Part One: Christopher Columbus: Bringer of the Apocalypse | BEHIND THE BASTARDS
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Part One: Christopher Columbus: Bringer of the Apocalypse | BEHIND THE BASTARDS
Robert is joined by Michael Swaim to discuss Christopher Columbus
Original Air Date: September 6, 2022
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There’s a reason the History Channel has produced hundreds of documentaries about Hitler but only a few about Dwight D. Eisenhower. Bad guys (and gals) are eternally fascinating. Behind the Bastards dives in past the Cliffs Notes of the worst humans in history and exposes the bizarre realities of their lives. Listeners will learn about the young adult novels that helped Hitler form his monstrous ideology, the founder of Blackwater’s insane quest to build his own Air Force, the bizarre lives of the sons and daughters of dictators and Saddam Hussein’s side career as a trashy romance novelist.
New episodes twice a week on iHeartRadio.
#BehindtheBastards #BehindtheBastardsPodcast #RobertEvansBehindtheBastards #BehindtheBastardsMerch #BehindtheBastardsJohnLandis #BehindTheBastardsHost #BehindtheBastardsIvermectin #BestBehindtheBastardsEpisodes #BehindtheBastardsBestEpisodes
Here's the thing about the 'don't villainize the past based on today's standards'-- it doesn't acknowledge the fact that in their own time many of these guys weren't looked on very favorably. There were a lot of lies told in attempts to take over his position and wealth, but only some were lies and he still did awful stuff. The royals paid him well for his work but they didn't really like and admire what he did.
It was the hagiography of later centuries and his use as a propaganda figure to rehabilitate the image of Italian-American immigrants that distorted his legacy and tried to make him sound better than he was and that his crimes were acceptable in his time.
So condemning him based on the morals of today or the morals of the 15th century aren't dissimilar, and ending the embrace of lies told to make Columbus and other colonizers out to be heroes is fine.
It would help if more people were familiar with hagiography as a concept and how much it has shaped the teaching of our history and the stories in our culture.
Your jck @ss
A stance I take on the “you can’t judge people in the past by the morals of today.” Argument is this
Marginalized people were also people in the past. I’m pretty sure most really didn’t want to be treated the way they were. The people who treated them that way are wrong.
Suffering is still suffering, no matter what time period it is
morally sound, but sure sounds pointless if you want to learn anything from history
@@user-lc1te3rq2t
I love learning about history.
I don’t need to act as if historical figures are paragons of virtue or forgive them for any fault to learn from them.
@@user-lc1te3rq2t are you only able to study history when you're learning about good people that you like?
anybody over the age of 50 tries this excuse. 'it was a different time when I grew up, so that's why I use the racial slurs and litter and do the sex harassment'
I was homeschooled as a child from around 4th grade until I started high school, and my mother more or less made up our curriculum herself based upon the list of required subjects of the school district we were in. So when we were supposed to cover Columbus and such she got different books and we actually read Columbus' journals and stuff and so we accidentally got the woke 'oh wow, Christopher Columbus was a fucking monster, and also just sort of a really dumb guy' version of the story.
Geez, as someone with like a dozen homeschooled friends over the years, seems like you got the good (or just better) path.
@@Patrick-it8nkonly if you don't ask me about biology. :/
@@SavageGreywolf Fair, but also same for me 🤣 I got most of my good education from Animal Planet, Discovery and the like before they got all weird with the reality show garbage
"They would make fine servants. With 50-100 men we could subjugate the entire island"
@@SavageGreywolfI literally googled the answers to every question from my online schooling tests.
I bet they've fixed that a little bit. I finished school in 2009. Old people were just figuring out how to ruin the internet.
My 2nd BtB's show. I loved the kissinger series and have been considering another. Good choice with CC, a true villan.
I highly recommend the G Gordon Liddy episodes. That guy was an absolute nutcase.
@@franzfanzIt's so nuts. He's like the first modern Chud.
Gotta give the more comedic classics a look too. I'd recommend Steven Segal and L Ron Hubbard in that department...
My favorite series is the Dulles Brothers. Made my mind 🤯
The Vince Mcmahon 5 parter is a favorite
I know that people were very used to slavery of various types back then, but given Columbus' later antics (wanting to start a holy war and bring about the end of days; wanting to be named Admiral of the entire ocean and Grand Viceroy of whatever) his whole "not just trading slaves in Ghana, but experimenting with whether it's better to enslave whole families than individuals" arc kind of pushes him into "psychopath" territory for me IMHO. A budding serial killer, but with slavery and genocide instead of individual murders.
In other words, Columbus came from a terrible society in a terrible time period, but also, seems to me like an extra-dangerous person even apart from the world he lived in.
Reminds me of the people who defend Lovecraft with the 'by the standards of the time' shtick. By the standards of 1920s New England, Howie was a racist crank.
To think that 1490s Spaniards looked at what CC was doing and said 'whoa, dude, not cool' is quite remarkable.
Agreed, he was an arse. Although to be fair, HP's punishment was being HP Lovecraft. The guy was terrified of everything🤔
@@itswilbur3747 , it's been said that his artistic triumph was creating a fictional universe as horrific as the one he himself lived in.
@@robertwalker-smith2739 Yep. Great concepts, mediocre writer, probably a nightmare to live with 😄
@@robertwalker-smith2739 It's honestly not even all that horrific. HP had this idea that all of humanity was just as prone to feeling deep terror at anything that was even slightly unusual or uncanny as he was. But in reality if we ever met the creatures that Lovecraft thought would drive a person insane to even look at, most of us would either go 'Ew' or 'Cooool' (or both) without descending into gibbering wrecks.
That's why Cthulhu plushies exist.
@@RvEijndhoven Some of the real extra Outside Our Normal Spacetime shit is horrific in a "This thing is vast and uncaring and when it does pay attention is destructive" way or just being unable to really get a grip on the how\why of it, but......yeah we will definitely be fucking the fish men. The giant cone guys? Nah, theyre fine. The stubby ones that look like a starfish on top of a barrel cactus? Yeah also fine, I'd have coffee with one. Ghouls? I think anything that meeps is a cool little guy, and eating corpses is basically just what all kinds of things do. Also whatever you think a cat from Saturn might look like, if you like cats you probably would pet one.
I've decided that this right here is the best place on the whole interwebs.
AND a They Might Be Giants reference snuck in...
Love it, but to channel my inner “fun killer Robert Evans”, the ottomans called Constantinople Constantinople. They kept the name throughout the empire, and it was only renamed to Istanbul after the establishment of the Turkish Republic as a way of Ataturk trying to ‘turkify’ Anatolia. That’s why the song says it’s “nobodies business but the Turks”, because “it’s nobody’s business but the ottomans” is inaccurate and also very hard to rhyme with.
So take that behind the bastards! You hack frauds! You made a minor historical error and now I can dismiss your entire podcast as incorrect! You truly are the soyjacks and I am the Chad.
The greatest intro this show has ever had, and that's saying a lot
Columbus wanted the Elden Ring, but was morally and spiritually maidenless.
"you can't judge his actions by the standards of today."
Actually you kinda want to, by the standards of his day what he did was such a heinous crime the Church excommunicated him. By today's standards he would be packed off to a parish in the midwest and his crimes covered up.
Connor MacLeod & Santa are the last two Immortals - game recognize game.
⚡️ ⚡️ ⚡️
Robert Evans as the new "Watcher"?
@@miguelvelez7221 The Late, Heroic, American Journalist???
You forgot that Timur had died only 50 or so years before Columbus' birth, and that guy absolutely curb stomped the Ottomans, even if he also destroyed the Church of the East. I'm pretty sure the Sultan he defeated was Mehmed II's grandfather. In fact, his armies attacked Venetian and Genoese colonies in Anatolia.
EDIT: Holy shit, I didn't realize how different the cultures of Genoa and Venice were, despite how both were mercantile republics.
This is actually too nice to Christopher Columbus. The 'Black Death' was in the 1340's and 50's. CC wasn't born until 1451- a full century later. There were a number of serious plague pandemics in history, of which the Black Death is the most famous, but it's less well known that there were also lots of smaller, localised outbreaks, and low levels of endemic plague in between. CC wasn't a' child born into an apocalypse', just a guy born in a world where you had a constantly fluctuating background risk of dying of plague, amongst a bunch of other horrible diseases- many of which he brought to whole new continents so they could devour untold millions.
I was kind of confused by that, because I was pretty sure there were accounts of people into the 1500s noting things like "we had to take this other road that doesn't go through X Town, because apparently there was plague there." It would make sense if they were either talking about a different plague from the Black Death, or maybe just conflating most of the deadly plagues with similar symptoms around that time (give or take a few decades).
oh heck yes a swaim episode love that smol lil bean
This is the guy Fate Grand Order looked and decided "no, I won't have him be a waifu/femboy, I will depict him as he was"
Yup. Their portrayal isn't that much of an exaggeration, except for the summer event where Da Vinci and Columbus apparently made some childhood promise and raised a baby dinosaur together.
Astolfo is the only one we need
This is actually too nice to Christopher Columbus Pt 2: 'Sumptuary' laws weren't unique to Genoa. Versions were historically common in cultures worldwide in order to visually enforce class distinctions. Genoese sumptuary laws were descended from laws from ancient Rome, and many states in late medieval 'Christendom' had them in CC's lifetime. I.e. that shit was considered normal, and loads of people with technically low status who the money to buy fancy clothes just ignored it anyway. It was hard to enforce and so it often wasn't.
Come on, Robert, "Perfidious Peninsula"
It should be noted that there were other khans besides the big Mongol ones that everyone knows and loves, like Genghis. There was also a Turkish-Mongol guy named Timur who, just before Columbus's time (late 1300s), went and conquered a huge chunk of the Middle East, including that he basically conquered all of Iran and Iraq, as well as a huge portion of the "-stan" countries. His empire didn't really last though, and was pretty much totally gone by the time Columbus started his career. For all their incredible skill at conquest, the medieval Mongols (and their offshoots, like Timur) were really bad at setting up a stable, long-lasting government.
However, one of Timur's descendants was a guy called Babur who conquered most of India at the same time that Columbus was doing his genocidal shenanigans, and this Babur guy was the first emperor of the Mughal Empire ("Mughal" being basically the Arabic version of "Mongol"). The Mughal Empire more or less controlled India until the British rolled in and took over in the 1700s (I'm oversimplifying here for brevity's sake - India's a huge land with a very complicated history).
So the idea that Mongol khans might help the Christians liberate the Middle East was a very real possibility. It didn't happen... but it wasn't a totally insane idea. The Mongols (and their offshoots/splinters) had just conquered the Middle East again and it was very recent.
Not to mention, Timur himself ransacked Venetian and Genoese colonies on the Black Sea, and he completely destroyed the Ottomans for a decade or so, so he definitely would have made an impression in Columbus's circles. That, and what Timur did in Central Asia-Northwest India was pretty apocalyptic.
1:00:58 Wh... why am i getting New Vegas war flashbacks
At this point you have to do a podcast at least three episodes long about the Edmund Fitzgerald. The 29 sailors that died. The effects of the wreck on the local economies because of the loss of iron ore. And the maritime chapel and the rituals they still have today to honor the men who died.
Slightly more than a minute in, and this is the best intro yet.
Aw, Yis. Took long enough to migrate this one
BTB!!! YOU RULE ROBERTO. GRACIAS. 🍻 👏
I generally agree that italian economy had traditionally relied on slavery, but by 15-16th century it had been on it's last legs. Prices were raising fast and the traditional slave routes had been drying for centuries. [YES IT'S STILL BAD BUT I STUDIED THIS AND I WANTED TO IMPUT A BIT]
In general slavery in italy, even serfdom, had significantly reduced for centuries, especially after the rise lf the communes since 12th century. Genoa in particular was proud of the republican tradition, and like in many city LIBERTAS (recalling the values of freedom for citizens and subjects) was proudly displayed on walls and public palaces, as recorded by many travelers. Which make the fucking slave market even more hypocritical. But as said it was still accepted.
Edit: also in general the italian economy hadn't significantly relied significantly on slave labour since the end of the empire, as it costed far too much and was impracrical.
Further notes on the bible, reading it before the reformation was neither uncommon nor difficult, as things were much more relaxed. Generally speaking literacy in italy was among the best of europes due to the intense trade networks and business necessities, and latin was well known among the elites as it was standard to teach it. Most who knew latin could read the bible.
Then traslated versions weren't uncommon either, the so called vulgatas, and by 15th century some had been circulating for centuries. The main problem was the lack of production, that printing solved. Translated versions were even available post reformation, generally through request to the parish. Reading the bible wasn't a big problem, personal interpratation was.
Until people discovered how to use fossil fuels, if you needed a society beyond a certain size, you kind of needed some form of slavery. I believe this was a big argument of the US South in our Civil War and even now, on Reddit it find people wrangling over political noises being made about "sending all the Mexicans home" (it needs to be noted that in the US, if you're brown and you're not identifiably something else, you're "Mexican") and how US agriculture will just about collapse without our illegal, underpaid, expendable, not-really-slaves-because-they-can-leave people.
@@alexcarter8807 i just know for sure there wasn't the mass slavery roman empire used. Italy was divided in many small states, slavery of catholics was abolished, there was a mostly lacking presence of strong feudal states... so they had to fall back to other servitude types that weren't slavery. Fields leasing for each season for example was common, but there was also widespread property by small farmers in the north. A great percentage of the population was also urbanized, so that went against a functional slavery too, as was the political fragmentation that made escaping slavery in a polity very easy .
Simply put mass slavery like it eventually happened in colonial empire wasn't feaseable for a variety of political, economical and religious reasons. Not for supporting the economy. Of this we are quite certain thanks to the massive amounts of medieval documents detailing the intricacies of contracts and etc we have. Paradoxically things got much worse in the modern age with a resurgence of a feudal system. South italy always had a strong feudal system instead, and instances of slavery were more common, especially among enslaved muslim population, but generally servitude (much more lenient compared to russian servitude for example) was preferred.
Edit: that said imported slavery still existed but as the podcast said it wasn't for hard labour, as numbers were too low and prices too high for it to be convenient.
Around 1:11:00 talking about the Anthropophogi:
They were also called Blemmyes or Akepheloi and have a long history of being depicted in texts as headless dudes with faces in their chests. They crop up in weird places, like knights fighting snails.
Described by Pliny, Horoditus, and a BUNCH of other scholars all through the ages pretty much right up until the 1700s, it's really interesting reading about what people thought these torso dudes were all about.
Best intro ever.
Christopher being literate and having beautiful handwriting is sure a contrast from the narrative I read a while back saying he was illiterate and it was only one of his ship crew who wrote down what happened on his voyages.
"...That was the band Perfidious Isthmus with their new hit single 'We're All Just Metal Ripening in the Wind.' " 🤘
Listen to the song Christopher Columbo by Salty Dick aka Jerry Bryant. Perfect accompaniment for this video on the bastard.
I can't believe you didn't make the connection that Harry Potter presents slavery as a positive for the enslaved.
I did really like the facts on Cracked.
The crusaders could be a whole series in itself. Most of all, the 4th one, which left Constantinople a takeover target for any would-be expansionary empires.
Lol, penmanship is Columbus' art school
Don't worry, Swaim, the Pope would later accidentally screw Portugal out of colonizing South America because maps were bad.
The earth IS pear shaped, broadly speaking. It's an oblong spheroid. Not nearly as noticeable as a proper pear but astronomers still use the phrase when being brief.
Ca 37 mins in, but I gotta pause so ask ‘What did the Doge do? And what about the Duke?’ (Sorry this is an involuntary reflex at this time ;-))
We should close all art schools…wait
Persian Empire certainly had slavery in Iran proper it was less common but the greek and levantine satrapies extensively practiced slavery
it's always the failed artists 🤦
Inquisitors: "wow, this Christophor sure is an extremist"!
“I hate the North!”,- Furio Giunta
it's anti-italian discrimination!
Your account name 💯🤣👍
Mamma mia! 😮
I think metal actually gets more ripe the closer you get to Scandinavia
Love from a Shark3ozero and Vaush fan!
Any comment on the vaush allegations?
@@cjtherou4427 Sure. I really recomend his "Context" video he put out recently. But I can also explain certain stuff more specifically if you like?
ah, a red painted nazi
A rogue trader 40,000 years early.
As someone who lives between 3 of the great lakes, i cannot endorse the nuking bit. Think of the subs you'll lose
Also, in swedish, Kristoffer means sacrifice of christ
Lol, offering Christ OR offing Christ :P
@@Virjunior01 I thought it was in the meaning of [the] sacrifice [that] christ [made for us], but apparently it's a bit of a false friend, and comes from the greek Χριστόφορος (Christóforos), meaning bearer of christ, supposedly first given to an aphrcryphal man that carried the baby jesus across a river.
"The sins of witches, the sin of sodomy, and the sin of fraternising with the Jews"
Oh, so all the fun stuff then
They could have picked ANY other Italian to commemorate. 😫
I can't believe you are pushing the line about the fall of Constantinople being a disaster for European access to Asian trade. This is not at all the case.
Firstly, please look again at the geography. Yes, Constantinople is in a good position for trade between the Black Sea and Mediterranean. But this is not where most such Asian trade flowed. Most of it reached the Mediterranean at Syrian or Egyptian ports - nothing to do with Constantinople at all. (Nor even anything to do with the Ottoman Empire at that point, but the Mamelukes of Egypt.)
Second, before its fall, Constantinople was already greatly diminished and severely isolated: not a great trading centre at that time. This was because, by itself, Constantinople does not even control Black Sea-Mediterranean trade. And every other location along the Dardanelles, around the Sea of Marmara, and at the Bosphorus was already controlled by the Ottoman Empire.
Third, the Ottoman Empire (like other Islamic powers) was quite content to trade with Christians/Europeans. Of course they wanted 'their cut', as you put it - so does everyone in trade. And so did the Eastern Roman Empire when it was powerful.
Fourth, you talk about the trade interests of 'Europe' as a mass as if all such states were treated equivalently and shared a common position. This was in no way the case:
The real issue for the Iberian powers (and Genoa) was not who controlled Constantinople, but who dominated Eastern Mediterranean trade - *Venice* (who I don't think I heard you mention at all). Venice had a near monopoly on that trade coming out of Egypt and Syria. They had a close trading relationship with the Mamelukes in Egypt and, later, developed their trade relations with the Ottomans too.
In other words, 'Europe' was always able to buy spices, silk, etc during this period, and the fall of Constantinople had very little impact on this, if any. What bothered some states such as Genoa (as Venice's rival) was Venetian dominance over the trade.
In addition, Portugal saw an opportunity to break into the trade by finding a new route around Africa, bypassing the Venetian monopoly - and please note that their southward expeditions in search of such a route began in the 1410s/1420s, well before the fall of Constantinople. The desire to get around Venetian trade dominance was the key motivating factor, not to get around some kind of block that the Ottoman Empire was now putting on trade (which it could not have done in any case, since it wouldn't control the relevant Syrian and Egyptian ports until the 1520s!).
As events continued, interests of 'Europeans' continued to diverge. Venice allied with the Ottomans, Mamelukes and regional Indian powers, for example, to fight the Portuguese once they arrived in the Indian Ocean.
this is a very good episode for deconstructing white identity.theres no such place as whitestan!
I contend there is. Wherever the population is something like 95% white, 95% Republican, and 95% on Welfare, where the meth flows like water and the water has to be trucked in, where you're not a full adult until you've been in prison .... there you will find Whitestan.
He thought the earth was round not pear shaped, his map was based off of Marco Polo’s book, he knew he didn’t land in India, he knew he was somewhere new. If we are going to do a take down then let’s not use deceptive misinformation. You have plenty of material to go with lol
From literally his own translated writings: "I always believed the Earth was spherical: Ptolemy’s authority and experiences, as well as all the others who have written about this matter gave and showed as proof for it the lunar eclipses and other evidences that go from East to West, such as the elevation of the Northern Pole in the South.
However I have now seen so much deformity, that on second thought, I find the world is NOT ROUND in the the way it has been describe, but it has the shape of a PEAR, except where it has a nipple or most elevated point."