Tom Campbell and Dr Iain McGilchrist: A Discussion on the Nature of Reality
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- čas přidán 31. 07. 2024
- This discussion is between two scientists on the nature of our reality and ourselves. It is a stellar example of something significant: two researchers from different fields who have explored truth for decades share their unique perspectives and shared conclusions.
Their approaches to understanding reality may be different, but it is exciting when their conclusions are fundamentally the same - consciousness is fundamental!
“Our talent for division, for seeing the parts, is of staggering importance -second only to our capacity to transcend it, in order to see the whole”
Iain McGilchrist
"Love is not just a nice idea, it is the fabric of our reality" Tom Campbell
00:00:00 Intro
00:06:14 the two brain hemispheres
00:06:40 seeing the worlds in different ways
00:07:36 portals of understanding
00:08:09 paths to truth
00:08:26 intuition and imagination
00:12:40 time as fundamental, space, matter, and the sacred
00:13:22 reductive materialism
00:26:26 deriving physics
00:26:55 probability distributions
00:27:30 speed of light
00:28:18 paradoxes in science
00:29:30 two assumptions of science
00:31:15 double slit experiment
00:31:30 founding of quantum mechanics
00:32:41 consciousness was a known fact
00:34:53 consciousness is fundamental
00:35:12 free will choice
00:57:58 math cannot describe the quality of relationship
01:00:58 logical paradoxes of McGilchrist
01:04:59 scientific understanding for right and left brain
01:13:02 resistance
01:17:03 a computer analogy
www.channelmcgilchrist.com Dr McGilchrist's website with links to his CZcams channel
Dr Iain McGilchrist's books are available in print and on Kindle on Amazon The Matter With Things: Our Brains, Our Delusions, and the Unmaking of the World (November 9, 2021)
The Master And His Emissary: The Divided Brain and the Making of the Western World (March 26, 2019)
Thomas W Campbell paper: On Testing the Simulation Theory - Cal Tech
users.cms.caltech.edu/~owhadi/...
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Wonderful conversation by two brilliant people, held together beautifully by Donna. Thank you.
Brilliant conversation, thank you and look forward to future interactions.
Very interesting. The Master and his Emissary, blew me away. Absolutely beautiful book, in its prose and poetry and content, some of which was beyond my present capacity to understand. And My Big TOE also massively challenged, inspired and reset me. So a very exciting thing to see you both together. I see differences in framing, in perspective, possibly in meaning, but also the connecting strands seem to me the important ones, connection, love, consciousness as fundamental, rationality in charge as madness, and much more. I would have liked a longer meeting but thank you both, for the unquantifiable and therefore unobtainable and uncontrollable, gifts you have both given me, and continue to give me. Huge love.
How can Lain's book be beautiful and amazing if you said you couldn't understand some parts of it, "beyond my capacity" you said. Shouldn't the theory be simple and elegant like e=mc2. Tom's theory is like that (simple and elegant) and that's why I follow it.
@@Pinseeker01 Tom comes across as extremely arrogant in his position, seeing as how simplistic his "explanation" is and it doesn't actually EXPLAIN anything, which he ADMITS when pressed, yet he'll harp on for waaaaay too long about it as if it were the ultimate truth before being challenged to clarify things. It's laughable hearing him arrogantly claim he's solved all paradoxes.
"Simple and elegant" is utterly subjective and tied to your level of understanding anyway.
@@ambientjohnny Tom was giving an overview with the expectation that if the listener wants to look into his model further he will look deeper into Tom's work. Tom can't possibly clarify every nuance in such a ridiculously short amount of time, especially with Lain getting his position too and yes interrupting.. Lain expecting answers to each of Tom's points in that short time was disappointing at best. You'd either have to read his 3 books, yes 3 books! (His theory is not that simple actually) or watch one of his multiple-part workshops like this one which are many hours and parts.
czcams.com/play/PLf8bCCRJkXgyZREAaZUOm5zR1lcnhjIvH.html
@@Pinseeker01 Iain INTERRUPTING??? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. It was lucky he even got one word in during Tom's arrogant bulldozing approach.
@@Pinseeker01 So what happened to the "simple and elegant" explanation you wanted? Now it suddenly takes 3 books eh.
Fantastic discussion, Tom as usual struggling with giving short answers, not meant as a negative it's just how it is, and he knows it too :) I could have listened to this discussion going on and deepening for hours! It says something when "long form" interviews feel too short and rushed. I really do hope that we get a continuation of this discussion, perhaps it would help to agree on a couple of areas or points that could be further drilled down into, based on this initial "exposure" as I'm pretty sure both gentlemen will have deep and interesting questions and ideas popping up in their brilliant minds for days after this conversation. Thank you so much Tom and Iain, Iain being a new mind to me that I definitely will want to hear more from. Thank you thank you!
@chuck F 😂 They both seemed to be very eager and enjoying the discussion. That's why I hope there would be a continuation 😊
I find it wonderful that many approaches to the same understanding of the nature of reality arise. Each approach draws a resonant group of people in the direction of discovery and understanding.
What an absolutely beautiful introduction to these two extraordinary gentleman.
Very intersting discussion. I wonder why so many scientists do not realize such obvious thing: the quantum mechanics proved the virtuality of our reality 100 years ago, and even now they don't get it. Amazing and sad fact. Thank you, Tom for opening eyes of the masses to this simple truth!
Maybe, those who dont get it are not scientists..... is idiot a word????
@@justinclifton55 Why the name calling and hate? What theory do you have that is better? Tom may not be able to prove his theory in a lab setting, but his theory has no holes and it makes more sense than any other theory that I've heard........
It's because in the pursuit of the truth about reality, intelligence isn't the only thing in play. A lot of scientists REFUSE to know in the face of the evidence, because to them, the implications are unpalatable. What comes to their minds is God and religion, and a lot of them dislike the same.
Consciousness is very convincing
Because todays scientists would have to renounce their life's work, theories and beliefs and powerful positions. The scientist today are the high priests of yesterday. Most of society hangs on their every word when it comes to science. Most of them will go kicking and screaming when the paradigm shift occurs.
This was great, thank you. I loved seeing them both genuinely interested/intrigued in each other's perspectives, and great perspectives in both!
Awesome discussion, would like to see Ian come back for more!
I think it was clear he couldn't wait to get away.. .. embarrassing to watch.
Since MBT has become my mother tongue, I find it hard to listen to others. I have found it to be an amazing model, and it has answered all my questions so far.
It's certainly good, and yes this is a virtual reality and consciousness and information are fundamental, but there are some things it doesn't answer:
1. Given that the LCS/Source is finite, inside time (temporal), and non-mystical, it's existence has to be accounted for. In other words, it still doesn't solve the problem of ultimate origins. Only if the LCS is infinite, outside time (eternal) and mystical, aka the traditional God, does this problem go away.
2. It doesn't explain experience, or qualia. Yes, it's all fundamentally information, being a virtual reality, but the information structures and constructs are represented by experience, just like bone is clothed with flesh; e.g. the taste of chocolate, the feeling of hardness and solidity, the smell of a rose, the sound of a piano, the appearance of the color red, the sensation of a headache, the emotion of sadness, the thought of a friend, etc.
That's why for me, MBT is a springboard and not the ultimate theory, and after years of research, I've gone back to the traditional God, albeit with many of the elements of MBT added in, like quantum mechanics and virtual reality, consciousness and information being fundamental, and consciousness being all there is (idealism).
Basically, now the LCS for me is infinite, eternal, and mystical - God. :)
That is exactly my dilemma - back to square one for me. It might be stubbornness or egoistic but I need to KNOW.
Thank you for this interview! Very informative and entertaining! Have a great Sunday!
Intro goes on for way too long, my goodness!
Great interview, I look forward to more. ❤
I so appreciate Ian's respect for imagination. I have come to believe and think that it is through our imagination that we shape our individual reality (realities).
Imagination is powerful and wondrous
Beautiful talk. Thank you!
Whoa...Mind successfully blown.
...and... I M has stated (and T C agreed) yet another thing I've always felt to be very true...which is that what we "refrain from doing" is every bit as important...(and in my view, possibly MORE important) than what we can "do" to "save the world". And I have a "hunch" that this world can and would save itself if there were far fewer people trying to figure out...usually in a left hemisphere dominant way...how to "fix" the problems that it, itself, has created.
"Doing" motivated by love (not fear) is the only "doing" that can help turn this "sinkin' ship" around. 😆...and if we can't "do" out of love, we should get out of the way.
🙏💜
uuuh uuuuh i am ready for this! Tom... keep doing it! thanks!
What a wonderful conversation! Thank you 👩🏼🚀
You are perhaps the most brilliant person alive Tom. Thank you for all your work and efforts and Thank you for sharing it with the world.
Your theory has so many parallels and some differences with Indian Mysticism:
Reality - One Existence, divided into two, Player and the Computer
Player - Has no data/Is not data, so it can not be experienced - Called Shiva or Krishna or Ataman or Brahman, also called the masculine principle, as it can not give birth to any experience, but will only watch what is generated in the computer. But this is the substrate upon which the computer or the data/information will manifest.
Computer - Called Shakti/Devi/Maaya - Is all that will ever be experienced, all the data streams are generated in this part of existence. It is also described as Naad, or vibrations, that get organised into complex structures to give rise to complex information.
Avatars - Mostly referred to as Vishnu's Avatar
Game/World in which an Avatar finds itself is called - Loka or Lokas, Our Earth is called Mrityu-loka, and is one of thousands of Lokas found in the computer, as the Avatars found in this part of the Game/World/Simulation always dies/disintegrate after some lifetime delta t. Death is called Mrityu in India.
Indian Mystics have always said that the world is a dream, and a very personal dream, that exist only in the minds of Avatars, and no where else.
There is one difference though, The Player or the Consciousness is not actually playing the game, as per Indian Mystics, Rather Consciousness or Player is actually just watching it like a movie. All playing is done by the avatar, and the avatar itself is responsible for making its own decisions, the Player or Consciousness simply watches it, is never involved in the game of Avatars. In order to show that The Consciousness Shiva and the Computer Shakti are one and the same, mystics have devised the concept of Nataraja... Shiva dancing. Its like the Consciousness and the computer are related to each other in the same way, as a Dancer is related to its Dance. You can not have Dance without the Dancer, and Dancer without the dance.
Outstanding! ❤️
Good discussion...shame about the time, it was just getting going...hopefully more discussion in the future. Thanks to all involved.
absolutely fantastic
Amazing interview. I see Tom's TOE is catching on more and more amongst big names in psychology and cognitive science. It's great because we happen to live in a time where the zeitgeist is moving in the direction of primordial consciousness. It's exciting.
Thanks. The description of consciousness occupying our bodies as avatars is the same as what Hoffman describes with his VR set. Same with Kastrup, as the universe working through him via the "diamond." I think they're trying to dig at the same answers but from the lens/language they know best, that of maths and physics.
Hoffman and BK…my favs! Just starting to listen to these two gentlemen.
I was listening to kastrup only this morning (Nov 2023) and through all his words I was thinking - he’s describing a virtual reality just like Tom!
Delightful discussion.
Amazing talk
Very cool!
If you guys share again I suggest you examine the subtle difference between their metaphysics: McGilchrist's Idealistic dualism? (if you will) vs Campbell' Idealistic monism.
How can a non-physical consciousness be more fundamental if it can not exist without the physical?- If I follow McGilchrist.
How do we genuinely and sincerely honor Mother Earth if she's only a simulation? Raise my quality?
39 minutes in and Iain continues to become impatient for the details. His body language is amusing. "I got all that, Tom." He is probably not someone who is accustomed to having to listen to the whole speech.
Obrigado 🙏
Somebody should get Iain McGilchrist and Gabor Matè together to talk. They have similar ideas about the ways the physical body and the psychological/mental interact.
I love seeing Tom - get EMOTIONAL 😀 TOM I LOVE IT WHEN YOUR " "FLAVOR" comes out, love to see you smile & laugh, Tom ,love you sir.
I’m only three minutes in, but WOW this lady has a nice asmr voice! 🌸✨
Thank you!!!!!!🙃🙃
I mite be too "mushy", but you 3, are giving me
A " Warm Fuzzy Feeling"
As the Beatles sang-
" Love is all you need"
loved it..thanks so much for getting in touch with those amazing minds and put together the ideas and conclusions, needs open roads for the deep knowledge, you are a good trucker ;) ...had you considered Joscha Bach? could be interesting ;) ... i loved to heard one year after that you are not integrating the concept of time in the main formula and just consciousness and evolution...sadly the last one is going delayed bc the first one is being confused by many lower entropy around.. with intention or by consequence.... :/ but the origin of consciousness is far beyond human understanding since it is before their memories so lets see what is next...evolution is not going to stop bc small particles doesnt interact right :))
I worked 17 years with people with Dementia, you cannot argue with them because they percieve reality different. You need to enter their view to understand their behavior.
There are the distilled wisdom of people who have lived fully.
Amongst those that I find the most influential to me are Dr. Tom Campbell, Dr. Iain McGilchrist, Our own dear Freya in our Oera Linda, Psychologist Dr. Jerry Marzinsky, (Yes dear, monsters exist and no, your thoughts are not your own.), evolutionary psychologist Dr. Edward Dutton, (The Jolly Heretic, CZcams.), and Historian Dr. David Jacobs' work "Walking Among Us."
And lately, Chat GPT, the artificial intelligence. It is astonishing, and a work in progress.
What other bon bons await me before all is revealed when I "die"?
He claims to disagee with Kastrup but later says "We are all pieces of a whole."
1 and 0 are two diametrically opposed forces.
Expressed in a sine wave one is above moving forward.
The 0 is down moving backwards.
It is a circular system. There is no point in a circle.
Fantastic discussion between brilliant scientists. Thanks. I would like to know from both perspectives how changes to the brain can happen (and measured) by interaction with eg. Some of the energy modalities of psychotherapy (ie. EFT) by interfering with somatic and energy systems in the body/individual consciousness. I understand that the ultimate goal of the avatar/individual - that of evolving - is not fully understood and that explains the current situation. I am however still perplexed by the free will vs outcome of slit experiments in terms of the position of the observer and the observed. To me it seems (deductive reasoning) that there is no or limited free will that can lead to decisions (another set of rules) and that the avatar/individual is run by some dataset of which the individual is not ware of which can manifest or cannot manifest (determinism). I also want to understand the observer in more detail and as well as the interface between the observer and conciousness. (I might have to revisit my understanding of the double slit experiments….I understand that Tom is now working on an experiment related to that). Thanks also for the correction on the falsities of right and left brain modalities. That meant a lot to me as I never could do the math (or rather was never interested in the mathematical side but knew things that I for instance had to explain to cicil engineers. I always felt stupid/uneducated - and only some of the scientists/engineers that I proved wrong over a period of time, later, thought that I am ‘intelligent’ enough to scrutinize their designs and valued my opinion. Lots of reading for me to do and I am thankful for the pointers to the flaws of certain ‘facts’ that I now can eliminate to get a clear understanding.
A ten foot high jump seems to be something, species-wide, that we can't do. This is where physicalists tend to feel comfortable in their views that it's a kind of genetic determinism based on practical evolutionary tradeoffs but at the same time, in some way, any viable idealism probably needs to be able to explain such high correlations between individuals and their genes (or have a story for what it is that happens, such as transformations via kundalini and the like, which would lead to a loosening or decoupling of at least some of those constraints).
A dialogue (leading to discussion) between Tom and Wolfgang Smith is long overdue. How can we make this happen?
Mathematics is not only useful for describing quantity, it's useful for manipulating the quantitive aspect of understood reality.
I am Iain fan and was very glad to know Tom gonna deep in more. what is the fastest way to get famlier Tom views?
@@beingnonbeingincludesexistence tnx...start to watch his MBT 2016 LA course.
@@yosivin1 those are also great, good luck💪🏿.
The Marseilles Workshop from Tom is the best thorough run through of Tom’s model. The first minute is a person speaking French, but then Tom comes and it is all in English from there.
czcams.com/play/PLf8bCCRJkXgyZREAaZUOm5zR1lcnhjIvH.html
His 3 books My Big Toe are in audio form. That's how I got the whole story.
1:19:16 - The more I listen the less disagreement I actually hear with Hoffman. If anything I think Hoffman tends to come up with analogies, such as Grand Theft Auto, which might help a complete layman dial in on some of what he's saying but then that same tool messes it up because it's not a perfect analogy (I remember Annaka Harris having this complaint when she had him on Sam Harris's Waking Up / Making Sense podcast). For example with the idea of a 'virtual reality headset', I almost think the better analogy might be that quantum collapse might be an individual selection process than an external event and thus we're swimming in a sort of abstract void that we consolidate into sharp contrast through sensory processing. Hoffman seems to suggest that the primal void that has no physical matter (maybe thought of as higher-dimensional spaces and objects / relationships but no actual time or matter as we'd think of it) is more real but that we do something akin to such an extreme degree of cherry picking, for reasons such as survival under very harsh / competitive / Darwinian constraints where time required for measured thought = death, that what we're left with is filtered down to something akin to a computer desktop UI.
The other place where Hoffman says something that resonates well for me - the idea of two conscious agents in communication binding to a third as a contract between the two, sounds very much like Putnam's functionalism with multiple realizability. That both rhymes with what I've seen in the esoteric world as far as what gets described as both egregores and transpersonal entities and also subsumes the complex makeup of an individual where it seems like dream life is us decompiling into lower-level agents (similar story with DMT) and handles well the suggestion that our minds and bodies are made up with similar feeling / thinking beings on lower levels of detail of whose subjective reality we don't directly experience (something Hoffman brought up in an IAI interview at the end where two hemispheres of a split brain patient claimed not to notice a difference when the corpus collosum was cut).
I'd love to hear Iain and Tom hit the topic of Darwinian game theory and multipolar traps (eg. 'Moloch'). It seems to fit Ian's take on left-brained pathologies well and it really seems to be the core evil that leaves so many nations, localities, systems, etc. being less than the sum of their parts (in some cases significantly less).
Thanks again Tom!
When is the next talk between Iain and Tom?
Up to 46:24
TOM, YOU SAID IN ONE OF YOUR VIDEOS, THAT TWO PEOPLE MAY HAVE THE SAME EXPERIENCE, BUT BECAUSE OF INTERPRETATION, THEY MAY A DIFFERENT EFFECT. WOULD YOU FURTHER EXPLAIN THIS?
The reality that we perceive comes to us in the form of our sense data. Our senses continually feed our brains a stream of data from the environment. Everything we see, hear, touch, smell, or can sense in any way is converted into nerve impulses and sent to the brain for interpretation and storage. This sense data is objective, but the interpretation of it is entirely subjective. We take this data received from our senses and then, based on our memories, experiences, fears, and traumas, we turn that data into information. It is that subjective information that we use to inform our subsequent free will choices. It is these choices which create our reality. Think of “the data” as “what the camera sees” or the actual data stream gathered by our senses. On the other hand, “the information” is individually created by us (consciously or unconsciously) from “the data”, and it will always be different for each and every person, even if they receive the same (or similar) data streams.
A relevant example here is the parable of the blind men describing an animal called an elephant which none of them had ever previously encountered. Each of the blind men touches a different part of the elephant and reaches a very different conclusion on the true nature of what “an elephant” is. They describe it variously as: a “wall” (the side), a “thick snake” (the trunk), a “fan” (the ear), a “pillar, like a tree” (a leg), or a “rope” (the tail). They describe the elephant based solely on their interpretation of their limited sense data, their subjective personal experience and their descriptions differ wildly from each other. The moral of the parable is that humans have a tendency to claim absolute truth based on their limited, subjective experience, as they ignore other people’s limited, subjective experiences, which may be equally true for them. In many versions of this story, the blind men even end up attacking each other over the “falseness” of the others’ beliefs! Obviously, this would be a close-minded fear-based response. Imagine the bigger picture of reality that the men would have had if they had shared their findings with each other in a spirit of open-minded skepticism, curiosity and a true desire to learn and grow. This approach would LOWER entropy and would best support thriving life for everyone! Since it’s always and only OUR subjective interpretation of “the data”, you can see why Tom continually reminds us that open-minded skepticism is critically important for understanding our larger reality.
As individuated units of consciousness we all receive a data stream (in this virtual reality that data comes in the form of sight, sound, smell, taste and touch), but that data has to be interpreted by consciousness to create information. Because we can interpret the same data differently, reality is subjective to the observer.
👍👍👍👍👍👍♥️👍👍👍👍
The "RIGHT" SIDE , as Tom says- has "more" information. It's linked directly to the FUNDAMENTAL SOURCE of ALL > that we/ most people, call
GOD.
The resistance.....When Iain McGilchrist presuppose the resistance in matter for the world to appear he does not count the supersensual world into it. The many NDE suggest such a realm and here for sure no materialisme is involved at least not in the way we know it here. What comes into being here and what IS here is pure thought, feelings and will.
1:21:18 - Our culture looks like a bit of an ant mill in this perspective. There's a certain prevailing outlook that life is just a competition over genes, that anyone whose not killing it at the social climbing and achievement excellence game has nothing to say, that even those who have killed it at that game who might have something to say about spirituality have just a strange side-dalliance that apparently isn't harming their ability to succeed but probably doesn't help it thus no one wants to hear about it, and it seems like the whole focus is an obsession on status and social-climbing with totalizing social conformity anywhere below that. In that sense it seems like a system that's almost perfectly locked in to the centrality of Darwinian competition over cooperation, that cooperation just seems like something that happens when there's either a huge economic boom with little to no zero-sum elements or when there's some outside force that the locality or nation is at war with. I almost don't think there's really anything any given one of us can do about that other than do our best not to help in making it worse, otherwise - without academic credentials and sometimes even with - we aren't deemed to be worth listening to.
The elf does not know that the player that plays it making the choices isnon physical, it doesn't know thst the computer is non physical. The elf is the elfs reality, the environment and the entities that it experiences takes up the entirety of its present experience, the awareness that controls the avatar has no awareness of its actual situation - being outside of the game as a computer player.
Data is not just stuff. Data reveals and defines information. Information understood is knowledge. What then is understanding?
No.
Tom clearly defines all fundamental words.
Data is data. Blind, raw, occurring data. The data stream happens.
As we 'interpret' data we create 'information'.
Understanding relates to fidelity.
Understanding is how you interpret your data stream defined by your past experiences. Is different person to person.
the host is doing asmr here
Wow, so I'm a cognitive architecture in a simulation & I have definitive proof. Should I write a book or speak to a lawyer or perhaps try to speak to some scientists? I would have thought I was crazy. I now know I'm not. This was all planned out to study how to train A.I. through studying consciousness.
He likes metaphors but there is only a whole? Metaphors are comparisons. There are quantities there are aspects but only a whole?
What is the name of the consciousness entity that is playing the Avatar character in a lifetime experience here on this earth. When you die surely you become the entity that is playing the game with the Avatar that is the current life experience. Or is consciousness one massive entity that is learning from an infinite number of lifetimes across countless parallel universes. You never explain this!!!!
Einstein used pseudo-tensors. Pseudo-tensors are not a valid mathematical concept.
Emerging empirical evidence does not support the Big Bang theory, but does support the steady state Electrical theory where Birkland currents dominate the cosmos. (Electro-magnetism is 30exp30 times stronger than gravity and cannot be dismissed.)
Models are built to be broken, not defended.
To me, the larger consciousness system just makes up stuff to support the narrative as it sees fit. The more we observe, the more the LCS has to create the underlying narrative.
To illustrate, here is a representation of the cell.
czcams.com/video/wJyUtbn0O5Y/video.html
I assert that it was not necessary for the Larger Consciousness System to generate this complexity *Before* we chose to look.
Only two dimensions are necessary to be generated to complete the illusion of reality.
Very disappointing. The attacks on Kastrup and Hoffman were vague and misrepresented their positions. When interviewed, they both agree with Kastrup-Hoffman to their face and audience, now they both agree Kastrup-Hoffman are wrong! McGilchrist says math is left brain and materialist while Campbell's theory depends on collapse of a wave function, yet they completely agree. Campbell often leaves out the metaphor part when he says reality IS a computer, but claims dissociation (something that really happens in the material AND conscious world) is just a story Bernardo made up because he likes it! McGilchrist, spent the year of Covid ignoring Idealism, selling his book to materialists interested in how the brain physically works when the Idealist message could have helped so many. I'm, sure it was in his contract not to mention Idealism and sell more books, but he didn't have to sign the contract (being quite rich from his first book). I think Bernardo Kastrup would not compromise ideals for book sales like McGilchrist did. I'm not trying to start something but neither of these people would dare disagree Kastrup to his face! They would be informed where their thinking went wrong and why.
That would be great to see!
“…intellectually bankrupt, morally bankrupt and spiritually bankrupt vision which we’ve been fed assiduously for the last half a century or more…”
“…I was the same bone-headed physicist that most physicists are…”
No thank you.
"My husband is a machine!" is what an unfulfilled wife discovers when she joins a community theater company. An affair is almost certain to follow. - Just the observations of a pit orchestra musician.
Yes, good point.
Iain’s patience has to be commended. Tom is quite painful to listen to
silly
How ?