The National Park Service Threatens to FINE You If You Drive THESE Cars Off-Road!
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- čas přidán 9. 09. 2024
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( www.alltfl.com ) Watch more videos from TFL Studios! In this video, Andre and Roman cover a recent letter a driver received about taking their AWD car on a "high clearance 4x4" trail...and the consequences of future "violations".
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Maybe they need to create a large mound of dirt/rocks at the beginning of the trail with a sign. "If you can't make it over this your vehicle is not qualified to go any further."
Agree. Just make gatekeeper type obstacles
@@kirklins8411 many trails already have gatekeepers. If you can get through the gatekeeper and you’re undaunted, then have at it.
GATEKEEPERS
Some trails have a boulder speed pump blocking the trail entrance
Kind of like the amusement park rides that say you need to be xx” tall to go on the ride
Hilarious that the Park Service vehicle is an AWD Ford Explorer with low ground clearance
They don’t go on those trails or do they? 🤔🤣
I was in the BLM near canyon lands with a FWD car... I also used to scramble over rocks on trails that have taken out people's diffs and oil pans on 1500 trucks at one of my jobs.
But yeah I never thought it would be good to do moab trails.
I think ground clearance sucks on everything unless you modified it. 6~8" on nearly everything made other than Raptors and similar trucks.
Difference is they know where they are going and what they can make it over and where. They are not the weekend warrior that goes out just for a hike.
I had a FPIU AWD as a deputy in Nevada. We would take them everywhere in a 3,500 sq mile rural county, even going to people that got stuck. But we knew the trails and roads and where to stay out of when we had to.
Because they are truly Hypocrites the police😮
@@middleburg11Correct.
If you have to ask yourself the question: "is my vehicle considered a high clearance 4x4" ...it probably isn't.
I'm only asking cause my truck has 4 motors. By their definition this excludes the Hummer EV and quad motor Rivians which are super capable but don't fall into tradition 4x4 classification
@@jake-ly for sure, any definition that gets cited in these comments would precede the recent production of multi motor EV's. I doubt a ranger with the FS would send a similar write up to someone driving a Hummer EV or Rivian. Time will tell on where rules will fall on some of these, like the hummer and cybertruck because of what they weigh. I could see weight restriction on some of these trails in the future.
I see minivans on top of mountains in Utah, these people either don't care or are just fuc**** stupid.
I have a Land Rover LR4 but it doesn't have the HD package. No low range, and no locking diffs (uses a center torsion diff). And I definitely wouldn't bring it there.
@@jake-lythe hummer ev weighs as much as a loaded semi 😂 if you need to be towed out you deserve massive fines for the giant wrecker it will take.
How about a sign that says, "if you get stuck, it's your ass!"
yes, but now you're defying statism aka satan
It's not the getting stuck, watch any video of AWDs 'offroad' takes a lot of wheel spin which damages the trails.
@@fun0537 That would be part of "it's your ass!" the person would be responsible for their actions. being responsible means covering any cost of recovery and repairing any damage to the trail that they did. too many nanny laws these days. personal responsibility needs to make a come back.
They should I've gone down a trail that's said if you need help it may not come and you may be responsible for costs of rescue and in AZ we have a stupid driver law like if you drive into water and get stuck they can bill you for the rescue but that still doesn't help the people who are then stuck behind the person no blocking the trail cuz they can't make it and shouldn't have been there.
Utah has those. But why they dont have more tow trucks? Matt's seems to do everything.
According to the National Park Service, a high clearance vehicle is defined as a SUV or truck type vehicle, with at least 15” tire rims or more, with a low gear transfer case, designed for heavier type use than a standard passenger vehicle, with at least 8” of clearance or more from the lowest point of the frame, body, suspension, or differential, to the ground, also including means of mechanically powering both front and rear wheels at the same time.
This spells it out pretty clear. If you don't have this don't use the trails marked as such.
Good info, thanks.
15" tire rims or more? That is odd, many street cars have larger than 15" wheels. Most AWD cars do. I'm surprised they don't specify tire size minimum. What does "MECHANICALLY powering both front and rear wheels at the same time." mean? Honda Ridgelines and Pilots transfer power to the front and rear wheels at the same time, but does that qualify as mechanical?
Where do they say this and do they do post this at the restricted sites?
Yes that would be mechanical but it doesn’t matter because they don’t have a high/low transfer case so the car does not qualify.
I didn’t buy my Outback XT for climbing steep, rocky trails in Moab. I bought it to track confidently on snowy roads in Maryland winters and get me through muddy sections of back country roads after the snow melts. People forget what a “purpose built” vehicle constitutes and what a true 4x4 system with lockers is designed for as opposed to an AWD system.
Exactly. I run a Suzuki SX-4 AWD that is set-up with a 3 inch lift and larger tires. I live in Colorado and would not run this on a "Jeep" trail. But a dirt All Weather Road in a blizzard, NO PROBLEM.
Exactly the right vehicle for the road & conditions you need it for. Off-road trails are for pourpose built vehicles.
Yeah but now that you're in Florida you can at least pull out of an bog.....😂👍
As someone who drives a Subaru, this warning must be inforced given Subaru's market share with first time outdoors adventure vehicle owners don't understand the difference between AWD vs 4x4. I would never take my Subaru down anything other than a forest road. Just because you have a "wilderness" badge on the side of your Subaru doesn't mean it can do what a Jeep Wrangler can go.
A 4x4 Jeep without lockers is just an AWD. The difference needs to be the presence of lockers on all 4 wheels or not.
I have a Outback Wilderness with Rival4x4 1/4 skid plates and we have had it on 4/10 trails with no issues. These cars are very capable with a decent driver. My Dodge Caravan could do "forest roads" so no need to waste my time on one with the Outback. I have these same ground clearance as the RTD 4runner. Plus of all the 4wds I have ever had, I have never used 4lo.
@@Awol991modern Jeeps don't need lockers, the traction control system will stop a wheel from spinning if it loses traction, causing that torque to go to the other wheel
@@dougjones9698 The Subaru AWD vehicles that are some of the vehicles targeted by this have a similar traction control system to shift the torque. You just made my point, thanks.
@@Awol991 as I understand it, and correct me if I'm wrong, they are different. The Subarus use some witchcraft to transfer torque through all four wheels.
Clearly not an automotive engineer here. My 2006 Jeep Liberty apparently has open diffs.
As I understand open differentials if a wheel loses traction it will just spin and the other wheel does nothing, but in my system the traction control would apply that brake and make the other wheel turn.
It seems to me the locking differential is unneeded if the system works, but I admit not being experienced at off roading. Please tell me if and how I'm wrong.
Dumping motor and gear oil or antifreeze all over the countryside after ripping the bottom of your unprotected undercarriage with a big rock isn’t cool for the environment.
Amen
Ok, so fine people when that happens instead of this BS.
There’s the environmental impact of spills and excessive trail damage from ill equipped vehicles and the safety factor for drivers that take these vehicles into terrain they aren’t engineered to survive which speaks to the driver’s skills when making that decision. I wouldn’t take a beginner skier down a black diamond trail. They cold hurt themselves or others. Published fines may offer a deterrent where a simple “don’t be stupid” sign won’t.
I agree, but that’s only if it happens.
@@michaelsielian235that’s a dramatic hypothetical
Many parks have very strict guidance for off-road driving. They don't want to be busy rescuing people for being poorly prepared.
My off-road truck (yes, a real 4x4) is better prepared than I'll probably ever be...I hope that's enough to qualify. ;-)
They tear up the track when they get stuck for no reason and dig massive holes
True the lazy azz 👮🏻 only want to rescue overly prepared divers.. It’s ok if they screw up
They are trying to reduce off-road access to a smaller and smaller group by intimidation/discouragement so that when they ban it there will be fewer people affected to object to the closures. They have removed the 4x4 trails from the park maps for the same reason.
Regardless of 4WD or AWD, the biggest reason people tend to get stuck is because they don't understand how these systems work. This is especially true for the Traction Control systems in modern vehicles, and that by momentarily turning off Traction Control, it will allow most vehicle to be driven out of a stuck situation.
And tires, especially in Moab. If you watch Matt's off road recovery, you know a noob on the sand by the fully inflated tires to on road pressures
Spot on
Some brands make this even more confusing by labeling AWD cars 4WD.
Toyota did that throughout the 90's, and even until the 2012 RAV4.
Cough, cough Bronco Sport cough, cough
So your escalated with awd is not allowed 😂
Several models of jeep crossovers have 4x4 labels on their awd systems.
@@damilolaakanniThe RAV4 had the ability to lock up the rear tires with the front via a switch on the dash. Basically manual override of the automatic awd system. I remember driving a few and there was a 4x4 Lock button or something like that.
I like the idea I saw from another offroad account. If it is 4wd only, put in a gate keeper. You cant pass the gate keeper, you don’t belong on the trail. Easy as that.
What is a "gate keeper"?
@@nickknack5884 A gatekeeper is an obstacle that would prevent vehicles without a minimum level of capability from entering the trail.
@@nickknack5884A gatekeeper is a man made obstacle at the start of a trail that mimics the most difficult part of the main trail. The idea being if you can get through the gatekeeper you can get through the trail, and more importantly if you can't get through the gatekeeper you should not attempt the trail.
💯 this is good trail design.
Put in an uphill bolder path or a ledge obstacle that indicates:
A) This is the start of "the trail" and
B) Your day will go a lot smoother if you have F&R diff locks to go with your 35's.
With enough room for tow vehicles to park nearby, and for Subaru owners to park and unload their mountain bikes.😉👍
@@OdyTypeR and big ad board from local offroad tow truck service!
What if your AWD identifies as a 4WD? Checkmate, government.
Trust the science
This is going to be held up in the court system for years. For now, better to stick with a JT in 4wd.
I mean there are odd ball SUVs like that, but they’re certainly not from this country. 90’s Prado is AWD, but has a central Tcase for 4X4HI/Lo. Since Im going to drive in some state parks we’ll see how this argument goes if the park service comes over to chat.
My Prius identifies as a mountain goat
@@GTIFabric i mean when I lived in CO, I definitely saw a couple Prius’ on 4WD trails in Como. Still wondering how they got those things up there when there were multiple wheel deep water crossings.
Ford calls the Bronco Sport a 4x4 and “4 wheel drive” vehicle all over in its marketing and manual, despite being technically a AWD.
That being said, the badlands has the rear locking differential, and it’s defiantly marketed to go off road. I can see why people would be confused and this rule isn’t clearly defined.
Can the Bronco Sport not lock into 4wd via clutches?
If the clutches are the problem then you need to exclude virtually every half ton truck or full size SUV made in the last 10 years since they are all using clutch based full-time transfer cases that lock up the clutches when you put them in 4x4hi or lo
@@Jay-me7gw the rules says that the front and rear wheels have to be “mechanically driven”, ie gears in a transfer case. Clutches are viscously coupled. That is what differentiates 4wd from awd, by the NPS rules. But it also says 4wd with low range.
We just need a new term that both 4WD transfer cases and a locked center diff qualify as, like “locking axles”; then, if you can demonstrate that the electric motors can be locked without slip between the “axles”, it would also qualify without needing to meet outdated criteria that misses the intent of the rule\phrase.
Jeep wranglers are on of the only true 4x4 left, solid axles and physically locking 4x4 where the bronco and other picks have electronic 4x4s and the computer decides if you get to stay in it or not, with the jeep, you put it in 4x4 and its not coming out unless you take it out.
No, the definition of a 4-wheel drive vehicle is clearly defined. Your ignorance of the definition doesn't mean it's confusing. Here you go - direct from the National Park Service website:
DEFINITION
A four wheel drive vehicle is defined as a sport utility vehicle (SUV) or truck with at least 15-inch tire rims and at least eight inches of clearance from the lowest point of the frame, body, suspension, or differential to the ground. Four wheel drive vehicles have a transfer case between the front and rear axles that locks the front and rear drive shafts together when four wheel drive is engaged. All wheel drive (AWD) vehicles do not meet this definition.
I drove a stock Crosstrek up the trail to Loch Lomond a bunch of years ago...and it made it up there! But the car did NOT like the ride up and I count myself lucky nothing happened. I would never make the trip again.
This law would prevent dummies like me from making this mistake and causing a whole mess on a very narrow trail, ruining both my day and everyone else's. Im all for it!
Mandatory equipment should be off-road tires that can withstand punctures well and are above a certain minimum profile/thickness, minimum ground clearance, and a low range box.
But what do i know, im just a dummy taking subarus where they should never go 😅
at least you can acknowledge your ignorance!
We’ve all made mistakes, and sometimes we even learn from them. 👍🤪🏳️🌈
SSSSOOOooo, no to my manual Impreza...😂
Texas big bend in early may. 10am, temperature was already 107° and rising. We were traveling a the River Road East to West, following the Rio Grande parallel to the Mexican Border. We were in a very well-built JEEP 4-Door wrangler. I'm a retired soldier and experienced off-road from small M-151s to hummers to cargo trucks to medium tracked vehicles. The JEEP A/C was working well. We always carry an extra 10-gallon fuel pod on the rear tire carrier and an emergency 5-gallons of water in a tank built into the rear bumper. For me, I only used 4X4-high on this road for the increased traction affording less damage to the terrain. On 12.5 x 35 tires at 14-PSI - 2X4 would have worked 90% of the time. The high clearance and deep sand were the only issues. I do not recall needing the F and R lockers at all.
There are HUGE 4' x 8' signs at every point where the pavement ends stating HIGH-CLEARANCE 4X4 ONLY. This is very desolate terrain and forget about cell phones. About 10 miles in we discovered a black Pontiac Solstice with NY license plates. The vehicle had two flat tires from spinning the wheels trying to get unstuck. Inside we discovered a woman, delirious from dehydration.
Fortunately, the ham radio VHF was able to get over the mountains to another operator about 60 miles away. He called the rangers on the phone and they dispatched an emergency crew to the Lat/Lon location I provided. It took them nearly 2 hours to get there. Having plenty of water, we kept this woman in the back seat of our rig to cool her and let her slowly drink water.... and when the ranger crew arrived we handed her off and let them deal with the situation. Once they saved her life, I hope they impounded her vehicle and fined the shit out of her. Another Darwin near-miss.
This is a prime example of what the park service is talking about. This woman had gotten stuck about noon the day before, she was nearly gone. 22 hours in the West Texas desert with little water and no food. Had we not come across her I feel certain she would have died that day, becoming another page in the book named Death In Big Bend. Yes, that is a real book, and interesting reading of you visit West Texas in the summer.... as an example of things not to do.
I don't know what the selection criteria should be for deciding what vehicles on what trails. But I see the need. To be clear, my 2015 JKU-R Hard Rock rates a Hard-7. But my butt-hole is only rated for a Moderate-5. That keeps me out of trouble, I long ago quit wondering if I could "make it over there"?
She would have easily died out there for sure.
Story sounds made up.
This is exactly why the park service does its best to make and enforce its regulations. I am a SAR member in Moab, UT with 2 national parks in my backyard. People come here on vacation and sometimes never make it home. It kinda sucks for us responders, too. Thank you so much for saving that woman.
Agree with everything in this comment except where it says “well built Jeep” which surely is an oxymoron.
i wonder what she was thinking in a 2 seat convertible
Per the NPS Website: "A high clearance 4WD vehicle is defined as a SUV or truck type vehicle, with at least 15 inch tire rims or more, with a low gear transfer case, designed for heavier type use than a standard passenger vehicle, with at least 8 inches of clearance or more from the lowest point of the frame, body, suspension, or differential, to the ground, also including a means to mechanically power both, front and real wheels at the same time."
So by this definition, The only Crossover that would fit this would be a Cherokee Trailhawk. Guess next time I go to Moab, I can't take my Jeep Patriot, dang.
The Subaru has 17" wheels and over 8" of ground clearance on the Wilderness trim. Check mate!
@@PleiadesPowerall subaru crossovers have at least 8.7 inches of clearance lol
Depends on what year and model Subaru you are referencing. There was a time that not all were offered that are still driven today came with that minimum clearance.... BTW, I bought my first new Subaru in 1984 and still own it. A GL Brat. And I do not consider a serious off-roader, but it is a very fun vehicle to cruise around in and take to car shows and meets. In factory form it does not reach that 8.7" threshold. But it does exceed the 8" clearance I mentioned coming in at 8.1".
My 1996 Outback came in at 7.6" ground clearance was a family hauler/commuter which I traded in when I later bought my 2005 Baja that had 8.4" g.c..
Only my 2024 Outback Wilderness is the leader in this category at 9.5" g.c. and is a champ when traversing off-road so far..
@PleiadesPower I was referring to the modern crossovers since you mentioned the wilderness specifically. All modern subaru crossovers have at least 8.7 inches of clearance, with the wilderness trims having between 9.2 and 9.5 depending on which one.
@@JDS-Dalton Fair enough. Since I own and wrench on multi-generations of Subarus that I own, I take them all into account... Enjoy your off-road adventures!
If you use the low range test, then a lot of GM pickups won't pass. They have been cheaping out and putting transfer cases without low range for a while.
Really? Even in full sized trucks and SUV's?
If so, that's horribly cheap, but I can believe it coming from GM.
Literally every GM trucks i've been in had a low range, from a 93 S-10 to a 2024 Silverado.
@@maximeparent3004I don’t know if it’s still a thing but I remember a few years ago the low range was an option on the gm pickups. You got it standard on higher trim but not on a lower level 4wd.
@@JustinG9698 yes the 2 speed transfer case is an option, but available on any trim level, and it usually comes with a locking rear differential and some skid plates. Almost every trucks on the lot gets ordered with them. I have a base Silverado with cloth seats, not even a Z/71 or trail boss, and it came with the off-road package.
So don’t buy a GM pickup. That right there, along with the lack of a fuel tank greater than 24 gallons, is 100% when I would never touch a current GM 1500.
The old timey "high clearance vehicles only" was from a time when people had common sense. Now we're in a time where people are lacking common sense and boisterous with their attitude, thinking that their $70,000 vehicle should be able to go anywhere, when it's really just designed for slippery obstacles. This basically it's just meant to enforce the common sense side of people not going places they shouldn't be with the vehicle that they have in order to keep them safe.
Meanwhile some guy with a hodge podge farmer welded pile of shit can go in there and get stuck any day of the week...
Makes no sense.
its so they can get likes
@@sktonathere are some old Subaru in Australia that have low range you know.
Common sense is not common.
If trails are to be restricted, that should be based on actual capabilty, NOT nomenclature. The term "AWD" entered the mainstream U.S. vernacular roughly four decades ago with the increading popularity of full-time four wheel drive SUVs that weren't derived from pickup trucks.
Here come that Honda ridgeline guys to tell us about their TRUCK😂
I can't stand those things. The new ones look nicer, but are still an Odyssey underneath. The first gen were a hard choice in most ugly 'truck' ever, tied with the Avalanche.
@@JF-lt5zc Or Cybertruck. That thing is ugly.
@@donaldwilson2620 Garbage dumpster.
Nah, Ridgeline guys just go about their business with their reliable vehicle. It’s yall little insecure fellas that are the ones running your mouth and can’t pass up a chance to talk about ridgelines and cybertrucks that live rent free in your head.
Nah I had one and it was sad AF. Even my Subie has better ground clearance lol.
I have never understood why the USA is so jail happy. Weird. A fine I get, but jail?
Because it’s a misdemeanor it carries a “possible” jail sentence but it never happens for cases like these
The problem is that this isn't a law, it is a Park Superintendent Compendium. It's treated as a law because it carries fines and jail time under 36 CFR, however the Superintendent can arbitrarily change the definitions and regulations without legislative oversight. This is the same way, say the ATF can say something is legal one day then the next day it's illegal without the legislative body voting on it as a law. Congress undermined their own Constitutional authority and duty when they gave these government agency heads legislative authority.
we'll lock you up for taking a Honda CRV up a category 4 road, but you can steal all you want, as long as it doesn't go over a thousand dollars. This is the United States of Clown World.
No people will fellow the rules if there are no Penalty.
It's the "No Subarus" rule. Maybe Subaru will consider making true 4WD now.
Subarus AWD is better than my old trucks 4wd aka 2wd... lol
New vs old, so duh. Subaru should have added dual range and a rear locker a LONG time ago. Big waste of the platform.
@intox69
@@br9760 Sure, I still don't see why banning them from trails is justified.
@@intox69 Maybe they're a burden on resources like Rangers, and all emergency services.
@@Malc664 Maybe? or they are? Are some trucks also banned given what I said above?
I think one thing missed in this video is why they would want to ban awd vehicles? Short answer to protect the park and trail. We dont want cars bottoming out leaking fluids or parts all over and leaving the trails more destroyed. Its a privledge we get to off road on these amazing trails in National Parks.
Some of the AWD have much higher ground clearance and thus less likely to leak then many of the 4WD sold today.
@@edwardcorrado2541 Do they have 4 low for more control?
Amen
Thank god government is here to give us privileges.
@@Jb-uy5zx Yes. Thanks to government establishing and protecting these national parks, else corporations, private entities and rich billionaires would have bought and kept it off limit for common folks. See how Niagara Falls was like before it was (with a lot of difficulties) converted to state park. It's indeed a privilege. Rich propaganda has brainwashed common folks that the government that they can elect democratically is somehow worse than corporations.
I took a grand marquis down a "high clearance 4x4 only trail" to get to a campsite at Big Bend. Zero problems, had a great time. Its the driver not the vehicle.
🤨
@@Support_Ad_Blocker paint gap site #4
The driver can be a big difference, however you are eventually going to run into something that the vehicle just can't handle. This is what the Park Service is trying to avoid.
@windrider65 I can appreciate that. But again, it comes down to the driver. I had been down the trail to Paint Gap #4 before. I knew what was there, but I still walked it before i drove it to make sure nothing had changed since the last time I'd seen it. That's how I knew taking that Grand Marquis to that campsite was not going to be a problem despite the "high clearance 4x4 only sign."
In my opinion, the root of the problem is the novice idiot drivers. Not so much the vehicles they are driving.
It’s the positraction rearend 😉
“What are you in for?”
“Took the crosstrek off road” 💀
Nothing like following a Subaru at snail speeds that won’t pull over and let you pass.
I'm sure quite a few families and campers have gone out on a day or night trip and got stuck requiring emergency help. (911 - we are stuck in our Crosstrek and have 2 kids with us, night is coming and AAA won't help!)
just take a break for 30 minutes....then catch up to them in 5 minutes.
They even do that on highways, parking on the left lane like they own the road...
It's almost as good as being stuck behind somebody with their junkyard farmer welded broken tie rods and other junk getting in the way.
I get tailgated by tucks all the time while going the speed limit. If there’s a paved turn out or a passing lane I’ll use it. But I’m not going to go faster, I figure they should fix their local speed limit if they don’t like it, not getting a ticket due to an F350 thinking he’s driving a sports car. Especially amusing is when there’s plenty of highway to pass on, but they don’t have enough power to do it. 😂
Because we're tired of saving your ass when you get stuck or wreck your vehicle, especially the rentals.
I can't help but think that this has something to do with that doofus a couple of months back who drove off into a "No Motorized Vehicles" area in Death Valley.
He got stuck and pulled down and old tower extricating himself.
Exactly my thoughts too. Some Jack@$$ has to ruin it for everyone…
But my freedom…
Fine by me. It's kind of cringe watching the AWD vehicles spin, drag, and destroy their way up trails when the other 4x4 vehicles (low range transfer case vehicles) just walk over them. They should roll out an official rule set though so there is no confusion. 4x4 with low range transfer case needs to be clearly defined and clearly displayed.
@@oni-one574 it is clearly defined and displayed.
Ehh, my AWD VW Tiguan with the 8 spd auto has a much lower than normal 1st gear. It's 5.6:1.
To put that into perspective, the 5th Gen 4Runner transfer case's low range gear reduction is 2.5:1 with a 1st gear 3.5:1. That puts low gear at 8.75:1 crawl ratio.
That's not much different than my Tiguan in 1st gear. The key difference is, the 4Runner locks the front and rear axles when the transfer case is engaged. That's a HUGE advantage over most AWD vehicles.
That's the bigger reason why most AWD vehicles should stick to loose gravel. I will admit I've done some off-road adventures in my Tiguan, but I always know my limit.
No rules on the trails; a quick pit maneuver will clear the way from anyone going too slow. Always cover your plates before you hit the trail, makes it near impossible to catch you if there is no cell service to call it in.
@@Uberragen21 quick Google search shows a crawl ratio of 33.7:1 for v6 and v8 fifth gen 4Runners and 41.3:1 crawl ratio for 4 cylinder 4Runners. That compares to a crawl ratio of 18.6 on the Tiguan or 100:1 in a Jeep wrangler rubicon. A Tiguan would need a 10.12:1 first gear to have the same crawl ratio as the v6 4Runner.
you are part of the problem. Let the stupid suffer the consequences, but do STOP with the b.s "laws" that only serve the government !
Not that I disagree but this is to arbitrary. They need a standard, ground clearance, transfer case. 4x4 vs AWD is a huge grey area now.
Without that were left with the same old problem of cops having all the power, form jail to a warning based on their opinion or mood. Power without rules will lead to government overreach and with fines involved a huge motivation to punish people motivated by $$.
4x4 vs AWD is actually not a grey area at all!
It's not the vehicle, it's the operator...
They should just post a notice saying if you need emergency help by taking a "crossover" up the trail the cost will be on you.
I'm sure this didn't come from no where, the off road marketing on crossovers works and people get stuck and are unprepared and assume help is always a call away.
Police working with increasingly loose rules inevitably leads to more prejudice.
You need BOF, part time or center mechanical lock 4x4, and low range. Subaru has none of these.
I think it’s easy; if your wheels spin, you are damaging the trail and thus you get fined. If you need a rescue, you get fined AND you pay all related expenses.
If you can make it up the trail and back with no wheel spin in a Camaro with racing slicks, more power to you; if not, you pay the price in $$$ and in pride.
Slight correction. This (from the CFR) is not “legislation,” but rather a “regulation” or “rule” created by an administrative agency.
“Further the beaten path” is not meant to go in a trail that requires Low range…
The Honda “Trail blah blah blah” is also a LIFESTYLE vehicle….
4/10 doesn’t require low range
A wrangler is a lifestyle vehicle. It's just a different lifestyle. That's a stupid name.
Rented a Passport "HPD" a few years ago. What a joke. It was the worst nanny car I've ever driven. All I did was drive it around town for a week and I swore off Honda for ever.
By the Salt River in AZ I got stuck off roading. A guy came by with a winch, stressed out about how bad I was stuck saying he would try to help get my out. He kept saying "gow the hell did you even get a Chevy Impala out here?"
A great driver can take a two wheel drive into crazy places. A good driver with youth on their side can get stuck in crazy places.
From what I read, the rule says 8 inches is high clearance. But I agree with the intention of this rule. There’s a lot of videos of Subaru’s with CVT’s and a crawl ratio of 12:1, where they’re at stall speed on the torque converter and they can’t even spin their tires on a challenging rock surface. They are unnecessarily stuck because of a lack of low range. The flip side is that not all awd and 4wd vehicles are equal. For example, the ford maverick tremor awd with locking rear differential, 9.5 inches ground clearance and 65 series falken wildpeak all terrain tires is going to outperform a Range Rover sport 4x4 on its stock 21” wheels and all season 50 series tires. The current rules are too arbitrary.
The Lack of low gear is not the CVT issue. The cars cut power while there is stall left on the torque converter, and they do it on the wilderness too at a lower RPM (those have 4.44 instead of 4.11 or 3.9 diffs.) The issue is CVT reliability/fragility and having to protect them from shock if they suddenly move with traction.
The ATS AWD system can also not drive the rear without slip, so not being able to break a wheel free really kills them on rocks or going up hill with traction.
Law is a blunt instrument. But subjective rules would be worse. I would prefer the rule that says that creating unnecessary trail damage or road blockage is illegal. Education and prominent posting of the number to call for an off-road tow, the coordinates of the closest hill or mountain with known good cell service, and the current minimum tow charge from the trailhead (mileage down the trail subject to additional tariff).
Hey Roman, Melissa here, your favorite BLM film monitor in Moab. We just did the Medano Pass in Great Sand dunes national Park. They actually have a page that makes a good attempt to describe the difference between 4WD and AWD. It may not be 100% accurate, but we had not seen this kind of information before on a park service page. Anyway, check it out and it might be some additional food for thought. Hugs to Tommy!
Stuck in mud isn’t typically helped by selecting low range..
This trail isn’t muddy. It is rock. And if you read the comments people say things like “we drive a 3500 HD and we walked the last couple of miles to prevent damage to the vehicle” or “we took our stock JL sport to the end. as a Subaru owner as well, I can say this trail is not subaruable”.
@@larzlarz1140 😂😂👍🏼👍🏼
@@larzlarz1140 😂Subaruable! I like that one. I used to out Subaru the Subaru with a 1982 Volkswagen Rabbit. Now, I own an S model and an L model Subaru... the Rabbit is hibernating next to my house with only 46k original miles on it.
Knowing how to operate your vehicle is the key to getting unstuck. Having a wheel locker is crucial in getting out of a sticky situation without it. Your dead in the mud. Having the right set of tires for the terrain plays n important role of not getting stuck.
Could be it was mired in the mud so bad the oversized tires couldnt turn in high range, need the low range torque in the nasty stuff.
The fine comes from calling out a wrecker. Also you normally can't take anything offroad in national parks, usually thats allowed on BLM/National Forest land. I kind of don't like National Parks because they're super restrictive, overcrowded, tourist traps.
Little disappointed that instead of actually going over the difference between AWD and a 4x4, the hosts chose to land on “low range”. Yet didn’t go over a transfer case. Meanwhile in a recent review, they covered the “fake low range” on things like Jeep renegades.
On the trails they are discussing, the vehicles are more torque limited than traction limited, thus why a low range is needed to prevent getting stuck. On top of that, having an AWD with manually fully locking center diff and a real low range is effectively the same as 4LO.
Tour guide here, I know the tow company call-out fee for the White Pockets road (Vermillion Cliffs NM) is $1k (that's the starting point). My employer absolutely forbids us from attempting to extract any vehicles not belonging to us. I make sure they have water and have contacted assistance and can I get around them.
With these "lifestyle" vehicles as you called them, becoming so popular I think the pard service needs to make 3 categories. Street only vehicles, Soft roaders or Lifestyle AWD, and High clearance 4x4. List a minimum clearance, any other requirements like LSD, recovery hoos, skid plates, Crawl gear, tire ratings. They can even change the trail rating like the fire hazard sign based on recent weather. Even then people can argue edge cases but pointing these lifestyle vehicles to a better option trail is going to work better than just saying 4x4 High clearance only.
Naa, don't over-complicate it. Most officers will let common sense prevail, and use common sense themselves. Let them enforce to their liking. Sure there are a few jerks out there who will abuse their power but that will be a problem no matter what the regulations are.
As mentioned in this video, part-time 4WD systems typically have low-range gearing that AWD vehicles usually lack. But many modern transmissions have extremely low (>4:1) gearing in both 1st gear & reverse, which results in close to the same overall gear reduction as an older pickup truck in 1st gear with low range selected in the T-Case.
my Outback Wilderness would have no issue on that trail but I understand why they want to limit use. Getting stuck is dangerous and impactful to the environment.
I agree that this is a can of worms. Leaving it up to the ranger is a bad idea. Who is to determine what the ranger's qualifications are? You could get some newbie that just transferred from a city with zero off road experience.
You also can't just look up vehicle specs and go off that. For example, I used to own an Jeep WJ which is AWD but with a low range. It also had a 4" lift with front and rear D44's with OX lockers, 4.56 gears on 33's. The factory specs would say it has lower ground clearance and is AWD so an inexperienced or unknowledgeable ranger might say it can't go when in fact, it is just as capable as a Rubicon Wrangler.
You are also correct in that driver experience is a big factor. As someone that has been wheeling since the early '70s and has wheeled all over the country, I'd venture that I can run trails better in a less capable vehicle than that city boy that just bought a brand new Rubi and has never even driven on a dirt road before.
This is a bad policy. Leaving the decision as to who can or can not run a trail to the ranger sounds like a recipe for a discrimination law suit. "The ranger didn't let me run this trail because I'm (fill in the chosen victim class)". Imagine if a ranger told you that you can't hike a particular trail because you are not wearing the proper foot gear or your walking stick wasn't the right size!
The low range argument would eliminate some of the newer GM trucks since they decided to make low range an option
For the older folks watching this you may remember this famous comment from a us senate hearing “I know it when I see it “. Most vehicles sold today are really not for off-roading, they have the appearance of a rugged capable vehicle but are not. I’m not sure how anyone, let alone the government would ever classify a vehicles capabilities, so how about everyone just be quiet, because what’s really easy for the government to do is shut down trails. I know a capable vehicle when I see it, so if you’re not sure what you’re vehicle is capable of just don’t go there.
I use a lifted FJ Cruiser on 33" tires and I can say for fact those rules are needed. It's dangerous for you and your family and friends to take an ill equipped vehicle on the trails in the name of fun. As soon as you kill someone you love you'll realize it was for nothing. If you can buy something used you can build into an amazing off-road vehicle and just keep the fun safe.
Whoa, whoa, whoa! Whoa. So you're saying my CR-V isn't invincible?!
The difference between an all wheel drive and a 4 wheel drive is a locking transfer case instead of a (limited slip
on-locking) center differential. A vehicle with a center differential that DOES NOT lock up is NOT a 4 wheel drive, even if it has a low\granny gear to increase torque.
Alternatively, a shitbox that's guaranteed to throw a drive shaft at the first rock is also not a 4x4 truck.
@@Yugemostechnically, it’s 4x4 up until it throws the driveshaft, then it’s a 0x4.
If they have the right to charge 6 years of imprisonment then do it. I want to see it tried in court
Many "4x4" vehicles have open differentials, not even limited slip. An AWD system with decent torque vectoring may be more off-road capable depending on other factors. It's not a simple answer as to what is truly capable of severe off-roading. Or what about a "4x4" bro-dozer that's been lifted and put on those stupid big rims and rubber band tires. It's low range, high clearance, sure, but off-road capable, heck no.
Theres been a long standing saying about the National Park Service for at least 25 years. “Leave for Vacation, come back on probation”
Most trails are fairly easy for about 90% of their length. It is the 10% of the length of the trail with obstacles that will hang up most AWD vehicles and even some 4wd vehicles. I think the Park Service can make their own determination as to which trails are off limits to AWD/crossover type vehicles. Post signs that state: "This trail is open ONLY to vehicles with high clearance, (9" at lowest point min.), 4WD with low range gearing, and aggressive tread all terrain tires, otherwise you will be fined $ X.00 and or arrested." On more difficult trails they should even limit it to vehicles with a minimum of a rear locking differential. Park Rangers are the law enforcement in the National Park system....their house, their rules.
One thing that I find particularly funny are the advertisements for these types of vehicles. They show the driver putting the car into some awd or whatever to go down a dirt road to buy vegetables
or splashing through a shallow hard bottom creek. People think "Hey, I can buy one of these and go offroading with the guys or take some local forest service or park service trail leading to a river or lake. The problem is, they can't.
I can’t take my dog on a hike in a national park. I might not like the rule, but that’s the rule. There’s plenty of other places to take my dog. Now substitute Subaru for dog and have fun elsewhere.
I hate the dog rule
@@lloydswartz7354 the dog rule is good and protects wildlife.
You actually reminded me of a Subaru Crosstrek TV ad where they're having fun in a very large park, like dogs in an off-leash park. 🤣
I say take the dog. Screw them.
In fact, my grand-niece can't fly her beloved unicorn kite in many national parks. Kites are banned in a lot of parks.
Whether the unprepared should or shouldn't go.....
Does anyone remember when the US was actually free? That land belongs to the public. Everyone.
Ripe for a legal challenge. Has four wheel drive vehicle been precisely defined? Technically all four wheels of a Subaru “drive”. Has high clearance been defined? Is there an exact height? From where is it measured? What if the vehicle is modified with larger tires or suspension lift? Is the ranger crawling under with a ruler?
8" is the height I've seen. And that is to the lowest point, which could be diffs or any suspension linkage. And I doubt they will enforce it with a ruler, but most people can see when a vehicle definitely doesn't have that amount of clearance
Very interesting discussion. As a Certified Old Person, who has gone from my trusty old Cherokee to a Renegade Trailhawk (with Falken Wildpeaks, and a full set of 4 traction boards, a full size spare, etc.), I don't fool myself into thinking that my Renegade can do what my old Cherokee could do, or what my cousin's old Wrangler could do when she was brave enough to let me borrow it. An early clue was finding out that the system would shriek at me if I even aired down below 24 psi. But it's awesome for reasonable forest roads or sandy desert roads. If the NPS says that a particular trail is off limits for me and my Renegade, I listen to them.
I blame the auto manufacturers with commercials that lie to consumers by advertising that they can drive (AWD) vehicles “anywhere”.
Me too, absolutely.
I love seeing small cars shown on top of mountains without a trail going up to it; they must have pushed it up that mountain.
Naaah! ALL WHEEL capability is what I see. Sales people? Sounds exactly like them. In my travels, all wheel cars are used extensively on harsh slippery winter surfaces often mounting special snow/ice tires. Many winter people use two sets of tires. Summer/winter. Alaska, where I have family are really big into this usage. Subarus are very popular for reliability issues as well.
Fuel cost are also crazy expensive
So, I am an American but only returned to the USA in 2022. It would seem to me the Supreme Court throwing out the Chevron agreement would mean that the Park Service could NOT issue such rulings based upon the vehicle driven. As I understand it, they can say, NOBODY can drive their vehicles here or anyone can. They cannot make judgments on which vehicles. Am I misunderstanding?
You mis-understand the overturning of the Chevron rule. It doesn't say that Agencies can't make rules. It says that Agency's rulings as to what a law means do not have to be taken as the equivalent of the legislative law by the courts. They can still make regulatory rules using their best judgement, but now courts do not have to accept those judgements without consideration of counter arguments.
The Government should stay out of it.
The trails are on government land. There is nothing to "stay out of."
@@buckhorncortezit’s PUBLIC LAND
OK, if the government should stay out of it, you shouldn’t expect any rescue from any government sourced agency to help you if you get stuck
What a weird comment
@@tedecker3792 have you studied your picture, Ted? It’s the epitome of weird.
The Forest Service probably spends a lot of money and resources rescuing AWD vehicles.
I love this. Finally, people that differentiate lifted hatchbacks from true SUVs. I wish there was more body on frame, rear solid axle and 2 speed transfer case SUVs.
better yet just ban everyone and/or put fees on every trail.
Same. And ones that can tow too. The 4Runner, Bronco and Wrangler can’t really tow that well. The Lexus GX and 200 series Land Cruiser/Lexus LX can but the prices are pretty high
In the reddit thread it was pointed out "high clearance" was defined as 8inches of clearance which the Subaru CrossTrek (even the non "Wildress" version) has a more than 8 inch clearance. From the thread it focused more on it not having a high and low range capability. They claim AWD isn't 4x4 because you can't put it into low range.
just throwing this out there, but doesn't the TRX and new RHO use an AWD system and not a conventional system?
Still has a low range. My 21 Bronco has an Automatic 4WD setting which is intended for on road semi slippery situations like rain light slow etc. But like many other proper 4wd vehicles with an AWD setting I also have the ability to put the Bronco into 2wd 4Hi and 4 LO. That's the difference.
@@silverspec ya, I’m familiar with the ford products. Also know the trx doesn’t do 2wd. So kind of a grey area there. Obviously it’s can do well. I know that. But drive train rules just don’t always make sense.
@@KingLuis1985My LX570 and GX460 can’t run in 2wd but are still considered 4wd because both can lock the axles together.
From Car and Driver:
“The Ram 1500 TRX uses a BorgWarner 48-13 full-time active transfer case with a 2.64:1 low range”
This is a fully locking transfer case (not an AWD differential), similar to Ford, with 4WD Auto, 4WD HI, and 4WD Low. It just never disengages, so it lacks 2WD.
@@Cloud30000 The Raptor, F150 tremor and ai believe the Bronco tcases lock despite having 4Auto
Frustating for me, as someone who frequently works in national forests/parks... because its never the awd guys who are the problem. The awd'ers know their limitations and if they dont think they can make it, they dont try.
Its always the dudes in tacomas, 4runners, and jeeps who are coming off the trails broken and busted, asking me for a campsite or somewhere to go while they wait for someone to come pick them up or for a part to get ordered. Cv joints; busted transfer cases, broken axles, cracked oil pans, leaking radiators. Never ends. 😢
Sooo . . .
I have a 2015 Porsche Cayenne Diesel with a transfer case w/low range. By these new “rules” I’d be fined.
But . . .
I’ve installed 32” BFG KO2’s, added a swing-out tire carrier to carry a 5th tire, added a winch plate with recovery points, added a 2” lift, and added full underbody skid plates and rock rails. Humm ???
I go out with Jeep lifted JK’s, Gladiators, etc when doing tougher trails. Yes I lift wheels due to stock suspension travel but have yet to needed assistance getting out of a problem. I have experienced my vehicle issuing a “hot gear box” warning after extremely hard rock crawling. I had to wait for the temperature to come back down (5 minutes) before getting full power. My friends say the trails we’ve been on together are “Porsche Rated”, not Jeep Trail Rated.
BTW, I had a 2010 Jeep JK and greatly prefer the Cayenne’s comfort and great fuel economy!
Americant Citizens love tyranny
the rules are:
"A Jeep, sport utility vehicle (SUV), or truck type with at least 15-inch tire rims and at least eight inches of clearance from the lowest point of the frame, body, suspension, or differential to the ground. Four wheel drive vehicles have a driveshaft that can directly power each wheel at the same time and a transfer case that can shift between powering two wheel or four wheels in low or high gear. All wheel drive (AWD) vehicles do not meet this definition."
If you meet this, you're fine.
Had a guy on our trip to Death Valley , from Ballarat up through the canyon over Mengel Pass, he had the Porsche Cayenne gas, with lift and BFG’s….His tires were spinning out a lot……and some grinding on some parts of the trail, but he made it. Ripped out some side rails and some underneath damage too.
I received a notification from my over-landing club that my vehicle will NOT be allowed to participate in future club events. So at this point in time I’m done!!!😡
@@ScramblinJim Sorry to hear that! I drive a Defender,,,,very comfortable and very capable…..it’s got a 1.5 suspension lift with BFG’s , something to consider if your looking for comfort and I can get 23mpg on the highway. All the Best!
My new Gladiator doesn’t have any locker differential. However I know a trick I use on many vehicles including folk lifts. That when a tire spins on one side I slowly apply the emergency brake that equalized the rear wheels and help continue. Every time it has worked. Especially if you add two independent levers to control each side.
If it doesnt have low range. Its not suitable. Simple really.
I mean with some 8-10 speed transmissions the first gear is short enough to be a crawl gear is a crawl gear tires are probably the biggest problem
I think that they should create a simple test. Minimum cross articulation, clearance, approach and departure angle. Provide a test equipment at trail head.
Regardless of the standards they settle on, I definitely don't like the standard association of misdemeanors, probation, and prison sentences for what should essentially be considered infractions (i.e., traffic violations). We've already seen cases where Park Services have abused their power and prosecutors have attempted to send people to prison for what should have been a simple ticket due to a miscommunication.
its for if you kill someone
@@JogBird If you say so, but they literally tried to throw a hiker in prison because he camped 200 feet on the wrong side of a line after following a Ranger's instructions. So it's definitely being abused.
Sorry guys, but a low range gearset is NOT the difference between AWD and 4WD. The difference between the 2 is the ability to lock the front and rear axles together and distribute power equally to the 2. The flip side is vehicles like the Volkswagen Amarok are very capable vehicles off road, however they dont have a low range gearset in the transfer case. It is all down to the gearing in the auto transmission.
This should not be confused with vehicle capability, having 4WD alone doesnt make a vehicle suitable for some of the tracks described. Things like ground clearance etc is still a requirement, but its also a slightly different conversation.
You may say to yourself that if I get stuck then its my problem, WELL NO as a retired Law Enforcement officer with 40 years of service, SOMEONE has to come and save you and jeopardize their safety, think about that, thanks great video
Active LEO here - our vehicles are also standard Tahoes and such, and none of the other services (including Fire, EMS, etc.) really have dedicated off-road rigs. If you get yourself stranded in the middle of nowhere, help is not going to be there anytime soon.
Locking differentials or some kind of torque transfer mechanism is more important than a low range. I would take a lifted crosstrek over a 4wd pickup with open differentials on most trails.
I have taken Volvos, lifted and stock height, up many serious trails that would surprise people. I mostly use my 4x4 truck now but I really think that clearance and tires are the most important thing for these roads. I had A/T-S tires on my old XC70 and my current Volvos run All Weather Nokians that are designed for Scandinavian back roads. I could probably make it 80 or 90% of the harder trails that people might take a Tacoma TRD or Frontier Pro-4X. You don't need low range with modern AWD systems and turbocharged engines. Electric high clearance vehicles are in the same boat. I just hope they update the laws with modern technology in mind. This isn't the 1960s, not everything need to have part time 4WD, a transfer case, or low range to be safe off road.
85 Volvo GL wagon owner here (Well it's my wife's car), little bugger keeps up with those hi-speed rigs on the freeway in Montanna and has yet to be stuck during wintertime snow out here, and never been pulled from a trail, (well I mean gravel side of the road). Anyways, one of these days I'm headed for Moab and you better watch me on the trails! Volvo's rock!
This is what I’ve been saying these guys make these blanket statement laws based on outdated knowledge. Tires are usually the bottleneck on these modern awd cars and going to prison for this is absolutely insane
"Real" 4x4 and higher clearance lets you get a little further in before getting stuck. Avoiding getting stuck is more up to the driver I would say. If you run your car off the highway your insurance would pay the rescue, why not a obligatory separate offroad insurance?
The law should be stated with specific technical requirements. Failing that is is much too broad, ill defined and represents the common malfunction of a bureaucracy. There should never be a punishment where no harm or expense to the public took place. No different to me of a highway traffic enforcement being a no-cost warning, not a ticket with a fine. Government extracting money from a Citizen's pocket for zero impact to the public good is to me an outrage and a symptom of what's wrong with our citizen-government.
About technical specs there is certainly a difference between AWD and 4WD. Problem is that stock 4WD and stock AWD models, model by model, can have surprising numbers for clearances. As such the NPS should be precise in their regulations. State minimum clearances, tire specs, suspension travel, need for roll cage, having a low range, etc. Not doing so puts us again in the miserable area of being subject to a bureaucrats whims as to what the rules mean for one citizen or another.
Imo, the law is deliberately vague about what qualifies. There was a guy who drove over Hells revenge in a Crown Vic without issue! There are plenty of AWD vehicles that a plenty competent offroad, and plenty of questionable 50 year old lifted jeeps that pose a hazard to themselves and others. I think the park rangers should just fine everyone who needs a rescue, and leave everyone else alone regardless of what they are driving. The "low range" qualifier is silly as most manual transmission cars are going to just fine in first gear as a " low range" vehicle. Similarly, new electric and computer controlled brake cars make previously inaccessible trails completely doable by historically unfavorable vehicles.
Just to clarify, this isn't a law. This is a rule. A rule that was made by government agency, and now thanks to to Loper Bright - you can now challenge federal agency's "rules that count as laws" in court.
On point. Rules made by unelected bureaucrats.
The difference between AWD and 4wd is basically that typically, part time 4wd will have a locked center differential.
But it's so pedantic...
So my Cherokee Trailhawk is technically AWD... But jeep has a commercial of them diving it oh Hells revenge. ... I'm just saying...
To your point, maybe a better rule would be to list a minimum crawl ratio... Let's say 25:1 , etc.
I would say some minimum approach departure breakover , plus some minimum clearance , plus some minimum crawl ratio... Probably 25:1 or better.
Dang, I was thinking of taking my all wheel drive Taurus off road 😅
According to the supreme court ruling recently. The rule must be specific in the law and can not be made up by the agency.
it is specific:
"A Jeep, sport utility vehicle (SUV), or truck type with at least 15-inch tire rims and at least eight inches of clearance from the lowest point of the frame, body, suspension, or differential to the ground. Four wheel drive vehicles have a driveshaft that can directly power each wheel at the same time and a transfer case that can shift between powering two wheel or four wheels in low or high gear. All wheel drive (AWD) vehicles do not meet this definition."
The first Tremors movie mentioned a "Jeep trail", where the locals warn that you need serious 4x4 to go on it. That kind of baseline should be obvious to people.
Even before i saw the type of car the dude had, i knew it was a Subaru driver LMAO
why isn't anyone getting angry that there is a law proposed that could potentially jail you for not having the right vehicle off road? if I try to drive my ford fiesta up pikes peak and get stuck, why does the government get to put me in jail for that?
I wonder if this CrossTrek was a Wilderness model.
I don't know that it matters. It's still an AWD vehicle with no low-range and a CVT.
@@jgalleg4 It probably wouldn't make a difference to the government, but the Wilderness model has off-road-ish tires and a slight suspension lift. If these people drove the standard model, they're even more crazy.
@@ml9867 I own a 6MT Crosstrek with off-road tires myself, and while it’s certainly more capable than a lot of cars, it is nowhere near as capable as a true 4x4. The Wilderness Crosstrek is only about 0.5” higher than the normal one, which has 8.7” of clearance. That’s not really a meaningful difference.
@@jgalleg4 Cool, yeah I agree. I wish I had any Subaru Wilderness model. I was just curious if those people thought they could conquer the Baja 1000 with it.
I just bought some taller all-weather tires for my 2wd vehicle that will be awesome in the winter compared to the all-season junk I've always had. They're the same type that are on the Mustang Mach-E Rally. It should also be easier for me to get in and out of the car, with it being like an inch taller.
I don’t have a Subaru crosstrek wilderness. Have a 4Runner, but have seen videos where it can outperform some 4WD vehicles in some off-road situation’s
Good for NPS taxpayers should pay for recovering these idiots
F#€k the park service. They’ve been tanking for the last twenty years anyways.
I have both a full size 4wd and a Subaru. Nobody has any reason to tell me where my modified Outback can and can not go. If that’s the case I never would get all the surprised looks from the Jeep guys who think you need lockers and 40” tires to get up to the passes they feel like they have to “conquer” 🤣🤣🤣
95% of off-roading is knowing your limits and your vehicles limits.
Wow, you are tough and such a rebel. Its Government land and will do as they say.
If the vehicle has 4 wheels, awd is 4wd. If the park rangers want low range 4wd only, the sign should specify. The cybertruck is awd
Isn't it funny how Subaru won't let you review their new vehicles because they can't make it through the TFL offroad test 😅
Seems like the government also knows Subaru don't work OFFROAD and they don't want to have to tow them out. 😂
Makes sense, makes perfect sense. 🤣
That's not why Subaru won't let them test. Go watch Driving Sports TV if you want to see Subaru off-road reviews.
@TFL showed that subbie's cvts keep overheating on regular offroad testing trails, true reason why Subura was upset at them and revoked their Subaru press pass. 😅
GM got rid of the 2speed transfer case in all except for the trail boss models of their trucks and apparently the 1st gear in that 10speed is low enough. The distinction between awd and 4wd is mostly irrelevant now.
Hahah😂, AWD crossover owners are not happy now
My Mazda CX-30 doesn't drive on anything worse than gravel roads. If I was planning to drive off-road I would have bought a truck, not a car.
I'm sure most of them are fine, they only bought AWD vehicles for traction on snowy roads when the need arises.
No, I'm not, because most of the time those warnings just mean "have some clearance and a brain"
It's very rare that I can't get up a road because my traction is a problem. Drawing this line in the sand for what amounts to a clearance issue is disappointing (I looked into this more a few days ago and the issue was clearance)
There IS an argument for super loose and articulated roads where people might be causing erosion by relying on traction control due to AWD and unibody making for a loss of traction, and therefore chewing the ground up more. But they don't make that argument, so it seems just lazy tbh
Also yeah just charge people an arm and a leg for rescue. Let people be responsible for themselves and make intelligent decisions
I wouldn't be happy about this even if I owned the most capably built off road vehicle in the world. This is a bad idea throughout. There is endless nuance and subjectivity as to what makes a vehicle off road worthy enough. Even if they _did_ have a clear set of rules defined, like Roman said, it doesn't take skill level into account. This is a massive can of worms and will inevitably lead to prejudice.
I just take my truck, pump the tires to +10% psi, stick it in 2wd and go baha
ally racing down the trail. Nothing like spinning tires around every corner for a little thrill ride!
I think the key words there might be "high clearance" but they are very specific about four-wheel drive as well. AWD is typically found in vehicles meant for urban environments or light off-road use where you might encounter rain, snow, or light mud - but are not intended for rock crawling or overcoming serious obstacles.
Sounds like a $100,000 jeep got upset that a stock base model Crosstrek outperformed him.
Or the 1 hour trail trip turned into a 4 hour nightmare stuck behind a crosstrek getting stuck on every pebble. No one writing in would admit to their smart car not making it up the 8/10 rated trail, regardless of the truth.
The "collateral forfeiture" and $5,000.00 fine tell you everything you need to know about this. It's not about safety, it's a money grab.
If you wanna go off road just bite the bullet and get a truck or BOF suv. Plenty of people who dont even off-road own these types of vehicles (myself included) they’re really not that bad to live with every day. Dont fool yourself into believing that your CVT Subaru “wilderness” is gonna cut it when the going actually gets tough.
Define "tough". I don't think any crossover should be on high traffic 4x4 trails, BUT the wilderness editions are likely the best awd crossovers to get away with it in. Those and the tremor mavericks.
@@br9760and a Sprinter is the best van to race at Daytona, but that doesn’t mean it’s qualified to do so
Andre dressed for this segment. Roman looking like he was on his way to happy hour.
It's 5 o'clock somewhere!
Big brother at its finest.
I love revving my V8 custom exhaust and spinning the tires when I leave for work, but I got a call from the police saying I can’t do that at 4 am anymore. Big brother is getting ridiculous!
What you in prison for? Driving a Subaru. This is one of those rules that would be difficult to prosecute.
I witnessed a farmer in my county get 40 years for running over a Kangaroo Rat with his tractor on HIS field! You are nuts dude thinking even questioning how much deep shit one can suddenly become mired in… Its real.
Without being a lesbian 😂
More government intervention.
It's not the quantity of government intervention that matters so much as the quality. This is low quality government intervention.
Well, they kinda run the National Parks so...