I would really like to see you pick Euro-Profile cylinders in their respective correct orientation, which is 180° flipped from how American locks are mounted. Meaning "top of the keyway" is "bottom of the keyway" for us.
@@An0niem4 You need to work in the complete opposite direction and can't rely on gravity to let the keypins fall back down and clear of the sheer line.
Well, we all know that because of "manufacturing tolerances" each lock has a certain order in which the pins must be set. I bet UrbanHawk is going to manipulate this to force the #2 pin to be set first; once it is, there's no way to raise pin 3 (in particular) because there's no clearance. (For example, if you slightly chamfer the holes in the cylinder for pins 3-5 they will always set after the non-chamfered pins). Hence the name - Pin 2 becomes a Pin Blocker, preventing access to the pins behind. EDIT - rather than a chamfer, a countersink might work better - a chamfer could allow a partially-picked pin to "ride up the hill", a straight-sided countersink would prevent this.
Can anybody manufacture or find a way to countersink/chamfer the 3-5 holes inside the barrel. I mean this kind of barrel cannot be made by cutting out metal, only way is to 3d print such barrel (with countersink hole on inside surface.
@@vikasbrijkaushly7278 That's actually entirely possible to machine, it would just be very expensive. You'd need an undercut tool to do it, and circular interpolate the holes. It's doable, just expensive and slow. :)
For more fun, how about a chamfer leading away from the end of the driver, so that a partially picked pin would "ride down the hill" away from a set position?
I had a thought of this as well; Make a driver pin with a spool and fits the entire core without a spring on it. So if you get the others open it will not go past the false set unless you release all tension and let the pin drop, effectively spoiling any potential picks.
Am I the only European with a slightly itch in the brain because each time he works with a europrofile lock he puts it upside down according to how they use to be installed?
The number two pin is going to be purposefully made as the first pin to be set, then, it’ll block access to the other pins, which can’t be set until the number two pin is set
My guess is - or was (no follow up still) - the three pin will always be set very high, and would leave the left warding intact, making it hard to get the pick up from the bottom. We may never know.
It also seemed at 9:21 that only half of the pins are actually visible which could make single picking even more difficult. Overall, I'd say this this lock is not more pick resistant other than requiring high dexterity due to somewhat limited access to pins.
As a locksmith we avoid these deepest cuts in the first three pin chambers closest to the bow so the key is not broken too easily. There are a percentage of People who twist a key when inserting it and stress the key. I would place the zero lift to chamber 5.
My guess is that the #2 keypin has a spool element that allows a sidebar or ball bearing to drop in unless it is overset. This would block the movement of pin 3, locking it in place so it can not be lifted to the shear line.
My guess would be some kind of trap tied into the zero cut pin. Something that even checking pin 2 causes it to fall into the trap, unless binding order is perfect. I have no idea what that could be & I didn't say it was a good guess. 😂
Need to make sure that second pin always binds first so you can't just push it out of the way to pick the other pins first! Standard pins on the second pin and T pins on the others? I had a particularly evil idea that is similar, but perhaps even more scary to pick. Zero lift pins sticking deep enough into the lock, from both top and bottom, that there is no straight line path down the keyway whatsoever while the zero lift pins are set. Also, since the zero lift pins are standard and the functional pins are T-pins, the only way the cylinder can turn far enough for the functional pins to bind is if the zero lift pins are already set, which blocks access to lockpicks. The key for such a lock would be zig-zag shaped.
A spring actuator to dissociate the other side of the lock unless a key is present with anti bypass design along with core holes at 11 and 13 o'clock to allow driver pins to fall into it if the key is not present. Rendering the lock inoperable at a false set in either direction. Anti drill pins.
Is the low cut number two pin supposed to be slightly bigger diameter so that you have to set it first, effectively blocking access to the pins behind it?
That's the most plausible answer. Basically if you set the pin as low as possible, and have the following pin as close to MACS as possible, and not drilling through the warding on the 3rd pin, you effectively make the lock almost impossible to pick. Making pin 2 wider as well, means you wouldn't be able to drop pick it either, as the other pins would drop first.
Here I was thinking I was smart and you've got a year old video about somebody who already came up with the same idea. If UrbanHawk ever sends you that second prototype with the #2 pin setting first and forcing you to pick the back pins from the side, it would be great to see how effective it is.
My guess is that you won't be able to tension the lock with #2 lowered even a bit. (Maybe #2 will be slightly tigther to achieve this?) That way you either (1) keep #2 untouched and then you can't access #3--#6 or (2) you won't be able to pick #3--#6 as the pins wouldn't ever be binding. But when you insert the key, you set all pins to the correct position including #2, and then everything works. The point is, I don't believe that traps is what LPL has in mind, traps are fine but somehow useless if the owner has to drill the lock after an unsuccessful picking.
I think a heavy spring tension along with an evil bidding, perhaps with warding along the pin stacks would be pretty hard to pick. Heavy spring tension would require a heavy duty pick, but a challenging warding that only a .015 pick could fit inside. It wouldn't be able to move the pins because of the extra spring tension What do you think @LockPickingLawyer ?
With that warding it would be perfect to have a max depth cut, so it would overlift as soon as it is touched, and use the macs to make pin 3 hard to set. As the DIN is mounted upside down, a driver is needed in chamber 2. Can the plugs in the top be punched out for rekeying, or is a special loading tool needed ? With the balanced pin stack it is nice to punch the plugs through and fit them back in after loading pins and springs on a double cylinder
Why even pick , that is non snap proof lock , it takes some basic tools and its open in 10 sec when it snaps in half . Bet Ramset would beat that lock by shooting the lock it may snap in half too . weakest point is that hole in middle and when thats not forged steel its not a good lock . Here some scary ad about it from 2013 czcams.com/video/88m_Hk5ipI8/video.html
Pete Lind there are many faceplate designs to protect a DIN cylinder from snap and the core from being pulled out. The deal here is to protect against NDE without any signs. Causing insurrance claims problems
there is one big problem with low spots on a key like you mention and i have had that issue myself the key is more prone to bending and fracturing! so it may be harder to pick but its more likely to break the key. fortunately for me it didnt break in the lock so i bought as new one and replaced the lock it was a euro style similar to what you have here
Probably not the first to say it, but I'm imagining something like the kwikset (I think) modification you showcased a while ago where picking pin 2 incorrectly will let the core turn, but a smaller second driver will drop into a trap hole and effectively permanently brick the lock. What would be nice with that kind of system would be a way to reset it. Something simple like a rod from the inside that could push the "bricking" pin back.
I'm assuming that the proper design would be a tweak to the warding such that it'd be impossible to pick the back pins without disturbing the max depth pin in chamber 2.
I was thinking of doing something similar with a KW1 keyway, extending the chambers for position #1 and #3 though the warding where they would normally sit so as to let the pins in those chambers spots reach all the way to the warding, but *not* extending the holes for any other pins so as to allow picking them from below the warding. A couple of other essential features not present here would be the use of flat-topped key pins in the super-low-cut spots, but slightly bottle-shaped upper pins everywhere else. The flat-top keys could have a very slight taper at top, but the minimum diameter should be well above the "neck" diameter of the bottle-shaped pins. Key insertion would be slightly awkward since the point of the key would have to be lower than usual, which would mean the front of the lock would guide the key to the wrong place, but otherwise I think even a stock KW1 keyway, adjusted in under a minute with a pin-sized drill. should pose a challenge. An essential requirement for pick resistance would be that the sides of the bottle necks not be able to reach the edges of the chambers except when key pins for the two lowest cuts are in their lowest position. Having shoulders on the bottle-shaped pins would help them fall into place and lock the cylinder in the correct position to guide the flat-top pins into the bible.
The keyway looks so familiar ;), almost like on some Burgwaechter padlocks. I love that prototype key haha :D. Some Euro cylinders do actually not have the holes drilled through the warding completely, so it is very very hard to set very high pins in the back protected by lower ones in front of them on these. I've had locks with so high pins that even the deepest hooks could not reach high enough or simply couldn't get in position (a tight paracentric keyway makes it even harder). I'm very curious how Urban Hawk's finished cylinder will look like, he's a smart guy :).
It is similar to the BW... like the Gamma 700? What Euro cylinders have shallow drilled holes... now that you mention it, it seems familiar, but I can’t place where I saw it. Maybe Mauer?
Yes, it looks almost identical like on the 600/700, just reversed and the last top bit is not angled. Many cylinders with a Yale or mirrored Yale style keyway (Zeiss Ikon, ZI, ERA, Vachette aso...) have the holes not drilled through (you can of course pick the from the side ledge, but it's not always comfortable and bitting can make it hard). I have on the other hand a 5 pin round double cylinder from BKS, which has the holes drilled through, but the pins are so low that you can't pick from the side and from the bottom you can't get them high enough (even not with the ssdevs or other deep picks I have)...a nightmare, but I've not yet given up ;) (very similar experience with other old BKS and Zeiss locks...). 👋🦊
Guessing that the first set of pins is riding on a floating element (wedge?) of some sort that sits in that very odd groove in the key. That hole through the key makes me think it’s there intentionally for lining up a floating element that maybe the pins sit on top of, so you need to manipulate the floating element as a single object to get the lift/angle perfect to set those pins.
One question I had in my mind for a while... do you think (with your experience) you could design a pin tumbler lock that you couldn't pick yourself? ;)
@Michael Persico It is possible to make a lock he could open with the key, gut it, learn it, then be unable to pick because certain obstructions prevent him from reaching some key components.
You could force pin 2 to bind first, so there will be no way to access the pins at the back without oversetting pin 2. You would have to use some sort of pick that wrap around the warding while picking...
Do you commonly bend really thin hooks when dealing with security pins? I bought a set of nice thin Rytan picks and trying to pick an adversary lock, I commonly find myself bending the hooks (vertically, not horizontally). I should say that I suck at security pins, so I suspect I'm just doing it wrong and this method I'm using just requires too much force.
First, great picking LPL. My guess is that the pin holes will not go through the key warding. Preventing exactly what you did here. That way any pick you try to use off the warding would overset that low pin and it’s all over.
I would think a keyhole slot (think woodworking frame hangar, look up keyhole router bits of you need the visual) cut radially a ways around the perimeter, with those spool pins, and that warding would be extremely difficult to pick
Well, as long as you can snap the lock in the middle, it doesnt matter how pick resistant it is. Anyway,By any chance, could you show us Abus 20/80 picking ? :) or any destructive way? U showed this abus in one of your vids, but that time you said u cant pick it
My apartment building had keys with a low cut 1 or 2 pin like this key. The keys kept twisting off at that point and the lock company kept charging us for new keys. The landlord finally got rid of those keys and replaced them with keys that didn't have this feature.
Will the pins be set at different "heights", so that the #2 pin will be low, sort of "blocking" the pins further back from any raking or picking attempts? If that's what it is... how would the key get past it?
Zeet, Think about the difference between picking a lock, and using a key. When you use a key. all the pins are lifted to their correct positions AND HELD THERE! so as you turn the cylinder, all the pins stay at the shear line. But when you pick a lock, you are just getting the pins to catch on the shear line - you aren't holding them all in place as you turn the cylinder. A key would have no problem - as it slides past the low-cut pin it will push it higher than its set position, but once the key is properly in place, all the pins will be pushed back so they align with the shear.
My guess (in 2022) is that the low number two pin is going to be so long, that a comb-pick would not be able to push it all the way up above the sheer line.
Has there been any update regarding this lock? Also I'm theorizing it's gonna be pin 2 is gonna be pin-in-pin, with the outer pin being the lowest cut and the inner pin being the highest cut it can have
i think ik y 2 is a low cut. in the nrxt prototype, i presume hes gonna have Pin 2 be the last Binding pin when picking or be a pain to get a pick around it. I recomend that he should thread/undercut the chambers and polish the chambers as much as possible ti minimuze feedback from the pick. Lastly, i recommend he try an ASSA pin, the german pins with the hovering washers (serated thst r not attached to pin. Ball baring pins, and pin in pins
Nobody has ever built a core that requires tension on both way to be picked ? ie : you need to turn the key clockwise to unlock a blade, that would allow you to rotate anti-clockiwise to unlock the core. However while going back to center, if any pin is not anymore in the right position, the blade springs back locking the core again ?
Maybe if you ensure that the long 2nd pin is the first binder, it would be difficult to set the pins behind it without oversetting the 2nd pin in order to reach the pins behind and if you try to recover from oversetting this pin you would drop the others again.
How is a keyway like this milled into the core? I can see how you’d make either half, if you’d make it in two halves, but I don’t think they do that, right?
Nowadays its probably done with an wire EDM machine for really complex keyways. Uses electricity and a wire to cut with almost no kerf. Otherwise they are most likely broached (kind of like punching with a die).
Yale have been doing No2 pin very deep for a long time it is where drunks always manage to break the key off in the door dont i know it got brassed of with geting them in .
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![[285] Two Registered Mail "Counter" Padlocks Picked and Gutted](/img/tr.png)
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![[702] The Naughty Bucket Chronicles - Mauer NW5 Euro Profile Cylinder Picked and Gutted](/img/n.gif)
It's been over a year; do we get to see the updated prototype?
Scott Williams came here to comment this
Still nothing?
jjs4x nah man he lied :(
Please!
Was just about to ask the same question
a year passes, and urbanhawk is still perfecting the prototype.
Another year waiting for the perfected prototype...
@@nicolascuellonunez812 damn, seriously? I was gonna search the second part of this video
Marco Murgia for real bro 🤦🏽♂️. I’ve followed LPL for more than two years and we’d never got that video made shm
Dang i really wanted to see th 2nd part
Nearly 3 years passed 🤔
I would really like to see you pick Euro-Profile cylinders in their respective correct orientation, which is 180° flipped from how American locks are mounted. Meaning "top of the keyway" is "bottom of the keyway" for us.
Why would that make a difference in picking?
@@An0niem4 You need to work in the complete opposite direction and can't rely on gravity to let the keypins fall back down and clear of the sheer line.
@@BlackThanator Pins are kept under spring pressure, right?
@@An0niem4 Yes, but the key pins are not.
Well, we all know that because of "manufacturing tolerances" each lock has a certain order in which the pins must be set. I bet UrbanHawk is going to manipulate this to force the #2 pin to be set first; once it is, there's no way to raise pin 3 (in particular) because there's no clearance. (For example, if you slightly chamfer the holes in the cylinder for pins 3-5 they will always set after the non-chamfered pins). Hence the name - Pin 2 becomes a Pin Blocker, preventing access to the pins behind.
EDIT - rather than a chamfer, a countersink might work better - a chamfer could allow a partially-picked pin to "ride up the hill", a straight-sided countersink would prevent this.
Mark Phillips
That would be my guess and Ive always thought forcing a pair of guarded pins to be the first two binders, would be maddening.
Can anybody manufacture or find a way to countersink/chamfer the 3-5 holes inside the barrel. I mean this kind of barrel cannot be made by cutting out metal, only way is to 3d print such barrel (with countersink hole on inside surface.
@@vikasbrijkaushly7278 That's actually entirely possible to machine, it would just be very expensive. You'd need an undercut tool to do it, and circular interpolate the holes. It's doable, just expensive and slow. :)
For more fun, how about a chamfer leading away from the end of the driver, so that a partially picked pin would "ride down the hill" away from a set position?
That's my guess too
driver pin no 2 will be spooled
I had to think for a second, then LOLed. 👍
I had a thought of this as well; Make a driver pin with a spool and fits the entire core without a spring on it. So if you get the others open it will not go past the false set unless you release all tension and let the pin drop, effectively spoiling any potential picks.
@@lockpickinglawyer when will the final version be shown?
That would be amazing. Maybe some trickery with under cuts as well?
@@lockpickinglawyer any updates
1:00 It's a "key-component"
quality puns
Great picking brother. Looking forward to seeing Urbanhawks finished product on this one. Thanks for the review!
First time I've seen the lock gutted that way- makes me hiope you will do a re-assembly video!
Am I the only European with a slightly itch in the brain because each time he works with a europrofile lock he puts it upside down according to how they use to be installed?
Nope, you'r not.
me too :-)
no it hurts the brain looking at it being picked the wrong way up :s
And they also call it "top of the key way"😁😂
Nope, same here!
Nice! I just saw his 1st talk at Def Con? a few years ago. It was actually very good, imo.
Very cool.. looking forward to the next one. Cheers!
So, when will we get an update?
I'm very interested to see a conclusion.
Does anyone know if there's an update after this one? Preferably with a link?
The number two pin is going to be purposefully made as the first pin to be set, then, it’ll block access to the other pins, which can’t be set until the number two pin is set
My guess is - or was (no follow up still) - the three pin will always be set very high, and would leave the left warding intact, making it hard to get the pick up from the bottom. We may never know.
It also seemed at 9:21 that only half of the pins are actually visible which could make single picking even more difficult. Overall, I'd say this this lock is not more pick resistant other than requiring high dexterity due to somewhat limited access to pins.
That is a neat key, bet it will age nicely
Dude!
😎love it can't wait to see the new design. 🌟⭐🌟⭐🌟😎
I won't confirm or deny.. LOL! The Glomar Explorer response :)
As a locksmith we avoid these deepest cuts in the first three pin chambers closest to the bow so the key is not broken too easily. There are a percentage of People who twist a key when inserting it and stress the key. I would place the zero lift to chamber 5.
I assume that’s why the key is so thick.
So the first cut /isn't/ the deepest.
is there a video where you explain the difference between a spool, serrated pin, normal pins, etc. while picking?
/watch?v=fMe2b6n2q-w
there is now.
Looking forward to the final product
Hmmm interesting 🤓
The macro focus is so good on this camera - does anybody know what kind it is?
pin in number 2 is flush with plug. finally some one has got it.
1st time seeing a euro picked. Sweet.
My guess is that the #2 keypin has a spool element that allows a sidebar or ball bearing to drop in unless it is overset. This would block the movement of pin 3, locking it in place so it can not be lifted to the shear line.
My guess would be some kind of trap tied into the zero cut pin. Something that even checking pin 2 causes it to fall into the trap, unless binding order is perfect. I have no idea what that could be & I didn't say it was a good guess. 😂
Need to make sure that second pin always binds first so you can't just push it out of the way to pick the other pins first! Standard pins on the second pin and T pins on the others?
I had a particularly evil idea that is similar, but perhaps even more scary to pick. Zero lift pins sticking deep enough into the lock, from both top and bottom, that there is no straight line path down the keyway whatsoever while the zero lift pins are set. Also, since the zero lift pins are standard and the functional pins are T-pins, the only way the cylinder can turn far enough for the functional pins to bind is if the zero lift pins are already set, which blocks access to lockpicks. The key for such a lock would be zig-zag shaped.
A spring actuator to dissociate the other side of the lock unless a key is present with anti bypass design along with core holes at 11 and 13 o'clock to allow driver pins to fall into it if the key is not present. Rendering the lock inoperable at a false set in either direction. Anti drill pins.
This guy would be a great narrator!!
Did he ever release the revised version of this?
No
Never made passed the prototype or rejected the project all together.
Is the low cut number two pin supposed to be slightly bigger diameter so that you have to set it first, effectively blocking access to the pins behind it?
I’m not sure that a bigger diameter necessarily affects the binding order.
That's the most plausible answer. Basically if you set the pin as low as possible, and have the following pin as close to MACS as possible, and not drilling through the warding on the 3rd pin, you effectively make the lock almost impossible to pick. Making pin 2 wider as well, means you wouldn't be able to drop pick it either, as the other pins would drop first.
Here I was thinking I was smart and you've got a year old video about somebody who already came up with the same idea. If UrbanHawk ever sends you that second prototype with the #2 pin setting first and forcing you to pick the back pins from the side, it would be great to see how effective it is.
My guess is that you won't be able to tension the lock with #2 lowered even a bit. (Maybe #2 will be slightly tigther to achieve this?) That way you either (1) keep #2 untouched and then you can't access #3--#6 or (2) you won't be able to pick #3--#6 as the pins wouldn't ever be binding.
But when you insert the key, you set all pins to the correct position including #2, and then everything works. The point is, I don't believe that traps is what LPL has in mind, traps are fine but somehow useless if the owner has to drill the lock after an unsuccessful picking.
I think a heavy spring tension along with an evil bidding, perhaps with warding along the pin stacks would be pretty hard to pick.
Heavy spring tension would require a heavy duty pick, but a challenging warding that only a .015 pick could fit inside. It wouldn't be able to move the pins because of the extra spring tension
What do you think @LockPickingLawyer ?
With that warding it would be perfect to have a max depth cut, so it would overlift as soon as it is touched, and use the macs to make pin 3 hard to set.
As the DIN is mounted upside down, a driver is needed in chamber 2.
Can the plugs in the top be punched out for rekeying, or is a special loading tool needed ? With the balanced pin stack it is nice to punch the plugs through and fit them back in after loading pins and springs on a double cylinder
Why even pick , that is non snap proof lock , it takes some basic tools and its open in 10 sec when it snaps in half .
Bet Ramset would beat that lock by shooting the lock it may snap in half too .
weakest point is that hole in middle and when thats not forged steel its not a good lock .
Here some scary ad about it from 2013
czcams.com/video/88m_Hk5ipI8/video.html
Pete Lind there are many faceplate designs to protect a DIN cylinder from snap and the core from being pulled out.
The deal here is to protect against NDE without any signs. Causing insurrance claims problems
And this is a proto item. The final could be made from stainless steel. This is a test of Security technics
there is one big problem with low spots on a key like you mention and i have had that issue myself the key is more prone to bending and fracturing! so it may be harder to pick but its more likely to break the key.
fortunately for me it didnt break in the lock so i bought as new one and replaced the lock it was a euro style similar to what you have here
Hey, looking forward to it :) Any updates yet?
Probably not the first to say it, but I'm imagining something like the kwikset (I think) modification you showcased a while ago where picking pin 2 incorrectly will let the core turn, but a smaller second driver will drop into a trap hole and effectively permanently brick the lock.
What would be nice with that kind of system would be a way to reset it. Something simple like a rod from the inside that could push the "bricking" pin back.
I'm assuming that the proper design would be a tweak to the warding such that it'd be impossible to pick the back pins without disturbing the max depth pin in chamber 2.
I was thinking of doing something similar with a KW1 keyway, extending the chambers for position #1 and #3 though the warding where they would normally sit so as to let the pins in those chambers spots reach all the way to the warding, but *not* extending the holes for any other pins so as to allow picking them from below the warding. A couple of other essential features not present here would be the use of flat-topped key pins in the super-low-cut spots, but slightly bottle-shaped upper pins everywhere else. The flat-top keys could have a very slight taper at top, but the minimum diameter should be well above the "neck" diameter of the bottle-shaped pins. Key insertion would be slightly awkward since the point of the key would have to be lower than usual, which would mean the front of the lock would guide the key to the wrong place, but otherwise I think even a stock KW1 keyway, adjusted in under a minute with a pin-sized drill. should pose a challenge.
An essential requirement for pick resistance would be that the sides of the bottle necks not be able to reach the edges of the chambers except when key pins for the two lowest cuts are in their lowest position. Having shoulders on the bottle-shaped pins would help them fall into place and lock the cylinder in the correct position to guide the flat-top pins into the bible.
Idk why but that key is so beautiful
The keyway looks so familiar ;), almost like on some Burgwaechter padlocks. I love that prototype key haha :D. Some Euro cylinders do actually not have the holes drilled through the warding completely, so it is very very hard to set very high pins in the back protected by lower ones in front of them on these. I've had locks with so high pins that even the deepest hooks could not reach high enough or simply couldn't get in position (a tight paracentric keyway makes it even harder). I'm very curious how Urban Hawk's finished cylinder will look like, he's a smart guy :).
It is similar to the BW... like the Gamma 700? What Euro cylinders have shallow drilled holes... now that you mention it, it seems familiar, but I can’t place where I saw it. Maybe Mauer?
Yes, it looks almost identical like on the 600/700, just reversed and the last top bit is not angled. Many cylinders with a Yale or mirrored Yale style keyway (Zeiss Ikon, ZI, ERA, Vachette aso...) have the holes not drilled through (you can of course pick the from the side ledge, but it's not always comfortable and bitting can make it hard). I have on the other hand a 5 pin round double cylinder from BKS, which has the holes drilled through, but the pins are so low that you can't pick from the side and from the bottom you can't get them high enough (even not with the ssdevs or other deep picks I have)...a nightmare, but I've not yet given up ;) (very similar experience with other old BKS and Zeiss locks...). 👋🦊
My guess is they drilled too deep through the warding on pins 3,4,5,&6.
DN Hunziker I think you are absolutely right!
Kinda like with the Abus XP1 or TS5000
Cant wait to see the real deal.
Guessing that the first set of pins is riding on a floating element (wedge?) of some sort that sits in that very odd groove in the key. That hole through the key makes me think it’s there intentionally for lining up a floating element that maybe the pins sit on top of, so you need to manipulate the floating element as a single object to get the lift/angle perfect to set those pins.
Lucas' lock rocks.
I don’t know why but I really like that key design
Still hoping for an update on the new version of this core!
What's the frequency, Kenneth? Any update?
Are CZcams pushing this video once a year to make sure we keep nagging? 😏
Interesting lock. Where's the final version? He's a cool guy, I met him and bought some locks from him. 🍺😎
One question I had in my mind for a while... do you think (with your experience) you could design a pin tumbler lock that you couldn't pick yourself? ;)
No if it's got a key there is a way to mimic that key threw the art of lock picking
@Michael Persico It is possible to make a lock he could open with the key, gut it, learn it, then be unable to pick because certain obstructions prevent him from reaching some key components.
Awsome as usual! What gutting kit was that bud🤔
Thanks... it’s from Peterson.
You always pick these euro profile cylinders upside down from the way they would be installed in practice, does that make a difference in the picking?
You could force pin 2 to bind first, so there will be no way to access the pins at the back without oversetting pin 2. You would have to use some sort of pick that wrap around the warding while picking...
Nicely picked. Looking forward to the next one. You pick it. I no you will.lol Jon...
That key looks beautiful idk why.. it just is...
was there ever a follow up to this video?
Seems like you may be planning a zero-lift pin to resist bumping? Would also make back pin access hard especially with that evil warding...
Do you commonly bend really thin hooks when dealing with security pins? I bought a set of nice thin Rytan picks and trying to pick an adversary lock, I commonly find myself bending the hooks (vertically, not horizontally). I should say that I suck at security pins, so I suspect I'm just doing it wrong and this method I'm using just requires too much force.
Scott Gartner lighten up on the tension.. broken picks happen always use the thickest pick you can slide into the keyway to lift those pins.
Not often... but I did when I started picking. Thousands of hours picking later, I have a better feel for what a pick can endure.
First, great picking LPL. My guess is that the pin holes will not go through the key warding. Preventing exactly what you did here. That way any pick you try to use off the warding would overset that low pin and it’s all over.
Albert Lebel yeah, it looks like the key has three grooves along it, so I'm thinking split pins if that's even possible. That would be insane to see.
I wonder if the 2nd key pin will be heavily serrated with a sharp lip on the bible so it catches if it's even slightly lifted under tension.
Could he be adding in a pin blocker of some type?
lolol
Year 2! Give it up for Year 2!
Ya is there an update to this video? Did he ever finish his lock?
I would think a keyhole slot (think woodworking frame hangar, look up keyhole router bits of you need the visual) cut radially a ways around the perimeter, with those spool pins, and that warding would be extremely difficult to pick
Some lock makers have done that by sleeving the core. Ruko comes to mind immediately, though they haven’t done that in a while.
My guess is better warding to prohibit picking from the bottom
Is any updated version of this lock...
Do you have any videos that show you reassembling any of these lock cores?
Well, as long as you can snap the lock in the middle, it doesnt matter how pick resistant it is. Anyway,By any chance, could you show us Abus 20/80 picking ? :) or any destructive way? U showed this abus in one of your vids, but that time you said u cant pick it
My apartment building had keys with a low cut 1 or 2 pin like this key. The keys kept twisting off at that point and the lock company kept charging us for new keys. The landlord finally got rid of those keys and replaced them with keys that didn't have this feature.
Will the pins be set at different "heights", so that the #2 pin will be low, sort of "blocking" the pins further back from any raking or picking attempts? If that's what it is... how would the key get past it?
Zeet,
Think about the difference between picking a lock, and using a key.
When you use a key. all the pins are lifted to their correct positions AND HELD THERE! so as you turn the cylinder, all the pins stay at the shear line.
But when you pick a lock, you are just getting the pins to catch on the shear line - you aren't holding them all in place as you turn the cylinder.
A key would have no problem - as it slides past the low-cut pin it will push it higher than its set position, but once the key is properly in place, all the pins will be pushed back so they align with the shear.
I would like to see you put them back together too.
Is the follow-up video still planned?
What vice are you using? It looks perfect for locksport!
Late reply, but do a search for "suction vise", there are many available based on this and similar designs.
8:40 with no driver pin, you'd risk destroying the spring I reckon
Multi rotational cylinders?
I would put a zero lift spool as a key pin in #2 without a spring so that everytime a pick touches it you get a false set yet you'd never get an open.
When are going to start making locks?
The key process looks a little like a very tight BiLock. I'm thinking #2 will be a hybrid Medeco/ splitpin. (A wag)
@LockPickingLawyer when are we getting an update?
@LockPickingLawyer Why do you always mount locks upside-down, is it more convenient to pick like that?
As someone who just started, can confirm it is sometimes easier. I have a better time picking upside down than right side up
My guess (in 2022) is that the low number two pin is going to be so long, that a comb-pick would not be able to push it all the way up above the sheer line.
Has there been any update regarding this lock?
Also I'm theorizing it's gonna be pin 2 is gonna be pin-in-pin, with the outer pin being the lowest cut and the inner pin being the highest cut it can have
nope
Wafers and t-pins with construction key holes as per video #527?
i think ik y 2 is a low cut. in the nrxt prototype, i presume hes gonna have Pin 2 be the last Binding pin when picking or be a pain to get a pick around it. I recomend that he should thread/undercut the chambers and polish the chambers as much as possible ti minimuze feedback from the pick. Lastly, i recommend he try an ASSA pin, the german pins with the hovering washers (serated thst r not attached to pin. Ball baring pins, and pin in pins
T key pin on 3 for overset. Also spool on driver pin 3.
Nobody has ever built a core that requires tension on both way to be picked ? ie : you need to turn the key clockwise to unlock a blade, that would allow you to rotate anti-clockiwise to unlock the core. However while going back to center, if any pin is not anymore in the right position, the blade springs back locking the core again ?
Maybe if you ensure that the long 2nd pin is the first binder, it would be difficult to set the pins behind it without oversetting the 2nd pin in order to reach the pins behind and if you try to recover from oversetting this pin you would drop the others again.
Won't the driver pin in #2 make the lock harder to bump?
So, was the follow up on this ever done?
How many locks do you have in your collection!
*01:00* "That's a key component to the system."
Seriously? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
8.Oct.2020
Can You drill through an Anti drill steel pin?
Way late I’m sure, and probably wrong too, but perhaps the low one blocks access to the ones behind it?
How is a keyway like this milled into the core? I can see how you’d make either half, if you’d make it in two halves, but I don’t think they do that, right?
Nowadays its probably done with an wire EDM machine for really complex keyways. Uses electricity and a wire to cut with almost no kerf.
Otherwise they are most likely broached (kind of like punching with a die).
Prototypes are wire EDM'd, production locks are broached with progressive broaches. Makes the keyway in a couple of seconds.
Yale have been doing No2 pin very deep for a long time it is where drunks always manage to break the key off in the door dont i know it got brassed of with geting them in .
7:40 tfw the springs are tougher to deal with than the warding
I dunno, I just wanna see what all the hoo-ha is about!🍺😎
Whatever happened to urbanhawk and the evolution of this lock.
Got any locks with magnets inside them ?
Jeezus LPL...how?....just how...? Were you Houdini in a previous lifetime?