Parses Are Overvalued and Negatively Impact Classic Wow
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- čas přidán 15. 04. 2020
- In this video, I go over my opinion on parses.
Here are my warcraft logs (2 because of transfer):
classic.warcraftlogs.com/char...
classic.warcraftlogs.com/char...
/ zatar_wow
/ zatar_wow - Hry
Here are my logs, as I am sure you guys will want to see them :)
classic.warcraftlogs.com/character/us/incendius/zatar
classic.warcraftlogs.com/character/us/incendius/zatar
If you want to see the parses shown in the video, make sure to click phase 1 & 2 for incendius.
Your videos are awesome and every time I see one posted I find myself thinking “that’s a really good point”. Keep up the awesome content
I just think parsing makes people feel important, but what parses don’t show is that without those other mages stacking winters chill and the other warlocks putting on curse of elements and curse of shadow or the WF totems or whatever other example you want to give you wouldn’t parse anyway. It takes more than just that one person to parse and I think that gets overlooked.
I mean but parses do show all of that. Buff uptimes are shown in warcraft logs pretty easily. I can agree that for healers parses mean nothing but for dps it's directly tied to the success of the raid. More dps across the board = faster boss kills.
ofcourse thy get overlooked thats just the nature of it. in retail some chinese guilds are stacking kyrian boomkins because they get a power infuse ability, even tho the druids lose a ton of personal dps by going kyrian. its behind the scenes work but the guilds that do these things understand the value and appreciate them.
Yup! I play priest and when we do chromag, I am constantly dispelling diseases and magic off our raid, I always have a mage blood up, and I also have the most expensive trinket in the game (blue dragon) which allows me to get even more dispels, I use demonic runes and major mana. I get the most dispels in the raid. Guess what my healing parse is for chromag? Less than 10%... it’s absolutely reeeetarded!!!
We have a priest that stands in the fire on magmadar heals himself and constantly uses power word shield on the tank on cooldown. So his rotation is pws stand in fire spam flash heal himself waits for weakened soul debuff on tank to go off uses another pws then continues spamming flash heal on himself to get a 99.
Yep. I have seen guys apparently not dispelling at all because they want higher parses. Or something. Which is just stupid and the prime example healing parses dont work properly.
Interestingly, this was the best video I could find to explain what parses are.
Great video and content. I recently joined a friends guild that has a hardcore T1 and a more casual but still not "casual" T2. I only recently came back to classic and dinged 60 on my rogue, then got myself mostly pre-bis'd and came along to a T2 MC clear. My parse was really good for my ilvl, and I outdps'd a lot of really well geared people, but as you highlight, a lot of that was due to world buffs and consumes. So in order to stay "competitive" whilst being under-geared compared to the rest, I'll have to constantly grind out gold/time for consumes - which is frankly not why I came back to classic, I done enough of that first time around in vanilla. I wish it was all just simpler again, I'd far prefer a run that takes 15-30mins longer with no consumes than having to spend multiple hours a week to get only very small incremental speed gains on already optimised runs.
I think you actually have 1-7 in the correct order, too. I stress to the rogues in my guild that, while you can aim to improve, there's no point in stressing about trying to compete with someone that gets to have 100% uptime on Adrenaline Rush because the boss dies in 15 seconds.
evasion tanking is quiet possibly the most satisfying thing you can do as a rogue
I was pvp specced for last week's Ony, and evasion tanked for a full 30 seconds until our Feral tank got aggro when she landed in p3, with a clean Vanish at the end. It was glorious.
@@Rave.- godmode
Thank you for putting this out. I love my class and have seen so many good time ruined by people trying to parse.
Do YOUR best and be a part of many good times to be had.
dps parses depend on 20% personal skill (rotation, chromaggus/firemaw etc tactics), 20% worldbuffs & consumes & gear, 50% tank gear and skill and 10% RNG (crits and hits).No matter how godly your gear is and how perfect your rotation is and youre fully worldbuffed and consumed to the max, if your tank has mirahs song and shield, deep prot and he is dogshit, there is absolutely no way you will parse higher than playing with a DW furyprot with thunderfury. thats why imo its super super important to pimp out the tank ASAP because you, as a DPS scales the hardest with tank skill & gear
@Vale Sauce full wall of hate just beacuse ppl dont wanna play like you dosent make them an enemy and stop generalizing everyone what is this? i have found way more toxic casual players on the 6 classic servers i played then in the leading guilds. yes there is often 1 guild thats toxic on top but most others are nice ppl. why u ppl act like someone would harm you if they play like they want? such selfish behaviour is just crazy theonly ppl who has an ego problem are ppl like you. u dont even understand the topic u talk ya 2 buttons to press that is ecaxtly what a toxic casual would say knowing nothing just spread hate.
Very cool vid m8 thanks for making it
All my sentiments exactly!
Please do a video about healing parses aswell! Especially regarding overhealing...
I feel as though anyone that is on top of their shit enough to pay attention to parses should already have an even higher scorn for overhealing. My guild in particular looks at that as negatively as pulling aggro from trying to DPS too hard.
much depends on how the guild values contribution, and allocates loot.
Dagger rogue here and I completely agree with you. I live for the stuff where I'm the rogue in raid that interrupts Great Heal on Zealot Lor'Khan or the bat boss in ZG and I have to work Kick into my rotation, and I do, because it's what the raid needs at that time. Otherwise they'd heal and it would things a little more difficult, since we're more casual and aren't as geared as hardcore guilds are. I live for being the MVP, the guy that takes the orb on Razorgore. That shit's great and the more people you have willing to do that, the more it makes everything run better.
there are mvp playes in speedruns as well normal ppl just dont see it. like i said before dont see u as the nice casual and the others as the bad parsers theese are just ppl who get bored cause they wanna improve the raids they play in and themself. it has nothing to do with elitism im just bored if i dont try to get better each week and i play the game for the 6th time now and still i love to get better. the contend dosent matter for me i can better at killing hogger each week if there was no othr contend. i hope i could make myself clear everyone has a place in classic and everyone can have a raid that playes thir playstyle. but i want to stop that hate between casual ppl who dont mind if their raid makes bad playes all the time and otehr players who want to imporove and have a thrive to make the least errors in a run possible. in every sportsgame thats a normal behaviour only in wow its a bad thing if u want to get better in the eyes of ppl who are "not in the club" stop the hate
People seem upset and that they're specifically targeted and mentioned in this video lmao, dude is saying he doesn't care for parses, not that we shouldn't. It's a game after all, play how you want and what creates most fun.
cause he's saying it like it's fact not opinion, parsing is just another way to compete and not get bored...
Hi can i ask? As daggers rogue is better 2x crusader enchant or striking +5 /15 agi ? I see both on rogues on my server. Thanks for answer :)
Crusader sims better than +5 on MH by about ~5 dps in my gear. Much less difference between crusader/agi on offhand. For the OH it mostly comes down to whether you're okay with the RNG of double crus and if you have the buffslots for 2 procs.
Hi Zatar, Im a casual player and looking for something different and fun to play for PVE. I find Hemo really interesting as well as lowering armour. Do you think a slow heavy mace main hand with 30/0/21 Hemo would be decent but fun to play? Or do you think the 31st Assasination talent lets you string things together better and it would be more fun to play a 31/0/20 build?
Do you want your build to be good in PvP at all? Or just a PVE player. In PVE that last point doesn't do much
@@Zatar I dont have the time to go heavy on raiding, so I want to do a small amount of pvp and pve in the 1.5 hours I have per day to play. I am the super casual player who just wants fun. Im also planning for lousy gear that I can just get at the AH and just run around with for fun.
Well you're on the right track using Cold Blood that's a great ability if you don't have as much gear. If you wanted to be more PVP focused, you can go for Preparation and hemorrhage. If you want to be more PVE focused you could head towards blade flurry
@@Zatar Would cold blood and hemo be fun for a pvp, pve mix? Is there any way to make hemo really good in a raid?
It is hard in classic to play a spec that's good in both PVE and PVP.
Sub it's really good in PvP but almost useless in raid. Combat is really good in PVE, but you miss out on powerful effects for PVP.
Ultimately if you do want to play both, combat daggers does pretty well in both, and seal fate daggers can do well also, but that spec needs more gear.
100% agree, the only real important things are raid time and raid DPS. All raid members should on this which included tactics, doing valueble things(CC in time, positioning, do not pulling aggro, etc). Also gearing tanks at first increase possible aggro pull which leads to increasing maximum possible personal DPS. With a poor tanks DD in bis could waste their time while tanks gathering enough aggro as example.
For my guild, the parsing meta has been hugely beneficial. Back in October, nobody cared about getting worldbuffs, nobody cared about dps or even getting the most out of their char. The results were long and tedious raids that no one really enjoyed. Now people try to play on the edge as much as possible, actively cooperating to get the best out of a party composition to show off they can actually outperform other / certain players. It's been a huge motivator in general to optimize our play, giving players something else than "FAT LEWT" to raid for.
so now ur raids are really boring huh.. where you chase all world buffs so you can face roll mechanics... sad.... only trash do that cause they want that "Fat lewtz" not a raid experience... my raid team actually kicks you if you have world buffs and wont let you join till you remove them. WE dont allow cheese world firsts on bosses dont event count if your world buffed... FACT.
great video
Vanilla wow is all about time commitment. Old style mmos were ingenious because the time gating was everywhere to get you to play for longer artificially which means more subscription months. What the endgame in vanilla boils down to is 99% prep and 1% execution. There's mostly 1 best way to do the boss and you do the same thing every time, just expecting different loot. People have been playing this for 15 years. We know how to get max dps by no lifing and tryharding, so it's not really an achievement for people to be top parses, because you are either playing efficiently or not. It's just sad that this kind of culture has emerged and take the game so seriously, as if their entire life worth is riding on their dps.
unfortunately, not all data is logged. It almost never logs my buff consumption. This gives a misleading impression to my RL, who thinks I didn't bring consumables, just because the logs didn't show.
I'm really not sure all data is logged - even damage..
Potions aren't counted when not in combat. Only stuff that happens in-combat are logged.
My guild’s priest only buff during combat to prove they buff. Shammies do all the heals. It’s politics at its best.
Maybe you don't worry about it cause your parses are very good anyway. Me on the other hand I just started back WoW a week ago on a feral druid, ran BFD for the first time (got kicked out of the first group before it even started for some unknown reason, maybe cause I had no logs) and after I looked at my logs and I feel like a total POS. The first boss was my best parse and it was only 47 (green) and my ilvl compared to my gear was 73%. Now looking at these parses people aren't going to want me to group with them and it sucks for me cause I am still learning my class and literally made druid 3 days ago so I'm still learning. I miss the old days where this stuff never existed and people just had fun. We killed all 7 bosses and the guy said GJ at the end but I still feel like shit looking at my parses..
People don't have time to wait for your low damage on your subpar classic/specialization these days unfortunately, if you still want to use them try to at least be overgeared or bring something useful to the raids you go to.
Can you make another money making guide because the rfd guide is good but the price for the shards are going down
How come you don't stream on CZcams anymore?
Twitch does not allow you to stream on CZcams if you are an affiliate
i was 2nd in dps in a guild i was in, but becuase i didn't parse they always had me leave the raid to let randoms in.. so i eventualy g quit, but then found no one would let me join a raid guild unless i had a parse to show them, so i eventually just quit wow classic. pretty much killed the enjoyment of the game
Parses can dispell skill. Ofcourse it depends on the guild. The better the guild, the easier it is to parse higher
If you know how to read logs, you might find, that the priest is doing 50% healing parse, is because he is dispelling alot
Or to find the warriors that doesnt sunder on first global etc
Parsing is a great tool to find, who is slacking etc in the raids
If you look at the 100 parses for rogues and warriors, in almost every single one in BWL, they get a crusader proc in the first second and just go crazy because they have an amazing tank
ya and they also play almost perfect and have way more isight knowlege of the class and wow mechanics in the background than the normal player but ya its all just luck...
Forgot one that’s super High: RNG
Exactly even on a warrior the difference between a 99 and a 95 is flurry procs (crit luck), crusader procs (hit luck), glancing blows, average white hits (have a range value), crits in general for damage output. On warlocks and mages it's 1 button being spammed most often and relying on hits and crits lol.
this only applies to classic though ppl should know that in mythic retail parses do matter
It is so funny when classic players think parse matters, when 1% of your dmg is linked to your skill. Had to quit when I realized all that matters in this game is buffs. Boring as hell.
It only matters if you make it matter and you hang out with people that think it matters. It's about mentality. You can still play the game without DPS meters and parse logs.
@@lasergames1798 very true, I joined a guild who was so anal about parsing and speed runs and that was cool and all since im very competitive but in a game like classic its kinda sad, I didn't come back to try hard in a 15 year old game lol so I joined another guild and they basically were the funniest guild I've joined and raiding doesn't feel like a hassle.
@@lasergames1798 You can, but usually end up in trash guilds that can barely even go through the content because the average player skill is so low in this game.
@@cheezet100fyi It sounds like you learned how to properly play games. There's nothing wrong with being competitive but the games are there for fun. Clearing dungeons in 1hr vs 1.5hrs is nice but if you spend 2 hours farming for consumes for the speed run it actually took you 3 hours to speed run. No need to waste time being a tryhard for a game that isn't that hard. Who cares if your ranked #1000 or #100,000. They likely have the exact same gear.
If you want to compete then compete against your guildies for the rights to talk shit. Bragging about a ranking or a parse (that your guildies heavily influence) is just epeen bullshit.
@@Madlib35 they might not clear a new raid in the first 2-3 weeks but most will figure out a way to clear content. It's not that hard.
This man knows the truth
Nice video. Parsing is fun...but that's strictly all it's good for. Classic wow is great but it has turned out to be a cakewalk. "Yeah but just wait until naxx and AQ!" No. These will not be difficult either. More difficult than MC and BWL, sure. But most guilds will have these cleared within a couple weeks. When you begin to focus too much on your dps and start to micro manage swing timers and every little detail, it really takes you out of the experience in my opinion.
10:38 Not selfish, really. Just lazy. It can be lazy to the point of selfishness, though. If you have a guild that has a certain effort threshold to keep runs smooth and quick, and you're not performing to that standard, you're essentially being carried and shouldn't be in that group.
If you're in a casual guild where no world buffs and enchants is the norm, then absolutely. Do that. I certainly wouldn't want to be in that guild, but to each their own. Effort should match effort.
Bah. Lazy because you don't wanna spend hours upon hours of preparation to cut off 15 minutes of a raid that already takes less than an hour to complete? Especially when MC was the only raid. In the early days of classic I always looked forward to raids, but when the highlight of my week (in terms of the game), which is already only one hour long, why go to such ridiculous measures to reduce that time even more. When you start speedrunning the content, then there's not enough content.
@@nielsliljedahlchristensen4924 World buffs take about as long to get as the time they save in raid. It's a matter of how you invest your time.
@@Rave.- DM, Ony, Songflower? Takes way longer
Niels Liljedahl Christensen I mean I wouldn’t want to raid with someone who’s too lazy to at least get Ony buff. And aside from songflower the rest of the world buffs aren’t too bad to get especially if you’re in a guild that focuses on getting them.
DM, Ony, Songflower takes about 20 minutes total, once one group has cleared DMN (which is about 20 minutes for 5 people that chose to go anyway).
As I've said, time invested is your choice. But I wouldn't want to be in such a guild that doesn't invest their time wisely and with the foresight to see how much more efficient they can be.
all because the boss fight is too easy, ppl dont care how to cooperate to take down the boss but only those numbers.
u have to coorporate way more if u minmax. i love how casuals always paint them as the real wow players. we care the same bout a bosskill a nice save or whatever but do you see any minmax player here spreading hate? u ppl all have an ego problem not the pp who parse high.
@@autdelux Did you really say parse..... Fore!!!!!!!!!!!!
parsing gets me all the fat loot. shitting on warriors is my #1 goal in classic
Do you help people kill the boss by actively not showing up with buffs and consumes? No. Your logic is flawed. Expecting other people to show up prepared is mostly not due to people wanting to get as good parses as possible. They are trying to improve their raids overall performance and make the runs go smoother and therefore more enjoyable. But what do I know, maybe you enjoy wiping in classic raids /shrug
Isn't improving overall raid performance just a synonym for improving raid parses?
First!
you are actually in the video (kinda)
I think you are misrepresenting what top parses actually mean. No one is getting a top parse without the contribution of the rest of the raid. Your parses will change drastically based on the kill time of the boss. When boss kill speed gets faster, the smallest mistake in your rotation, cd usage, or uptime will mean the difference between a 99 and a 95. You can use that difference in parses to pick out a fight where you need to go to your log and see what you messed up. You'll also see that the left column is everyone's parse on that boss. You want to look to the right where it shows your parse compared to others of similar gear level. If you are parsing lower for your gear level than the overall parse then you have room to improve your itemization or execution. I wouldn't dismiss parsing like you do. Help these people understand what the usefulness of parses are and how they can be used as a tool to improve your play.
it doesnt work like that actually your parse isnt compared to only kills that took the same time as your kill. its compared to all the kills for ur spec. so the shorter the fight, the higher dps due to less time outside burst window, and the higher your pars will be
@@LeagueCritic that was the point I was making
What about the Mages, who spend 200g on consumables every week. Flasks, Elixirs, Fire Protection Potions. If I pop 2x Greater Fire Protection potions on Vael and Firemaw, Not only does that keep my spells from being pushed back, but it helps the Healers too. Lets say a CTS drops, and it's between you and someone who goes the extra mile. What is the loot council supposed to say? Performance is what separates players. I understand wanting to take the game casually, that's cool. I understand how you don't like the culture that parsing has created in the game, but I think it's unfair to claim that it Negatively impacts the game. The title of your video should be "I don't enjoy Parsing Culture in Classic Wow."
None of the consumes you mentioned are necessary, and will not change the outcome of killing the boss. I understand you might enjoy going for parses, but nothing you're doing is it actually the difference between killing the boss and not.
I don't care if hardcore speedrunning Guild cares about parses, but the parse culture has spread to more than just hardcore guilds. In a casual Guild, or even semi hardcore Guild, why would you want to reward people for essentially wasting money on non-essential consumes?
People determine players worth based on their parses. I think parsing is a big contributor to the elitism in the classic wow community.
What about in AQ, when the raid has wiped and the buffs are gone. For progression, trying to kill these hard bosses for the first time, will you have elemental sharpening stones? Will you have elixirs to pop and potentially lose multiple times during progression? At that point, it's not wasted money, it's being used for progression.
This assumes that you would be failing to progress because of DPS / healing checks. When in reality, the mechanics are what will cause the wipes. You can chug as many elixirs as you want, but if you are wiping at 50% because of failed mechanics, the elixirs are not going to help.
or just say "i hate ppl who wanna perfecting the game because i dont wanna get compared to them so i make videos and posts how pathetic they are and how wrong they play the game and tell them how i play the game the right way" egomaniacs
@@autdelux damn you pressed huh? He articulated his points well and at multiple points stated that if parsing matters to you thats perfectly fine. Stop feeling attacked and take the video for what it is.
if u play classic for a long time u want to get better. i know there are a ton of ppl who dont care how they play but im not such a player, if i spent alot of time into something i do not want to suck at it. parses are important to have information about how have u played and where u messed up to keep improving. also u can see there if u messed up or otehr factors hold u back. Most ppl who hate parses have low ones and dont wanna get called out for bad play (i dont point on you i know u are not bad but u know what i mean). So i play classic now for the 6th time and if i dont parse what else should i learn or do i know every fight in and out aand can do the raids in my sleep. also parsing is a group effort u cant parse alone so it makes your raid stronger if everyone put some effort in into playing a boss better than last week. noone says eevryone has to top parse or speedrun but getting better should be a goal of any palyer or raid and logs helps alot with that. What if your raid plays the bosses flawless what do you do now? bored doing chilled 80 parse every week? sry thats way to boring for me. btw u are selfish if u dont put the effort in that others do i your raid they have also make some sacrafices to do so why should you not? if u play in a casual raid where noone give a f than ofc u are free as well. but i see at least 30 raids on every big server that are more tryhard if u are in such a guild there is nothing wrong with pushing the limits we are just to bored playing classic so often and just do half gas every week thats a waste of time for me. problem is most ppl havent played on pservers so they want their 15 year old meta again or they feel bad. but times has gone further in 15 years and the meta has shifted to a more competitive scene. ppl who cant understand that are just sad but that brings not back classic as it was 15 years ago. we play a supernerfed and over itemiced version of the game with absolutly no challange so ofc ppl will look for a challange so they parse or speedrun. if ppl have fun doin 2h mc and bwl runs where everyone does green and blue parses just to be happy when they save a bossfight cause ppl did play bad in the 1st place then its up to you its just not my cup of tea. if ppl play shitty it takes away from my fun. do you think messi have fun playing soccer with a bunch of ppl who dont give a f bout soccer and play how they want? and then you say to him "its just a game w u hev to be so tryhard?" parserers need to stop hating on casuals and casuals need to understand that other ppl have no fun in playing in a raid where ppl do retarded stuff all day. easy as that. start connecting instead of dividing thats my solution. we dont have to be in the same raid there are enough raids for every playstyle u want.
I'll take things a 80% parser would say for $1000, Alex
Of course a Purple Parsing Philip is gonna say they dont like parses. You'll love em when you're a Pink Parsing Peter though.
Only losers actually take parses seriously
@@ykonratev spoken like a true Grey Parsing Gordon
@@UndoerRS You got nothing to say cause you know it's true. I didn't say I don't try I can hit 70 80s in casual guild runs but I don't need to speed run just so I can parse higher.
People parse for fun and to have some competition. Only the absolute bottom barrel of the losers actually take it seriously.
@@ykonratev the only one who gets mad is you why is that? why do you respond to such a minor insult concernig parsing if u dont care? also whats with that that noone is allowed to take anything srs if they sacrifice alot of time for something? do you hate on the idk dart players in your pub cause they wanan get better every week when they meet? no u dont just get things sraight u ppl only spreading hate and take every chance to tell better players that they are bad. and no a parse dont tell you how good you are but a grey parse does tell me that u are complete sh at the game and cant even press your buttons faster than 3sec per click. if u enjoy playing with ppl that bad noone holds you back. but we dont come after you and hate on you cause u are bad and make videos about the bad casuals and how wrong they play the game.
@@autdelux bro you just wrote me an essay when all I said was "only losers care about parsing" to an already demeaning comment. So why are you so mad then hm? I dont care how you play lol did I say that?
It's still true that only the absolute losers worry about getting number 1 parse..don't get how you can even argue that. It has nothing to do with skill and all of it is buffs... anyone that's honest will admit that...
I disagree, I think 4 5 and 7 are the same thing, as well as 6 in a sense, as you can min max your gear without getting decked out in raid. For example, friend of mine switched his main and brought his full pre bis mage (dungeon loot only) in BWL and beat all but our top mage. He parsed in the high 80s and low 90s with 99 iLvl parses. This was because he came prepared and had the skill and knowledge to use what he needed to when he needed to, he brought a fire resist set and didn’t have to step out for firemaw blah blah blah. The other thing is another friend of mine is in a hardcore guild and they all regularly parse 99 BECAUSE all of those players are going for parses. Everyone is on the same page, everyone tries their best and come prepared so they all do well. 1 person slacks and it effects the raid. If you don’t care about parsing that’s ok, you can have fun and play the game how you want of course, just be in a guild where that play style is fostered.
well said
Ok but nothing in classic takes any skill so of course parses don’t.
the excuse for not parsing well came down to what, your guild being shit and not knowing mechanics? you're kind of doing your guild a disfavor and making fights take longer by not doing as much dps as you can
Sure you can make a generic statement like not doing as much DPS as possible is doing your guild a disfavor. The problem with that statement is to what end?
Have you ever stepped foot in a raid without full bufs and consumes? Are you allowed to play a suboptimal spec?
Of course it's a grand idea to always try and do as much DPS as possible but everyone has limits on what they are willing to do.
I mean, that's your opinion bro. Parsing culture encourages people to push themselves and push their classes past what was perceived possible. I don't think that's toxic at all.
Parsing on your own terms is fine if that's what you play wow for and if you are in a hardcore guild. It gets toxic when you try an force others to parse when they just want to have fun and play their way. I'd rather play with a mix of people. Some that obssess with parsing and some that just play for fun and know the mechanics so they can survive the fights even if they don't put up the highest number.
It's good to get a solid rotation and have as many buffs as possible, but sometimes people min max the fun out of a game. I'd never ask anyone to be perfect, just know your class, know your roll in the fight, and have fun. Doesn't matter to me if we kill the boss in 2 minutes or 5 minutes as long as we kill the boss.
@@mcfry13 You only min max the fun out of something when you force others around you to do it. I min max my builds and gearing, healers adapt. Guess what we are parsing 99s and Im not dying, my healers get better at the game. The game isn't hard, everyone wants to clear shit faster. There's literally no need to build like a boomer anymore.
Just cause your logs are crap doesnt mean its a bad thing for the game...