Fitting Stay Alive Capacitors at Chadwick Model Railway | 116.
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- čas přidán 12. 11. 2020
- Fitting a Stay Alive Capacitor at Chadwick Model Railway.
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Perfect timing, I can watch this while ‘doing’ my work so I’m not bored out of my mind.
Your not a surgeon are you Dan?
Same, home school sucks
@@edwardmortimer2150 It sure does
@@ChadwickModelRailway 0
Miniturisation (spelling??) over the years is so helpful. I tried this about 30 years ago with some resistors, caps, diodes etc from my junk box and no dcc (what!!!!) and just the homemade 12V DC transistor controller. Yep it worked but the cover didn't fit. The capacitor itself was 40mm long by about 15 mm in diameter. !!!!! I gave up. Now my layout is down and I am looking at moving to DCC on a new layout. Chip numbers etc are going to be hard to remember. Thanks Charlie for your videos. I couldn't understand what "stay alive" was until I saw you fitted one. My first meeting at a club is this week. Apprehensive to say the least.
Good luck Phil, clubs can be difficult for the first couple of visits. Regards Charlie
As someone new to the hobby, I struggled with running problems from the start… especially over points. Had stay alive Capacitors fitted to my locos and all those problems are a thing of the past, and I can actually enjoy running sessions.
Clearly a good move CB. A lesson for us all. Regards Charlie
@@ChadwickModelRailway indeed, worth their weight in gold I say 😁
US modeler here. I feel stay alive capacitor packs are essential for sound units. Sound quickly goes from being a good thing to a bad thing if the sound keeps cutting out while switching a seldom used spur. While there are some downsides, they seem minor issues compared to the huge upside of having them in your locomotives. Having one in a small sound equipped switch engine working a complex industrial trackage is a night and day difference versus not having a stay alive. I've been making my own custom capacitor packs for older decoders that do not have dedicated plugs or connections for stay alive packs. There is a lot of documentation online about where you can make the connections. And it really does make for a world of difference on the older decoders.
I think you’re bang on the money FF. I need to go through my loco fleet one of the time and upgrade to decent stay alives . Regards, Charlie
It's not just Bachmann not marking their pins. Last night I fitted sound to a Roco, Heljan and an MCK loco. NONE of them had any pin numbering. I guessed the first 2 right but had to swap the last one around. Not bad considering the odds. Now the MCK runs perfectly, the Roco runs but has no sound (could be the speaker) and the Heljan doesn't run at all (never has before) although the sound chip is recognized and programs OK (maybe I damaged it by trying to send DCC through it without a DCC chip before). Onwards and upwards as Charlie would say... (something to look at tonight - yay). Still a great show you are putting together!
I’m so pleased that you enjoy the channel. Sadly there are very few manufacturers who produce decent technical data for us to follow! Regards Charlie
Nice to see not everyone wants to rip you off, by providing good service encourages further purchases etc at a loss to those not wanting to help. Another good quality, honest and easy to follow video.
Thanks Kev, that’s very kind of you to say so.
This is a fun watch for model railway and electronics nerd.
I suggest for help in the soldering and ensuring no dry joints get a soldering iron stand to hold the iron when not needing it. More importantly these come with a sponge so that when you start up you can steam clean your iron, even when working on a DMU! And a quick clean between each joint to remove flux residues and black gunk. Also it is better to tin the pads with a little heat, flow should be good into each corner thanks to the gold plating, you should not transfer solder via the iron as this degrades the flux
Hi John, the stand and cleaning pad are both dust out of shot. But you make some good points. Regards Charlie
Thank you Charlie for your videos, they are very interesting ! I wish they had been available 20 years ago when I was actively involved in building a swiss style HO layout, complete with two Spirals, two Reverse Loops and Lenz DCC ! Your videos have shown me just how many mistakes I made and how I could have avoided many of them. A real modeling education.
I’m so pleased that you enjoy the channel. I do try and keep it varied.
Regards Charlie
The original intent of a stay-alive was for sound decoders. Every time you hit an electrical dark spot, your sound decoder would reboot and thus play the "startup" sequence when power came back to the loco. With a stay alive, you could ride over that area, while keeping power to the decoder so it wouldn't reboot.
Yes very true. I had to do this with my original Hornby Class 08. The sound loss was dreadful.
Regards Charlie
@@ChadwickModelRailway looked to me there was a slight hesitation when power was pulled.
Charlie, When it comes to modal railways there's nothing new under the sun. In 1968 the magazine Modal Railway News had a 2-part article from Pendon Museum about their coaching stock and the problems they had with the light's flickering in the carriages.To correct this problem they were installing a Capacitor into the van part of a Brake coach. They then wired the whole " rake" upto the the brake van and cured the lighting problems. If I remember correctly the Capacitor was more industrial in size than the versions we have today.Cheers, Chris Perry.
What a great comment Chris.
Regards Charlie
In America I believe those are mostly used in large cities mostly on either coast with Chicago being the exception. Historically when they were introduced cars and buses also were introduced and allowed more freedom. So in most of America EMUs don’t exist. We model what we experienced (however I believe the PPR GG1 and the DRG Flying Goose are tres chic). Still doesn’t mean that you didn’t produce yet another stellar video. Crack on (by the way what the hell does that mean anyway). Cheers was the West side of the pond!
Thanks Ken for a US view of the subject.
@@ChadwickModelRailwayFor a short while in the 20th century we had what were called “Inter-Urbana.”’ A single car used for transporting people and goods short distances. GM (buses) drove them (no pun intended) out of business. It is still a part of American railroad history.
Hello Charles, I just went searching on "Stay Alive Capacitors For Model Railways". I was shocked at the ridiculous prices for what is a capacitor or two set on a circuit board. These components are not expensive. All they do is sit across the power supply, charge up and discharge when the power is removed, they are a passive device.
As for that company saying you can only use their brand of "stay alive" well what a croc. I would suggest any modelers out there, to consult with any fellow modelers who happen to be electronic enthusiasts or professionals who can help. I don't like seeing people get ripped off, because they are not familiar with electronic components.
A fair point SS. SA’s might be a luxury for some but for 0-4-0 modellers, they can be a life saver.
@@ChadwickModelRailway Yes, and this why if there are any modelers with electronic expertise, then maybe they can help others and save people money.
Thirty four pounds for a capacitor that costs just a few pence is just robbery, from my perspective.
@@channelsixtysix066 You can easily add simple capacitors (with a resistor and diode to limit charge current) for a pound or two. But I suspect the 3-wire stay alives you’re describing use multiple SuperCaps, which are closer to small batteries in function and are a lot more expensive. Those are switched by the third (white) wire so are not entirely passive devices. Simple capacitor stay alives are so low cost that it probably isn’t worth their while making and selling. If you need help with simple capacitor stay alives, let me know.
Charlie, Nicely explained and demonstrated. Being an old clanky any videos on electronics are much appreciated.
That’s very nice of you to say so Kevin. Regards Charlie
Another good one Charlie. I enjoy the dry, subtle humor and the info. Thanks!
Thanks Wolfpack, I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it, regards Charlie
Hi Charlie!
The thing about capacitors preventing programming was an interesting reference for me.
In the early days of DCC, capacitors used across motors to prevent EM interference, were a big problem for DCC... because they would occasionally result in a loco/unit ignoring commands from the controller in your hand.
I myself have witnessed a loco fly straight through a set of buffers on an terminus layout, and watched it sail off the end of the layout and onto the floor!!
Fortunately in that case, it was only a tiny scratch and a broken tension-lock coupling!!
As a result, it was recommended practice to remove the motor capacitors when you fitted a decoder... and there was no EM problems anyway because the decoder usually had components that didn't affect your TV, etc.
I still use this practice today!!
Incidentally, there are some very small speakers available for items like your Class 108 DMU there.
Many thanks and enjoy your day!
Laura
I'm so pleased that you enjoyed it Laura and a great comment as usual.
Stay safe. Regards Charlie
Thanks Laura, I was wondering what the basis for the capacitor “problem” was. I’m an electronics engineer just getting into this malarkey. Removing the commutation suppressor cap from the motor makes sense with PWM control, and the decoder should have suitable suppression capacitors built in already, in a position more suited to PWM control. But adding bulk capacitance (especially charge current limited capacitance using a resistor and diode) across the rectified supply shouldn’t prevent DCC from working. But I do need to study the protocol further to see if it will defeat the return data signal when a controller queries a CV value from a decoder.
Edit: I’ve been looking at the 2012 edition of NMRA standard 9.3.2, and the suggested circuits it includes for RailCom. It looks like the RailCom receiver at the booster is designed to keep the voltage developed across the tracks during RailCom transmission so low (~50mV) that it won’t forward bias the rectifiers, and therefore adding capacitors shouldn’t interfere with RailCom data if only the suggested circuits are used. *However,* the standard specifies that the decoder must work with up to 2.2V across the tracks, which makes allowance for block detection hardware in the track circuit. And this _is_ enough to forward bias the rectifiers and interfere with the RailCom data. So the upshot is, adding capacitance is _likely_ to be okay, but it’s not guaranteed to allow RailCom to work. This is likely the reason why 3-wire stay-alives exist, the third wire being used temporarily to switch off charging current to the bulk capacitor during the RailCom cutout period. This means we would need to add a mosfet to our homemade stay-alives and add the white wire. I’ll watch Charlie’s video on homemade stay-alives to see if he covers any of this…
I bought a 2nd hand 3MT last year and found out the hard way that it had a stay alive in it. I dont understand how, but the thing keeps going for around 10 seconds, sometimes more. I had a short circuit and the power cut out but the MT carried on.....and on. I quickly took it off the track and put it on the floor, and it kept on going! It's not a problem to me now as I know it's there and manage it accordingly but at the time I thought I had bought a possessed loco! Great video as usual Charlie. Thanks.
A great comment Wayne. That’s the problem with capacitors with only two cables. If you noticed mine had three, and therefore had managed to power and will stop when you hit the emergency stop button. Furthermore, you can turn down the amount of time that it will run.. Regards Charlie
what an enjoyable sense of humor.... really enjoyed this (thank you)
Thanks Kev, regards Charlie
I really appreciate the non-edited reference to notes... don’t know whether it’s the ‘professional amateur’ or the ‘amateur professional’ but it’s just right.
It’s honesty and accuracy that matter in my book (excuse the pun).
Or perhaps an enthusiastic amateur!
@@ChadwickModelRailway an enthusiastic professional amateur. And a top bloke.
Excellent video as always Charlie, and very helpful. As an engineer new to this malarkey, your videos on technical aspects of rail modelling are incredibly helpful!
Just a hint on technique for beginners (I have been soldering electronics for 45 years). Wipe the iron tip clean on a damp sponge. Tin _both_ parts to be soldered. Apply heat with the iron until the part is up to temperature, then melt solder onto the part, not the iron. Hold the tinned wire to the tinned pad, heat both with the iron and make the joint. If you need a touch more solder, add it to the opposite side of the joint to where you hold the iron, and let the solder flow through the joint towards the iron. Remove the iron and hold the wire still for a second while the solder solidifies. When you’ve finished soldering for a time, melt a little solder onto the iron tip to protect it from oxidation, but wipe that off before soldering again.
I’m so pleased you enjoyed the videos, Mark, and many thanks for your advice. Regards, Charlie
Thank you that was useful to know, hadn't thought about the need to fit the stay alives but after the explanation and demo can see the benefits
I’m so pleased that you found it interesting Chris. Regards Charlie
I don't do DCC but I find that there is always something to learn from your videos. Excellent work keep it up.
Thanks Gordon, I’m so pleased that you found it interesting. Regards Charlie
Hello Charlie! Thanks for the great video. Another one on home made stay alives would be nice indeed, thank you very much!
Then I will Certainly tackle it in a week or two. Regards Charlie
Heh I love the technical jam jar. Great for holding screws and they don;t run away like if you use a wagon.I like the glass dishes you get with Gu puddings as they're handy for paint thinners too. Lemon cheesecake for the win! Of course you have to empty them first...
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed the channel DJ. And of course lemon cheesecake! Regards Charlie
Another well put video, but way above my capabilities or understanding no matter how many times I watch it.
Well at least you enjoyed it Simon, hopefully! Regards Charlie
Been following your excellent videos Charlie and they have rekindled my boyhood love of trains. Have decided to build a layout but only have 4.5m x 2.0m so nothing to elaborate. Things have developed so the technology will be a real challenge!
It’s great to have you back on board Richard. Regards Charlie
When the scalpel came out I was waiting for the retake with a plaster on your left hand :)
Rest assured, the ambulance was on speed dial! Regards Charlie
My thought was "Charlie just said he'd put a new blade in the scalpel, and now he's cutting towards himself. Standby". 😂😂😂
🤣🚑
Charlie. Yes please would like to know more, especially as I'm starting to looking to standardise chips etc. Info, as offered, on producing a 'home made' stay alive would be most interesting and informative from my point of view, please.
Rest assured Bob, the research is coming together. Regards, Charlie
Cool....I have a few esu version clasic sound chips which are over 20 years old...still work fine..no big deal if its not a v4 v5 ...stil sound to my ears...
Nice install on the cap...
Thanks Hovermotion, I’m so pleased that you found it interesting. Regards Charlie.
Interesting video Charlie, I enjoy watching your channel especially the technical side, which is beyond some of my understanding but you make it sound really simple to do and explain it very well. Keep up the good work !
I'm so pleased that you enjoyed it LangersTrains. Stay safe. Regards Charlie
Thanks for the vid. For removing bodies I use an empty plastic milk carton. Wash it out and cut some "business card" sized pieces from it with scissors. It's quite a stout material but thinner than actual business cards which aides insertion between chassis and body. It's also sightly greasy by nature which helps things to slide against it.
It’s never easy getting these wretched things apart though. Regards, Charlie.
You stay alive forever Charlie, great informative entertainment. Love it!
You’re too kind David.
Thanks Charlie. It has been interesting even though I am not into DCC. As far as dis-assembling and re-assembling locos, I made a total bodge of a 2P when taking the body off and managed to break the wires for the front bogie pick ups.
I totally understand Don. I seem incapable of dismantling your logo without ending up with a bag of broken bits! So please don’t feel that you’re alone on this one, regards Charlie
Thanks again Charlie for another informative video. As you say it is always with some trepidation that one takes a loco apart!! Yes please, I would like some more instructional videos on fitting various chips and stay alives, as I seem to have various chips fitted to my locos. Thanks again for all your efforts.
Certainly Tony, it’s on the list.
Always enjoy your videos Charlie. Thank you.
Thank you Charles, it’s great to have you on board. Regards Charlie
One of the best tools for removing body clips is a feeler gauge. They are used for car sparkplug gaps. I normally use 2 together.
A great tip Philip. I had thought of using them. Regards Charlie
Best presentation on Keep Alives thus far! Most of my fleet have either the ESU or the TCS versions.
Glad you enjoyed it E50.
"Ah, ah, ah, ah, stay-alives, stay-alives".
Not your favourite commodity then Bill? Regards Charlie
I sense a Bee-Gees fan.
Me thinks Charlie missed the link.
🤣
Not at first Bill, bit of a Tragedy!
Hello, Charlie. I enjoy your channel very much. This is similar post, to one I just posted on your recent video.
I hope you will do another stay alive video, DUI on the Say Alive. Interested in how much capacitance you can actually install. To expand the idea would like to see rechargeable battery packs connected to the loco though an auxiliary car.
Why do batteries? Well one example I have always wanted to do is extend my layout outdoors in good weather. Batteries would be a great plus to make this happen. RC could also be used. I'm sure there will be a lot of push back from others. Just an idea, better you take the heat than me😄. Keep up the good work.
I think Clint, you’re looking for battery powered trains. There is no way that stay alive to draw that much track power and store it, I have found no solution on the web to satisfy you need. Good luck with your Hunt! Regards, Charlie
Another great one! Looking forward to more on stay alives, Charlie.
Thanks Michael, I shall revisit this subject in greater depth. Regards Charlie
Hi Charlie,
Another great, informative (and fun) video....so glad I didn't see an edit with a plastered finger after the scalpel came out!
It does strike me however, that the more advancements away from DC to DCC one goes, whilst some issues are solved new issues requiring new technologies crop up 😂 all of which leads to more complicated set ups and of course, more things to go wrong.
That being said, when it all works as it should, the results of being able to have realistic signalling and multiple trains running at different speeds and directions does bring the real life to the layout.
Really looking forward to seeing your layout progress further and see how it works in all it's glory!
Cheers,
Derek.
Thanks Derek, what a heartwarming comment. Regards Charlie
I've been building my own for a while. Works great. I use it both for lights in passenger cars, tail lights, and on decoders.
I’m clearly behind the curve on this one Doc. Regards Charlie
@@ChadwickModelRailway Since I switched to DCC, I tried to DIY as much as possible. Arduinos, servos, LEDs, resistors and capacitors.
@Strathpeffer Junction has a great video about DIY keepalives. He does it exactly like I do. czcams.com/video/S2BmPiurl-0/video.html
I fitted a Zimo MX648R which fits in the decoder square above the motor, a sugar cube speaker underneath trimming some of the components slightly to make space and a Digitrains 6-18sec stay alive in the first set of seats out of sight. Very reliable running. More stay alive flexibility with Zimo sound decoders. Enjoyed the video as always.
Thanks for letting me know Simon. If you press your Emergency Stop, does it keep going?
@@ChadwickModelRailway
Hi Charlie, I've got a Gaugemaster wireless system and yes it stopped straight away but the sound obviously kept going. I'm happy to send you pictures of the installation if your are interested.
Hi Charlie I'm using a mixture of Dcc Chips including Two dreaded Hornby TTs Chips
but as I'm on a budget if i convert a Dc ready Loco to Dcc I use Laisdcc Chips with Stay alives in both 8 pin and 21 Pin Chips for their price they all work well and give me over 5 Seconds of running time.
Will check the Timing later when i get the chance as my Layout is covered in Scenic Building. materials .I Know we never finish building.
I have now replaced my Gaugemaster Omni Chip with a Laisdcc 4 function chip with the Very Small Stay Alive in my New 08 Bachmann the performance is far better no matter how much I played with the Cv's on the Gaugemaster Dcc Chip.I can now get 6 seconds of Stay Alive straight out of the Box.
Hope this helps
A sound plan Chris.
Great video Charlie. Thinking of doing the same to all of my loco's. Just have to figure out which one for each of them. Lol.
Clearly no small task William. Regards Charlie
Hi Charlie, I am experimenting with stay Alives right now. I got mine from a young company from Florida called Model Train Technology. The difference is that these are completely DCC and you don't need to disconnect them for programming. FYI I'm not putting them in a engine but in a caboos so the lights won't flicker. Anyway Cheers, Chris
Thanks Chris, that’s useful information. Regards Charlie
I like the Gaugemaster decoder & stay Alive due to them having a plug and socket arrangement for connecting the two together (no soldering)
You’re clearly not a lover of soldering then Richard. Regards Charlie
@@ChadwickModelRailway I have to solder every day at work so try to do as little as possible at home
Now that makes sense.
thanks Charlie, another interesting video and yes, it is a pain when sound locos stall for a second and have to go through the full stiert up cycle.
regards
Gareth
I totally agree Gareth, which is what let me down this path to start with. Regards Charlie
Another great video full of info. I recently went to American O scale, their stay alive are 9V rechargeable batteries mounted in the loco.
Now that’s a great idea RR
Having only one modern loco that was DCC ready (easy fit). And a Hornby 0-6-0 DCC fitted. The rest of my locos were just DC, so I had to wire them, learnt a lot especially how not to do it, ruined a couple of decoders. But I’m better with it now, don’t know which decoders are good, bad or ugly though lol. But I’m learning. Great video though, loved how you unintentionally broke the plastic parts it’s so easy to do.
I’m so pleased that you found it interesting Barry. Yes, taking these things apart is fraught with the possibility of damaging them. Something I feel obliged to do! Regards Charlie
Where's the Bee Gee's when you want them!! Another great informative video. Always a pleasure to watch keep them coming...
Very good Barry. Not many folks would get that! I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it, regards Charlie
Hi Charlie, a most informative video on stay alive capacitors ,this as cleared up a few questions for me .A few weeks ago when making your hillside ,you placed some flexible fencing along the top edge of the rock face, you were not sure where you got them from ,just a quick line to tell you that they can be obtained from PECO, NUMBER LK -85 flexible field fencing 1080 mm long for around £5 .I do enjoy your videos and I love the humour in presenting it, look forward to the next one. Regards Kevin.
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed the videos Kevin. Yes I have also found the Peco number regarding the fencing. Regards Charlie
Another great video, thanks Charlie. You must need a steady hand for those soldering jobs
Thanks William, I do find soldering electronic circuit boards difficult.
Regards Charlie.
Very helpful Charlie. The irony is that for we steam guys the locos most likely to need stay alives are probably the smallest and least likely to have much space. So size is important. To answer your question about future videos one on Zimo would be very welcome. Also DCC Concepts - who of course also now make Rails decoders so any info on compatibility would also be welcome. And Digitrax decoders? Thanks again and keep up the good work.
I’m so pleased that you found it interesting Barry. Yes I will revisit decoders again in the not too distant future. Regards Charlie
As always, a lot of very good information given here, thanks Charlie.
From my experience:
- ESU & Zimo decoders are electrically pretty robust. Despite occasionally getting the connections wrong, I've never actually destroyed one.
- The 'joy' of 12 inches of Stay Alive on the Test Track, quickly turns to dismay when it derails on the layout and demolishes 12 inches of painstakingly made lineside scenery! Keep the distance as short as possible to just get over the 'bad bits' on the track. Remember too that, the train also 'stays alive' after you've hit the Emergency Stop on the controller.
- If you want 'fun running trains' rather than 'fun with electrical experiments' use the Stay Alive from the manufacturer of the decoder.
- you made three references to the inadequacies of manufacturer's Instructions, this "gets my goat" too. The 'Big Three' are the worst and there's no excuse for it
I’m so pleased you found it interesting Brian. Of course adjusting the amount of time that the stay alive runs is only achievable on the capacitors with three cables. I am unsure whether you are right about the stop command halting the locos progress but I will certainly check it out. Regards Charlie
Hi Charlie, great video again. It would be interesting to see you create a homemade stay-alive at some point, yes. Cheers
Thanks Edward it’s on the list, regards Charlie
Hi Charlie, some months ago I watched a video by Strathpepher Junction on how to install 'Stay alive' units on the TTS decoders, I was interested as I have some, they may be basic but are adequate for my garden layout. In the video drawings are produced to show the connection points on the chips.
I can confirm that the information is accurate as I have installed self-made stay-alive's in some of my loco's with good results, the chap who run the Junction has also shown how to make a simple Stay-alive, I used a diagram on one of DCC Concepts data sheets which used super capacitors, very effective. I do have a number of Hatton's decoders on loco's which are not going to be converted to sound and I am going to bight the bullet and have a delve into the circuitry to find where I can connect a stay-alive. Thanks once again for a very interesting and thought provoking video.
Thanks for the info Peter. I shall check out the video and save the diagrams.
Regards Charlie
Great to see you again.. as always very informative..take care, like your pause after " however" lol
I’m so pleased that you found it interesting David. Regards Charlie
Charlie yes please more info on Stay Alives please
It’s on the list John
Keep alive's do look handy.
Yes very, for poor design issues.
Hello again Charlie, yet another video where I know nothing about what is going on, it reminds me of when I would watch The Open University before the kids programs started 😅👍🏻
I seriously wondered if anyone was going to offer me slimline salad dressing with this one. Still great to watch though.
I’m sorry the video wasn’t to everyone’s taste. Regards Charlie
@@ChadwickModelRailway no, it was fine 👍🏻👍🏻
@@ChadwickModelRailway It's great to watch something that's a bit above my head, it just encourages more learning!
what a faf Charlie couldn’t be bothered personally 😂😂😂😂❤️
But this DMU was useless otherwise Robert.
Yes, home made stay alives would be good.
I've made some huge capacity versions that should take my loco nearly a metre.
It's more a just in case basis rather than really needing it.
That’s great news. Which decoders have you attached them to?
Regards Charlie
Yes to the home made stay alive please
It’s on the list Ed.
Very helpful, thanks for this. A follow up would be splendid I wonder if they produce a stay alive for my grey matter... 😀
If only David.
Hey charlie,
i have fitted sound in a couple of these DMUs now. If you were to revisit it, the best way i have found is to fit a ESU sugarcube speaker in the underframe.
When painted matte black they arent noticeable and you can feed the wires back up through the chassis to connect onto the decoder.
The speaker being outside of the bodyshell will allow it to sound much clearer aswell as not being visible.
stay alive wise - another option for ESU are the Train-O-Matic stay alives (pretty much the same as the ESU version)
They use the same 3 wire setup as the ESU powerpack and are very easy to setup with a couple CVs whilst being cheaper.
CV113 i believe set at the max (255) should give you about 3-4 seconds
The 2 wire stay alives such as lais can be used but the loco will mess about when programming which is a pain.
Remember also that for the Loksound V3.5 you need a 100 ohm speaker - difficult to find a goodun these days!
Good vid, cheers
Eric
A very interesting comment Eric. I must confess I wouldn’t mind a photo of the underside of that DMU with the sugar cube speaker fitted. Perhaps you could email me one to
Chadwickmodelrsileay @ gmail. Com.
Also what is the ESU part number for that speaker? Regards Charlie
@@ChadwickModelRailway check your facebook bud 👍🏼
Stay alives, what an emotive subject and you will get many, many comments I am sure. I have over 100 sound fitted locos, most are now Zimo equipped due in no small part to the excellent support I get from DigiTracks in Lincoln.
However, a coupe of years back I managed to blown up an ESU sound chip that had been fitted to a second hand Class 20, no idea how it happend, ESU did not want to know about repairing it, eventually I replaced the blown SMD capacitor myself. All things come in threes and not that long afterwards I managed to do the same to a Zimo sound chip that was a couple of years old. This was all caused by bad quartering on a steam standard tank. DigiTracks replaced the damaged decoder instantly for a small sum of 18 pounds and provided the correct sound file. These guys really know how to provide customer service. For that reason I got replaced all my non Zimo decoders with Zimo sound.
The Zimo decoder is quite a piece of technical "tour de force", it comes standard with a unique form of stay alive which is fully explained in their documentation but is sufficient to handle dirty track problems as long as the track is not completely filthy. So no real need then for a stay alive, however, almost all Zimo decoders come with two wires that can be attached to a capacitor. Zimo provide a capacitor but have no objection to you using your own or adding to the supplied capacitance, in facy yheir documentation provides excellent instruction on building your own stay alive. I better add here that as you know Zimo cost no more that any other reasonable sound decoder, but the facilities available within that decoder are truely outstanding. Like you I had real problems with 0-6-0 locos and shunters, so much so that I designed and built my own ultra small SMD based super capacitor Stay Alive PCB (9mm x 10mm x 2mm). This is small enough to fit anywhere, however with larger locos i found that all I have to do is simply fit a normal capacitor to the two wires provided on the Zimo and let the decoder do the rest. So far nearly three years of perfect running. I am temped with removing my supecap stay alive from a Class 08 and see how it copes.
For my Bachmann DMU fleet I have found that the Zimo 644 sound decoder fits perfectly in to the cast bay above the motor once a small amount of metal has been milled off. I then fit any stay alive capacitors low down in the entrance door space. Sometimes use four very small SMD Tants that are invisible from outside. For speakers I have standarised on Suger Cubes, they are very small but strong and can be fitted underneath the floor on the early Bachmanns without the super detailed underframe. Next week I have new Class 121 to fit Zimo soumd to and that could be a real challenge for me and my mini mill. Sometimes you have to be very invemtive with where and how you fit in all the gear. I have a number of Bachmann 2-8-0 WDs and the only place I could put the stay alive capacitors where in a double ring of 220uF SMD Tants fitted tightly arround a sugar cube speaker stuffed inside the smoke box. Hopefully they never go wrong.
So to wrap up this length waffle, I have found a need for stay alives but do believe that the features of the Zimo decoder do not make it so vital as with other decoders. Great video again, got my "Chalie Fix" for the next two weeks and it makes the lock down in southern France a little more bearable, keep churning them out Charlie, Stay safe and have a good one.
What an absolutely brilliant comment Bruce. Your trust in Zimo is very similar to mine in ESU. Reading the text I was thinking we have to meet up for a beer or a tea sometime. Right up to the point where you said you lived in France!
Stay safe mate, regards Charlie
@@ChadwickModelRailway Next time I am in the UK I'll give you a bell and a beer it is. Cheers, regards Bruce
Swann Morton. That's a new one on me. Looks more like a sword than a scalpel compared to our little Exacto blades.
I'd like to see stay alives do away with the need to power frogs altogether someday. Enjoy!
An interesting point Frank. Regards Charlie
Hi Charlie Yes a further video on stay alive with Zimo components would be most welcome as would home built ones for some older non sound chips. Keep up the good work Terry
Okay Terry, it’s on the list.
Cheers charlie you found another use for my old Sky box I think from memory theres a 25 volt cap in there.
Good luck will. I’ve got a spare skybox too! Regards Charlie
Great video, as always
Thanks Edward, it’s great to have you on board
Great vid Charlie, someone beat me to it with the "Staying Alive " Bee Fees gag. Tradgety. Regards Terry.
Sorry, but I cant think of a smug reply ...... yet.
Incredible how the hobby has evolved Charlie. I remember my first layout as a teenager, my Mum and Dad bought me a freight train set, my Grandparents bought me a passenger train set too. I put them both together to make one layout- it really was a "Mash-of-two-sets" !!!!!
Thank you Charlie. Another very useful video. My slight disappointment was that you weren’t able to use the YouChoos product as that is my preferred decoder. You mentioned the possibility of doing a video on the Zimo decoder and that option has my vote. Thanks again. Tony
Sorry Tony but as you noticed, it just wouldn’t fit. However I have now had it re-blown and it will go into my Falcon a little later, along with the YouChoos capacitor. Regards Charlie
Hi Charlie,
Always valuable to view your videos.
My setup is DC, involving several InsulFrog points. My main track layout only requires engines to move forward, despite there being four different routes that they can take, by means of adjusting the points with a pseudo random Arduino program.
I have one steam engine, which I love, but which is temperamental when crossing points. I decided to forfait its ability to go backwards, in order to enhance its ability to go forward.
To this end, I cut the positive wire to the Motor & inserted 2 (40V 1A) Schottky Diodes in series
(Pickup - + x - + Motor), this allows positive power only to go to the motor, with a voltage drop of 0.4 volts, which is not critical on my layout. I then connected 3 (16V 470μF) Tantalum Capacitors in parallel, with the positive side joined to "x", (the midpoint between the two Schottky Diodes) and the Negative side, joined directly to the Negative side of the Motor.
When put together neatly on a piece of circuit board, it makes a 25X10X5mm circuit, which is easy enough to find a home for, and will drive the engine for about 20mm.
If you feel inclined to mention this on your channel, I would be more than happy for you to do so,
Arthur
That’s absolutely fascinating Arthur. I do hope to mention it when I do my next stay alive video. Regards Charlie
I don't know about that oarticula model but some bachmann DMUs have a pop out section in some of the seats for fitting speakers but it does remove some of the seats in the middle of the coach
Thanks Daniel, but I think this one is too old. Regards Charlie
I like to put keepalives in my switchers for better slow speed running over switchers. Usually don’t need much keepalive time on the cv settings to get the job done at most I use one second.
Thanks for the info MM.
Thanks Charlie for an interesting video as always, I do enjoy your projects and often able to take some useful guidance from them. As it happens, I have very recently (a couple of weeks ago) purchased and fitted my first stay alive. James at DCC Train Automation recommended a Train-o-Matic decoder and a stay alive to go with it. It’s the first time I’ve used a product from this company, and I have to say, I’m very impressed. I fitted them into a Heljan Class 33 and the performance is perfect from my point of view. Though I am wondering in retrospect, if I did really need a stay alive in this loco, but the point of the exercise was trying to get a loco set up successfully in iTrain as I’ve been having problems with the trains that I’ve so far tried to set up using various decoders, Hornby, DCC Concepts, ESU. All with varying amounts of success (or not !). But setting up this Heljan loco in iTrain with the Train-o-Matic decoder went like a dream - text book stuff as it were, this is a bit of a personal breakthrough and so I’ll need to rethink my decoder strategy for locos that I’ve already fitted with those various other decoders in the past. And for the record, I’d be interested in seeing a video about home made stay alive for when I get around to DCC fitting my “retro” locomotives from the stables of the likes of Lima, Hornby etc. But I do agree that it’s the right way to go to combine a decoder and stay alive from a single manufacturer. For me, that’s very likely to mean Train-o-Matic, at least for now ! Oh and one last comment, why do manufacturers make it so damn difficult to attach a stay alive by wrapping the solder pads in hard plastic ? I understand why they need to wrap the decoders to insulate and protect the components (don’t have a problem with that) but there really must be a better way to be able to connect a stay alive. I see DCC Concepts are soon to offer a plug in solution, surely that’s the way forward. Or maybe manufacturers could provide a plug in point for stay alives on the loco PCB. Sorry, just one more point ! I really struggled to find enough space in the Heljan Class 33 to be able to fit the stay alive and had to cut open the plastic insulation to fold the capacitor away from the stay alive PCB to reduce the overall height. Not ideal, but otherwise it simply wasn’t going to fit ! Manufacturers please note ! Stay safe Charlie.
Great comments Bryan. If you press your emergency stop, does your Class 33 keep going?
Hi Charlie, I’ve just popped down to my Model Railway room to do some experimenting for you. Firstly, I tried running the loco and hitting the red button - it did run on but not by much. Then I got a piece of track, joined it to the end of my current build with a rail joiner to one track only, so the section of track was unpowered. I ran the loco at a scale speed of approximately 40mph so that a sudden stop wouldn’t cause it to slide along the track by inertia. As the last axle ran into the unpowered section of track, it continued to run for about 75mm. I then looked at the manual for the Train-o-Matic Power Pack fitted to my Class 33 and found that, by adjusting CV123, the stay alive can be set to anything up to 4 seconds. So I set the CV to 128 which should give about 1 second stay alive. I ran the loco again at about 40mph onto the dead track section, this time it ran on for a mind blowing 256mm ! Goodness only knows what would happen if I set it to 4 seconds 🤣 Incidentally, I also tried the experiment with the headcode lights on - the effect was to reduce the run on distance from 256mm to about 170mm. Given that I’d never run the loco without the lights on, I suppose that’s the expected general distance I’ll get with CV123 set to 128 when running light engine. I intend to eventually run it with my 4-TC rake, will be interesting to see what difference it makes. I’ve recorded a little video to send you, but not sure how to get it to you. Fun stuff Charlie, and this Train-o-Matic kit is pretty impressive, I can’t recommend it enough ! Will definitely be getting more of these. The next train I’ll try is my Hornby 2-BIL unit that currently only has a Hornby decoder, I’ve been having problems getting it set up in iTrain, so look forward to seeing what improvements I can get. Take care mate.
Yes Charlie, I'd be interested in the home made Stay Alive units, as I was thinking of building my own than buying a pricey unit. The components alone if you shop around for the same cost would build a few Stay Alive units. Especially if have a lot of loco's etc that you wish to fit them on.
It's on the list John, Regards Charlie
Hi Charlie, Yet another interesting and informative video, I noticed that you tinned the wires on the stay alive but not the pads on the decoder, you may find it easier if you tin the pads before attaching the stay alive. Regards, David.
You are of course right David, regards Charlie
Great video Charlie. Great information as well. I am tempted to go dcc but I only have an 8 ft by 4ft layout.
All in good time mate, regards Charlie
Hi Guys. I am 71, and last year moved to N Gauge DCC for just that reason. The layout is just 5 feet by 2.5 feet due to space restrictions but I have a complex station and hidden storage yard with sound locos, signalling and computer control. The loco performance is fantastic with realistic length trains and although my eyesight and dexterity is not what it was, I can manage and have great fun and a worthwhile hobby. I love your videos too Charlie. I would do anything for an 8x4 baseboard. :-). Keith
Cheers Charlie!
I'm so pleased that you enjoyed it Warren. Stay safe. Regards Charlie
If I may give you some advise: Next time you want to solder a wire to a copper pad (like the pads on the decoder), first apply some tin to the pad you want to solder. It will make life much easier, because the tin will "catch" the wire you want to solder on the pad, and the soldering itself will be much smoother and better :)
A good tip SW, regards Charlie
Another reason for stay alive: Railcom simply works better. The decoder needs power to send signals "back". If it has this extra buffer, the timing regime of the "back-channel" works better, because of proper and not half backed ACKs. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Command_Control#RailCom Modern decoders can send back all kinds of data.
An interesting point Stephan, thank you, regards Charlie
Thanks.... I've been interested in stay alives as a way of compensating for my track issues like points. So when I was repairing a large monitor, I bought a few dozen capacitors with the intent of making stay alives. As I haven't lost them, a video of making your own would be useful. I think I'm going to end up with a DC layout on 1 level and DCC on the ground/main level....meaning I can use most of the series 3 and Super 4 track that I have. I can remember locos hesitating on my last layout 52 years ago!!
I’m so pleased that you found it interesting Ian. Yes the stay alive can be a breath of fresh air if poor running over points is an issue. Stay safe, regards Charlie
@David curtis Because a "Roll your own" can be made better, to last longer and fit to the intended loco far better than any off the shelf generic 1 size fits all (which don't). I can get far better performance from my own home grown than anything that's on offer commercially.
@David curtis Your loss
Good job with the soldering, and not letting out the magic smoke! As an aside, the use of clips to attach loco bodies to chassis drives me nuts! Great for the assembly line, but so risky later on... Bring back screws.
Hi Chris, I totally agree with you, regards Charlie
I have a couple of rather old tank engines I did a DCC conversion on, and they have a bit of a wobble to the point where they occasionally lose connection with the track. Their stopping and starting is a bit annoying and obvious, and one of them even blew the DCC decoder due to these stopstarts.
After watching this, I'm thinking these two would be ideal candidates for a stay alive circuit. The decoders I installed are Hornby R8249, so there are no official stay alive for them, but there is some info on the internet on how to make and install your own to it.
Producing your own stay alive capacitors isn’t really that difficult. The real problem is understanding where to solder them onto the decoder. That’s the information that you need to acquire from the manufacturer. Regards Charlie
Well, as mentioned, the Hornby R8249 doesn't officially support a stay alive circuit. From what I can tell looking at the circuit board, and some basic information I managed to find on the internet, the Red and Black wires connected to the wheel pickup feed into 2 parts of the circuit. The DCC signal decoder, and into a Bridge Rectifier to make a DC voltage (which we can presume powers everything).
All information I've found suggests you need to connect your "stay alive" across the DC output of the bridge rectifier.
The stay alive consisting of a capacitor (or several), with a Charging resistor (about 100 ohms, as not to draw too much current to charge the capacitor), and discharge diode (to allow everything to draw as much current as it wants). Other components (such as a zener diode across the capacitor to limit maximum voltage, or a high value resistor across the capacitor to discharge it when you're done using it) are optional.
As an electronic engineer, this all makes sense to me.
I use 680uf capacitors with a 1n40007 diode and 100ohm resistor, and repurpose the CAB light switch under the loco to CAP to switch it on and off
Now that clearly was a great idea. Regards Charlie
Repurposing the switch is a super idea! If you can get hold of 1N5819 Schottky diodes, they will perform a little better than the 1N4007s. Less voltage drop during discharge.
Tha is Charlie for another great video
Thanks Jade, I’m so pleased that you found it interesting. Regards Charlie
Stay alive are great, the bigger the capacitor the better
But does yours stop when you press the emergency stop button? Regards Charlie
@@ChadwickModelRailway depends on the setting on the chip and the size of the capacitor , but I have had now problems with stopping
Charlie that was a real goodun. Or you could say "Power Packed" installment. I think you played to a capacitor crowd! You really get us thinking about these things and I for one always find it useful info.
One thing I noted that you mentioned was the term "pico farad". I'm not a wiggly amp type of chap but did you mean micro farad? Sorry to be picky. Cheers Will.
Yes will, and you’re not the 1st to notice either!
For those looking for help in making DIY stay alives, and fitting them to decoders not normally intended for them, the Strathpeffer Junction channel has a two-part video series clearly showing what is needed, and how to go about it. If Charlie has made a video on this I’ve been unable to find it, but as an experienced electronics design engineer Charlie I would be pleased to guide you in making good recommendations to your viewers.
Thanks Mark, can I take you up on this offer in about a months time mate. Regards, Charlie
Nice and informative video Charlie. I'm sure though, I 'm not alone in thinking in this day and age a stay alive device should be part of the DCC circuitry as standard. It would not add greatly to the cost of the loco. Keep on with the good work.
I couldn’t agree more as long as all the bells and whistles are there too. Ten functions, uncoupler etc. Regards Charlie
A great idea, but the stay alive is often bigger than the decoder, in the case of N gauge a _lot_ bigger. So adding it to the decoder makes it less flexible for fitting. The real solution would either be a tiny plug and socket arrangement, or for a wired stay-alive to come pre-wired as a separate item which can be cut off, or modified to shorten the wires for fitting into tricky spaces.
Hi Charlie
Fitting a stay alive to a Zimo chip with sound would be good. I have one to fit to a class 20 which as I am sure you know does not have a lot of room. The instructions are not good really for the connections for the speaker, and the stay alive. Great video as usual, thank you and keep safe.
Ian
That’s not always the case Ian. As I hopefully explained, ESU do explain in their manuals exactly how to solder on the stay alive capacitor.
I will attempt to fit the Zimo but poor technical documentation is unforgivable.
Adding stay alive to a few loco's on your track can overload the DCC controller. A capacitor at power up is a short circuit. There the stay alive needs a resistor in series to stop the short.
Another reason to use those made by ESU Nigel. Regards Charlie
Good decoder instructions show how to connect a capacitor with a charge limiting 100 ohm resistor in parallel with a discharge diode, so you limit the charge current but get all the current you need when the track connection is interrupted.
Loving the content. Just have a video idea: could you do a full layout tour because I can't find one on your Channel and it would be very helpful to understand what you're working on? Thank you 😊
Hi Wizz, my latest videos do contain the track plan which should help you to visualise the completed layout.
I use the lais large stay alive and I get up to about 20 seconds running on the stay alive with soundtraxx sound decoders (not that it ever needs to run that long without track power but it makes a huge difference reducing the jerk on very slow starts on long freights when they first crawl)
When you hit the emergency stop button Steve does the loco still carry on? On the ESU decoders with stay alive, they stop. Regards Charlie
@@ChadwickModelRailway yes it stops straight away
@@ChadwickModelRailway plus on emergency stop on the sound locos it goes through the full rev back to idle then shutdown procedure
More videos on DIY stay alive please.
Okay Vic, it’s on the list
Hi Charlie
Great video as usual although I sort of expected you to find a way to fit the zimo, speaker and cap.
I've wondered about stay alive s for a while and if it's possible to retro fit them but the cost and the soldering held me back.
I'd certainly be interested in a follow on from this video if you are making your own.
Cheers Paul
I’ll certainly produce another video looking into this.
Thanks Charlie. That took a bit more concentration from me to follow than usual, as it took me a while to figure out what the issue was in the first place. Still not sure I've got it. Is it that performance from that DMU was so poor, you felt it needed a stayalive, but you couldn't find room for the speaker and the capacitor, so had to take out the sound chip, and put it a new chip, to which you could then attach the stayalive?
I'd always assumed (being from a DC background) that the stayalive in a DCC loco just went between the pickups and the chip: I hadn't realised that the stayalive was actually programmable through the chip's CVs. That's rather cool! Strange that chip manufacturers don't make connecting stayalives easier: e.g. with plugs & sockets, or at least just leaving the connection tabs where you solder it to exposed, so you don't have to go through that carving off the shinkwrap plastic palaver.
I also now want to know what all the other tabs on that chip are for - clearly they must be there for you to solder on more wires for more gizmos.
I’m so pleased that you find it interesting Andrew. The extra tabs can be used for more lighting functions et cetera. Your assumptions on how the video progressed are correct, without room for the speaker I simply went for a decoder with the stay alive capacitor. Regards Charlie
Nice work yet again! Charlie can you please do some more actual layout updates? I think they're the real 'meat' of our model railway hobby. Thanks! Rgds, Joachim
I try to keep the subject varied JP, something for everyone. Regards Charlie
Hi Charlie
Many thanks for another excellent video from your good humoured self. I really like the look of your Rolling Road and would like to know what make that is as I'm looking for one right now.
Thanks. Ray
It’s made by Zeller and is available from DCC Train Automation