I do about 15k miles per year ~21hrs/wk and have done years of training peaks elite plans, and racing, and zwift and the other apps you mentioned. But honestly the one thing that was most effective (and that I became obsessed with) was a weekly monster solo ride on the weekend. Watching world tour racing I started to be fascinated by these weekly long races and hearing pros mention how it was the biggest part of the training, the racing itself. My area is all short crit racing, so I started doing solo centuries. At first, I tried to get 100 miles in under 5hrs, that was harder than I expected and I already had a 321 ftp. But i kept doing that every weekend and was shocked at how much easier it got each time. That feeling of getting into peak "form", and seeing measurable improvements week over week was like a drug. It's nothing like a long group ride or race where you can sit in, you have to be pegged the entire time. It's a great way to build mental endurance, and I found myself learning to relax my jaw and neck and making adjustments with pacing and mindfluness that really helped. Long story for a comment, but this was really impactful. Be safe and have fun! Oh yeah, I'm 51 now and have been cycling and racing 43 years. Current ftp is 352 and I weigh 165lbs. Cheers
Love this. I completely agree with the long ride on the weekend strategy. When I was training for a recent event, my weekend ride was around 175km and ~3000m of elevation. The first time I did it, I was a bit ruined. But even the third time that I rode this route, my improvement was very measurably faster. Life gets in the way a little for this to be a consistent approach for myself. But I use it all the time when ramping up for an event.
You might be adapting well to a polarized model. The interesting side note on polarized is that the data is based predominantly results during the race season of P12 level athletes. The argument is that while they are indeed polarized during structured workouts, they spend a TON of time racing and a large % of time in races is spent in sweet spot.
That’s a very high FTP for a +50 / master rider. I am at around 4,2W per kg and doing a lot of international races. Typically I am around 5% behind the winners in M50-59 and there are also a few riders in M60 that are faster than me. With an FTP at 4.7W per kg you should be winning races.
Agreed. During the week I train indoors due to time and safety. But I almost never skip my long, weekend ride. That's my favorite thing to do, solo or with friends. It's what keeps me motivated. I also like to sign up for an occasional Audax or race, which allows me to ride in places I usually wouldn't. Having those rides in my calendar also greatly helps me with staying focused on my structured training plan.
Woah, that's a massive increase. Over what period did that happen? The only way I could ride training peaks, was an erg session imported to zwift. Do you ride purely free rides now? Did you lose much on your FTP?
@@SpinAnGrin Hi thanks for your question, the FTP increase happened over a period of about 1 year and was recorded a couple of years ago. At the moment I'm training for my first triathlon (Ironman New Zealand) in 6 months time so I don't do much strength or speed work, mainly longer rides. I'm 48 years old now and have an FTP of 250 but I enjoy my riding much more and even when I do the occasional Zwift race I don't see the bigger numbers like I have in the past but I'm actually having more fun because I'm focussed on having a good time and don't really care about the result.
@@tvforreal6614 it is all about your attitude towards it. If you don't want to have best results then it is not for you. I'm in the opposite camp, working with a coach and having everything planned helps my adherence and being able to ride faster and faster is a source of joy for me.
Personally, I find it much more satisfying to hunt for PRs on a few selected outdoors Strava segments than doing FTP tests indoors. I ride with a power meter so I have a good idea of my progress and FTP without doing the test. Should also be noted that «real life FTP» usually is a bit higher that «trainer FTP» since core muscles are more involved in body movements.
Upload your Strava rides to intervals icu!! They have an algorithm that will just tell you your estimated FTP using all the data from all your rides. Keeps track of everything for you I love it. My estimates FTP from intervals icu was only 2 watts different from what I got during an ftp test. It's pretty much bang on for me
Totally concur with what you are saying. I joined a Zwift TTT and ZRL group that were both a level above my rating. The fear of letting the team down is real, and so you are having to go deep, you push yourself beyond your normal limits. My FTP went from 265 to 305 by the end of the season. Having since stopped doing both those, and having been mostly training on my own, my FTP has fallen again. So I can really see the benefits that period brought me. Great video thanks!
One thing i added to my training/cycling was contacting my local university sports centre that offers lactate testing it really helped dial in my zone 2 numbers and also where my max Lactate zone where I can work accumulating and removing lactate. It's great for solo training but also being but in a group you can see when you're just cruising at LT1 and also when you're bouncing around at Lt2 - for example when we hit a hill and the group starts to split I start by trying to maintain my LT2 for as long as possible, knowing it will start to creep up - this really helps with pacing and pushing yourself. Also finding a local uni to do it is great as they love the data and it's usually fairly cheap when compared to a private test.
This is really interesting, there is actually a local university that often has people asking for participants in studies. As part of the study, they normally calculate these measurements. How long did your testing take to complete?
The experiences you have "IRL" resonated with when years ago i used to run (talking 30 years ago eek!), I always ran by myself, I was 8min/mile all day every day. Joined a running club when I moved to a new town/job and one of my colleagues (20 years older) was in it... They did a club evening/non serious duathlon (run/bike) and I went in for that, and running with him and 3 others I did the 3.5 mile run part in 24:30, or a 7 min mile...I was amazed that just being with others could open up fitness that was there but I'd never been able to tap into because my brain was saying no, you go at this speed! I'm considering now joining the local cycling club as I'm back at this stage- I live rurally now and usually cycle alone... I think keeping structured intervals going indoors is far more focussed, and probably safer without real life hazards, and gains can be made that can be taken outside. I know a few people I can bike with but as ever it's making time to meet up when everyone else has stuff to do (jobs, families etc)....I've also wondered what it would be like biking in a mini peloton or drafting/pace line, when I do 100km+ outside it's me versus the elements and nowhere to hide lol!!!
Interesting that you saw such improvements whilst running with others. I think that you're right that so much of it is physiological. Cycling clubs are the best way to get into riding with others I find. They're always very welcoming and allow for people of all levels. Lookin forward to hearing how you get on, and enjoy the draft ;)
Never underestimate the training effect of riding with cyclists that are much fitter than you. I trained for Tour de Cure a few weeks back with a group of absolute freaks where I was always the last one to reach the top of the climb. When I came to the tour, it quickly became obvious that whilst I still wasn't as fit as them, I was far fitter than the tour required of me and substantially fitter than what I was prior. Now time to get on the trainer!!!!
good job getting to that ftp, I am targeting that for next year (about 330W). I have a smart trainer for some time but did not do a lot of structured training, I just liked to ride on rouvy on famous climbs and that keeps me on my toes at about 240-255 W FTP. Now I started to add more Zone 2 training (lactate under 2 mmol) and I noticed a huge improvement in my ability to ride a lot of time without blowing up and recovering way faster than when I was doing only hard deep sessions. Also, this year I bought power meter pedals (garmin rally 200) and they provide me with great insight both in terms of power and how I pedal. This seems to allow me to also go for a group ride with friends, but I leave earlier, grind my 1 hour session, then do almost z2 or recovery with them. My ftp is not going up right now with this, but my ability to ride rather fast and recover is something I did not believe I could achieve. Very nice video and good luck with your ftp going to pro levels :)
Don’t forget the importance of base training during the off season . Your FTP is only usable when you can bust out a 5-minute effort after 100km of rolling hills. This is not just for racers, but for anyone who want to keep riding.
I'm trying out XERT rn and i am loving it! It tracks all your progress with AI and gives you the ability to choose between a workout session (intervals) or simply riding with your friends till you reach your suggested XSS (xert's version of TSS to measure your effort).
@@SpinAnGrin used it for some data fields on garmin and training analysis for abour 3 months and as a intervals sheet for about 1! Its a bit complex in the beggining because there are lots of new terms and so on, but totally worth it! Let me know what you think
tip for even more improvement: structured training is good and all, but typically the plans like “build me up” have pretty easy and random workouts that feel hard, but dont really provide much benefit. if your focus is improving your sustained power, i suggest doing threshold and vo2max workouts. 2x20, 3x15, 3x8, etc. avoid junk miles, ride at atleast 65% for endurance rides. save junk miles for outdoor fun imo if your focus is performance. 9/10 or 10/10 on your workouts in RPE. if you finish a workout and feel like you couldve done another interval, get back on and do it 😂 i do one threshold workout and one vo2 workout a week. also a long ride every 10-12 days or so 2 years ago my first ftp test landed me at around 250 at 70kg, now its 380 at 75kg
Woah, that's an incredible jump in FTP. My biggest hurdle with structured training at this point is fitting into my schedule. I just need to decide what my goal is I guess
@@SpinAnGrin for sure. if you have a set goal and focus on that, you'll see improvements rather than jumping around in what you are actually training your body for. most of my weeks are 10-13 hours
I treated myself to a whole rig up- rocker plate, Kickr V5, 13th Gen Intel PC with GTX 1660 Super GPU and a 55" 4k TV, with a Vacmaster 54 fan for last winter as I was sick fed up of my fitness going down the shi**er every Bleak Scottish Dark Winter when even with the best intentions you NEVER get out like you'd want. I subscribed to Wahoo X for RGT, love it far better than Zwift for my needs, but it wasn't until January I discovered the SYSTM part of it...TOTAL GAMECHANGER !!! Did the 4DP test, found my weak areas (MAP/FTP...I'm a "sprinter" apparently) and put in a solid structured interval program, 2-3 intervals a week plus Z2(either SYSTM "Films" or RGT 100km rides) and in 8 weeks took my FTP (on their "Half Monty" test) from (yep a pathetic)190w to 254w.... I used to hate winter but now I'm not bothered one bit, will get on it sooner this year as out IRL I'm kinda stuck/plateaued without the intervals, but enjoying what weather we get....
So many questions for you! How do you get on with the 4DP test? I've heard that's a much more accurate testing platform than ramp tests? Do you enjoy the rocker plate? I actually just sold mine as I had always ridden without one and found it was just too big for the space
@@SpinAnGrin It went ok, 2 attempts at the NM section but on the second I came unclipped (my fault, MTB SPD's I hadn't cranked up release screw from using IRL so were set for easiest release!), the MAP (5 mins) and FTP(20mins) I must admit were mentally stressful and they are really tough to know how you've done- did you go in at the right level etc to hold on, not sure if you had a trainer or someone to push you at your side you could get better results etc. The AC was a minute and like an extended NM... these seem to be my two areas that are strongest though. I've since used the Half Monty as it's far less likely to throw up a user error, more consistent and is far less daunting. Also my weaker areas are what this test seems to focus on(MAP/FTP), there is no NM/AC element to it. The RP does take up some room (Lifeline model) but I removed it for the 4DP in case it skewed the results and hated the feel of it during that hour...it makes these 3-4hr RGT rides bearable having a bit of movement though, and I've mastered the correct technique for out the saddle (bike leaning away from whatever foot is at 6 o'clock down position). I want the Kickr Climb but then again a lot of money and it may just make the whole setup messy.... The PC upgrade was so worth the money giving 60fps in High on 4K (needed a new one anyway, 10yr old cheap laptop was putting out 9-12fps in Medium on a 720p tv)
I guess it makes sense that with every attempt at the 4DP, you get better from experience. I've heard good things about the wahoo system so I might see if they have a free trial 👍 I want the climb also, it's one thing that I think will really help climb training with the angle of the bike. Would love to try one before I buy but I don't know anyone with one yet :/. I still use an Apple TV and can imagine the better quality a proper PC would give. I just need to curb the spending at the moment
@@markfawbert2991 Can walk about the house without f**king the flooring up eh... IRL even though I use SL's now, living in the rural Scottish Highlands you can't often get a 2G/phone signal, let alone a taxi where I ride, so in a catastrophic failure of something on the bike I cannot fix walking may be the only option....roadie shoes are great as long as you are on the bike...Might go back to SPD's anyway this spring as I'll be shifting to more "gravel" riding as too many idiots on the roads around here....tourists, rural worzels in 4x4's, boy/girl racers, delivery drivers...
Don't try and stay at your peak. As tempting as it seems to constantly be improving, you will need a break, whether that's a week or two off the bike, or just an off season with low lower intensity.
@@lechprotean disagree with this. your true ftp is what you could do for an hour if you get everything right - pacing, head in the right place etc. which is hard to do and needs practice.
I think you should continue to do what you now seem to have effectively done; periodize different types of training. Intervals make you better, and endurance rides too, but neither will alone give you improvements forever. The improvements comes because your body needs to adapt to something it is not used to, but sooner or later it gets so used to it, that you need do change something to stimulate further improvements. If I should recommend something else to throw into the mix in periods; strength training (and if possible; stair-intervals - 4 to 6x 60-90sec - effectively an exercise of endurance-strength, which targets the same muscles used when hillclimbing on the bike). Many cyclists fear this type of training because of soreness, and will (if anything) only do it during off-season. But soreness is only a startup-problem -do enough of it and the soreness will not be a problem after a few weeks, and if you structure it the right way, you can easily combine it with harder workout programs in-season. The key is to not have separate days for strength - there’s a limit to how many hard days you can fit into a week and still recover, so instead of having, say, 2 interval days, one long ride and then add a strength day on top of that; just make those interval days harder by adding short strength-sessions afterwards, ideally several hours later the same day, but if you’re time-crunched like me, its also possible to do it immediately afterwards. It’s hard, but.. it should be..! I did this doubling (and the stair-climbs) myself this spring, over 7-8 weeks, taking inspiration from some podcasts interviewing a couple of top-level athletes, who mentioned it, and saw the biggest improvements I’ve had in the last 5 years.
Thanks for the response. You mentioned a few things that I've been debating but also managed to answer the hypothetical questions that go with it. I'm starting to understand the importance of strength training to aid in my cycling but I'm yet to implement a consistent strategy. I hadn't however considered including it on hard training days. My other struggle is the normal family life time crunch, but if I can find time to ride I can find time to train. For now, my biggest "priority" in regards to my training is an upcoming 250km gravel ride. So everything is around endurance. After that, I will need to focus on what type of riding I do. Be that group rides, or long rides and maybe focus my training specific to that. Thanks for taking the time to write the above. You've echoed with more detail what others mentioned. This only highlights the benefits. Watch this space I guess
Glad to hear! I absolutely agree that you shouldn’t change things drastically before an important event, especially not one which is that demanding.. But in the long run (here we are talking years more than months), even events like that might benefit from incorporating strength training, maybe not when it comes FTP or specific performance-measurements, but it could help you resist general fatigue better. Its also wise to progress slowly at first, if you haven’t done strength training before. Start with low weight and many repetitions (12+ per set, 3 sets per exercise) before going to the opposite end of the scale to build max strength (1-6 reps per set). This both to learn the techniques and to allow your body to adapt in order to prevent injuries that might occur if you jump straight into heavy lifting. That adaptation-period will also be a good time to test out different strategies to implement it in daily life and in other training programs, although soreness will affect things differently than when you have passed the soreness-period; when I am sore, day 2 and 3 are worst. I can do a decent workout on day 1, but on day 2 its usually impossible to get training done and day 3 is just light training at best. When not sore anymore, day 1 is better used to recover, then day 2 can be another hard day. But there will always be individual variations on what works best. The only way to find out is to try..! When it comes to specific exercises and such, both Dylan Johnson and Road Cycling Academy-channels have some good videos on this, the former also with references to some of the leading research on the improvements strength training can have on cycling performance. But it doesn’t have to be complicated either; for performance gains the focus should be mostly on leg work and the type of exercises that mimics the pedaling motion; leg presses, squats, lunges and step-ups/stairclimbs in different variations, and in the beginning you can probably do much of it at home with just a kettlebell or two, which makes it much easier to fit it into the weekly program.
Club bunch rides on a Tuesday. That's about 75km total but 50km is at a pace. It also includes 4 sections that everyone races ranging from short 1minute climbs to 15 minute rolling hills between towns. If I can, I will do 2 of those a week, commuting and then a long ride on the weekend between 4-6 hours. So an average week is maybe 10 hours ideally. I don't aim for distance, more time at this point.
In the winter of 2020 I raised my FTP from ~240 to 310 at 67 kilos. All with a help of a cheapest magnetic turbo-trainer + Stages powermeter. No training apps, just a good old staring at the Garmin. Did like 1-2 HIIT sessions per week (literally till I can't hear and see), one 2 hours+ ride at ~80% FTP, lots of walking as a recovery. Was I happy with the results? Hell no, I just destroyed my ability to have fun on a bike, it became a chore (quite painful chore tbh). Couldn't look at my road bike for like a year 😐
Yep, I feel that pain. Unless I have an event of some sorts, I have no interest in structured training at this point. But I'm having more fun on the bike than I ever have before
i only have recently gotten a powermeter so what i tell is mostly by feel: what worked for me: type 1: -45min to work for 16k with the bike in any weather. 45min back after work -starting 3x week and later 5x week -1h of blasting on saturday 15-20rep for 3 sets legpress close to puke. idk anymore if done once per week or more. did this wen i was 29. ftp on indoortrainer with no fucking fans for 20min. went from 140 to +190W on gymergo in a few weeks. lost some weight too. type 2: 3x/week 2.5-3h ride sprinkeld in some bpm 150 intervals for 10min in. but weather an time is a factor here in hamburg germany. type 3: what i am trying right now is adding intervals in the gym 2x week and z2 for an hour if possible aft3er work. some intervalls for ftp in mind some for Vo2 max. also having a few blocks of squatting.. racing: puts you beyond normal limits but fatique is high too. so don´t over do it. sadly due to time and transport i can´t race very often. most races have no big advertising to so you don´t even know when some is running. atm i am at 39y @ around 225W ftp. but i am a small guy of 170cm and my raceweight should be 61 but working in a warehouse beefed me up to 80kg :D
@@SpinAnGrin imo i am okish at sprints with 900W for 20sec. and 1111W for 5sek. strength training gives you great torque and you hold more muscle mass in the legs during winter when you don´t ride much. cardio comes fast again if you ramp up the miles again. and i kind of like it going uphill until its not more then 12%
Ramp tests are great however I do feel they can over estimate your ftp. Like could you go out for a hour and hold near that or more so could you hold 332 what’s for 20 mins to give you the same ftp. Not saying they’re bad but think they can overreach and I am also saying this from my own experience
Tend to agree. I use it as a ballpark figure for when I'm climbing to be honest. I can do 320 for 20 minutes on a climb (I just posted a video where I did that) but an hour is around 300 for me currently
Choosing between intervals inside or just riding outside. Maybe I missed something but why can't you do the intervals outside? Find a hill or a quiet stretch of road. Also not using erg mode inside helps transitioning outside.
I've always struggled to consistently hold the interval power outside. I know that means it's exactly a skill I need to learn but it's going to take me while
@@SpinAnGrinI don't think it matters that much if you go 20 watts over and under the target power during the intervals. As long as the average at the end hits the target. I do my 3 min vo2 max intervals on a hill near mine, and if my target is 360 watts it'll always drift between 320 and 390. But the average is always about right. It still has the same effect. Regarding your previous comments about not being able to stick to zone 2, you have to really leave your ego at home lol. Zone 2 is so important that it mustn't be overlooked. I used to go hard all the time when I started road cycling 3 years ago. But then learnt to curb my ego, every ride doesn't have to be a race. Nice work on getting to 317 though. At 51 with only 3 years on the bike, I'm hovering around 300. And hope to move above that. I use Trainerroad, and love the AI ftp detector which I've found pretty accurate. I hate doing the ramp test.
Zone 2 predominantly would be commuting in and out of work. I like to do a zwift climb session once a week but the rest is group rides. Some of those however would be considered HIIT training due to me trying to keep up with people 😅
you should also do the 20min FTP test protocol. That is warm up, then 5min max effort (for you around 380-420w), followed by max effort for 20min. Then take 95% of your 20m average power. Compare that with your ramp test derived FTP. I'd recommend trying out Ingebrigsten style interval workouts. They do 5 x 6min at slightly lower than FTP pace, so for you that would be around 280-300w, and also 10-20 x (2 to 3 min intervals) at slightly faster than FTP pace
@@SpinAnGrinyeah zwift has one with 20 mins. But the results can be pretty different from the ramp test. For the 20 min you need to pace yourself pretty good. So you might want to try both tests, see which one fits you better and then stick with this test protocol to track your ftp development
@@SpinAnGrinramp test is super inaccurate. 20 min FTP test is a lot more accurate. For me Ramp test results 300 + watts Vs 20 min test 274 watts. I’m a lot more confident in 20 min test.
Its all about volume guys. How many weekend warriors ride an average of 12k or more a year? So thats the secret for upping vo2 max also. It will take time. Period
If you notice that you couldnt make any substantial progress from where you are right now (sort of hit a plateau), try incorporating weight sessions to target specific muscle groups
I've heard a lot about this but honestly I'm very aware that I just don't know which exercises to complete. Are there any specific ones that you can recommend such as free weights of dead lifts?
@@SpinAnGrin: Dylan Johnson has some good video's on weight training for cyclists. Just search for "dylan johnson weight training" in the youtube search.
#1 rule for anyone wanting to do endurance cycling, if you can sustain 80-85% of your ftp for 50-120 miles then you are in good shape. Lots of people have crazy high ftp but can not utilize it for longer than 20 min intervals!
I raced at elite level for many years 90s 2000s,wouldn’t have a clue what my ftp was never even used a heart rate monitor. I do now I’ve stopped racing, and realise what a benefit knowing and training to these metrics would’ve been. My point is it’s not the be all and end all. Find a good group of talent to train with and you’ll improve. Start racing and you’ll improve even more plus much more fun than sitting on a home trainer.
after having covid extremely badly i dropped to a 230w FTP, almost gave up riding and every ride felt like a battle. 2 years later im at my best ever fitness sitting over 100w higher than that low of 230w. i think the number one thing to raise ftp is riding more z2 and getting the volume up. pair that with racing and other high intensity intervals. personally racing takes you to a place you wouldn’t ever go in training or even a group ride so this has been what has pushed me over 300w which i wouldn’t have dreamt of before
@@SpinAnGrin both, crits of 1 hour or less are good for top end but equally longer road races like 3 hours helps a lot with enduring repeated and extended anaerobic efforts.
I use both. Trainerroad workouts while rolling around the Zwift world. On the iPad my Wahoo Kickr and my Polar H10 HRM can connect to both apps at the same time. TrainerRoad controls the kickr in ERG mode, and Zwift can see the power output.
I personally like the gaming side of Zwift. It's way more engaging than trainer road however, trainer road would provide more structure and bigger results.
I find the wahoo ramp (half monty) very good, as it has a 20min effort after a ramp, where you maintain a power output within a specific HR range. Far more accurate I found compared to a classic ramp-only test. Haven't been able to crack 261 myself but ill get there.
I think you also need a body that adapts well to training. My FTP has always been somewhere betwee 230 and 250 no matter what I do. And I've done the structured training and the riding with people better than me.
Are you recovering properly though? That's a huge part. If you're not sleeping enough, eating well etc you can do more training but you're not actually absorbing it.
@@SpinAnGrin Thats going to be your biggest problem with pushing extra volume and/or intensity. Obviously its unavoidable but you may get to a point where actually more training isn't going to make you faster as you might not be able to recover from the training. It's always a balance isn't it. Figuring out how much you can actually get away with, with current life stresses.
That's rather a 415 Max Aerobic Power test than a 300w Ftp test... the anaerobic contribution is much higher compared to the longer 20-30min max efforts..
@@SpinAnGrin It's hard for me to suggest methods as either one will push you out of your comfort level ;-) Personally, I don't focus too much on FTP values. I only do a test every 3-4 months. The best test would be a 40k time trial... You know you won't push max at the start, and as you go on you can increase your RPE (rate of perceived exertion) to max for the last 10 minutes. However, I tend to do a 25-30 minutes 'max' effort as a test. If you don't like the 40k time trial, do Alpe du Zwift at MAX effort. Just go RPE 8-9/10 for every segment. Ride the Alpe 1x every 3 weeks, and it will be both a good aerobic training AND a better estimate on FTP. If you feel like 300w is your FTP, you should theoretically be able to finish the Alpe du Zwift in 49 minutes à 4w/kg ... If that seems daunting, try to do a workout with 2 x 20minutes... If you're almost dying in the first effort or can't complete, you can certainly say the 300W is an overestimate and your aerobic endurance is underdeveloped compared to your anaerobic side. Do you have a powermeter on your outdoor bike? It will give you beter insight on your FTP, as you say others push you to harder efforts. I'm a bit confused on the group rides with 'faster people': How do you experience the fatigue? Are the rides with a lot of cornering and does it take a lot to recover after each 15-20 effort? Or are it long steady paced efforts? Are you riding on flat terrain or short, punchy hills? If it are max steady paced efforts, then you should drop out of the group after 40-60 minutes, as you talk about doing 100k rides? If it's all about cornering, it's a good push on your anaerobic side... If it's on the longer end, this might be a good FTP boost.. However, you might be too fatigued to have some consistency in training for the other days of the week. What I find good resources: Watch the YT channel 'WKO Education' .. Or listen to the 'Emirical cycling podcast episodes on FTP / VO2 max (some episodes are too scientific, but the conclusions can be very valuable)
@@SpinAnGrin The full test might be more accurate, yes! However, I've read the protocol and it does MAX sprints, MAX 5 minute efforts,a 20 minute effort (that you detest) followed by a MAX 1 minute .. That's just too much in one workout in my opinion.. You should do a 1 minute effort when your fresh. If you then want to train your 1 minute performance, get to know your max 1 min effort, and then do a workout like : 8x1' à 95% 1m MAX ... This will be a good trigger for your body to improve anaerobic side. For FTP, you could go sweetspot training. If your FTP values are overestimated, you might end up doing treshold workouts, which will also be a good aerobic stimulus, eventhough at the cost of a higher fatigue.
Sounds like the most important thing that I need to focus on initially then is understanding what power I want to work on. So either endurance or sprints for example. Thanks for the above, it's given me a lot to think about.
@@SpinAnGrin yeah, if you're not racing, a 270W FTP with a 450W 5' punch might be better compared to a 300W FTP with a 370W 5'... It's all about the intensity/duration relationship and your goals
If you're willing to spend time doing the interval sessions required to raise it then I don't see why not. My focus now is in holding the higher power over prolonged climbing periods. For a triathlon, I'd train for the time of the cycle leg
Volume. Volume, volume, volume. Then you ll see what you're made of. You have to at least ride 5x a week for many weeks to really unlock anything. To avoid burning out you'll soon see how much intensity you can tolerate within these sessions. If you manage 2, it's already great. Hard sessions tend to toast me pretty bad. "Never" do more than 3.
I hate to be that guy, but now take this ramp FTP and feed it into your structured workout plan. Chance is big that you’re going to fail almost all or VO2max/FTP days. Thing is, Zwift ramp is horribly inaccurate in assessing the FTP. If you in the lucky 1%, result is to low and you’ll be able to train with new set FTP (albeit with limited gain). However, for most people it sets FTP way to high.
No off the shelf plans from swift, training peaks or any body else will help you. You need a cycle coach who can look at your results each day and adapt your training daily to suit
Structured training will give the largest improvement. As for going on group rides get a battery assist bike, that way you can go long, at zone 2 power, without doing over-unders. This way your CTL won't be as high leading to better recovery and the ability to preform your higher intensity intervals in a better physiological state.
I love ebikes and might be buying one for my wife soon. I can't say I would want to turn up to a fast bunch ride on one yet. Not unless they want me to motor pace them 😅
@@ronm7114 I'm a old-man fella and can only go on pack rides if I have an assist these days. You have to look twice to see I'm on a ebike, it's a drop bar one. It just allows me to not burn out.
That would be an incredible feat from a 48Kg cyclist, 6W/Kg+. Any target FTP realistically becomes a percentage of maximal power output, not some magical fixed number. Ridiculous.
Functional Threshold Power is in the title though isn’t it “Functional”. 300 watts is all well and good for 20 minutes, but where’s your HR at? What’s the mmol’s of lactate at FTP? When I was being coached, I’d do a 20 minute effort and be having blood taken, and at 4mmol, we would take the HR at that. That’s where the cross over from aerobic to anaerobic is, so my thinking is, what’s the point in putting out 300 watts for 20 mins if you’re in the grey zone? I’d train my body over the coming months with intervals and MAE riding (along with 3 days a week in the gym) to raise my blood lactate threshold. I started with a BLT of 158bpm, and after training it was 170pbm. I could ride aerobically at 80% of my max, so I can do a 20 minute effort on the turbo at 170BPM and still remain aerobic.
Was this something that you did recreationally with a coach or was it for professional purposes? I'd love to dive deeper down the rabbit hole but just can't justify the cost when it's essentially a hobby for myself. This has enabled me to know what I can hold for 20/60/80 minutes and I'm pretty happy just clearly knowing that at this point.
I do about 15k miles per year ~21hrs/wk and have done years of training peaks elite plans, and racing, and zwift and the other apps you mentioned. But honestly the one thing that was most effective (and that I became obsessed with) was a weekly monster solo ride on the weekend. Watching world tour racing I started to be fascinated by these weekly long races and hearing pros mention how it was the biggest part of the training, the racing itself. My area is all short crit racing, so I started doing solo centuries. At first, I tried to get 100 miles in under 5hrs, that was harder than I expected and I already had a 321 ftp. But i kept doing that every weekend and was shocked at how much easier it got each time. That feeling of getting into peak "form", and seeing measurable improvements week over week was like a drug. It's nothing like a long group ride or race where you can sit in, you have to be pegged the entire time. It's a great way to build mental endurance, and I found myself learning to relax my jaw and neck and making adjustments with pacing and mindfluness that really helped. Long story for a comment, but this was really impactful. Be safe and have fun! Oh yeah, I'm 51 now and have been cycling and racing 43 years. Current ftp is 352 and I weigh 165lbs. Cheers
Love this. I completely agree with the long ride on the weekend strategy.
When I was training for a recent event, my weekend ride was around 175km and ~3000m of elevation. The first time I did it, I was a bit ruined. But even the third time that I rode this route, my improvement was very measurably faster.
Life gets in the way a little for this to be a consistent approach for myself. But I use it all the time when ramping up for an event.
You might be adapting well to a polarized model. The interesting side note on polarized is that the data is based predominantly results during the race season of P12 level athletes. The argument is that while they are indeed polarized during structured workouts, they spend a TON of time racing and a large % of time in races is spent in sweet spot.
That’s a very high FTP for a +50 / master rider. I am at around 4,2W per kg and doing a lot of international races. Typically I am around 5% behind the winners in M50-59 and there are also a few riders in M60 that are faster than me. With an FTP at 4.7W per kg you should be winning races.
Agreed. During the week I train indoors due to time and safety. But I almost never skip my long, weekend ride. That's my favorite thing to do, solo or with friends. It's what keeps me motivated. I also like to sign up for an occasional Audax or race, which allows me to ride in places I usually wouldn't. Having those rides in my calendar also greatly helps me with staying focused on my structured training plan.
Hey thanks for the long comment, it actually helps with great information for a beginner like myself.
Eagerly awaiting the sequel video "Raise your FTP over 400!" ;)
Please don't hold your breath. I don't think I've got the motivation for that level of training! Would be a hefty goal that's for sure
Wait…Is this like 7 minute abs? It’s all cool until someone comes out with 6 minute abs. 😂
I raised my FTP from 240 to 327 with Training Peaks and it honestly sucked all the joy and fun out of riding my bike.
Woah, that's a massive increase. Over what period did that happen?
The only way I could ride training peaks, was an erg session imported to zwift.
Do you ride purely free rides now? Did you lose much on your FTP?
@@SpinAnGrin Hi thanks for your question, the FTP increase happened over a period of about 1 year and was recorded a couple of years ago. At the moment I'm training for my first triathlon (Ironman New Zealand) in 6 months time so I don't do much strength or speed work, mainly longer rides. I'm 48 years old now and have an FTP of 250 but I enjoy my riding much more and even when I do the occasional Zwift race I don't see the bigger numbers like I have in the past but I'm actually having more fun because I'm focussed on having a good time and don't really care about the result.
I had the exact same, had no more fun when the whole weak was planned out beforehand on trainingspeaks.
Spoils those spontaneous last minute rides ay
@@tvforreal6614 it is all about your attitude towards it. If you don't want to have best results then it is not for you. I'm in the opposite camp, working with a coach and having everything planned helps my adherence and being able to ride faster and faster is a source of joy for me.
Great video, 4.2wkg is a really good level for a weekend warrior, Cycling is so much more fun the fitter you get
Being able to actually make it up a hill is much more enjoyable :D
Personally, I find it much more satisfying to hunt for PRs on a few selected outdoors Strava segments than doing FTP tests indoors. I ride with a power meter so I have a good idea of my progress and FTP without doing the test. Should also be noted that «real life FTP» usually is a bit higher that «trainer FTP» since core muscles are more involved in body movements.
Interesting. Do you always try and hunt the same segments or just any in general? I enjoy beating PR's on hills
Upload your Strava rides to intervals icu!! They have an algorithm that will just tell you your estimated FTP using all the data from all your rides. Keeps track of everything for you I love it. My estimates FTP from intervals icu was only 2 watts different from what I got during an ftp test. It's pretty much bang on for me
No power meter, but as a Strava segment recordholder locally, that's good enough. 52kph on that section works for me.
Totally concur with what you are saying. I joined a Zwift TTT and ZRL group that were both a level above my rating. The fear of letting the team down is real, and so you are having to go deep, you push yourself beyond your normal limits. My FTP went from 265 to 305 by the end of the season. Having since stopped doing both those, and having been mostly training on my own, my FTP has fallen again. So I can really see the benefits that period brought me. Great video thanks!
Well done, that's a massive improvement. Good to hear what you experienced
One thing i added to my training/cycling was contacting my local university sports centre that offers lactate testing it really helped dial in my zone 2 numbers and also where my max Lactate zone where I can work accumulating and removing lactate. It's great for solo training but also being but in a group you can see when you're just cruising at LT1 and also when you're bouncing around at Lt2 - for example when we hit a hill and the group starts to split I start by trying to maintain my LT2 for as long as possible, knowing it will start to creep up - this really helps with pacing and pushing yourself.
Also finding a local uni to do it is great as they love the data and it's usually fairly cheap when compared to a private test.
This is really interesting, there is actually a local university that often has people asking for participants in studies. As part of the study, they normally calculate these measurements. How long did your testing take to complete?
You buy a lactate test monitor for about 200-300 USD theses days .. test yourself more convenient 👌
@@SpinAnGrin whole test, warm up, etc i was at centre for around 2 hours, got results about 3 days later
Sounds interesting. I will have a look Into this, cheers mate
Congrats! Have recently brought my FTP up from 261 to 282. Hoping to break through 300 soon.
Safe and productive riding!
Consistency is key, you will get there
@@SpinAnGrin Indeed, number one priority, regardless of what you do, is to ride consistently!
The experiences you have "IRL" resonated with when years ago i used to run (talking 30 years ago eek!), I always ran by myself, I was 8min/mile all day every day. Joined a running club when I moved to a new town/job and one of my colleagues (20 years older) was in it... They did a club evening/non serious duathlon (run/bike) and I went in for that, and running with him and 3 others I did the 3.5 mile run part in 24:30, or a 7 min mile...I was amazed that just being with others could open up fitness that was there but I'd never been able to tap into because my brain was saying no, you go at this speed!
I'm considering now joining the local cycling club as I'm back at this stage- I live rurally now and usually cycle alone... I think keeping structured intervals going indoors is far more focussed, and probably safer without real life hazards, and gains can be made that can be taken outside. I know a few people I can bike with but as ever it's making time to meet up when everyone else has stuff to do (jobs, families etc)....I've also wondered what it would be like biking in a mini peloton or drafting/pace line, when I do 100km+ outside it's me versus the elements and nowhere to hide lol!!!
Interesting that you saw such improvements whilst running with others. I think that you're right that so much of it is physiological.
Cycling clubs are the best way to get into riding with others I find. They're always very welcoming and allow for people of all levels.
Lookin forward to hearing how you get on, and enjoy the draft ;)
i liked and subbed as you are awesome! thanks for talking about your FTP experience
Appreciate that, looking forward to making some more videos about it all soon.
Never underestimate the training effect of riding with cyclists that are much fitter than you. I trained for Tour de Cure a few weeks back with a group of absolute freaks where I was always the last one to reach the top of the climb. When I came to the tour, it quickly became obvious that whilst I still wasn't as fit as them, I was far fitter than the tour required of me and substantially fitter than what I was prior. Now time to get on the trainer!!!!
Hard to find faster groups for you mate. You’re always hella strong!! 💯
Haha, need to be to stick on your wheel!
Very searchable title here. Great video! Hope you keep making videos here on YT. 🙌
Thanks
good job getting to that ftp, I am targeting that for next year (about 330W).
I have a smart trainer for some time but did not do a lot of structured training, I just liked to ride on rouvy on famous climbs and that keeps me on my toes at about 240-255 W FTP. Now I started to add more Zone 2 training (lactate under 2 mmol) and I noticed a huge improvement in my ability to ride a lot of time without blowing up and recovering way faster than when I was doing only hard deep sessions. Also, this year I bought power meter pedals (garmin rally 200) and they provide me with great insight both in terms of power and how I pedal. This seems to allow me to also go for a group ride with friends, but I leave earlier, grind my 1 hour session, then do almost z2 or recovery with them. My ftp is not going up right now with this, but my ability to ride rather fast and recover is something I did not believe I could achieve.
Very nice video and good luck with your ftp going to pro levels :)
Building an ability to recover faster is probably more important I reckon. Having power whilst out on the road is great
😮
I like that theory! Kudos!
It's the only thing keeping me sane now....some what anyway
Good, informative video. Thanks for sharing.
Don’t forget the importance of base training during the off season . Your FTP is only usable when you can bust out a 5-minute effort after 100km of rolling hills. This is not just for racers, but for anyone who want to keep riding.
Made that mistake before and not had a rest phase 😅
Great vid. I feel the same on my journey.
Never bored with zwift I love it
I'm trying out XERT rn and i am loving it! It tracks all your progress with AI and gives you the ability to choose between a workout session (intervals) or simply riding with your friends till you reach your suggested XSS (xert's version of TSS to measure your effort).
I've never heard of this platform, will give it a google 👍 how long have you used it for?
@@SpinAnGrin used it for some data fields on garmin and training analysis for abour 3 months and as a intervals sheet for about 1! Its a bit complex in the beggining because there are lots of new terms and so on, but totally worth it! Let me know what you think
Will do, appreciate the tip. I'll have a look into it this week
@@SpinAnGrin how's it going with Xert?
Still haven't gotten around to using it properly actually. Life got in the way a little bit I'll get around to trying it soon hopefully
You should probs do some videos on zone 2, then some on the intensity work outs you do. Also how long it takes to get better.
tip for even more improvement: structured training is good and all, but typically the plans like “build me up” have pretty easy and random workouts that feel hard, but dont really provide much benefit. if your focus is improving your sustained power, i suggest doing threshold and vo2max workouts. 2x20, 3x15, 3x8, etc. avoid junk miles, ride at atleast 65% for endurance rides. save junk miles for outdoor fun imo if your focus is performance. 9/10 or 10/10 on your workouts in RPE. if you finish a workout and feel like you couldve done another interval, get back on and do it 😂
i do one threshold workout and one vo2 workout a week. also a long ride every 10-12 days or so
2 years ago my first ftp test landed me at around 250 at 70kg, now its 380 at 75kg
Woah, that's an incredible jump in FTP. My biggest hurdle with structured training at this point is fitting into my schedule. I just need to decide what my goal is I guess
@@SpinAnGrin for sure. if you have a set goal and focus on that, you'll see improvements rather than jumping around in what you are actually training your body for. most of my weeks are 10-13 hours
@@yeyeTF2do u do Z2 workouts?
@@hellohanma5717 yea, but i wouldnt call them 'workouts', just rides
I wanna join the 350+ watts league. I'm 73kg and 320w...
Step 1: be born with >60vo2max
Step 2: ride your bike a lot
Done, over 300 FTP, you're welcome
This. You could also lower that VO2 but with a 80 Kg muscly build so your 300W FTP is only 3.75W/kg.
I treated myself to a whole rig up- rocker plate, Kickr V5, 13th Gen Intel PC with GTX 1660 Super GPU and a 55" 4k TV, with a Vacmaster 54 fan for last winter as I was sick fed up of my fitness going down the shi**er every Bleak Scottish Dark Winter when even with the best intentions you NEVER get out like you'd want. I subscribed to Wahoo X for RGT, love it far better than Zwift for my needs, but it wasn't until January I discovered the SYSTM part of it...TOTAL GAMECHANGER !!! Did the 4DP test, found my weak areas (MAP/FTP...I'm a "sprinter" apparently) and put in a solid structured interval program, 2-3 intervals a week plus Z2(either SYSTM "Films" or RGT 100km rides) and in 8 weeks took my FTP (on their "Half Monty" test) from (yep a pathetic)190w to 254w.... I used to hate winter but now I'm not bothered one bit, will get on it sooner this year as out IRL I'm kinda stuck/plateaued without the intervals, but enjoying what weather we get....
So many questions for you!
How do you get on with the 4DP test? I've heard that's a much more accurate testing platform than ramp tests?
Do you enjoy the rocker plate? I actually just sold mine as I had always ridden without one and found it was just too big for the space
@@SpinAnGrin It went ok, 2 attempts at the NM section but on the second I came unclipped (my fault, MTB SPD's I hadn't cranked up release screw from using IRL so were set for easiest release!), the MAP (5 mins) and FTP(20mins) I must admit were mentally stressful and they are really tough to know how you've done- did you go in at the right level etc to hold on, not sure if you had a trainer or someone to push you at your side you could get better results etc. The AC was a minute and like an extended NM... these seem to be my two areas that are strongest though. I've since used the Half Monty as it's far less likely to throw up a user error, more consistent and is far less daunting. Also my weaker areas are what this test seems to focus on(MAP/FTP), there is no NM/AC element to it.
The RP does take up some room (Lifeline model) but I removed it for the 4DP in case it skewed the results and hated the feel of it during that hour...it makes these 3-4hr RGT rides bearable having a bit of movement though, and I've mastered the correct technique for out the saddle (bike leaning away from whatever foot is at 6 o'clock down position). I want the Kickr Climb but then again a lot of money and it may just make the whole setup messy.... The PC upgrade was so worth the money giving 60fps in High on 4K (needed a new one anyway, 10yr old cheap laptop was putting out 9-12fps in Medium on a 720p tv)
I guess it makes sense that with every attempt at the 4DP, you get better from experience. I've heard good things about the wahoo system so I might see if they have a free trial 👍
I want the climb also, it's one thing that I think will really help climb training with the angle of the bike. Would love to try one before I buy but I don't know anyone with one yet :/.
I still use an Apple TV and can imagine the better quality a proper PC would give. I just need to curb the spending at the moment
That's hilarious... All the full kit and.... SPD's. 😂 Got to keep it real after all.
@@markfawbert2991 Can walk about the house without f**king the flooring up eh... IRL even though I use SL's now, living in the rural Scottish Highlands you can't often get a 2G/phone signal, let alone a taxi where I ride, so in a catastrophic failure of something on the bike I cannot fix walking may be the only option....roadie shoes are great as long as you are on the bike...Might go back to SPD's anyway this spring as I'll be shifting to more "gravel" riding as too many idiots on the roads around here....tourists, rural worzels in 4x4's, boy/girl racers, delivery drivers...
Solid video mate. Just sub
If i traing 30h a week, approximaly how much time is needed to go from 300 to 400w ftp? I went from 140w to 271 in less then 4 months.
Thank you 👋🏼🙂
Good advice about riding with people better than yourselves. I have to get back to that.
How possible to get more than 300 ftp. I'm 48yo for 168cm and 69.5kg my FTP is 203. What training should i do?
Don't try and stay at your peak. As tempting as it seems to constantly be improving, you will need a break, whether that's a week or two off the bike, or just an off season with low lower intensity.
Time off the bike is always something I've struggled with. I need to do more of this to fully recover and not overtrain
Best thing about the zwift test is it gives you a high ftp
yup - I can do that test but I wouldn't claim my FTP is x based on a short ramp test - the one true way is to ride for an hour at your alleged FTP
@@lechprotean disagree with this. your true ftp is what you could do for an hour if you get everything right - pacing, head in the right place etc. which is hard to do and needs practice.
I think you should continue to do what you now seem to have effectively done; periodize different types of training. Intervals make you better, and endurance rides too, but neither will alone give you improvements forever. The improvements comes because your body needs to adapt to something it is not used to, but sooner or later it gets so used to it, that you need do change something to stimulate further improvements.
If I should recommend something else to throw into the mix in periods; strength training (and if possible; stair-intervals - 4 to 6x 60-90sec - effectively an exercise of endurance-strength, which targets the same muscles used when hillclimbing on the bike). Many cyclists fear this type of training because of soreness, and will (if anything) only do it during off-season. But soreness is only a startup-problem -do enough of it and the soreness will not be a problem after a few weeks, and if you structure it the right way, you can easily combine it with harder workout programs in-season. The key is to not have separate days for strength - there’s a limit to how many hard days you can fit into a week and still recover, so instead of having, say, 2 interval days, one long ride and then add a strength day on top of that; just make those interval days harder by adding short strength-sessions afterwards, ideally several hours later the same day, but if you’re time-crunched like me, its also possible to do it immediately afterwards. It’s hard, but.. it should be..!
I did this doubling (and the stair-climbs) myself this spring, over 7-8 weeks, taking inspiration from some podcasts interviewing a couple of top-level athletes, who mentioned it, and saw the biggest improvements I’ve had in the last 5 years.
Thanks for the response. You mentioned a few things that I've been debating but also managed to answer the hypothetical questions that go with it.
I'm starting to understand the importance of strength training to aid in my cycling but I'm yet to implement a consistent strategy. I hadn't however considered including it on hard training days.
My other struggle is the normal family life time crunch, but if I can find time to ride I can find time to train.
For now, my biggest "priority" in regards to my training is an upcoming 250km gravel ride. So everything is around endurance. After that, I will need to focus on what type of riding I do. Be that group rides, or long rides and maybe focus my training specific to that.
Thanks for taking the time to write the above. You've echoed with more detail what others mentioned. This only highlights the benefits. Watch this space I guess
Glad to hear! I absolutely agree that you shouldn’t change things drastically before an important event, especially not one which is that demanding.. But in the long run (here we are talking years more than months), even events like that might benefit from incorporating strength training, maybe not when it comes FTP or specific performance-measurements, but it could help you resist general fatigue better. Its also wise to progress slowly at first, if you haven’t done strength training before. Start with low weight and many repetitions (12+ per set, 3 sets per exercise) before going to the opposite end of the scale to build max strength (1-6 reps per set). This both to learn the techniques and to allow your body to adapt in order to prevent injuries that might occur if you jump straight into heavy lifting.
That adaptation-period will also be a good time to test out different strategies to implement it in daily life and in other training programs, although soreness will affect things differently than when you have passed the soreness-period; when I am sore, day 2 and 3 are worst. I can do a decent workout on day 1, but on day 2 its usually impossible to get training done and day 3 is just light training at best. When not sore anymore, day 1 is better used to recover, then day 2 can be another hard day. But there will always be individual variations on what works best. The only way to find out is to try..!
When it comes to specific exercises and such, both Dylan Johnson and Road Cycling Academy-channels have some good videos on this, the former also with references to some of the leading research on the improvements strength training can have on cycling performance. But it doesn’t have to be complicated either; for performance gains the focus should be mostly on leg work and the type of exercises that mimics the pedaling motion; leg presses, squats, lunges and step-ups/stairclimbs in different variations, and in the beginning you can probably do much of it at home with just a kettlebell or two, which makes it much easier to fit it into the weekly program.
Nice. I can see myself incorporating some Boddy weight training soon. I can also include my boy for added weight 😁
Interested to know when you are riding with people that are better than you what sort of distance and duration are you doing and how often?
Club bunch rides on a Tuesday. That's about 75km total but 50km is at a pace. It also includes 4 sections that everyone races ranging from short 1minute climbs to 15 minute rolling hills between towns.
If I can, I will do 2 of those a week, commuting and then a long ride on the weekend between 4-6 hours.
So an average week is maybe 10 hours ideally. I don't aim for distance, more time at this point.
In the winter of 2020 I raised my FTP from ~240 to 310 at 67 kilos. All with a help of a cheapest magnetic turbo-trainer + Stages powermeter. No training apps, just a good old staring at the Garmin.
Did like 1-2 HIIT sessions per week (literally till I can't hear and see), one 2 hours+ ride at ~80% FTP, lots of walking as a recovery.
Was I happy with the results? Hell no, I just destroyed my ability to have fun on a bike, it became a chore (quite painful chore tbh). Couldn't look at my road bike for like a year 😐
Yep, I feel that pain. Unless I have an event of some sorts, I have no interest in structured training at this point. But I'm having more fun on the bike than I ever have before
i only have recently gotten a powermeter so what i tell is mostly by feel:
what worked for me:
type 1:
-45min to work for 16k with the bike in any weather. 45min back after work
-starting 3x week and later 5x week
-1h of blasting on saturday
15-20rep for 3 sets legpress close to puke. idk anymore if done once per week or more.
did this wen i was 29. ftp on indoortrainer with no fucking fans for 20min. went from 140 to +190W on gymergo in a few weeks. lost some weight too.
type 2:
3x/week 2.5-3h ride sprinkeld in some bpm 150 intervals for 10min in. but weather an time is a factor here in hamburg germany.
type 3: what i am trying right now is adding intervals in the gym 2x week and z2 for an hour if possible aft3er work. some intervalls for ftp in mind some for Vo2 max. also having a few blocks of squatting..
racing: puts you beyond normal limits but fatique is high too. so don´t over do it. sadly due to time and transport i can´t race very often. most races have no big advertising to so you don´t even know when some is running.
atm i am at 39y @ around 225W ftp. but i am a small guy of 170cm and my raceweight should be 61 but working in a warehouse beefed me up to 80kg :D
Ye, that kind of work I guess is always going to make you much stronger overall. Good for sprinting I'm guessing though?
@@SpinAnGrin imo i am okish at sprints with 900W for 20sec. and 1111W for 5sek. strength training gives you great torque and you hold more muscle mass in the legs during winter when you don´t ride much. cardio comes fast again if you ramp up the miles again.
and i kind of like it going uphill until its not more then 12%
Massive power, that's impressive
Ramp tests are great however I do feel they can over estimate your ftp. Like could you go out for a hour and hold near that or more so could you hold 332 what’s for 20 mins to give you the same ftp. Not saying they’re bad but think they can overreach and I am also saying this from my own experience
Tend to agree. I use it as a ballpark figure for when I'm climbing to be honest. I can do 320 for 20 minutes on a climb (I just posted a video where I did that) but an hour is around 300 for me currently
Choosing between intervals inside or just riding outside. Maybe I missed something but why can't you do the intervals outside? Find a hill or a quiet stretch of road. Also not using erg mode inside helps transitioning outside.
I've always struggled to consistently hold the interval power outside. I know that means it's exactly a skill I need to learn but it's going to take me while
@@SpinAnGrinI don't think it matters that much if you go 20 watts over and under the target power during the intervals. As long as the average at the end hits the target. I do my 3 min vo2 max intervals on a hill near mine, and if my target is 360 watts it'll always drift between 320 and 390. But the average is always about right. It still has the same effect.
Regarding your previous comments about not being able to stick to zone 2, you have to really leave your ego at home lol. Zone 2 is so important that it mustn't be overlooked. I used to go hard all the time when I started road cycling 3 years ago. But then learnt to curb my ego, every ride doesn't have to be a race.
Nice work on getting to 317 though. At 51 with only 3 years on the bike, I'm hovering around 300. And hope to move above that. I use Trainerroad, and love the AI ftp detector which I've found pretty accurate. I hate doing the ramp test.
curious if you do much zone 2 / aerobic workouts, or do you focus on pushing hard to most / all workouts?
Zone 2 predominantly would be commuting in and out of work. I like to do a zwift climb session once a week but the rest is group rides. Some of those however would be considered HIIT training due to me trying to keep up with people 😅
How many group rides did you do a week? Cheers
@@spanky590You should do 20% HIT and 80% LIT. Less hours Training (e.g. 4hr/week) more % HIT
2 at most at this point which are 2/3 hours long 👍
I like the sound of less hours
you should also do the 20min FTP test protocol. That is warm up, then 5min max effort (for you around 380-420w), followed by max effort for 20min. Then take 95% of your 20m average power. Compare that with your ramp test derived FTP. I'd recommend trying out Ingebrigsten style interval workouts. They do 5 x 6min at slightly lower than FTP pace, so for you that would be around 280-300w, and also 10-20 x (2 to 3 min intervals) at slightly faster than FTP pace
Thankyou. Is there a resource online with more details on this type of training? Do you know if it can be done indoors or is it purely outside?
@@SpinAnGrin zwift has a workout for it
@@SpinAnGrinyeah zwift has one with 20 mins. But the results can be pretty different from the ramp test. For the 20 min you need to pace yourself pretty good. So you might want to try both tests, see which one fits you better and then stick with this test protocol to track your ftp development
@@SpinAnGrinramp test is super inaccurate. 20 min FTP test is a lot more accurate.
For me Ramp test results 300 + watts
Vs
20 min test 274 watts.
I’m a lot more confident in 20 min test.
I'll attempt one soon, I just need to prepare myself I think
W/kg is a better measure. There are lots of people over 300w but they're 75kg+.
W/kg only matters when you climb though
4.2 W/KG currently. I'm pretty happy with that for now
Ye, I suck on the flats to be honest
@@user-qy8ph8tf3d or while accelerating.
@@dpcater Just don't sit on the front! You're also saving more energy on the climbs so you have more to give on the flats.
Its all about volume guys. How many weekend warriors ride an average of 12k or more a year? So thats the secret for upping vo2 max also. It will take time. Period
Agree, having that base really is key. Your body is so much more used to the strain. It took me a good year to build consistency
4.2w/kg is great and you'd be among to strong guys in your group. I'm hoping to get 3.5 soon just so I can keep up with the guys in my local club 😅
If you notice that you couldnt make any substantial progress from where you are right now (sort of hit a plateau), try incorporating weight sessions to target specific muscle groups
I've heard a lot about this but honestly I'm very aware that I just don't know which exercises to complete. Are there any specific ones that you can recommend such as free weights of dead lifts?
@@SpinAnGrinI like Wahoo Systm with its HIT and Strengh workouts. Also have a look at Yoga to protect your body from damage.
There's a gcn video about weighted squats and how it helped increase max power when sprinting. Another avenue which can help.
@@SpinAnGrin: Dylan Johnson has some good video's on weight training for cyclists. Just search for "dylan johnson weight training" in the youtube search.
I tried hula hooping. Didn’t do jack for my FTP. Interval training helped a lot more 🤷♂️
Did something similar with my wife 🤣
#1 rule for anyone wanting to do endurance cycling, if you can sustain 80-85% of your ftp for 50-120 miles then you are in good shape. Lots of people have crazy high ftp but can not utilize it for longer than 20 min intervals!
Yep, I'm also in that category but I'm working on it
That would make you a 'diesel'. You'd probably never get dropped, but also probably never win any races.
Did 88% of my FTP (290w) for 2 hours a few weeks ago 😎
Beast of an effort that mate
@@SpinAnGrin Diesel all the way !
I only do high intensity on my trainer. Then most of my endurance rides are outside.
Thats pretty much the same as me now. Much more manageable
I raced at elite level for many years 90s 2000s,wouldn’t have a clue what my ftp was never even used a heart rate monitor. I do now I’ve stopped racing, and realise what a benefit knowing and training to these metrics would’ve been. My point is it’s not the be all and end all. Find a good group of talent to train with and you’ll improve. Start racing and you’ll improve even more plus much more fun than sitting on a home trainer.
after having covid extremely badly i dropped to a 230w FTP, almost gave up riding and every ride felt like a battle. 2 years later im at my best ever fitness sitting over 100w higher than that low of 230w. i think the number one thing to raise ftp is riding more z2 and getting the volume up. pair that with racing and other high intensity intervals.
personally racing takes you to a place you wouldn’t ever go in training or even a group ride so this has been what has pushed me over 300w which i wouldn’t have dreamt of before
What kind of racing? Like crit racing or one day racing?
💯 Agree that you go deeper and harder when doing any racing.
@@SpinAnGrin both, crits of 1 hour or less are good for top end but equally longer road races like 3 hours helps a lot with enduring repeated and extended anaerobic efforts.
I guess it's about finding the balance
What if i dont have a group ride to ride with and winter is coming , do u recommend zwift or traineroad i want to train to my best , i am 26 years old
I use both. Trainerroad workouts while rolling around the Zwift world. On the iPad my Wahoo Kickr and my Polar H10 HRM can connect to both apps at the same time. TrainerRoad controls the kickr in ERG mode, and Zwift can see the power output.
I personally like the gaming side of Zwift. It's way more engaging than trainer road however, trainer road would provide more structure and bigger results.
The first time I tried this, I forgot to turn off Zwifts ability to control the trainer. It all had a little melt down
And make sure L2 training is in abundance (endurance)
The power curve in TrainingPeaks is very useful as it gives you your 60min best power. i.e. your real FTP.
I would need to subscribe to be able to see this I'm guessing?
your 60min best power won't ever give you your real FTP until you went MAX on those 60 minutes ;-)
I find the wahoo ramp (half monty) very good, as it has a 20min effort after a ramp, where you maintain a power output within a specific HR range. Far more accurate I found compared to a classic ramp-only test. Haven't been able to crack 261 myself but ill get there.
Can I ask, after you've done the ramp effort at the start. Does it give any Indication what power you should aim to hold for the 20 minute effort?
@@SpinAnGrin Yeah you start pedaling to target HR and it gives you a ballpark power to aim for.
That helps target the effort at least. I'll have to give it a go 👍
I think you also need a body that adapts well to training. My FTP has always been somewhere betwee 230 and 250 no matter what I do. And I've done the structured training and the riding with people better than me.
Makes sense. How many hours a week did you train for out of curiosity
Are you recovering properly though? That's a huge part. If you're not sleeping enough, eating well etc you can do more training but you're not actually absorbing it.
We have a 2 year old so sleep is always questionable 😅
@@SpinAnGrin Thats going to be your biggest problem with pushing extra volume and/or intensity. Obviously its unavoidable but you may get to a point where actually more training isn't going to make you faster as you might not be able to recover from the training. It's always a balance isn't it. Figuring out how much you can actually get away with, with current life stresses.
Certainly is. 10/11 hours a week is my absolute maximum I've found. Beyond that, I'm digging a hole I can't recover from.
Let’s go get dropped. It will make us faster! I love it. Great work!!
When they gap you, it's always a downhill feeling 🤣
I've no idea what my ftp is, i don't have a power meter, but i can commute 9km in 17:45 with an average 30.5km in London
My brain can't comprehend how that's possible with all the traffic lights
without accounting for stopping or perhaps drafting behind , i don't know a "BUS" I'd say about 140.
The power of the draft.
@@vinniep01 How do i draft something which is travelling slower than me lol. no drafting whatsoever
@@ratcheeseman Ah so pretty low. I'll need a few good years to up that lol
Step 1: Start at 285
4.2W/kg is great, what's your fitness background?
Didn't really have one prior to cycling. I struggle to even run a 5km Parkrun still
That's rather a 415 Max Aerobic Power test than a 300w Ftp test... the anaerobic contribution is much higher compared to the longer 20-30min max efforts..
Is there another method I should try? A lot of people have pointed toward the wahoo system full Monty as more accurate testing method
@@SpinAnGrin It's hard for me to suggest methods as either one will push you out of your comfort level ;-)
Personally, I don't focus too much on FTP values. I only do a test every 3-4 months.
The best test would be a 40k time trial... You know you won't push max at the start, and as you go on you can increase your RPE (rate of perceived exertion) to max for the last 10 minutes. However, I tend to do a 25-30 minutes 'max' effort as a test.
If you don't like the 40k time trial, do Alpe du Zwift at MAX effort. Just go RPE 8-9/10 for every segment. Ride the Alpe 1x every 3 weeks, and it will be both a good aerobic training AND a better estimate on FTP. If you feel like 300w is your FTP, you should theoretically be able to finish the Alpe du Zwift in 49 minutes à 4w/kg ...
If that seems daunting, try to do a workout with 2 x 20minutes... If you're almost dying in the first effort or can't complete, you can certainly say the 300W is an overestimate and your aerobic endurance is underdeveloped compared to your anaerobic side.
Do you have a powermeter on your outdoor bike? It will give you beter insight on your FTP, as you say others push you to harder efforts.
I'm a bit confused on the group rides with 'faster people': How do you experience the fatigue? Are the rides with a lot of cornering and does it take a lot to recover after each 15-20 effort? Or are it long steady paced efforts? Are you riding on flat terrain or short, punchy hills? If it are max steady paced efforts, then you should drop out of the group after 40-60 minutes, as you talk about doing 100k rides? If it's all about cornering, it's a good push on your anaerobic side... If it's on the longer end, this might be a good FTP boost.. However, you might be too fatigued to have some consistency in training for the other days of the week.
What I find good resources: Watch the YT channel 'WKO Education' .. Or listen to the 'Emirical cycling podcast episodes on FTP / VO2 max (some episodes are too scientific, but the conclusions can be very valuable)
@@SpinAnGrin The full test might be more accurate, yes! However, I've read the protocol and it does MAX sprints, MAX 5 minute efforts,a 20 minute effort (that you detest) followed by a MAX 1 minute .. That's just too much in one workout in my opinion.. You should do a 1 minute effort when your fresh.
If you then want to train your 1 minute performance, get to know your max 1 min effort, and then do a workout like : 8x1' à 95% 1m MAX ... This will be a good trigger for your body to improve anaerobic side.
For FTP, you could go sweetspot training. If your FTP values are overestimated, you might end up doing treshold workouts, which will also be a good aerobic stimulus, eventhough at the cost of a higher fatigue.
Sounds like the most important thing that I need to focus on initially then is understanding what power I want to work on. So either endurance or sprints for example.
Thanks for the above, it's given me a lot to think about.
@@SpinAnGrin yeah, if you're not racing, a 270W FTP with a 450W 5' punch might be better compared to a 300W FTP with a 370W 5'... It's all about the intensity/duration relationship and your goals
is all relative, your weight is 75kg➡️317:75kg=4,2 for example if you're 58kg rider 317:58=5,4 for less effort you've 4,2 watts per kg 😂
Probably about the best six minutes on the cyclosphere. Lower your cadence. That is my top tip from whereabouts it sounds like you are
cries in 160cm 58kg
55yrs. Ftp is 200 at moment is 300 realistic ? I've got a tri athlete that gives me zwift wk outs
If you're willing to spend time doing the interval sessions required to raise it then I don't see why not.
My focus now is in holding the higher power over prolonged climbing periods. For a triathlon, I'd train for the time of the cycle leg
Volume. Volume, volume, volume. Then you ll see what you're made of. You have to at least ride 5x a week for many weeks to really unlock anything. To avoid burning out you'll soon see how much intensity you can tolerate within these sessions. If you manage 2, it's already great. Hard sessions tend to toast me pretty bad. "Never" do more than 3.
@@pierrex3226yes I'm training 5 to 6 days on zwift a week have a structured thing with a guy that was good at cycling 🏴
Dont train the ‘hard’ too much. Polar does work. -U10
I think I'm discovering that now. Any tips?
For amateurs works yes
If you're using Zwift as a replacement for fun outdoor rides, you're using it wrong.
You don't pay my sub.
Melb: 4 seasons in a day.
Truth 👏
I hate to be that guy, but now take this ramp FTP and feed it into your structured workout plan. Chance is big that you’re going to fail almost all or VO2max/FTP days. Thing is, Zwift ramp is horribly inaccurate in assessing the FTP. If you in the lucky 1%, result is to low and you’ll be able to train with new set FTP (albeit with limited gain). However, for most people it sets FTP way to high.
I'm going into a training block soon so I'll find out. Fingers crossed I don't blow my doors
No off the shelf plans from swift, training peaks or any body else will help you. You need a cycle coach who can look at your results each day and adapt your
training daily to suit
I'm debating this but the cost comes into play. I know you get what you pay for and it's also probably the best investment you can do.
Need to get some racing. Numbers are not everything there is
Watch this space 🙌
Structured training will give the largest improvement. As for going on group rides get a battery assist bike, that way you can go long, at zone 2 power, without doing over-unders. This way your CTL won't be as high leading to better recovery and the ability to preform your higher intensity intervals in a better physiological state.
then u might as well stay in the back. I dont want to see a fn ebike in my groupride unless its a fast one that can lead for shits and giggles.
@@ronm7114Taking ownership of the group ride I see
@@DaM.1 indeed its mine and mine alone. Everybody in MY groupride has to follow my direct orders. Dumbass
I love ebikes and might be buying one for my wife soon. I can't say I would want to turn up to a fast bunch ride on one yet. Not unless they want me to motor pace them 😅
@@ronm7114 I'm a old-man fella and can only go on pack rides if I have an assist these days. You have to look twice to see I'm on a ebike, it's a drop bar one. It just allows me to not burn out.
You have made good progress but FTP is the power you can sustain for 60mins.
Agree. I can whilst climbing but I'm yet to be able to hold this power on the flat :/
FTP is largely theoretical as well. It’s the 60 min max power if everything (nutrition, rest, motivation, stress etc) is perfect.
That would be an incredible feat from a 48Kg cyclist, 6W/Kg+. Any target FTP realistically becomes a percentage of maximal power output, not some magical fixed number. Ridiculous.
Get a cycle coach
Watch this space
317watts is not your FTP. Now try 317watts for 60 mins and you will not able to do this. This is more for 40 to 50 mins.
Functional Threshold Power is in the title though isn’t it “Functional”. 300 watts is all well and good for 20 minutes, but where’s your HR at? What’s the mmol’s of lactate at FTP?
When I was being coached, I’d do a 20 minute effort and be having blood taken, and at 4mmol, we would take the HR at that. That’s where the cross over from aerobic to anaerobic is, so my thinking is, what’s the point in putting out 300 watts for 20 mins if you’re in the grey zone? I’d train my body over the coming months with intervals and MAE riding (along with 3 days a week in the gym) to raise my blood lactate threshold. I started with a BLT of 158bpm, and after training it was 170pbm. I could ride aerobically at 80% of my max, so I can do a 20 minute effort on the turbo at 170BPM and still remain aerobic.
Was this something that you did recreationally with a coach or was it for professional purposes?
I'd love to dive deeper down the rabbit hole but just can't justify the cost when it's essentially a hobby for myself.
This has enabled me to know what I can hold for 20/60/80 minutes and I'm pretty happy just clearly knowing that at this point.