Was Jesus a Failed Apocayptic Messiah? Standing in the Shadow of Schweitzer
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- čas přidán 5. 05. 2024
- Blast from the past...I gave this lecture in 2007 at an academic conference. Don't miss the Q&A at the end. In these intervening years, although I have further developed these views, by and large I remain in agreement with the position I present here.
I thought some of you might enjoy both the speaker and the content--looking back!
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__________________________________________
The best-laid schemes o' mice an' men gang aft agley
מהמלים בקשר את המלים ועל סמך המלים
Retired Prof. of Religious Studies/Christian Origins
The University of North Carolina at Charlotte
About Dr. James D. Tabor: jamestabor.com/about-dr-tabor/
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Even though I wasn’t raised in a faith tradition, I think the The knowledge that you share is important. I listen carefully, and I do not mind the length of the videos, the details and the information and your mannerisms make your videos a pleasure to experience. I am impressed because you don’t just say something is because you think it should be that way you take the time to break it down and explain exactly why you think something is more likely than something else. And the fact that you let us know when and why you changed your mind about something that you had thought differently about prior. I am glad that you are preserving your scholarship and part of you to experience and learn from.
Jesus is about helping the poor not worship santa claus
You are doing a great job taking the academic and making it understand to the regular public.
yes i agree, so understandable
Thanks so much for making your speeches, lectures, and course material available to the public. Your lifetime of scholarship is much appreciated. I have read (studied) all your books, but I still gain insights from your CZcams posts, such as the one I'm currently viewing, "Death and Afterlife: Jesus' Empty Tomb? Just the Facts Please!" Making your scholarship publicly available is a great service to other scholars and to autodidacts everywhere!
Thank you Dr Tabor. As someone raised in a family and home where dispensational Premillennialism was important, your work has helped me in part as I stopped believing.
Hey Dr Tabor.
I've already started enjoying the shroud video...🙂
CZcams made me take it down...as some of the music I don't own...I might reedit...but no time right now.
@@JamesTaborVideos , looking forward to it, thank you 🙂
@@JamesTaborVideosyou sir are a true scholar your research is beyond words I wish teachers would take your approach your logical and perspectives are so informative thanks for your work
Great lecture. Thank you for posting Prof Tabor!
Really enjoyed this whole lecture
Much hair 😊 but the brain under , I wish I had it ! I hope that you write your memories so we can give your work to our grandchildren ! Always more input everytime. Merci du Québec! ,😊
Interesting material, thanks
Paul was a first rate conman.
On another topic: The Disputation of 1263 and the words and wisdom of the Ramban are profound. Looking for the coming of the True Mashiach. Baruch HaShem.
...find a Really comfy chair...the Hebrew Meshiach is far-Longer-Overdue than Jesus H. Christ...😊
Thank you. So very interesting.
Sounds like a sweet conference
Thanks guys
This was excellent. I remember reading Schweitzer for the first time circa 2008 and was blown away at his analysis, especially growing up Pentacostal. Please keep posting more material like this regarding the historical origins of Christianity.
thanks for the video!
In the book of Acts 22:2 verse the writer wrote that apostle Paul spoke in Hebrew language but the writer went on to keep writing what apostle Paul said in the Hebrew language but writing what he said on in the Greek language
There are two Messiahs (Sukkah 52 - Talmud, 3 Enoch 45) and two timelines that could usher in the Messianic Age (Sanhedrin 97B - Talmud).
Moshiach Ben David was not welcomed by Israel during 2nd temple Judea.
Psalm 118:26 --> Luke 13:35
That's why additional time was added (Sanhedrin 97B). Instead of Rome ending Israel's sacrifices (Daniel 9:27), Israel ended Rome's sacrifices during the 2nd temple period (Josephus - Wars of the Jews 2.17.2).
Daniel's 70th week is still a future event.
Matthew 24:15-16-->
Daniel 9:27-->
2 Thessalonians 2:4-8
I somewhat go with the 1000 years reign already came and gone- hidden and destroyed records and writings but the Archeological evidence is out there.
Look into the topic - we are in the Little Season😅
Nope
@@onejohn2.26. 🤔
I agree. And it makes the most sense when you look at the Orthodox Church and their respect and honor they give to the saints, who played a large part in that.
@AnndenMark
So, you think that the 1,000 year reign of Christ has already happened, comma, seriously, or am I totally misunderstanding you?
@@onejohn2.26. Something more happened in those times, that is hidden from us. Something really big. Our history is mostly fabricated. And something really evil is pulling all the strings in our society in current year, and maybe longer. That is what I know. Something also really crazy happened in the 1800s.
Was that Gerd Lüdemann at the end of Q/A?
In Mark 5 and Mark 7 Jesus spoke in the Aramaic language so a person would ask why didn't the Greek writer of the book of Mark continue writing on in the Aramaic language that Jesus spoke in if they were able to write two Aramaic words that Jesus spoke on in the Aramaic language?
Jesus came right on time and now sits as the judge of the living and the dead. And he will judge you for your unbelief.
Ad 70 was the coming.
Why did the Prof refer to bodies in relation to resurrection? The Bible teaches resurrection from the dead - where does its teach resurrection of corpses? What am I missing
I don't want to speak for Dr. Tabor but my assumption is because Isaiah 26:19 specifically states that the "neveilah" (carcass/corpse/body) will rise from the dust. Although, as with most things, there are probably multiple interpretations of what that actually means.
@@cracker3932
Chap. 26. Here the song is of Judah (spring). "Open ye the gates (spring equinox) that the righteous nation (summer) may enter in. In the Lord Jehovah (Jah-Jahveh) is everlasting strength, which supplies all necessaries, both for summer and winter. The Lord inaugurates righteousness, and brings down the lofty ones (the winter constellations begin to set in spring).
In the night (winter) I desired the Lord (Jahveh = summer), and now he is come - is here, and I (the Sun) will seek him early (v. 9). The wicked will not learn righteousness, though favored; when the Lord's (Moses') hand is up, they will not see; i.e., when the Sun rises on the spring equinox, the winter constellations are above the horizon, and invisible; but when his hand is down, i.e., after sunset, they rise and become visible. "They shall be ashamed," i.e., shall show themselves.
Though other lords (Adonim) have had dominion over us (v. 13), thou, O Lord (Jahveh), wilt now ordain peace (summer) among us. Thou hast destroyed the "cruel lords" (19,4), and increased the nations - winter is passed, summer has come. Thus, in time of trouble, i.e., when the wicked Lord (Adoni) has us, then, Lord (Jahveh), we must seek thee (v. 16). But, O Lord (Jahveh), thou knowest we have been in trouble, in great pain, like as a woman that draweth near her time; yes, Lord, we have travailed in great pain, and yet, who'd have thought it? "we have, as it were, brought forth wind" - the changing monsoon of spring; we haven't wrought any salvation as yet, for vegetation is but just starting (v. 18). Thus, do I explain this hitherto unexplained, ridiculous and obscene passage of holy, or sunny writ!
In spring, Nature is renewed; the dead, as it were, come to life, awake and sing; for behold the Lord (Jahveh) cometh - is coming (v. 21).
Anastasis always means raising bodily
@@cracker3932
Chap. 26. Here the song is of Judah (spring). "Open ye the gates (spring equinox) that the righteous nation (summer) may enter in. In the Lord Jehovah (Jah-Jahveh) is everlasting strength, which supplies all necessaries, both for summer and winter. The Lord inaugurates righteousness, and brings down the lofty ones (the winter constellations begin to set in spring).
In the night (winter) I desired the Lord (Jahveh = summer), and now he is come - is here, and I (the Sun) will seek him early (v. 9). The wicked will not learn righteousness, though favored; when the Lord's (Moses') hand is up, they will not see; i.e., when the Sun rises on the spring equinox, the winter constellations are above the horizon, and invisible; but when his hand is down, i.e., after sunset, they rise and become visible. "They shall be ashamed," i.e., shall show themselves.
Though other lords (Adonim) have had dominion over us (v. 13), thou, O Lord (Jahveh), wilt now ordain peace (summer) among us. Thou hast destroyed the "cruel lords" (19,4), and increased the nations - winter is passed, summer has come. Thus, in time of trouble, i.e., when the wicked Lord (Adoni) has us, then, Lord (Jahveh), we must seek thee (v. 16). But, O Lord (Jahveh), thou knowest we have been in trouble, in great pain, like as a woman that draweth near her time; yes, Lord, we have travailed in great pain, and yet, who'd have thought it? "we have, as it were, brought forth wind" - the changing monsoon of spring; we haven't wrought any salvation as yet, for vegetation is but just starting (v. 18). Thus, do I explain this hitherto unexplained, ridiculous and obscene passage of holy, or sunny writ!
In spring, Nature is renewed; the dead, as it were, come to life, awake and sing; for behold the Lord (Jahveh) cometh - is coming (v. 21).
@@tractordriver8950
See Isaiah 47.3, where the Sun rises from winter, not as a man (barren earth) but as a woman (nurture). This is the same place where Jesus wears the golden girdle of Aphrodite around his "paps".
Anastasius (Latinized) or Anastasios (Greek: Αναστάσιος, romanized: Anastasios) is a masculine given name of Greek origin derived from the Greek word ἀνάστασις (anastasis) meaning "resurrection". Its female form is Anastasia (Greek: Αναστασία).
No one can know about Jesus and Christianity with out knowing of the ""Way"", that is it all was first and foremost a path to a transcendent condition (heaven) which is the reason for all assertions by Jesus. ""The kingdom of God is within""
The thing's that are written in the New Testament are based on what the writer's based them on in their language that they wrote them in
Well the truth now is that the kabbalist are using the book of Revelation as a playbook to bring about their Messiah because they denied Jesus😮
Messiah aka Mesiah is two words of Mes (son of) and Iah (Jupiter). The savior comes as spring sun every year. Something like Rameses aka son of Ra (the sun).
Yes.
It’s an interesting subject. How did Christianity, which began as an Israelite messianic movement, survive the first century? Do the Hebrew scriptures (Old Testament) justify post-Nicaea Christianity?
Tanor, the 8th Man!
Still timely comments about the danger of Zionism and GWB’s words re: apocalyptic views of the rebuilt temple, eh?
The interest of Americans on Christianity and Jesus Christ is everlasting and evolving. It seems with the weaking of believe, it is becoming, instead, historical and academic! It is maybe not a coincidence but a substitution?
The Dead Sea Scrolls. The New Testament. Will the real messiah please stand up?
which messiah? not just one
I have my doubts about the generalization of the renowned apocalyptic thesis on Schweitzer, because the foundation is that John the Baptist was also an apocalyptic preacher. This is what the synoptic gospels state, but not what Josephus wrote about him. Thus, Jesus could likely have had a more political approach than an apocalyptic eschatological one. Where does the apocalyptic agenda of the three evangelists come from? I think we all know that: from Paul.
Was Jesus a failed apocaliptic messias?
All, literally ALL historycal facts, says: YES.
Let the faith-FULL Christianity go theirs ways.
"As for me and my house - we serve YHUH"
Balls to the smalls
Same thing with the gospels of Matthew Mark Luke and John
K
Is this a discussion regarding the apocalypse? Wether it has happened already or if it’s in the future? Wanted to know before I invest all this time on a topic I don’t care to hear about…… also I’m pretty sure the title should say (apocalyptic) 🤷♂️
It's about whether we should regard Jesus as a 'failed apocalyptic prophet.' Many academic historians think he was. At that period of history, *many* Jews/Jewish sects were forecasting that God would intervene in history to defeat and kick out the Romans and herald a new age of Gods kingdom on earth. An apocalyptic vision. Jesus can be seen as forecasting a real kingdom of God coming imminently, an apocalypse. It didn't. Do we think he was a failed prophet, a failed Messiah, or something else? James also referenced and celebrates the famous Albert Schweitzer who heralded a new era of studying Jesus in a historical manner
No, it's not. It's a lecture on the historical Jesus, not the theological one. Glad if I could be of help.
The Roman people have not yet been destroyed.
Rome fail ages ago. What rock are you under?
@@Giopowered the Romans are millions of people today. Just because the Roman empire fell, it doesn’t mean there are no Romans today. We don’t call them Roman’s today.
God does not feed the dogs and swine with pearls.😮
The dogs are Canis major and Canis minor.
A) The Jesus story doesn’t ask us to believe in an apocalypse any more than the Ten Commandments do. The idea that faith = apocalypse may sell books, but it is a false premise and Dr. Tabor is conflating a prophecy with the meaning behind Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad. The point isn’t whether Dr. Tabor believes these stories, it is the distorted meaning he gives them. The prophecy warns about what will come if man fails his faith in God, the Jesus story was more about the possibility of what could be if man upholds it. You don’t have to believe in these stories to understand them, but understanding them should be a requirement to critiquing them. Man decided his own fate as prophesied, murdering John and crucifying Jesus. The main underlying question being raised by religious texts is whether man can change his course?
Elsewhere, Dr. Tabor gives his views on the existence of God: “Now if the force of all forces is personal like this and has that character, wow… that would be quite an affirmation. That behind the universe is a personal force that is merciful and gracious that actually looks upon humans like a father, or a mother would with their own children. Well who could believe something like that given our world? Given suffering, and given all the disappointment of human history and life.”
His misconception here proves it’s possible to spend a career studying something and still get it mostly wrong. Apply Dr. Tabor’s thinking to what’s happening in Israel/Gaza today! All the man-made death and destruction there, which the Ten Commandments and Jesus both condemned, is proof God doesn’t exist? Where does it say burn the place down, and after the party’s over God will come and make it all new again?
I have no idea what you are even talking about. Tabor tends to lecture on Jesus as Jew, turning people back to God and traditional morals as opposed to Paul who comes up with the blood and sacrifice for the forgiveness of all
Sins. Not sure where you are deriving your statements from. I am open to learning though if you are willing to share.
@@clstrat837 I do apologize for the long posts, but there's a reason they were labeled A-b, they go together, as in A-braham. You might want to review Dr. Tabor's blast-from-the-past, because the main ideas are a failed prophecy, and Jesus was just a man that fooled a lot of people. So is it a failed prophecy, or are we still waiting for it to happen? Scholars have assigned a ruler to the 4th kingdom to align the fact that it hasn't happened yet with the notion that it failed, but there is a wrinkle in the narrative they are selling. That being this view doesn't align at all with the text. The signs point to the 4th kingdom coming after the rise of Islam. A major stumbling block for some scholars is they appear to be stuck in the past with the texts they are reading. Consider this, if we read the prophecy in the context of our modern world, then crushing all other nations doesn't necessarily have to imply the use of military means. If a nation/kingdom has enough wealth/power/influence, then it could use the UN to enforce its will and defeat any who oppose it. The point is if prophecy = prediction, then we should stop trying to fit the prediction into a past that can no longer hold it. The two possible views are it will never happen, which is Dr. Tabor's position, and the other is we are still waiting for it to happen, which is mine.
b) The concept that God is responsible for man’s actions is mirrored in Dr. Tabor’s failed prophecy story, which he believes is proven when a man named Paul gets it wrong. Dr. Tabor also misinterprets use of the word “generation” in Mark 13 to further support his narrative. Clearly Mark 13:6 is not suggesting the 12 won’t recognize themselves, and yet this is what Dr. Tabor’s version would require. Could Mark 13:7-8 be referring to Jesus’ generation when the far off events listed are the BEGINNING of birth pains? Mark 13:10 says the Gospel must first be preached to all nations, but Prophet Muhammad would not arrive for another 600 years. Is Dr. Tabor suggesting Abraham and Ismail are not part of this story? There is little doubt that some of the greatest minds have tried to see through these mysteries, and Schweitzer is simply another failed attempt at lifting the veil. To borrow a quote from Bob Dylan, when the Gospel describes nonbelievers as having eye’s without seeing and ear’s without hearing, it appears IMO to be “right on target, so direct”.
A cautionary note on interpreting prophecy, 2-out-of-3 might be close, but no cigar! Hitler couldn’t have possibly been the one because eventhcugh he turned man’s world order on its head, the prophecy is referring to a time when God’s order gets turned on its head. As a man dealing in human conflict, Hitler was right where he belonged. Imagine the antichrist elected as Pope, changing the message of religion from hope to one of desolation and despair. That is what the Gospel is referring to when it talks about an abomination standing where it does not belong. I wouldn’t believe anyone who claims to have it all worked out, but the one thing I am certain of is that the time described in Mark 13 hasn’t happened yet. The only thing we can say is that we do appear to have inched closer to it over the last couple millennia, and all the signs can be linked to the rise of Islam where the Kaaba and shrine on Mount Moriah are central features. So unless Dr. Tabor can explain how Schweitzer’s shadow accounts for the story of Muhammad, then at this point in the match it looks like Jesus won, Schweitzer zero.
The concept that God is responsible for man’s actions is mirrored in Dr. Tabor’s failed prophecy story, which he believes is proven when a man named Paul gets it wrong. Dr. Tabor also misinterprets use of the word “generation” in Mark 13 to further support his narrative. Clearly Mark 13:6 is not suggesting the 12 won’t recognize themselves, and yet this is what Dr. Tabor’s version would require. Could Mark 13:7-8 be referring to Jesus’ generation when the far off events listed are the BEGINNING of birth pains? Mark 13:10 says the Gospel must first be preached to all nations, but Prophet Muhammad would not arrive for another 600 years. Is Dr. Tabor suggesting Abraham and Ismail are not part of this story? There is little doubt that some of the greatest minds have tried to see through these mysteries, and Schweitzer is simply another failed attempt at lifting the veil. To borrow a quote from Bob Dylan, when the Gospel describes nonbelievers as having eye’s without seeing and ear’s without hearing, it appears IMO to be “right on target, so direct”.
A cautionary note on interpreting prophecy, 2-out-of-3 might be close, but no cigar! Hitler couldn’t have possibly been the one because eventhcugh he turned man’s world order on its head, the prophecy is referring to a time when God’s order gets turned on its head. As a man dealing in human conflict, Hitler was right where he belonged. Imagine the antichrist elected as Pope, changing the message of religion from hope to one of desolation and despair. That is what the Gospel is referring to when it talks about an abomination standing where it does not belong. I wouldn’t believe anyone who claims to have it all worked out, but the one thing I am certain of is that the time described in Mark 13 hasn’t happened yet. The only thing we can say is that we do appear to have inched closer to it over the last couple millennia, and all the signs can be linked to the rise of Islam where the Kaaba and shrine on Mount Moriah are central features. So unless Dr. Tabor can explain how Schweitzer’s shadow accounts for the story of Muhammad, then at this point in the match it looks like Jesus won, Schweitzer zero.
The concept that God is responsible for man’s actions is mirrored in Dr. Tabor’s failed prophecy story, which he believes is proven when a man named Paul gets it wrong. Dr. Tabor also misinterprets use of the word “generation” in Mark 13 to further support his narrative. Clearly Mark 13:6 is not suggesting the 12 won’t recognize themselves, and yet this is what Dr. Tabor’s version would require. Could Mark 13:7-8 be referring to Jesus’ generation when the far off events listed are the BEGINNING of birth pains? Mark 13:10 says the Gospel must first be preached to all nations, but Prophet Muhammad would not arrive for another 600 years. Is Dr. Tabor suggesting Abraham and Ismail are not part of this story? There is little doubt that some of the greatest minds have tried to see through these mysteries, and Schweitzer is simply another failed attempt at lifting the veil. To borrow a quote from Bob Dylan, when the Gospel describes nonbelievers as having eye’s without seeing and ear’s without hearing, it appears IMO to be “right on target, so direct”.
A cautionary note on interpreting prophecy, 2-out-of-3 might be close, but no cigar! Hitler couldn’t have possibly been the one because eventhcugh he turned man’s world order on its head, the prophecy is referring to a time when God’s order gets turned on its head. As a man dealing in human conflict, Hitler was right where he belonged. Imagine the antichrist elected as Pope, changing the message of religion from hope to one of desolation and despair. That is what the Gospel is referring to when it talks about an abomination standing where it does not belong. I wouldn’t believe anyone who claims to have it all worked out, but the one thing I am certain of is that the time described in Mark 13 hasn’t happened yet. The only thing we can say is that we do appear to have inched closer to it over the last couple millennia, and all the signs can be linked to the rise of Islam where the Kaaba and shrine on Mount Moriah are central features. So unless Dr. Tabor can explain how Schweitzer’s shadow accounts for the story of Muhammad, then at this point in the match it looks like Jesus won, Schweitzer zero.
Zechariah 11 The false idol foolish shepherd raised by God in the land is Jesus.☹
welll JEsus was an apocalyptic preacher and the apocalypse didn't happen so yes I'd say he was a failure
At @18:41 "Rapture is simply something you wait for and it can come in a moment in the twinkling of an eye at the last Trump"
LET THE READER UNDERSTAND ;)
With all that you appear to know…. You’ve missed the most important lesson. I am saying a prayer for you. 🙏🏽🙌🏽☝🏾🕊
No. I think you've missed most important lesson. 🙏
This is not an argument.
@@cracker3932 , who’s arguing? Prayers for you and Mr. Tabor . 🙏🏽💕☝🏾
You are. Maybe you don't understand. Making random accusations that he's somehow "missed the most important lesson" without providing any reasoning as to why does nothing to add to the conversation. Please present your research as to why he's missed the most important lesson. Perhaps your findings can enlighten us all.
@@cracker3932 , Jesus is God . He came in the flesh to save us . Jesus changed everything! He continues to change this fallen world , in His good time. We are so blessed to have an opportunity to give our Souls to Him . Call out to Jesus… Pray… Fast… Ask for forgiveness…. Read your Bible. Our eternal life completely depends on Jesus! I’m praying for you and James Tabor . May Jesus Bless you both with His loving presence and peace. 🙏🏽🙌🏽☝🏾🕊🧂
Obviously no spiritual sight.
Are you scared?
@@TheDanEdwards I do have the fear of The Lord. Yes.
obviously ? lol, I truly doubt you read one chapter of any of his books
@@tawan20082008 I've read the book that he studied and take the majority view on his analysis.
@@davidcrane6593
Why?
Jesus was not a failed Apocalyptic Messiah. The Christian Church did not maintain the tradition and instead covered up the revelations Jesus made.
Consider the centerpiece of the "Parekklesion tou Akanthinos Stephanos." Go look at the pillar. This is the pillar that they claim Jesus was on while he was crowned with thorns, and the Greek word for thorns is Akantha, as in the Acanthus plant. Note that to the side of this worthless relic, under the word Akanthon, a pillar is depicted, and its capital is a Corinthian capital with its traditional Acanthus thorns rising up to conceal the symbolism of previous capital orders, which refer to the Tree of Life.
The evidence proves that Christianity was established with respect to this tradition of the Tree of Life and its representation on Pillar Capitals.
Christians deny this, which is why Christianity is invalid. It denies the very root referent of all of its earliest symbols.
It's older and deeper than that, goes back to Babylon...