Pumped-storage hydropower is the necessary supplementary system to efficiently use and store energy from the sun and wind that is only available at times ...
Ok that means when there is a high wind and power demand is not more so we use the additional power to pump the water from lower to higher reserve in order to get hydroelectricity when there is more demand for electricity but less wind.
Pumped-storage hydropower is the necessary supplementary system to efficiently use and store energy from the sun and wind that is only available at times ...
One overlooked pump storage option is the Salton Sea and Pacific Ocean in California. Pump water out of the Salton Sea at night using geothermal energy and produce hydroelectric power during the day by adding Pacific ocean water to the Salton Sea. The surface area of the Salton sea is 343 square miles. There is a 225 feet of elevation difference between the Salton Sea and Pacific Ocean. They have already bored a hole in the mountain between the imperial valley and San Diego to transport fresh water. They could drill another one for this battery storage idea. Another advantage is you effectively reduce the high salinity of the Salton Sea while improving air quality of the imperial valley by covering the entire dry lake bed.
Way too far from each other. You need the elevation difference to be adjacent to each other for this too work. Nearly all PS plants have their reservoirs within a mile of each other.
@@texasoilfieldsConnect Laguna Salada in Mexico to the Gulf of California by digging a canal. The Laguna Salada is below sea level. Now you are within sixty miles. That is manageable.
yea, it can technically be used when the production massively outways the demand like at 3pm in electricity production is high but there is low demand bc everyone is working. pumped hydro should be easier to implement that grid scale batteries
Spain has also big mountains; does already exists in some places all over the world and in spain since 1972 in the central of “el chorro”, and “central hidroelectrica reversible de bombeo en el rio guadalorce” close to “caminito del rey”.
There are so many thinsg wrong with this idea. Germany excepted at times Europe, doesn't have an excess of renewable generation to fill the upper dam. The amount of generation required to maintain power in times of wind 's low output is far far greater than can be supplied by Norway. Wind and solar cannot run all the power required as their technical characteristics would make the grid too unstable and prone to power cuts. (It is technically inferior power to thermal and hydro generation)In other words 100% renewable is a pipe dream. Pumped storage has been used for years and it's purpose is rapid response to generation shortfall, and of short duration. Batteries can do the same, as in South Australia, they do not provide for renewable intermittency, it's just not feasible.
In the uk the river Avon needs to be covered with solar panels this would one generate power and reduce temperature in the water improving water quality a life saving for fish and plant life there this can be replicated over reservoirs and lakes even helping generate the electricity needed to pump the water from the reservoir before the energy is needed at peak times
Zkuste po bokách nádrže velkokapacitní nádrže na vodu. Zdržíte více vody a z nádob se neodpařuje voda. Může sloužit v dobách kdy bude vody nedostatek a nebo bude nutné větší vyrovnávací příkon do sítě. Muže být s menším spádem ale větší zásobárnou vody pro generaci elektrické energie tak jako pouštění vody do koryt řek v důsledku sucha. Příroda je neúprosná a koryta v dobách sucha mohou mít po 50m vyhloubeny jámy pro ryby. Naučili jsem se to aby nebyli záplavy a upravili koryta na rychlý odtok. Jámy dají možnost rybám k přečkání než se příroda umoudří. A stačí neupravovat sklon koryta jen vyhloubit jámy bagrem. Řeší to i minimální průtok minimum vody se tam dostane takže v jámě voda vždy bude cirkulovat pro ryby.
Cloud seeding can unlimited water storage and unlimited water resources production through air and cloud for hydropower and artificial lake without wind power and solar panels power.
This works on the idea of gravitational potential energy and conservation of energy, but since some energy is converted into sound and heat, I wonder what is the percentage of energy given versus energy used to store the potential energy in the first place. Anyone knows ?
Alex To be honest it's much less than I expected. I just read now out of curiosity that charge efficiency of li-ion batteries is 99% and discharge efficiency about the same. So I guess batteries are better than storing gravitational potential energy. Very, surprising to me. Another question, why so low efficiency ?
Also, if we were able to create portals, that would mean infinite energy ? I mean, just put a portal under the sea, and another on top of a hydro pomp.
Often wondered if head water could be put through 2 or 3 turbines in succession. So the water exiting the 1st turbine then falls and drives a 2nd smaller unit. The water from.that then drives a 3rd even smaller unit to get more power from the same volume of water.l where its energy would be lost once first discharged........just a theory. Not sure if its practical.
couldnt you just build a 2nd reservoir/buffer at any given dam allowing you to significantly increase output at night when needed and decrease possibly down to 0 or negative(pump it back up during day) to act as a battery for solar? the buffer reservoir could then be emptied at a rate to keep the river viable for natural life instead of a torrent every night and dry every day. for how much energy you could store doing this it seems it could compete with battery tech, perhaps when energy during peak solar hours is in the negative cents/kwh and energy at night 20...
They don't compete much, battery tech is very different: -can be shipped and quick to install, hydro is location dependant and takes years -very small, hydro storage is measured in kilometres -instant frequency control, hydro is a blunt tool -politically correct, hydro projects generate environmental protests -about double the price of hydro -not actually used much, 99% of grid storage is hydro Where I live the reservoirs fill during spring thaw so extra in storage is sold before May, where batteries typically store four hours of power.
Hydro is a way of the past. In california pgnes helms pumped storage only makes sense because they used to receive cheap power from diablo canyon nuclear energy to pump water back up the hill at night. Diablo canyon is being shutdown over environmental/political reasons. Helms pumped storage generates just over 1 million kilowatt hours at full capacity, enough energy to power most of oakland or fresno, until the upper reservoir runs out of water.
Mustang energy is always conserved, this is in fact a very efficient way to store energy much like how you can turn (some) electric motors manually to generate power you can turn the turbine one way to generate and the other way to pump (because it is attached to an electric motor of sorts) some energy is always lost from the system by forces like friction between the motors that creates heat and is the. Radiated out and this is what would be called an "inefficiency"
+miiiikku This solution is for long term storage (for example, over winter when there is no sun for photovoltics, or over summer when there is little wind). The storage capacity is limited by the size of the reservoir, and the storage life is MUCH better than battery. Battery storage is not good enough to store large amounts of energy for long periods of time.
the problem is geography, and they're nationally owned....you could easily upgrade the output capacity and run them flat out during peak hours and cut back alot at min hours, same amount of water would still leave/hr....just not much incentive
You generate electricity at a cheaper rate from renewable sources like solar, wind. That power can be used for pumping water back for reproduction of electric energy from hydro unit. However, the concern much power will be wasted feeding back the water to altitude for reproduction. If the overall Hybrid project's Plant Load Factor is increased then we are talking a sense here.
Wind energy in Europe rapidly increased and ran into curtailment where potential power was lost. Norway using undersea cables to buy and sell electricity was the solution to curtailment. If they manage to store any power that is a net gain, there is zero waste.
Why not consider Switzerland first for the exact same purpose? Geographically Switzerland would be a much more energy and cost efficient location, contrary to Norway. In other words: Least energy lost if shortest path travelled - and we're neutral!
It would be great to combine South European solar power potential with the storage hydro capacity of Alpine countries. Basically energy stability for everybody.
you wish to make a difference?? Hydro electricity The Frozen technology An open letter to the world By Simon Bowman Australia Since the beginning the growth of hydro science has been slow and we have made very little forward movement in the past 40 years. The ideas that might make it leap forward with more efficient use of the water are stifled by education being thought of as immovable . What was wrong yesterday will be wrong forever and new tech can't get around a problem. This is not a problem solving mind set Australia has forced many an idea to leave this country to grow just because we have an issue with new ideas A classic example was Metal Storm a new type of fire arm that had no magazine and no brass cartridges to hold the propellent. all the bullets are held in the barrel and with this configuration the barrels can be stacked this gives it a rate of fire unmatched anywhere It had to leave Australia to become a product or stay and die. This I fear is the same story about to happen with the hydroelectric field For the past two years RDP Marine Australia has been working on a system that can be retro fitted to all dams with tailraces longer than the turbine hall needs so it has to deal with a backpressure higher than is ideal creating a loss that can now be recovered At this point it should also be noted that the inventor asks where is it written that water storage dams can’t make hydro power to ? So is this inventor saying “This is the answer to all ur power needs?” No of course not but like all good things it is a part of a solution it will fill the gap for base load green power Lets not forget at the location where these units will be fitted has most of the infrastructure already in place to build the system NOW TO THE ISSUES There are three main issues right of the top that are the most commonly raised as why it will not happen So lets stomp on them straight off 1, fit an item into the tailrace and backpressure will rise in the turbines No this is not true as a this system if done right it can be fitted to be like a tuned exhaust for a car 2, There will be to little back pressure so RPM will not be constant Again No if the system is correctly fitted this to is a dead issue 3, Dissolved gasses that are held in suspension This is a minor issue and most chief engineers are well capable to work with this 4, NOW this one can be a deal-breaker it is to do with a what if question. So what if the new set of turbines go down or just one ? Well if one or all freeze up the main turbine hall will be unaffected and no issues flowing up hill These four issues are the most common reasons I am told No It is this closed thinking (knee jerk response) to a new idea from the same family of being blinded by their education that stifles the industry moving forward The one question I have no answer to is time How long to install? How long to service the new turbines? To service time i still don't know but the system is set to allow a swap out setup so actual down time for that turbine slot is less than two hours and the rest of the system remains running during the swap How much will it cost? I can guess only the price but the price is not so high as to be to costly Whats its life span? Well with servicing I can see it giving service for the life of the dam NOW the big question Money!! this is a fluid issue shall we say the rate changes and i have stated previously money values but the income is in two parts the improved tailrace efficiency and the second bank of turbines should be close to 10% extra income The one main issue I find so wrong is the time line needed from this point to the world seeing a working unit. The tech is there to make it The skills are available to hire The market is in need of this item But the price will rise with demand as the population is getting bigger but the book keepers are happy to see it remain as a rare item with a limited output that pushes up the price The first adopters have always been the biggest winners I wonder in this area if it will be the big four or will a player from left field run on and wipe the floor with the rest standing with their hands in their pockets confused as to what just happened Well, I hope this has given you food for thought and made you pause your thinking and look into what I have said I do not expect you to just except what I have stated as fact nor do I know it all so I can learn a new thing to. Please pass this around let the open minded look it over and pass judgment after all the driver in the end is the need and the ability to see what is needed down the road is the saving grace of the human species to plan ahead If you think i have missed a point or you have questions please comment i will respond well within 24hr and as i have said many times i don't know it all and you never stop learning
Great to see wind backed up with hydro instead of the more common natural gas.
Pumped-storage hydropower is the necessary supplementary system to efficiently use and store energy from the sun and wind that is only available at times ...
Ok that means when there is a high wind and power demand is not more so we use the additional power to pump the water from lower to higher reserve in order to get hydroelectricity when there is more demand for electricity but less wind.
Pumped-storage hydropower is the necessary supplementary system to efficiently use and store energy from the sun and wind that is only available at times ...
One overlooked pump storage option is the Salton Sea and Pacific Ocean in California. Pump water out of the Salton Sea at night using geothermal energy and produce hydroelectric power during the day by adding Pacific ocean water to the Salton Sea. The surface area of the Salton sea is 343 square miles. There is a 225 feet of elevation difference between the Salton Sea and Pacific Ocean. They have already bored a hole in the mountain between the imperial valley and San Diego to transport fresh water. They could drill another one for this battery storage idea. Another advantage is you effectively reduce the high salinity of the Salton Sea while improving air quality of the imperial valley by covering the entire dry lake bed.
Way too far from each other. You need the elevation difference to be adjacent to each other for this too work. Nearly all PS plants have their reservoirs within a mile of each other.
@@texasoilfieldsConnect Laguna Salada in Mexico to the Gulf of California by digging a canal. The Laguna Salada is below sea level. Now you are within sixty miles. That is manageable.
@@felixyusupov7299 60 miles for pumped storage? Good luck financing that one
The best idea ever in renewable!!
yea, it can technically be used when the production massively outways the demand like at 3pm in electricity production is high but there is low demand bc everyone is working. pumped hydro should be easier to implement that grid scale batteries
Spain has also big mountains; does already exists in some places all over the world and in spain since 1972 in the central of “el chorro”, and “central hidroelectrica reversible de bombeo en el rio guadalorce” close to “caminito del rey”.
There are so many thinsg wrong with this idea.
Germany excepted at times Europe, doesn't have an excess of renewable generation to fill the upper dam.
The amount of generation required to maintain power in times of wind 's low output is far far greater than can be supplied by Norway.
Wind and solar cannot run all the power required as their technical characteristics would make the grid too unstable and prone to power cuts. (It is technically inferior power to thermal and hydro generation)In other words 100% renewable is a pipe dream.
Pumped storage has been used for years and it's purpose is rapid response to generation shortfall, and of short duration. Batteries can do the same, as in South Australia, they do not provide for renewable intermittency, it's just not feasible.
What happend to Frances nuke generators?
Biodiesel generator powered large scale AWG through air was enough to supply unlimited water storage for hydro power and artificial lake.
Great video, thanks.
In the uk the river Avon needs to be covered with solar panels this would one generate power and reduce temperature in the water improving water quality a life saving for fish and plant life there this can be replicated over reservoirs and lakes even helping generate the electricity needed to pump the water from the reservoir before the energy is needed at peak times
Maybe make towers over the ocean (or floating towers) and use gigantic buckets full of seawater as gravity batteries.
Is that the same pump to deliver water to higher ground and to generate power?
Zkuste po bokách nádrže velkokapacitní nádrže na vodu. Zdržíte více vody a z nádob se neodpařuje voda. Může sloužit v dobách kdy bude vody nedostatek a nebo bude nutné větší vyrovnávací příkon do sítě. Muže být s menším spádem ale větší zásobárnou vody pro generaci elektrické energie tak jako pouštění vody do koryt řek v důsledku sucha. Příroda je neúprosná a koryta v dobách sucha mohou mít po 50m vyhloubeny jámy pro ryby. Naučili jsem se to aby nebyli záplavy a upravili koryta na rychlý odtok. Jámy dají možnost rybám k přečkání než se příroda umoudří. A stačí neupravovat sklon koryta jen vyhloubit jámy bagrem. Řeší to i minimální průtok minimum vody se tam dostane takže v jámě voda vždy bude cirkulovat pro ryby.
Biodiesel generator powered atmospheric water generator. This is good pumped storage hydropower
Fantastisk💡!!
🌬️❄️🇧🇻🏠❄️💸🏚️❄️
Cloud seeding can unlimited water storage and unlimited water resources production through air and cloud for hydropower and artificial lake without wind power and solar panels power.
This works on the idea of gravitational potential energy and conservation of energy, but since some energy is converted into sound and heat, I wonder what is the percentage of energy given versus energy used to store the potential energy in the first place. Anyone knows ?
Better than storing it in any current battery technology.
Faust Von Barley That is very true
I am studying the IBDP at the moment and according to the course, efficiency is approximately 75%
Alex To be honest it's much less than I expected. I just read now out of curiosity that charge efficiency of li-ion batteries is 99% and discharge efficiency about the same. So I guess batteries are better than storing gravitational potential energy. Very, surprising to me.
Another question, why so low efficiency ?
Also, if we were able to create portals, that would mean infinite energy ?
I mean, just put a portal under the sea, and another on top of a hydro pomp.
nice explained
Often wondered if head water could be put through 2 or 3 turbines in succession. So the water exiting the 1st turbine then falls and drives a 2nd smaller unit. The water from.that then drives a 3rd even smaller unit to get more power from the same volume of water.l where its energy would be lost once first discharged........just a theory. Not sure if its practical.
fatwalletboy2 the problem is driving the second turbine may create extra back pressure to the first therefore decreasing its production.
I have often wondered about that too.
couldnt you just build a 2nd reservoir/buffer at any given dam allowing you to significantly increase output at night when needed and decrease possibly down to 0 or negative(pump it back up during day) to act as a battery for solar? the buffer reservoir could then be emptied at a rate to keep the river viable for natural life instead of a torrent every night and dry every day. for how much energy you could store doing this it seems it could compete with battery tech, perhaps when energy during peak solar hours is in the negative cents/kwh and energy at night 20...
They don't compete much, battery tech is very different:
-can be shipped and quick to install, hydro is location dependant and takes years
-very small, hydro storage is measured in kilometres
-instant frequency control, hydro is a blunt tool
-politically correct, hydro projects generate environmental protests
-about double the price of hydro
-not actually used much, 99% of grid storage is hydro
Where I live the reservoirs fill during spring thaw so extra in storage is sold before May, where batteries typically store four hours of power.
Hydro is a way of the past. In california pgnes helms pumped storage only makes sense because they used to receive cheap power from diablo canyon nuclear energy to pump water back up the hill at night. Diablo canyon is being shutdown over environmental/political reasons. Helms pumped storage generates just over 1 million kilowatt hours at full capacity, enough energy to power most of oakland or fresno, until the upper reservoir runs out of water.
Thank you!
Isn't pumping water back up the reservoir kind of energy inefficient?
Wasting energy to store energy.
***** You use surplus energy to pump the water up, essentially like a battery.
Mustang energy is always conserved, this is in fact a very efficient way to store energy much like how you can turn (some) electric motors manually to generate power you can turn the turbine one way to generate and the other way to pump (because it is attached to an electric motor of sorts) some energy is always lost from the system by forces like friction between the motors that creates heat and is the. Radiated out and this is what would be called an "inefficiency"
There's about a 15-30% loss depending on the facility.
The point of pumping the water up is to get rid of excess grid power
Pumped hydro
Solar power plants
Wind power
And gas fired power plants seem to be a good power balance with minimum CO2..
How is it compared to battery storage? And how much capacity there could be?
+miiiikku This solution is for long term storage (for example, over winter when there is no sun for photovoltics, or over summer when there is little wind). The storage capacity is limited by the size of the reservoir, and the storage life is MUCH better than battery. Battery storage is not good enough to store large amounts of energy for long periods of time.
the problem is geography, and they're nationally owned....you could easily upgrade the output capacity and run them flat out during peak hours and cut back alot at min hours, same amount of water would still leave/hr....just not much incentive
Good
Wery good ! ;)
nice
I'm Norwegian! whehey! :D :D
Hei!
heavenenergy
You generate electricity at a cheaper rate from renewable sources like solar, wind. That power can be used for pumping water back for reproduction of electric energy from hydro unit. However, the concern much power will be wasted feeding back the water to altitude for reproduction. If the overall Hybrid project's Plant Load Factor is increased then we are talking a sense here.
Wind energy in Europe rapidly increased and ran into curtailment where potential power was lost. Norway using undersea cables to buy and sell electricity was the solution to curtailment. If they manage to store any power that is a net gain, there is zero waste.
Norway is not even a part of the EU how is this even possible??
Norway has a number of special economic treaties with the EU.
Why not consider Switzerland first for the exact same purpose?
Geographically Switzerland would be a much more energy and cost efficient location, contrary to Norway.
In other words: Least energy lost if shortest path travelled - and we're neutral!
It would be great to combine South European solar power potential with the storage hydro capacity of Alpine countries. Basically energy stability for everybody.
There is already or plans of doing such in Switzerland. czcams.com/video/IGDASBgrIRc/video.html
Germany is a net electricity exporter to Switzerland. You can have a look at the data at energy-charts(dot)(de) under the 'Import & Export' section
No to acer plan
Metal gear peacewalker
you wish to make a difference??
Hydro electricity
The Frozen technology
An open letter to the world
By Simon Bowman
Australia
Since the beginning the growth of hydro science has been slow and we have made very little forward movement in the past 40 years.
The ideas that might make it leap forward with more efficient use of the water are stifled by education being thought of as immovable .
What was wrong yesterday will be wrong forever and new tech can't get around a problem.
This is not a problem solving mind set
Australia has forced many an idea to leave this country to grow
just because we have an issue with new ideas
A classic example was Metal Storm a new type of fire arm that had no magazine and no brass cartridges to hold the propellent.
all the bullets are held in the barrel and with this configuration the barrels can be stacked this gives it a rate of fire unmatched anywhere
It had to leave Australia to become a product or stay and die.
This I fear is the same story about to happen with the hydroelectric field
For the past two years RDP Marine Australia has been working on a system that can be retro fitted to all dams with tailraces longer than the turbine hall needs so it has to deal with a backpressure higher than is ideal creating a loss that can now be recovered
At this point it should also be noted that the inventor asks where is it written that water storage dams can’t make hydro power to ?
So is this inventor saying “This is the answer to all ur power needs?”
No of course not but like all good things it is a part of a solution it will fill the gap for base load green power
Lets not forget at the location where these units will be fitted has most of the infrastructure already in place to build the system
NOW TO THE ISSUES
There are three main issues right of the top that are the most commonly raised as why it will not happen
So lets stomp on them straight off
1, fit an item into the tailrace and backpressure will rise in the turbines
No this is not true as a this system if done right it can be fitted to be like a tuned exhaust for a car
2, There will be to little back pressure so RPM will not be constant
Again No if the system is correctly fitted this to is a dead issue
3, Dissolved gasses that are held in suspension
This is a minor issue and most chief engineers are well capable to work with this
4, NOW this one can be a deal-breaker it is to do with a what if question.
So what if the new set of turbines go down or just one ?
Well if one or all freeze up the main turbine hall will be unaffected and no issues flowing up hill
These four issues are the most common reasons I am told No
It is this closed thinking (knee jerk response) to a new idea from the same family of being blinded by their education that stifles the industry moving forward
The one question I have no answer to is time
How long to install?
How long to service the new turbines?
To service time i still don't know but the system is set to allow a swap out setup so actual down time for that turbine slot is less than two hours and the rest of the system remains running during the swap
How much will it cost?
I can guess only the price but the price is not so high as to be to costly
Whats its life span?
Well with servicing I can see it giving service for the life of the dam
NOW the big question Money!!
this is a fluid issue shall we say the rate changes and i have stated previously money values but the income is in two parts the improved tailrace efficiency and the second bank of turbines should be close to 10% extra income
The one main issue I find so wrong is the time line needed from this point to the world seeing a working unit.
The tech is there to make it
The skills are available to hire
The market is in need of this item
But the price will rise with demand as the population is getting bigger but the book keepers are happy to see it remain as a rare item with a limited output that pushes up the price
The first adopters have always been the biggest winners I wonder in this area if it will be the big four or will a player from left field run on and wipe the floor with the rest standing with their hands in their pockets confused as to what just happened
Well, I hope this has given you food for thought and made you pause your thinking and look into what I have said I do not expect you to just except what I have stated as fact nor do I know it all so I can learn a new thing to.
Please pass this around let the open minded look it over and pass judgment after all the driver in the end is the need and the ability to see what is needed down the road is the saving grace of the human species to plan ahead
If you think i have missed a point or you have questions please comment i will respond well within 24hr and as i have said many times i don't know it all and you never stop learning
Padha 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Great video. Thank you
Good