Stones on an Infinite Chessboard - Numberphile

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  • čas přidán 9. 01. 2022
  • Another curious puzzle and number sequence from Neil Sloane. More of our videos with Neil: bit.ly/Sloane_Numberphile
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Komentáře • 758

  • @numberphile
    @numberphile  Před 2 lety +799

    Indeed at 5:25 the graphic should show the 15 and 16 stones one square higher - Neil's "real life" board is, of course, correct.

    • @naman4067
      @naman4067 Před 2 lety +3

      Ok

    • @pkmkb
      @pkmkb Před 2 lety +2

      Ok

    • @willemvandebeek
      @willemvandebeek Před 2 lety +10

      Haha, I was about to make that comment :)

    • @imveryangryitsnotbutter
      @imveryangryitsnotbutter Před 2 lety +1

      Oaky

    • @dotintegral
      @dotintegral Před 2 lety +32

      For a moment I felt smart as I wanted to type "You can totally put 17 in there"... Seconds later I realised that the graphic had an mistake...

  • @jeremyr6034
    @jeremyr6034 Před 2 lety +778

    Hi this is Jeremy Rebenstock, Co-creator of this puzzle. Thanks so much for sharing it!

    • @tomladouceur3241
      @tomladouceur3241 Před 2 lety +66

      No way bro funny seeing you here

    • @serbestianmilo1477
      @serbestianmilo1477 Před 2 lety +8

      Sweet 👍

    • @qeithwreid7745
      @qeithwreid7745 Před 2 lety +4

      If you place one brown can’t you just do 4 lines of 1s of into infinity NESW? Edit: no

    • @qeithwreid7745
      @qeithwreid7745 Před 2 lety +14

      This puzzle is as dangerous as crosswords, Toki Pona, or bubblewrap for people like me. I am consciously disengaging from it so I can study my degree.

    • @serbestianmilo1477
      @serbestianmilo1477 Před 2 lety +3

      @@qeithwreid7745 wow what a weirdo; no, you cant - there can only be one of every numbered tile.

  • @fangjiunnewe3634
    @fangjiunnewe3634 Před 2 lety +1514

    I initially heard him say two hundred graduates instead of two undergraduates and was impressed by the level of coordination that was needed, and also the infinite monkeys and infinite typewriters was only 200 graduates to get a new math proof. But alas

  • @pasunurusaivineeth3739
    @pasunurusaivineeth3739 Před 2 lety +342

    I am more impressed by how clearly he was able to explain the expressions for bounds than the actual problem. Excellent, professor!

  • @jamielondon6436
    @jamielondon6436 Před 2 lety +493

    I can very much see this as a board game, where players take turns to place the next higher number until one can't and loses. They could try to 'snooker' each other by blocking possible squares for the opponent's next move(s) or try to create squares for their own ones as strategies …

    • @renmaddox
      @renmaddox Před 2 lety +73

      I think it might be a bit too easy to snooker, but may when that happens, the snookered player has to place a new brown stone.

    • @jamielondon6436
      @jamielondon6436 Před 2 lety +21

      @@renmaddox Maybe at the beginning, yes, so you could start off a couple rounds in or, as you said, place more brown stones …

    • @esajpsasipes2822
      @esajpsasipes2822 Před 2 lety +34

      @@renmaddox with a limit on brown stones otherwise it could go on forever - see the minimum stones part

    • @esajpsasipes2822
      @esajpsasipes2822 Před 2 lety +15

      but actually snakes and ladders could also go on forever so it's maybe not that important for the game to definitely halt

    • @Phlarx
      @Phlarx Před 2 lety +29

      Perhaps the player to place the 50-stone is the winner. If the next white move is not possible, place a brown stone. If browns are placed for 3 consecutive turns (1 * number of players + 1), the highest valued white stone wins.
      Depending on how the move-not-possible logic plays out, maybe the highest white stone loses, you try to lure your opponent into placing the highest stone.

  • @evanbelcher
    @evanbelcher Před 2 lety +442

    A really interesting problem! It's surprising to me that the solution was proven to be linearly bounded.

    • @nod2009
      @nod2009 Před 2 lety +37

      I'm surprised about that too. I could easily guess that it would grow exponentially. The fact that it's linear makes it "not-too-difficult" to look for the next steps.

    • @QuantumHistorian
      @QuantumHistorian Před 2 lety +35

      @@nod2009 I'm not sure that last comment follows from the linearly bound. The game tree will still explode super-exponentially (something like factorially), just in the "wide" direction rather than the "tall" one.

    • @Valkhiya
      @Valkhiya Před 2 lety +30

      I was really expecting it to be like the TREE sequence and other sequential puzzles like that, that have reasonably trivial and low first few terms and then explode to absurd numbers really fast... But those bound proofs were really elegant, so I was pleasantly surprised!

    • @robinhammond4446
      @robinhammond4446 Před 2 lety +15

      It would have been interesting to see the derivation of n log(n), and the linear bound. I think we got deprived of the best bits!

    • @bernhardkrickl3567
      @bernhardkrickl3567 Před 2 lety +14

      That surprised me as well. First he said the bound is n*log(n) which didn't surprise me after the long explanation but then, suddenly, we jump down to 714*n. =O

  • @johnchessant3012
    @johnchessant3012 Před 2 lety +98

    In our mad dash to learn higher levels of math _quickly_ we often miss that there are so many interesting problems to solve if we just think about the simplest concepts a bit more creatively. This video is a great example of that!

  • @charlottedarroch
    @charlottedarroch Před 2 lety +73

    The upper bound mentioned on the OEIS can actually be improved to a(n) 1. Then k has a neighbour which is at most k/2. Suppose we continue this for d steps. Then there is a square no larger than max(1,k/2^d) within distance d of the number k.
    Then the n ones along with the numbers in [2,k/2^d] cover all numbers in [2,k] within a distance of d. The argument for the a(n) < 714n continues by saying that each square covers at most (2d+1)^2 numbers. However, this can be improved by observing that any number x in [2,k/2^d] is within distance 1 of a smaller number y in that same set, or a one. So x's square heavily overlaps with the square of y. In fact, there can be at most 4d+1 numbers covered by x which aren't covered by y, which occurs when x and y are diagonally adjacent.
    This gives that the n ones cover at most (2d+1)^2 numbers each and the numbers in [2,k/2^d] cover at most 4d+1 numbers each, but that these cover all of [2,k]. So we obtain the inequality n(2d+1)^2+(k/2^d-1)(4d+1) >= k-1.
    This becomes k 0, so provided 2^d > 4d+1, which is true for all d >= 5. Then to obtain the best bound with this method, we minimise the linear coefficient of n, subject to the constraint that d >= 5. This is minimised for d = 6, so we obtain k

    • @neilsloane2512
      @neilsloane2512 Před 2 lety +20

      I added your new bound to A337663!

    • @charlottedarroch
      @charlottedarroch Před 2 lety +29

      @@neilsloane2512 I really wish I had spotted this earlier, but I've just improved my bound with another simple tweak. When I mention that any number x in [2,k/2^d] is within distance 1 of a smaller number y, I should have realised that x is in fact within distance 1 of at least two numbers smaller than it (the numbers which sum to x), y and z. And the overlap is slightly higher as a result, so x only has at most 2d+1 squares which aren't covered by smaller numbers, for any x in [2,k/2^d]. This involves checking all the ways that both y and z can be adjacent to x, but you'll find a maximum non-overlap of 2d+1 cells for x.
      So in fact we obtain that each of the n ones cover at most (2d+1)^2 numbers, each of the numbers in [2,k/2^d] cover at most 2d+1 numbers, yet all numbers in [2,k] are covered. Hence n(2d+1)^2+(k/2^d-1)(2d+1) >= k-1.
      This becomes k 0, which happens for d >= 3. Then the optimal choice of d is d = 5, which gives k

    • @asheep7797
      @asheep7797 Před 2 měsíci +1

      Mathematician at work

  • @sicapanjesis3987
    @sicapanjesis3987 Před 2 lety +80

    When u see there is an infinite chess board and Neil Sloane in it, it is a great video

  • @erikbrendel3217
    @erikbrendel3217 Před 2 lety +168

    I really expected the upper bound to be at least quadratic in n, maybe even exponential. I did definitely not expect the upper bound to be linear as well. Crazy! It seems that having two dimensions at hand doesn't help much. Now, I am curious whether the upper bound is still linear in higher-dimensional cases (e.g. 3D). But I suspect it is...

    • @fplancke3336
      @fplancke3336 Před 2 lety +11

      The proof of the 714n upper bound is given in the OEIS notes on the sequence. I haven't worked out the details, but it looks to me it should work to prove a similar linear upper bound for any finite dimension.

    • @guillaumelagueyte1019
      @guillaumelagueyte1019 Před 2 lety +6

      I suppose it's possible to systematize the proof to a higher dimension, except you'll be working with e.g. a cube of size n instead of a square of side n, so you'll always be able to find a bound big enough that your n^d (d for dimension) will be too small. If you're still working with 65000, th cube would have to be of side 15 as well, and 15*15*15 = 3375, which is smaller.
      That's not rigorous, but I suppose it does extend to 3D and any higher dimension as well.

    • @kindlin
      @kindlin Před 2 lety +6

      The linear upper bound comes from the linear increase in the number of the squares you can _ever possibly_ fit near brown square. You can't come close to filling a whole square around a brown stone because each new stone you add in the square can only grab so many nearby stones before it would be a new maximum, making the task even harder.
      The completed pattern for the B=6's value is 60, which has a 'max' radius R=5.9squares=log(60)/log(2). If you go (2R)^2, you would need 139 nearby squares to fill up the entire area around the brown stone for polynomial increase, but the actual answer is 60/6 = 10, way way off from 139. The are so constraining that it's actually quite hard to approach the bound.

    • @AutomaticHourglass
      @AutomaticHourglass Před 2 lety

      Another argument is that the bound might be invalid for 6 dimensions as every stone would have 728 neighbors. wdyt?

    • @fplancke3336
      @fplancke3336 Před 2 lety +3

      @@AutomaticHourglass Sure, but another bound would work instead, with just another number instead of 714.

  • @adamplace1414
    @adamplace1414 Před 2 lety +18

    I love puzzles like this, because it's so easy to play around with at home and the rules are understandable in a few minutes, but the math is so deep that they haven't even proven the best total for 7 yet.

  • @wrong1man
    @wrong1man Před 2 lety +3

    This man reminds me so much of my grandfather. The calm yet excited manner in which he is presenting this riddle. And my grandfather loved riddles, he was an engineer so he loved math and was always teasing me with riddles and questions. He would have loved this one. I miss him.

  • @konstantinkh
    @konstantinkh Před 2 lety +21

    To be fair, "somewhere between 5n-4 and 714n" is not that bad of a constraint for such a problem.

  • @chillsahoy2640
    @chillsahoy2640 Před 2 lety +71

    Referencing Everest, Neil knows how to peak Brady's interest.

    • @mercer5888
      @mercer5888 Před 2 lety +8

      Is that a pun or a spelling mistake 🤔

    • @chillsahoy2640
      @chillsahoy2640 Před 2 lety +31

      @@mercer5888 It's a pun, and that's the height of my comedic ability.

    • @ooc6233
      @ooc6233 Před 2 lety +13

      Its all down hill from here

    • @vez3834
      @vez3834 Před 2 lety +11

      @@chillsahoy2640 Peak? Height? You must feel like you are on top of the world with these puns!

    • @murphygreen8484
      @murphygreen8484 Před 2 lety +1

      @@chillsahoy2640 sure it's not the pique of your comic abilities? I'll show myself out

  • @bringbringish
    @bringbringish Před 2 lety +23

    This was very interesting, clear and the professor has a relaxing voice too, which is a plus in my book!

  • @sakkikoyumikishi
    @sakkikoyumikishi Před 2 lety +77

    Always excited when there's a new Neil Sloane video 😊

    • @Bleighckques
      @Bleighckques Před 2 lety +2

      I love his voice and the way he speaks

    • @d30few
      @d30few Před 2 lety +1

      @@Bleighckques reminds me of the scientist character from futurama

  • @aspuzling
    @aspuzling Před 2 lety +151

    It's interesting that the maximum lengths of the stone sequence we have found are so low. The search tree must be very broad rather than deep.

    • @beeble2003
      @beeble2003 Před 2 lety +25

      There are many trees to investigate (lots of possible initial positions for 8 brown stones) and 60 moves is pretty deep. Even a branching factor of 1.25 (i.e., having, on average 1.25 legal moves per position) means you have to consider over a million positions per tree.

    • @EebstertheGreat
      @EebstertheGreat Před 2 lety +8

      @@beeble2003 I think it's much worse than that. The branching factor increases with its depth n, so the size of the game tree is superexponential in n. In fact, I think it's more like n! than e^n. And the depth of the average game tree increases linearly with k, the number of huts, so you end up with a game tree of size (ak)! (where 5 < a < 714) for each arrangement of k huts. And like you say, there are many, many such arrangements. For a given arrangement of (k-1) huts, we have to consider placing the kth hut in each open square adjacent to the largest number in any leaf of the game tree for that (k-1)-hut arrangement. There's something like sqrt((a(k-1))!) of those. So we wind up with a product of factorials, which is never good news.

    • @beeble2003
      @beeble2003 Před 2 lety +6

      @@EebstertheGreat I don't think it's nearly that bad. You're thinking of each move as being place the next white stone, or the next brown stone (if available), which is a nice idea. It seems that, typically, there are only a couple of places where the next white stone can be placed. The next brown stone must be placed at most distance 2 from the highest white stone. If you want to place it somewhere else then either it's close to an existing stone (so you could have played it when that stone was the highest) or it's far from the existing stones and it will have no impact until you have something within two squares of it, so you can wait until then before placing it. So, at each move, there are a constant number of brown options and it looks like a small number of white moves, so it looks likely to be a simple exponential relationship to me.

    • @EebstertheGreat
      @EebstertheGreat Před 2 lety +1

      @@beeble2003 I guess that's true, now that I think about it. The number of new opportunities placing a stone can create definitely has a hard upper bound of 8, and a practical upper bound of something like 3 or 4 in constructions likely to get big. So the game tree clearly can't grow faster than 8^n in the long term, and in practice probably something like 1.5^n.
      You still have the problem that the number of k-hut arrangements you need to check depends on the distance you can reach with each (k-1)-hut start, which also increases with k. So if the first hut always starts at the origin, there are five essentially different nontrivial 2-hut arrangements. Each of these can result in a variety of possible games, some of which push the boundaries of where a relevant third hut can be placed pretty far. After eliminating symmetric variations, all of these new placements constitute essentially different 3-hut arrangements. These can each push the boundary much farther, because you can reach a higher number with a 3-hut arrangement. In general, you can reach the value f(k) = θ(k) from an optimal k-hut start, and the diameter of the largest k-hut start is also g(k) = θ(k), but the diameter of the average k-hut start is θ(k^.5). It seems obvious to me that the number of new relevant places a kth hut can be placed increases with k, though I'm not sure I have a proof. But if it does, then the number of relevant, essentially different k-hut arrangements (i.e. the number you need to check) is ω(a^k) for all a > 0.

    • @beeble2003
      @beeble2003 Před 2 lety

      @@EebstertheGreat Yes, but if you think of placing huts as a kind of move, too, you always start with just one hut, so there's only one start position. Assuming that there are only a constant number of legal white-stone moves in any position, that's enough to give a k^{714n} bound on the size of the search problem for n brown stones. Not a practical way of doing it, but it does give the bound.

  • @mazza420
    @mazza420 Před 2 lety +118

    videos with neil are always absolutely wonderful!

  • @GreenMeansGOF
    @GreenMeansGOF Před 2 lety +18

    I get the feeling that this video will lead towards progress being made on this problem.

    • @idjles
      @idjles Před 2 lety +3

      Neil was making that really obvious. Someone will find a(7) no doubt very soon.

    • @Wecoc1
      @Wecoc1 Před 2 lety +2

      He made that statement even clearer on his CZcams channel where he talked about this problem among others. He said it's probable new things will be found soon because not many people had tried to solve these yet.

    • @alexpotts6520
      @alexpotts6520 Před 2 lety +8

      I recall a few months ago Matt Parker set a challenge to the maths community to find periodic tilings for various hypercube nets. Within twenty-four hours correct solutions for all 100-plus hypercube nets had been submitted to his website.

  • @matthewwhiteside4619
    @matthewwhiteside4619 Před 2 lety +35

    I was about to write that I wondered if it had been proven that you can reach any arbitrarily high number given enough brown stones, but then I remembered the zigzag construction which literally already proves that. Very interesting video, loved it.

    • @danielyuan9862
      @danielyuan9862 Před 2 lety

      Yes, the linear lower bound already proves your question.

    • @isavenewspapers8890
      @isavenewspapers8890 Před 2 lety +1

      @@danielyuan9862 Yes, that has already been stated.

  • @TaranovskiAlex
    @TaranovskiAlex Před 2 lety +15

    I love videos with Neil Sloane, he manages to explain things in the best possible way)

  • @MonsieurNab
    @MonsieurNab Před 2 lety +4

    I love the way he stacks his big books, writing on the side what they are about

    • @filipsperl
      @filipsperl Před 2 lety +3

      or he could just turn them around

  • @kenhaley4
    @kenhaley4 Před 2 lety +10

    I loved this one! Finding a simple proof for something that initially seems almost impossible to prove is very satisfying and insightful!

    • @PattyManatty
      @PattyManatty Před 2 lety

      Well the bounds aren't very tight. The numbers is between 5n and 714n which is pretty wide.
      But of course the fact that the upper and lower bounds are both linear at least proves that the sequence grows O(n) at the limit which is definitely a cool result

  • @dg7815
    @dg7815 Před 2 lety +10

    I wish my actual math classes were as pleasant as these videos.

  • @noblevi3623
    @noblevi3623 Před 2 lety +28

    wow this guy is really cool, like a more chilled version of Cliff.

    • @ScorieDivine
      @ScorieDivine Před 2 lety

      Cliff?

    • @noblevi3623
      @noblevi3623 Před 2 lety +1

      @@ScorieDivine Cliff Stoll, the guy with a 1,000 Klein Bottles under his house.

    • @ScorieDivine
      @ScorieDivine Před 2 lety

      @@noblevi3623 Thanks, mate.

  • @Dysiode
    @Dysiode Před 2 lety +6

    That was extremely fascinating! Neil is both a great orator and a great explainer! The explanation of the upper and lower bounds was really intuitive

  • @CoteMoretz
    @CoteMoretz Před 2 lety +4

    I love how excited he gets over these numbers, it reminds me of how I get when I’ve got a problem I’m trying to sort out and figure out a clever way to do it. I get so excited solving it, this is an awesome video

    • @sebastianorellana3912
      @sebastianorellana3912 Před 2 lety

      I agree completely! I found a solution to this math problem I'd been working on because I realized it was basically a quadratic!

  • @General12th
    @General12th Před 2 lety +3

    7:39 The most ominous "very cunning" I've _ever_ heard in my life.

  • @LilZombieFooFoo
    @LilZombieFooFoo Před 2 lety +5

    New videos with Neil Sloane are more exciting than most holidays in my home. Always a joy to see what new mathematical toys he's got in the chest.

  • @reidflemingworldstoughestm1394

    These are the best. I love Neil's method. He shows you enough to follow his logic without ever repeating himself, and he's got all kinds of excitement about the topic.

  • @WeArePharmers
    @WeArePharmers Před 2 lety +3

    I, for one, would love a Neil Sloane ASMR video

  • @PeterFreese
    @PeterFreese Před 2 lety +1

    Love the videos with Neil Sloane. He's one of my favorite Numberphile guests.

  • @astromus
    @astromus Před 2 lety

    The videos with Neil are always great!

  • @QuantumHistorian
    @QuantumHistorian Před 2 lety +15

    Am I the only one who thinks that this would make an excellent 2 player game? Players take turns to place sequential numbers, first one who doesn't have a valid move loses. So not only do you have to place your tile, you want to try and block the other player. With lots of different initial set ups of huts, the replayability would be huge!

    • @oncedidactic
      @oncedidactic Před 2 lety +1

      Kinda like Hive but all numerical and no differentiation of pieces. But it could be fun to (selectively) add special moves. e.g. once a game, a player can place a -1 blue hut before they move. Or whatever. Would really blow up the game tree even more 😜

  •  Před 2 lety

    This video just kept getting better and better!

  • @Mephisto707
    @Mephisto707 Před 2 lety +28

    I wonder if the sequence values up to n=6 were found by computer brute force or they were proven mathematically.

    • @beeble2003
      @beeble2003 Před 2 lety +21

      Almost certainly a combination of a smarter-than-brute-force computer search and mathematical proof that the search covered all the cases.

    • @nanamacapagal8342
      @nanamacapagal8342 Před 2 lety +7

      @@beeble2003 Almost like how God's number was squeezed out. It was mostly computer search but it was definitely doing it more efficiently than a brute force search.

    • @tomladouceur3241
      @tomladouceur3241 Před 2 lety +12

      The first few (n= 1 through 4) were trying every possible position accounting for rotational and reflection symmetry. The higher couple used some more clever symmetries but were still mostly brute force.

    • @TruthNerds
      @TruthNerds Před 2 lety +3

      I don't think you meant it that way but it sounds a bit dismissive of computer-assisted proofs. They aren't the most elegant necessarily, but once they are independently verified, they are every bit as valid as manual proofs.
      Specifically, I have vivid memories of people dismissing the computer-assisted proof of the four color theorem and loudly claiming to have found a counterexample. In reality, every last one of them turned out to be fallacious, to my non-existent shock. 🙂

  •  Před 2 lety +7

    I loved every minute of this, and now I want to play it so bad!

  • @wesleythomas6858
    @wesleythomas6858 Před 2 lety +1

    Appears to be similar to a surface area to volume problem. Enjoyed that, thank you

  • @IamFluffY90
    @IamFluffY90 Před 2 lety +8

    Has this been extrapolated to different grid shapes (triangles/hexagons) or higher dimensions? Or other limits (like no diagonals, or at least 3 neighbors)? Lots of cool things you could do with this game

    • @metallsnubben
      @metallsnubben Před 2 lety

      That upper bound should still apply since it doesn't rely on grid shape at all (just the fact that to make a number you need to add at least 2 previous tiles). The lower, probably not since that relies on finding a particular construction
      Also for triangles you'd have to decide if adjacency means sharing a side or if corner is enough (which is true of squares as well to be fair, and absolutely with/without diagonals is interesting)

    • @david-hogarty
      @david-hogarty Před 2 lety +2

      @@metallsnubben i think the upper bound does depend on grid shape, because the number of cells at distance log2 N needs to be asymptotically less than N. This is certainly true of planar, non overlapping grids, and may even be true of euclidean n-dimensional non overlapping grids, but is not necessarily true of hyperbolic grids.

    • @metallsnubben
      @metallsnubben Před 2 lety

      @@david-hogarty The real nasty question then is what... I don't even know what to call it, "level of hyperbolic" do you need to go infinitely high with N starting pieces

  • @Matthew-bu7fg
    @Matthew-bu7fg Před 2 lety

    one of the few numberphile videos I understood all the way through! Haha.
    Fantastic video! Very instructive. And a great problem too!

  • @tactical1981
    @tactical1981 Před 2 lety

    Happy new year, Neil!

  • @PopeGoliath
    @PopeGoliath Před 2 lety +1

    Infinite space, a balance of procedure and freedom of choice, golfing for upper and lower bounds... This is recreational mathematics at its finest.

  • @Sakanakao
    @Sakanakao Před 2 lety +2

    Surprised we got through a Neil video without a mention of the OEIS! Though sequence A337663 does appear, of course.

  • @jansenart0
    @jansenart0 Před 2 lety +10

    Mathematicians: "infinite 2d area, got it."
    Every other human: **loading infinity* *please wait** "...uhhhhhh."

  • @WhirlingSteel
    @WhirlingSteel Před 2 lety

    I love the visuals on this one. I was thinking showing the white numbered tiles as slightly higher on the graph based on relative size would much better help illuminate the concept visually. Well done.

  • @JohnnyLeven
    @JohnnyLeven Před 2 lety

    I loved this one. Very well explained.

  • @macronencer
    @macronencer Před 2 lety +1

    Really enjoyed this proof. Very interesting game!

  • @ZachGatesHere
    @ZachGatesHere Před 2 lety +2

    I'm a simple man. I see Neil Sloane, I watch and I like.

  • @theosib
    @theosib Před 2 lety +4

    What happens if you first put down 3 blue stones and 1 brown?

  • @Czeckie
    @Czeckie Před 2 lety +7

    great video! I'm so glad this is not yet another base dependent sequence, but an actually interesting mathematical problem

    • @filipsperl
      @filipsperl Před 2 lety

      well you can argue it is just as dependant on the shape of the grid and the number of dimensions of the board as other sequences are dependent on number bases. Pretty sure the result of this would change if you had a hexagonal chessboard or other types

  • @Valvex_
    @Valvex_ Před 2 lety +9

    The picture at 5:40 is sadly incorrect, the 15 and 16 needed to be 1 place higher.

    • @beeble2003
      @beeble2003 Před 2 lety +1

      The pinned comment now says this, but it was probably posted after you opened the page.

  • @triple16
    @triple16 Před 2 lety +7

    Reminds me of Minesweeper 🚩

  • @peace2652
    @peace2652 Před 2 lety +1

    The legend returns. I love Neil.

  • @daskut.
    @daskut. Před 2 lety

    Man, I love this channel

  • @iPrint3D
    @iPrint3D Před 2 lety +4

    "For that I need another piece of paper." 😁

  • @reinatheomni-panda7028
    @reinatheomni-panda7028 Před 2 lety +3

    What happens when you extend the game up into higher dimensions? Obviously, you could just do the same sequences as a uniplane within the 3D space, but you've also got extra spaces now "above" and "below" that that you can expand into. I wonder if anyone has worked on that.

  • @clilhuseynov1364
    @clilhuseynov1364 Před 2 lety +3

    Videos made with this man encourage me to study mathematics instead of IT in University.

    • @shigekax
      @shigekax Před 2 lety

      You'll get plenty of both in both tbh

  • @gurkiratsingh7tha993
    @gurkiratsingh7tha993 Před 2 lety

    As always great video

  • @PunmasterSTP
    @PunmasterSTP Před 2 lety

    Infinite chessboard? More like "I want to know more!" Another fabulous Numberphile video that answers some questions but leads to many others; keep up the great work!

  • @descuddlebat
    @descuddlebat Před 2 lety +2

    A curiosity to note is that for the first few terms, not only do the terms increase, but the gaps between them also increase; However, the upper bound is proven to be linear.

  • @austinbutts3000
    @austinbutts3000 Před 2 lety

    I was originally going to say n log(n) sounds like a better upper bound because it's smaller for all positive integers < e^714, but then I realized that's only a finite set against the infinite set of positive integers greater than that value. So well done on that upper bound, well done.

    • @danielyuan9862
      @danielyuan9862 Před 2 lety

      That's why people think about big O notation. Because 714n beats n*log(n) for large n.

  • @alanshand829
    @alanshand829 Před 2 lety +1

    For the lower bound: Assuming you place the first stone at (0,0), and the second at (2,2), by placing the 3rd at (3,-1) you could wrap around to the 1st stone again , using just 4 of the spaces around stone 3, and 4 of the unused spaces around stone 1 to get to 14. Continuing out as in the video would increase the lower bound to 5n-1 for n>2. I think...

    • @jaggajasoos5067
      @jaggajasoos5067 Před 5 měsíci

      But what we rally are looking at is asymptotics. So improving 5 would be the main goal. If we improve n then that would be even better

  • @statelyelms
    @statelyelms Před 11 měsíci

    I love the recording of Neil's voice. Sounds like I'm being talked through a puzzle by a mathematically-inclined G-man. Very soothing..

  • @EddyGurge
    @EddyGurge Před 2 lety

    Wasn't expecting to care about this video. Was totally spellbound. Super cool!

  • @fejfo6559
    @fejfo6559 Před 2 lety +10

    I wonder if there is a small modification you can make to rules such that the number of stones grows quickly in function of the number of huts.
    Maybe allowing to place stone if it's the sum of it's neighbors divided by their common divisor

    • @lesbianaconda2971
      @lesbianaconda2971 Před 2 lety +1

      Wonder what would happen if you made the rules “can add any stones within the neighboring range to get the new value” rather than “all stones in the range must add to new value”; ie, allowing
      412
      53x
      (where x is an empty square)

    • @fejfo6559
      @fejfo6559 Před 2 lety

      @@lesbianaconda2971 That wouldn't change much as you are still guaranteed to have a stone less then H/2 next to stone H. You would have to allow for a way to let large stones go relatively far away from small stones while not allowing them to go infinitely far

    • @danielyuan9862
      @danielyuan9862 Před 2 lety

      That doesn't change the proof of the upper bound that was mentioned in the video. In fact, even if you say you can add a stone as long as the sum of the neighboring stones is _at least_ the number of the recent stone, then the proof in the video holds.
      Nvm I got it the wrong way around

  • @waynewelshans1172
    @waynewelshans1172 Před 2 lety +4

    This guy's voice is amazing. He should do audio book reading.

    • @danwoodward23
      @danwoodward23 Před 2 lety

      I was going to comment the exact same thing. 😊

    • @paulkennedy8701
      @paulkennedy8701 Před 2 lety

      I HATE his voice. I'm struggling to get through the video. I would have to drop a subject if he was the lecturer.

  • @kevina5337
    @kevina5337 Před 2 lety +1

    Gotta love the Parker powers of 2 at 12:54 😂🤣

  • @LukaszWiklendt
    @LukaszWiklendt Před 2 lety +1

    Fantastic video. Computer science style complexity theory in a simple game.

  •  Před 2 lety

    I love Neil so much.

  • @gilnims
    @gilnims Před 2 lety +9

    I love the collection of books behind him. It’s exactly what I am interested in, from Bash/AWK to Mathematica! I just wish I was as smart as him!

    • @magica3526
      @magica3526 Před 2 lety +2

      anyone as enthusiastic with math and learning as he is will eventually be as smart

    • @harcovanhees394
      @harcovanhees394 Před 2 lety +1

      Just add if you want: 5:02 Gradshteyn and Kornshell - 6:07 The Maple Handbook - 6:47 The Enceclopedia of integer sequence - 6:49 Handbook of integer sequence....🙂

  • @detectivejonesw
    @detectivejonesw Před 2 lety +2

    This is a fascinating little problem

  • @ronaldderooij1774
    @ronaldderooij1774 Před 2 lety +1

    I fail to see the use of it, but I am happy that he was so happy about it.

    • @intrepidmixedmedia7939
      @intrepidmixedmedia7939 Před 2 lety

      Well, puzzles don't always have an application. Or perhaps the application of puzzles is recreation?

  • @hwangsaessi2335
    @hwangsaessi2335 Před 2 lety +3

    Will there be a closed-form expression for the maximum number as a function of n (i.e., the number of brown stones)? If yes, it must be a linear function, since the upper and lower bounds are both linear, and the function must be strictly increasing, right? If not, can that even happen? Since you need the sequence to be strictly-increasing, positive integer-valued and between two linear functions...?

    • @beeble2003
      @beeble2003 Před 2 lety +3

      Very unlikely to be a closed-form expression for something like that, though there could be a closed form for is limit as n goes to infinity. The function must be strictly increasing because, if it's possible to get to height h from n brown stones, it's also possible to get to h from n+1 brown stones, just by putting the last brown stone far away from the others.
      Strictly increasing isn't implied by the pair of linear bounds. 0,2,2,6,4,10,6,... where the i'th term is 2i if i is even and i if i is odd is bounded above by 2i and below by i, but is not strictly increasing. The actual answer is not necessarily a linear function: it could be something like i + log i.

  • @shrimpstance
    @shrimpstance Před 2 lety +1

    Neil's voice is so soothing!

  • @elmiraguth
    @elmiraguth Před 2 lety

    I really like the upper and lower bounds (the way they were derived).

  • @andrewmirror4611
    @andrewmirror4611 Před 7 měsíci

    About n*log(n), there is probably a significant decrease like almost to (n-1)log(n-1) or smth due to the requirement that for any working configuration it's required to have two 1-pointers in a square of 3x3, since otherwise you simply can't place #2

  • @TheTechAdmin
    @TheTechAdmin Před 2 lety +1

    My goodness. You can hear how much paper/dust is in this room.

  • @zackattack2235
    @zackattack2235 Před 2 lety +2

    Using this same argument, can we show that if instead of a 2-D board we had an N-D board, we still would have an upper limit on the number of stones we can place? I think the fact that 2^x >>> x^N is relevant there, as well.

    • @tomladouceur3241
      @tomladouceur3241 Před 2 lety +1

      The same nlog(n) upper bound would hold for any dimension I believe

  • @ASSamiYT
    @ASSamiYT Před rokem

    When you are a serious mathematician and "Sloane" on CZcams gives you ASRM. Major educator.

    • @ASSamiYT
      @ASSamiYT Před rokem

      Ooh, and when the brown paper comes in at one. AND I got Adam Savage on there just now. :D

  • @geraldsnodd
    @geraldsnodd Před 2 lety +7

    Neil Sloane is the kind of person everyone likes for a grandpa 👴. Atleast I do.

  • @davidsteinhour5562
    @davidsteinhour5562 Před 2 lety +1

    Animations are off the chain in this one

  • @TheSmegPod
    @TheSmegPod Před 2 lety +2

    I'm convinced that this guy is a long-lost twin of Arthur C. Clarke

  • @PrimeCarrot
    @PrimeCarrot Před rokem +1

    As an engineering undergraduate student, I see a numerical solution to this using matrix arrays.
    Consider the board to be a matrix of N by N size. Set X cells to be equal to 1 in random positions (these are the brown stones). For each i:N column and j:N row, detect if the sum of any two adjacent cells is equal to the cell value at the current index. If true, set the current cell as the new value. If repeated enough times, the results for the final value could be mapped out as a distribution, with the maximum being the highest achievable value (the answer we are looking for).
    I'm sure there are plenty of kinks that need to be worked through, but those are my preliminary thoughts.
    Has anyone tried this? I plan on doing it as soon as I finish my coursework.

  • @Golinth
    @Golinth Před 2 lety

    This man’s voice is a joy to listen to

  • @expiredoatmeal6176
    @expiredoatmeal6176 Před 2 lety +2

    Would love to see a website with a simultation to play around with this idea!

  • @additionaddict5524
    @additionaddict5524 Před 2 lety

    We've all had those lectures where we thought we understood, walked out the lecture with notes that look like that brown paper, and later find we aren't able to recreate the arguments.

  • @thelocalsage
    @thelocalsage Před 2 lety

    also love videos with neil 🥰🥰🥰

  • @TheMA5B
    @TheMA5B Před 2 lety

    great video! can you please link the papers where they prove the upper bounds?

  • @carltonleboss
    @carltonleboss Před 2 lety +4

    What if you stack stones on top of each other and make the puzzle 3D? Surely that would result in higher numbers

    • @Anonymous-df8it
      @Anonymous-df8it Před 2 lety +1

      Yeah. What if we had 2 parameters, the number of stones *AND* the number of dimensions!

  • @orang1921
    @orang1921 Před 2 lety +1

    a great numberphile host!

  • @joshuan.
    @joshuan. Před 2 lety +2

    He sounds like an evil genius and I love it

  • @telotawa
    @telotawa Před rokem

    1:29 what do you mean? you can put one brown, then a white 1 next to it, and then a white 2 next to those, and then a white 3 next to the 1 and 2, a white 4 next to the brown,1,2, etc
    or do you intentionally not have a white 1?

  • @asabovesobelow8901
    @asabovesobelow8901 Před 2 lety

    More Neil Sloane plz

  • @dbneptune
    @dbneptune Před 2 lety

    Very chill episode :)

  • @jchampagne2
    @jchampagne2 Před 2 lety

    It occurred to me at some point that Neil sounds like Professor Farnsworth from Futurama, and now I can't unhear it.

  • @precumming
    @precumming Před 2 lety +2

    Edit: with a friend we got the new minimum up to 6n with 3 or more stones
    You can get (n-1)*6 by having a line of 1001001001001, 2 is placed above and to the left of the leftmost 1 with another 1 to the left. Then just go along the line 3 4 5 6 7 ... and at the end loop around and go on the underside.

    • @tomladouceur3241
      @tomladouceur3241 Před 2 lety +1

      You're right. I believe it is 6n-7 when I drew it up. You should email Dr. Sloane to submit an edit for you so you can get your name in the problem.

  • @Luper1billion
    @Luper1billion Před 2 lety +1

    Really nice. Basically the game of lifes lost cousin

  • @wollf92
    @wollf92 Před 2 lety +1

    decided to quickly draft up a program to work it out, haven't looked at it smartly yet but there are 32 configurations for 2 tiles to land on 16 if we dont account for rotations and reflections

    • @tomladouceur3241
      @tomladouceur3241 Před 2 lety

      Theres going to be 8 symmetric answers for each with rotations, so it looks like 4 unique boards, but I dont recall if that is correct or not

    • @wollf92
      @wollf92 Před 2 lety

      @@tomladouceur3241 I'm going work it out a bit more tomorrow and filter out the symmetries and I'll get back at you

    • @tomladouceur3241
      @tomladouceur3241 Před 2 lety

      @@wollf92 There are a number of programs linked on the OEIS page if you want some tips and tricks, best of luck!

  • @JJvanderMeer
    @JJvanderMeer Před 2 lety +3

    Neil Sloan is like the Bob Ross of maths...

  • @emannuelchern7081
    @emannuelchern7081 Před 2 lety

    Love this video! Really appealing for a math student like me. BTW, could anyone tell me where can I find some of the relevant articles which are related to this interesting board game? Thank you in advance.