as not to get oil from below into the combustion cylinder. The fuel could be direct injected as with the E-tec to keep the fuel out of the exhaust. So the benefit is the good lubrication maybe with plain bears, maybe more durable than needle bearing. Nice broad torque band, amazingly broad for a 125cc with 65hp. It reminds me of the hp graph of the turbo Suzuki 125 street bike engine, (some very common 1000cc car turbo, as the funny author name is a suggestion), would be great if only an expansion chamber necessary. The crankcase is not used for transfers port breathing.. so that could increase efficiency of transfer pumping, and possibly more hp. The lower oil control ring and two compression rings is the same number of rings on 4 strokes, with the added benefit of non-piston tilting, so slightly less piston friction losses, and better ring sealing and life. Also, could add a oil cooling jet to the bottom of the piston, so that would allow for a leaner mixture before the piston got too hot. As 2 stroke cart guys know, leaning the mixture is a good but dangerous dance. Maybe a paid road trip for a video of dyno runs/cart runs, interview?
Quite a chunk of cyclinder head on the exhaust side, if they are some how blocking ahead of the downward squish pushing fresh gas throught the ports that then it could theoretically create extra compression .......nees to split one.
But there is definatly soemthing going on exhaust side
To be honest I don't think it matters how good or bad this engine is, for a price tag that insane I really can't see this catching on. Especially if they're this secretive about it, cause I know I like to have at least a basic understanding of what I'm buying and I assume it's the same for quite a few people.
One advantage they claim is that because the intake charge has not been swirled around the crankcase it is cooler. This is good news, still puzzling over various claims and why have we not heard of these engines winning events....
Maybe the "condensing lubrication" is something that gets vaporized by the heat in the chamber and then condenses on the exhaust before going to the outside air.
To end the story, yes it was a hoax. Their weapon of choice, to sue every channel that offends there product. Not the messenger, but the channel that publicates otherwise.
Interesting stuff Matt... the stepped piston is really an old design... I did watch some videos of a kart Ryger and the thing seems to haul ass... I don't get how they can call it an environmentally friendly engine though when it's clearly puking unburned hc's out the pipe. All carburated 2 strokes have the issue.. I mean it's a pretty hard thing to do... perfectly push out all the combustion gasses and replace them with a new fuel /air mix and not spill any out the pipe.. One of my favorite 2 stroke designs is the Ricardo Dolphin.. I like the uniflow concept because it seems like it spills less fuel... and is has the ability to run lube in the crankcase. Ricardo designed the engine in 1904 when he was just a teenager.. it was inspired by Dugald Clerk's earlier design. The Dolphin was used in boats and also a car was produced. The engine was renowned for it's low end torque. As far as I'm aware the Atkinson Utilite' of 1892 was the first 2 stroke to inject fuel after the exhaust port was covered. Here's some video of my crude Dolphin copy... I wanted to make one since as far as I'm aware there are no running examples.. as you can hear it idles pretty smooth. czcams.com/video/0oG2RSe3P20/video.html
40nm, 29.5 ft lb for a .125L engine. That sounds extremely ambitious for a torque figure. I've normalized 4-stroke engines to 82 FtLb/liter naturally aspirated for 30% net efficiency per cycle. At 10:1 compression, ideal everything, is supposed to be 50% efficiency. I'll have to see it to believe it.
Agents of oblivion, cosmic dancer. Nice choice for intro!
YEs sir!
I like the way you didn't totally throw the design out the window, but just pointed out the problematic points. Especially the power number.. I'm also wondering.. square engine supposed to go 30000rpm?
I mean 30000rpm... that's about where most of the model nitro-methane engines have their max rpm.
Would be cool if you could come back to that engine when there's new information!
Like I said the 30,000rpm can be achieved it does doesn't last long, and part of the testing - don't know why but there ya go........
yep
I like 4 strokes because I always feel like they are not ticking time bombs because of their lubrication. That said I like this but it still fails in many aspects that a 2 stroke has. And they claim mad hp but it should be less because you have the oil pump or splash system adding friction right... I do like the idea and if they gain reliability with the same hp am sold
It would be extremelly interesting to see a comment of Luc Foekema about this video.
I was in contact with him last month.Sent me some of the pictures etc through FB
well, more rings more surface to transfer hea i guess.
maybe since the piston moves in a more linear fashion they manage higher combustion , better heat transfer can sortha help there too..
but a heavy piston is quite counterproductive towards efficiency specially when they say its gona rev more.
i don't think this is a good engine setup to be honest.
Seems like the only catch is if it had a service manual it would probably have a top end servicing time of about 1 hour.. If you could make a practical/reliable 2 stroke with that much power KTM would have probably done it by now honestly..
I saw your video with the two engineers trying to fix the 2 stroke emissions and they ended up just making a 4 stroke. I still don't get how a supercharged, non crankcase breathing 2 stroke would be more expensive than a 4 stroke. To me, a a supercharged, non crankcase breathing 2 stroke would be perfect. Also, you could design it to have extra boost for no extra cost.
This is why. You have a supercharged 2 stroke.
This does 1 thing. You stop burning oil. You are still losing fuel through the exhaust and who knows if this will pass emissions?
Now you have other issues.
1) Cost - superchargers are fucking expensive
2) weight - superchargers are heavy
3) fueling. How? Carbs - then you have throttle response issues, or add a fuel pump etc
4) Go injection and the cost of the pump, sensors and injector
5) You have to make things taller to fit it all in. Just like the ryger
That's why
Interesting idea, instead crank compression it is done by piston side. But too complicated piston. Piston must be probably with nicasil coating or other hard wearable material that can withstand thermal expansion and not crack. There will be serious problems with piston overheating...
The pretty same can be achieved by root screw compressor on intake and eliminate piston crank compression and direct injection. Yes compressor will have less power, but wider powerband.
Max rev limitation is for Ryger and regular 2T the same (piston break and bearings).
I doubt that Ryger hat less friction because piston rings in BDC are near "barrel rings". Piston is way bottom and there must be some support for piston (from sleave?), because piston will tilt and quickly wear.
The chart says they made the 65hp at ~11,700 RPMs. That implies putting well above atmospheric pressure into the cylinder before the compression stroke. If they've somehow managed that, then it is a pretty slick motor. I don't really see there being enough volume in their little squish chamber to make that happen, but what do I know. Either they are and its the most compact super charger yet, or the chart is BS.
The swamp Germans are really clever. They would say RY(clear the flem out your throat)ER. Its like the Ducati of 2 strokes. I bet they make it work. Long dark winters, lots of time to engineer.
haha swamp germans....
Thanks Matt!
Seems too good to be true.
10:46 Hey! I asked about this around 6 months ago.
It doesn’t look like it is an exceptionally superior design to the degree that it would offer that kind of HP without them talking about the new science they have put into the materials that make it possible. As you said Matt, those are some bloody big numbers they are claiming. A little engine like that would have to be amazingly strong to withstand those forces. Why no mention of the metallurgy by this company? It seems to me that the claims are fishy.
there may be a proprietary coating on the cylinder and rings. there are advances in anti-friction coatings that enable high heat and rpm stresses and still last long. that can be the only reason so secret about details.
I like the piston idea, maybe it weighs less than a regular straight 1?
I wonder if they do the same thing as the F1 stuff with the cross drilled pistons, just feed oil to the piston rings from the "wrong" side? They probably need an oil nozzle frantically spraying the piston to cool the exhaust side of the piston anyways.
edit: I wouldn't be surprised if they managed to get up to 60-65 hp, people have gotten 125's up to 40hp no problem. They're just not usable because they rev to high for any engine longevity and their powerbands are shit.
Interesting video will it save 2 strokes not if it smokes
The Dutch guys have been on the smoke!
Hi
Being a boring old fart I sat down and played with some numbers and yes indeed it would have to turn at 30800 rpm to consume enough air to produce 65 horsepower assuming 100% volumetric efficiency of which I'm sure would be greatly reduced at those speeds
What do you think
Yes Marcus. According to Blair the port time/area would need to be enormous for 30,000 rpm. The direct gasoline injection, opposed piston engine I'm building has huge ports for a theoretical 22,500 rpm max at a 32mm stroke and 23.25 m/sec piston speed. the port height is a whopping 20mm, or almost 2/3rd stroke. I expect to run it at a more sensible 17m/sec maximum though, which equates to 16,452rpm BMEP equates to 20.61 bar and 361.6BHP as the capacity is 477cc's with forced induction at 3.1bar. No tuned exhaust system and a linear torque curve anticipated. Bore is 70mm.
verry verry intresting but why the didn't make a video of the engine. It will make it ten times better so you can see it run and see the go cart go like in a race
Why cant they make some parts out of titanium alloys to help prevent things like over heating and warping
Like what for example?
Could you start a "engine roast series"? You pick a bike as relivent or irrelevant as you'd like and just tear into it.
A YZ80 does about 10-11,000 RPM and produces around 25 HP, a YZ125 does about 11,500 RPM and produces around 38 HP. These engines don't last long at all when they are run like that, this thing might make 65 HP at 30,000 RPM... for about five seconds.
Condensed lubrication???.. Sounds like grease to me. Also I wouldn't trust that the primary compression is any good. That part looks suspect to too much trans port velocity.
However, I do see a few mods that could be incorporated. Put those in and you,d have a hellfire of an engine.
Was thinking about it and I suppose it depends on what materials are being used for the piston (weight wise)... Maybe they have gone the complete opposite with the piston being coated opposed to the cylinder (nikasil or something slippy ie; teflon ?) to reduce friction against the seal faces, I also wonder what the seals/rings are made of. (some funky shit)
Also depends on what they have used for bearings, ceramic would be the way to go if you wanted to produce HP and RPM to those values, maybe this is why the thing is so expensive, if the production costs are stupidly high...
I might just buy one out of curiosity to find out................... like fook !!
PS, where's the boy gone, you got him gimped up Matt ??
"Maybe they have gone the complete opposite with the piston being coated opposed to the cylinder (nikasil or something slippy ie; teflon?)"
- heat is the problem here. Pistons are exposed to the highest temps in a 2 stroke with no real direct cooling. Covering it in an insulator is not a good idea.
The other issue is that coats resist wear, not stop it. Most components rely on oil as the load carrier and not coating. Coating are used to extend the life of something not be the only line of defence. Will do a video on this though, good point.
"ceramic would be the way to go if you wanted to produce HP and RPM to those values, maybe this is why the thing is so expensive,"
- Same thing with ceramic bearings, they are more wear resistant and harder. They have a lower load capacity than metal bearings and are much more susceptible to thermal shock from temperatures increasing and decreasing. This can cause internal stress and lead to cracking. People seem to think that ceramic bearings can 'go' faster which is bollocks.
Good point on the bearings and yea your right, didn't think of the thermal shock factor, maybe being a sealed crank to an extent it might be cooler ?
And what you done with that boy ??
He's sleeping (in the gimp box)
I just went and had a look at the website and the thing about the motor that jumped straight out to me was that there are no cooling fins on the motor. 65hp at 25-30% (generous) efficiency and there's not enough heat going into the block to need ANY cooling????
Its water cooled i believe
Wow. The port time/area seems way too small for the claimed power and rpm. I wonder what the claimed BMEP is? The crossflow port layout doesn't impress me either. Imagine the mixing and short-circuiting that must occur! My 2.5 cc model engine turns 37,000 rpm, but the piston speed is only 17.3 metres/second. Theirs would be a ridiculous 54 metres/second at 30,000rpm. Lubrication would be a nightmare at those piston speeds and the piston acceleration would be around 168,750 g.
"Wow. The port time/area seems way too small for the claimed power and rpm. I wonder what the claimed BMEP is? The crossflow port layout doesn't impress me either."
- the example on the board isn't their design, its an example so not to be taken literally - as I said, I don't know the actual design that is in the engine for sale. This is just what i got from the patent.
I believe its close but how close? Who knows......
Quote from the patent: " Oil spray present in the crankcase can easily reach the piston, condense and penetrate, via the access opening, the plurality of channels due to the pressure in the crankcase, such that a small amount of oil is fed to the top seal ensuring proper sealing and lubrication of the piston relative to the cylinder wall. " Patent number EP20150179826 on Espace.
The same as I read - this doesn't tell you anything even with the illistrations. If the compression rings are receiving oil then the entire cylinder wall is.
This means that the ports will 'scrape' some of thoil off and it is then in the air flow. These means that the oil will burn hence the system is not a clean as they are making out.
The dyno graph doesn't have units on the axes and also has two plots, one much bigger than the other and no information about what either of them mean, so it's impossible to draw any conclusion. But since a Honda RS125R makes 44HP and that's running on the edge of blowing up then 60HP looks unlikely.
LOL what - the dyno plot does have units??? From there website -
"A little explanation concerning this graphic, The red line is the Ryger
special and the yellow one is from the standard version. The lower ones
are the torquelines."
the plot
rygerengine.com/wp-content/uploads/est-test.jpg
I stand corrected said the man in the orthopedic shoes.
I heard they can rev it up to 17k that’s maybe why they make insane power?
I can't do much research right now because im taking a shit and a nap in a moment. But even searching it in dutch and (hopefully) more accurately translating it i haven't found much of anything. Even in the first forum people dont realy believe or trust this engine.
looks like they are focused on developing new piston sealing and shape, and different way of lubricating. interesting. we'll see if they can make a viable engine out of it or have fuck all bcs every joe will want to stay with known simple and cheap platforms
have you seen this engine on anything ? if so what was you opinion ?
No I haven't - but it's for sale - I'm waiting to see if I can find any more info on it
Would that mean the piston is nikasil coated or something as it is having a ring/seal passing over its surface similar to a ring does in its bore, and how would the tolerances work out??
Why would the piston be coated?
@@dirtygarageguy .. what would the lower/case ring be made of as you dont have a piston ring running in a plain alloy bore..
With working models like that , you would be a shoe in for Blue Peter presenter if it was still going
Hi do you Kno I've designed allot of new engines some have housing fixed seals like this Ryger. They are not patented patent pending. But there are so many the funds are not there. Will you review one of them since it is a dual piston engine
Hay, you should do the Liquid Piston engine.
Already done - just need to edit and upload
@@dirtygarageguy Can't find the Liquid Piston video on your channel. Could you give me the link?
65hp is SO HIGH......stupid high. My methanol 141 kart engine didn't make 60.
30k rpms.....don't believe it. The piston velocities are WAY over the speed of sound. I think 21k you are approaching the speed of sound with a 54mm stroke. Until I see one of them on another dyno......bla bla bla bla. $7900. HOLY SHIT....
Dont really care about the HP... can always just spin it faster for a bigger HP figure, what kind of torque curve does it have?
rygerengine.com/wp-content/uploads/est-test.jpg
Do you know if that is 40ftlbs or newton meters
Pretty tiny power curve 9k to 12.5k
but can you put a turbo on it!
Anybody know what song the intro is?
Question is ...is it possible for a 125 to shift enough air to make 65 horsepower at a speed low enough to be believable
he he is that rgv when ya drunk
Cant see this engine putting out almost 70hp. Its just not possible in my opinion. But will be glad to be proven wrong.
Theres no fucking way thats making 65 hp are they on drugs
Oil sprayers?
If this was the case then it would end up in the air stream and burn
sounds like the dutch have been doing too many hours overtime in Amsterdam
the bulge is the transfer port area
Bulge???? LOL I meant band - not bulge - because............ I'm a moron - hence the picture
I'd love to see this engine at 30k rpm :D
stonecraft98 behind a pane of lexan
With mother on speed dial lol
has anyone bought one of these? if so tell us about it
At 30000rpm the engine probably would last about 34 seconds
30,000rpm?? 90% of 2T failures occur at high revs haha. what happens when a piston lets go at that speed? in high gear... you better have life insurance or full protective gear lol
nothing goes wrong ... if you are working with advanced materials that are not available for free sale ... materion.com
65 (or did I read 70?) hp fro m a 125? Lol, pull the other one.
And, 30K revs? They should have called it the Tyger, not Ryger (means 'Heron' btw)
Hey Matt, this site might interest you: www.pattakon.com/ . I spotted it in this thread: www.f1technical.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=10966 when I was looking for info on the Ryger engine some time back.
Awesome - will take a look - cheers dude!
Shall I post some links to the Ryger engine internals in the comments or are you saving those for your future vid ?
show me what you got! Or email or facebook me
I already did 2 months ago!lol We had an exchange of messages via CZcams private messages :D
But your name isn't dwhxyz is it? LOL
Don't tell us what you're trying to show us, just show us.
Link to: 53hp Turbo TZR125 (2stroke) 53hp @ 11 Krpm czcams.com/video/Oxj_OAb5bqk/video.html
1) I've been in contact with these guys and they're not so forth coming about their set-up or testing
2) Even if it is true that's with a turbo
Ryger dyno numbers could be true IF it's boosted. The turbo TZR125 got 53hp. It is within reason that more boost and better use of boost, or intercooler could get 65hp. The 30k rpm obviously is a super super short stroke theatrical engine, not this dyno motor.
I wouldn't want a bike with that kind of powerband. Idle has no torque, then suddenly the meat of the band. Granted this is for a race application. And is it just me that thinks a powerband from 8,000 to 13,000 seems kinda small considering anything under 8,000 is unusable?
phillip galas for kart racing it makes sense. Thats about all the Rev range you use. The power numbers sound like "theoretically lossless" numbers IE fake as fuck.
Puffalupagus360 agreed. It looks like a calculated chart while ignoring limiting factors, namely going twice the popular limit of piston speed.
bullshit engine zenoah has a solution and direct injection also is clean
Think about their statements of that the engine isn´t depending on the pipe to make power.
And then you think about the pumping displacement, it is actually a lot less than cylinderdisplacement due to the 'rod' going down through the sealplate are stealing displacement.
So, pipe isn´t important they state, well i have to say it sure the fuck is.
It has to be working throughout the whole usable rpmband they show on that excelfantasy dynosheetpaper.
And as a twostroketuner we all know that a pipe don´t add power in that very wide rpmband.
Nothing else than sales hoax.
what a crock no way your gonna get 65hp from a 125. maybe with nitromethane lol.I dont see 30k rpms either