I absolutely agree with you, Esper. I remember reading Dragonlance when I was a kid and being fascinated with the young wizard, Raistlin. He paid a terrible price to his mind and body in order to gain his powers, and required spell components and hours of daily study. The fact of his magical abilities evoked fear and suspicion. The healer, Goldmoon, was portrayed as the only cleric in the realm with access to divine power. Revealing the fact of her gift was dangerous to her safety. If I'm not mistaken, the authors based the books on their own D&D characters. I think it should be possible to play in a world where magic retains its soul, but it does present a significant challenge. I'm sorry, I wish I could give you some insight. I would love to hear more from you on this subject as you continue to navigate this conundrum. Good luck!
Raistlin wasn't just seeking magic tho. He was seeking immortality, godhood. But I agree. I don't agree that 9th level spells should require world shattering events UNLESS you're trying to accomplish world shattering events. 4th level spells should be dramatically more powerful than 3rd, 6th should be much more than 5th, etc. But 9th level spells should be able to destroy cities and accomplish miracles. Everything today is designed for the weak intellect to satisfy the Dragon Ball Zero IQ type. I'm a 2E guy. When they sold DnD to sexual perverts I guess that's when everything got demolished. Sad. Cool art with no game content. It's just eye crack.
Having grown up with Avatar: The Last Airbender, I can tell you that magic systems can absolutely work and be interesting while being accessible to the caster at the drop of a hat. What I take away from much of this video is that magic only works if there are reasonable limitations to what you can do; while at the same time avoiding the pitfalls of magic becoming mundane. This video is a great criticism of magic systems in general, but there are many avenues to a rewarding magic system.
I agree. Coming from anime and Chinese webnovels, I feel magic in DnD is so weirdly limiting. Only casters can do magic, it's supposed to require somatic and material components, etc. Magic should really be more free-form imo, even martials should get the ability to do superhuman feats through magical powers.
While your "criticisms" seem accurate and valid, they are more like value statements. The solutions required would make any game unplayable. The first level 1st edition D&D Wizard was typically a Wizard for ONE ROUND A DAY. The conditions you don't like are actually solutions to older problems. I'm not saying that modern gaming magic casters don't feel like they are making a sacrifice, aren't balanced with other characters, don't have reliable predictable powers, etc. I'm saying that these things are required to make a game playable and fun to all the players.
Agreed. This video was posted in 2014. I found it after watching a 2019 video where he complains from the other side. At the 9 minute mark, he complains how every attack is "1D10 + 5 damage" of different types and every class is cookie cutter. Yet in another video he complained that martial classes were not balanced with magic classes or how a Warlock burns their spells and becomes an Eldritch Blast cannon. His voice is nice and has pretty words, but he could have a debate with himself and achieve nothing.
@@godlessgod096 - I understand that, but it is far more common when people are not aware of their own hypocritical opinion and personal biases. That isn't a bad thing, and I appreciate it when my wife and friends help point them out to me so I can change and improve. Those make for the best moments in discussion, when somebody points out "but didn't you also say X Y and Z?" and you have to rethink your stance on topics.
In Norse and English folk tales and mythologies there is often easy magic, saying a poem is a spell that lets you talk to animals , a prince turned into a bear by an angry step mother who wishes him marry one he does not love. this is COMMON. There is an abundance of magic items and cloaks and the like, swords that look normal but take 2 gulps from a flask of strength to brandish, pebbles that turn to mountains. This is the basis of D&D magic, what you are thinking is of Semitic,Slavic, North-African and even Eastern magic tropes that require a ritual of 100 days to barely lift one off a ground whereas only artifacts and strong magic is required in germanic tales, in fact in one tale a blacksmith makes a cloak of flying from a the feathers of a bird and it is able to fly away from the Wrath of the king. I agree in some systems an extreme cost can be considered , Dark sun where self discipline determines the life and death of the land and in a Death gate-cycle like tale a constitution rather than intelligence basis for magic with real world cost in the story of the consumption of one's own body. and for certain things like curses might be able to be removed only after a set of conditions are met or resurrection can only be done if you petition the gods themselves directly or by the boon of something beyond our imagining can easily bring a touch of mystisicm to an act of healing or chicanery.
This is exactly how I've felt for a very long time. I'm always disappointed to find that my wizard never uncovers any dark secrets or forbidden truths. It's all right there, in the PH.
What about the principle "any sufficiently analysed magic is indistinguishable from science"? If your magic has any rules at all, it can be analysed and become "mundane" and understandable.
That is fascinating! 🧐 I have known and loved the quote: "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" for some years now. But never have I thought about turning it around and using it like that. But it's true, I love it! 😍
Sounds like Esper would love the magic system in Warhammer fantasy roleplay. Casting in that gam can be dangerous. Same In Symbaroum where you can fall to corruption if you miscast.
Yup :P despite its name, "low magic" does NOT mean WEAK magic; it only means it is rare. The winds of magic are powerful, but a price is paid; like accepting a cancer into your body and mind, it will eventually corrupt and destroy you from within.
Just to clarify, WFRP isn't a "low" magic setting. Instead, magic is inherently dangerous, because it comes from an unstable, chaotic source, so the reward/necessity for using it must be worth the risk involved in using it.
Even with as well as we like to think we understand modern technology, it has unintended consequences. The electric light means people spend less time in natural sunlight, meaning more people are nearsighted. Air conditioning and refrigeration ironically generate vast amounts of heat, contributing to climate change. Windmills for electric power also contribute to climate change by interfering in weather patterns. Our reliance on computers has changed how we talk, how we act, how we think, and ultimately how our brains function - even Socrates realized that the invention of writing meant less reliance on memory.
Magic - a mysterious force enwrought into our percieved and assumedly misunderstood idea of reality. While some discover magic in mundane aspects of everyday life, such as a glorious sunset, or the genuine laughter of an infant, others think of it as a tool for self-empowerment. Certainly most RPGs incorporate the latter, because power development of a character seems to be an appealing aspect of the game for a majority of its participants. While I agree with most of your points, Esper, and admire your noble lance-breaking for better storytelling and coherent use of supernatural tropes, I am afraid most roleplayers will stay on the worn-out path of pop culture in this matter. Too many players enjoy the strategic/gamist aspect of RPGs, and neglect depth and story-arc of a character for the illusion of power, they are wielding through their avatar. Which isn't basically a bad thing IMO. Just think of someone sitting in a wheelchair in RL, who suddenly - through the power of his imagination (and a few rules) - is capable of levitating. Roleplaying has a plethora of beneficial aspects for players, aside from storytelling. It may kindle interest for background knowledge (e.g. history), teaches teamwork and problem-solving skills, promotes eloquence, … the list goes on. But at the end of the day it's up to the player, which aspects he/she embraces. Personally I certainly welcome, if magic in RPGs would be used in a more mysterious, exclusive and thrilling way, than merely emulating eldritch machine-guns, or devaluating mundane skills/solutions. But if it helps a guy, who is living through tough times in RL, to play a powerful lightning-blasting battle-mage, so be it. Nevertheless I very much enjoyed your video, and I am convinced, that your valid arguments can help GMs to come up with a fitting magic system for their tables.
I enjoyed reading this comment. Indeed, what exists are essentially options of approach. I have come to appreciate both angles of magic: the lazer blaster, quick fix magic, as well as the enigmatic and mystical force. Simply put, they scratch different itches. In the end, the deeper and stranger magic satisfies me more, but I am in no rush to toss away the video game style spells. Happy New Year!
And happy transition-time to you as well (could not find a fitting english term for what we call the "Raunächte" here in Austria). May we be able to scratch a few of the mentioned itches, and promote proper roleplaying in the upcoming year, mate. Keep up the good work. ;)
Indeed ... Indeed ... Paradox adds a very real danger of using it, the belief in a particular area sets up the accepted reality and this will impact how successful you will be and how bad it would be to fail. Also, it establishes a deeper explanation for the magic that although very open and purposefully vague it is something to build upon, different than the rigid spell circles or levels in D&D that have spells that share nothing with each other (in term of how they work). Of course leaving it as is could make it too hard for players to come up with effects, so the book provide this as examples. So, one could think that D&D could have the same thing, a foundational system that gives logic to how magic works and build the Magic Circles on top of that, so that if DMs want to create their own spells they could, and also this system could embed some risk (as Paradox does for Mage).
I really like all the thoughts you share with us here. I myself was always really interested in "Wand-Lore" and general "Spell-Lore" in the Harry Potter Universe. My favourite examples are the "Levicorpus"/"Liberacorpus" and the "Sectumsempra"/"Vulnera Sanentur" spells. For those unaware, both are Spells and counterspells that have seemingly been invented by Severus Snape in his teens. Now, Harry finds a book in which he sees the scribbled line "Sectumsempra - for enemies", and uses it in the boys bathroom against Draco. Harry did not know the effect of the spell, he has never heard of it before, but still, it worked, leaving deep wounds in Dracos body. Now I always wondered: How would one create a spell? In the end, Sectumsempra is described as "a magic spell with an effect similar to an invisible sword, that slices the way the caster points/slashes his wand and inflicts deep cutting wounds" Now, as Severus, it could be like a combination of spells - you take a sword, turn it invisible with your magic, hide it in a "rope trick"-like mini-dimension, from which it leaps once the incantation is said, and cuts the way the caster points by means of a levitation spell - the entire combination of all those elements would be stored by one single litte incantation: shouting "Sectumsempra". But that would require preparation, which Harry didn't do. So how does somebody "create" or "invent" a spell? That always baffles me and I never seem to be able to find a fitting solution for the problem.
It is baffling, isn't it? Even frustrating or ludicrous. For me, the perspective of "magic works because magic works" can become quite tedious. Either make the magic psionic/biotic, and explain how the mind exerts control over the physical laws of the universe, or make the magic mystical and present it in a way that is mysterious, dangerous, and spiritual. This is a major reason why I could never get into Harry Potter much. The magic is stuck in this annoying middle ground between academic/scientific and mystical/mythic.
CZcams decided this was on the random menu for the feed today. I remember this when you put it out. It’s always been a challenge to maintain the mystique of supernatural powers when they are readily available to all player characters.
Must say, love the topics you cover. I've been trying to make a home-brew magic system for dungeons and dragons for just about 4 years now, and everything you covered and only a little more is what I've been trying to deal with. I've been looking for a system with many options, free range of use, and consequence on everyone doing magic. My group seems to take any system I through at them and find the most easiest way to abuse it so that it ruins the game, but thanks to this video, I think I can finally make a valid system that will be at least difficult to work around. So Thank you for making this video.
Hello, as a heads up this is a REALLY long list of what magic should be for me. Allow me to reiterate as well that this is *my* perspective, if you wish to challenge or share your opinions on what magic is, be my guest. I'd also like to hear other things that could add on to my concepts, regardless though, here's the list. For me, magic: -Must be studied individually with knowledge fragments the player discovers, or hints/fragments given by other players. -Has to be made by individual components (for instance: projectile>fire damage>ignition would let you cast a fireball that ignites things, or a contingency:fire>self>shield>flame spell would envelop its caster in a shield that would protect from fire damage when struck by fire) -ALL spells MUST be made with components that can be either rare or dangerous to acquire, and will lose potential as they're used. -Spells would put magical strain on the caster, initially to affect magic casting (making it more difficult like a higher cost, longer casting time, or an increase chance of backfire), but if built up too much can cause the caster to be harmed from it (blurred vision, heat strokes that make being in hot/bright environments dangerous, bleeding from straining the forces of life itself, etc.) -Have a price to pay for use AND upkeep, like say storing energy in a wand and using that energy with a focus to turn said energy into flame, but excessive use and lack of care could cause the focus or wand to fracture, or worse. -Summons must be maintained by some "food" you can provide for your magical familiar, including your own life force for some. -Ritual based magic should have varying degrees of difficulty that can lead to either annoying or dangerous effects should proper measures not be taken (using paraphernalia to stabilize it). For an example, look up Thaumcraft 4 infusions, not only does it look awesome but it feels like you're putting raw magic and valuable materials into an artifact of extraordinary powers. -Enchantments must be restored over time or applied through single-use means, and not in a pathetic manner like Skyrim. Pouring energies into a piece of equipment would risk shattering it in reality, like trying to pump a lot of electricity into a machine, too much voltage will cause it to short out or worse. Dark Souls 2 had an interesting take where applying a magical substance to your weapon would cause it to burst to flame, hum with magic or jolt with lightning for a brief time. -Tapped into via focal points or items that give off magical energies, such as plantlife where nature magic would be stronger by drawing in excess energy from the plants, but in a barren wasteland would be ineffective without anything surviving there. However, all energy must be restored with time or you'd risk turning the area into a dead forest or worse.
One more thing about the World of Darkness: magic isn't just for combat. It's a storytelling game system, so players could easily go entire campaigns without getting into a single fight (at least, a martial one; there's something to be said of "social combat"). So magic in this system has just as many utilitarian applications as combat ones. Manipulating weather is one of the most common paths in linear magic, and that sort of thing doesn't get really useful for combat until the fourth or fifth levels. Sphere magic is all about creating effects on the fly, and using them for nearly anything so long as it applies to the spheres involved. Players can spend experience points on rituals or rotes that have situational uses. Or even use magic for its own sake. Why go to the trouble of creating a homunculus or construct to help out in the lab when some random person could be as effective, at less experience cost? Because it's cool!
I feel like this comes down to pure preference; more of a setting choice. The very, very gritty magic you described can be found in games such as Blade of the Iron Throne and Riddle of Steel. Its costly and its difficult to cast. I've played all kinds of settings. From no-magic over to Hyborian-like magic, free flowing magic of Apocalypse World and FATE to Faerun magic and I still like Faerun's magic. I do agree that 4th edition lacked all kind of flavor and that it was ruined in an attempt to overly balance it. Made everything too streamlined and samey. On the other hand, I feel that Sanderson's Laws of Magic address many of the problems with previous magic systems. And I feel like it is the correct way to do magic. I've never looked back from it.
@Wonko Sane I mean. Really the simple solution is actually just to use hyper realism. Long rests take a week, short rests take a night's rest. What's missing is hedge magic and examples of non-combat/non-social based magics
@Wonko Sane He didn't talk from a DnD-specific viewpoint in this video, he specifically said "Opinions, thoughts, and criticisms of magic in modern gaming".
Best video IMO from you, by far. Even though i like your monster rating vids alot, this made me rethink magicsystems, and i will try to create more... harsh magic system, and try to introduce it to our playgroup
The way I see it is simple: if I say "peasant" what should come to mind is a category of people, but if I say "wizard" what should come to mind is names.
Before I watched this today, I already had a concept for creating a game in which casual magic healing and the HP roller coaster were to be replaced with limited, powerful brews made from resources found within the world, of which it would be reasonable to only carry a few, for the sake of making the adventure challenging without needing to inflate enemy stats and adversely removing any element of player skill. Now I find myself driven to make the arts of most magical craft explosive and mysterious, not quite predictable, but common enough in lesser forms that it is still widely used and prevalent within the societies of the setting. Again before watching this, I already had ideas of bringing back the old mysteries of finding only one or two enchanted items in a good dungeon run, and seldom knowing what powers they contained (as opposed to being like "you open the chest and get a +2 rapier of flame touch"). Take caution with that new sword of yours, young squire, for until a proper enchanter has studied it, there is no telling if that red, fiery glow signifies great valorous might, or explosive instability.
Most people who enjoy fantasy fiction know little or nothing about what people in the past (and many in the present) believed (or still believe) about magic. Magic was easily accessible - everyone had access to protective amulets and lucky talismans, to ponds and streams reputed to have healing powers, to caves where ancient powers might grant favors in exchange for sacrifices. Magic was anything BUT mysterious - everyone knew there were spirits all over the place and why sympathetic magic worked. Magic was both natural and supernatural because there was no hard line between the two, the natural was supernatural and the supernatural was natural.If you prefer magic that is mysterious and more harmful than helpful, great, awesome, but don't portray that as a historical understanding of magic. Everyone was a mage, in a sense, a sorcerer if not a wizard (in D&D terms). Magic has always been a tool used by humans to get what we want; the primary difference between magic and religion is that magic serves the self, while religion serves the deity.Furthermore, if you're a GM but your first concern isn't making sure your players have fun, then you're doing it wrong. People don't play RPGs to have some dude lord over them, we play to enjoy ourselves. I agree that magic should (for the sake of dramatic tension) be as dangerous as it is powerful and mysterious and even creepy (because I'm a dark fantasy lover) but magic doesn't HAVE to be that way to be accepted as magical.
You know it's bad nerd behavior when it starts like this: "Most people who enjoy fantasy fiction know little or nothing..." Then 36 self-righteous nerd bullies actually like it.
Yeah honestly this video shows that he doesn't understand the first thing about the difference between game balance and his fantasies. The whole video just sounded really stupid.
I took the argument to be that current game magic is not serving good storytelling rather than being in some sense inaccurate or not historically accurate.
In 5e try causing d6 exploding damage dice to player for each level of slot, so technically first level spell could kill you, maybe dark wizards could apply this damage to others?
I still remember that day, 1987, first edition AD&D, my magic user lost her spell book due to a black dragon acid spit... guess what happened next... i was completely useless for the next sessions... had to get a new spell book, had to get (via adventuring, no magic shops) new spells, hoping to get MU scrolls with the treasure % rolls... dunno what kind of dungeon masters you had, but i had a heck of a time playing my magic user...
If Magic is to be portrayed as mystical, consequently, no player ever would be able to be a magic user and utilize it effectively. Because in doing so, magic automatically becomes demystified. In terms of gameplay, magic is a tool like an axe. Used as a means to an end. Its mechanics have to abide by the requirement of balancing, otherwise the game breaks apart. I think you are trying to sqare a circle here. Writing a story with supernatural, mystic magic and portraying magic as a set of rules, providing a framework for interactivity, are incompatible by definition. It basically comes down to this: Either the players can control magic as part of a ruleset - then it is far from mystical. Or it remains a mystery, not governed by a system of rules so the players can't control it - then it is not an interactive experience, but at most a plot device.
I'm sure there are ways around this problem, but I agree that you have a point. For example, the magic system in call of cthulhu is pretty decent in being mystical and weird. It is defined by rules, yet, those rules makes it dangerous and unpredictable to a degree. That being said, Individual character lives in this game becomes a bit of a currency with little value, as the goal of the game is to get killed or become mad in interesting ways, while uncovering creepy stuff. In some way, by making magic more dangerous and mystical, they made the characters more unpredictable and of less value. Because we tend to assume that a gritty, dangerous system will create dramatic situation... yet, it mostly create anti-climatic ones, as many won't even try to attach to their character, as they are just an unreliable "avatar" for their desires. We like movies and games where we get to be in control and cool. We like to be dominating the experience. Yet, we like to feel like we are doing something very hard and exceptional. That desire to be a super-human is only natural in storytelling. Moments of vulnerability are not something many players WANT to portray or live. I personally enjoy the dramatic, yet I also strive to succeed when I play. Until I have no option left. To conclude, I believe there must be ways to make magic feels special and hard to control again, but it might be going against the motive of players who take on the role of casters. They all take the class to control the universe in some way, after all, not to be a victim of it's whim. Not as a character decision, but as a player. So you are probably right when you say that systems that make magic magical makes casters character less interactive, in that it takes the control out of the control-seeker. Sorry if my english is messed up by the way, or if my point doesn't follow from yours, I got carried away by my own thoughts.
A good analog for this mystical concept being applied to magic in a fantasy game would be technology in reality. Most of us aren't master electricians or expert programmers, but we can use phones, TV's and drive vehicles, while not knowing how it works in it's entirety.
Back again, after another year. Every DM and rpg player should watch this video 10/10. I am writing a system based off of this video criticism. Magic is versatile and volatile.
As far as magic systems in a story go one of my most favorite systems is from company Type-Moon, I'd really love to see someone create a tabletop procedure for it. You have a lot of dualities, a world that's reactive to the magic, and a fundamental mythos that creates a compelling multiverse. From there they've extended such a massive arrangement of subsystems that it's really worth looking up. The underlying core driver of this world is the Origin, based on the Akashic Record, which is essentially the seat of all reality, the future and past all exist there and everybody has a tie with the Origin that colors who they are (and if they are capable, their magic). Learning and "awakening" ones origin has the ability to significantly boost their abilities (magical or otherwise) though usually it becomes an overriding part of their personality, sometimes leading to madness. Then there is the World, which generally acts as an equilibrium maintainer. It attempts to correct anomalies and is why persisting magical effects is very rare and difficult. Ever since humanity manifested it's own collective conscious seperate from nature, often comes at odds with it. When threats to either Gaia or Alaya (humans breakaway conscious) become cataclysmic, they each have a respective Counter Force which is an an energy that unconsciously and behind the scenes empowers and lead a physical being to deal with the threat. First off magic splits into magecraft (Thaumaturgy) and True Magic (or Sorcery). Magecraft is a way to make something possible through miraculous means, it's the modern magic that mages have been developing to gain access to higher mysteries of the universe. It's core principal is that it operates on equivalent exchange with a few institutions that have developed their Thaumaturgical Theories to create a set of rules engraved on the world so that they may bring about their phenomena. The strength of that theory is related in many ways to the strength of the fate of belief in it, so larger schools with more magus actually have stronger theories generally. Religion and holy sacraments are similarly fueled by the strength of it's followers faith in their God, choked full of secret organizations like the Executioners, priest detectives and specialized magi killers. Sorcery is manifesting the impossible. It's achieved by magus who have found a path to observing the Origin. In all of human history only 5 Magicians have come to be, because after a path to the Origin is found that path is forever closed and a new path must be discovered, and they provide unique powers of unbelievable strength. While the unstated goal of most mages is to draw closer to the Origin, the threats of that research drastically increase. As one develops particularly fascinating skills unique to them the Magic Association will bestow upon them the "honor" of the Sealing Designation, where they will be incarcerated to be researched by the association. Additionally, the World itself will fight back if a path to the Origin is found or it perceives a upcoming threat, so mages tend to rely on secretive means to conceal their workshop. Magic exists in two ways, there is mana external to the person in the world that can be drawn in through the air, leylines, magic circles. If you create a Magic Territory that controls the flow of mana people can only rely on their internal magic, Od, when in the area. Od tends to be used for smaller scale spells that don't effect the environment as much, or used as a catalyst to start spells which then fuel themselves off mana to sustain. Either of these sources are drawn into a person's Magic Circuits, an aspect of themselves like a second nervous system that allows them to manipulate magic. Only a person with at least one circuit can do magecraft, and can handle a certain throughput. Outputting too much can damage circuits. A prodigy may have less circuits but far more throughput. In general as society has moved away from the times of mythology and the gods, magecraft that seemed to rival Sorcery disappeared and magic has disappeared from common knowledge into secret associations that pull the strings from behind the scene. Mages pass their knowledge to a singular successor by creating a physical form for some of their magic circuits and implanting it into the other. This serves as an archive of spells learned. As the generations increase, the number of circuits and archives in the crest increase, providing a compendium of abilities to draw from to continue the research. Runes and jewels can similarly serve as consumable simplified forms of this thoery, being either reservoirs of magical theory or energy (respectively). This is just the tip of the iceberg by the way
that is a terrible world to live in, even warhammer isn't that bad, everyone is fated to die and even if your body survive your mind and souls die because reasons and everything they do is fundamentally irrelevant as even if they create the perfect timeline it will be erased because alaya wants pain and death because of silly philosophical reasons and also makes alaya a hypocrite who is the exact same as gaia since it will just create 1000 races based on humans in different timelines so the definition of human means nothing, if i lived in that world i would off myself what is even the point of having magic in a world where everyone will die and be erased that is such a nihilistic crap
Okay, I know I'm late in the game, but I'd like to hear what you think about Wild Mages from AD&D 2E and the book Issac Bonewit wrote for Steve Jackson Games.
Watched the whole video, but two minutes in I knew exactly where this was going and I couldn't agree more. Magic is better in a sword and sorcery type setting, because not only is it really rare, but its normally extremely powerful.
on the one hand, I grew up with Tolkien, and so can't say anything you said here is even close to wrong. on the other hand, having a concise magic system with clear rules helps us immerse our in another universe because it brings logic to the unbelievable. I think balance is most likely the key here, giving enough information that you understand the likely benefits and cost, but keeping some aspects vague enough to leave room for a practitioner to show reasonable caution or recklessness.
My opinion is that it depends on what people expect. Sometimes, a player might want a mysterious magic that had to be experimented with to figure out how it works, despite having no clue why exactly does it work. Other times, player might want to reenact Avatar: The Last Airbender. Sometimes, player might want to go in for a spiritual experience that changes them inside out, other times they want to do a power fantasy, to escape from real world for a bit. Both hard and soft magic have their places in tabletop RPGs, as well as fiction. It's just a matter of preference that can change.
Of the many pen and paper RPG systems I have played, GURPS in my opinion has the most interesting and playable magic system. There are no limits on the mage in terms of spells they can learn and cast, development is also organic and not locked into levels and classes. It's worth having a look at, if role playing spellcasters is your thing.
A quick fix would be to increase the magic damage while reducing the spellslots. There should also be a chance for magic to missfire with horrifying consequences. There ezi fix to the problems stated. Magic is now feared.
I recognize this video is almost two years old, but i wanted to thank you for putting many of my recent thoughts into word. I've only recently found your channel, so i don't know if you've addressed your growing thoughts in newer videos. As a developer of my own homebrew system, i've had the following thoughts: Magic should be rare. Magic should be mysterious. Magic should carry an element of risk. Magic should be unpredictable. Magic (in my homebrew setting) should carry a certain stigma. Think of this as the mutants in the XMen. There are many mutants, but many, many more ordinary folk. Because the mutants are new, misunderstood, powerful, and look like you or i, they are feared. Right now i'm considering magic being similar to D&D, you have a spell list, but those spells have a chance of failure, or even catastrophic failure, resulting not only in the loss of "mana" resource spent on a failed attempt, but also the potential for the spell to backfire. Perhaps you wanted to cast a healing spell, but killed the person instead. I'm also considering a card sub-system, wherein the four suits represent a different element and magic users may shape their spells with a limited hand. Perhaps you wanted to cast a healing spell, but didn't draw the elements needed for that spell. Similarly to your views, i also have a design stipulation that there be no spell with strict combat utility. No fireballs, lightning bolts, magic missile, cloud kill, etc. I also like to throw in touches from video games i grew up with: Secret of Mana, Final Fantasy 6, and Shining Force. In these games, they achieved the technological level of magic that you spoke of, but in each case, those societies fell to war or to their own ambition. The "magic artifiacts" left behind are some mixture of science and mysticism that is completely indistinguishable, but in rare supply because those cultures have been ruined, buried, and their knowledge lost. Why are magic swords sometimes sentient? Maybe it's not magic, maybe it's an A.I. that lives in the sword's crystal structure hard drive.
I find that the World of Darkness (old version; my experience with the New one is limited) handles magic far more substantively than other games. Whether it be the flexible Sphere magic of Mage, or the structured Paths of Vampire (and Sorcery), the effect is roughly the same. Magic is treated with the gravity it deserves. There are sacrifices to be made to use magic. Mages need Quintessence, that raw stuff of creation, to work their arts, and they are not easy to replenish. Vampiric blood sorcerers, naturally, spend their very life blood, taken from the living. Even the "mere" hedge wizard spends his willpower, not quickly garnered. And no powers can even be learned without extensive study or instruction; attempting to get around this can usually only ever be done with infernalism, which naturally carries its own costs. WoD magic is not generic. Every willworker uses a specific style influenced by real world spiritual and mystical thought. And each comes with its own necessary tools and activities to use. The Hermetic needs circles and components and hours of chanting; the Verbana needs to make a sacrifice; the Egyptian Heku must create elaborate Blasphemy Shrines to draw power from the land of the dead; the Akashic must hone their body into a living instrument of mystic power. Nothing comes easy, nothing comes free, and nothing can be had without committing a character's mentality and world view to a model of magic. Magic in the World of Darkness is, naturally, kept under wraps. The Mage constantly lives in fear of Paradox, that force of nature (or paranature) that punishes them for trying to alter reality openly. They are beset by forces that would stifle them, or subvert them for their own ends. The thaumaturge's very existence must be guarded, so they may never practice openly. And the linear magician would eschew the conflicts of "greater" willworkers, and his power is more subtle and constrained regardless. Everything about the World of Darkness and the magic therein is compelling. And varied.
This all sounds very interesting. Each class or path has a unique process by which magical resources and abilities are gained. The magic itself is truly arcane, and it carries certain risks. I have never touched a World of Darkness book, but I have played a tiny bit of Werewolf, Vampire, and Wraith (the 1st editions). I may just have to read some more of this system, thank you for the great information.
***** They're working on a 20th anniversary edition of Mage: The Ascension, and the 20th anniversary edition of Vampire the Masquerade is already out. I recommend DriveThruRPG, because they have many of the books, new and old, in pdf and physical editions. Heck, the Mage 20th anniversary has a free Quickstart guide available through them here: rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/131409/Mage-20th-Anniversary-Edition-Quickstart
I have given some thought to the nature of magic. There are many cultures which have a creation myth wherein the creator god defeats a Chaos being (sometimes making the world from its body). So it is entirely conceivable that the victory was not complete and some of that primal chaos is still around. That is what magic wielders tap into. I envision it as a normally invisible realm of roiling, tangled elemental ley lines. A tincture dropped in the eyes, on the tongue, on the hands and in the ears allows mages to perceive and manipulate this plane of chaos. Mages need to wave their hands around because what they are doing is tying knots in those lines to get their desired effects. Mages need to speak spells (which would be more like throat chanting than any kind of language) in order to vibrate the ley lines to make them more pliable. Material components would serve a similar purpose A diamond could help with the moving of the Earth lines for example. Same for wands and staves. Tools to help you tie knots in the imperceptible. But when one wrestles with Chaos one is bound to lose at least occasionally. And even if you win it still taints you. So each time you fire off one of those inexhaustible cantrips it goes onto your ledger. Too much and you get the random effect of your choice depending on how punishing you want it to be. Evil mages would of course try to outsource the chaos cost to surrogates. This reality could also easily account for pretty much every monster in the game. Failed mage or misfortunate surrogate made to bear the burden of another's chaos. So anyone could theoretically cast a spell if they had the tincture and the training but few people would for a number of reasons. Firstly it would be rather unpleasant - headaches, nausea, cramps, extreme flatulence, the usual. Secondly it would be hella dangerous. Thirdly there would likely be a strong societal stigma on going into a career that might turn you into a monster. This is why mages tend to live in remote towers, and also why they tend to go stark raving mad at higher levels. To get there they have spent a long time staring into the face of chaos. Magic items would also carry a similar (if lesser) risk. Wearing them all the time accrues chaos. You might be best served by keeping them in a lead lined box when not in use. In this scenario only the most intelligent and strong willed could hope to routinely bend chaos to their will without being destroyed by the attempt. This is also why the first lesson of the apprentice is - Never use magic unless you have to.
I've started table top gaming with my son and a few 20-something guys roughly once a week. I had the same view that I wanted people to feel like they had something special when they encountered a magic item. For one I wanted them to be rare. I also wanted them to be rarely sold. Why would people sell them if they were so special right? Maybe you could acquire a few potions at an apothecary but nothing special. I tried making magic items difficult to identify. All of this was met something akin to hostility, like I was just being unfair. I think there might be players that have just never encountered the type of magic that your describing. I also think the mainstreaming of fantasy video games has had an influence. When I started gaming my concept of fantasy magic was linked to books and movies where magic can be part of the plot. Magic might have rules but the key to becoming a powerful mage/wizard/sorcerer is figuring those rules out and that's usually risky because so much is unknown. You might be able to achieve that in a linear story based single player video game but not in a MMORPG. In our system, {Pathfinder) magic is a commodity, a very accessible one at that. We are doing a pirate campaign right now and the professionally developed content (not that good by the way), describes sailors dying of thirst or infections or whatnot. Why would that ever happen? A cleric can create water as a cantrip and can cure/channel at first level. Ok... rant over. Just good to know someone sees it the same way.
+blahpunk1 I feel your frustration. When magic items are common and when spells are normal occurrences, the world feels ridiculous and cheesy. Some people like those kinds of systems, in which the game is detached from serious storytelling. Some people just want to click and push buttons on a pretty glowing screen. You need to find players who fit your playstyle. All the best of luck to you, my friend.
***** I appreciate this comment and relate to it in many ways. While I have never taken such an extended hiatus, I have taken breaks. If I had the time, I would design my own rpg system. Then, I could have the peace and freedom to either play my immersive system or good ol kick the orc in the nuts murder hobos D&D. Keep up the writing, feeds the soul.
D20 Call of Cthulhu had an interesting spellcasting System that did not feel easy, and actively hurt the spellcaster. The Binder from 3.5 Tome of Magic had a much more alien and creepy respect for magic, but didn’t mesh well with players.
This is the first video I've seen of yours and I've found it superbly thoughtful, encapsulating many of the very same questions and dilemmas I have been facing as I reenter the worlds of D&D after many years away. I'm finding myself setting parameters sometimes far from any of the rulebooks. Thanks for the effort you put into this.
I had suspected there were others facing the same dilemmas as I, but it is good to actually hear (read) it. I hope you find many of my other videos fulfilling, and I am curious about these parameters of your own design that you have implemented.
Alas, no parameters have actually been implemented yet, only toyed with. I find that "adjusting" and tinkering with the rules leads to a never-ending trail upon which I realize that the game I am laying out isn't even D&D anymore! Still working on things and hope to see more of your progress here also.
Very interesting. I agree with a lot of your points. I am coincidently in the process of building a homebrew rpg tabletop system. I will take this video into consideration when I get to the magic part (It's going to be very magic-light).
I would like to address your point about 3rd Ed not awarding Non-Combat XP, to my knowledge it is (I believe) in the Dungeon Master's Guide, that the DM may award XP as he chooses for overcoming adversity. If you were meaning that there is no concrete mechanism for it, I will freely admit that Flaw. This comment is from a Gamer who has been Playing 3rd edition for the better part of a Decade, with a love of the system, attempting to do an overhaul on it.
On the topic of manabars In videogames: I feel that magic, is often described as influencing the mortal world with nothing more than ones mind, where the use of magical items would help the caster do this. If this is the case then the mana bar shows us how mentaly tiered the caster is, the same way the Stamina bar show how physicly tiered the fighter is. On the topic of magic In general: The way i think magic should be, is pretty well described in the books of Dresden files; the casters mind and will is his most important tool, And he can use focuses to help him. In tabletop gamed (pathfinder, 5e): My problem with the magic here, is mostly two things: 1. "Why should a ranger get spells?" Aka why does almost every class get magic. 2. Mundane spellcomponents: magic is the very energy that created the world, why should things like bat poop or ox hairs help the caster use spells? Magical components i get; draw out the magic within the component to get a magical effect. Love this video
On healing: if magic can create planes, why should it not be able to heal wounds? Overal this was a great video. You have many good points that i agree with. My Main problem with they use of epic In games, both tabletop And video games: If everything is epic, then nothing is mundane, then epic becomes the new normal, And then epic is no longer epic
I love exploring the lives and tales of characters who are commoners, poor folk, or outcasts. The mundane and real world type situations give a context to everything else. Like you described, if everything is extraordinary, then nothing is extraordinary, nothing is special or wondrous.
magic must have rules. it must have barriers. and it must have reproducable effects. if it does not, then it is just another dice. another unknown randomized chaotic power. nobody would use magic if he could not use it. magic is feared because it has effects that could not be achieved by simple mortal. not because it does whatever it wants and nobody can use it for his own benefits. if magic is not predictable it has no use. what use is a sword for a warrior if he doesn't know what it will do? what use is magic for a mage if he doesn't know what it will do? if i would want to open locks using magic and i don't know if the lock will rust away or blow up or simply open then its useless for me. yes it will open the lock, but each possibility is hugely different in fiction and consequences.
Pada LAN I very much agree with you here. there needs some predictability. when magic becomes useful in anyway, there will be people that will study it. thus it will become a sort of pseudo science. pseudo because it won't ever be concrete because it is otherworldly, but understanding how it works will become documented a knowledgeable.
I disagree but not on a personal level. In fiction we can consider two different types of magic: soft and hard. One is clear and concise with define rules and the other one... Is pretty much Gandalf. It's a matter of taste, of context, of story. Limiting ourselves to one type is simply a waste
Did you ever see the movie Bright? There's a magic wand in it with a vast and unclear degree of power. If you're not meant to wield it, touching it will cause you to explode. Would you try to wield it? I would.
I feel like what you're describing is just one method of portraying magic. Sure, it's the popular route, with Game Of Thrones and a lot of the modern fantasy leaning towards rare and costly magic. However I think there's plenty of different options and none are necessarily valid. A high fantasy campaign can be just as valid as a gritty realistic one if the story and characters are both good.
I see your point and i agree to most of it, especially that magic should be interwoven into the world on a much deeper level then it usually is. Though I like how you're ideas about magic differ slightly from Brandon Sanderson's idea that a good magic system should have strict rules and follow predictable patterns, whether these are "known" or not. I personally thing that both of you are right and that both types of system can be equally fun and interesting if done in a good way.
I am going to make a reply to this as it is something I have heard before. However, I cannot simplify my positions to the space given for replies, so I will make a video to cover my opinions on the subject.
I liked what you said about combat in rpgs. I come from a video gaming background and in that case it makes sense to have combat take a central role. But for story-based tabletop rpgs the focus on a character’s lethality is just ridiculous. What about the character’s personality and quirks? What about its background? Its job? Its opinions on things? There’s a lot more to a character than its killing ability.
In the series Young Wizards; the magic system is based entirely off the manual thing but it still does not feel predictable, because it is shown very frequently that there are nearly as many ways to connect to the Powers (Gods and goddesses) as there are casters... a Laptop/ a smart phone/ hearing voices in your head/ hearing voices on the wind in a musical or normal manner/ being a conduit to the universe but if you become aware of how you get your powers you lose them/ having the spirit of a sun possess/ you hearing things in the oceans currents/ books/ scrolls/ talking to animals or plants/ being connected to mars because you may be a reincarnation of a dead species with persistent memories/ being a dog that is so loyal he can never be parted from his master/ being a cat so you can see energies that almost no others see so you are aware enough to hack the universe/ and so so so many more... not predictable right; but there is a massive issue once you are an adult by your species recollection the powers that be become increasingly stingy and pull your powers from you until you forget everything related to magic and replace the memories with mundane not magic related but plausible memories... unless your central to the fight against Entropy your booted to the curb with nothing to show for it and you do not always know its coming. Because that is the meat and potatoes to the whole affair... using magic to any degree speeds up the process of Entropy... you know the death of the universe. so magic is not infinite because like all energies it is limited... but then theres Time Heart; and no one knows what it truely is just that it is very heaven like and when you die you might go there. but then theres this book of Night with Moon and what is written it happens and so... is it actually scientific or is it more mystical. who knows
In my games anyone that is a Fighter, Ranger or anything is considered above the normal by a good deal. Anyone that strikes out to become more than "normal" is met with awe, superstition and sometimes hatred. If a fighter takes down a dozen kobolds on his own and the people hear tell of his feat they will both respect and fear the power of that fighter. Like a trained soldier he is anything but normal. Any healing magic beyond what a player can heal naturally in my game has a chance of failure or even cause greater wounds. The more extreme the healing the more extreme the risk. True Resurrections start to get crazy from the first time you cast it. I also delay any healing spell by having the hp not gained until the begining of the casters next turn. That way it cuts down on the last minute saves and adds some real tension. I also use death-spiral rules, dying from wounds not mended successfully, and losing consciousness and potentially suffering a coma. If a character is taken out but not dead they play a NPC for a bit at about half the characters "power level." At the time the character recovers the NPC goes back to being an NPC and the PC returns to play. I hate the cantrip system of 5e for the reasons it takes away the resource management of spell casters along with making magic less special. Limiting healing spells makes them even more valuable and so does limiting non healing spells. What you do have becomes cherished.
In all fairness, 4e was basically a skirmish game, not an RPG. Another point is that PCs are generally going to get into combat one way or another, so having reliably castable combat spells are a must, even if they have a sort of "cooldown" (I personally allow players to cast spells repeatedly, but with stacking disadvantage, and a failed repeated cast backfires). You mention tinkerers, hermits, magelords and scholars, and indeed, a good DM remembers these people exist, and may surpass or outclass even high level casters when it comes to their speciality.
I’m in the middle of designing my own magic system for an already pretty barebones and fairly realistic system. This video helped a lot for some of the thoughts I’m going with.
I'm design one too, but the scope is currently to huge, because I've created something that allows for anything. You do need the right abilities and skills to learn how to do it though. It works fine, but I need to simplify the mechanics of it. I want it so simple that you can used it as easy placing playing card in the right order and learn set spells to do one thing over and over. Though magic has a cost.. Actually I've made several, it started with small mods to the magic system of 2nd ed D&D, because I was annoyed by some of the restrictions, they didn't make any sense to mee. But then I realized that everything could be described as skills, so anyone can learn anything with a few restricting. Some abilities require certain skills at a specific level and that makes advancing your skills an adventure all on its own. You can't be a fire mage without understanding fire, the elements of fire or the nature of fire or... well you get the point. But Without talent you won't be very good at anything game changing and such talents is very hard to earn. Earning such skills are an adventure and it will take many adventuring before you are even good enough to be called a novice.
With healing a good system might be to have a character able to be fully healed maybe within about a few hours or a day rather than instantaneously but not comeback from the dead. That might be a better balance between story and gameplay.
Amen to this. Magic as everyday technology is game killing for me. I also feel use of magic by the player just to do it is a further weakening of the effect. Repetition hurts magic rather than making it better
Thank you for this brilliant essay on the rather banal state of magic in modern gaming. You are absolutely bang on the money with your critique of magic in that it's just too easy. The only gaming system I can recall where magic had a price was Call of Cthulhu where using spells cost sanity. USe enough magic and your character would inevitably go insane. There was a price and it was high indeed which made using magic in that system/setting something that the players had to really think about. WHereas in D&D Mages, Clerics etc toss off miracles of wonder like there's no tomorrow and can easily replenish their power in a matter of hours. It's become route, routine, and while it does have a degree of fun I am now looking at it in a completely different way after viewing this video. I am a very long term gamer, well over 36 years playing starting with D&D. I've come back to D&D recently but only to 2nd Ed as I still had most of my gear from back in the day. I saw 4th ed and hated it immediately. I've yet to play 5E but after watching your other video on the critique of 5E, well TBH I don't think it's a system I would enjoy. I like the idea of instata death, I like the fact that the classes were never supposed to be balanced. I like the limitations that the system placed on the players. And now watching this video I'm inclined to implement more house rules to my 2E game. MAgic has to have a cost/price otherwise as you have so correctly illustrated, it's no longer MAGIC!
I like some of your point's but i think some simple magic as a practical solution like levels of magic that way you get the lost arts that take sacrifice and still some useful one's to make being a mage actuly work for them
I will add a fumble chart that extends not only to to-hit rolls, but also to any magic cast during combat. Roll a 1 and yours rolling percentile dice against a chart. Might be bad stuff/accidents.
This system has criticals for hits and spells, and characters might get severe injuries, which adds realism. Also the spell system is more open, or at least somewhat different, so it doesn't feel like you have three of these and two of those spells for each day or so. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolemaster Sometimes reality is more mysterious than games, though.
Haven't "FINISHED" the entire Video yet, but I'm sorry, it seems as though there is no BALENCED way to please you on this kind of thing. You don't like it when Spells cost Mana (or MP), yet you don't like it if they can only cast it so many times a day and then have to rest... you don't like it when Spells are learned by the Character's Job Class, yet you don't like it when the Ability to cost Spells are purchased... I mean, is there ANY way to do Magick which would please you?? This is what I have been planning for my Video Game Project... I would have Mana (MP) which dictates how many Spells you can cast before you can't anymore. It can be Regenerated with Mana Potions, but it doesn't regenerate automatically. I would have an Intelligence Stat, (Magick Power,) which dicates how strong your Attacking Spells are... Normally, Spells can only be used by Magick Job Classes once they reach a certain Level, but they do not learn the Spells by reaching that Level, instead (just like with most all of the Skills in my Game,) they then have to seek out Magick, "Trainers," and pay them to Train you to cast said Spell(s.) However, even after you learn those Spells, you have to Equip them, and you only have a certain number of Slots available. Moreover, learned Spells and learned Skills use the same kinds of Slots, so you will have to choose which Spells and which Skills you want to be able to use at the same time. (Note: You cannot just change these at any time, like in the middle of a Dungon. You have to be at a Town/Village/something like that, a safe place where there are not Enemies.) Magick can be used by Non-Magick Job Classes, however, you would have to find, or purchase, special Items that are largely mostly Consumable and use them to use the Spells that are contained within. There are three kinds. Magick Stones, which only have one use and are Consumed. They are the most Common of these Items yet still not THAT Common. There are Magick Spheres, which have a few uses, like maybe 5, and then are Consumed. They are Rarer. And then there are Magick Crystals, which have infinite uses, but are extremely Rare. However, these Magick Items still have to be Equipped, as like with Equipment, and you don't really have that many Slots for them... I'm thinking like three at the max. Does any of that interest you??
Haven't played new D&D yet, but you are absolutely right that modern "wizard" is more like a dude with a bazooka. I myself found an easy way to evade this: make casters pay with hp for using spells and prohibit priests and potions to heal them, as it's not some physical wound but rather mental loss of consciousness. Surely this brings some new problems, like how to define hp lost from enemies' attacks from that lost from casting, but it does solve the initial problem)
I enjoyed listening to this quite a bit. Not only because I'm in full agreement, but also because you took the time to make the presentation enjoyable. Thank you. Quite good. I also try to, although often fail to, present magic in my world as mystical-mysterious-unfathomable. I try to shy away from Energy-Blast spells, and try to draw my players attention towards more ethereal powers. When spells are of the offensive sort I do not have them do physical damage. Instead, the spells' power is over the mind of the opponent, causing them to believe that they've been physically harmed in some way, though to everyone else, the damage is either physically negligible or non-existent. For example, Fire Bolt in my world acts more often than not as follows. "Myrmidar casts Fire Bolt at the goblin chief." (Roll a 4 or better on 1d6 Player rolls a 5. He then rolls a 6 for damage (well done)) "The goblin chief is standing at the edge flickering edge of your party's torch light. He squints his eyes and prepares to order his slavish minions, all cackling horribly, puffing up his chest with a gust of air ... when a single stray spark from the Myrmidar's torch lands in his hair... which suddenly bursts into a small but rather unusually fierce little flame. The goblin chief, at first confused, then confounded and then panic struck lets fly with an oafish curse swatting at his head with both hands. His minions look baffled. The blaze on their chief's head seems entirely disproportionate to his reaction as he is now flailing on the ground shrieking (6 damage is a very hefty blow in my world, as Life Points are Strength x Level (and strength is 1 to 6, so a goblin is likely to have around 6 hits or so). After a last horrible shriek the goblin chief lays on the ground staring upward, eyes bulging, mouth drooling with a trickle of blood dripping from his well bitten tongue. Looking up, the cackling minions grab their disabled chieftain, covering his still slightly burning hair in a burly cloth, and with a great commotion scatter into the dark shadows of the cavern tunnels... their clanking foot falls echoing into the distance." ... or some such. In other words, the use of magic effects the mind far more than the body, though there will usually be at least some hint of a physical cause. My style somewhat skirts along with Tolkien's principals of magic, or at least tries to. Magic in my world is not intended to be completely outside of nature - it can not produce the impossible (in most cases) - it is able, however, to enhance nature, reflect it, grow or shrink it, or transform it. Even Gandalf, after all, couldn't just make a magical fire out of nothing, "But I must have something to work on. I cannot burn snow". Here's a great read on the principals of Tolkien magic: www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/lordoftherings/magic/principles.html At any rate, yes, yes, and yes, I agree with you completely about how boring magic has become in most games. It is, as you say, exactly as though they had simply gotten their hands on a nuclear powered ray gun that can indefinitely zap monsters with medium intensity beams. Yippdiedo. Who cares? I also very much like your idea that magic should be threatening as well as mysterious. I have it that magic, especially for lower level MU's, can fumble, and when it does the magic spirals out of the MU's control, producing unexpected, and very often undesirable results. Like ... Myrmidar's Fire Bolt, on a fumble, might have the effect of igniting one of his party member's hair instead of the goblin's, or perhaps his own hand catches on fire, etc. As for mystic power... I do admit I have what you'd consider to be a standard Mana Point system ... however recuperation is not necessary quite as fast as the standard 8 hours of sleep, and characters might be out of mystic energy for days at a time. I also have it that when Mystic Points are completely lost (-4 or less) the character becomes catatonic, or insane, instead of dying... they are brain dead. Or completely stark raving mad (which can be far worse). Ok. Anyway, thanks again for the nicely produced video. Well done. Keep up the good work. :)
It's not that you're wrong but you aren't totally right either. Wizards reaching the final levels are WAY more powerful than any non spellcaster and some high level magic does take experience/money/ingredients the biggest example I can think of is "Wish". I know what you're trying to say but honestly that type of magic system seems more appropriate for things like books or movies. Where you can accurately show such things and not need to worry about balance. Lord of the rings and A song of Ice and Fire are low magic systems where things like Harry Potter and Elder Scrolls are high magic. An example of a great high magic system would be Avatar the last airbender (the whole world is based around bending, magical beasts, no cost to bend besides training) An example of a great low magic system would be Full metal Alchemist. (Very few can do alchemy, has to be equal cost,needs a special item that very few have) DnD can be either magic system, it's up to you as a DM to sort it out with the campaign,setting and players.
Anything only matters as much as people want it to, meaning to say, just because something is incredibly useful, doesn’t make it important to everyone. If magic is common, it doesn’t necessarily mean regular people would attempt to learn it, just like rocket science or robotics in our world. People value more then the most ‘optimal’ path when they decide what they want to do with their life.
I got off topic with my first post, the less successful dnd stories I've been apart all failed. Either the players and dms views of what they wanted caused the game to fail, or dms would make it a cookie cutter kind of game, npcs that don't matter. Or they want a serious story to be epic, and is meant with players not playing their own characters right and be silly or randomly nonsensical. Always clashing with ones that did take it seriously. Part reasons was not figuring what play style the group wanted to play before starting or explaing dm expectations. Causing poor control of infighting and the dm and players putting in far less effert towards the game as a whole, till it collaspsed. I want every char to matter that's why I love bards, in essence your a people person. If you get followers they can do many things for you, information dealings, haggeling. Being a goofer, maybe you have city jobs on the side with them. Carpentry, mercandice salesmen, etc...There is more to a follower class than just raising a army ( something my groups tend to ignore, to my disapointment.) In short like you I see after far more than a cookie cutter experience. I want the universe to be alive, npcs having routines, knowing other npcs etc... if players ask about they could learn more than enough about who likes who or hates who. Things that tick off other citizens. I want to know if i come into this town to my right is this place run by this guy and he is needing supplies to get his shop going today. Or maybe for once his shop is closed because he is out of town. I might catch him in the next town getting supplies etc... . True rpg in tabletop games.
me too i hate when it feels like only npcs and supernatural creatures can use and understand magic, it makes me feel like a outsider and ruins the mage experience
Wondeful presentation! I share many of your thoughts on magic though this video has enlightened me in some ways. As a game designer it definitely sparks my imagination. Thank you!
I actually see no problem in magic being mundane and common in a world :/ magic should not always be misterious and umpredictable. That's the idea of magic in our world, but in a world where a dragon could fly over your head in any given time, magic is nothing less then a cellphone for us. Take Tolkien's elves, they find nothing special in their magic (they don't even call it magic) because they understand it. And yes, you can have in a book or in a game character that don't understand magic, the same way in this world there are plenty of people who don't understand quantomechanics. But that doesn't mean that no one should never understand magic. I agree on a couple of point, but by far the one I found most pointless is "magic is too well balanced" and "life is no fair so a game should not be fair". That's plain wrong. You could have different class with different specialization and fields of experience, but you cannot put ONE god-like creature in a party where the rest of the character can only attack an opponent with sword. Because you'll create a game where ONE person have fun and the rest of the party just stand there and watch.
I like warhammer fantasy magic (before the age of the submarines). It is like okay, cast that fireball, but if you mess up, a demon could find and eat your soul. The magic also starts affecting the caster, bright mages become pyromaniac and gold mages start to turn to statues. I makes magic feel like something powerful and dangerous, not just a flashy light you toss like a handgreande at the enemy.
I agree with this. I’m about to start a homebrew world after we finish up our current game. I’m seriously toying with the idea of making it crazy low-magic. I know that in the world I’m writing, a moon was destroyed in an apocalyptic catastrophe... probably caused by people overreaching with magic. The result, I think, is a horribly damaged “weave” or whatever you want to call it, meaning that magic is rare and dangerous. I’m honestly not sure what my group will make of this. But I want magic to be a “gasp!” moment for them. I want them to be the people who rediscover and shape a recovering world. It’s certainly food for thought! Great video mate - really made me think about my game.
Check out MYTHRAS the RPG. It has many types of magic that are tailored by the GM to a specific power level. It will give you a bunch of ideas for a new 5e game.
Magic in games is mechanically direct affect, theres no focus or emphasis on how it would work in realities. For example a fireball is just that, but each spell should have described effects that actually change game play, and not just damage. For example: fireball should read....damage as usual, but the flash of light, the force of impact, and the debris affect anything vulnerable to physical damage. Then you have not just a fireball, but an experience of having a fireball cast...imagine what would happen in a small area....
On one hand this gives me the similar feel to call of cthulhu rpg where to learn and quite often to wield magic includes going insane and should never be done lightly. On the other hand magic as science can be done well too, lets say Brandon Sanderson would be excellent example of that. Magic has rules, it is well defined, it has its costs, limitations and creative uses, it might be rare and it does have impact on world around in terms of economics and politics. And I like it just as much.
Sorry, this is a rant and a pet peeve of mine, so I can't help it. Love these videos by the way. Full health by resting, wtf was my reaction. Either there are healing magic because there is a need for it or there is basically no need for it outside combat action. Suddenly a healer is no longer needed... and this is only the very top of an extremely long list of annoyances and grips with 5th ed. We went back to a modified 2nd ed version with some more house rules that made sense. There at lest things matter. Wounds should bring you down untill naturally healed in a few weeks, maybe faster with some help and your groups healer will have to work tirelessly to get the whole group standing again. That's how healing should work. Not, oh I'm hurt, lets rest... WTF This is imagined fantasy, not a frigging computer game. Magic, if prevalent, changes the world so change it. Magic is tricky or hard to learn, maybe it requires a natural ingrained ability. Outside your character's home, magic might not be as accepted, it might be feared, wanted or hunted. Make the world come alive and most of the mechanics of the game don't matter anymore. Besides, skill should matter and scale, not be limited to non proficient or proficient. A society of magic will have magical solutions to everyday problems, if everyone know a little magic what stops them from learning more. This things are important to learn as it brings the world alive. And for *** sake, monster should be as filled with flavors as any adventuring group and whats to say that monster don't learn?? I twist every challenge, every monster, simply because it feels right. Magic should never be common, but people might be used to it, so they seek out mages to help with everyday problems, stuff like this gives flavor and helps bring the world to life. This is way local mages have towers, to keep the riffraff out, make it interesting and the wizard might let you in, though you might wish you hadn't tried. And dang it all to hell, no enchanter of items would create generic items, they would but their personal flare in the object. That eldritch sparks flowing over the blade, does 1 point of extra damage, but it is mostly nothing more than a fancy watermark saying this blade was created by Amira the Electric Enchantress. Flavor make the world live. Pick and choose, use what feels right for your setting, balance it out and play. That's my recommendation. Something like this might spice thing up a bit. Randomly meeting a zombie in the forest, is not an issue normally, not until that zombie seems to be immune to normal weapons. Or at least only receives seemingly minimal damage from non blessed weapons. Heal spells might hurt it a bit, but very little other magic will do diddly, because it is a cursed thing. The damned thing is not out to get the party, no it is searching for its lost heart that was stolen, by local necromancer. But the zombie doesn't notice the difference between random hearts, so it goes after them all, just to check. It goes down without a fight once it's heart is returned, but until it do, the damned thing will rise every night, no matter whats been done to it. Figuring this out however might be a bit tricky, especially since people attacked by the thing occasionally turn into zombies too. Create a band of robber goblins with modified heavy crossbows and make their leader a swashbuckling smart goblin. With the right ambush they'll easy take down most parties and can rob them blind. Especially if they use poisonous knockout gas thrown into the party's fire at night. My players were robbed at several points by a group like this, and they hated those goblins with a passion. But being smart the goblin leader offered a sort of truce, all the party had to do was pay them protection money and the band of goblins would leave them alone. My party still hates those goblins and go out of their way to bash goblins as a result because they might never know if there is a smart one among them or heaven help the party if the goblins have a shaman who deals in spirit magic. A dark and lost art of magic. My point it make the ordinary special and memorable, it rules feels to limiting then change them. And for f**ing sake cantrips should nor do more than light a candle or move a small object or do 1 point of damage, they are the greatest distraction if used right. Machine gun cantrips what the F***, remove them and add utility cantrips galore. A spellcaster should be able to use X magic per level, so why not give them a spellpool to draw power from, overtaking it causes damage and using it is tiring. But it gives even lower level mages a bit more flexibility. Or maybe use something like this to create hybrid classes to get the feel just right for that idea you had. It is your game, not the rules, make it your own.
HP is hit points, not health points, having lasting wounds or being sick doesn't necessarily mean you have lower HP, Hit points simply represents how much damage you can take before you are knocked down. Resting gives you enough time to get over the pain, recover your energy, tend to your wounds, etc
About magic and being fair. Yes I agree, a great warrior should not be able to compete with a spellcaster capable of wielding godlike magic. But in the time a wizard or sorcerer accrues godlike magic, a fighter should not gain the abilities of a great warrior but gain superhuman, godlike combat ability. That is not only to make a game fair, but also because mastering magic should be much more difficult and time consuming than it is currently. So it makes sense that mages advance in overall power just as quickly as non-mages. And if you have a setting where superhuman ability is not something you should be able to attain through martial training then maybe godlike magic powers is also not something an ordinary magic user can attain. For an extreme example, think of Discworld, where you have to put ridiculous effort into a spell if it is supposed to be powerful, because just because of that world's laws effort invested and outcome are always correlated, whether you are doing something as pushing a heavy cabinet, or doing something like casting an arcane spell. If learning magic was that easy, everyone would be doing it, because the outcome always more than justifies the effort put into studying it. How much easier would life be for a farmer, if he can slaughter his oxen, sell their meat and then reanimate their skeletons to continue pulling his plough? How much more powerful would an army be, if you could mass train your soldiers to throw fireballs, rather than wield spears? If magic is any easier to learn and master than through years and years of intense study it would simply become something extremely common, which is the opposite of what you want, as far as I can tell from your video. So I think it only makes sense that a fighter and a wizard of equal level have an altogether equal power level if the fighter isn't actually more powerful. And looking at it from a pure gameplay standpoint: fair is good is not a thought caused by 1st world pamperedness or political correctness, it is born from a need to design a game where halfway through the game all the martial characters suddenly just start standing around, only using their swords to clean their nails anymore while the magic user player signle-handedly blasts everything away with their magical powers. These players also dedicate several hours a week to the game, you don't want them to sit around being bored out of their mind and feeling useless, just because magic "should" be more powerful. With that said I agree with a lot of the other points you made. Personally I think if magic is intentionally to designed to make the user more powerful than a non-magical character, the additional power should come with a loss in control and/or safety. Casting more powerful spells should put the mage at equally increasing risk.
I like when magic is more free flowing and concrete. Things like Ars Magica and Mage the Ascension where magic is more about understanding the mystical energies and how magic can effect reality.
Hey Esper. Do you still feel you still feel the same about magic in games? If you don't, can we get a new video about this subject? Please don't delete this one so I can re-listen to it when I'm feeling defeated by the mystical magic system I'm writing. Thanks. Have a good one :)
I have a counter-argument: aren't magicians the very being, who understand how magic works? After all, they have spent years studying its mysteries and mastering its intrinsic nature. If they still don't understand how that shit works, why would they use it? Presenting magic in a way that is usable by the player, doesn't mean it is any less mysterious and magical in the game world. I think the biggest design flaw when creating magic for a role-playing setting is to assume a normal non-magical world and than add wizards to it. In this way magic can only be countered by magic. Don't do it. Either magic is part of the fundamental laws of nature of this world and has the same limitations and execptions like, say, gravity or everyone is going to use it - lets face it: which fighter wouldn't dabble into the arcane arts to get an edge on the battlefield? As for the balance, I say: Bull. Being physically weaker isn't really that much of a disadvantage, if you can turn invisible and summon hordes of magical creatures (each of which is more useful in combat, than any member of your party). And let me not get started on the things you can do at higher levels (the term "glorious spellcasting master race" gets bandied around for D&D - and not without reason).
Agreed wholeheartedly. Magic simply cannot stay mystical for long unless it's only gods who use it, and you cannot commune with them. The moment a wizard appears in, say, this world, we would quickly begin learning what magic can and cannot do. The magic - pardon the pun - would be gone.
there should be a cost and or risk to casting spells, that go up the as the spells get more powerful. I played a game set Warhammer 40K and every time the caretors used magic there was a 1 in 20 chance they would be posest by a demon or open a rift in the warp
I think the way D&D explains the use of magic kind of debunks a majority of these concerns. The weave is something that spellcasters can manipulate in order to cause magical things to happen. Sorcerers are "innate" spellcasters and have a knack for magical affinity, Wizards must spend great ammounts of time studying Magic and the weave in order to utilize it. Clerics are granted their powers because they have Devoted their lives to their god and the God has offered them a taste of their power, Paladins draw upon the goodness (or vileness) of their actions that has gained the attention of a deity that wishes to grant power. Rangers and druids are so in touch with nature that they have developed a connection with it that has granted them mastery over nature magic. Our characters in these games ARE heroic...even at level 1 you are far far far different than the average farmer or the paper boy of your local village. Besides....if all you're having your characters do is Role play or puzzle solve...that gets just as boring as endless combat. You have to have a balance of combat, story, character progression, and critical thinking in order to have a beautiful campaign.
There are plenty of different RPGs and many of those have a magic system like the one you want. Try Mage: The Ascension (the first edition), Nephilim, Ars Magica, or change magic using Authentic Thaumaturgy (GURPS).
Ars Magica, L5R, World of Darkness: Mage, Dragonlance or even Westeros(GoT) these are all low magic fantasy setting, whose creators probably shared your point of view about magic. Judging from your perspective, I recommend you read the Dragonlance Chronicles. I am sure you will find Raistlin Majere, the archetypical magic user, to your linking (as most of us have). Now back to the point. Fantasy settings/ campaigns such as Eberron, Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk are high magic. Keep in mind that Forgotten Realms is now the default campaign setting for D&D. Old D&D editions (1rst-2nd), Ars Magica and Mage:the Awakening are akin to the concept of low magic. Mages/Magic-Users use to have very powerful spells, but they could cast them very few times, because they were restricted in some way. In 1rst/2nd edition each time a transmutation spell was casted on a player/creature, there was a chance of instant death, called system shock. In Dragonlance there is the Curse of the Magi. In Mage the Awakening there is Paradox. In reality, what you are simply addressing is the concept of low magic vs high magic and the fact that high magic seems to be the dominant trend these days. The reason behind this phenomenon? The mentality of modern players, is derived from personal flavor.
I appreciate all this information, and it is good to know there are so many like-minded game designers out there. While I would be glad to try to some more RPGs, and also feel I must find a way to reconcile D&D with my current perspective. How exactly I will accomplish this task is still very much a work in progress.
I absolutely agree with you, Esper. I remember reading Dragonlance when I was a kid and being fascinated with the young wizard, Raistlin. He paid a terrible price to his mind and body in order to gain his powers, and required spell components and hours of daily study. The fact of his magical abilities evoked fear and suspicion. The healer, Goldmoon, was portrayed as the only cleric in the realm with access to divine power. Revealing the fact of her gift was dangerous to her safety. If I'm not mistaken, the authors based the books on their own D&D characters. I think it should be possible to play in a world where magic retains its soul, but it does present a significant challenge. I'm sorry, I wish I could give you some insight. I would love to hear more from you on this subject as you continue to navigate this conundrum. Good luck!
Raistlin wasn't just seeking magic tho. He was seeking immortality, godhood. But I agree.
I don't agree that 9th level spells should require world shattering events UNLESS you're trying to accomplish world shattering events. 4th level spells should be dramatically more powerful than 3rd, 6th should be much more than 5th, etc. But 9th level spells should be able to destroy cities and accomplish miracles.
Everything today is designed for the weak intellect to satisfy the Dragon Ball Zero IQ type. I'm a 2E guy. When they sold DnD to sexual perverts I guess that's when everything got demolished. Sad. Cool art with no game content. It's just eye crack.
Having grown up with Avatar: The Last Airbender, I can tell you that magic systems can absolutely work and be interesting while being accessible to the caster at the drop of a hat. What I take away from much of this video is that magic only works if there are reasonable limitations to what you can do; while at the same time avoiding the pitfalls of magic becoming mundane. This video is a great criticism of magic systems in general, but there are many avenues to a rewarding magic system.
I agree. Coming from anime and Chinese webnovels, I feel magic in DnD is so weirdly limiting. Only casters can do magic, it's supposed to require somatic and material components, etc.
Magic should really be more free-form imo, even martials should get the ability to do superhuman feats through magical powers.
While your "criticisms" seem accurate and valid, they are more like value statements. The solutions required would make any game unplayable. The first level 1st edition D&D Wizard was typically a Wizard for ONE ROUND A DAY. The conditions you don't like are actually solutions to older problems.
I'm not saying that modern gaming magic casters don't feel like they are making a sacrifice, aren't balanced with other characters, don't have reliable predictable powers, etc. I'm saying that these things are required to make a game playable and fun to all the players.
Agreed. This video was posted in 2014. I found it after watching a 2019 video where he complains from the other side. At the 9 minute mark, he complains how every attack is "1D10 + 5 damage" of different types and every class is cookie cutter. Yet in another video he complained that martial classes were not balanced with magic classes or how a Warlock burns their spells and becomes an Eldritch Blast cannon.
His voice is nice and has pretty words, but he could have a debate with himself and achieve nothing.
@@PaulGaither It's probably because he's changed his mind on certain aspects of play.
@@godlessgod096 - I understand that, but it is far more common when people are not aware of their own hypocritical opinion and personal biases.
That isn't a bad thing, and I appreciate it when my wife and friends help point them out to me so I can change and improve. Those make for the best moments in discussion, when somebody points out "but didn't you also say X Y and Z?" and you have to rethink your stance on topics.
In Norse and English folk tales and mythologies there is often easy magic, saying a poem is a spell that lets you talk to animals , a prince turned into a bear by an angry step mother who wishes him marry one he does not love. this is COMMON. There is an abundance of magic items and cloaks and the like, swords that look normal but take 2 gulps from a flask of strength to brandish, pebbles that turn to mountains. This is the basis of D&D magic, what you are thinking is of Semitic,Slavic, North-African and even Eastern magic tropes that require a ritual of 100 days to barely lift one off a ground whereas only artifacts and strong magic is required in germanic tales, in fact in one tale a blacksmith makes a cloak of flying from a the feathers of a bird and it is able to fly away from the Wrath of the king. I agree in some systems an extreme cost can be considered , Dark sun where self discipline determines the life and death of the land and in a Death gate-cycle like tale a constitution rather than intelligence basis for magic with real world cost in the story of the consumption of one's own body. and for certain things like curses might be able to be removed only after a set of conditions are met or resurrection can only be done if you petition the gods themselves directly or by the boon of something beyond our imagining can easily bring a touch of mystisicm to an act of healing or chicanery.
This is exactly how I've felt for a very long time. I'm always disappointed to find that my wizard never uncovers any dark secrets or forbidden truths. It's all right there, in the PH.
What about the principle "any sufficiently analysed magic is indistinguishable from science"? If your magic has any rules at all, it can be analysed and become "mundane" and understandable.
That is fascinating! 🧐
I have known and loved the quote: "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" for some years now.
But never have I thought about turning it around and using it like that. But it's true, I love it! 😍
How would that work in rpgs? How would magic be used without a system?
This isn't a principle at all. It's just a rewording of a quote by AC Clarke, but it doesn't make sense... 😕
Sounds like Esper would love the magic system in Warhammer fantasy roleplay. Casting in that gam can be dangerous. Same In Symbaroum where you can fall to corruption if you miscast.
Yup :P despite its name, "low magic" does NOT mean WEAK magic; it only means it is rare. The winds of magic are powerful, but a price is paid; like accepting a cancer into your body and mind, it will eventually corrupt and destroy you from within.
@@mikfhan i hate low magic
Just to clarify, WFRP isn't a "low" magic setting. Instead, magic is inherently dangerous, because it comes from an unstable, chaotic source, so the reward/necessity for using it must be worth the risk involved in using it.
Even with as well as we like to think we understand modern technology, it has unintended consequences. The electric light means people spend less time in natural sunlight, meaning more people are nearsighted. Air conditioning and refrigeration ironically generate vast amounts of heat, contributing to climate change. Windmills for electric power also contribute to climate change by interfering in weather patterns. Our reliance on computers has changed how we talk, how we act, how we think, and ultimately how our brains function - even Socrates realized that the invention of writing meant less reliance on memory.
Magic - a mysterious force enwrought into our percieved and assumedly misunderstood idea of reality. While some discover magic in mundane aspects of everyday life, such as a glorious sunset, or the genuine laughter of an infant, others think of it as a tool for self-empowerment. Certainly most RPGs incorporate the latter, because power development of a character seems to be an appealing aspect of the game for a majority of its participants. While I agree with most of your points, Esper, and admire your noble lance-breaking for better storytelling and coherent use of supernatural tropes, I am afraid most roleplayers will stay on the worn-out path of pop culture in this matter. Too many players enjoy the strategic/gamist aspect of RPGs, and neglect depth and story-arc of a character for the illusion of power, they are wielding through their avatar. Which isn't basically a bad thing IMO. Just think of someone sitting in a wheelchair in RL, who suddenly - through the power of his imagination (and a few rules) - is capable of levitating. Roleplaying has a plethora of beneficial aspects for players, aside from storytelling. It may kindle interest for background knowledge (e.g. history), teaches teamwork and problem-solving skills, promotes eloquence, … the list goes on. But at the end of the day it's up to the player, which aspects he/she embraces. Personally I certainly welcome, if magic in RPGs would be used in a more mysterious, exclusive and thrilling way, than merely emulating eldritch machine-guns, or devaluating mundane skills/solutions. But if it helps a guy, who is living through tough times in RL, to play a powerful lightning-blasting battle-mage, so be it. Nevertheless I very much enjoyed your video, and I am convinced, that your valid arguments can help GMs to come up with a fitting magic system for their tables.
I enjoyed reading this comment. Indeed, what exists are essentially options of approach. I have come to appreciate both angles of magic: the lazer blaster, quick fix magic, as well as the enigmatic and mystical force. Simply put, they scratch different itches. In the end, the deeper and stranger magic satisfies me more, but I am in no rush to toss away the video game style spells. Happy New Year!
And happy transition-time to you as well (could not find a fitting english term for what we call the "Raunächte" here in Austria). May we be able to scratch a few of the mentioned itches, and promote proper roleplaying in the upcoming year, mate. Keep up the good work. ;)
Mage the ascension had my favorite magic system
Indeed ... Indeed ... Paradox adds a very real danger of using it, the belief in a particular area sets up the accepted reality and this will impact how successful you will be and how bad it would be to fail. Also, it establishes a deeper explanation for the magic that although very open and purposefully vague it is something to build upon, different than the rigid spell circles or levels in D&D that have spells that share nothing with each other (in term of how they work). Of course leaving it as is could make it too hard for players to come up with effects, so the book provide this as examples. So, one could think that D&D could have the same thing, a foundational system that gives logic to how magic works and build the Magic Circles on top of that, so that if DMs want to create their own spells they could, and also this system could embed some risk (as Paradox does for Mage).
I really like all the thoughts you share with us here.
I myself was always really interested in "Wand-Lore" and general "Spell-Lore" in the Harry Potter Universe. My favourite examples are the "Levicorpus"/"Liberacorpus" and the "Sectumsempra"/"Vulnera Sanentur" spells. For those unaware, both are Spells and counterspells that have seemingly been invented by Severus Snape in his teens. Now, Harry finds a book in which he sees the scribbled line "Sectumsempra - for enemies", and uses it in the boys bathroom against Draco. Harry did not know the effect of the spell, he has never heard of it before, but still, it worked, leaving deep wounds in Dracos body.
Now I always wondered: How would one create a spell? In the end, Sectumsempra is described as "a magic spell with an effect similar to an invisible sword, that slices the way the caster points/slashes his wand and inflicts deep cutting wounds" Now, as Severus, it could be like a combination of spells - you take a sword, turn it invisible with your magic, hide it in a "rope trick"-like mini-dimension, from which it leaps once the incantation is said, and cuts the way the caster points by means of a levitation spell - the entire combination of all those elements would be stored by one single litte incantation: shouting "Sectumsempra". But that would require preparation, which Harry didn't do. So how does somebody "create" or "invent" a spell? That always baffles me and I never seem to be able to find a fitting solution for the problem.
It is baffling, isn't it? Even frustrating or ludicrous. For me, the perspective of "magic works because magic works" can become quite tedious. Either make the magic psionic/biotic, and explain how the mind exerts control over the physical laws of the universe, or make the magic mystical and present it in a way that is mysterious, dangerous, and spiritual.
This is a major reason why I could never get into Harry Potter much. The magic is stuck in this annoying middle ground between academic/scientific and mystical/mythic.
back after another three years, still my favorite video
CZcams decided this was on the random menu for the feed today. I remember this when you put it out. It’s always been a challenge to maintain the mystique of supernatural powers when they are readily available to all player characters.
Must say, love the topics you cover. I've been trying to make a home-brew magic system for dungeons and dragons for just about 4 years now, and everything you covered and only a little more is what I've been trying to deal with. I've been looking for a system with many options, free range of use, and consequence on everyone doing magic. My group seems to take any system I through at them and find the most easiest way to abuse it so that it ruins the game, but thanks to this video, I think I can finally make a valid system that will be at least difficult to work around. So Thank you for making this video.
Hello, as a heads up this is a REALLY long list of what magic should be for me. Allow me to reiterate as well that this is *my* perspective, if you wish to challenge or share your opinions on what magic is, be my guest. I'd also like to hear other things that could add on to my concepts, regardless though, here's the list.
For me, magic:
-Must be studied individually with knowledge fragments the player discovers, or hints/fragments given by other players.
-Has to be made by individual components (for instance: projectile>fire damage>ignition would let you cast a fireball that ignites things, or a contingency:fire>self>shield>flame spell would envelop its caster in a shield that would protect from fire damage when struck by fire)
-ALL spells MUST be made with components that can be either rare or dangerous to acquire, and will lose potential as they're used.
-Spells would put magical strain on the caster, initially to affect magic casting (making it more difficult like a higher cost, longer casting time, or an increase chance of backfire), but if built up too much can cause the caster to be harmed from it (blurred vision, heat strokes that make being in hot/bright environments dangerous, bleeding from straining the forces of life itself, etc.)
-Have a price to pay for use AND upkeep, like say storing energy in a wand and using that energy with a focus to turn said energy into flame, but excessive use and lack of care could cause the focus or wand to fracture, or worse.
-Summons must be maintained by some "food" you can provide for your magical familiar, including your own life force for some.
-Ritual based magic should have varying degrees of difficulty that can lead to either annoying or dangerous effects should proper measures not be taken (using paraphernalia to stabilize it). For an example, look up Thaumcraft 4 infusions, not only does it look awesome but it feels like you're putting raw magic and valuable materials into an artifact of extraordinary powers.
-Enchantments must be restored over time or applied through single-use means, and not in a pathetic manner like Skyrim. Pouring energies into a piece of equipment would risk shattering it in reality, like trying to pump a lot of electricity into a machine, too much voltage will cause it to short out or worse. Dark Souls 2 had an interesting take where applying a magical substance to your weapon would cause it to burst to flame, hum with magic or jolt with lightning for a brief time.
-Tapped into via focal points or items that give off magical energies, such as plantlife where nature magic would be stronger by drawing in excess energy from the plants, but in a barren wasteland would be ineffective without anything surviving there. However, all energy must be restored with time or you'd risk turning the area into a dead forest or worse.
One more thing about the World of Darkness: magic isn't just for combat. It's a storytelling game system, so players could easily go entire campaigns without getting into a single fight (at least, a martial one; there's something to be said of "social combat"). So magic in this system has just as many utilitarian applications as combat ones. Manipulating weather is one of the most common paths in linear magic, and that sort of thing doesn't get really useful for combat until the fourth or fifth levels. Sphere magic is all about creating effects on the fly, and using them for nearly anything so long as it applies to the spheres involved. Players can spend experience points on rituals or rotes that have situational uses.
Or even use magic for its own sake. Why go to the trouble of creating a homunculus or construct to help out in the lab when some random person could be as effective, at less experience cost? Because it's cool!
I'm picturing OP talking into one of those echo microphones kids had in the 90s during this entire video
I feel like this comes down to pure preference; more of a setting choice. The very, very gritty magic you described can be found in games such as Blade of the Iron Throne and Riddle of Steel. Its costly and its difficult to cast. I've played all kinds of settings. From no-magic over to Hyborian-like magic, free flowing magic of Apocalypse World and FATE to Faerun magic and I still like Faerun's magic. I do agree that 4th edition lacked all kind of flavor and that it was ruined in an attempt to overly balance it. Made everything too streamlined and samey.
On the other hand, I feel that Sanderson's Laws of Magic address many of the problems with previous magic systems. And I feel like it is the correct way to do magic. I've never looked back from it.
Magic in 5e dnd: Smooth Peanut Butter
Magic as Esper the Bard wants it: Chunky Peanut Butter.
@Wonko Sane I mean. Really the simple solution is actually just to use hyper realism. Long rests take a week, short rests take a night's rest. What's missing is hedge magic and examples of non-combat/non-social based magics
@Wonko Sane He didn't talk from a DnD-specific viewpoint in this video, he specifically said "Opinions, thoughts, and criticisms of magic in modern gaming".
@@LabroidasExcept his comments and complaints are D&D specific..
Best video IMO from you, by far. Even though i like your monster rating vids alot, this made me rethink magicsystems, and i will try to create more... harsh magic system, and try to introduce it to our playgroup
This is my favorite video on the subject of all time.
The way I see it is simple: if I say "peasant" what should come to mind is a category of people, but if I say "wizard" what should come to mind is names.
This is an amazing video, thanks for making it!
Before I watched this today, I already had a concept for creating a game in which casual magic healing and the HP roller coaster were to be replaced with limited, powerful brews made from resources found within the world, of which it would be reasonable to only carry a few, for the sake of making the adventure challenging without needing to inflate enemy stats and adversely removing any element of player skill.
Now I find myself driven to make the arts of most magical craft explosive and mysterious, not quite predictable, but common enough in lesser forms that it is still widely used and prevalent within the societies of the setting.
Again before watching this, I already had ideas of bringing back the old mysteries of finding only one or two enchanted items in a good dungeon run, and seldom knowing what powers they contained (as opposed to being like "you open the chest and get a +2 rapier of flame touch"). Take caution with that new sword of yours, young squire, for until a proper enchanter has studied it, there is no telling if that red, fiery glow signifies great valorous might, or explosive instability.
Most people who enjoy fantasy fiction know little or nothing about what people in the past (and many in the present) believed (or still believe) about magic. Magic was easily accessible - everyone had access to protective amulets and lucky talismans, to ponds and streams reputed to have healing powers, to caves where ancient powers might grant favors in exchange for sacrifices. Magic was anything BUT mysterious - everyone knew there were spirits all over the place and why sympathetic magic worked. Magic was both natural and supernatural because there was no hard line between the two, the natural was supernatural and the supernatural was natural.If you prefer magic that is mysterious and more harmful than helpful, great, awesome, but don't portray that as a historical understanding of magic. Everyone was a mage, in a sense, a sorcerer if not a wizard (in D&D terms). Magic has always been a tool used by humans to get what we want; the primary difference between magic and religion is that magic serves the self, while religion serves the deity.Furthermore, if you're a GM but your first concern isn't making sure your players have fun, then you're doing it wrong. People don't play RPGs to have some dude lord over them, we play to enjoy ourselves. I agree that magic should (for the sake of dramatic tension) be as dangerous as it is powerful and mysterious and even creepy (because I'm a dark fantasy lover) but magic doesn't HAVE to be that way to be accepted as magical.
Jonathan Henry a year later but well said! Damn well said!
You know it's bad nerd behavior when it starts like this: "Most people who enjoy fantasy fiction know little or nothing..." Then 36 self-righteous nerd bullies actually like it.
i agree, although it mostly depends on the setting
Yeah honestly this video shows that he doesn't understand the first thing about the difference between game balance and his fantasies.
The whole video just sounded really stupid.
I took the argument to be that current game magic is not serving good storytelling rather than being in some sense inaccurate or not historically accurate.
In 5e try causing d6 exploding damage dice to player for each level of slot, so technically first level spell could kill you, maybe dark wizards could apply this damage to others?
Expoding d6 averages 3,5/(5/6) = 4,2. Whopping 0,7 above 3,5 avg.
I still remember that day, 1987, first edition AD&D, my magic user lost her spell book due to a black dragon acid spit... guess what happened next... i was completely useless for the next sessions... had to get a new spell book, had to get (via adventuring, no magic shops) new spells, hoping to get MU scrolls with the treasure % rolls... dunno what kind of dungeon masters you had, but i had a heck of a time playing my magic user...
Back after another year. Every table top rpg player should watch its video.
I liked the echo and music,It makes it feels more...magical than an simple vlog.
If Magic is to be portrayed as mystical, consequently, no player ever would be able to be a magic user and utilize it effectively. Because in doing so, magic automatically becomes demystified. In terms of gameplay, magic is a tool like an axe. Used as a means to an end. Its mechanics have to abide by the requirement of balancing, otherwise the game breaks apart.
I think you are trying to sqare a circle here. Writing a story with supernatural, mystic magic and portraying magic as a set of rules, providing a framework for interactivity, are incompatible by definition.
It basically comes down to this: Either the players can control magic as part of a ruleset - then it is far from mystical. Or it remains a mystery, not governed by a system of rules so the players can't control it - then it is not an interactive experience, but at most a plot device.
I'm sure there are ways around this problem, but I agree that you have a point.
For example, the magic system in call of cthulhu is pretty decent in being mystical and weird. It is defined by rules, yet, those rules makes it dangerous and unpredictable to a degree. That being said, Individual character lives in this game becomes a bit of a currency with little value, as the goal of the game is to get killed or become mad in interesting ways, while uncovering creepy stuff.
In some way, by making magic more dangerous and mystical, they made the characters more unpredictable and of less value.
Because we tend to assume that a gritty, dangerous system will create dramatic situation... yet, it mostly create anti-climatic ones, as many won't even try to attach to their character, as they are just an unreliable "avatar" for their desires.
We like movies and games where we get to be in control and cool. We like to be dominating the experience. Yet, we like to feel like we are doing something very hard and exceptional. That desire to be a super-human is only natural in storytelling. Moments of vulnerability are not something many players WANT to portray or live. I personally enjoy the dramatic, yet I also strive to succeed when I play. Until I have no option left.
To conclude, I believe there must be ways to make magic feels special and hard to control again, but it might be going against the motive of players who take on the role of casters. They all take the class to control the universe in some way, after all, not to be a victim of it's whim. Not as a character decision, but as a player. So you are probably right when you say that systems that make magic magical makes casters character less interactive, in that it takes the control out of the control-seeker.
Sorry if my english is messed up by the way, or if my point doesn't follow from yours, I got carried away by my own thoughts.
A good analog for this mystical concept being applied to magic in a fantasy game would be technology in reality.
Most of us aren't master electricians or expert programmers, but we can use phones, TV's and drive vehicles, while not knowing how it works in it's entirety.
Thank you. Inspiring video!
Back again, after another year. Every DM and rpg player should watch this video 10/10.
I am writing a system based off of this video criticism. Magic is versatile and volatile.
What you think about magik system on "The burning wheel" ?
Try the Runequest system. I think they've really tried to capture this. They have a free 'essentials' pdf online.
I love your work!
As far as magic systems in a story go one of my most favorite systems is from company Type-Moon, I'd really love to see someone create a tabletop procedure for it. You have a lot of dualities, a world that's reactive to the magic, and a fundamental mythos that creates a compelling multiverse. From there they've extended such a massive arrangement of subsystems that it's really worth looking up.
The underlying core driver of this world is the Origin, based on the Akashic Record, which is essentially the seat of all reality, the future and past all exist there and everybody has a tie with the Origin that colors who they are (and if they are capable, their magic). Learning and "awakening" ones origin has the ability to significantly boost their abilities (magical or otherwise) though usually it becomes an overriding part of their personality, sometimes leading to madness.
Then there is the World, which generally acts as an equilibrium maintainer. It attempts to correct anomalies and is why persisting magical effects is very rare and difficult. Ever since humanity manifested it's own collective conscious seperate from nature, often comes at odds with it. When threats to either Gaia or Alaya (humans breakaway conscious) become cataclysmic, they each have a respective Counter Force which is an an energy that unconsciously and behind the scenes empowers and lead a physical being to deal with the threat.
First off magic splits into magecraft (Thaumaturgy) and True Magic (or Sorcery). Magecraft is a way to make something possible through miraculous means, it's the modern magic that mages have been developing to gain access to higher mysteries of the universe. It's core principal is that it operates on equivalent exchange with a few institutions that have developed their Thaumaturgical Theories to create a set of rules engraved on the world so that they may bring about their phenomena. The strength of that theory is related in many ways to the strength of the fate of belief in it, so larger schools with more magus actually have stronger theories generally. Religion and holy sacraments are similarly fueled by the strength of it's followers faith in their God, choked full of secret organizations like the Executioners, priest detectives and specialized magi killers.
Sorcery is manifesting the impossible. It's achieved by magus who have found a path to observing the Origin. In all of human history only 5 Magicians have come to be, because after a path to the Origin is found that path is forever closed and a new path must be discovered, and they provide unique powers of unbelievable strength. While the unstated goal of most mages is to draw closer to the Origin, the threats of that research drastically increase. As one develops particularly fascinating skills unique to them the Magic Association will bestow upon them the "honor" of the Sealing Designation, where they will be incarcerated to be researched by the association. Additionally, the World itself will fight back if a path to the Origin is found or it perceives a upcoming threat, so mages tend to rely on secretive means to conceal their workshop.
Magic exists in two ways, there is mana external to the person in the world that can be drawn in through the air, leylines, magic circles. If you create a Magic Territory that controls the flow of mana people can only rely on their internal magic, Od, when in the area. Od tends to be used for smaller scale spells that don't effect the environment as much, or used as a catalyst to start spells which then fuel themselves off mana to sustain. Either of these sources are drawn into a person's Magic Circuits, an aspect of themselves like a second nervous system that allows them to manipulate magic. Only a person with at least one circuit can do magecraft, and can handle a certain throughput. Outputting too much can damage circuits.
A prodigy may have less circuits but far more throughput. In general as society has moved away from the times of mythology and the gods, magecraft that seemed to rival Sorcery disappeared and magic has disappeared from common knowledge into secret associations that pull the strings from behind the scene. Mages pass their knowledge to a singular successor by creating a physical form for some of their magic circuits and implanting it into the other. This serves as an archive of spells learned. As the generations increase, the number of circuits and archives in the crest increase, providing a compendium of abilities to draw from to continue the research. Runes and jewels can similarly serve as consumable simplified forms of this thoery, being either reservoirs of magical theory or energy (respectively).
This is just the tip of the iceberg by the way
that is a terrible world to live in, even warhammer isn't that bad, everyone is fated to die and even if your body survive your mind and souls die because reasons and everything they do is fundamentally irrelevant as even if they create the perfect timeline it will be erased because alaya wants pain and death because of silly philosophical reasons and also makes alaya a hypocrite who is the exact same as gaia since it will just create 1000 races based on humans in different timelines so the definition of human means nothing, if i lived in that world i would off myself what is even the point of having magic in a world where everyone will die and be erased that is such a nihilistic crap
Okay, I know I'm late in the game, but I'd like to hear what you think about Wild Mages from AD&D 2E and the book Issac Bonewit wrote for Steve Jackson Games.
Watched the whole video, but two minutes in I knew exactly where this was going and I couldn't agree more. Magic is better in a sword and sorcery type setting, because not only is it really rare, but its normally extremely powerful.
on the one hand, I grew up with Tolkien, and so can't say anything you said here is even close to wrong. on the other hand, having a concise magic system with clear rules helps us immerse our in another universe because it brings logic to the unbelievable. I think balance is most likely the key here, giving enough information that you understand the likely benefits and cost, but keeping some aspects vague enough to leave room for a practitioner to show reasonable caution or recklessness.
My opinion is that it depends on what people expect. Sometimes, a player might want a mysterious magic that had to be experimented with to figure out how it works, despite having no clue why exactly does it work. Other times, player might want to reenact Avatar: The Last Airbender. Sometimes, player might want to go in for a spiritual experience that changes them inside out, other times they want to do a power fantasy, to escape from real world for a bit.
Both hard and soft magic have their places in tabletop RPGs, as well as fiction. It's just a matter of preference that can change.
Of the many pen and paper RPG systems I have played, GURPS in my opinion has the most interesting and playable magic system. There are no limits on the mage in terms of spells they can learn and cast, development is also organic and not locked into levels and classes. It's worth having a look at, if role playing spellcasters is your thing.
A quick fix would be to increase the magic damage while reducing the spellslots. There should also be a chance for magic to missfire with horrifying consequences. There ezi fix to the problems stated. Magic is now feared.
I recognize this video is almost two years old, but i wanted to thank you for putting many of my recent thoughts into word.
I've only recently found your channel, so i don't know if you've addressed your growing thoughts in newer videos.
As a developer of my own homebrew system, i've had the following thoughts:
Magic should be rare.
Magic should be mysterious.
Magic should carry an element of risk.
Magic should be unpredictable.
Magic (in my homebrew setting) should carry a certain stigma.
Think of this as the mutants in the XMen. There are many mutants, but many, many more ordinary folk. Because the mutants are new, misunderstood, powerful, and look like you or i, they are feared.
Right now i'm considering magic being similar to D&D, you have a spell list, but those spells have a chance of failure, or even catastrophic failure, resulting not only in the loss of "mana" resource spent on a failed attempt, but also the potential for the spell to backfire. Perhaps you wanted to cast a healing spell, but killed the person instead.
I'm also considering a card sub-system, wherein the four suits represent a different element and magic users may shape their spells with a limited hand. Perhaps you wanted to cast a healing spell, but didn't draw the elements needed for that spell.
Similarly to your views, i also have a design stipulation that there be no spell with strict combat utility. No fireballs, lightning bolts, magic missile, cloud kill, etc.
I also like to throw in touches from video games i grew up with: Secret of Mana, Final Fantasy 6, and Shining Force.
In these games, they achieved the technological level of magic that you spoke of, but in each case, those societies fell to war or to their own ambition. The "magic artifiacts" left behind are some mixture of science and mysticism that is completely indistinguishable, but in rare supply because those cultures have been ruined, buried, and their knowledge lost.
Why are magic swords sometimes sentient? Maybe it's not magic, maybe it's an A.I. that lives in the sword's crystal structure hard drive.
A computer is a math machine. If you can put mysterious and unpredictable into math, feel free to do so and share it with the world.
I find that the World of Darkness (old version; my experience with the New one is limited) handles magic far more substantively than other games. Whether it be the flexible Sphere magic of Mage, or the structured Paths of Vampire (and Sorcery), the effect is roughly the same. Magic is treated with the gravity it deserves.
There are sacrifices to be made to use magic. Mages need Quintessence, that raw stuff of creation, to work their arts, and they are not easy to replenish. Vampiric blood sorcerers, naturally, spend their very life blood, taken from the living. Even the "mere" hedge wizard spends his willpower, not quickly garnered. And no powers can even be learned without extensive study or instruction; attempting to get around this can usually only ever be done with infernalism, which naturally carries its own costs.
WoD magic is not generic. Every willworker uses a specific style influenced by real world spiritual and mystical thought. And each comes with its own necessary tools and activities to use. The Hermetic needs circles and components and hours of chanting; the Verbana needs to make a sacrifice; the Egyptian Heku must create elaborate Blasphemy Shrines to draw power from the land of the dead; the Akashic must hone their body into a living instrument of mystic power. Nothing comes easy, nothing comes free, and nothing can be had without committing a character's mentality and world view to a model of magic.
Magic in the World of Darkness is, naturally, kept under wraps. The Mage constantly lives in fear of Paradox, that force of nature (or paranature) that punishes them for trying to alter reality openly. They are beset by forces that would stifle them, or subvert them for their own ends. The thaumaturge's very existence must be guarded, so they may never practice openly. And the linear magician would eschew the conflicts of "greater" willworkers, and his power is more subtle and constrained regardless.
Everything about the World of Darkness and the magic therein is compelling. And varied.
This all sounds very interesting. Each class or path has a unique process by which magical resources and abilities are gained. The magic itself is truly arcane, and it carries certain risks.
I have never touched a World of Darkness book, but I have played a tiny bit of Werewolf, Vampire, and Wraith (the 1st editions). I may just have to read some more of this system, thank you for the great information.
***** They're working on a 20th anniversary edition of Mage: The Ascension, and the 20th anniversary edition of Vampire the Masquerade is already out. I recommend DriveThruRPG, because they have many of the books, new and old, in pdf and physical editions. Heck, the Mage 20th anniversary has a free Quickstart guide available through them here:
rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/131409/Mage-20th-Anniversary-Edition-Quickstart
I have given some thought to the nature of magic. There are many cultures which have a creation myth wherein the creator god defeats a Chaos being (sometimes making the world from its body). So it is entirely conceivable that the victory was not complete and some of that primal chaos is still around. That is what magic wielders tap into. I envision it as a normally invisible realm of roiling, tangled elemental ley lines. A tincture dropped in the eyes, on the tongue, on the hands and in the ears allows mages to perceive and manipulate this plane of chaos. Mages need to wave their hands around because what they are doing is tying knots in those lines to get their desired effects. Mages need to speak spells (which would be more like throat chanting than any kind of language) in order to vibrate the ley lines to make them more pliable. Material components would serve a similar purpose A diamond could help with the moving of the Earth lines for example. Same for wands and staves. Tools to help you tie knots in the imperceptible. But when one wrestles with Chaos one is bound to lose at least occasionally. And even if you win it still taints you. So each time you fire off one of those inexhaustible cantrips it goes onto your ledger. Too much and you get the random effect of your choice depending on how punishing you want it to be. Evil mages would of course try to outsource the chaos cost to surrogates. This reality could also easily account for pretty much every monster in the game. Failed mage or misfortunate surrogate made to bear the burden of another's chaos. So anyone could theoretically cast a spell if they had the tincture and the training but few people would for a number of reasons. Firstly it would be rather unpleasant - headaches, nausea, cramps, extreme flatulence, the usual. Secondly it would be hella dangerous. Thirdly there would likely be a strong societal stigma on going into a career that might turn you into a monster. This is why mages tend to live in remote towers, and also why they tend to go stark raving mad at higher levels. To get there they have spent a long time staring into the face of chaos. Magic items would also carry a similar (if lesser) risk. Wearing them all the time accrues chaos. You might be best served by keeping them in a lead lined box when not in use. In this scenario only the most intelligent and strong willed could hope to routinely bend chaos to their will without being destroyed by the attempt. This is also why the first lesson of the apprentice is - Never use magic unless you have to.
I've started table top gaming with my son and a few 20-something guys roughly once a week. I had the same view that I wanted people to feel like they had something special when they encountered a magic item. For one I wanted them to be rare. I also wanted them to be rarely sold. Why would people sell them if they were so special right? Maybe you could acquire a few potions at an apothecary but nothing special. I tried making magic items difficult to identify. All of this was met something akin to hostility, like I was just being unfair. I think there might be players that have just never encountered the type of magic that your describing. I also think the mainstreaming of fantasy video games has had an influence. When I started gaming my concept of fantasy magic was linked to books and movies where magic can be part of the plot. Magic might have rules but the key to becoming a powerful mage/wizard/sorcerer is figuring those rules out and that's usually risky because so much is unknown. You might be able to achieve that in a linear story based single player video game but not in a MMORPG. In our system, {Pathfinder) magic is a commodity, a very accessible one at that. We are doing a pirate campaign right now and the professionally developed content (not that good by the way), describes sailors dying of thirst or infections or whatnot. Why would that ever happen? A cleric can create water as a cantrip and can cure/channel at first level. Ok... rant over. Just good to know someone sees it the same way.
+blahpunk1 I feel your frustration. When magic items are common and when spells are normal occurrences, the world feels ridiculous and cheesy. Some people like those kinds of systems, in which the game is detached from serious storytelling. Some people just want to click and push buttons on a pretty glowing screen. You need to find players who fit your playstyle. All the best of luck to you, my friend.
***** I appreciate this comment and relate to it in many ways. While I have never taken such an extended hiatus, I have taken breaks. If I had the time, I would design my own rpg system. Then, I could have the peace and freedom to either play my immersive system or good ol kick the orc in the nuts murder hobos D&D. Keep up the writing, feeds the soul.
D20 Call of Cthulhu had an interesting spellcasting System that did not feel easy, and actively hurt the spellcaster. The Binder from 3.5 Tome of Magic had a much more alien and creepy respect for magic, but didn’t mesh well with players.
This is the first video I've seen of yours and I've found it superbly thoughtful, encapsulating many of the very same questions and dilemmas I have been facing as I reenter the worlds of D&D after many years away. I'm finding myself setting parameters sometimes far from any of the rulebooks. Thanks for the effort you put into this.
I had suspected there were others facing the same dilemmas as I, but it is good to actually hear (read) it. I hope you find many of my other videos fulfilling, and I am curious about these parameters of your own design that you have implemented.
Alas, no parameters have actually been implemented yet, only toyed with. I find that "adjusting" and tinkering with the rules leads to a never-ending trail upon which I realize that the game I am laying out isn't even D&D anymore! Still working on things and hope to see more of your progress here also.
Very interesting. I agree with a lot of your points. I am coincidently in the process of building a homebrew rpg tabletop system. I will take this video into consideration when I get to the magic part (It's going to be very magic-light).
The best ever video on the subject. Thanks!
I would like to address your point about 3rd Ed not awarding Non-Combat XP, to my knowledge it is (I believe) in the Dungeon Master's Guide, that the DM may award XP as he chooses for overcoming adversity. If you were meaning that there is no concrete mechanism for it, I will freely admit that Flaw. This comment is from a Gamer who has been Playing 3rd edition for the better part of a Decade, with a love of the system, attempting to do an overhaul on it.
On the topic of manabars In videogames: I feel that magic, is often described as influencing the mortal world with nothing more than ones mind, where the use of magical items would help the caster do this. If this is the case then the mana bar shows us how mentaly tiered the caster is, the same way the Stamina bar show how physicly tiered the fighter is.
On the topic of magic In general:
The way i think magic should be, is pretty well described in the books of Dresden files; the casters mind and will is his most important tool, And he can use focuses to help him.
In tabletop gamed (pathfinder, 5e):
My problem with the magic here, is mostly two things:
1. "Why should a ranger get spells?" Aka why does almost every class get magic. 2. Mundane spellcomponents: magic is the very energy that created the world, why should things like bat poop or ox hairs help the caster use spells? Magical components i get; draw out the magic within the component to get a magical effect.
Love this video
On healing: if magic can create planes, why should it not be able to heal wounds?
Overal this was a great video. You have many good points that i agree with. My Main problem with they use of epic In games, both tabletop And video games:
If everything is epic, then nothing is mundane, then epic becomes the new normal, And then epic is no longer epic
I love exploring the lives and tales of characters who are commoners, poor folk, or outcasts. The mundane and real world type situations give a context to everything else. Like you described, if everything is extraordinary, then nothing is extraordinary, nothing is special or wondrous.
magic must have rules. it must have barriers. and it must have reproducable effects. if it does not, then it is just another dice. another unknown randomized chaotic power.
nobody would use magic if he could not use it.
magic is feared because it has effects that could not be achieved by simple mortal. not because it does whatever it wants and nobody can use it for his own benefits.
if magic is not predictable it has no use. what use is a sword for a warrior if he doesn't know what it will do?
what use is magic for a mage if he doesn't know what it will do?
if i would want to open locks using magic and i don't know if the lock will rust away or blow up or simply open then its useless for me. yes it will open the lock, but each possibility is hugely different in fiction and consequences.
Pada LAN I very much agree with you here. there needs some predictability. when magic becomes useful in anyway, there will be people that will study it. thus it will become a sort of pseudo science. pseudo because it won't ever be concrete because it is otherworldly, but understanding how it works will become documented a knowledgeable.
I disagree but not on a personal level. In fiction we can consider two different types of magic: soft and hard. One is clear and concise with define rules and the other one... Is pretty much Gandalf.
It's a matter of taste, of context, of story. Limiting ourselves to one type is simply a waste
Did you ever see the movie Bright? There's a magic wand in it with a vast and unclear degree of power. If you're not meant to wield it, touching it will cause you to explode. Would you try to wield it? I would.
I feel like what you're describing is just one method of portraying magic. Sure, it's the popular route, with Game Of Thrones and a lot of the modern fantasy leaning towards rare and costly magic. However I think there's plenty of different options and none are necessarily valid. A high fantasy campaign can be just as valid as a gritty realistic one if the story and characters are both good.
I see your point and i agree to most of it, especially that magic should be interwoven into the world on a much deeper level then it usually is. Though I like how you're ideas about magic differ slightly from Brandon Sanderson's idea that a good magic system should have strict rules and follow predictable patterns, whether these are "known" or not. I personally thing that both of you are right and that both types of system can be equally fun and interesting if done in a good way.
I am going to make a reply to this as it is something I have heard before. However, I cannot simplify my positions to the space given for replies, so I will make a video to cover my opinions on the subject.
Damn good. Voiced exactly what I've been feeling since returning to D&D from the 2e days.
I liked what you said about combat in rpgs. I come from a video gaming background and in that case it makes sense to have combat take a central role. But for story-based tabletop rpgs the focus on a character’s lethality is just ridiculous. What about the character’s personality and quirks? What about its background? Its job? Its opinions on things? There’s a lot more to a character than its killing ability.
In the series Young Wizards; the magic system is based entirely off the manual thing but it still does not feel predictable, because it is shown very frequently that there are nearly as many ways to connect to the Powers (Gods and goddesses) as there are casters... a Laptop/ a smart phone/ hearing voices in your head/ hearing voices on the wind in a musical or normal manner/ being a conduit to the universe but if you become aware of how you get your powers you lose them/ having the spirit of a sun possess/ you hearing things in the oceans currents/ books/ scrolls/ talking to animals or plants/ being connected to mars because you may be a reincarnation of a dead species with persistent memories/ being a dog that is so loyal he can never be parted from his master/ being a cat so you can see energies that almost no others see so you are aware enough to hack the universe/ and so so so many more... not predictable right; but there is a massive issue once you are an adult by your species recollection the powers that be become increasingly stingy and pull your powers from you until you forget everything related to magic and replace the memories with mundane not magic related but plausible memories... unless your central to the fight against Entropy your booted to the curb with nothing to show for it and you do not always know its coming. Because that is the meat and potatoes to the whole affair... using magic to any degree speeds up the process of Entropy... you know the death of the universe. so magic is not infinite because like all energies it is limited... but then theres Time Heart; and no one knows what it truely is just that it is very heaven like and when you die you might go there. but then theres this book of Night with Moon and what is written it happens and so... is it actually scientific or is it more mystical. who knows
In my games anyone that is a Fighter, Ranger or anything is considered above the normal by a good deal. Anyone that strikes out to become more than "normal" is met with awe, superstition and sometimes hatred. If a fighter takes down a dozen kobolds on his own and the people hear tell of his feat they will both respect and fear the power of that fighter. Like a trained soldier he is anything but normal. Any healing magic beyond what a player can heal naturally in my game has a chance of failure or even cause greater wounds. The more extreme the healing the more extreme the risk. True Resurrections start to get crazy from the first time you cast it. I also delay any healing spell by having the hp not gained until the begining of the casters next turn. That way it cuts down on the last minute saves and adds some real tension. I also use death-spiral rules, dying from wounds not mended successfully, and losing consciousness and potentially suffering a coma. If a character is taken out but not dead they play a NPC for a bit at about half the characters "power level." At the time the character recovers the NPC goes back to being an NPC and the PC returns to play. I hate the cantrip system of 5e for the reasons it takes away the resource management of spell casters along with making magic less special. Limiting healing spells makes them even more valuable and so does limiting non healing spells. What you do have becomes cherished.
In all fairness, 4e was basically a skirmish game, not an RPG.
Another point is that PCs are generally going to get into combat one way or another, so having reliably castable combat spells are a must, even if they have a sort of "cooldown" (I personally allow players to cast spells repeatedly, but with stacking disadvantage, and a failed repeated cast backfires).
You mention tinkerers, hermits, magelords and scholars, and indeed, a good DM remembers these people exist, and may surpass or outclass even high level casters when it comes to their speciality.
You made a mistake, you gain xp by beating a challange not killing things. Just by stopping the encounter you have beat it.
I’m in the middle of designing my own magic system for an already pretty barebones and fairly realistic system. This video helped a lot for some of the thoughts I’m going with.
Do you have any examples of your work? Videos or a website? I'm curious to check out your work
What did you wind up coming up with? Post a link?
I'm design one too, but the scope is currently to huge, because I've created something that allows for anything. You do need the right abilities and skills to learn how to do it though. It works fine, but I need to simplify the mechanics of it. I want it so simple that you can used it as easy placing playing card in the right order and learn set spells to do one thing over and over. Though magic has a cost..
Actually I've made several, it started with small mods to the magic system of 2nd ed D&D, because I was annoyed by some of the restrictions, they didn't make any sense to mee. But then I realized that everything could be described as skills, so anyone can learn anything with a few restricting. Some abilities require certain skills at a specific level and that makes advancing your skills an adventure all on its own. You can't be a fire mage without understanding fire, the elements of fire or the nature of fire or... well you get the point. But Without talent you won't be very good at anything game changing and such talents is very hard to earn. Earning such skills are an adventure and it will take many adventuring before you are even good enough to be called a novice.
With healing a good system might be to have a character able to be fully healed maybe within about a few hours or a day rather than instantaneously but not comeback from the dead. That might be a better balance between story and gameplay.
Amen to this. Magic as everyday technology is game killing for me. I also feel use of magic by the player just to do it is a further weakening of the effect. Repetition hurts magic rather than making it better
Excellent video!
Thank you for this brilliant essay on the rather banal state of magic in modern gaming. You are absolutely bang on the money with your critique of magic in that it's just too easy. The only gaming system I can recall where magic had a price was Call of Cthulhu where using spells cost sanity. USe enough magic and your character would inevitably go insane. There was a price and it was high indeed which made using magic in that system/setting something that the players had to really think about. WHereas in D&D Mages, Clerics etc toss off miracles of wonder like there's no tomorrow and can easily replenish their power in a matter of hours. It's become route, routine, and while it does have a degree of fun I am now looking at it in a completely different way after viewing this video.
I am a very long term gamer, well over 36 years playing starting with D&D. I've come back to D&D recently but only to 2nd Ed as I still had most of my gear from back in the day. I saw 4th ed and hated it immediately. I've yet to play 5E but after watching your other video on the critique of 5E, well TBH I don't think it's a system I would enjoy. I like the idea of instata death, I like the fact that the classes were never supposed to be balanced. I like the limitations that the system placed on the players. And now watching this video I'm inclined to implement more house rules to my 2E game. MAgic has to have a cost/price otherwise as you have so correctly illustrated, it's no longer MAGIC!
I like some of your point's but i think some simple magic as a practical solution like levels of magic that way you get the lost arts that take sacrifice and still some useful one's to make being a mage actuly work for them
I will add a fumble chart that extends not only to to-hit rolls, but also to any magic cast during combat. Roll a 1 and yours rolling percentile dice against a chart. Might be bad stuff/accidents.
This system has criticals for hits and spells, and characters might get severe injuries, which adds realism. Also the spell system is more open, or at least somewhat different, so it doesn't feel like you have three of these and two of those spells for each day or so.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolemaster Sometimes reality is more mysterious than games, though.
I've been saying this exact thing for...oh, decades now? I suddenly feel like a grown-up!
Haven't "FINISHED" the entire Video yet, but I'm sorry, it seems as though there is no BALENCED way to please you on this kind of thing. You don't like it when Spells cost Mana (or MP), yet you don't like it if they can only cast it so many times a day and then have to rest... you don't like it when Spells are learned by the Character's Job Class, yet you don't like it when the Ability to cost Spells are purchased... I mean, is there ANY way to do Magick which would please you??
This is what I have been planning for my Video Game Project... I would have Mana (MP) which dictates how many Spells you can cast before you can't anymore. It can be Regenerated with Mana Potions, but it doesn't regenerate automatically. I would have an Intelligence Stat, (Magick Power,) which dicates how strong your Attacking Spells are... Normally, Spells can only be used by Magick Job Classes once they reach a certain Level, but they do not learn the Spells by reaching that Level, instead (just like with most all of the Skills in my Game,) they then have to seek out Magick, "Trainers," and pay them to Train you to cast said Spell(s.) However, even after you learn those Spells, you have to Equip them, and you only have a certain number of Slots available. Moreover, learned Spells and learned Skills use the same kinds of Slots, so you will have to choose which Spells and which Skills you want to be able to use at the same time. (Note: You cannot just change these at any time, like in the middle of a Dungon. You have to be at a Town/Village/something like that, a safe place where there are not Enemies.)
Magick can be used by Non-Magick Job Classes, however, you would have to find, or purchase, special Items that are largely mostly Consumable and use them to use the Spells that are contained within. There are three kinds. Magick Stones, which only have one use and are Consumed. They are the most Common of these Items yet still not THAT Common. There are Magick Spheres, which have a few uses, like maybe 5, and then are Consumed. They are Rarer. And then there are Magick Crystals, which have infinite uses, but are extremely Rare. However, these Magick Items still have to be Equipped, as like with Equipment, and you don't really have that many Slots for them... I'm thinking like three at the max.
Does any of that interest you??
I think he was talking about dnd 4e, this is an old video, he says that 5e is better.
Sounds like somebody would love Dungeon Crawl Classics.
Haven't played new D&D yet, but you are absolutely right that modern "wizard" is more like a dude with a bazooka. I myself found an easy way to evade this: make casters pay with hp for using spells and prohibit priests and potions to heal them, as it's not some physical wound but rather mental loss of consciousness. Surely this brings some new problems, like how to define hp lost from enemies' attacks from that lost from casting, but it does solve the initial problem)
please do more videos like this
I enjoyed listening to this quite a bit. Not only because I'm in full agreement, but also because you took the time to make the presentation enjoyable. Thank you. Quite good.
I also try to, although often fail to, present magic in my world as mystical-mysterious-unfathomable. I try to shy away from Energy-Blast spells, and try to draw my players attention towards more ethereal powers. When spells are of the offensive sort I do not have them do physical damage. Instead, the spells' power is over the mind of the opponent, causing them to believe that they've been physically harmed in some way, though to everyone else, the damage is either physically negligible or non-existent. For example, Fire Bolt in my world acts more often than not as follows.
"Myrmidar casts Fire Bolt at the goblin chief."
(Roll a 4 or better on 1d6 Player rolls a 5. He then rolls a 6 for damage (well done))
"The goblin chief is standing at the edge flickering edge of your party's torch light. He squints his eyes and prepares to order his slavish minions, all cackling horribly, puffing up his chest with a gust of air ... when a single stray spark from the Myrmidar's torch lands in his hair... which suddenly bursts into a small but rather unusually fierce little flame. The goblin chief, at first confused, then confounded and then panic struck lets fly with an oafish curse swatting at his head with both hands. His minions look baffled. The blaze on their chief's head seems entirely disproportionate to his reaction as he is now flailing on the ground shrieking (6 damage is a very hefty blow in my world, as Life Points are Strength x Level (and strength is 1 to 6, so a goblin is likely to have around 6 hits or so). After a last horrible shriek the goblin chief lays on the ground staring upward, eyes bulging, mouth drooling with a trickle of blood dripping from his well bitten tongue. Looking up, the cackling minions grab their disabled chieftain, covering his still slightly burning hair in a burly cloth, and with a great commotion scatter into the dark shadows of the cavern tunnels... their clanking foot falls echoing into the distance."
... or some such. In other words, the use of magic effects the mind far more than the body, though there will usually be at least some hint of a physical cause. My style somewhat skirts along with Tolkien's principals of magic, or at least tries to. Magic in my world is not intended to be completely outside of nature - it can not produce the impossible (in most cases) - it is able, however, to enhance nature, reflect it, grow or shrink it, or transform it. Even Gandalf, after all, couldn't just make a magical fire out of nothing, "But I must have something to work on. I cannot burn snow".
Here's a great read on the principals of Tolkien magic: www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/lordoftherings/magic/principles.html
At any rate, yes, yes, and yes, I agree with you completely about how boring magic has become in most games. It is, as you say, exactly as though they had simply gotten their hands on a nuclear powered ray gun that can indefinitely zap monsters with medium intensity beams. Yippdiedo. Who cares?
I also very much like your idea that magic should be threatening as well as mysterious. I have it that magic, especially for lower level MU's, can fumble, and when it does the magic spirals out of the MU's control, producing unexpected, and very often undesirable results. Like ... Myrmidar's Fire Bolt, on a fumble, might have the effect of igniting one of his party member's hair instead of the goblin's, or perhaps his own hand catches on fire, etc.
As for mystic power... I do admit I have what you'd consider to be a standard Mana Point system ... however recuperation is not necessary quite as fast as the standard 8 hours of sleep, and characters might be out of mystic energy for days at a time. I also have it that when Mystic Points are completely lost (-4 or less) the character becomes catatonic, or insane, instead of dying... they are brain dead. Or completely stark raving mad (which can be far worse).
Ok. Anyway, thanks again for the nicely produced video. Well done. Keep up the good work. :)
It's not that you're wrong but you aren't totally right either. Wizards reaching the final levels are WAY more powerful than any non spellcaster and some high level magic does take experience/money/ingredients the biggest example I can think of is "Wish".
I know what you're trying to say but honestly that type of magic system seems more appropriate for things like books or movies. Where you can accurately show such things and not need to worry about balance. Lord of the rings and A song of Ice and Fire are low magic systems where things like Harry Potter and Elder Scrolls are high magic.
An example of a great high magic system would be Avatar the last airbender (the whole world is based around bending, magical beasts, no cost to bend besides training)
An example of a great low magic system would be Full metal Alchemist. (Very few can do alchemy, has to be equal cost,needs a special item that very few have)
DnD can be either magic system, it's up to you as a DM to sort it out with the campaign,setting and players.
Anything only matters as much as people want it to, meaning to say, just because something is incredibly useful, doesn’t make it important to everyone. If magic is common, it doesn’t necessarily mean regular people would attempt to learn it, just like rocket science or robotics in our world. People value more then the most ‘optimal’ path when they decide what they want to do with their life.
I got off topic with my first post, the less successful dnd stories I've been apart all failed. Either the players and dms views of what they wanted caused the game to fail, or dms would make it a cookie cutter kind of game, npcs that don't matter. Or they want a serious story to be epic, and is meant with players not playing their own characters right and be silly or randomly nonsensical. Always clashing with ones that did take it seriously. Part reasons was not figuring what play style the group wanted to play before starting or explaing dm expectations. Causing poor control of infighting and the dm and players putting in far less effert towards the game as a whole, till it collaspsed. I want every char to matter that's why I love bards, in essence your a people person. If you get followers they can do many things for you, information dealings, haggeling. Being a goofer, maybe you have city jobs on the side with them. Carpentry, mercandice salesmen, etc...There is more to a follower class than just raising a army ( something my groups tend to ignore, to my disapointment.) In short like you I see after far more than a cookie cutter experience. I want the universe to be alive, npcs having routines, knowing other npcs etc... if players ask about they could learn more than enough about who likes who or hates who. Things that tick off other citizens. I want to know if i come into this town to my right is this place run by this guy and he is needing supplies to get his shop going today. Or maybe for once his shop is closed because he is out of town. I might catch him in the next town getting supplies etc... . True rpg in tabletop games.
I like that "scientific" and common magic from elder scrolls.
me too i hate when it feels like only npcs and supernatural creatures can use and understand magic, it makes me feel like a outsider and ruins the mage experience
Wondeful presentation! I share many of your thoughts on magic though this video has enlightened me in some ways. As a game designer it definitely sparks my imagination. Thank you!
+p0ck3tp3ar Thank you as well, and best of luck in your game design!
I actually see no problem in magic being mundane and common in a world :/ magic should not always be misterious and umpredictable. That's the idea of magic in our world, but in a world where a dragon could fly over your head in any given time, magic is nothing less then a cellphone for us. Take Tolkien's elves, they find nothing special in their magic (they don't even call it magic) because they understand it. And yes, you can have in a book or in a game character that don't understand magic, the same way in this world there are plenty of people who don't understand quantomechanics. But that doesn't mean that no one should never understand magic.
I agree on a couple of point, but by far the one I found most pointless is "magic is too well balanced" and "life is no fair so a game should not be fair". That's plain wrong. You could have different class with different specialization and fields of experience, but you cannot put ONE god-like creature in a party where the rest of the character can only attack an opponent with sword. Because you'll create a game where ONE person have fun and the rest of the party just stand there and watch.
I like warhammer fantasy magic (before the age of the submarines). It is like okay, cast that fireball, but if you mess up, a demon could find and eat your soul. The magic also starts affecting the caster, bright mages become pyromaniac and gold mages start to turn to statues. I makes magic feel like something powerful and dangerous, not just a flashy light you toss like a handgreande at the enemy.
Sigmarines
its also ruins the game for anyone who wants to be a mage why dont you people just admit you hate wizard players?
Bravo!
I agree with this. I’m about to start a homebrew world after we finish up our current game. I’m seriously toying with the idea of making it crazy low-magic. I know that in the world I’m writing, a moon was destroyed in an apocalyptic catastrophe... probably caused by people overreaching with magic. The result, I think, is a horribly damaged “weave” or whatever you want to call it, meaning that magic is rare and dangerous.
I’m honestly not sure what my group will make of this. But I want magic to be a “gasp!” moment for them. I want them to be the people who rediscover and shape a recovering world. It’s certainly food for thought!
Great video mate - really made me think about my game.
Check out MYTHRAS the RPG. It has many types of magic that are tailored by the GM to a specific power level. It will give you a bunch of ideas for a new 5e game.
swaghauler I will - thank you!
Magic in games is mechanically direct affect, theres no focus or emphasis on how it would work in realities.
For example a fireball is just that, but each spell should have described effects that actually change game play, and not just damage.
For example: fireball should read....damage as usual, but the flash of light, the force of impact, and the debris affect anything vulnerable to physical damage. Then you have not just a fireball, but an experience of having a fireball cast...imagine what would happen in a small area....
I also think you might prefer the magic system in "Fantasy Wargaming" from (I think) Bruce Galloway.
On one hand this gives me the similar feel to call of cthulhu rpg where to learn and quite often to wield magic includes going insane and should never be done lightly. On the other hand magic as science can be done well too, lets say Brandon Sanderson would be excellent example of that. Magic has rules, it is well defined, it has its costs, limitations and creative uses, it might be rare and it does have impact on world around in terms of economics and politics. And I like it just as much.
Sorry, this is a rant and a pet peeve of mine, so I can't help it. Love these videos by the way.
Full health by resting, wtf was my reaction. Either there are healing magic because there is a need for it or there is basically no need for it outside combat action. Suddenly a healer is no longer needed... and this is only the very top of an extremely long list of annoyances and grips with 5th ed. We went back to a modified 2nd ed version with some more house rules that made sense. There at lest things matter.
Wounds should bring you down untill naturally healed in a few weeks, maybe faster with some help and your groups healer will have to work tirelessly to get the whole group standing again. That's how healing should work. Not, oh I'm hurt, lets rest... WTF This is imagined fantasy, not a frigging computer game.
Magic, if prevalent, changes the world so change it. Magic is tricky or hard to learn, maybe it requires a natural ingrained ability. Outside your character's home, magic might not be as accepted, it might be feared, wanted or hunted. Make the world come alive and most of the mechanics of the game don't matter anymore. Besides, skill should matter and scale, not be limited to non proficient or proficient.
A society of magic will have magical solutions to everyday problems, if everyone know a little magic what stops them from learning more. This things are important to learn as it brings the world alive.
And for *** sake, monster should be as filled with flavors as any adventuring group and whats to say that monster don't learn?? I twist every challenge, every monster, simply because it feels right. Magic should never be common, but people might be used to it, so they seek out mages to help with everyday problems, stuff like this gives flavor and helps bring the world to life. This is way local mages have towers, to keep the riffraff out, make it interesting and the wizard might let you in, though you might wish you hadn't tried. And dang it all to hell, no enchanter of items would create generic items, they would but their personal flare in the object. That eldritch sparks flowing over the blade, does 1 point of extra damage, but it is mostly nothing more than a fancy watermark saying this blade was created by Amira the Electric Enchantress. Flavor make the world live.
Pick and choose, use what feels right for your setting, balance it out and play. That's my recommendation.
Something like this might spice thing up a bit.
Randomly meeting a zombie in the forest, is not an issue normally, not until that zombie seems to be immune to normal weapons. Or at least only receives seemingly minimal damage from non blessed weapons. Heal spells might hurt it a bit, but very little other magic will do diddly, because it is a cursed thing. The damned thing is not out to get the party, no it is searching for its lost heart that was stolen, by local necromancer. But the zombie doesn't notice the difference between random hearts, so it goes after them all, just to check. It goes down without a fight once it's heart is returned, but until it do, the damned thing will rise every night, no matter whats been done to it. Figuring this out however might be a bit tricky, especially since people attacked by the thing occasionally turn into zombies too.
Create a band of robber goblins with modified heavy crossbows and make their leader a swashbuckling smart goblin. With the right ambush they'll easy take down most parties and can rob them blind. Especially if they use poisonous knockout gas thrown into the party's fire at night. My players were robbed at several points by a group like this, and they hated those goblins with a passion. But being smart the goblin leader offered a sort of truce, all the party had to do was pay them protection money and the band of goblins would leave them alone. My party still hates those goblins and go out of their way to bash goblins as a result because they might never know if there is a smart one among them or heaven help the party if the goblins have a shaman who deals in spirit magic. A dark and lost art of magic.
My point it make the ordinary special and memorable, it rules feels to limiting then change them. And for f**ing sake cantrips should nor do more than light a candle or move a small object or do 1 point of damage, they are the greatest distraction if used right. Machine gun cantrips what the F***, remove them and add utility cantrips galore. A spellcaster should be able to use X magic per level, so why not give them a spellpool to draw power from, overtaking it causes damage and using it is tiring. But it gives even lower level mages a bit more flexibility. Or maybe use something like this to create hybrid classes to get the feel just right for that idea you had.
It is your game, not the rules, make it your own.
HP is hit points, not health points, having lasting wounds or being sick doesn't necessarily mean you have lower HP, Hit points simply represents how much damage you can take before you are knocked down. Resting gives you enough time to get over the pain, recover your energy, tend to your wounds, etc
i cast STICKS TO SNAKE'S
LET MY PEOPLE GO!!
About magic and being fair. Yes I agree, a great warrior should not be able to compete with a spellcaster capable of wielding godlike magic. But in the time a wizard or sorcerer accrues godlike magic, a fighter should not gain the abilities of a great warrior but gain superhuman, godlike combat ability.
That is not only to make a game fair, but also because mastering magic should be much more difficult and time consuming than it is currently. So it makes sense that mages advance in overall power just as quickly as non-mages. And if you have a setting where superhuman ability is not something you should be able to attain through martial training then maybe godlike magic powers is also not something an ordinary magic user can attain. For an extreme example, think of Discworld, where you have to put ridiculous effort into a spell if it is supposed to be powerful, because just because of that world's laws effort invested and outcome are always correlated, whether you are doing something as pushing a heavy cabinet, or doing something like casting an arcane spell.
If learning magic was that easy, everyone would be doing it, because the outcome always more than justifies the effort put into studying it. How much easier would life be for a farmer, if he can slaughter his oxen, sell their meat and then reanimate their skeletons to continue pulling his plough? How much more powerful would an army be, if you could mass train your soldiers to throw fireballs, rather than wield spears? If magic is any easier to learn and master than through years and years of intense study it would simply become something extremely common, which is the opposite of what you want, as far as I can tell from your video. So I think it only makes sense that a fighter and a wizard of equal level have an altogether equal power level if the fighter isn't actually more powerful.
And looking at it from a pure gameplay standpoint: fair is good is not a thought caused by 1st world pamperedness or political correctness, it is born from a need to design a game where halfway through the game all the martial characters suddenly just start standing around, only using their swords to clean their nails anymore while the magic user player signle-handedly blasts everything away with their magical powers. These players also dedicate several hours a week to the game, you don't want them to sit around being bored out of their mind and feeling useless, just because magic "should" be more powerful.
With that said I agree with a lot of the other points you made. Personally I think if magic is intentionally to designed to make the user more powerful than a non-magical character, the additional power should come with a loss in control and/or safety. Casting more powerful spells should put the mage at equally increasing risk.
I like when magic is risky, dangerous, and unreliable. I also prefer when spells can be interrupted by violence or a lack of concentration.
I like when magic is more free flowing and concrete. Things like Ars Magica and Mage the Ascension where magic is more about understanding the mystical energies and how magic can effect reality.
Hey Esper. Do you still feel you still feel the same about magic in games? If you don't, can we get a new video about this subject? Please don't delete this one so I can re-listen to it when I'm feeling defeated by the mystical magic system I'm writing. Thanks. Have a good one :)
I have a counter-argument: aren't magicians the very being, who understand how magic works? After all, they have spent years studying its mysteries and mastering its intrinsic nature. If they still don't understand how that shit works, why would they use it? Presenting magic in a way that is usable by the player, doesn't mean it is any less mysterious and magical in the game world.
I think the biggest design flaw when creating magic for a role-playing setting is to assume a normal non-magical world and than add wizards to it. In this way magic can only be countered by magic. Don't do it. Either magic is part of the fundamental laws of nature of this world and has the same limitations and execptions like, say, gravity or everyone is going to use it - lets face it: which fighter wouldn't dabble into the arcane arts to get an edge on the battlefield?
As for the balance, I say: Bull. Being physically weaker isn't really that much of a disadvantage, if you can turn invisible and summon hordes of magical creatures (each of which is more useful in combat, than any member of your party). And let me not get started on the things you can do at higher levels (the term "glorious spellcasting master race" gets bandied around for D&D - and not without reason).
Agreed wholeheartedly. Magic simply cannot stay mystical for long unless it's only gods who use it, and you cannot commune with them. The moment a wizard appears in, say, this world, we would quickly begin learning what magic can and cannot do. The magic - pardon the pun - would be gone.
Agreed.
there should be a cost and or risk to casting spells, that go up the as the spells get more powerful. I played a game set Warhammer 40K and every time the caretors used magic there was a 1 in 20 chance they would be posest by a demon or open a rift in the warp
I think the way D&D explains the use of magic kind of debunks a majority of these concerns.
The weave is something that spellcasters can manipulate in order to cause magical things to happen. Sorcerers are "innate" spellcasters and have a knack for magical affinity, Wizards must spend great ammounts of time studying Magic and the weave in order to utilize it. Clerics are granted their powers because they have Devoted their lives to their god and the God has offered them a taste of their power, Paladins draw upon the goodness (or vileness) of their actions that has gained the attention of a deity that wishes to grant power. Rangers and druids are so in touch with nature that they have developed a connection with it that has granted them mastery over nature magic.
Our characters in these games ARE heroic...even at level 1 you are far far far different than the average farmer or the paper boy of your local village.
Besides....if all you're having your characters do is Role play or puzzle solve...that gets just as boring as endless combat. You have to have a balance of combat, story, character progression, and critical thinking in order to have a beautiful campaign.
I've been trying to express my thoughts about the complaints, but your comment brought up all I wanted to say, and more.
Thank you
There are plenty of different RPGs and many of those have a magic system like the one you want. Try Mage: The Ascension (the first edition), Nephilim, Ars Magica, or change magic using Authentic Thaumaturgy (GURPS).
Ars Magica, L5R, World of Darkness: Mage, Dragonlance or even Westeros(GoT) these are all low magic fantasy setting, whose creators probably shared your point of view about magic. Judging from your perspective, I recommend you read the Dragonlance Chronicles. I am sure you will find Raistlin Majere, the archetypical magic user, to your linking (as most of us have). Now back to the point. Fantasy settings/ campaigns such as Eberron, Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk are high magic. Keep in mind that Forgotten Realms is now the default campaign setting for D&D. Old D&D editions (1rst-2nd), Ars Magica and Mage:the Awakening are akin to the concept of low magic. Mages/Magic-Users use to have very powerful spells, but they could cast them very few times, because they were restricted in some way. In 1rst/2nd edition each time a transmutation spell was casted on a player/creature, there was a chance of instant death, called system shock. In Dragonlance there is the Curse of the Magi. In Mage the Awakening there is Paradox. In reality, what you are simply addressing is the concept of low magic vs high magic and the fact that high magic seems to be the dominant trend these days. The reason behind this phenomenon? The mentality of modern players, is derived from personal flavor.
I appreciate all this information, and it is good to know there are so many like-minded game designers out there. While I would be glad to try to some more RPGs, and also feel I must find a way to reconcile D&D with my current perspective. How exactly I will accomplish this task is still very much a work in progress.