The USN Pacific Submarine Campaign - The Dark Year (Dec'41 - Dec'42)
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- čas přidán 28. 12. 2021
- Today we take a look at the opening year of the USN's pacific sub campaign, where almost everything went wrong, but laid the groundwork for things to start going right.
Sources:
www.amazon.co.uk/Unrestricted-Warfare-Officers-Submarine-Victory/dp/047138495X
www.usni.org/press/books/silent-victory
www.amazon.co.uk/Silent-Service-World-War-Submarine/dp/1636241263
www.amazon.co.uk/Sink-Em-All-Submarine-Warfare/dp/1387400738
Footage from US National Archives video codes:
428-NPC-26/15510/19449/15510/15502/15887/19460
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Pinned post for Q&A :)
How good would Shinano be if she was converted in the same way Kaga was converted (big tall hangar on top of the hull)? And if she had been present at Leyte (in the above mentioned configuration), would the battle have gone differently?
For Q&A:
1)how important was Malacca Strait in WWII?
2)slightly off topic - If Japan didn't attack Pearl Harbor and then Philippines, what would have been the event that US could have used as an excuse for escalating conflict and joining the war? Would they be forced to join European Front first instead?
HMAS Graph the RN U boat ......... did any other navy use a captured vessel in active service in ww2 ?
@@mathewkelly9968 you mean major navy or any navy? Pretty sure french and chinese used basically anything that was captured or handed down. Same goes partially for soviets and even japanese. US was too rich for that having peacetime industry and all that. UK, Italy and Germany? Nice idea.
@@mathewkelly9968 *no idea
I hate Gboard...
The Empire of Japan would like to thank the US bureau of ordnance for their assistance in their early war effort
Amen
I have to ask. At what point did the Bureau of Ordinance’s behaviour crossed the line between incompetence and treason.
@@ph89787 When they denied for the 200th consecutive time that the MK14 was faulty.
@@ph89787 Perhaps when refused to do proper testing, because of expenses.
@@ph89787 When they were found guilty of intentionally aiding Japan.
"If the Bureau of Ordnance can't provide us with torpedoes that will hit and explode, or with a gun larger than a peashooter, then for God's sake get the Bureau of Ships to design a boathook with which we can rip the plates off the target's sides." -Admiral Lockwood during an early 1943 Washington conference with Admiral King
The subs' guns ended up being upgraded, with the 3" guns first being replaced with surplus 4" guns from the old 4-pipers and the S-class boats, then later with a 'wet' version of the 5"/25 AA gun modified for surface fire only.
Oh, they also moved the location of the deck guns from aft to fwd, making them more useful offensively
What Admiral Lockwood said is an understatement of the mk 14 problem
@@Idahoguy10157 z
I'm starting to like this Lockwood guy.
Admiral King: *Demonic voice* What did you say?
Lockwood: -Scared- The sub weapons aren't good.
*Admiral King floats up and heads to BUORD*
I qualified submarines in 1980. I knew two men who had served aboard WWII diesel boats, although their service was after WWII. Our own submarine, one of the early "41 for Freedom" Missile boats built in the 1960's, still had a lot of interior gear that was exactly the same as a WWII submarine. When I see something on the discovery channel today that shows the interior of new Nuclear submarines, I am well amazed. We were gages, valves, torn clothing, linoleum covered decks forward, asbestos lagged piping, etc. We all owe everything we have learned as a group to those brave men of WWII.
There is a submarine memorial in Oklahoma (of all places, also my home state) where the USS Batfish SS310 is on display. The ship needs help, it is in peril of decay and has accidentally been floated by floods on more than one occasion. Every year that passes there is less interest in her. Batfish is the champion submarine killer of all time, a record that has stood since 1945
@Kirk Wolfe What is a statean?
@@chillybinbob I think it's a weird quirk, calling the USN the "Statean" Navy instead of the US or American Navy.
@@jimmyseaver3647 I think it is odd indeed. Perhaps insulting. Personally, I served on Submarines in the United States Navy.
Americans were jacks of all trades master of none, because they were English and German and French and Italian, etc. They had among them the best aspects of the other great powers. Increasingly though they're not able to figure out things like indoor plumbing and electricity
@@solutionless123 lmao what? What country are you from? Don't tell me it's one where there isn't air conditioning or tanks of water full of dead animals in a homes attic
“We were using Mk 14 torpedoes and having trouble with them”
That’s a Royal Navy-caliber understatement
Also called “being British”.
In 'Merican, "Those F**kin' Mark 14s!"
I think the 18 month delay in fixing the Mk-14 torpedos was deliberate.
@@blankblank9042 I think the war department wanted to send our sub boys to sea with wooden submarines, to build character, but they figured that wouldn't go over too well so they at least tin coated them.
In case anyone happened to miss the video on the Mk 14, "Failure is Like Onions." czcams.com/video/eQ5Ru7Zu_1I/video.html
“… the collection of malfunctions that was loosely termed the Argonaut.” 🤣🤣🤣
For those on eternal patrol, thanks for bringing this part of the Pacific War to light. 👏👏
A classic "Drach". Brilliant as ever.
Reminds me of an old saying that a Chinook Helo was really "a collection of parts flying in a sloppy formation".
The Eternal Patrol Memorial at Pearl overshadowed the other displays by a long shot.
@@robertslugg8361 I
that story about a Mark 14 torpedo becoming a life raft for a Japanese sailor made my day
The Mark 14 torpedo problems caused major problems in the US Navy submarine service for decades after WWII. Many submarine captains from then on would personally cut the wiring inside the new US Navy torpedoes to ensure only impact would work. This was an example of the legacy of this complete FUBAR as long as the US Navy submarine personnel remained in the Navy. As a NAVSEA employee of 41 years (BuORD and BuSHIPS's successor after WWII), this kind of thing was NEVER repeated and ship problems were now top priority and "tomorrow you will be far away fixing a ship problem" -- happened to me twice -- became SOP.
The information about the effectiveness (or lack thereof) of Japanese depth charges came from US Congressman Andrew J May after a junket to the Pacific where he learned that American subs where surviving depth charging because the enemy were setting there fuses too shallow and he promptly announced to the world upon his return the actual operating depth of US submarines. Admiral Lockwood later stated that that carelessness by May cost the US 10 submarines and 800 crew and stated that Congressman May would be pleased to know that the Japanese were setting them deeper now.
Shades of the Falklands War when the War correspondents told that the Argentine pilots were dropping bombs that didn't have time to activate before hitting their targets
This was a big blunder. In all fairness, there is a lesson for all of us. People everywhere want answers, transparency, and to feel good about the situation. One can look at the situation from the standpoint of a worried mother, a congressman who is representative of the people, and a newspaper man who needs a story. What to report, which stories to tell, and how to keep the public involved in the war effort are difficult things. Congressmen, are almost always extroverts, and are dealing with a lot of people. If you are dealing with a lot of people time to think about each interaction is limited. How can you get a good news story and not reveal anything useful to the enemy? Well most of those stories could be about one simple worker, among hundreds, who used a well known practice, to repeat a well known procedure. That said, it was a big blunder indeed. Loose lips... sink ships!
Came for the Mk14 witticisms, was not disappointed.
Heh heh!
"He also would not hear ANYTHING against the Mark 14 torpedo. Despite that more than every torpedo expended in the entire history of the United States history, the Mark 14 was achieving basically nothing."
The Mark 14 is a deep discussion, and not at all attractive in any field - I heard this from a reliable contact.
@@shannonrhoads7099 exactly what the Mk14 didn't have ... reliable contacts!
33:00 To be fair, Nautilus provided a most unexpected critical role in the battle, by drawing off the IJN destroyer Arashi, the latter's race to catch up with the carriers gave the Enterprise Dive bombers a most welcome beacon to home in on their targets.
As someone with large amounts of experience in modded Silent Hunter 4 I can say that calling the MK14 torpedo frustrating and irritating is the biggest understatement of the war.
Those brave men and their video games!
Torpedo was a dud, sir!
The Leaders at Bu Ord should have been tried as traitors and executed. They have hurt the war effort more than the enemy!
@@13stalag13 Better than that they should have been launched out of their own torpedo tubes.
"Failure is Like Onions..." czcams.com/video/eQ5Ru7Zu_1I/video.html
It's worth mentioning Representative Andrew May in the bit regarding the article on the settings of Japanese depth charges. May was the one who leaked this information to the press upon returning from a tour of bases in the Pacific.
An estimated 10 submarines and 800 sailors were lost because of the corrections the Japanese made to their depth charges. Admiral Charles Lockwood reportedly said, "I hear Congressman May said the Jap depth charges are not set deep enough. He would be pleased to know that the Japs set them deeper now."
Andrew May was also a war-profiteer associated with a company that made faulty mortar fuses which detonated prematurely, killing 38 servicemen over the course of the war. He had bribery charges brought against him and was convicted in federal court in 1947.
He was pretty much an all around stand up guy.
Should have been made a bend over guy.
May is the reason you don't send politicians to a war front. They can't keep their mouth shut.
The entirety of America are war profiteers so a rather pointless inclusion on his list of charges
And he only served 9 months. And was pardoned by Truman. Justice at its finest...
@@touyube2470 It's a bit different when you use personal political connections to leverage defense contracts to business partners with no experience in the industry, then cut corners in production in order to increase profits, resulting in your final product exploding in the faces of the soldiers using them. Which is what May did.
Also, I'm not sure exactly how you define "war profiteer," and I'm not sure how "the entirety of America" is counted as such while the other major powers are not. The entire industrial bases of all the major participants were shifted to war production, not just America, and as far as I'm aware, Supermarine was not just giving away their airplanes for nothing. But if we dismiss anyone who makes weapons during wartime as a war profiteer, then the only ones who aren't would be the ones who send their soldiers into battle with nothing but their dicks in their hands.
I was fortunate enough as a teenager to get a ride on USS Chivo (SS-341), a Balao-class submarine. My father was a Chief on the boat and the Navy actually allowed dependents to go for "joy" rides out of the New London Navy Base on occasion. I pretty much sat in the galley, which was amazingly small, two tables, two foot square, with checkers and backgammon boards laminated into them. I knew we submerged because I could feel the boat tilt and then tilt the other way when we surfaced. This would have been mid 60's. The Chivo never saw action as hostilities ended while she was preparing for her first war patrol. Prior to serving on the Chivo The old man was on nuclear boats, he ended up on a nuke boat that he didn't like the captain, asked to be transferred, and the captain ...knowing why, transferred him to the Chivo as "punishment". It ended up being his favorite boat! Winning...
When your commanding officer might as well be a traitor, because that is more believable than the Mk14 being effective and lethal to enemy ships.
Lol
He probably later went on to have a hand in the design of the Ford Expolder, err Pinto.
33:14
I think the greatest contribution of Nautilus during Midway was getting a ship dettached to pursue her which will later provide some excelent guidance for some US bombers
Surprising that the Nautilus's essential contribution to the Battle of Midway isn't given more emphasis. McClusky's group of dive bombers probably wouldn't have located the Japanese fleet except for the destroyer detached to attack her. It mattered not at all that her torpedos didn't detonate ogainst the Kaga.
Submarine operations and history during WW2 outside of U-Boats doesn't get nearly enough attention. An incredible theatre of the pacific war, thanks for this.
Anon, check out the series "Hell Below", I think you would like it.
I agree with your observation.
I've taken to building Submarines from plastic, kits. So far, U-Boat models predominates. Where as those boats of two of the allied navies, RN & USN much less so. Yet, still more than I can complete before the Monkey Pox hits our small corner of the planet.
The book thunder below is amazing
It is about the USS Barb
Thankfully, my father got into the war 1943 when they had working torpedoes (Pacific fleet). He survived being on the Thresher, Tuna and the Roncador. The reason that the U-boats get more attention is probably because a higher percentage of them died. Almost 1 in 4 of the American submariners were lost, as opposed to their 3 out of 4.
@@davidvalensi8616 I dont really think the situation is comparable in the sense you want it to be. The german subs were consistently better than their counterparts and even in '45 they developed technology way ahead of the allies. The reason why its interesting from a german perspective is because they had such an easy ride at first, but lost due to circumstances out of their control.
It just shows how impressive the dutch submarines wher in the pacific war . first 53 days 53 ships sunk
Yup, really hoping Drach covers them in detail maybe with the few British subs in the area as well
@@kurgisempyrion6125 One of the issues the UK had was that they had designed and built a number of larger submarines, like the US, for Pacific use but the exigencies of the early part of the war had forced them to be used in areas where their size was a disadvantage like the Med and Kattegat, a number were lost so that there weren't the numbers required out in the far east when the war kicked off there.
@@dogsnads5634 Yes I know - just want to read/listen to a detailed account of the few they had in the area and especially the Dutch subs which are often overlooked by American-centric views of the Pacific conflict
Do you have any sources in English?
@@kurgisempyrion6125 Their newest subs pioneered the 'schnorchel' - the O.16, O.19 minelayers, and the O.25 classes.
Unfortunately, the RN seriously panned the schnorkels, and removed most of them from Dutch subs in their jurisdiction.
In my work of creating supplements for the Admiralty Trilogy game system, I included full writeups on the Dutch subs and their torpedo types. Late in the war, they switched to the GB Mk VIII, but their fire control systems were far superior to the British subs.
That's a brilliant topic, looking forward to hear a continuation
Great video, as always. I love how he manages to inject humor into such a dry subject.
I'm amazed only 320k subscribers. Don't effect me, but content so solid his delivery deserves more. Hope does well enough with the add money to be worth keeping them rolling out
@@ericluffy7970 I suspect folks are so turned off by history subjects in schools, that they never go back to learn any on their own. Nearly the case for myself. I accidentally started reading history analyses and original sources in my 20s, and was instantly hooked. Possibly originated with my reading of The Cruel Sea at about 17 yr of age. So long ago, wow.
Brilliant topic by a brilliant poster.
Topic: Operation Starvation: the aerial B-29 mining of Japan’s inland seas during 1945. It was astonishingly effective yet is seldom talked about.
Its like anything the germans did in the atlantic the US was doing in the pacific
@@AsbestosMuffins Big difference, the Germans could only place few mines while we placed thousands
It was said that an agile fellow could hop across the sea dry-shod from Honshu to Korea, jumping from sea-mine to sea-mine by the time the war ended.
The Japanese Maritime Self-Defence Force (JMSDF) started after the war as a minesweeper operation. Not all the wooden ships built for the job made it back home. The JMSDF museum in Kure, just across the street from the Yamato museum, has a lot of good information about the minesweeping operations that had to be carried out so the fishing fleets could sail to feed the starving population without blowing up too often.
@@robertsneddon731 "without blowing up too often."
Just upon occasion.
@@scottgiles7546 Reading the JMSDF museum exhibits I rather got the impression that some post-war mine clearance operations were literally suicide missions with the crews willing to get killed to clear the mines.
The wreck of one of the S-Class submarines that was stationed at Manilla at the start of war, today lies off of Imperial Beach; which is South of San Diego California, just North of the Mexican border. She survived six war patrols before being sent back to the U.S. shortly before the end of 1942. She was going to used for aerial bombing practice in 1945 but sank on her own. In the 1950's she was refloated and going to be sold for scrap, but broke her tow cable and sank again. I learned a great deal about this vessel while preparing to dive the wreck over 25 years ago.
The S-37 suffered nearly as many mechanical breakdowns as the S-36; including a non-stop oil leak which caused the S-37's commander to sometimes head in one direction then double back; in an attempt to create a false trail in case a Japanese scout plane or warship spotted the oil slick. Her Mark 10 torpedoes also had the depressing tendency to sink before they reached their intended targets. The S-37 was laid down in 1918 and launched the following year, which meant that many of her crew were younger than the submarine they served aboard. The S-37 did have at least two successes, sinking the Kagero class destroyer Natsushio in February 1942. She also sank the 2,700 ton transport Tenzan Maru and is thought to have damaged another destroyer off Savo Island.
If you want to know what it was like to be inside one those non-airconditioned submarines under normal operating conditions, here is a description taken from the personal journal of a junior officer who served aboard the S-37:
"The bunks beyond the wardroom are filled with torrid, skivy clad bodies, the sweat running off the white, rash blistered skin in small rivulets. Metal fans are whirring everywhere overhead, and at the end of the bunks, close to my ear, I am playing cribbage with the skipper, mainly because I don’t like to wallow in a sweat soaked bunk most of the day. I have my elbows on the table near the edge and I hold my cards with my arms at a slight angle so the sweat will stream down my bare arms, without soaking the pile of cards in the center. Overhead is a fine net of gauze to catch the wayward cockroaches, which prowl across the top of the wardroom and occasionally fall straight down. They live in the cork insulation, which lines the inside of the submarine itself. We’ve killed over sixteen million cockroaches in one compartment alone. The deck in the control room is littered with towels, used to sponge up the water dripping off the men and the submarine itself. The food is routine, something canned. The dehydrated potatoes, powdered onions, and reconstituted carrots have the same general taste; like sawdust."
(Source: www.cawreckdivers.org/Wrecks/S37.htm )
That sub wasn't going to sink under any conditions than her own lmao
". . . the collection of malfunctions that was loosely termed, the Argonaut."
Beautiful.
Thank you for another great video, Drach.
“One of the sailors caught an engineer eyeing up the bedsheets wondering how many they need to improvise a sail” loved that
Everybody's gangsta until the sub's torpedoes start becoming reliable
I was looking at how many subs the US lost in WW2. I think it was ~52 and they had ~230 at the end of the war. Now compare to u-boats as they were basically used for the same thing.....
One had a good time at the beginning of the war, the other hand a good time at the end of it. The reason why the US subs stopped having a good time was because they ran out of targets, not because the enemies adapted.
@@cp1cupcake
Do note that the US was up against opposition whose glaring weak point was ASW and submarine warfare. If they were facing an enemy like the RN I’d expect them to face much higher sub losses.
@@bkjeong4302 For sure. I haven't look into it, but I'd expect the Royal Navy had something similar to the US.
@@cp1cupcake the Royal Navy were expert sub hunters. Look into the career of Commander Walker. I have no idea why his story was not made into a movie instead of that BS with Tom Hanks a few years ago. Made me want to vomit.
Qualified Submarines in 2011 aboard SSN725. Then went to build the Mk48 ADCAP at Yorktown Weapons Station for Shore Duty. These lessons of the Mk14 are still taught and heeded today in the SUBFOR. It is institutional memory at this point. If the torpedo doesn't work, you or your friends are dead. Did a lot of rework at the facility to be absolutely certain I turned my wrenches correctly and fix any failures.
Love the vids, you keep making, I'll keep watching!
Hello, from Ocean View, Norfolk. My Grandfather also qualified subs in the 80s and 90s then went to work for JTASK.
The sad thing for the United States military was that it wasn't just the mark 14 that had problems. The torpedo that armed the devastator and the Avenger wasn't worth the Philippines either. It took major rework and I believe it was Caltech to get that one working and then it was a fortunate combination of bubblegum and bailing wire to do it.
The MK48 was a godsend to Submarines. It, as you know, is updated fairly often. I remember at AUTEC, on the 658, our first experience with ADCAP led to our admiration as the torpedo started to detect the towed targets as soon as the outer door was opened.
I think the ADCAP forced the Navy to create targets that were harder to detect, as our first experience was a very quick 8 for 8. This was the first ADCAP in around 1980? I was still a noob.
@@chillybinbob That's really neat to learn! My two visits to AUTEC (4 each) I went 7/8. And the miss was because an Officer wouldn't listen to SONAR (us).
Ah yes, the Mk 14 Torpedo. Japan's second best torpedo after the Type 93. Loved the inclusion of the English officer's snarky reply to the offer of the Mk 6 Exploder.
The Mk 14 torpedo was designed by Isoroku Yamamoto, when he was over in the United States as a attache 😉
There are probably a number of fairly pristine MK 14 torpedoes littering the western Pacific
No I don't think it was him I think it was the same guys who came up with the original M16 though.
Dark times indeed. When the commander won't allow reality of the situation to be improved upon because it would make him look bad......
Praise the angry king and his contribution to setting a fire over at the beauro of ordinance.
We through stories and documentary like this one to remember the mistakes of the past. Hopefully some of the people with influence pay attention.
The whole mark 14 bit is simply embarrassing ( and worse). The fact that the Submarine Admiral suppressed captains and crews trying to fix the issue is simply criminal.
I would like to hear exactly what Admiral King wrote and said to the Bureau of Ordinance that lit a fire underneath them. All I can say is that it's a miracle the replacement Pacific theatre submarine commander had a direct, open line to Emperor King. I could imagine King reading all of the reports from sub skippers along with studying diagrams of the Mark 14 and then proclaiming himself the world's foremost expert in it's failings. Definitely the right man in the right place at the right time fighting bureaucracy in it's worst form.
At 62 years, it's with regret to inform you, most 'people with influence', know too much and have too little time, to be bothered by observations of those below them.
@@gfodale I know but every once in awhile miracles do happen.... But most of the time observations from below only penetrate the minds of those with influence with... Reality smashing them in the face with what's actually going on.
Sadly reality on the ground doesn't penetrate into the bubble near often enough. In some places..... Well China is a good current example.
He really should've been booted from the navy.
My Uncle was on the S-44 when she was in the vicinity of North Kurils in 1943. His name was Dale R. Thompson and he was a Motor Machinist's Mate 2. On the night of 7 October, the S-44 made radar contact with a "small merchantman" and closed in for a surface attack. Several hundred yards from the target, her deck gun fired and was answered by a salvo. The "small merchantman" was a destroyer. The order to dive was given, but S-44 failed to submerge. She took several hits, in the control room, in the forward battery room, and elsewhere. The Captain gave the order to abandon ship. Eight men got out, but only two survived and were repatriated after the Japanese surrendered and the war was over. My Uncle was not one of the survivors.
I served in the US Army for ten years because it was the right thing to do...and also because every single one of my Uncles (and my Father) served our country in WW2, Korea and Vietnam. Some things in this life can be horrible...like war. But, when our loved ones are the target, who will stand up for them? I was taught there are some things one just has to do...and doing nothing is not an option. I am proud of every US serviceperson who has "done their time." I mourn for those who paid dearly.
A toast to those who gave all, a toast to those who came home, shaken but not wavered
Esh just goes to show how brave and dedicated these men were. To be ordered into battle knowing your boat and almost useless weapons arent up for the task takes some serious intestinal fortitude that I really think todays generations (mine included) would lack! Thank you gentlemen for your service!
This is part of why I am so pro defense spending. It saves our troops lives they come home.
Thanks for this video, Drach. As a US Navy submariner, this topic is very near to my heart. Also, let us raise a toast to those on Eternal Patrol.
"However the Pacific was big. Douglas Adams-style big"
I KNEW that Drach was a HHGTTG Fan.
It's a shame that yanks are acronym fans
As big of a history buff as I am, as much as I've read of the Silent Service in WWII, I still cannot comprehend the giant brass balls it took to go to sea in a small steel pipe whose crews knew they were going to see depth charges and their torps were crap. God bless those sailors; those who are still on patrol, those who survived and are no longer with us, and the very few who remain to speak of it in those rare moments when it might seem okay to remember and speak up. I only wish more of them would have put their stories to print.
Always sad that while Dad was alive he never told any stories, but 1. Best friends Dad was airborne in WW2, served in Korea and Vietnam...as an MD: deceased now wish he had written his autobiography...the few stories Ian told me wish he had... Colonel potter is real
Captains: The torpedoes suck!
BuOrd: *He's delusional, take him to the infirmary!*
Nice! This is a Dyatlov reference right?
This is so little talked about. I love that Drach is covering it.
I'm fully expecting to be 90 years old and seeing a video upload to this channel, about some obscure Naval fact that hasn't been covered yet, despite uploading 3 videos a week for over 50 years because of course he did.
@@TheEDFLegacy He's probably creating a secret cache of videos in order to have generations experience a new Drach video.
I always learn something new from Drach, even,as in this case, on a topic I have studied thoroughly. Two very minor corrections: 1. Andrew Jackson May opened his big mouth about the Japanese depth charge settings in June of 1943, not 1942. He also later was convicted of war profiteering. 2. US Submarine crews call themselves sub-ma-REE-ners. I'm a sub-ma-REE-ner's daughter.
Sadly, as a former submariner, I've just found it sometimes easier to live with the mispronunciation, especially in media. Face to face, though, you bet there's going to be corrections.
Drachinifel is British, so I'd bet the difference in pronunciation stems from that.
Also, just read up on Andrew J. May. Holy shit, what an idiot - and a great asshole to boot. I can't believe he only served 9 months in prison, and that was for his war profiteering - *not* for disclosing confidential information. And he was *pardoned* ... I mean, wtf.
@@mnxs Yep, it in British English you usually put the stress on the first syllable while in American English you tend to put it on the second. Eg compare the pronunciation of "debris" (a French word which Americans pronounce the French way).
@@kenoliver8913 Huh, that's really interesting, I didn't know that. Or rather, I suspect its one of those things where I could tell the difference from a hunch, but not really knowing why. Thanks!
My Ex-Wife's father served on a boomer in the late 70's - 1980's. He said, they always called themselves "Sub-ma-REE-ner's" , like you said, and when someone pronounced it "Sub-mar-i-ner" , they just thought that term meant they were a really lousy sailor.
There are those who might suggest that one of the failings of that Supreme Commander of Self-Promotion known more popularly as Dugout Doug was in allowing the greater portion of the pre-war U.S. torpedo stock to be lost at Cavite, but in retrospect that might have been one of his greatest unheralded contributions to the Allied war effort.
Acruallt, the pre-war hand-made torpedoes were more reliable than the earlier wartime mass-produced ones.
Actually, it compounded the issue, as many those were perfectly serviceable Mk 10s, which BuOrd hadn't seen fit to 'improve'.
@@shannonrhoads7099 You mean BuOrd
@@danielgregg2530 Fixed! Unlike an actual BuOrd thing. XD
My godmother was a nurse stationed in the Philippines after I shall return. He's living in a mansion, eating off the regimental china and the troops are living in pup tents and eating cold C & K rations.
The 3rd front was fought against our own admirals
For those interested, the USS Cavalla, a Gato class sub, is a museam ship at Seawolf Park in Galveston; Texas.
Cavalla holds the honor of sinking the Shoukaku iirc
@@sirboomsalot4902 The History Guy did a video on her. Worth the watch.
Visited her a few weeks ago. It was really cool!
@@wdavis6814 We have the Pampanito on display at Fishermen's Wharf.
@@sirboomsalot4902 her first war patrol. She was also commissioned on February 29th uirc
US Submarines in my opinion are one of the most underrated parts of the pacific war, if you get the time I would highly recommend visiting Uss Bowfin in pearl harbor today, and she also deserves a video as she has an interesting wartime career thanks for all your work Drachinifel
It doesn't get the attention it deserves, but I was certainly aware of it. They really crippled the Japanese war effort in a far more serious way than German subs affected the British effort. The lack of radar and ASW doctrine within the IJN certainly helped.
If you don't wish to fly to Hawaii, there is the USS Drum in Mobile, AL (in great shape) and the USS Batfish in Muskogee, OK (not as much).
And the Cavalla in Galveston, Tx
Pomponito in San Francisco but the homeless are probably squatting in it…
One of my patients served (post war) alongside a fellah who was a veteran of the USS Barb - and was a part of the landing party that blew up a Japanese train during WWII! If you've never read it, "Thunder Below" - the war time exploits of Medal of Honor recipient Commander (later Admiral) Eugene "Lucky" Fluckey is HIGHLY recommended!
I agree it’s an amazing book
Yes! Great book!
No discussion of this period is complete without mention of USS Sailfish and Morton Mumma.
A new Drach video, ending this year on a high note.
I recommend the old black and white series 'The Silent Service' hosted by then retired Tommy Dykers-a decorated WW2 USN sub skipper who produced the series. Each episode covers different crews, subs, and sometimes odd events the crews and skippers went through with Dykers interviewing a member of the actual crew the episode covered.
Binged watched the entire series. Many ultimately famous TV actors appeared in leading and minor roles.
@@Contrafactum The one that stuck out most to me was Deforest Kelly. My favorite episode was the one where the chief by the name of Archer crawled up a 14" tube to fix a leaking seal that was seriously affecting the sub's performance. It was topped off by Dyker's interview at the end with the actual Chief Archer and Dyker revealing that he in fact was the sub's skipper during the event with a smile. Nice reveal at the end.
Yes, I've seen that one twice. Among several others, I remember Jack Lord, Leonard Nimoy and Bob Denver in a brief but effective scene.
@@Contrafactum Can't think of the actor's name-I think he played Fred Rutherford, Lumpy's dad on 'Leave It To Beaver' and he was also on 'The Dick Van Dyke Show'. He played the sub pharmacist that had to do an emergency appendectomy. The sailor survived but was later killed by a Mark 14 that circled back and hit them. Irony at it's worst. I think the pharmacist didn't survive the war either.
That would be Richard Deacon, another versatile character actor.
A number people were promoted for involvement on the "successful" Mark 14 development effort, leading to a lot of of resistance to the reports of dismal performance. People who were praised for cost effective reductions in development testing were exposed by actual war time performance. This was a part of the drive to extensive testing that is now done on Military programs in the US.
And alot of that testing is fugded
@@demonprinces17 Not Mention Ignoring Albert Einstein's suggestions for How to fix the Contact detonator..
@@MartinCHorowitz what was his suggestion?
Actually..the Mk 14 was never test fired. Not once. How that was covered up is beyond me.
@@louisavondart9178 There is a methods known as qualification by analysis and qualification by Simulation, but neither would appropriate for a new torpedo now. Back then testing and acceptance weren't as wells standardized, and gave way too much leeway.
Big thanks to the Author for making this huge story a series …. Perhaps Sub Trek….. Wrath Of King …
I've been fascinated with this subject since a small child playing Silent Service on the C64 - it got me into history, and due to the importance of technology, engineering! Looking forward to this 😉
I am in utter awe of your knowledge regarding older naval vessels. Thank you for your frequency of quality posts. Fantastic stuff, truly.
The small fuel lighter mentioned at 36 min was in fact the MV Ondina a Royal Dutch Tanker of 9070 Tonne. The ship had been damaged in an action with two Japanese Merchant Cruisers the Aikoku Maru and Hokoku Maru. The MV Ondina with assistance from the HMIS Bengal had sunk the Hokoku Maru was hit by a 4 inch shell from the MV Ondina causing the Long Lance Torpedo's to explode and eventually sink the ship. The Aikoku Maru shelled the MV Ondina causing fires to break out, The crew abandoned the tanker in lifeboats and were machine gunned by the Japanese. The HMIS Bengal having used all its shells sailed off. Aikoku Maru rescued the crew from the sunk sister Hokoku Maru and also sailed away.
The survivors from the MV Ondina reboarded the tanker, put out the fires and sailed to Fremantle.
The damaged MV Ondina could not be repaired but was used by Operation Potshot at Exmouth as a fuel depot for the submarines.
Submarine love especially the US submarines is so unappreciated and under talked about thanks for covering this amazing part of history.
Mark 14s ladies and gents. The killer torpedo that killed their own crews rather than the enemy.
The only use is for the submariners to beat up the Bureau of Ordinance pukes who thought the Mark 14 was perfect.
by both frustrations and the malfunction
@@ramal5708
G7e T5 was the German homing torpedo. Mark-14 had no homing ability, it could be set to attack in a specific direction while maneuvering, it could change its course underwater through a pre-planned attack.
It's not quite like you say, Herr Goebbels. But nice try at propaganda.
There was a bastard navy admiral with clout that stubbornly pushed that faulty torpedo …
Drach: Lahaina Lah - high -nah Nice place to visit.
The torpedo struggles are so classic. I will never get enough of the Mark 14s shenanigans.
I have been waiting years for a good cideo of the submarine campaigns in the pacific and am so happy that someone like drach did it and came through. Thank you so much!
Many snippets covered by this video were also immortalised by the movie "Operation Pettycoat".
I just watched that the other day and it is still a funny movie....about a serious subject. The TV series "Silent Service" is a great series and some else noted above.
“Sighted Tanker . . . Sank Truck!!!”
"My, what a beautiful shade...." "Please, lady, I'm trying to eat!"
@@spikespa5208 Marion Ross as Lt. Colfax, before she was Mrs. C on "Happy Days".
A worthy series arc. Thanks for posting and happy years to come.
The effect that the Mark 14 torpedos had on the crews during the first 14 months of the campaign cannot be over emphasized.
Earlier this year I read several books on the subject including "Clear the Bridge" and "Wahoo" by Richard O'Kane, "Undersea Warrior" by Don Keith and "The War Below" by James Scott. All of these books go into detail about how many crews became very demoralized by both the failures of the torpedos and "The Brass's" insistence that the sub skippers MUST be screwing up.
The number of Japanese ships sunk during the early part of the war would probably have been 5 to 10 times greater than what was sunk - sometimes because of shots NOT taken.
One must also wonder what would have been the effect had the German U-boats not also been plagued by faulty torpedoes in the first years of the war. The parallels between the two are fascinating.
@@primmakinsofis614
The Germans actually got their own torpedo troubles sorted out in a matter of months, because the Kriegsmarine high command recognized the problem and took it seriously, unlike BuOrds.
Great Video Drach!
My Great Uncle, a destroyerman, called US subs, "Pig-Boats." This was due to the smell of their sailors.
There is a book titled "Pigboats" It was a very good read.
In late November, 1943, I was on the USS Balao operating in the Java Sea. We encountered a Japanese task force, and sank two carriers, and a Fuso class battleship. The ocean was only 100-200 feet deep and we were killed trying to escape the destroyers…. Anyone else love Silent Hunter 4?
Haven't played it since it came out does it still have 2d sprites for crew?
A wonderful video! The topic is absolutely fascinating, and I really love the way you delivered it. Thank you very much Drach.
Congrats on a VERY well done episode Drach, keep up the great work.
Thanks for the video found it most informative. Can't wait for volume II.
"The Pacific Ocean is big. Really big. You might think that it's a long way down the street to the Chemist, but that's just PEANUTS compared to The Pacific! Listen..."
Douglas Adams : Revised.
I live in Western Australia and some years back one of the local radio stations had a talk back about Fremantle and Perth during WW2, the stories were wild and they were fairdinkum Navy towns back in the day.
There is some town in Australia that fined the US several hundred dollars for a drunken brawl.
Still hasn't been paid!
Many Thanks Drach! My father served at Fremantle on sub optical repair for the time period shown in this vid.
This is a fascinating topic and I really hope we see more thank you for making this
Drach... another outstanding piece of work. Well done.
Please continue this topic Drach. its really interesting stuff!!!
Wonderful (as always), Drach!
The details of the patrols of American S class boats from early in the war are pretty much all the same: We got the boat into suitable shape to begin out patrol but the officers are concerned about the lack of modern instruments. We sighted the enemy and tried to approach but couldn't do so successfully because of poor performance characteristics. We were counter detected and depth charged, breaking half of our equipment. We escaped and managed temporary repairs. We resumed our patrol but then the other half of our equipment broke. There was a measles outbreak. We just managed to return to base.
The hulls we're lined with cork. This thermal and sound insulation. By happy coincidence cockroaches seemed to enjoy living in it. They had to string netting to keep the little darlings from falling into your coffee!
17 of the S-class sank 42 Japanese ships, including the heavy cruiser Kako sunk by S-44, a day after the Battle of Savo Island. She had 5 war patrols but was lost in combat in 1943 (only two crew survived). After that S-boats were gradually withdrawn from front line service, as the Gato's came online. It is amazing that the American submariners were able to do so well in such old and obsolete boats. One reason is, they did not use Mk14's, but had the older Mk10 torpedoes from World War One (their tubes were too short to take the 14's). Although inferior in all specs, they were fairly reliable.
One of my favorite episodes you've done.
For Heaven's sake! - cannot even imagine how that first year must have been frustrating...
Thanks for the Douglas Adams reference Drach.
It does the old heart good.
And prevents Panic ;)
My Uncle was on board the USS Gudgeon (11:05 in the video) during the attack. As a young lad I remember him telling of the aftermath. Bodies floating in the water, fuel oil everywhere, fires still burning. Reprovisioning as quickly as possible to get back out to sea in case there was another attack.
Every time I hear the story of the Mk14 torpedo, I just get more and more pissed off. For bureaucracy to prevail, for *years*, while those men were risking their lives is absolutely unforgivable.
With all of the high technology available to them, imagine what they're up to now.
Drac's naval History knowledge is big, you just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts compared to his naval History knowledge.
It even includes Douglas Adams references.
There's a frood who really knows where his towel is!
"You thought it was a long way down the road to the chemist but that's peanuts to space"
Drach: This video, in combination with your earlier video focusing on the Mark 14, provides a brilliant yet maddening exposé of the criminal incompetence of the Bureau of Ordinance, and the flock of clowns it oozed into the command structure, whose uniforms and ranks they then disgraced. It is indeed fortunate that there were enough honorable people in the USN to offset the shameful lack of integrity in jackballs like Admiral Withers.
Unfortunately, he retired a Rear Admiral in 1946 with his nice cushy military pension intact. He should have faced court martial, as well as charged with murder for the deaths of submariners resulting from his incompetence and corruption.
@@williamrobinson827 Yep...not unlike the vast majority of the miscreants who hold elected office, or the hordes of unelected tyrants (a/k/a bureaucrats) who have the unmitigated temerity to call themselves "public servants". Worse than the criminal abuse of the English language that misnomer entails, they are a nameless horde who perpetually escape any responsibility for the destructive effects of their edicts.
Apologists for Our Great Democratic Institutions (a phrase that must be spoken with suitably hushed reverence) may occasionally admit, "...well, of course the system isn't perfect...", but only as an adjunct to the mandatory "...but it's better than every other kind of system!" ...an assertion to which any dissent is presumed to be heresy. Meanwhile, lives and other properties are diminished or ruined, and there is no accountability.
For my part, I reject the notion that such a system is anywhere close to "as good as it gets". The political state in general fosters, legitimizes, and sanctions irresponsible behavior; I don't like it, but I get that it happens. It's the nature of the beast. Power corrupts, after all. But for cryin' out loud, are we so intellectually lazy and morally bankrupt that we have come to the point of accepting that it's OK to _institutionalize_ irresponsibility?
That's the message I get from the fact that the criminal acts of incompetent political and bureaucratic clowns escape condemnation or even identification, let alone restitution, and they are rewarded with fat security-for-life pensions into the bargain. I don't know how or when we will end it, but I do know that if we don't, eventually it will end us.
In my book, Drach's yeoman work in pointing out such malfeasance makes him a genuine historian, which is a *_true_* public service, of far more value to civilization than toads like Admiral Withers and his ilk will ever contribute to the common good.
Very interested to see how this develops. The US submariners became excellent scavengers and scroungers. Many 5"/25 caliber weapons removed from other ships became favorite deck gun replacements, in addition to anything else they could find that went bang.
Yes!!!! I've been wanting to learn more about this topic for years, but there are precious few videos on CZcams that cover it, really looking forward to this series
Great video and outstanding effort 👍🏻 can’t wait for the next part
ever since I read about it in Thunder Below, the story of Lockwood getting pissed with English continuing Wither's habit of snubbing his captains, and instead circumventing the Bureau of Ordinance entirely and talking to King while also ordering his subs to use contact rather than magnetic is still extremely amusing to me
It can be said that the US Mark 14 torpedo was the most reliable in USN service. It could always be counted on to miss the target.
Well that's one thing it's reliable at lol
This was EXCELLENT!
Thankyou Drac!
Outstanding job on this episode!!! Thanks for the info
I think we can all thoroughly respect the mark 14 torpedo as being one of the best assets the japanese had.
Hooray, a Rum Ration for my birthday! Appreciate it Drach; have a good new year and to more videos in 2022!
Thank you for covering this part of the Pacific War.
USS Sea Dragon and Argonaut...Have to admit those names are much more classic than simply naming the new subs after states.
In the USN, ballistic missile submarines are named after states. Attack submarines are named after cities. Why, you ask? In the words of Admiral Rickover: "Fish don't vote".
Great content, as a cold war veteran aboard the USS Pintado ,I was well aware of the contributions of our for father's
I served on USN nuclear powered submarines with lots of food, water, showers, space, air filtration, etc. The men serving on these things were on a whole other level. Salute!
You must have been a MT. lol
@@danielgregg2530 My MTs were very good.
I'm a sub vet (nuke fast attacks) also a very heavy WWII sub buff. This video is outstanding. Well done, Drach.
Clay Blair would be proud. Waiting for the next edition. Thanks
The mark 14 torpedo was the fore runner of the smart torpedo, it was the polite torpedo it knocked on the hull and asked is there anyone home then like most politicians failed to do anything !!!
Actually most Mark 14s were like political canvassers, who might knock on your door, but in many cases will just walk by and wave at you if you're paying attention, and in nearly every case will tell or do nothing.
Not with me as a submarine commander! 1 million tons of enemy shipping sunk over the course of the war (in Silent Hunter 4, that is).
One of the best games I have ever played, focussing one of the most interesting aspects of WWII. And a poem by Milton read in the intro.
Again, I truly enjoy the approach this podcast uses … reviewing actual reports and after action reports. I keep sharing with my uplink supervision that business (ours in particular) need to start doing periodic versions of after action reports on business operations to evaluate what is working and truly identify what isn’t working … along with how to fix.
Great video. I listen to your lectures as I work on my rc boats.
I got so involved listening to this episode that I lost track of time.
Thanks Drach, I've been waiting for this type of in-depth coverage of the US submarine campaign in ww2. Can't wait for the 2nd part. If anyone is interested in one of the stars of this campaign I would suggest Richard O'Kane's autobiographical book "Clear the Bridge!". It's a great read and if at first it seems a bit dry just remember that he wrote it in the same way that he hunted, cool and deliberate. There were many great sub captains during the war but O'Kane was something special as were the crew of U.S.S Tang. May they never be forgotten.
Edit - I forgot to mention that if you want a more complete perspective of O'Kane, as well as his mentor Dudley "Mush" Morton, then read "Wahoo". Those two basically set the standard for submarine operations that abandoned the outdated pre-war conceptions.
another amazing vid , thanks drach for your efforts
Hope you continue this series, it is another worthwhile wealth of information from you.