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Could Two Modern Destroyers Stop The 1942 IJN Indian Ocean Raid? (Naval Battle 119) | DCS
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- čas přidán 15. 08. 2024
- Today we simulate the first Indian Ocean Raid by the Imperial Japanese Navy First Fleet In 1942. We ask if two modern destroyers could have stopped the IJN fleet from winning the battle. The destroyers use SM-6 missiles to pound the IJN ships and ESSM and close range helicopters to defend from Japanese bombers.
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0:00 Overview & History
3:48 Scenario Details
7:46 Predictions
8:48 Battle
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#GRNavalBattle #DCSNavalBattle #Destroyer #ArleighBurke #PacificWar #IndianOceanRaid #WWII #WorldWar2 #GR #DCSWorld #Aviation #AviationGaming #FlightSimulators #Military #DCS
**SPOILER ALERT** Full Battle Damage Assessment Below For Those Interested:
2 x Carriers Sunk
1 x Cruiser Sunk
13 x Destroyers Sunk
3 x Carriers Damaged
4 x Battleships Damaged
5 x Destroyers Damaged
3 x Cruisers Damaged
201 x A6M Destroyed(including losses on sunken carriers)
TOTAL
16 x Ships Sunk
15 x Ships Damaged
201 x Aircraft Destroyed
64 x Anti-Ship Missiles Fired
128 x SAMs Fired
Do you have WWII-era anti-aircraft destroyers like the USN Kidd class? If you do, you could keep the two Arleigh Burke destroyers and use the old destroyers as a screen of 12 to shoot the A6M5s down. If you don't, you could use multiple modern destroyers to run this again. The need is for any ship in game that is more AA cannon/missiles than ASW/AS as a screen for the ship hunters.
Quality boom boom 😊
Cool!👍
When I saw that you had overestimated the number of ASMs, compounded by the tendency to "bounce the rubble," I knew this was gonna be less than a major triumph. Perhaps have another go with the actual firepower you had anticipated? =0[.]o=
I know you don't celebrate it (I force my Irish in laws to) but happy Thanksgiving to your family Cap. Never a bad day to say thanks to those around you and you have provided me with so much entertainment over the years. Cheers bro.
A really huge problem is you keep using yamato-class battleships in place of regular Japanese battleships
Congo class ships were like 35000 tons and the Yamato was over 70,000 tons. They're not the same thing and there's literally no way to destroy them with anything but the largest missile or an Iowa class battleship
So many lives lost....because the Arleighs decided the best idea was to shoot SM-2/6s at the Yamatos.
I think the Arleigh Burkes would be even more effective with the anti-ship variant of the Tomahawk because of its much larger warhead.
You want LRASM which has taken over that heavyweight role. Same 1,000 lb warhead as Tomahawk, 500nm range, loadable into the Mk-41 "Strike" length missile cell.
@@namyun2743 Ship launched LRASMs are not in service yet, and the RGM-109B Tomahawk Anti-Ship Missile (TASM) entered service in the 80’s.
@@MaxIsStrange1 Ship-launched LRASMs allegedly started service in 2022. TASMs were withdrawn from service in 1994 and converted to Block IV which allegedly has some anti-ship capability, but untested. The newer Block V in development allegedly has better antiship capability than the Block IV, but it remains to be see. Yes, US Navy has been without a heavyweight antiship missile for almost 30 years.
@@namyun2743 I can’t find anything about the VLS-launched LRASM being in service. Could you please give a source for that? As to the Tomahawk vs LRASM thing-in the scenario from this video, it makes no difference which one is used but I thought it would be cool to see an anti-ship Tomahawk in DCS because it’s never been done before and Block V’s extreme range would introduce completely new possibilities for Cap’s scenarios…
Ship based long range ship to ship ordinance has been used for quite some time.
I have a great video idea.
"Can a 055 Destroyer prevent the japanese invasion of China."
I think that would be a very interesting way of showing the difference and improvement of Naval technologies in the last 80 years
Will investigate!
I'd love to see this scenario run as if the British carriers were around Ceylon.
Similarly I'd love to see Pearl Harbor as if the American carriers were there and the land-based planes were alerted in time to get airborne.
100% Would love to see it.
This video get's a 👎👎 for using US ships.
@@SuperAd1980: Nah, I'll give him a pass due to technical difficulties.
Because the Chinese were allies during WWII, and if you could get the Type 45s to work, I would like to see how this scenario would play out with two Arliegh Burkes(Flight IIA, or III), two Type 45s, and Two Type 055s.
Hmm, maybe also a pair of Russian Destroyers or Frigates as they were also allies during WWII So, x2 AB, x2 Type 45, x2 Russian FFG/DDG, and x1 055 as the anti-ship missiles would be too OP unless you remove the YJ-21 and half of the YJ-18 missiles then do x2 055. However, that being said, with 8 modern destroyers they'd simply wipe the floor with the IJN, and that doesn't take into account the helicopters that GR would use.
I say this CAP, try 2 versions of this scenario, 1 where you try x1 of each ship listed here. Then, if they can't destroy the IJN fleet, do a version with x2 of each.
Will love to see this tried again in the future!
Chinesium ships dont work, they would break down and sink themselves.
They really need to add a Fortunate Son toggle switch on any of the Huey models.
Fun fact the 5 inch can also do AAA with proxy rounds would be cool to see a redo where the five inch is trying to swat the zeros too
Happy Thanksgiving Cap and Crew 😊😊😊😊😊
Happy Thanksgiving!
Cool idea, I'd love to see it again with some Type 26s or a mix between Type 26s and Type 45s once you can get their missiles working again.
100% agree and can't wait. So disappointed in this video though.
This video gets a double 👎👎 for using US ships.
Love the laser cannon sounds from the insanely Doppler-shifted piston engines when the missiles fly past the Zeroes.
this was amazing, it was one of the coolest battle to watch, all destroyer guns firing, helicopters with miniguns dogfighting Zeros
Happy ThanksBoomBoom!
In terms of the video's original question, I think this is a clear success. The Japanese have lost over a dozen ships, more have been damaged and their air wings have been severely depleted. They wouldn't be in any state to continue their attack on the British in Ceylon and probably wouldn't be able to launch one later without returning to port for repairs first either. Even if the 2 modern ships got themselves sunk, the main fleet still survives and would be fit to launch a counter attack of its own.
A modern UK carrier group, Carrier, F-35Bs and escorts. Still only a few ships vs. the Japanese force, but it would be a helluva fight.
So uh... bunch of cruise-fitted BUFFs and Rapid Dragon-fitted C130s at the island, and you have to not so much destroy the fleet, but manage to delay them for long enough for the B52s to get ready, take off and lay absolute waste to every ship in the fleet?
Loved it cap ...how about three destroyers?
I think we need to go bigger...
@grimreapers if you're going to try to simulate the damage that the Japanese sustained please please please please please get rid of this Yamato class (75,000tn)battleships😡
The Kongo Clash battleships and for that matter any battleship the Japanese had or actually used we're only 30 to 35000 ton Battleship / battle Cruisers. And there's literally nothing in game that's going to destroy a yamato-class other than some of the big Russian ship killing missiles or an Iowa class. There's no way you're going to kill that thing let alone four of them with an Burke missile.
The Yamato's are way way out of proportion to anything the Japanese had or frankly used other than in the Battle of Leyte Gulf, the only time they actually saw combat
@@grimreapers.
@Grim Reapers - Another entertaining video, Cap! Would SH-60’s with Penguin ant-ship missiles have helped at all? Maybe not considering the total time the human players had to react.
The biggest thing that would have made a difference (at the end) would have been properly modeled MK-45 Naval guns, on the DDG’s, that are able to target air targets. Just something else DCS could work on fixing for existing weapons in game. A lot of CIWS rounds could have been saved as a result.
I feel like the Flight III's didn't fire all their VLS cells. 128 quad packed ESSM = 32 Cells and 64 SM-2/SM-6 = 64 cells, for 96 cells total. However each Flight III has 96 cells. What was in the other 96 cells that was not fired?
Tomahawk + ASROCs
The VLS cells have covers that glitch occasionally. You can’t judge how many have fired by looking at the cells. The Iron Dome is like that too. It shows some tubes with missiles still in them but it is empty
I’m trying to save the videos for Christmas as I have 3 weeks off. But I keep watching them as they come out 😂
A carrier studded with a whole bunch of r2d2s and full of ammo for them. And i mean literally studded :)
I think this one calls for some rapid dragon action!! That's a tough nut to crack, and I can't think of anything else that could put out that much anti-shipping in a barrage like that. If it were two allied destroyers protected by several flights of C-17's deploying rapid dragon, they might just succeed in taking out all, or most of, the enemy carriers. At the end of the day though, what happens when you take down the carriers and then are staring down however many Yamato's down.. That doesn't sound fun for a destroyer. This was a fun one, lots of smacky boom boom, I look forward to seeing you all have another go at it!! Great flying as always Grim Reapers!!
So, howcome when Cap started to fly the Huey, there was no Fortunate Son? I thought that was just the default soundtrack for a Huey in flight any more...
Poor target deconfliction takes all the fun out of these games. With the number of missiles fired, all the carriers could've been taken out, and all battleships hurt enough to look for better things to do and other places to be
The operation almost ended very differently for the IJN. British intelligence knew the IJN were coming, although underestimated the number of carriers. Somerville took his ships to sea not only to avoid them being caught in port by air strikes, but was positioned to attack the IJN. He planned to make a night attack using torpedo bombers from his carriers (iirc followed up with the 4 radar-equipped R-class battleships closing for a surface attack). The Royal Navy had been training for this kind of night attack for two decades (having learned lessons from Jutland, when the High Seas Fleet had been able to escape at night). Although the IJN also trained for night fighting, it was only surface fighting not air operations. Without radar they would have been taken by surprise and not able to put up much of a defense.
In advance Somerville sent 4 surface search radar-equipped Albacores to locate the IJN, two of which successfully located part of the fleet. But they were attacked by fighters & neither managed to get the sighting back to Somerville in a timely manner. (One was lost, the other suffered damage including its radio and could only make a full report after landing much later at dusk.) Based on incomplete and conflicting information Somerville launched a night strike anyway hoping another radar-equipped Albacore could locate the IJN, but it was unable to. The following day he received updated accurate intelligence that the IJN fleet was stronger than thought and wisely decided to withdraw.
If Somerville had received the Albacore sighting in time, a succesful night attack could have been devestating, easily cost the IJN several capital ships and changed the course of the war. (Great battles often turn on the smallest of details.)
This was really good, well done beautiful boys! If you get it working again, I'd love to see this done again with a near future British CSG, a QE, 4 x T45 and 2 x T26. I think even then the anti-ship would be a struggle, but the AA from those ships would make for one helluva thumbnail! Plus seeing the F35's being swarmed by warbirds, if they get off the deck. Thanks again for all you do guys!
No British carrier group would have 4 t45, more like 1 or 2 at a push.
To perhaps alleviate the problem of repeatedly re-killing stuff already dead, try placing one destroyer max AA-missile range minus 10 mi behind the other. That way, lead one still has protection from trailing one, while the anti-ship missiles will be launched in two waves, giving sinking stuff time to actually SINK and not get targeted.
Also, while making all the aircraft Zeros for simplification makes sense, making all of them anti-ship is unrealistic. No carrier group attacking a target where at least some enemy fighters would be expected would ever do that. Better would be to only have as many Zeros carrying bombs as the total number of Vals and Kates that would have been on-board.
Lastly, try one of these where helicopter scouting finds the Japanese further out, AT NIGHT.
This was some unexpected but nice Thanksgiving Day boom boom.
Until the Burkes, get their LRASM-Bs and Tomahawk Block Vs, these fleet battles are going to have the same results.
I think it will take eight to ten modern destroyers packing TRUE anti-ship missiles to beat a World War Two Fleet.
A CSG with Super Hornets and F-35s packing LRASMs could definitely do this mission. Helicopters would get shot pieces.
Really need to see another version of this. With more allied assets.
Why is the 127mm gun not shooting? That is also meant as air defense
Yup would in real life.
You would use battle cruise missiles to destroy the Carries fist, because the carries has many planes.
You know that The British attack on Toranto. In Italy by the Royal navy fleet air arm. Is what gave the Japanese the idea for Pearl harbour!
Certainly did! czcams.com/video/bI0uPa1APF4/video.html
I think the Destoryet accomplished their mission. They destoryed 25% of the enemy fleet and about 50% of their air wing. The port was never bombed. Also the US ship would not have just sailed in a straight line. In WW2 Is ariel bombing did was not that affective.
Happy thanksgiving and great work as always.
I do think if the ships could be player-controlled, this would have been possible. Firing wave at the largest targets by 2 missiles each, then pause, then another wave. So many missiles were wasted not only on sinking ships, but destroyers that the AB could possibly take with their gun anyways. Knocking out the carriers then the BB would be most optimal.
Ha for the lols you should add 2 x Iowa class battleships, and 2 x Ticonderoga...
I want to see a massive fleet like this vs a US Naval fleet from 1943. True Naval war birds fighting, 300 v 300. IDK if the computer could handle it but would love to see/feel what it was like attacking/defending with multiple flights coming in at different angles. PLEASE do a time specific massive fleet battle. Would be so cool.
It irks me how many of these missiles turn into dumb munitions that go into sinking boats :(
Interesting mission......Well Done.
I love to see things like this and imagine how the victims of the modern fleet feel about the situation. Like you see the enemy fleet, with the right number of ships you've been told there will be, and you think you know their capabilities, but then your planes start exploding while you're too far out for any known weapons to even fire that distance. Then your ships, which are even further back, start exploding too, and the projectiles hitting them are too small, moving too fast and aiming too accurately to be any known weapon system. Like there are guided missile projects in development, but they're way bigger than these, less accurate, and much slower, and that's the best anyone is even working on, let alone bringing into service. It would have to feel like your enemies got handed sci-fi alien tech to play with or something, right?
Same 😆 I also wonder what it would be like if the entire modern U.S. military (but with Cold War numbers and without nukes) traveled back in time to 1942 and just let it rip against all enemies… Would the enemies give up after successful decapitation strikes? How fast would a ground invasion of continental Europe go?
@@MaxIsStrange1 You put one modern tank into almost any ground battle where it's got room to move, and it would pretty much guarantee the side it was on would win xD Like the naval and air superiority advantages are there, but for ground combat, even a 20 year old Abrams would be a god with treads.
Getting missiles on the right targets is key. Got to foul those carrier decks before they can get too many planes airborne.
I am pretty sure this is the first and only time I have heard the Yamato described as a "Generic Battleship"... I mean it is anything but.
Try to keep an altitude advantage with the choppers over the war birds so they can use their guns more effectively.
until you can figure out how to focus damage on their carriers, this is futile.
Just IMAGINE being the Japanese in this scenario. I wonder if they would have seen this then turned and ran or continued to fight. GREAT video guys!! Simba, I heard that movie reference. lol sorry no one else acknowledged it.
For the helicopter, it would have been more usefull to use seehawk to establish a radar picket to detect beyond horizon the ships of IJN and provide intell as well.
Hey cap, I was wondering if you could do a battle with Canadian ships someday. (Halifax frigates, or a future frigate that’s supposed to be based on the type 26) I’m not sure if there’s anything in the core game or if they’ll have to be made but it would be super cool to see.
Or one of our old cold war carriers 🇨🇦
This.. But have one of the helos spot/target designate for the DDG group.
The swarm (almost) always wins. Oh, like the homage to Jerry Miculek. Get some!
Have you guys ever wanted to have someone in server solely as spectator so Cap can just play and have fun? I volunteer as tribute.
For future reference if you had The British Ships working I'd still like to see One British and One American Ship and or any of the other coalition members you named! Variety is the spice of life! Please no Russian Helicopters, just doesn't look/seem right... lol I kno that kinda contradicts my first comment however I think keeping it Coalition correct looks better, even if Soviets were* technically with The Allies against The Axis, these are modern time travelers lol the Russians from their time wouldn't be on board ;)
The French Gazelle is cool tho! Makes sense😅👍
stop using the Yamato as a replacement battle ship it wasn't even in the same class as a Kongo class a heavy cruiser is closer its so not the same it untrue. I'm sure DCS has nagato's please use that instead its still not the same but much closer.
Kongo class Battlecruisers had battleship grade weaponry (14" guns) and a displacement of 27,000 tons despite having next to no armour, they had the same max speed. Yes they are smaller than a 70,000 ton Yamato but they are closer to that in function than a 10,000 ton heavy cruiser with 8" guns.
@@watcherzero5256 I wasn't suggesting using a heavy cruiser I was being flippant but the Nagato which is a DCS asset should be used instead. As this ship has a very similar displacement even if the guns aren't the same.
One would think that the ships would have a basic evasive maneuvering for defending against the bombers.
The US Arsenal Ship concept from the 1990's with 500+ VLS cells might be able to do it...
Isn't the flight profile of those Standard Missiles off? They're flying like cruise missiles.
I thought that also.
How about an 80s carrier group against the German high seas fleet at the battle of Jutland? WW1.
Does DCS not model the Mk 45 guns as anti-air? Excellent battle 👏
@Boneworm852 - No it doesn't, along with many other things. 😑 That was one of my complaints as well. The MK 45 Naval gun system used in that mode could have saved the ships from depleting their CIWS rounds as quickly as they did. I think spreading the ships a bit farther apart would have helped as well with the double tapping of certain targets.
I still believe either a high flying or earth skimming helicopters with the largest missile aimed at the carriers after the ships have been weakened by surface to surface would have been a better strategy.
Would be fun to swap out one Burke for a Tico. Even though it did eventually sink, a single one held its own very well at Midway. Those carry more missiles, including harpoons, which have a much bigger warhead than then SM6.
Two Ticos plus two Burke IIIs or a Tico plus 3 Burkes might be able to pull it off.
For one of those scenarios I would really like to see a scenario like an actual admiral would pitch it.
For example the one you have done many times, Pearl Harbour but if in any way possible ask an active or retired admiral:
If he could assemble a Fleet of modern Equipment to go back in time to prevent Pearl Harbour but you have to be as realistic as possible about it, meaning how many and which units the US-Navy could spare for that being as cost effective as possible and it is only for that attack because for reasons the fleet can only stay in 1941 for 24hours.
There were only 5 Japanese carriers in the Indian Ocean Raid. Kaga was sent back to Japan for repairs prior to the raid.
i would do a percentage ship engagement, say 20-30%. so if they have 20 ships, then you would command 4-6 ships. maybe 2 destroyers, 1 carrier and one Ticonderoga cruiser
That's a bit of history not talked about much. If ever. Must look that up. Thanks 👽👍😊
Pleasure
I think a another 2 destroyers and maybe a couple of cruisers could be nice to mix things up lots of missiles and shenanigans
Before watching, and just going be the title... yes.
Modern US 7th fleet vs IJN attack on Pearl harbor. Stagger the anti ship firing sequence. Use F35's for anti ship and all other aircraft fight the Zeros. Set ship defense to close in support and make the ships use evasive maneuvers. I bet it lasts less than 30 minutes.
One problem with ai is that they dump all missiles at once. The way a human commander would do it, would be to fire the missiles in smaller salvos, allowing the first batch to hit before shooting the next to avoid multiple hits on the same target.
I see a revisit in the future haha
Question: why are Harpoons never included? Arleigh Burkes carry 8 Harpoons each.
I say the first volley of missiles would have halted the Japanese attack, getting smoked that hard out of nowhere would kill you drive to fight.
Could you do either this one or Pearl using the Falklands liberation fleet from 1982 (or as close as you can get). With the same (or equivalent) weapons the British had on said fleet.
Why didn't the 5" guns engage the air targets?
If the cruisers' anti ship missiles could be taught to prioritize the carriers & heavy ships.. the smaller ships can be dealt with by other means.
Seahawks with antiship torpedoes
Anti ship aircraft taking off from land attacking from the flank a long with the two destroyers
It looks like the Japanese deployed in an orange slice formation. Well it looks like one at least.
I mean it looks like an actual orange slice
Food for thought, im assuming the crew on the ships would run out with stingers to defend the ship?
Stingers would still help so it’s a clever idea to add that layer of defense as well 👍
C130 gunships circling the fleet with B52s loaded with rapid dragons passing.
To the mod makers - re A6M the spitfire has a turn performance that is close to the spitfire.
I think the Chinese destroyers I think it’s the type 55 would have been more efficient and could have won in comparison to the arleigh Burke as it’s got so many anti ship missiles and a good few very powerful ones at that.
Good war game anyways! Good job 👍
It would be sick if you did some review on the superbug mod, including the growler as there has been the ability to make jamming scripts, thanks Cap!
1 more modern destroyer with a wasp class helicopter carrier would have made this more fair. imo
If this happened in real life I think the IJN would have called for a retreat. They would more than likely assume that this is only a scout force of a secret advanced fleet. They would get scared and not want to face the entire fleet
This is a great Video what about a 1960s US and British Carrier taskforce time travel to fight the IJN Pearl Harbor taskforce. I want to see A4s and Phantoms with snake eyes doing low level runs on IJNs carriers or dive bomb attacks on IJN carriers
So how many AB's would it take to win this? USA wants a rematch? Give us 8-10 of em!
How many Arleigh Burkes would it take to defeat this gargantuan fleet? I suspect 6 would do it for the aircraft. Could we add in some larger anti-ship missiles? I think, realistically, modern ships are not going to take out the battleships…especially the Yamato Class ships. You would need ridiculous numbers of SM6’s to take them out. That said, you could consider 16 ships including two aircraft carriers as a win. It is likely the Japanese would withdraw with those kind of losses. As already stated, the Arleigh Burks would withdraw as soon as they shot all of their misiles. They still might not escape the bombers, but they would never be in range of the battleships.
There is no way they would keep hitting the same ship so many times. If they spread them out, they woukd have taken way more ships out. Get the 4 carriers and the 11 cruisers out of commission with 2 to 4 missiles per and still have plenty left for the destroyers
HEY CAP. Try this with a Kirov battle cruiser
I am viewing this again after first enjoying htis months ago, and it sparked some more tumbled-history speculation for me: what about a B-1 raid on the IJN task force from Diego Garcia? Do-able?
HMS Hermes Light Carrier and HMAS Vampire V Class Destroyer Leader were sunk in this battle
I think that 4 SSGN's could do it and get away.
Great video Cap. Try doubling the US ships.
Just to the right of Calcutta (on the map), there's a place called "Noakhali". That's where my mum and dad were from.
Bit of trivia. During the Hindu/Muslim riots in pre-partition Bengal, most of the Muslims were killed in Calcutta (now Kolkata) and most of the Hindus were killed in Noakhali. So, Mahatma Gandhi visted both and made peace. Where ever Gandhi went, he took his goat so he could drink its milk - but when be went to Noakhali, someone stole the goat so in Noakhali, Gandhi's nickname is "Sagul Nay-yer" which means "without a goat".
Sorry, not exactly aviation trivia but still...
How about a repetition, but with another flotilla of two ships coming to the rescue from 30 miles away...?
The big thing about these SIMs is the AI really needs work. They need to deconflict. So many of these would end very differently if the AI held of for 3 or 4 mins for the first salvo to hit before deciding on new targets. You often see 5 or 6 AA missiles being used on a target for the first one to kill it and the other 5 just drop into the ocean. Here we see 3 or 4 missiles ploughing into a ship which is *as least* a mission kill if not an actual kill.
This is the single biggest problem with these sims atm from a viewer perspective.
This calls for a squadron of A-10s 😂
I think they might get shot down by AA and Zeros because they lack long-range weapons and they’re too slow. But B-1Bs flying max speed at 40,000 ft while launching LRASMs (24 x each) would do it…
Tried it before - harder than you'd think: czcams.com/video/5tb3Olz1kd0/video.html
@@grimreapers saved to watch later playlist ❤️
This can only be won by increasing the number of defenders or by making a precision strike on the carriers at the start of the mission - humans in planes at high altitude.
At 15 minutes in, Nagumo would have turned around.....
Yes well in the real battle he did do good naval evasion.
place the destroyers further apart eg 40 miles this will give them a greater over the horizon detection and reduce both ships hitting the same targets. 2 destroyers should survive