It’s insane that improvisation isn’t considered an essential skill. When I learn English as my 2nd language, I am expected to be able to communicate freely my thoughts in English. Learning music is just another language. Learning music without improvisation is like learning English by memorizing Shakespeares.
Agree 100%. As a working musician, now a pianist/organist, but previously trumpet, I've found that this is really just a culture thing within piano (and not even organ) that memorization is important. I honestly would go further than you and say memorization is NOT important at all pedagogically and that learning on it often leads to strong deficits in reading because memorizing and staring at the keys become training wheels that people never take off to actively work on the spatial awareness and proprioception at the keyboard, nor their ability to read and decode music in real time. I think you talk about improv, but I think sightreading on its own is the first step barrier, particularly for those from the classical tradition. You make that point at the end that some people push back because their world would change. Most of the push back I find from pianists is that they think sightreading would be impossible so they just don't try. They push back because they suck at reading. If their reading was decent, then they would find memorization of most of the music used for paid work is an EXTRA step, but to many it's the ONLY way for them to prepare. But when you have dozens of accompaniments that you're juggling simultaneously in the real world, memorization isn't an option. Now, the small amount of memorization necessary for things like page turns or difficult passages would occur through osmosis. I'm with you that the skills needed for both improv and sightreading will make people better memorizers. If they focused on the basic theory elements, understanding the music, maybe being able to quickly reduce a piece they are sightreading (maybe half faking because they can't grab all the notes)... with those tools in place, the memorization necessary will just happen...without any extra effort. Memorization is such a black hole of practice time that could be better spent working on reading, theory, ear, improv, comping in styles you're not yet comfortable with... any of a million things that are much more likely to show up in the day-to-day demands of a working musician. In over a decade of gigging I've never been required to memorize something. There have been times it was convenient or might've made for good stage presence, but never required. Sightreading on the spot in a rehearsal? Yes. Playing a song by ear? Yes. Comping from chords to take a request for a song I literally looked up on Spotify moments before playing it from chords on my phone for a singer? Absolutely. I really wish the old guard on this would die, but it's largely because academia is so sequestered from actual working musicians. No offense, but most people who trained in the classical way, focusing on big rep and memory either got in to a professor's job while the getting was good and have no experience having to actually play for a living the way most working musicians do, or they changed careers... or they started teaching privately. And how? The same way they were taught with no realization that the focus on memorization and rep is a relative dead end. Then music schools have the ridiculous requirements and keep the tradition of the blind leading the blind alive. Then it becomes sink or swim for graduates. The ones who happened to have picked up good reading skills, or maybe learned some improv on the side, or those who are just quick to adjust in the real world make it, but they do so often IN SPITE of their formal education, not because of it. Most of my peers who are doing well were good readers going into college because their private teacher pushed that early on. Some of them have band or choir backgrounds where reading is an every day thing and there's constant exposure to new music unlike many pianists who might only cover a handful of pieces in an entire year and memorize all of it by rote. I feel that the standard for a piano performance degree should be primarily about collaborative piano first with solo piano second. And I think most stylistic variety is really neceessary. There was a time when you could be a specialist, but these days working musicians are expected to do it all. It's definitely true in the trumpet world. Once you were either classical or jazz but now since so many can do both, it's just the baseline. I find that I can take a ton of work that my piano peers can't just because I'm able to fill multiple roles that they can't. I feel like going forward that's going to be more and more the case. More and more young pianists are learning to do it all... not because schools are teaching the, but because they invested in themselves and taught themselves because of stuff they saw on CZcams. As that becomes the baseline, so many classical specialist are going to find themselves driven out of work because of those of us who are simply more flexible. I'm seeing a similar thing in the theory world where suddenly people are having a wake-up call watching pop/game music theory videos and thinking, "Wait... what's a Cmaj13#11 and why wasn't I taught this in music school that I'm paying so much for!?" I'm extremely pleased to see you taking some care about what skills are viable and valuable so that your graduates can actually make music a career.
Very good comments. My undergrad degree is in Theory, with piano as my instrument. I play at the professional level. was astonished that most of the pianists in a master class for advanced pianists had no idea of the harmony beneath what they were playing. Only myself, the presenter, and a colleague from Kiev conservatory could talk about what was going on in the music. If there is no understanding of what the composer is doing, how can one make music? I know this is off topic but music is so much more than just the notes one learns (memorizes) to play.
How I wished I had learned how to improvise while studying music ( Piano Performance in the mid-80s) at University. I agree wholeheartedly with what you are saying.... it was so pointless to learn 4-5 pieces a year, and have the added stress of having to memorize them.... and for what?? All I can say is that it starts with the curriculum!! Why are those, who are in charge of devising the curriculum not taking the importance of learning how to improvise into account? Jazz majors are taught to improvise , as well as early music students. Even something as so important as sight reading, was not really taught... and back in the day, when I studied music, sight reading exam was a pass/fail. You pretty much had to learn this on your own.... sink or swim!! Hate to say it, but studying music at higher level really took the joy out of wanting to learn more about it! Once I graduated, I literally had closed the lid to my piano for about 5 years!! My love and earnestness to want to play only came back many years later... how awful is that?? Nowadays, in my mid 50s music is my absolute passion... I live, eat, breath music. All I want to do is to play and study music all the time!! Thanks Dr. John, for this great video, and thank you for having the courage to say things that are otherwise usually kept quiet.
Thanks for your story, I had the same experience! One upside of this pandemic is that I am going back to play/practice my music on my piano with all the time staying at home!!
By the way, most of the great musicians or composers from the past where Known to be astounding improvisers: Bach, Haendel, mozart, chopin, liszt, etc... In particular chopin/liszt were famous for theirs improvisations in the Paris "salons".
Hello Philippe. In English we write the surname as Handel (no umlaut, nor E to substitute for it) because Georg Friederich Händel, after his relocation to Britain, anglicised (or anglicized: both spellings are correct) his name to George Frederick/ Frideric Handel, and the surname is thus typically pronounced like the hardware that opens a door. Apologies if you already know this: but perhaps others don't.
Yes, the investment of time followed by an inevitable memory slip anyway is what I came to dread. I realised my hard won pieces were so easily forgotten and my reading skill so lowly that even resurrecting the piece was more brain ache. Glad to be breaking the cycle. There’s so much more happiness, freedom and energy in music than motor-memorising bar by bar ever yielded
speaking as a full time professional performance musician of over 30 years - I totally agree that improvisation is "more important than memorisation" (although improvisation obviously requires a great deal of memorisation in itself ...) - great series of videos 🎹❤️
Thanks for taking the "risk" of putting out this statement as a professional teacher. I completely agree. Throughout my career I have often referred to this, as a classical pianist and violist, "the classical handicap". Over the years I have developed SOME improvisational skills at the keyboard, which is to say as a church organist and music director I have become fairly comfortable at improvising ornamentation, cadencial interludes and the occasional obbligato line over written music... but to sit and need to vamp in a pit orchestra for a play, or hanging out with some jazz buddies over a 12 bar blues (I would not risk anything more elaborate) I sound like one of my grade three piano students. Which brings me to my question/statement (?) at 35, with a fairly successful teaching and performing career in a smaller community I must admit I am either too scared or too prideful to seek a jazz/improvisational piano teacher and say "hey, let's start from square one"...almost wanna use an alias, wear a wig and glass and be sure not to mention I have a performance degree... any advice?
Very good book on Jazz piano by Phil DeGreg(€30 or so). It goes step by step, the hip voicings, goes from beginning to profit level. I would also recommend CZcams Kent Hewitt:inspiring, humorous, and he has a very excellent book(my next purchase). Ron Drotos CZcams:KeyboardImprov goes step by step through the Real Book. Hope that opens a few doors gently. And don't forget Aimee Nolte(CZcams).All these folks have gentle,humorous, effective and encouraging teaching styles. Good luck with your creative journey. 🌹🌹🌹
I see more and more pianists playing from the score nowadays, even for standard solo rep! The few insane people memorizing Stockhausen and complete Ligeti Etudes are making life harder for all of us though.
I'm 67 years old now and started playing piano just last year and although very much a beginner, I find that your presentations not only inform but also calms my soul during this pandemic as well. Working on "Piano Adventures" by Nancy & Randall Faber at the 3A-3B level books.
I love your analogy to cooking, learning how to work with food to be a chef who can prepare a meal from scratch rather than simply a food server. Another detriment of all this memorization is that it can detract from learning to sight read well. For me, memorizing always came easy, but sightreading did not, and I had little incentive to improve it. Surprisingly, once I started to practice partimento, my sightreading actually improved, and I think it was because I had developed better ear/hand coordination.
I really agree with you! I started learning piano when I was 6, I liked practising, I was quite good at sight reading, I went a music school. But the tragedy was my memory. I wasn't so good, and no teacher, no one, taught me how I can memorise effectively. Nothing! The music theory was so so separated thing, I wasn't interested, I didn't have a clue how it can be tied with what I was trying to memorise. Playing in public was a death sentence. And I realised that after 15 years of intense practise, I was absolutely nothing without a sheet music (of something I can play) in front of me!! With a feeling of total failure, I didn't play piano for a long long time. But somehow it came back into my life and I had to start playing, and sometimes, in very small way, I had to "improvise"!! That was a big step out of my comfort zone but it was the only way I could go through my work. So I started to look for some material (I found you at this point), and try to change myself. I haven't progressed much, but some reward is already there! I can more easily memorise pieces and I get a feeling of "it will be somehow all right!" when I play. I feel I am living in a different world...and wish I was like this when I was a teen!
You have no idea how validating this video was for me. Memorization certainly has it's place, but I'll never forget the feelings of failure & guilt after totally blanking out at a competition. The scenario continues to play through my mind, even decades later. When you are young, you don't know always what to do in regard to competition 'protocol'. (At least I wasn't...not for this particular one). But I really wish I would have played WITH my music for the judges, knowing I would be disqualified, for me...myself. Thank you for this video!
I remember seeing a major concert pianist getting lost in a Schubert sonata, and (as she confessed later to the audience) - improvising Schubert until she remembered which one she was in and how to escape the movement.
Honestly I think that 80% of the improvisation skills you're mentioning pretty much boil down to harmonic awareness. Rock guitar players will never halt all of a sudden because they know that the pentatonic scale they're basing their materials off of works on the whole chord progression. On a somewhat similar note, yet a very different level, a great jazz player will never stop because they know what kinds of chords are supposed to happen at what moment. Worst case scenario, they'd end up arpeggiating substitute chords for the actual progression, which would work just the same. On the other hand, Im getting the idea that sometimes classical pianists focus on melodies, groupings, fingerings and single notes more than chords, meaning that if they forget a note, they have no clue of what notes could possibly work as a substitution for the very note that they can't remember. So yeah, what I'm mainly taking away from this precious lesson is "know your chords"
Rick Stopa started studying jazz harmony and piano voicings as a piano bar player to do standards, and now going back to debussy is a cinch harmonically. Harmonic awareness is what sets a sight reader apart.
Very good point, and if I could add rhythmic knowledge also can't be underestimated! This is the number one thing with jazz students, specifically, that hangs them up (maybe tied with harmony).
BTW, your (and others on here) introduction to partimento has made me a much more aware player. It's of course on the line between "realization" and improvisation, but as one who has played only from scores (and laboriously by heart) it's like opening a window onto music. I wish I could go back and start over (now 70 and just "getting it"). Thanks.
You are right thank you that l can make an informed choice. Improvisation is an unexplored track l want to explore. Thank you for your words of wisdom. Much appreciated Blessings Julianna 🎶
I completely agree with you, Cedar!!! I was classically trained but stopped playing for 20 years. Then went back just to do technical training on the piano. Finally, I was taught how chords work! And that was my Eureka!!!When finally a New World was opened to me for the 1st time!!! Thanks soooo much!!! 👏👏👏
Admittedly I'm commenting while only having read the video description. I think that improvisation is more important than memorization, especially for performance, because one might "forget" memorized music or otherwise not have it completely prepared, but one can ALWAYS make something up in an improvised context. As for myself, I could spend hours and hours getting a several-minute-long composition memorized and prepared, or I could spend hours and hours directly creating new music and honing the music which naturally flows from MY hands. To me, improvisation is just a more efficient use of my time, because my LIFE is the only time I have. And to paraphrase from the Bhagavad Gita: it is better to fulfill one's own duties imperfectly than to fulfill another's duties perfectly. in other words, it's better to imperfectly be yourself than to perfectly be somebody else!!!
as a young musician, nothing makes me go wilder than hearing wise people saying what they wish they knew when they were younger. imagine if they knew it all along, what would they have acomplished!!
@@andredelacerdasantos4439 True. However not having a teacher for 20-odd years probably set me back about... oh, 20 years, so there is a flip-side to that !
@@andredelacerdasantos4439 very observant. I think, why at age 6 did no one tell me to play thumb over vs thumb under; why no teaching of harmonic structure; why no teaching of before i play a note have in mind what i want it to sound like? So many, if only... In some places the best teachers are assigned to the young students. In the USA it often the other way.
Absolutely spot on and blindingly obvious to a 'contemporary' musician. I attended a college at which both classical and "light music" students shared a building. The ability to improvise was an essential element for the jazzers, but, in my humble opinion the straight players were far less developed or mature by graduation. Memorisation has little to do with a conscious understanding of a piece. It's a motor function task. Analysis was considered separate from performance skills by the straight players, and it showed in their general musicianship and employability after college. Impro was once important to the serious musician. Shame it's considered as something other nowadays.
Great comment on the trauma of forgetting the next part of a piece during a recital. Too many adult students have told me they quit at a young age because of this. For any teachers watching the video, please consider John's message so I don't end up with your student in 20 years.
interesting, the story at 7:00. My experience was a strange opposite. At the time I was a pop and rock guitarist who wanted to study piano. I THOUGHT I could read music, and I fooled some people at an audition for getting into a piano class, by playing the only thing I ever learned at the piano by myself (Mozart's Turkish Rondo, with the ending masterfully and convincingly always left out, because if I played it I would get into serious trouble and everything would fall apart.). Passed the audition and started to take the piano lessons right from grade 7-8 (I had REALLY fooled the audition people), and the teacher, a concert pianist, noticed that I could memorize really well, but that I was a bad reader, and that 'to be an excellent memorizer is great, but if I had to choose between being a great memorizer and a great sight-reader, I would unhesitatingly be the latter. Alwasy.'. From that day I demoted myself to piano grade 1, I started working at my sight reading (learning from scratch, really, and it was a gruesome experience. I kid you not, getting punched while sparring in martial arts was EASIER than learning sight reading from scratch). And I NEVER memorized ANYTHING again at the piano. So it is strange that the concert pianist you mentioned was sight reading Ravel and got laughed at. In my experience sight reading is a super power. Obviously I am not saying anything new to you. Thank you so much for the videos and your top notch expertise!
What you are saying is good improvisation is better than bad memorization. It's not really an argument. The flip side is equally valid. Good/correct memorization is better than bad/incorrect improvisation. Anything and everything correct is better/more useful than anything and everything incorrect. Properly cultivating both skills results in an incredible amount of (two-way) overlap. Therefore, properly cultivating either skill inevitably nutures the other. They are not separate entities. Mozart's mastery in both areas were not separate skills.
Thank you from the bottom of my heart! I’ve been a pianist for nearly two decades and I’ve had five consistent piano instructors and two master classes, and now I have my own little students... and I love Rachmaninov’s Church Music, although I have never attempted his famous Prelude, but I know what it sounds like. If you take a look at Daniel Thrasher on CZcams, he’s basically saying everything you already said except for a younger audience. And he’s hilarious, like Victor Borge was. My top YT pianists are K. Landry, K. Mosca, and J. May. Everyone else I don’t bother with. I always liked the 5 Browns but they’re all doing their own things now. I once had the incredible honor of performing in the Warsaw airport for about an hour or two, after being deprived of touching a piano for a solid month, and I had no music with me, and I did not attempt any Chopin because I did not want to offend any one there. But I had a great time. Hope I can visit again.
True: Pathetic weekend warriors dads are decent improvisers! I wish I could do the same on piano! That’s why I just bought your book on improvisation and it awesome! I knew you through Jeremy Siskind channel, you two are the best teachers on the internet!
Wonderful video as ever for which many thanks. I agree with you absolutely. One tiny thought ...there is no expectation no memorise pieces for ABRSM exams. Take care. Keep 'em coming.
In my opinion, as piano music is harder to read than other instruments (such as the melodic ones), the piano student is somehow forced to memorize music once he or she is not at the reading level even of easy pieces, so that becomes an habit. Also, as playing notes on the piano is super easy compared to other instruments, it is quite tempting trying to play pieces above your reading level once you can memorize every single bar by repeating it continuously. This way, the necessary time to learn proper reading along with playing the piano does not exist, and that becomes the "normal" throughout the life. At some point the student will be struggling between reading and/or memorizing, this way the idea of improvisation is not even considered. Maybe this is a problem that should be handled on the very beginning of the student's life, specially on classical piano students. Just a thought.
So True..I think understanding the harmonic/formal intent of the composer by the performer.. will greatly enhance performance of a piece. I like what you said about piano graduates ..who tend to improvise and read for a living more than memorizing .. unless for themselves..
Thanks a lot! I'm gonna put improvising in my daily practice sessions now. And I strive to be a classical musician Still I think you must be able to play all kinds of music to truly understand your own better.
Improv and reading skills to me are number 1, whatever the style and instrument. It's like learning to read and write any language. I personally still have a problem with modulating on the piano from any key to any key. Once I get this down, improv will be on it's way big time. As for reading, 1 sheet a day keeps the shame away.
Check Max Reger book (Modulation) and practice his progressions transposing in all keys (all first tonal regions are written in C Maj or a min). He wrote all the book as little 4 voices chord passages, as choral music.
I am not a trained or 'accomplished' pianist - I play and practice only for my own benefit, but I have learned one solid lesson over the years and that is, your memory will betray you. I need to learn how to improvise, but I don't know where to start.
okay. interesting. Heresy? maybe not, but many will believe so. In composition class, we had to write in the style of such-n-such composer. So, why not improvise in the style? & certainly if there is a flub, being able to improvise until memory recovers will be better than a fall apart? Or, should you stop and begin again at a safety point? I wish my memory skills were better. That comes very hard for me; but sight-reading is a breeze, until the passage is so difficult it must be memorized to be able to be played. I recall my memory failing at a first recital, some 65 years ago--so, I improvised on chop sticks, then ran off the stage. Perhaps, I do agree. --the improvisation got me through, although the memory failure was traumatic.
First I want to say, I discovered your discussions as a result of the pandemics and I have thoroughly enjoyed them. I particularly enjoy this topic of memory/improv. I think you raise some great points but I want to bring some possible "why" issues to the discussion. Without saying, it is easier to tell if a performer has a memory slip or two than it is to tell if a performer played a good and/or appropriate improvisation. (Excuse me if I start sounding like a teacher. Blame it on over 30 years of public school teaching, though trained to be a classical pianist. I learned to improvise as a result of being a church musician for over 50 years.) Improvisation takes an understanding of style through knowledge of "the rules" and a lot, lot, lot of listening and experimentation. Memorization, on the other hand, is a more of a "did happen or didn't happen" issue. It goes without saying that the latter is easier to assess; the former is complex and could be highly subjective on many levels. Education, whether in a school or through music lessons, is really designed to teach and focus on those things that are easy to assess, judge or grade (whether formally or informally). Can you imagine three judges at a major piano competition agreeing on an improvised performance (let alone a music faculty for a jury)? (Hilarious!!!) So we teach the stuff that when judged, we can find some common ground: I hesitate to say "low-hanging fruit". Maybe we could learn something from our organists friends who have had a tradition of learning to improvise. While in undergrad school I had daily Sightsinging Class with an organist who improvised as we sang melodies that switched clefs as we proceeded. He'd just casually noodle along in an appropriate style while at the same time listening to our class struggle with fixed -DO. He was an awesome musician and person.
"Education, whether in a school or through music lessons, is really designed to teach and focus on those things that are easy to assess, judge or grade (whether formally or informally)."-- it may be almost too hard to do otherwise, and yet to a large extent, it seems like the difficulties that are not cut-and-dried multiple-choice are the ones that NEED to be developed; we need brilliant tutors rather than education, perhaps!
The most brilliant improvised save in classical music I have ever seen is Hamelin in this Schubert Sonata: czcams.com/video/dHKY2E7M2wA/video.html He forgets the recapitulations has a modulation ( starts at 1:11:14), notices it and beautifully, almost unnoticably to people who don't know the work, changes into the right key at 1:11:31. Of course Hamelin is also a composer/improviser himself. If students really question the worth of it, show them this clip.
Here is a description of another improvised save by the brilliant, troubled Geoffrey Tozer. ianmunro.wordpress.com/2009/08/24/vale-geoffrey-tozer/#comment-52
I agree that it is important and also fun to improvise, I do that a lot with great pleasure. However, I am not limiting myself to a certain style, I simply play whatever comes to my mind and let my implicit knowledge of how music works take control. I couldn't say that I consciously plan what to play next. On the memorisation part, I personally think that the process of memorising itself is very much about analysing and understanding music, not so much about blindly repeating it. I find this way of learning much more interesting, reliable and lasting.
"BuT mEmOriZaTIon iS mORe pRofeSsIoNaL!" - someone, probably As someone who is blessed with two wonderful instructors (piano, and pipe organ) who can both improvise like there's no tomorrow, I highly agree with your statements. However, I doubt you'll get any hate comments, to be honest. Edit: I scanned the comments section, and all of the discussion seems to be polite, and I haven't seen any brutish comments that I would consider hateful. Surprising, considering it's the internet. Also, what advice do you have on practicing octaves?
I just play for fun and I'm not very good but I'm sure glad you said that. I've been told I should memorize and I find it so difficult and time consuming. I'd so much rather play around and improvise. Memorizing obviously has it's place but it is boring!!!
another piece of irony is that any of the concert pieces performed today, was written by someone who improvised all their lives. Further, it is strange that someone is able to play Chopin but not able to write or improvise a solid arrangement of Happy Birthday at a friend's party. I don't think Chopin or any of the greats would be pleased by such a lop-sided musical knowledge. Sure, classical music is the hardest music to perform, but still, the irony stands.
I'm fascinated by this conversation in which I rarely find, thank you. Classical at times became too disciplined for me so I dived into the improvisation pool young. Yes, it seems to help me keep up with sight reading or finished in my personal "I must Play" classical pieces I in turn flare into about everything I play. Thanks again for continued inspiration.
I agree with you 100%. We were originally taught that playing by hear was bad, and that only knowing how to read music was important. This was in an all boys band in Denver, Colorado. If I could live my life over, I would work on Bach and Chopin in lieu of endless scale and exercise practice. Take a look at the Jesus Molina videos on youtube. He has one where he outlines how he practices. He starts out with a small improvised phase or chord progression that he than plays in all keys. There was a very fine sight reader at the University of Colorado when I was there. I asked her how she learned to read so well, and she said she learned how to read, because she never practiced for her piano lessons. The top in demand classical pianists in Honolulu are people who can sight read very well and very easily.
Totally agree, when I started learning more towards jazz and improvisation I realized how mistaken I was with learning piano. There´s no point on knowing to play a Chopin´s etude when you can´t play or improvise anything that comes from your heart. Also you don´t need to know harmony or anything, just see the notes on the paper and repeat them until you get them in your mind, such a waste of time. And when you end up knowing a piece, in a few months you forgot most of it, whats the point on memorization?
Absolutely correct! I have never understood why I didn't get to learn music "I liked" as opposed to music that "was imposed upon me". Piano lessons are utterly boring, as is practicing, and I can testify to that with 54 years of having done it and 20 years of having taught plus a few years spent in composing. It should be utterly innate to be able to improvise at the piano. Musical and technical concepts should be taught, not from the page, but from TRUE KNOWLEDGE of what music is and how to make it happen. Something as simple as teaching what chords are and how to make chord progressions. Patterning on the piano. Etc, etc. It is wonderful to be able to read and play from a music book much as one would read a story book out loud but recognize that THAT is what it IS. It is NOT performance and it is NOT expressing ONESELF. Enough from me! 😀
I totally agree! I am a "rock and roll guitarist" as you say who is now learning classical piano. I've definitely played a V chord in a Haydn piece with a slightly incorrect voicing because I forgot what he wrote but remembered it was chord V! Does that happen a lot or do classical players always play exactly the notes that are on the page?
so that is why i can memorized very easily the Chopin Revolutionary, the Ocean etude and Rach C# Prelude came so easily because i had to work harder to play them. as a amateur i was always amazed that i could memorize those pieces and others were so much more difficult to memorize .
I once worshiped at the altar of standard virtuoso pianism - technique Uber alles, the 19th century repertory is Piano Scripture, imagining vast interpretive differences in performances of the same work. Now I see how limiting this idea of what music is. Now I much prefer a technically coarser performance by a real musician such as yourself versus the overly refined MIDI performance by a technical machine who may be able to exceed your scale velocities but couldn’t play (or identify) a I-IV-V-I progression to save his life.
In other words, the way to learn music is to focus on theory and playing by ear before learning to read. In the beginning we don't have much experience in music. We start with a book and learn notations and get very good at regurgitating notes on a page. Kids in Suzuki music supposedly start by learning pieces by ear. They are simply taught to reproduce pieces that were written by music geniuses who already perfected them. Students are not encouraged to " improve" the pieces by great composers such as Brahms, Beethoven or Schubert or alter the original blueprint. A technical piece we'd spend weeks learning the notes and the best fingerings. It's not easy to create new content along the way. A fugue including ones by Bach you have 3 or more parts interacting to create a good sound. They get complicated to the point it's hard to improvise on the spot and make a piece work (at least for most people).
Memorization is essential if you want to be a concert pianist/instrumentalists. Improvisation is definitely an asset for professional musicians. Ideally ability to do both will make an accomplished musician.
Great video. At what stage would you recommend getting a book on improvisation? I have been practicing for a year and a half learning from method books. Improvisation is not part of my practice. So, I am curious to know your take on this please.
My mother studied art at Hunter College in New York in the 1940's. She painted or sketched every day of her life, not to earn money but because it was her joy. So for some people money or fame does not matter, but rather that art is for art's sake alone.
I've just learned how to read more fluently, but I've always had improvisation and counterpoint in my head. I tell anyone who wants to improvise that if they are reading something and make a mistake that they like, they should improvise because the music is printed.
As an amateur pianist, I`ve recently started considering improvisation after living with another musician who used a synthesizer and improvised EVERY time, as opposed to me, who played from memory EVERY time. BTW, I have an interpretation of Beethoven`s 20th sonata in my channel, if you could watch and criticize me, that`d be great. (I`m recovering from injuries from being self-taugh)
What you call 'ideology' I call, in this context, flashy showing-off. On the other hand, as a beginner, I can't imagine trying to follow a complex score while also playing it (even when I don't look at my hands, which I usually do -- but again I'm a beginner). By the time I've learned a short piece to my satisfaction, I've memorized it, anyway (as you suggest is usual for players). Then again, I'm a songwriter constantly improvising tunes, so that dimension is natural to me.
Hi Dr. Mortensen! I have become an improv planet member and hopefully I'm on my way to becoming a fanatic at improvising. However (thankfully) there are times when we are required to learn pieces by the great composers of the past. I'd like to ask of you how would you go on about breaking down a composition so that you can learn it and memorize it for the conventional requirements of the academia and all the while doing so, learn from it so that you can use it in your improvisational journey and apply it to your own liking? Would you recommend transposing? Are there any concrete tips that you might have so that I can take this ready made beautiful abstract thing of music, compress it and put it in my pocket?
He has a lot of other videos on that, actually. He has a few videos on the types of memorization (harmonic, motor, etc.). Also, check out 10 things pianists should do every day and 10 things pianists should do (in general, not every day). Fantastic resources.
I’m not 15 or 18-closer to 70 in fact-but I am young at the piano, early intermediate level. Say I want to learn a Bach Invention. How would Dr. Mortensen have me approach the piece with an emphasis on improvisation rather than memorization?
I can't speak for Dr. Mortensen, but as for one playing Bach for 65+ years (I am 72 now), the Baroque is THE era of improvisation. I would learn the various ornaments that were used. and how, when, and where they were allowed and why. Then, get a clean edition (urtext) of Bach and apply your basket of ornaments to what you are learning.
When i am learning Bach i look at all the chord changes and improvise around each chord change even just simple chords using inversions can work well to avoid jumping around the keyboard too much
imagination in music could be thought of as key to improvisation as much as rubato touch etc as they are omitted from the score , playing with heart or imagination being in the zone in the moment with music is something that the score seperates us from imo as does memory thats not completely subconscious, i cant read music past grade 1 and enjoy playing chopin etude 10 1 musically not full tempo yet but has taught me alot and nocturnes although playing a hundred times just to keep them under my fingers memory wise its difficult after learning many pieces to keep them in memory but the real struggleand time needed to relearn them keeps me going by playing what I know continuously and exploring technique and imagination playing from heart and feel is rewarding with great progress. the longer i stay with the sheet and use it as a rough guide the more choppy it becomes but this is as close as i come to learning to read.. eventually i have to bite the bullet and can see the enjoyment of being proficient.. i greatky miss the ability to improvise like guitar blues solo although i tried on piano i gave up fast its just not the same .. seems to be incredibly unintuitive instrument in comparison although my father does nothing but improvise piano its beyond my comprehension at this time as much as virtuosity or his need for it is to him .
Memorizing repertoire never made sense to me. I turned me off to music performance decades ago. The current interest in classical improvisation intrigues me, jazz players do it all the time.
Organists rarely memorize. Virtually every organ is different, the stops are different, the acoustics of the concert hall or church are different, and the placement of the pipes is different. The notes never change, but on "this" instrument there might be 10 pistons and on "that" instrument there might be 20. A pencil with a good eraser is probably equally important or more important than the music score for organists.
I hope someday that I can play the adagio of Beethoven's Piano Concerto No. 5 from memory. Not because that would put bread on the table, but simply because I like it so much (as is).
Certainly improvisation improves your understanding and facility on the keyboard and I’m surprised at how poorly highly accomplished classical pianists are at improvisation in almost any capacity! BUT IS IT REALLY SO MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE TO MEMORISATION? In many ways both help each other.
Hello love your videos. I don’t know if this is the place for requests (?) but I’d love to have your thoughts on the topic of what one thinks when one is playing... or what goes through one’S mind, or what one should be thinking even... For example, people talk about imagery, colours, or harmonic structure, or physical movements, or emotions or just sound ....or just the notes or reference points at the start of sections...or I’ve also heard “just feel the music and play”...or it could be technique (think this or that to stay loose, or breathe , or pace this section...) For me, throughout my piano years (from starting age 5-7 throughout junior levels and performances and throughout (elite) music school) I’m still unclear actually. I find when I’m learning a piece I think more immediate practicality type stuff, but when performing (it’s been a long while now!) I don’t think I can recall what I might have been thinking while actually performing. I guess a factor would have been how prepared I was for a particular stage performance... ie maybe for less secure pieces might think more at times of the actual notes, for more ‘solid’ repertoire probably was able to think in “broader brushes”... But thinking about it, I’m not sure what I should be thinking tbh (😱) I was watching a documentary the other day which featured a young prodigy (playing the Chopin Fantaisie-Impromptu) and she was describing a story that she had in mind as she played through ... “this is a princess in a castle and now the prince comes and the there’s danger etc etc “ and I thought geeZ, if I had such a vivid film reel going while I was playing I might just switch off and watch that in my mind instead 😂 That said in analysis of pieces people will talk about here’s a storm , and here it’s like it’s fading away etc which is all helpful certainly to get a feel or a vibe of lines and dynamics etc to play a section... but then I find in performance I don’t think I’m thinking about that...(?) But maybe I’m too busy trying to avoid hyperventilating 🤪😫 So yeah sorry long waffly comment but I’m really hoping you might do something on this subject. 🙏🤞🙏🤞
Thank you for this. As a beginning (5 years) player I've found memorising satisfying, in that muscle memory helps you play some nice sounding tunes, but a little pointless in that that's all I can do. Does anyone have any pointers on how to begin improvisation?
I'm more like an amateur, but I do like to improvise at the piano once I finish my session. You can start from the functional chords I-IV-V and playing above them whatever that comes to your mind. Then, you just add some inversions more chords and so on. That helps me to understand better a sheet of music because I sort of identify the chords I'm playing so that if I get stuck, I go into a loop or something till I find the idea again.
Would you agree that, at least for solo piano music, a recorded improvisation is as much an artistic end product as a written composition ? It seems to me that recent advances in relatively cheap, high quality digital home recorders have led to a fundamental intensification of improvisation as an actual creative medium with recordings being the finished works of art. Yet there still persists the widespread conviction, an injuriously false one in my opinion, that improvisation is a sort of poor man's written composition, the merit of which depends on how closely the results resemble written idioms of the past. You were discussing the colossal amount of time spent memorising by performers, but surely it cannot approach the horrendous drain of hours making a written approximation to a spontaneous piano creation. I used to do it but the greatly increased ease and quality of personal recording have led me to just record thousands of hours, thousands of ideas, treat the recordings themselves as the artistic end products and not bother writing anything out at all. I have been severely criticised for this, branded solipsistic and selfish. What do you think ?
cedarvillemusic Thanks, yes, that is the conclusion I also have arrived at. Pity it took until I was fifty-five to see it but I have gone berserk with improvisation since. I don’t regret my compositions, some of them are all right, but they tend to emulate composers I admire and to that extent are living someone else’s dream. A creator, if he is to say anything worthwhile, has to be himself and no one else, and it is virtually impossible to improvise freely without being in this delightful state. The puzzle is why pianists who acquire the transporting lifelong habit of free but fluent and meaningful improvisation seem to be so rare, and why total freedom of creative volition seems so frightening to otherwise superbly trained and accomplished musical minds. I personally find it very sad that our methods of education are denying people what might be the greatest joy it is possible to experience in music; but I applaud you for trying to do something about it.
"one of the dark secrets of music is that you can memorize long pieces and not understand them at all" This is so true. I for example can play "Comptine d'un autre ete" by Yann Tiersen and I can't read music
![Christopher Hitchens - Free Speech (2006) [HQ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/zDap-K6GmL0/mqdefault.jpg)
It’s insane that improvisation isn’t considered an essential skill. When I learn English as my 2nd language, I am expected to be able to communicate freely my thoughts in English. Learning music is just another language. Learning music without improvisation is like learning English by memorizing Shakespeares.
Ah ! I'm french speaking so I compare it to learning French by memorizing Victor Hugo. I see similarities ;)
Agree 100%. As a working musician, now a pianist/organist, but previously trumpet, I've found that this is really just a culture thing within piano (and not even organ) that memorization is important. I honestly would go further than you and say memorization is NOT important at all pedagogically and that learning on it often leads to strong deficits in reading because memorizing and staring at the keys become training wheels that people never take off to actively work on the spatial awareness and proprioception at the keyboard, nor their ability to read and decode music in real time.
I think you talk about improv, but I think sightreading on its own is the first step barrier, particularly for those from the classical tradition. You make that point at the end that some people push back because their world would change. Most of the push back I find from pianists is that they think sightreading would be impossible so they just don't try. They push back because they suck at reading. If their reading was decent, then they would find memorization of most of the music used for paid work is an EXTRA step, but to many it's the ONLY way for them to prepare.
But when you have dozens of accompaniments that you're juggling simultaneously in the real world, memorization isn't an option.
Now, the small amount of memorization necessary for things like page turns or difficult passages would occur through osmosis. I'm with you that the skills needed for both improv and sightreading will make people better memorizers. If they focused on the basic theory elements, understanding the music, maybe being able to quickly reduce a piece they are sightreading (maybe half faking because they can't grab all the notes)... with those tools in place, the memorization necessary will just happen...without any extra effort.
Memorization is such a black hole of practice time that could be better spent working on reading, theory, ear, improv, comping in styles you're not yet comfortable with... any of a million things that are much more likely to show up in the day-to-day demands of a working musician.
In over a decade of gigging I've never been required to memorize something. There have been times it was convenient or might've made for good stage presence, but never required. Sightreading on the spot in a rehearsal? Yes. Playing a song by ear? Yes. Comping from chords to take a request for a song I literally looked up on Spotify moments before playing it from chords on my phone for a singer? Absolutely.
I really wish the old guard on this would die, but it's largely because academia is so sequestered from actual working musicians. No offense, but most people who trained in the classical way, focusing on big rep and memory either got in to a professor's job while the getting was good and have no experience having to actually play for a living the way most working musicians do, or they changed careers... or they started teaching privately. And how? The same way they were taught with no realization that the focus on memorization and rep is a relative dead end. Then music schools have the ridiculous requirements and keep the tradition of the blind leading the blind alive.
Then it becomes sink or swim for graduates. The ones who happened to have picked up good reading skills, or maybe learned some improv on the side, or those who are just quick to adjust in the real world make it, but they do so often IN SPITE of their formal education, not because of it.
Most of my peers who are doing well were good readers going into college because their private teacher pushed that early on. Some of them have band or choir backgrounds where reading is an every day thing and there's constant exposure to new music unlike many pianists who might only cover a handful of pieces in an entire year and memorize all of it by rote.
I feel that the standard for a piano performance degree should be primarily about collaborative piano first with solo piano second. And I think most stylistic variety is really neceessary.
There was a time when you could be a specialist, but these days working musicians are expected to do it all. It's definitely true in the trumpet world. Once you were either classical or jazz but now since so many can do both, it's just the baseline. I find that I can take a ton of work that my piano peers can't just because I'm able to fill multiple roles that they can't. I feel like going forward that's going to be more and more the case.
More and more young pianists are learning to do it all... not because schools are teaching the, but because they invested in themselves and taught themselves because of stuff they saw on CZcams. As that becomes the baseline, so many classical specialist are going to find themselves driven out of work because of those of us who are simply more flexible.
I'm seeing a similar thing in the theory world where suddenly people are having a wake-up call watching pop/game music theory videos and thinking, "Wait... what's a Cmaj13#11 and why wasn't I taught this in music school that I'm paying so much for!?"
I'm extremely pleased to see you taking some care about what skills are viable and valuable so that your graduates can actually make music a career.
Your comments here are very informative to me, and interesting. Thank you.
Very good comments. My undergrad degree is in Theory, with piano as my instrument. I play at the professional level. was astonished that most of the pianists in a master class for advanced pianists had no idea of the harmony beneath what they were playing. Only myself, the presenter, and a colleague from Kiev conservatory could talk about what was going on in the music. If there is no understanding of what the composer is doing, how can one make music? I know this is off topic but music is so much more than just the notes one learns (memorizes) to play.
How I wished I had learned how to improvise while studying music ( Piano Performance in the mid-80s) at University. I agree wholeheartedly with what you are saying.... it was so pointless to learn 4-5 pieces a year, and have the added stress of having to memorize them.... and for what?? All I can say is that it starts with the curriculum!! Why are those, who are in charge of devising the curriculum not taking the importance of learning how to improvise into account? Jazz majors are taught to improvise , as well as early music students. Even something as so important as sight reading, was not really taught... and back in the day, when I studied music, sight reading exam was a pass/fail. You pretty much had to learn this on your own.... sink or swim!! Hate to say it, but studying music at higher level really took the joy out of wanting to learn more about it! Once I graduated, I literally had closed the lid to my piano for about 5 years!! My love and earnestness to want to play only came back many years later... how awful is that?? Nowadays, in my mid 50s music is my absolute passion... I live, eat, breath music. All I want to do is to play and study music all the time!! Thanks Dr. John, for this great video, and thank you for having the courage to say things that are otherwise usually kept quiet.
Thanks for your story, I had the same experience! One upside of this pandemic is that I am going back to play/practice my music on my piano with all the time staying at home!!
By the way, most of the great musicians or composers from the past where Known to be astounding improvisers: Bach, Haendel, mozart, chopin, liszt, etc...
In particular chopin/liszt were famous for theirs improvisations in the Paris "salons".
Hello Philippe. In English we write the surname as Handel (no umlaut, nor E to substitute for it) because Georg Friederich Händel, after his relocation to Britain, anglicised (or anglicized: both spellings are correct) his name to George Frederick/ Frideric Handel, and the surname is thus typically pronounced like the hardware that opens a door. Apologies if you already know this: but perhaps others don't.
Yes, the investment of time followed by an inevitable memory slip anyway is what I came to dread. I realised my hard won pieces were so easily forgotten and my reading skill so lowly that even resurrecting the piece was more brain ache. Glad to be breaking the cycle. There’s so much more happiness, freedom and energy in music than motor-memorising bar by bar ever yielded
speaking as a full time professional performance musician of over 30 years - I totally agree that improvisation is "more important than memorisation" (although improvisation obviously requires a great deal of memorisation in itself ...) - great series of videos 🎹❤️
Thanks for taking the "risk" of putting out this statement as a professional teacher. I completely agree. Throughout my career I have often referred to this, as a classical pianist and violist, "the classical handicap". Over the years I have developed SOME improvisational skills at the keyboard, which is to say as a church organist and music director I have become fairly comfortable at improvising ornamentation, cadencial interludes and the occasional obbligato line over written music... but to sit and need to vamp in a pit orchestra for a play, or hanging out with some jazz buddies over a 12 bar blues (I would not risk anything more elaborate) I sound like one of my grade three piano students. Which brings me to my question/statement (?) at 35, with a fairly successful teaching and performing career in a smaller community I must admit I am either too scared or too prideful to seek a jazz/improvisational piano teacher and say "hey, let's start from square one"...almost wanna use an alias, wear a wig and glass and be sure not to mention I have a performance degree... any advice?
We would worry less what others thought of us if we realized how seldom they thought of us at all.
Very good book on Jazz piano by Phil DeGreg(€30 or so). It goes step by step, the hip voicings, goes from beginning to profit level. I would also recommend CZcams Kent Hewitt:inspiring, humorous, and he has a very excellent book(my next purchase). Ron Drotos CZcams:KeyboardImprov goes step by step through the Real Book. Hope that opens a few doors gently. And don't forget Aimee Nolte(CZcams).All these folks have gentle,humorous, effective and encouraging teaching styles. Good luck with your creative journey. 🌹🌹🌹
Beginning to PROFI LEVEL😳😁
I see more and more pianists playing from the score nowadays, even for standard solo rep! The few insane people memorizing Stockhausen and complete Ligeti Etudes are making life harder for all of us though.
Really! I haven’t seen any so far! This is encouraging as it takes me a very long time to memorize my music!!😀
And loving the fact that the ‘next up’ video was ‘Memorising Music: the four memories’!!!! Thanks John.
I'm 67 years old now and started playing piano just last year and although very much
a beginner, I find that your presentations not only inform but also calms my soul during this
pandemic as well.
Working on "Piano Adventures" by Nancy & Randall Faber at the 3A-3B level books.
I love your analogy to cooking, learning how to work with food to be a chef who can prepare a meal from scratch rather than simply a food server. Another detriment of all this memorization is that it can detract from learning to sight read well. For me, memorizing always came easy, but sightreading did not, and I had little incentive to improve it. Surprisingly, once I started to practice partimento, my sightreading actually improved, and I think it was because I had developed better ear/hand coordination.
I really agree with you! I started learning piano when I was 6, I liked practising, I was quite good at sight reading, I went a music school. But the tragedy was my memory. I wasn't so good, and no teacher, no one, taught me how I can memorise effectively. Nothing! The music theory was so so separated thing, I wasn't interested, I didn't have a clue how it can be tied with what I was trying to memorise. Playing in public was a death sentence. And I realised that after 15 years of intense practise, I was absolutely nothing without a sheet music (of something I can play) in front of me!! With a feeling of total failure, I didn't play piano for a long long time. But somehow it came back into my life and I had to start playing, and sometimes, in very small way, I had to "improvise"!! That was a big step out of my comfort zone but it was the only way I could go through my work. So I started to look for some material (I found you at this point), and try to change myself. I haven't progressed much, but some reward is already there! I can more easily memorise pieces and I get a feeling of "it will be somehow all right!" when I play. I feel I am living in a different world...and wish I was like this when I was a teen!
You have no idea how validating this video was for me. Memorization certainly has it's place, but I'll never forget the feelings of failure & guilt after totally blanking out at a competition. The scenario continues to play through my mind, even decades later. When you are young, you don't know always what to do in regard to competition 'protocol'. (At least I wasn't...not for this particular one). But I really wish I would have played WITH my music for the judges, knowing I would be disqualified, for me...myself. Thank you for this video!
I wish this guy could be my private piano teacher !!! This guy has a very insightful approach to this music.
I don't think he would want to have a student on meth
I remember seeing a major concert pianist getting lost in a Schubert sonata, and (as she confessed later to the audience) - improvising Schubert until she remembered which one she was in and how to escape the movement.
Honestly I think that 80% of the improvisation skills you're mentioning pretty much boil down to harmonic awareness. Rock guitar players will never halt all of a sudden because they know that the pentatonic scale they're basing their materials off of works on the whole chord progression. On a somewhat similar note, yet a very different level, a great jazz player will never stop because they know what kinds of chords are supposed to happen at what moment. Worst case scenario, they'd end up arpeggiating substitute chords for the actual progression, which would work just the same.
On the other hand, Im getting the idea that sometimes classical pianists focus on melodies, groupings, fingerings and single notes more than chords, meaning that if they forget a note, they have no clue of what notes could possibly work as a substitution for the very note that they can't remember.
So yeah, what I'm mainly taking away from this precious lesson is "know your chords"
Rick Stopa started studying jazz harmony and piano voicings as a piano bar player to do standards, and now going back to debussy is a cinch harmonically. Harmonic awareness is what sets a sight reader apart.
Very good point, and if I could add rhythmic knowledge also can't be underestimated! This is the number one thing with jazz students, specifically, that hangs them up (maybe tied with harmony).
BTW, your (and others on here) introduction to partimento has made me a much more aware player. It's of course on the line between "realization" and improvisation, but as one who has played only from scores (and laboriously by heart) it's like opening a window onto music. I wish I could go back and start over (now 70 and just "getting it"). Thanks.
You are right thank you that l can make an informed choice.
Improvisation is an unexplored track l want to explore. Thank you for your words of wisdom.
Much appreciated
Blessings
Julianna 🎶
I completely agree with you, Cedar!!! I was classically trained but stopped playing for 20 years. Then went back just to do technical training on the piano. Finally, I was taught how chords work! And that was my Eureka!!!When finally a New World was opened to me for the 1st time!!! Thanks soooo much!!! 👏👏👏
Admittedly I'm commenting while only having read the video description. I think that improvisation is more important than memorization, especially for performance, because one might "forget" memorized music or otherwise not have it completely prepared, but one can ALWAYS make something up in an improvised context.
As for myself, I could spend hours and hours getting a several-minute-long composition memorized and prepared, or I could spend hours and hours directly creating new music and honing the music which naturally flows from MY hands. To me, improvisation is just a more efficient use of my time, because my LIFE is the only time I have. And to paraphrase from the Bhagavad Gita: it is better to fulfill one's own duties imperfectly than to fulfill another's duties perfectly. in other words, it's better to imperfectly be yourself than to perfectly be somebody else!!!
Looking forward to this series!
as a young musician, nothing makes me go wilder than hearing wise people saying what they wish they knew when they were younger. imagine if they knew it all along, what would they have acomplished!!
@@andredelacerdasantos4439 True. However not having a teacher for 20-odd years probably set me back about... oh, 20 years, so there is a flip-side to that !
@@andredelacerdasantos4439 very observant. I think, why at age 6 did no one tell me to play thumb over vs thumb under; why no teaching of harmonic structure; why no teaching of before i play a note have in mind what i want it to sound like? So many, if only... In some places the best teachers are assigned to the young students.
In the USA it often the other way.
Absolutely spot on and blindingly obvious to a 'contemporary' musician. I attended a college at which both classical and "light music" students shared a building. The ability to improvise was an essential element for the jazzers, but, in my humble opinion the straight players were far less developed or mature by graduation. Memorisation has little to do with a conscious understanding of a piece. It's a motor function task. Analysis was considered separate from performance skills by the straight players, and it showed in their general musicianship and employability after college. Impro was once important to the serious musician. Shame it's considered as something other nowadays.
Great comment on the trauma of forgetting the next part of a piece during a recital. Too many adult students have told me they quit at a young age because of this. For any teachers watching the video, please consider John's message so I don't end up with your student in 20 years.
interesting, the story at 7:00. My experience was a strange opposite. At the time I was a pop and rock guitarist who wanted to study piano. I THOUGHT I could read music, and I fooled some people at an audition for getting into a piano class, by playing the only thing I ever learned at the piano by myself (Mozart's Turkish Rondo, with the ending masterfully and convincingly always left out, because if I played it I would get into serious trouble and everything would fall apart.). Passed the audition and started to take the piano lessons right from grade 7-8 (I had REALLY fooled the audition people), and the teacher, a concert pianist, noticed that I could memorize really well, but that I was a bad reader, and that 'to be an excellent memorizer is great, but if I had to choose between being a great memorizer and a great sight-reader, I would unhesitatingly be the latter. Alwasy.'. From that day I demoted myself to piano grade 1, I started working at my sight reading (learning from scratch, really, and it was a gruesome experience. I kid you not, getting punched while sparring in martial arts was EASIER than learning sight reading from scratch). And I NEVER memorized ANYTHING again at the piano. So it is strange that the concert pianist you mentioned was sight reading Ravel and got laughed at. In my experience sight reading is a super power. Obviously I am not saying anything new to you. Thank you so much for the videos and your top notch expertise!
I improvise a lot in both the classical and jazz genres. It does greatly improve my skills at the piano.
If I could thumbs this up 1000 times I would
What you are saying is good improvisation is better than bad memorization. It's not really an argument. The flip side is equally valid. Good/correct memorization is better than bad/incorrect improvisation. Anything and everything correct is better/more useful than anything and everything incorrect.
Properly cultivating both skills results in an incredible amount of (two-way) overlap. Therefore, properly cultivating either skill inevitably nutures the other. They are not separate entities. Mozart's mastery in both areas were not separate skills.
Thank you from the bottom of my heart! I’ve been a pianist for nearly two decades and I’ve had five consistent piano instructors and two master classes, and now I have my own little students... and I love Rachmaninov’s Church Music, although I have never attempted his famous Prelude, but I know what it sounds like. If you take a look at Daniel Thrasher on CZcams, he’s basically saying everything you already said except for a younger audience. And he’s hilarious, like Victor Borge was. My top YT pianists are K. Landry, K. Mosca, and J. May. Everyone else I don’t bother with. I always liked the 5 Browns but they’re all doing their own things now. I once had the incredible honor of performing in the Warsaw airport for about an hour or two, after being deprived of touching a piano for a solid month, and I had no music with me, and I did not attempt any Chopin because I did not want to offend any one there. But I had a great time. Hope I can visit again.
True: Pathetic weekend warriors dads are decent improvisers! I wish I could do the same on piano! That’s why I just bought your book on improvisation and it awesome! I knew you through Jeremy Siskind channel, you two are the best teachers on the internet!
Wonderful video as ever for which many thanks. I agree with you absolutely. One tiny thought ...there is no expectation no memorise pieces for ABRSM exams.
Take care. Keep 'em coming.
In my opinion, as piano music is harder to read than other instruments (such as the melodic ones), the piano student is somehow forced to memorize music once he or she is not at the reading level even of easy pieces, so that becomes an habit. Also, as playing notes on the piano is super easy compared to other instruments, it is quite tempting trying to play pieces above your reading level once you can memorize every single bar by repeating it
continuously.
This way, the necessary time to learn proper reading along with playing the piano does not exist, and that becomes the "normal" throughout the life.
At some point the student will be struggling between reading and/or memorizing, this way the idea of improvisation is not even considered.
Maybe this is a problem that should be handled on the very beginning of the student's life, specially on classical piano students. Just a thought.
So True..I think understanding the harmonic/formal intent of the composer by the performer.. will greatly enhance performance of a piece. I like what you said about piano graduates ..who tend to improvise and read for a living more than memorizing .. unless for themselves..
Thanks a lot!
I'm gonna put improvising in my daily practice sessions now.
And I strive to be a classical musician
Still I think you must be able to play all kinds of music to truly understand your own better.
Again! Thank you for your words 🙏👍👏
Improv and reading skills to me are number 1, whatever the style and instrument. It's like learning to read and write any language. I personally still have a problem with modulating on the piano from any key to any key. Once I get this down, improv will be on it's way big time. As for reading, 1 sheet a day keeps the shame away.
Check Max Reger book (Modulation) and practice his progressions transposing in all keys (all first tonal regions are written in C Maj or a min). He wrote all the book as little 4 voices chord passages, as choral music.
I love your tips and advice. Absolutely agree with every word you said! I wish I had a teacher like you :)
I am not a trained or 'accomplished' pianist - I play and practice only for my own benefit, but I have learned one solid lesson over the years and that is, your memory will betray you. I need to learn how to improvise, but I don't know where to start.
I`d suggest playing with someone else
Play along with your favourite records, keep it really simple at first, basic blues music would be a good start
Get to know the chords and where they change as a starting point and then play within that chord but taking note of the key signature of the piece.
okay. interesting. Heresy? maybe not, but many will believe so. In composition class, we had to write in the style of such-n-such composer. So, why not improvise in the style? & certainly if there is a flub, being able to improvise until memory recovers will be better than a fall apart? Or, should you stop and begin again at a safety point? I wish my memory skills were better. That comes very hard for me; but sight-reading is a breeze, until the passage is so difficult it must be memorized to be able to be played. I recall my memory failing at a first recital, some 65 years ago--so, I improvised on chop sticks, then ran off the stage. Perhaps, I do agree. --the improvisation got me through, although the memory failure was traumatic.
Thanks for another very informative, thought-provoking video.
First I want to say, I discovered your discussions as a result of the pandemics and I have thoroughly enjoyed them. I particularly enjoy this topic of memory/improv. I think you raise some great points but I want to bring some possible "why" issues to the discussion. Without saying, it is easier to tell if a performer has a memory slip or two than it is to tell if a performer played a good and/or appropriate improvisation. (Excuse me if I start sounding like a teacher. Blame it on over 30 years of public school teaching, though trained to be a classical pianist. I learned to improvise as a result of being a church musician for over 50 years.) Improvisation takes an understanding of style through knowledge of "the rules" and a lot, lot, lot of listening and experimentation. Memorization, on the other hand, is a more of a "did happen or didn't happen" issue. It goes without saying that the latter is easier to assess; the former is complex and could be highly subjective on many levels. Education, whether in a school or through music lessons, is really designed to teach and focus on those things that are easy to assess, judge or grade (whether formally or informally). Can you imagine three judges at a major piano competition agreeing on an improvised performance (let alone a music faculty for a jury)? (Hilarious!!!) So we teach the stuff that when judged, we can find some common ground: I hesitate to say "low-hanging fruit". Maybe we could learn something from our organists friends who have had a tradition of learning to improvise. While in undergrad school I had daily Sightsinging Class with an organist who improvised as we sang melodies that switched clefs as we proceeded. He'd just casually noodle along in an appropriate style while at the same time listening to our class struggle with fixed -DO. He was an awesome musician and person.
"Education, whether in a school or through music lessons, is really designed to teach and focus on those things that are easy to assess, judge or grade (whether formally or informally)."-- it may be almost too hard to do otherwise, and yet to a large extent, it seems like the difficulties that are not cut-and-dried multiple-choice are the ones that NEED to be developed; we need brilliant tutors rather than education, perhaps!
The most brilliant improvised save in classical music I have ever seen is Hamelin in this Schubert Sonata: czcams.com/video/dHKY2E7M2wA/video.html
He forgets the recapitulations has a modulation ( starts at 1:11:14), notices it and beautifully, almost unnoticably to people who don't know the work, changes into the right key at 1:11:31. Of course Hamelin is also a composer/improviser himself. If students really question the worth of it, show them this clip.
Wow, I certainly didn`t notice!
Here is a description of another improvised save by the brilliant, troubled Geoffrey Tozer.
ianmunro.wordpress.com/2009/08/24/vale-geoffrey-tozer/#comment-52
I agree that it is important and also fun to improvise, I do that a lot with great pleasure. However, I am not limiting myself to a certain style, I simply play whatever comes to my mind and let my implicit knowledge of how music works take control. I couldn't say that I consciously plan what to play next.
On the memorisation part, I personally think that the process of memorising itself is very much about analysing and understanding music, not so much about blindly repeating it. I find this way of learning much more interesting, reliable and lasting.
"BuT mEmOriZaTIon iS mORe pRofeSsIoNaL!"
- someone, probably
As someone who is blessed with two wonderful instructors (piano, and pipe organ) who can both improvise like there's no tomorrow, I highly agree with your statements.
However, I doubt you'll get any hate comments, to be honest.
Edit: I scanned the comments section, and all of the discussion seems to be polite, and I haven't seen any brutish comments that I would consider hateful. Surprising, considering it's the internet.
Also, what advice do you have on practicing octaves?
I just play for fun and I'm not very good but I'm sure glad you said that. I've been told I should memorize and I find it so difficult and time consuming. I'd so much rather play around and improvise. Memorizing obviously has it's place but it is boring!!!
Dear Dr,. You are great! ♪♫
another piece of irony is that any of the concert pieces performed today, was written by someone who improvised all their lives. Further, it is strange that someone is able to play Chopin but not able to write or improvise a solid arrangement of Happy Birthday at a friend's party. I don't think Chopin or any of the greats would be pleased by such a lop-sided musical knowledge. Sure, classical music is the hardest music to perform, but still, the irony stands.
I'm fascinated by this conversation in which I rarely find, thank you. Classical at times became too disciplined for me so I dived into the improvisation pool young. Yes, it seems to help me keep up with sight reading or finished in my personal "I must Play" classical pieces I in turn flare into about everything I play. Thanks again for continued inspiration.
I agree with you 100%. We were originally taught that playing by hear was bad, and that only knowing how to read music was important. This was in an all boys band in Denver, Colorado. If I could live my life over, I would work on Bach and Chopin in lieu of endless scale and exercise practice. Take a look at the Jesus Molina videos on youtube. He has one where he outlines how he practices. He starts out with a small improvised phase or chord progression that he than plays in all keys. There was a very fine sight reader at the University of Colorado when I was there. I asked her how she learned to read so well, and she said she learned how to read, because she never practiced for her piano lessons. The top in demand classical pianists in Honolulu are people who can sight read very well and very easily.
Totally agree, when I started learning more towards jazz and improvisation I realized how mistaken I was with learning piano. There´s no point on knowing to play a Chopin´s etude when you can´t play or improvise anything that comes from your heart. Also you don´t need to know harmony or anything, just see the notes on the paper and repeat them until you get them in your mind, such a waste of time.
And when you end up knowing a piece, in a few months you forgot most of it, whats the point on memorization?
I`ve recently learned the circle of fifths on the piano after 8 years of piano practice! all I`ve ever done was play pieces by memory...
Absolutely correct! I have never understood why I didn't get to learn music "I liked" as opposed to music that "was imposed upon me". Piano lessons are utterly boring, as is practicing, and I can testify to that with 54 years of having done it and 20 years of having taught plus a few years spent in composing. It should be utterly innate to be able to improvise at the piano. Musical and technical concepts should be taught, not from the page, but from TRUE KNOWLEDGE of what music is and how to make it happen. Something as simple as teaching what chords are and how to make chord progressions. Patterning on the piano. Etc, etc. It is wonderful to be able to read and play from a music book much as one would read a story book out loud but recognize that THAT is what it IS. It is NOT performance and it is NOT expressing ONESELF. Enough from me! 😀
Totally agree. Ear training obviously helps improvising too.
I totally agree! I am a "rock and roll guitarist" as you say who is now learning classical piano. I've definitely played a V chord in a Haydn piece with a slightly incorrect voicing because I forgot what he wrote but remembered it was chord V! Does that happen a lot or do classical players always play exactly the notes that are on the page?
so that is why i can memorized very easily the Chopin Revolutionary, the Ocean etude and Rach C# Prelude came so easily because i had to work harder to play them. as a amateur i was always amazed that i could memorize those pieces and others were so much more difficult to memorize .
Fantastic statement.
Loving this!
I once worshiped at the altar of standard virtuoso pianism - technique Uber alles, the 19th century repertory is Piano Scripture, imagining vast interpretive differences in performances of the same work. Now I see how limiting this idea of what music is. Now I much prefer a technically coarser performance by a real musician such as yourself versus the overly refined MIDI performance by a technical machine who may be able to exceed your scale velocities but couldn’t play (or identify) a I-IV-V-I progression to save his life.
In other words, the way to learn music is to focus on theory and playing by ear before learning to read.
In the beginning we don't have much experience in music. We start with a book and learn notations and get very good at regurgitating notes on a page. Kids in Suzuki music supposedly start by learning pieces by ear. They are simply taught to reproduce pieces that were written by music geniuses who already perfected them. Students are not encouraged to " improve" the pieces by great composers such as Brahms, Beethoven or Schubert or alter the original blueprint.
A technical piece we'd spend weeks learning the notes and the best fingerings. It's not easy to create new content along the way. A fugue including ones by Bach you have 3 or more parts interacting to create a good sound. They get complicated to the point it's hard to improvise on the spot and make a piece work (at least for most people).
I don`t agree
Couldn’t agree more
Yes! memorization is fancy and gets you attention, but not actual music proficiency!
Memorization is essential if you want to be a concert pianist/instrumentalists. Improvisation is definitely an asset for professional musicians. Ideally ability to do both will make an accomplished musician.
Great video. At what stage would you recommend getting a book on improvisation? I have been practicing for a year and a half learning from method books. Improvisation is not part of my practice. So, I am curious to know your take on this please.
My mother studied art at Hunter College in New York in the 1940's.
She painted or sketched every day of her life, not to earn money but because it was her joy.
So for some people money or fame does not matter, but rather that art is for art's sake alone.
I've just learned how to read more fluently, but I've always had improvisation and counterpoint in my head. I tell anyone who wants to improvise that if they are reading something and make a mistake that they like, they should improvise because the music is printed.
Thank you.
As an amateur pianist, I`ve recently started considering improvisation after living with another musician who used a synthesizer and improvised EVERY time, as opposed to me, who played from memory EVERY time. BTW, I have an interpretation of Beethoven`s 20th sonata in my channel, if you could watch and criticize me, that`d be great. (I`m recovering from injuries from being self-taugh)
So true all of it!
What you call 'ideology' I call, in this context, flashy showing-off. On the other hand, as a beginner, I can't imagine trying to follow a complex score while also playing it (even when I don't look at my hands, which I usually do -- but again I'm a beginner). By the time I've learned a short piece to my satisfaction, I've memorized it, anyway (as you suggest is usual for players). Then again, I'm a songwriter constantly improvising tunes, so that dimension is natural to me.
Thanks , very informative
Hi Dr. Mortensen! I have become an improv planet member and hopefully I'm on my way to becoming a fanatic at improvising. However (thankfully) there are times when we are required to learn pieces by the great composers of the past. I'd like to ask of you how would you go on about breaking down a composition so that you can learn it and memorize it for the conventional requirements of the academia and all the while doing so, learn from it so that you can use it in your improvisational journey and apply it to your own liking? Would you recommend transposing? Are there any concrete tips that you might have so that I can take this ready made beautiful abstract thing of music, compress it and put it in my pocket?
He has a lot of other videos on that, actually. He has a few videos on the types of memorization (harmonic, motor, etc.). Also, check out 10 things pianists should do every day and 10 things pianists should do (in general, not every day). Fantastic resources.
I’m not 15 or 18-closer to 70 in fact-but I am young at the piano, early intermediate level. Say I want to learn a Bach Invention. How would Dr. Mortensen have me approach the piece with an emphasis on improvisation rather than memorization?
I can't speak for Dr. Mortensen, but as for one playing Bach for 65+ years (I am 72 now), the Baroque is THE era of improvisation. I would learn the various ornaments that were used. and how, when, and where they were allowed and why. Then, get a clean edition (urtext) of Bach and apply your basket of ornaments to what you are learning.
When i am learning Bach i look at all the chord changes and improvise around each chord change even just simple chords using inversions can work well to avoid jumping around the keyboard too much
imagination in music could be thought of as key to improvisation as much as rubato touch etc as they are omitted from the score , playing with heart or imagination being in the zone in the moment with music is something that the score seperates us from imo as does memory thats not completely subconscious, i cant read music past grade 1 and enjoy playing chopin etude 10 1 musically not full tempo yet but has taught me alot and nocturnes although playing a hundred times just to keep them under my fingers memory wise its difficult after learning many pieces to keep them in memory but the real struggleand time needed to relearn them keeps me going by playing what I know continuously and exploring technique and imagination playing from heart and feel is rewarding with great progress. the longer i stay with the sheet and use it as a rough guide the more choppy it becomes but this is as close as i come to learning to read.. eventually i have to bite the bullet and can see the enjoyment of being proficient.. i greatky miss the ability to improvise like guitar blues solo although i tried on piano i gave up fast its just not the same .. seems to be incredibly unintuitive instrument in comparison although my father does nothing but improvise piano its beyond my comprehension at this time as much as virtuosity or his need for it is to him .
Memorizing repertoire never made sense to me. I turned me off to music performance decades ago. The current interest in classical improvisation intrigues me, jazz players do it all the time.
Organists rarely memorize. Virtually every organ is different, the stops are different, the acoustics of the concert hall or church are different, and the placement of the pipes is different. The notes never change, but on "this" instrument there might be 10 pistons and on "that" instrument there might be 20. A pencil with a good eraser is probably equally important or more important than the music score for organists.
I think you make a lot of sense.
I hope someday that I can play the adagio of Beethoven's Piano Concerto No. 5 from memory.
Not because that would put bread on the table, but simply because I like it so much (as is).
Certainly improvisation improves your understanding and facility on the keyboard and I’m surprised at how poorly highly accomplished classical pianists are at improvisation in almost any capacity! BUT IS IT REALLY SO MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE TO MEMORISATION? In many ways both help each other.
Hello love your videos. I don’t know if this is the place for requests (?) but I’d love to have your thoughts on the topic of what one thinks when one is playing... or what goes through one’S mind, or what one should be thinking even...
For example, people talk about imagery, colours, or harmonic structure, or physical movements, or emotions or just sound ....or just the notes or reference points at the start of sections...or I’ve also heard “just feel the music and play”...or it could be technique (think this or that to stay loose, or breathe , or pace this section...)
For me, throughout my piano years (from starting age 5-7 throughout junior levels and performances and throughout (elite) music school) I’m still unclear actually. I find when I’m learning a piece I think more immediate practicality type stuff, but when performing (it’s been a long while now!) I don’t think I can recall what I might have been thinking while actually performing. I guess a factor would have been how prepared I was for a particular stage performance... ie maybe for less secure pieces might think more at times of the actual notes, for more ‘solid’ repertoire probably was able to think in “broader brushes”... But thinking about it, I’m not sure what I should be thinking tbh (😱) I was watching a documentary the other day which featured a young prodigy (playing the Chopin Fantaisie-Impromptu) and she was describing a story that she had in mind as she played through ... “this is a princess in a castle and now the prince comes and the there’s danger etc etc “ and I thought geeZ, if I had such a vivid film reel going while I was playing I might just switch off and watch that in my mind instead 😂 That said in analysis of pieces people will talk about here’s a storm , and here it’s like it’s fading away etc which is all helpful certainly to get a feel or a vibe of lines and dynamics etc to play a section... but then I find in performance I don’t think I’m thinking about that...(?) But maybe I’m too busy trying to avoid hyperventilating 🤪😫 So yeah sorry long waffly comment but I’m really hoping you might do something on this subject. 🙏🤞🙏🤞
Thank you for this. As a beginning (5 years) player I've found memorising satisfying, in that muscle memory helps you play some nice sounding tunes, but a little pointless in that that's all I can do. Does anyone have any pointers on how to begin improvisation?
I'm more like an amateur, but I do like to improvise at the piano once I finish my session. You can start from the functional chords I-IV-V and playing above them whatever that comes to your mind. Then, you just add some inversions more chords and so on. That helps me to understand better a sheet of music because I sort of identify the chords I'm playing so that if I get stuck, I go into a loop or something till I find the idea again.
Agreed.
True
Your recommendation is great for an adult learner, which I am.
Would you agree that, at least for solo piano music, a recorded improvisation is as much an artistic end product as a written composition ? It seems to me that recent advances in relatively cheap, high quality digital home recorders have led to a fundamental intensification of improvisation as an actual creative medium with recordings being the finished works of art. Yet there still persists the widespread conviction, an injuriously false one in my opinion, that improvisation is a sort of poor man's written composition, the merit of which depends on how closely the results resemble written idioms of the past. You were discussing the colossal amount of time spent memorising by performers, but surely it cannot approach the horrendous drain of hours making a written approximation to a spontaneous piano creation. I used to do it but the greatly increased ease and quality of personal recording have led me to just record thousands of hours, thousands of ideas, treat the recordings themselves as the artistic end products and not bother writing anything out at all. I have been severely criticised for this, branded solipsistic and selfish. What do you think ?
I think that life is short, the world is brutal, and anyone who finds ways to bring joy to self and others is totally crushing it.
cedarvillemusic Thanks, yes, that is the conclusion I also have arrived at. Pity it took until I was fifty-five to see it but I have gone berserk with improvisation since. I don’t regret my compositions, some of them are all right, but they tend to emulate composers I admire and to that extent are living someone else’s dream. A creator, if he is to say anything worthwhile, has to be himself and no one else, and it is virtually impossible to improvise freely without being in this delightful state. The puzzle is why pianists who acquire the transporting lifelong habit of free but fluent and meaningful improvisation seem to be so rare, and why total freedom of creative volition seems so frightening to otherwise superbly trained and accomplished musical minds. I personally find it very sad that our methods of education are denying people what might be the greatest joy it is possible to experience in music; but I applaud you for trying to do something about it.
interesting...
Actually, when you play clarinet you can't even see where your fingers are supposed to be except you use a mirror😂
"one of the dark secrets of music is that you can memorize long pieces and not understand them at all"
This is so true. I for example can play "Comptine d'un autre ete" by Yann Tiersen and I can't read music